The "little child" proof of god [Archive]

Tricky

15th February 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by gabriel
We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.
Excellent responses by all, but I'd like to add one.

When a parent punishes a child, the parent usually tries to explain to the child why it is being punished (at least good[ parents do :D). Admittedly, the child may not accept or understand the reasons, but usually, as the child grows and learns, he begins to understand the reasons, even if he rejects them. Also, good parents at least try to protect their child from hazards.

God, on the other, hand, gives us no clues. We have oodles of sources telling us what God thinks, but no direct word from the big guy himself. A person can study the ways of God all their life and still wind up "punished" for something he had no idea was wrong. And certainly He does nothing at all to make this a "child safe" world for his "children".

Thus the "God as a parent" scenario really portrays "God as a really bad parent".

Franko

15th February 2003, 02:09 PM

Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods.

Maybe that's the point of the little child analogy ... that regardless of how carefully god planned it, and regardless of how Omnibenevolent She actually is, we (at least some of us) were Destined to misperceive the situation, and see Her as vengeful and evil ... or perhaps as non-existent?

evildave

15th February 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by pgwenthold

Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods.

Such a weenie god they have.

Such a weenie god they believe they have.

Franko

15th February 2003, 02:19 PM

Excellent responses by all, but I'd like to add one.

When a parent punishes a child, the parent usually tries to explain to the child why it is being punished (at least good[ parents do ). Admittedly, the child may not accept or understand the reasons, but usually, as the child grows and learns, he begins to understand the reasons, even if he rejects them. Also, good parents at least try to protect their child from hazards.

All of this is True with god and people living in this universe as well.

You do realize that despite their parents best efforts, some children are just Destined to grow up and become criminals – murderers, rapists?

God does the best She can. She supplies consistent honest information. If you cannot perceive the pattern in it, that how is that Her fault?

God, on the other, hand, gives us no clues.

Look around you.

What do you call TLOP? In my estimation TLOP qualifies as “a clue”, but maybe your perception just works differently?

We have oodles of sources telling us what God thinks, but no direct word from the big guy himself.

What makes you assume god is a “him”?

A person can study the ways of God all their life and still wind up "punished" for something he had no idea was wrong.

If your (15 year old) “child” urinates on the sofa while you have company over the house, and he tells you that he had no idea that urinating on the sofa was wrong, are you going to refrain from “punishing” him?

I wonder if god punishes people who claim things that they know cannot be true?

And certainly He does nothing at all to make this a "child safe" world for his "children".

Compared to where you came from?

Thus the "God as a parent" scenario really portrays "God as a really bad parent".

Only if you are a narrow minded, cynical, pessimistic little A-Theists with an a priori conclusion that things are always going to end up badly for you. With that kind of thinking you really shouldn’t be surprised if you actually get your wish one day.

15th February 2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Franko

God does the best She can.
Does this mean that the godess you worship is not all-powerfull?

evildave

15th February 2003, 03:05 PM

Poor example.

The better matching example for god as a daddy would be a daddy who has children and then abandons them all over some tiny imagined slight given by their older sibling.

What right has such a daddy to judge his children against his expectations for them when he was never there to make them clear?

He abandoned all stake when he abandoned them.

In the case of a "mommy", perhaps the better model might be abandoning a child in a dumpster and being disappointed in how it turned out.

Of course, the best model would be Barney the Dinosaur saying he doesn't wuv yoo, because we are just discussing the motivations of a fictional character, like Zeus and Thor and Baal and Osirus.

Franko

15th February 2003, 06:12 PM

gabriel:
Does this mean that the godess you worship is not all-powerfull?

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "All-Powerful" gabriel. The Logical Goddess is the Most-Powerful entity in existence, but She could not draw a 4-sided triangle (as an example).

... I think that power is reserved for the "Illogical Goddess". ;)

Franko

15th February 2003, 06:15 PM

The better matching example for god as a daddy would be a daddy who has children and then abandons them all over some tiny imagined slight given by their older sibling.

What right has such a daddy to judge his children against his expectations for them when he was never there to make them clear?

He abandoned all stake when he abandoned them.

In the case of a "mommy", perhaps the better model might be abandoning a child in a dumpster and being disappointed in how it turned out.

Of course, the best model would be Barney the Dinosaur saying he doesn't wuv yoo, because we are just discussing the motivations of a fictional character, like Zeus and Thor and Baal and Osirus.

Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished.

He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.

Tricky

15th February 2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Franko

Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished.

He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.
But in this instance, the Mommy is consistant. The child will eventually learn that urinating on the couch is something for which he will be punished.

Not so with God, or the Goddess. You can drive your car to work every day for years, and yet one day, someone else runs a red light and you are paralyzed for life. If driving a car was wrong, then why didn't the God(ess) say so the first time, or the second, or the thousandth? Inconsistant punishment is the mark of a bad parent. And why are some people punished for this behavior and others not? Does the God/Goddess love some of her children more than others?

A God or parent who punishes without reason or consistancy is simply a bad God/parent.

Franko

15th February 2003, 06:41 PM

But in this instance, the Mommy is consistant. The child will eventually learn that urinating on the couch is something for which he will be punished.

Not so with God, or the Goddess. You can drive your car to work every day for years, and yet one day, someone else runs a red light and you are paralyzed for life. If driving a car was wrong, then why didn't the God(ess) say so the first time, or the second, or the thousandth?

Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet? Was that your mother’s fault? Was that an example of “inconsistent punishment/parenting” on Her part, or was that just your sister being her crazy-ass self?

A God or parent who punishes without reason or consistancy is simply a bad God/parent.

Start blaming god for all your troubles, and the next thing you know you’ll be an A-Theist.

Tricky

15th February 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Franko
Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet?
That didn't actually happen to me. Perhaps you are thinking of your own childhood. It might explain some things.

Was that your mother’s fault? Was that an example of “inconsistent punishment/parenting” on Her part, or was that just your sister being her crazy-ass self?
See, that's the thing. Not everybody believes that everything bad that happens is "punishment". If it was The Godess forcing your sister to hit you with the frying pan for no reason, then that is a very bad goddess.

Start blaming god for all your troubles, and the next thing you know you’ll be an A-Theist.
Yet you say Fate is responsible for everything. Welcome to the ranks of A-Theist, Franko. So far, you are the only one to fit the description.

Your punishment/reward belief can never be reconciled with the theodicy problem.

I say that many things are nobody's fault, but simply the random nature of the universe.

Franko

15th February 2003, 11:03 PM

That didn't actually happen to me. Perhaps you are thinking of your own childhood. It might explain some things.

Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters?

See, that's the thing. Not everybody believes that everything bad that happens is "punishment". If it was The Godess forcing your sister to hit you with the frying pan for no reason, then that is a very bad goddess.

Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party.

Isn’t that how your logic works?

Your punishment/reward belief can never be reconciled with the theodicy problem.

Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul on that?

If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial?

I say that many things are nobody's fault, but simply the random nature of the universe.

Now you are starting to sound like a Fatalist!

Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random.

Bozotheda

15th February 2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by gabriel
Hi Stimpi, thanks fro answer me.

I understand your point.
This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask".
Am I right?

