Advice needed! (Praying at work)

[Oubliette]

Hello everyone :)

I just wanted to take some advice on a really uncomfortable situation happening at work:


I recently started working at a retail store and there's a really big group of employees. We took a training about a week ago and it was clearly stated that there would be NO discussion or debates about religion, politics and all that stuff but we've already had two gatherings at different places (for voluntary work) and two different employees requested a group prayer at both gatherings.

I didn't pray or anything but it made me feel uncomfortable because they just assumed that everyone was ok with it, even the managers and supervisors joined the prayer and said a few words. Doesn't this go against what was stated in the trainings about discussing religion or whatever?

I really don't wanna make a big deal about this because I don't wanna get in trouble or anything but it's my job and I feel uncomfortable with it. I can understand that I live in a country that is Christian based but that doesn't give them the right to assume that everyone's gonna be ok with it.

How can I address this to them without creating a major conflict at work?:confused:

[bpesta22]

From an employment law perspective, this doesn't seem illegal. They aren't forcing you to pray for example. Nor (so far) have any employment decisions been based on who prays or doesn't. Plus it doesn't seem like it's creating a hostile environment.

Given they have a policy, though, you should call them on it. Who wrote the policy (is it an HR publication, or is it something specific to the training sessions)? Is there a mechanism in place for filling complaints?

But you have to weigh your absolute right to complain about this with any reaction co-employees might have (oh my god, we have a baby eating atheist working here?!??!!).

[X]

I'd say just don't participate. Don't even fake participating.
If they ask why you don't join them, say you don't believe in God.

If the people are at all decent, they will likely realize their assumption has segregated on of their own. If they are liberal Christians, they may even voluntarily stop when they realize not everybody there is Christian.

Perhaps optimistic. Especially if you live in the Bible Belt. But it's what I'd do.

[Seismosaurus]

If it were me, when they ask I'd simply say "wasn't there a rule mentioned that there would be no politics or religion?" Keep it in those terms, no matter what anybody says "so doesn't that rule stop group prayer then?"

That way you are not coming off as saying "we should not do pray"; you are simply asking for clarification of what the company policy is and coming across as somebody who wants to follow the rules.

If you don't win the day like that I'd just nod and say "great, thanks for the clarification" and then sit quietly while the rest do their thing.

Of course if you really want to throw the cat amongst the pigeons you could just say "Matthew 6.5-8 forbids public prayer. I won't defile Jesus by joining you, thanks."

[CynicalSkeptic]

If it were me, when they ask I'd simply say "wasn't there a rule mentioned that there would be no politics or religion?"

Praying isn't religious, it's just spirtual...

:boggled:

[Darth Rotor]

I recently started working at a retail store and there's a really big group of employees. We took a training about a week ago and it was clearly stated that there would be NO discussion or debates about religion, politics and all that stuff but we've already had two gatherings at different places (for voluntary work) and two different employees requested a group prayer at both gatherings.
A good response to that is to likewise request that those who wish to pray be courteous enough to those who don't so wish and respect their position.
I didn't pray or anything but it made me feel uncomfortable because they just assumed that everyone was ok with it, even the managers and supervisors joined the prayer and said a few words. Doesn't this go against what was stated in the trainings about discussing religion or whatever?
Yes. Indeed, citing the company policy, in a polite and professional manner, is a good way to underline the possible breach of company policy they are suggesting. Who writes the pay checks? (We can even delve into the Render unto Caesar if you like. :) ) The company.
I really don't wanna make a big deal about this because I don't wanna get in trouble or anything but it's my job and I feel uncomfortable with it. I can understand that I live in a country that is Christian based but that doesn't give them the right to assume that everyone's gonna be ok with it.

How can I address this to them without creating a major conflict at work?:confused:
The key is to address this is to be tactful. (Take the moral high ground, if you will.) Given their assumption, it might be worth your while to point out that you politely decline to be in a prayer group, and that on company time being respectful to one another is consistent with company policy.