The argument is based on the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. Put more simply; it is not an argument, it is an implicit confession that there is no argument. They could be right, of course, but the argument is worthless as support of any position in a debate because it could be used in other forms to argue for the contrary.

evildave

16th February 2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Franko

Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished.

He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.

Well, here is an example of a mommy who never having delivered a correction before EVER, and in face leaving her children utterly unsupervised for all their lives, shows up one day and discovers that her kids inexplicably do not behave just as she'd like.

What a moron your goddess is.

Then we have the pan example. Mommy never was there to correct her children, so they were violent, too.

As a matter of fact, we have a good biblical example of this. Adam and Eve must have learned their parenting skills from God. God only loved the BLOOD sacrifices of Able, and showed clear preference for murdering animals. Cain finally performs a proper blood sacrifice, according to God's example, and gets in trouble. Probably for not putting his brother's body on the altar for God to feast on, as opposed to burying him in the ground as he did. Waste of a perfectly good sacrifice.

Franko

16th February 2003, 09:00 AM

Well, here is an example of a mommy who never having delivered a correction before EVER, and in face leaving her children utterly unsupervised for all their lives, shows up one day and discovers that her kids inexplicably do not behave just as she'd like.

What a moron your goddess is.

You think this post is coming directly from me? It’s being relayed to You by the LG herself. She’s like the server, You are like a node on the server. You aren’t in direct contact with any other nodes, you are only in contact with Her. If you aren’t perceiving the reality of the situation, then that doesn’t exactly make Her the “moron”.

Then we have the pan example. Mommy never was there to correct her children, so they were violent, too.

Maybe it’s not that God has trouble understanding morons, maybe morons have trouble understanding God?

As a matter of fact, we have a good biblical example of this. Adam and Eve must have learned their parenting skills from God. God only loved the BLOOD sacrifices of Able, and showed clear preference for murdering animals. Cain finally performs a proper blood sacrifice, according to God's example, and gets in trouble. Probably for not putting his brother's body on the altar for God to feast on, as opposed to burying him in the ground as he did. Waste of a perfectly good sacrifice.

Actually that whole Genesis story isn’t nearly as far from the mark as you might imagine. Once the Era of Individuality began it was only a matter of Time until one Graviton annihilated another. Unless there was something inherent in reality that prevented a Graviton from being annihilated, of course that might prevent you from having Individuality in the first place …

evildave

16th February 2003, 09:08 AM

From Goddess's server to Franko's mouth? I love it.

Yahzi

16th February 2003, 12:19 PM

We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed
Ever notice how they follow this up by telling you all about God?

If we can't understand God, then that is it: the only comment you can make about God is that you can't make comments about him.

If his apparent acts of evil can be explained away by unknown mechanisms, then so can his apparent acts of good. If god is unknowable, we cannot know that he is good any more than we can know he is evil.

The classic preacher line... "God's plan is incomprehensible, and I'm here to tell you your part in it."

Also, the idea that we have figured out - on our own - how stars shine and grass grows seems to indicated that, unlike children or dogs, we can in fact understand pretty much anything. As long as it is understandable. Asserting that God is above our understanding is in effect asserting that he is above any possible understanding... which leads you back to wondering why people keep talking about something they have already stated cannot be meaningfully talked about.

Franko

16th February 2003, 02:00 PM

From Goddess's server to Franko's mouth? I love it.

Ohh, you are right evildavey, you always are.

Even Yatzi will tell you his consciousness is just an illusion, and you just know that "I" am going to end up being a figment of your imagination. The Universe is all in your head.

Loki

16th February 2003, 02:36 PM

Franko,

Once the Era of Individuality began ...
Ohh... the EoI! We have a new term in the lexicon - guess you've been working on your cosmology over the weekend!

Franko

16th February 2003, 02:44 PM

Ohh Loki, I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now. Just ask around.

Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing. You don't get one without the other.

Loki

16th February 2003, 03:08 PM

Franko,

I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now...
Truth in advertising - good for you!

Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing.
Yes, and now that 'thing' has a name - the "Era of Individuality". I'm excited...

Tricky

16th February 2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Loki
Yes, and now that 'thing' has a name - the "Era of Individuality". I'm excited...
Me too. To quote Bill Murray from Groudhog Day, "Anything different is good."

Franko

16th February 2003, 04:00 PM

I'm glad you two are finally showing some signs of stirring from your slumbers. I guess if this trend continues in a few months you will be claiming that you had been Fatalist all along, and that you never claimed to have “free will”?

Loki, it is to bad that you had to be reduced to one of Tricky's pathetic little toadies in the process ...

Aardvark_DK

16th February 2003, 04:17 PM

Franko

16th February 2003, 04:28 PM

Been reading a bit about medieval times lately, and on that note I'd like to ask you, Franko (since you keep so much in touch with God), what humanity was supposed to learn from the Black Death. What was that lesson all about? I'm just curious.

The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain.

metaphorically speaking ...

Tricky

16th February 2003, 04:40 PM

Okay, getting back on topic here. (And I don't have any toadies, Franko. Okay, one, but you have never identified it correctly.)Originally posted by Franko
Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters?
Two brothers and two sisters. We argued a lot, but never hit each other with skillets.
Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party.
Our upbringing was influenced by a number of people, including my mother, father and others. I don't hold Mom responsible for any of the things me or my siblings did. Blame laying is a very childish thing to do. I accept responsibility for my actions. My sibllings do likewise.

Although I was occasionally punished by my parents, they never did so randomly and I was always told (at great length) why I was being punished. In fact, I dreaded a lecture more than a spanking. :D "God the Parent" is not like this. He/She never explains anything. Sometimes a human will make a weak attempt to do so, but lots of times they are reduced to saying "Its God's will" in lieu of an explanation. Their God sounds like an abusive parent.

Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul on that?
Sure. As soon as you show me evidence that I have an immortal soul.

If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial?
I believe I am making the correct wager. I do not waste the only life I am sure of chasing a chimera. You, on the other hand, are betting on one conception of God. If you are wrong and the real God hates Logical Deists, well then your soul is just as much in peril as mine. Plus, you have wasted your life.

Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random.
Perhaps. But still a person can be lucky all their life and one bad bit of luck, like a plane crash, wipes it all out. Of course, under your worldview, all of the victims of 9/11 were being "punished".

Aardvark_DK

16th February 2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Franko
The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain.
Wow! Thanks! Not sure I'll ever use that in a conversation though.

Franko

16th February 2003, 04:55 PM

Although I was occasionally punished by my parents, they never did so randomly and I was always told (at great length) why I was being punished. In fact, I dreaded a lecture more than a spanking. "God the Parent" is not like this. He/She never explains anything. Sometimes a human will make a weak attempt to do so, but lots of times they are reduced to saying "Its God's will" in lieu of an explanation. Their God sounds like an abusive parent.

You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!? She has single handedly explained more to you then any entity explained in all of the eternities that you existed in prior to your arrival here. I find your utter ingratitude towards Her beyond appalling.

Your ability to resist potty training for 30 years is nothing to be proud about.

Sure. As soon as you show me evidence that I have an immortal soul.

Actually you’re right … I doubt yours is immortal.

I believe I am making the correct wager. I do not waste the only life I am sure of chasing a chimera. You, on the other hand, are betting on one conception of God. If you are wrong and the real God hates Logical Deists, well then your soul is just as much in peril as mine. Plus, you have wasted your life.

Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option?

Perhaps. But still a person can be lucky all their life and one bad bit of luck, like a plane crash, wipes it all out. Of course, under your worldview, all of the victims of 9/11 were being "punished".

You are too convinced that this world is the be all and end all of existence. I’m sure people arrive in the Metaverse and regret that they didn’t die years earlier.

Loki

16th February 2003, 05:05 PM

gabriel,

One other slight reworking of the "parent/child" analogy - it's actually a "child/child/invisible parent" analogy.

When the child does "something hazardous" and needs to be taught a less, the invisible parent inflicts pain and suffering, then sends a separate child in to explain why. This gets worse, as in actual fact several children (each claiming to be in contact with a different invisible parent), surround the original child offering conflicting explanations of the hazard, the punishment, and the solution. And each child denies that any other invisible parent exists, except their own.

So, presuming one single parent actually exists, their idea of "teaching a lesson" is to :
(a) observe a child in a "hazardous situation";
(b) inflict some amount of suffering on the child;
(c) send 5 or 10 other children into the room with conflicting stories of what happened, and why.
(d) At all times, remain out of sight.

A interesting concept in education!

Tricky

16th February 2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Franko
You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!? She has single handedly explained more to you then any entity explained in all of the eternities that you existed in prior to your arrival here. I find your utter ingratitude towards Her beyond appalling.

Funny, all this time "The Goddess" has been pumping this information through my senses, and She never once stopped to mention her name. How do I know it is Her pumping and not Allah or Zeus? How do I in fact know that any deity has its hand on the pump? How do you? Zoroaster may find your ingratitude towards him appalling, and send you to the abyss for it. Gods are funny that way.

Your ability to resist potty training for 30 years is nothing to be proud about.
Practicing for the Flame War section? Bring it on, Logic man. You'll wind up less conscious than a piece of toast. But in this forum you should stick to religion and philosophy.

Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option?
And maybe you are destined for the abyss. You can't really know, since you cannot know the mind of God(ess). Your purpose for being here may be only to serve as a bad example.

You are too convinced that this world is the be all and end all of existence. I’m sure people arrive in the Metaverse and regret that they didn’t die years earlier.
You're sure of that? My, you certainly do have a lot of "knowledge" for someone who can't master logic or science.
Okay, then lets talk about the families they left behind. What are they being punished for? You may have a hard time convincing them that they are being rewarded.

Franko

16th February 2003, 05:18 PM

Funny, all this time "The Goddess" has been pumping this information through my senses, and She never once stopped to mention her name. How do I know it is Her pumping and not Allah or Zeus? How do I in fact know that any deity has its hand on the pump? How do you? Zoroaster my find your ingratitude towards him appalling, and send you to the abyss for it. Gods are funny that way.

She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy. I thought you just told me that You take responsibility for how you perceive the Universe. Now it sounds like you are being a little baby and blaming the Goddess for your own shortcomings?

And maybe you are destined for the abyss. You can't really know, since you cannot know the mind of God(ess). Your purpose for being here may be only to serve as a bad example.

heheh … you really are retarded old man.

You're sure of that? My, you certainly do have a lot of "knowledge" for someone who can't master logic or science.

At least I’m not stupid enough to claim that I have magical “free willy” powers that I couldn’t prove if my immortal soul depended on it. At least I know not to claim that TOAST is more complex than a HUMAN BEING. At least I know what Determinism is, and that the present is based on the past, and that the past is not in flux, and at least I don’t lie at every opportunity because I have foolishly deluded myself into believing that there won’t be consequences for my actions.

You can give me lessons on “logic” when you can explain why you believe you have the ability to “choose” between available “options”.

I thought the atoms in your head obeyed the same rules that any other chemicals obey?

Loki

16th February 2003, 05:34 PM

Franko,

At least I know not to claim that TOAST is more complex than a HUMAN BEING.
Well, not yet - that won't happen until the Era of Toast, which follows the Era of Individuality, but doesn't start for another 9 years yet (you know, 2012, Mayan calender, all that stuff...)

Tricky

16th February 2003, 05:39 PM

Tricky

16th February 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Franko

She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy. I thought you just told me that You take responsibility for how you perceive the Universe.
She doesn't? She controlls all my choices but not my perceptions? Does that mean I can perceive when she is making a choice against my will, but I can't do anything about it? Sound's very much like Being John Malkovich to me.

Now it sounds like you are being a little baby and blaming the Goddess for your own shortcomings?
How could I blame something I don't believe in? Besides, I already said I take responsibility for my own actions, since they are decided by my free will. If I could not make a choice, then I might blame the one who was making the choices, but I don't believe that to be the case.

heheh … you really are retarded old man.
I am withered by your searing argument of logic.:rolleyes:
At least I’m not stupid enough to claim that I have magical “free willy” powers that I couldn’t prove if my immortal soul depended on it.
I'd have to agree that we have not established a limiting boundary for your stupidity.
You can give me lessons on “logic” when you can explain why you believe you have the ability to “choose” between available “options”.
Because I do it every waking moment of every day. Ask me to pick a number. I can. I have free will. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, Franko.

I thought the atoms in your head obeyed the same rules that any other chemicals obey?
Yep, including their susceptibility to be acted upon by random forces.

Franko

16th February 2003, 06:43 PM

She doesn't? She controlls all my choices but not my perceptions? Does that mean I can perceive when she is making a choice against my will, but I can't do anything about it? Sound's very much like Being John Malkovich to me.

Don’t think about it too hard Trixy. I wouldn’t want your carefully crafted delusions about reality to be seriously challenged. After dedicating all of those long years telling your friends and family how stupid they were for believing that “God” existed there is just no way you can afford to be wrong about this.

Tricky:
If I could not make a choice, then I might blame the one who was making the choices, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party.

Isn’t that how your logic works?

Because I do it every waking moment of every day. Ask me to pick a number. I can. I have free will. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, Franko

Right … right, in the same way that The Earth is really flat and motionless because it appears flat and motionless. By the exact same logic, we have “free will” because it appears that we have “free will”. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that just because you mention “rocket scientist” at the end of your posts doesn’t make your point any less absurd.

You are a brainwashed religious fanatic who has dedicated the better part of his life in this universe to the world’s most pessimistic cult. You have already cut off your nose to spite your face, the question is how many other body parts do are you willing to lop off before you realize you are simply throwing good money after bad? Do you talk to your Wife about these conversations we have? I wonder who’s side She would be more inclined to take? I think that if you do manage to ultimately persist, it will be your woman you have to thank for it.

neutrino_cannon

16th February 2003, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Franko

\You are a brainwashed religious fanatic who has dedicated the better part of his life in this universe to the world’s most pessimistic cult. You have already cut off your nose to spite your face, the question is how many other body parts do are you willing to lop off before you realize you are simply throwing good money after bad? Do you talk to your Wife about these conversations we have? I wonder who’s side She would be more inclined to take? I think that if you do manage to ultimately persist, it will be your woman you have to thank for it.