IMO, folks who attempt to proselytize on the company dime are stepping across the line. Their best advertisement for their faith is in the example they set as good people.

DR

[Oubliette]

To bpesta22:

It is a HR policy. It is stated in our Employee's Manual.


I'm just afraid that if I say something about it there would be repercussions against me. :(


ETA: Thanx for all the advice. I'm fairly new to this type of situation, since I was at the other side of it once. ;)

[bpesta22]

That obviously would be illegal, but you'd have to prove it.

Do you know any of the HR folks; do any seem reasonable? Is there a way to send an anonymous complaint to them-- it's not cowardly; stranger things have happened than religious people acting wrongly to atheists.

If it gets, or could get ugly; document everything.

[Oubliette]

That obviously would be illegal, but you'd have to prove it.

Do you know any of the HR folks; do any seem reasonable? Is there a way to send an anonymous complaint to them-- it's not cowardly; stranger things have happened than religious people acting wrongly to atheists.

If it gets, or could get ugly; document everything.


Yes, I know the person who works at HR. She seems really nice and everything but she was part of the group prayer thing and I don't know if it will have any effect on it. I had my camera at both gatherings, is it ok to take pics or record the thing?

[Darth Rotor]

To bpesta22:

It is a HR policy. It is stated in our Employee's Manual.


I'm just afraid that if I say something about it there would be repercussions against me. :(


ETA: Thanx for all the advice. I'm fairly new to this type of situation, since I was at the other side of it once. ;)
If anyone gets shirty with you over this, and it's in the HR manual, I'd contact HR for assistance in defusing the issue. The rules are on your side.

Again, how you package your reliance on the HR regulation goes a long way to preempting repercussions. It's a workplace harmony thing. Since you don't want trouble, odds are your approach will be warm and courteous enough to not incite trouble. By taking the moral high ground, kill 'em with kindness, you can identify for HR who possible trouble makers might be if said suggesters choose to make an issue of it.

I hope this can be resolved simply and cleanly, since workplace drama is a bane to productivity. Don't be bullied, however. There is a time and a place for everything (courteously cite Ecclesiastes to your Christian friends if you need to make a point of this in their language), and if theses folks are attempting to do be wedgeasses about this, I don't think you should put up with this.

Advice from a Christian who is tired of some Christians setting poor examples.

DR

[Oubliette]

If anyone gets shirty with you over this, and it's in the HR manual, I'd contact HR for assistance in defusing the issue. The rules are on your side.

Again, how you package your reliance on the HR regulation goes a long way to preempting repercussions. It's a workplace harmony thing. Since you don't want trouble, odds are your approach will be warm and courteous enough to not incite trouble. By taking the moral high ground, kill 'em with kindness, you can identify for HR who possible trouble makers might be if said suggesters choose to make an issue of it.

I hope this can be resolved simply and cleanly, since workplace drama is a bane to productivity. Don't be bullied, however. There is a time and a place for everything (courteously cite Ecclesiastes to your Christian friends if you need to make a point of this in their language), and if theses folks are attempting to do be wedgeasses about this, I don't think you should put up with this.

Advice from a Christian who is tired of some Christians setting poor examples.

DR

Noted. Thanx! :)

[meg]

I'm guessing if when they called for a prayer you whipped out a small rug, faced Mecca and knelt with your face to the floor, they might rethink the whole idea.

Just a thought.

[Mister Earl]

As a military guy, this is something that is commonly dealt with. We always get visits from the Chaplain (I politely bow my head. I don't pray along with everyone else, but my objective is to worry about whatever task it was I was on, not to take attention away from the Chaplain or make a political statement) and then carry on later. I've told many that I am an atheist, and it says so on my dogtags as well. It has been a problem for me yet. I do take people to task for using the old phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes". I kindly inform them that it's because you don't dig those in sand.