Wouldn't comments like this grace the halls of the flame war section more properly? I would respond in a simmiliar manner, but discression and self-righteousness caught me.

"You are a... whao has dedicated the better part of his life ..." Are you implying that I could dedicate somebody elses life to a cause?

I don't find atheism to be depressing, and I beleive myself to be a functional member of society despite my incredulous attitude toward god.

While I don't find atheism depressing, I do find people who attack it very tiring. I also know female atheists with much the same attitude.

16th February 2003, 07:39 PM

Franco...Its me Jimmy. Boy are you a hard guy to find. So...Did you get my last post Friday? I'm still your man. I want to learn about this she-god you yak about.

What are the rituals involved? Do I have to get up early sometime? Do I meet anywhere with other dudes and dudettes?

What's your church like? I'll bet its nice huh? Does it have stain-glass windows, or just stains? I hope your goddette thinks its okay to be comfy. Some of the other gods want you to sit up straight.

Do you pass a collection plate? Do you have funny costumes and pester little kids? Whats a day in the life of a follower like? Are you recognized as a tax-free institution? Should you be in an institution?

Do you have a good book? Do you have drills to see who knows the good book the best. What about camps? Do you take other peoples kids to camp and make them do things like crafts.

How 'bout songs? Do you sing happy songs or sad songs? Do you have a choir? Are they any good? Do you have to go around knocking on doors? I hope not. My knuckles aint what they used to be.

Wait...this message just in...You are a scum sucking, saliva sipping, penis featured, piss whistle! Your mother sucks......

Woops. That old whammy was just on me again telling me to be disrespectful. Sorry but its kinda like turrets syndrome. I can't help it.

Anyway, can I be one of your followers if that's the correct term? Can I be in charge of the collection plate? What kind of seniority am I looking at if I join up right now? Do I get a toaster?

Tricky

16th February 2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Franko
Don’t think about it too hard Trixy. I wouldn’t want your carefully crafted delusions about reality to be seriously challenged. After dedicating all of those long years telling your friends and family how stupid they were for believing that “God” existed there is just no way you can afford to be wrong about this.
Sorry Franko. I can't force myself to "not think". Maybe if I studied Logical Deism it might be possible, but I'm not ready yet to turn off my brain.
My family and I have lots of interesting discussions. In a couple of weeks I'm going to visit my cousin who has just converted to Catholicism. We've had some very interesting and amicable discussions. I wish you and I could do so as well.

If I am wrong I will suffer the consequenses, as will you. But, of course, you are incapable of being wrong.

You are a brainwashed religious fanatic who has dedicated the better part of his life in this universe to the world’s most pessimistic cult. You have already cut off your nose to spite your face, the question is how many other body parts do are you willing to lop off before you realize you are simply throwing good money after bad? Do you talk to your Wife about these conversations we have? I wonder who’s side She would be more inclined to take? I think that if you do manage to ultimately persist, it will be your woman you have to thank for it.
Actually, my wife and I often discuss these boards. She has read a number of your posts. Do you honestly want to know what she thinks of you?

18th February 2003, 05:29 AM

Thank you all for your responses. All have been of great help toi clarify my ideas.
Next round with this guy will be this week.

Tricky

18th February 2003, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by gabriel
Thank you all for your responses. All have been of great help toi clarify my ideas.
Next round with this guy will be this week.
You're very welcome, Gabriel. This sort of thing is fun, and also helps us sort out our own thoughts on this (and perhaps prepare our positions in case we should be faced with the same argument).

BTW, if you put your website in http://www.psicrap.cl
brackets (substituting U for V), then your sig will appear as a clickable link, like this.
http://www.psicrap.cl

MRC_Hans

18th February 2003, 06:58 AM

Oi, oi, oi! This is one of the threads that shows me why I still bother with Franko. The entertaiment seems to be endless. Instead of the tiresome answering posts (thanks go to hose that took the trouble here), I have compiled a little excerpt from the thread so far. Franko's words are in bold:

God does the best She can. She supplies consistent honest information. If you cannot perceive the pattern in it, that how is that Her fault?

Uhhm, a God that cannot manage to make herself understood by a human? Oh, well. :rolleyes:

If your (15 year old) “child” urinates on the sofa

*snip*

Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet?

Franko's choice of examples gives me all sorts of interesting images of his childhood.

Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters?

After Tricky says he was not hit on his head by siblings.... Apparantly such a situation is beyond Franko's imagination.

Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul on that?

If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance
you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial?

Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random.

Franko expresses his belief that it makes any difference to the ultimate Truth what we choose to believe.

You think this post is coming directly from me? It’s being relayed to You by the LG herself. She’s like the server,
You are like a node on the server. You aren’t in direct contact with any other nodes, you are only in contact with Her.

Apart for the rich wackyness of this belief, we are here getting a picture of a Goddess who insults people, calls them names, distorts their statements, uses incomprehensible logic, and cannot spell very well.

Even Yatzi will tell you his consciousness is just an illusion, and you just know that "I" am going to end up being a
figment of your imagination. The Universe is all in your head.

And we're not spared ye olde Inverse Solipsism card, here with a little twist: Appeal to an inverse authority; inverse
because Franko doesnt agree with Yatzi on anything much.

Ohh Loki, I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now. Just ask around.

A rare and unexpected flash of realism! No need to don sunglasses, though; it doesn't last.

Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing. You don't get one without the other.

Stating a non-sequiteur with the air of an absolute. Plain vanilla in the Franko universe.

I'm glad you two are finally showing some signs of stirring from your slumbers. I guess if this trend continues in a few months you will be claiming that you had been Fatalist all along, and that you never claimed to have “free will”?

Yet another instance where Franko seems to think that others should change their ways, despite the fact that he "blathers on repititiously (sic)" about their having no free will.

The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain.

I'll simply lets this gem speak for itself.

You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!?

Interesting. So according to this, dreams are NOT coming from the Goddess. I wonder what they are then? Then of course, it seems a little weird that the most powerful entity in the universe is confined to swamping us with information, but has no ability to make us perceive it in the right way.

Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option?

Franko constantly asks others to change their way, but he himself is only a victim of his destiny, of course.

She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy.

As already mentioned, a very intersting hypothesis: So, obviously, since we do percieve, we must control it ourselves. Apparantly, in this very important field we do have free will?

At least I know what Determinism is, and that the present is based on the past, and that the past is not in flux, and at least I don’t lie at every opportunity because I have foolishly deluded myself into believing that there won’t be consequences for my actions.

Well, we all know what Determinism is, but unfortunately Franko fails to present evidence that Determinism is true. He doesnt lie at every opportunity, only whenever he makes a distorted quote of somebody here (which is on every other opportunity). At least he believes there will be consequences for his actions, but that doesn't seem to stop him.

Right … right, in the same way that The Earth is really flat and motionless because it appears flat and motionless.

Does the Earth appear flat and motionless to anybody here?

---- Well, thanks for the great fun.

Hans

Franko

18th February 2003, 10:33 AM

neutrino_cannon:

I don't find atheism to be depressing, and I beleive myself to be a functional member of society despite my incredulous attitude toward god.

So essentially you are telling me that the fact you like to burn your hand on the stove and I don’t makes me the crazy one?

Keep telling yourself that A-Theists, tell yourself that all the way down …

Franko

18th February 2003, 10:46 AM

Franko: (Logical Deist)
God does the best She can. She supplies consistent honest information. If you cannot perceive the pattern in it, that how is that Her fault?

MRC: (A-Theist)
Uhhm, a God that cannot manage to make herself understood by a human? Oh, well.

You mean like you can’t manage to make a squirrel understand Calculus?

MRC: (A-Theist)
Franko expresses his belief that it makes any difference to the ultimate Truth what we choose to believe.

So you are conceding the A-Theistic stance that the Truth doesn’t matter? (it doesn’t matter what you believe?)

Franko: (Logical Deist)
You think this post is coming directly from me? It’s being relayed to You by the LG herself. She’s like the server, You are like a node on the server. You aren’t in direct contact with any other nodes, you are only in contact with Her.

MRC: (A-Theist)
Apart for the rich wackyness of this belief, we are here getting a picture of a Goddess who insults people, calls them names, distorts their statements, uses incomprehensible logic, and cannot spell very well.

What part of “She is relaying this message” do you not comprehend? I never said She corrects your spelling in transit. Well … at least I doubt She would correct your spelling …

Come on Han-Job! Even by your cosmology all of your information has one single Source – The laws of physics (TLOP). What information do you acquire that does not arrive via TLOP?

Franko: (Logical Deist)Even Yatzi will tell you his consciousness is just an illusion, and you just know that "I" am going to end up being a
figment of your imagination. The Universe is all in your head.

MRC: (A-Theist)
And we're not spared ye olde Inverse Solipsism card, here with a little twist: Appeal to an inverse authority; inverse because Franko doesnt agree with Yatzi on anything much.

Yes, but You do Agree with Yatzi, Hans-job. Yet you are contradicting one of your brother A-Theists!!! According to You, what is doing the “choosing” with regard to “free will”? Aren’t YOU really just your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of Atoms (chemicals)? And don’t those chemicals just obey the exact same laws that ALL other chemicals obey? So unless you are claiming that ALL chemicals have “free will”, then I don’t see what is so special about the chemicals in your brain (in terms of TLOP). If other atoms don’t make “choices”, then what is it so special about the atoms in Your Physical Brain that they do get to make “choices”?

Is it one particular Atom that actually makes the “choice” MRC? Do the Atoms in your brain elect a ‘president” atom, or is it more of a direct democracy? How do atoms vote for their “choice”? Do some of the atoms ever dissent and get unruly if they don’t get the choice they wanted?

SpaceLord

18th February 2003, 12:02 PM

"Only the Fool is absolutely certain he is correct."

Franko, you have spent I assume hundreds of hours on these boards, fighting almost everyone, tooth and nail. But you seem to have converted no one to Logical Deism.

Is this because the "a-theists" have no free will? But remember, if you get one convert, the Church of LD would double in membership. That is truly a noble goal.

MRC_Hans

18th February 2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Franko
You mean like you can’t manage to make a squirrel understand Calculus?

If I wanted to make something clear to a squirrel I wouldnt use math :rolleyes:

So you are conceding the A-Theistic stance that the Truth doesn’t matter? (it doesn’t matter what you believe?)

I'm just observing that you think you cam make wagers with truth.

What part of “She is relaying this message” do you not comprehend? I never said She corrects your spelling in transit. Well … at least I doubt She would correct your spelling …

Oh I comprehend you words. Unfortunately that doesn't mean they make sense.

Come on Han-Job! Even by your cosmology all of your information has one single Source – The laws of physics (TLOP). What information do you acquire that does not arrive via TLOP?

And?

Yes, but You do Agree with Yatzi, Hans-job. Yet you are contradicting one of your brother A-Theists!!!

Brother?

According to You, what is doing the “choosing” with regard to “free will”? Aren’t YOU really just your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of Atoms (chemicals)? And don’t those chemicals just obey the exact same laws that ALL other chemicals obey? So unless you are claiming that ALL chemicals have “free will”, then I don’t see what is so special about the chemicals in your brain (in terms of TLOP). If other atoms don’t make “choices”, then what is it so special about the atoms in Your Physical Brain that they do get to make “choices”?

Is it one particular Atom that actually makes the “choice” MRC? Do the Atoms in your brain elect a ‘president” atom, or is it more of a direct democracy? How do atoms vote for their “choice”? Do some of the atoms ever dissent and get unruly if they don’t get the choice they wanted?

You get wackier all the time. Amazing.

Hans

Akots

18th February 2003, 12:29 PM

The little child theory of God contradicts the concept of an all powerful entity; children, nessecarily, grow up to become their parents, and could then concievably replace their parents as fully functioning adults. Humans are not able to replace a supreme omnipotent being, regardless of evolution or enlightenment.

As for laws, well, yes... God tells us that we shouldn't put our hand on a hot stove by making it a painful experience. God encourages advancement of basic civilization through the administration of periodic maniffestations of himself.

Not mcuh of an argument... LOTS of things are either subtle or direct.

If one assumes mortals can never truly become all-knowing, than an all-knowingbeing would of course know things we wouldn't, and would see fit to assign laws and regulations, the benefit of which we might never comprehend or understand.

c4ts

18th February 2003, 01:12 PM

Franko

18th February 2003, 07:21 PM

Spacecadet: (brainwashed A-Theist lackey)

Franko, you have spent I assume hundreds of hours on these boards, fighting almost everyone, tooth and nail. But you seem to have converted no one to Logical Deism.

Is this because the "a-theists" have no free will? But remember, if you get one convert, the Church of LD would double in membership. That is truly a noble goal.

hehehe ... when are you A-Theists going to learn that if majority vote determines the Truth about Reality then A-Theism was proven wrong long long ago.

You are an idiot Spacecadet. LD certainly wouldn't be happy if I "recruited" You.

Franko

18th February 2003, 07:26 PM

MRC:

I noticed that neither you or your little asskisser (SpaceLord) even took a limp-wristed a-theist jab at responding to thess points. Like I keep asking MRC, what are you afraid of??? Why are you unable to answer such simple questions about your "superior" metaphysical belief system? I thought that you were suppose to be so smart, scientific and articulate. These are very simple questions, surely after being an A-Theists for so long you must have thought of some very simple answer for them ?

According to You, what is doing the “choosing” with regard to “free will”? Aren’t YOU really just your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of Atoms (chemicals)? And don’t those chemicals just obey the exact same laws that ALL other chemicals obey? So unless you are claiming that ALL chemicals have “free will”, then I don’t see what is so special about the chemicals in your brain (in terms of TLOP). If other atoms don’t make “choices”, then what is it so special about the atoms in Your Physical Brain that they do get to make “choices”?

Is it one particular Atom that actually makes the “choice” MRC? Do the Atoms in your brain elect a ‘president” atom, or is it more of a direct democracy? How do atoms vote for their “choice”? Do some of the atoms ever dissent and get unruly if they don’t get the "choice" they wanted?