[Meadmaker]

Voluntary work? Are people being paid at these voluntary work gatherings? If not, then this is simply some sort of unofficial employee club, and I doubt you could stop the activity, but if they are, then I think they would be running afoul of the HR policy, at the least. Is this store part of a chain? If so, I think the best approach would be to seek out the corporate HR office.

You asked how you could do it without creating a major conflict. I'm afraid that's impossible. Your best bet is anonymously. Your next best bet is to do it openly, hope you get fired on some other flimsy excuse, and try your luck with a religious discrimination lawsuit. This is America. You could get rich.

[bpesta22]

I don't see a problem with taping it, though if they do, they could probably ask you not to.

My only concern is to run it up some chain of command or formal complaint process before taping it ("odd that you would go to the trouble of taping it-- as if to use it against us-- when merely bringing up the issue would have resulted in us stopping the prayer sessions").

It becomes illegal when they treat you different with regards to a term or condition of employment.

It becomes a hostile work environment if a reasonable person in the same work environment as you would find the behaviors offensive (I wouldn't think a group prayer would count, unless you complained and they did it anyway to taunt you). And, the behaviors would have to be so severe or pervasive that they poisoned the work environment.

I guess the option is to weigh how bad just tolerating it makes you feel with how bad the possible backlash might be if people are ignorantly offended by atheists.

[A Christian Sceptic]

You could also just send an anonymous letter to HR.

My hunch is you're probably not the only one uncomfortable with that situation.

[Mister Earl]

I'm guessing if when they called for a prayer you whipped out a small rug, faced Mecca and knelt with your face to the floor, they might rethink the whole idea.

Just a thought.

Excellently thought, but I have a small upgrade to that:

Claim you are a Pastafarian, and your religious services require that a Beer Volcano be provided, along with a small vat of alfredo sauce.

[bpesta22]

See, a rug would be a reasonable accommodation, because the company doesn't have to spend money on it. But, have you looked into how expensive beer volcanos are lately? The employer would not be obligated to buy you one (unless maybe it was Pabst beer?).

[Mobyseven]

Is the group prayer part of your work, or part of a volunteer program organised by your work? I'm unclear on the situation here.

[Oubliette]

Voluntary work? Are people being paid at these voluntary work gatherings? If not, then this is simply some sort of unofficial employee club, and I doubt you could stop the activity, but if they are, then I think they would be running afoul of the HR policy, at the least. Is this store part of a chain? If so, I think the best approach would be to seek out the corporate HR office.

You asked how you could do it without creating a major conflict. I'm afraid that's impossible. Your best bet is anonymously. Your next best bet is to do it openly, hope you get fired on some other flimsy excuse, and try your luck with a religious discrimination lawsuit. This is America. You could get rich.


We went to do some voluntary work in name of the Company and yes, it's part of a chain.

[Foster Zygote]

In similar situations I have simply stood quietly and politely waiting for them to finish. I don't bow my head, I don't close my eyes. I stand unobtrusively with my hands behind my back. If you bring up the company policy, which you are certainly justified in doing, I would only mention it once. The real question is how others will react to your lack of participation. Hopefully they will respect you and leave it at that.

[Meadmaker]

We went to do some voluntary work in name of the Company and yes, it's part of a chain.

In those circumstances, I would think you ought not complain. I doubt you would have a legal leg to stand on.

[Oubliette]

Is the group prayer part of your work, or part of a volunteer program organised by your work? I'm unclear on the situation here.

Nope.

We went to an orphanage to do some cleaning and be with the children. There were several groups doing this at different places for 3 days (the past weekend, to be specific). For each amount of hours (I really don't remember how many) that we worked in those places, the Company would give $1,000 for the charity or place we were working at.

One of the prayers took place when we gathered at the store to set out for that place because one of the employees felt that we needed God to guide us through and so on.

The other one took place after we left the place and it was requested by a different employee, to let God guide our way back home.