Franko

18th February 2003, 07:28 PM

If one assumes mortals can never truly become all-knowing, than an all-knowingbeing would of course know things we wouldn't, and would see fit to assign laws and regulations, the benefit of which we might never comprehend or understand.

All you have to do is be willing to assume that we are not all-knowing right now (but not necessarily for all time) and this could be True for us ... couldn't it?

What exactly do you suppose it "sounds" ("looks") like when an omnipotent being communicates with You?

SpaceLord

18th February 2003, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by Franko

hehehe ... when are you A-Theists going to learn that if majority vote determines the Truth about Reality then A-Theism was proven wrong long long ago.

You are an idiot Spacecadet. LD certainly wouldn't be happy if I "recruited" You.

Ahhh, franko. How quickly you forget. I recently informed you that I was an agnostic, and you quickly did an about-face and apologized. I can see the leopard cannot changes his spots for long.

SpaceLord

18th February 2003, 07:49 PM

Franko, I am no one's posterior kisser. What delusions do you operate under? I have never responded to MRC's posts, nor have I supported MRC. You're just paranoid, afraid all the "a-theists" and my harmless agnostic self are out to get you.

DrMatt

18th February 2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by gabriel
Hi Stimpi, thanks fro answer me.

I understand your point.
This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask".
Am I right?

Yes, and by telling you to not use your mind, they are insulting all of humanity. We don't have fangs or massive weight or the ability to swim 600 km per day or built-in wings or armored skin. But we've got brains. Our survival as a species is predicated on the use of our brains.

MRC_Hans

18th February 2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by SpaceLord
Franko, I am no one's posterior kisser. What delusions do you operate under? I have never responded to MRC's posts, nor have I supported MRC. You're just paranoid, afraid all the "a-theists" and my harmless agnostic self are out to get you. And dont you ever dare try to kiss my a55! Eeeew!

;) Hans :D

MRC_Hans

18th February 2003, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Franko
MRC:

I noticed that neither you or your little asskisser (SpaceLord) even took a limp-wristed a-theist jab at responding to thess points. Like I keep asking MRC, what are you afraid of??? Why are you unable to answer such simple questions about your "superior" metaphysical belief system?

The fact that you dont understand or accept my answers doesn't mean they are not there. What metaphysical belief system are you talking about? I believe in observable reality, if you want to call that a metaphysical belief system, its hardly my problem. I dont feel obliged to explain reality to you.

I thought that you were suppose to be so smart, scientific and articulate. These are very simple questions, surely after being an A-Theists for so long you must have thought of some very simple answer for them ?

Why?

According to You, what is doing the “choosing” with regard to “free will”? Aren’t YOU really just your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of Atoms (chemicals)? And don’t those chemicals just obey the exact same laws that ALL other chemicals obey?

I'm sure all chemicals follow the physical laws. You, on the other hand, seem to think that souls and gravitons are somehow special. :rolleyes:

So unless you are claiming that ALL chemicals have “free will”, then I don’t see what is so special about the chemicals in your brain (in terms of TLOP). If other atoms don’t make “choices”, then what is it so special about the atoms in Your Physical Brain that they do get to make “choices”?

Fallacy of composition again. There is such a thing as emergent properties; a computer is more than a collection of silicon chips :rolleyes:

Is it one particular Atom that actually makes the “choice” MRC? Do the Atoms in your brain elect a ‘president” atom, or is it more of a direct democracy? How do atoms vote for their “choice”? Do some of the atoms ever dissent and get unruly if they don’t get the "choice" they wanted?

I think you humor has been better in the past.

But lets get this clear once and for all. Read carefully, because I don't expect I will bother to repeat it:

I can PROVE that reality is not Deterministic (capitalized).
I can observe that the information in the universe is not constant.
I can observe that conscious decisions make a difference.
I can observe that I need to act as if my decisions matter, so I live accordingly.

YOU choose to call this "free willy" and claim that its a god I worship and ask me to prove it exists. However, your claim that I have a god doesn't put the burden of proof on me.

You also make all sorts of wacky claims about your special cosmology, just read Tricky's list to see what you have claimed. You do not wish to confirm that list, but I can confirm that you have claimed these things. Whether you believe them or not, I cannot know.

Now, Frank'o: Why dont YOU start to provide some scraps of evidence for all your wacky claims about how the multiverse functions? Do start with "Atoms obey.." and "TLOP-You-Car" if you must, but then continue and explain just how exactly this leads on to gravitons, logical goddesses, progenitor solipsists, and the other things that populate your pantheon.

And why won't you explain how phosphorescense can function as anybody can observe it does and still be deterministic? I have asked you this six times now, and you consistently ignore it; are you afraid of the answer? ;)

Hans

19th February 2003, 05:41 AM

Before you go on with this tirade folks, let me make you aware that Franko has convinced someone on the validity of Logical Deism. It is me! I want to be a disciple of Franko's but I can't get him to acknowledge me.

Franko....Why hast thou forsaken me? Do you not believe my sincerity? Give me a task, a quest, a test, something that I can show you that I want to know and understand you and your crazy talk.

I have given you the best minutes of my life and you ignore me. That is just plain rude. I demand that you follow the laws of physics and answer me! You do not have a choice in this matter!

So it is written, so it shall be done!

Akots

19th February 2003, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by Franko

All you have to do is be willing to assume that we are not all-knowing right now (but not necessarily for all time) and this could be True for us ... couldn't it?

Actually, quite the opposite... We are not all-knowing now, and we never will be. It is not within human capacity to contain all knowledge in the universe, as we are composed of a finite number of cells. Being ALL knowing and ALL powerful (not merely MOST knowing or powerful) is not a mortal property.

What exactly do you suppose it "sounds" ("looks") like when an omnipotent being communicates with You?

How do you know he hasn't already contacted you in a way you could never recognize?

Franko

19th February 2003, 07:04 AM

Franko:
According to You, what is doing the “choosing” with regard to “free will”? Aren’t YOU really just your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of Atoms (chemicals)? And don’t those chemicals just obey the exact same laws that ALL other chemicals obey?

MRC:
I'm sure all chemicals follow the physical laws. You, on the other hand, seem to think that souls and gravitons are somehow special.

No I am a Fatalist who believes that all life is merely a product of The laws of Physics (TLOP) and the “matter”; and therefore bound by the deterministic laws of TLOP. Now you can claim that TLOP is not deterministic, but I don’t see how you can claim to NOT be bound by the rules of TLOP. And if you are bound by TLOP then how are YOU making any “decisions”? I would say that the Laws – TLOP – were the ones making all of the “decisions”. Where is the YOU anyway? YOU are just a collection of Atoms, and YOU doesn’t control those atoms – TLOP does.

Or are you again claiming that TLOP does not control the atoms in your brain?

Franko:
So unless you are claiming that ALL chemicals have “free will”, then I don’t see what is so special about the chemicals in your brain (in terms of TLOP). If other atoms don’t make “choices”, then what is it so special about the atoms in Your Physical Brain that they do get to make “choices”?

MRC:
Fallacy of composition again. There is such a thing as emergent properties; a computer is more than a collection of silicon chips.

The Silicon and other types of atoms in a computer are also bound by the Laws of Physics MRC. Or are you claiming that computers also have “free will” now?

Franko

19th February 2003, 07:06 AM

Ahhh, franko. How quickly you forget. I recently informed you that I was an agnostic, and you quickly did an about-face and apologized. I can see the leopard cannot changes his spots for long.

If you are going to call yourself an "Agnostic", then you should act like one. Don't be a dishonest A-Theists pretending to be an Agnostic.

SpaceLord

19th February 2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Franko

If you are going to call yourself an "Agnostic", then you should act like one. Don't be a dishonest A-Theists pretending to be an Agnostic.

What are you talking about, franko? I have not been dishonest. All I asked is why haven't you been able to convert anyone in well over a year of trying.

And what the heck does that have to do with atheism? :confused:

Franko

19th February 2003, 09:36 AM

What are you talking about, franko? I have not been dishonest. All I asked is why haven't you been able to convert anyone in well over a year of trying.

1) I'm not trying to convert anyone to Logical Deism. I say this all the time.
2) Why would you care? (what does this have to do with anything?)
3) are you sure I haven't?

SpaceLord

19th February 2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Franko

1) I'm not trying to convert anyone to Logical Deism. I say this all the time.
2) Why would you care? (what does this have to do with anything?)
3) are you sure I haven't?

1) Ok, if you're not trying to convert anyone, then you're doing a bang-up job. Thumbs up.

2) If LD is the "truth", as you profess it to be, why don't you want people to know and apply such truth?

3)Apparently, someone on this thread wants to convert, yet it seems you are ignoring them.

Franko

19th February 2003, 09:56 AM

1) Ok, if you're not trying to convert anyone, then you're doing a bang-up job. Thumbs up.

2) If LD is the "truth", as you profess it to be, why don't you want people to know and apply such truth?

3)Apparently, someone on this thread wants to convert, yet it seems you are ignoring them.

No one is converted to LD. A Person becomes a Logical Deists because it was their Fate (Destiny) to become a Logical Deist. You will notice that I never recommend Logical Deism to anyone on this board (seriously). I merely recommend that the A-Theists consider Agnosticism as a more realistic position.

Akots

19th February 2003, 11:22 AM

What would becoming a logical deist involve, exactly?

Tricky

19th February 2003, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Akots
What would becoming a logical deist involve, exactly?
The ceremonial Holy Lobotomy.

Franko

19th February 2003, 11:33 AM

What would becoming a logical deist involve, exactly?

Well for starters ... All Logical Deists are Fatalists.

Win

19th February 2003, 11:34 AM

Well for starters ... All Logical Deists are Fatalists.

No they're not. ;)

Yahzi

19th February 2003, 11:35 AM

Franko doesnt agree with Yatzi on anything much
Who is this Yatzi?

Oh, it must be me.

In yet another example of Franko bizzaro, I have been promoted to an authority on something. Why not Synthesia? He says it better... is my gift being able to communicate at a level that the Frankos of the world can understand? Can I exchange my gift for something useful, like a empty box, or a banana peel?

Akots

19th February 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Franko

Well for starters ... All Logical Deists are Fatalists.

What would becoming a Fatalist involve, exactly?

Franko

19th February 2003, 11:38 AM

No they're not.

Semantics my brother? ;)

Okay, how about this then: A Logical Deists believes in 3 fundamental tenets:

1) God
2) Soul
3) Fate/Karma/Divine Justice (You are ultimately responsible for your actions).

Akots

19th February 2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Franko

Semantics my brother? ;)

Okay, how about this then: A Logical Deists believes in 3 fundamental tenets:

1) God
2) Soul
3) Fate/Karma/Divine Justice (You are ultimately responsible for your actions).

Well, lots of religions and faiths do. What is exlusive to Logical Deists?

Win

19th February 2003, 11:47 AM

Frank:

1 and 2, OK.

3 is harder to get to, for me.

MRC_Hans

19th February 2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Franko

No I am a Fatalist who believes that all life is merely a product of The laws of Physics (TLOP) and the “matter”; and therefore bound by the deterministic laws of TLOP. Now you can claim that TLOP is not deterministic, but I don’t see how you can claim to NOT be bound by the rules of TLOP.

And, tada! As i have stated more times than I care to count, Frank'o, read my lips: I d o n o t c l a i m n o t t o b e b o u n d b y t l o p . If you can't understand it, can't you at least learn it by heart?

And if you are bound by TLOP then how are YOU making any “decisions”? I would say that the Laws – TLOP – were the ones making all of the “decisions”. Where is the YOU anyway? YOU are just a collection of Atoms, and YOU doesn’t control those atoms – TLOP does.

How can laws make decisions? How can laws keep me from making decisions?

Or are you again claiming that TLOP does not control the atoms in your brain?

And, tada! As i have stated more times than I care to count, Frank'o, read my lips: I d o n o t c l a i m n o t t o b e b o u n d b y t l o p . If you can't understand it, can't you at least learn it by heart?

The Silicon and other types of atoms in a computer are also bound by the Laws of Physics MRC. Or are you claiming that computers also have “free will” now?

No :rolleyes:. Do you claim that computers DONT have other properties than lumps of silicon?

Hans

Franko

19th February 2003, 01:05 PM

Franko:
No I am a Fatalist who believes that all life is merely a product of The laws of Physics (TLOP) and the “matter”; and therefore bound by the deterministic laws of TLOP. Now you can claim that TLOP is not deterministic, but I don’t see how you can claim to NOT be bound by the rules of TLOP.

MRC: (deluded A-Theist fanatic)
And, tada! As i have stated more times than I care to count, Frank'o, read my lips: I d o n o t c l a i m n o t t o b e b o u n d b y t l o p . If you can't understand it, can't you at least learn it by heart?

Well that contradicts your earlier statements that You are controlled by TLOP, and that You Obey TLOP.

So what does it mean exactly when you claim that You are not bound by The laws of physics??? Can you fly if you want to MRC? If you jump off of the roof of a tall building will you not be bound immediately down to the pavement where you will be squashed like a bug? Are you finally conceding that your a-Theism merely just a complete and total rejection of reality?

Franko:
And if you are bound by TLOP then how are YOU making any “decisions”? I would say that the Laws – TLOP – were the ones making all of the “decisions”. Where is the YOU anyway? YOU are just a collection of Atoms, and YOU doesn’t control those atoms – TLOP does.

MRC: (insane)
How can laws make decisions? How can laws keep me from making decisions?

So you are saying that the Laws of Physics don’t control the behavior of “matter”? What is the difference between controlling the behavior of matter, and “making a decision”? making a decision is actually just your atoms doing what atoms do as dictated by TLOP.

As I keep asking you MRC, according to what YOU BELIEVE, where is the YOU in the equation? The YOU is just your physical brain made of chemicals. Chemicals which obey the same laws that ALL chemicals obey.

If you believe this is incorrect, then why do you persist in refusing to explain the “real way” that it works?

Franko:
Or are you again claiming that TLOP does not control the atoms in your brain?