Btw, there have been some other small prayers at the store, made by supervisors.

[Khonshu]

I've been to division-level meetings that included a prayer that closed with "in Jesus' name - Amen" - which is particularly disturbing since I work for the state gov't, and my entire chain of command was at the meeting (not counting the governor, who recently was on TV praying for rain). If I want to be sure & get the crappiest jobs out there, have no chance at promotion, etc. all I have to do is complain...

There are a lot of ways to make people miserable at work without making it easy to document.

[bpesta22]

I think you'd be covered, even if the work is voluntary, as it's sponsored by your er.

For example, if you get hurt off-site doing this work, I bet worker's comp would cover your injury.

[sackett]

Plenty of good advice here. I can't add to it. But I want to pick this bone:

"I can understand that I live in a country that is Christian based ...."

You live in a country currently overrun by people who believe that, but in fact the U.S. (I'm wearily certain that you live in the U.S.; makes me want to do a Jeremiah Wright) is not religiously based at all; America is a secular nation. Period. Full stop.

You have every right to march to a different drummer.

[bobcarp]

Next time they want to pray ask them if you can lead the prayer. When they say OK, get on your knees, waive your hands in the air and scream, "HEEEYYY ALA ALA ALA ALA BABA BABA BABA COMO LATTA MEGA SAWNI TAGO!". :yikes::shocked:

[Oubliette]

Plenty of good advice here. I can't add to it. But I want to pick this bone:

"I can understand that I live in a country that is Christian based ...."

You live in a country currently overrun by people who believe that, but in fact the U.S. (I'm wearily certain that you live in the U.S.; makes me want to do a Jeremiah Wright) is not religiously based at all; America is a secular nation. Period. Full stop.

You have every right to march to a different drummer.

I live in Puerto Rico and perhaps yes, the "Christian -based" thing is only because the people that run the government have those beliefs. That's actually what I meant by it. :)

[sackett]

Sorry for the double post.

[VulcanWay]

After they say "Amen" ask if they wouldn't mind taking a moment for homage to Satan. :eek:

Just kidding - it's that kind of day. Some wise advice above, though.

[Upchurch]

;3663862']Especially if you live in the Bible Belt.

Oubliette, out of my own morbid curiosity, where are you located? A state or general region is fine, if you're shy. I'm just curious if this is happening in an area that would surprise me or not.

[Oubliette]

Oubliette, out of my own morbid curiosity, where are you located? A state or general region is fine, if you're shy. I'm just curious if this is happening in an area that would surprise me or not.

Puerto Rico.

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

You could also just send an anonymous letter to HR.

My hunch is you're probably not the only one uncomfortable with that situation.
I think this is the best piece of advise given in this thread.

If an anonymous letter takes care of the situation, no one even needs to know that you were the one who had the problem with it.

[NobbyNobbs]

When they finish the prayer, say "Wait, I'm not done." Close your eyes again, bow your head, mumble a bit. If they interrupt, tell them again that you're not done. Keep this up for as long as you can. If they insist on putting a stop to it, ask them, "Are you trying to tell me that I have to conform to what prayer you think is appropriate?!"

[slingblade]

Just to let you know it could be worse, my ex holds bible study at his office every day. He owns the company.

[Madalch]

If they stop on the way out to pray, just keep walking.

[Showmeproof]

If they ask you why aren't you praying, tell them you are waiting to go home to pray to Thor and Odin. Hey, I figure if you are going to believe in a God, might as well be a kick-a$$ one like Thor :)

In all seriousness, the question you ask is difficult. On the one hand, if you tell them you don't believe in God you might be ostracized, or they might look for ways to "fire" you. That is, if your boss is a devout christian, or whatever. I would send an anonymoys letter to a district manager, divison manager, etc and see what happens.

[DrBaltar]

I would occasionally volunteer with a prayer of my own: "Dear Lord, please grant us the ability to teleport. Amen."

[Dragoonster]

You could also just send an anonymous letter to HR.

My hunch is you're probably not the only one uncomfortable with that situation.

Great advice.

I've mostly done like Foster Zygote has and just stood while they got it over with.

If you want to be a bit more obvious you could walk far away while they did it. Perhaps another or two would join you. Personally, I wouldn't care and if the others found it important to them wouldn't say anything about it (after all, the work is certainly good). But if you're really uncomfortable, I agree with the more proactive advice others have given.

[Complexity]

Sorry.

All of my advice would leave you with your dignity and without a job.

Religious people suck.

[Darth Rotor]

I would occasionally volunteer with a prayer of my own: "Dear Lord, please grant us the ability to teleport. Amen."
Can't hurt to ask. :)

[Hokulele]

I agree that the anonymous letter (or e-mail with pictures) to HR may be the best bet.

Although there was one time I was at a company picnic (I was working for them as a sub-contractor). They said grace before the food was served and after the "Amen", I chanted "Om Mani Padme Hum". Yes, I did get a few odd looks, but it did start an interesting conversation at our table. ;)

[Taffer]

When they finish, chant "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn".

[Fnord]

In those cases where my employers have made "No discussions of politics or religion" a condition of my continued employment, I have followed the rule, but only while on paid company time (that is, while I'm "on the clock") or on company property (that is, property that is owned by the company).

This means that even if I attend a company function - a retirement luncheon, for example - in a restaurant, I can legally discuss politics and religion without fear of legal reprisal.

However, in the example that you cite, it seems to me that the policy is stated only to keep the company from getting sued for religious or political harassment, and not any of its employees.

This way, if a coworker who believes (or dis-believes) in a particular candidate or deity starts trying to convert you while at work, the company can legally disavow any approval (expressed, implied, tacit, or otherwise) of your coworker's actions.

Advice (take it or leave it):

1) Update your résumé.
2) Remove all of your signs and symbols of your beliefs from your workplace.
3) Post a photocopy of your company's anti-religion / anti-politics policy where everyone can see it (highlight the relevant statements).
4) Obliquely and privately remind the offending party of company policy.
5) Be prepared for backlash.

I am sorry to say that there are fundies who believe that they are above secular rules, and that they are free to flout them at will. You will find that these people are either exceptionally valuable to the company, or that their chances for promotion and/or continued employment is about to end.

[Fnord]

When they finish, chant "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn".


No ... a simple "Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!" should suffice.

(Is it just me, or is it getting dark in here?)

[Mobyseven]

Nope.

We went to an orphanage to do some cleaning and be with the children. There were several groups doing this at different places for 3 days (the past weekend, to be specific). For each amount of hours (I really don't remember how many) that we worked in those places, the Company would give $1,000 for the charity or place we were working at.

One of the prayers took place when we gathered at the store to set out for that place because one of the employees felt that we needed God to guide us through and so on.

The other one took place after we left the place and it was requested by a different employee, to let God guide our way back home.

Btw, there have been some other small prayers at the store, made by supervisors.

Is there a way to bring attention to this anonymously?

[CurtC]

There have been a lot of what I would consider extreme reactions offered to you so far. I have a different take on it.

You have no sign that your employment is jeopardized by your non-belief. Your cow-orkers are just being a little inconsiderate. Think of yourself not as a martyr, but as an ambassador from the world of atheists to these people. Take the high road, be tolerant, lead by example. Remember that most theists think of atheists as loudmouth troublemakers and become recalcitrant when faced with this. Don't give them the opportunity to bolster their idiotic preconceptions.

At prayer time, continue to visibly not pray. Someone is bound to notice. If they ask, let them know that you are an atheist, and that the prayer makes you uncomfortable, being connected with your paycheck and all. Word will get out and we can hope that they will come to realize that they are in the wrong. That's the ideal situation anyway.

I think the thing for you to remember is that you are our ambassador to these people.