MRC: (crazy A-Theist)
And, tada! As i have stated more times than I care to count, Frank'o, read my lips: I d o n o t c l a i m n o t t o b e b o u n d b y t l o p . If you can't understand it, can't you at least learn it by heart?

So the atoms in your brain are NOT bound by TLOP? What on Earth does that mean MRC??? This sounds like quite an extraordinary claim. I am certain that you must have some extra extraordinary evidence to back it up!

Franko:
The Silicon and other types of atoms in a computer are also bound by the Laws of Physics MRC. Or are you claiming that computers also have “free will” now?

MRC: (A-Theist idiot)
No . Do you claim that computers DONT have other properties than lumps of silicon?

1) from the standpoint of TLOP the atoms in a computer are just as bound by TLOP as the atoms in beach sand.
2) A human being (a consciousness) is required to make/create a computer.

annadee

19th February 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by gabriel
As a way to reinforce my ideas I engage in healthy debate with cristians.

They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was:

We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.
Well I don't agree with what they told you, Gabriel (That's a funny name for someone who likes to argue with Christians:)). I don't think God is like a parent, or at least not very much. Yes, he does things for reasons, but not necessarily reasons we can understand.

I know horrible things happen in the world and they don't seem to make sense. But what are you going to do? Throw up your hands and just say the world is doomed? I won't do that. I will try to bring good to my little part of the world and have faith God will balance everything out in the long run. I think that's all any of us can do.

MRC_Hans

20th February 2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by Franko

Well that contradicts your earlier statements that You are controlled by TLOP, and that You Obey TLOP.

I'll give you that my attempt to write very clearly and slowly was somewhat foiled by the way the forum software handles blank space, so although it was actually still readable, you get a repeat: I do not claim that I am not bound by the laws of physics. Can you understand it this time?

So what does it mean exactly when you claim that You are not bound by The laws of physics??? Can you fly if you want to MRC? If you jump off of the roof of a tall building will you not be bound immediately down to the pavement where you will be squashed like a bug? Are you finally conceding that your a-Theism merely just a complete and total rejection of reality?

I'll give you that my attempt to write very clearly and slowly was somewhat foiled by the way the forum software handles blank space, so although it was actually still readable, you get a repeat: I do not claim that I am not bound by the laws of physics. Can you understand it this time?

So you are saying that the Laws of Physics don’t control the behavior of “matter”?

No, I'm not saying that.

What is the difference between controlling the behavior of matter, and “making a decision”? making a decision is actually just your atoms doing what atoms do as dictated by TLOP.

Am I not controlling the behavior of my matter when I make a decision?

As I keep asking you MRC, according to what YOU BELIEVE, where is the YOU in the equation? The YOU is just your physical brain made of chemicals. Chemicals which obey the same laws that ALL chemicals obey.

If you believe this is incorrect, then why do you persist in refusing to explain the “real way” that it works?

I do not claim to have the explanation. I claim, and have been claiming all along, that I percive free will for a number of reasons, all of which I have explained on different occasions. You are the one who claims to KNOW the TRUTH, yet refuse to explain how you arrive at that truth.

So the atoms in your brain are NOT bound by TLOP? What on Earth does that mean MRC??? This sounds like quite an extraordinary claim. I am certain that you must have some extra extraordinary evidence to back it up!

Again I claimed the opposite. Apparantly you misread.

1) from the standpoint of TLOP the atoms in a computer are just as bound by TLOP as the atoms in beach sand.
2) A human being (a consciousness) is required to make/create a computer.

Sure. But that does not answer my question, which was: Do you claim that computers DONT have other properties than lumps of silicon?

Hans

Franko

20th February 2003, 07:52 AM

Franko:
Well that contradicts your earlier statements that You are controlled by TLOP, and that You Obey TLOP.

MRC:
I'll give you that my attempt to write very clearly and slowly was somewhat foiled by the way the forum software handles blank space, so although it was actually still readable, you get a repeat: I do not claim that I am not bound by the laws of physics. Can you understand it this time?

No. Because previously you have contradicted these statements by claiming that YOU OBEY TLOP, and that YOU ARE CONTROLLED BY TLOP. So why are you refusing to explain how you can be CONTROLLED BY TLOP and OBEY TLOP, yet not be BOUND BY TLOP? What is your evidence for these contradictory claims? Are you THAT embarrassed to explain your beliefs to us MRC? That makes you look like a huge A-Theist hypocrite.

Franko:
So what does it mean exactly when you claim that You are not bound by The laws of physics??? Can you fly if you want to MRC? If you jump off of the roof of a tall building will you not be bound immediately down to the pavement where you will be squashed like a bug? Are you finally conceding that your a-Theism merely just a complete and total rejection of reality?

MRC:
I'll give you that my attempt to write very clearly and slowly was somewhat foiled by the way the forum software handles blank space, so although it was actually still readable, you get a repeat: I do not claim that I am not bound by the laws of physics. Can you understand it this time?

Why are you “responding” to my post by NOT actually responding? What are you trying to hide A-theist? Why are you so timid about discussing your beliefs? When you act this way it makes you look insecure. It is as if YOU KNOW that your beliefs are wrong, and you are trying to hide that fact. Is this your idea of discussion MRC? Is this your idea of intellectual honesty?

You seem more like the typical dishonest A-Theist that I have been predicting around for a long time.

So what does it mean exactly when you claim that You are not bound by The laws of physics??? Can you fly if you want to MRC? If you jump off of the roof of a tall building will you not be bound immediately down to the pavement where you will be squashed like a bug? Are you finally conceding that your a-Theism merely just a complete and total rejection of reality?

Franko:
So you are saying that the Laws of Physics don’t control the behavior of “matter”?

MRC:
No, I'm not saying that.

Well since as an A-Theist materialist you believe that you are nothing but “Matter” (certainly you have no Soul) then how can you be claiming not to be bound/controlled/obey the laws of physics? You are CLEARLY contradicting yourself MRC. Why do you believe in such a logically contradictory religion? Why is it okay to believe in “free willy” god based on no evidence, but not Zeus or some other imaginary diety? You sound more and more like a huge frigging hypocrite.

Franko:
What is the difference between controlling the behavior of matter, and “making a decision”? making a decision is actually just your atoms doing what atoms do as dictated by TLOP.

MRC:
Am I not controlling the behavior of my matter when I make a decision?

Yes You are, but if something else even more powerful is controlling you, then how can you claim there is no evidence for “god”? How can you claim that you have “free will”?

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR

I never said that you didn’t control the CAR MRC. But tell me, how is learning to drive different then learning to walk? In one instance your mind is learning to control (dominate) legs, and in the other mind is learning to control (dominate) CAR.

Franko:
As I keep asking you MRC, according to what YOU BELIEVE, where is the YOU in the equation? The YOU is just your physical brain made of chemicals. Chemicals which obey the same laws that ALL chemicals obey.

If you believe this is incorrect, then why do you persist in refusing to explain the “real way” that it works?

MRC:
I do not claim to have the explanation.

Then why do you claim that you have the explanation (GOD DEFINITELY DIDN’t DO IT!)??? Why do you call yourself A-Theist instead of Agnostic? Why are you deliberately being a hypocrite MRC? Is it because you know there won’t be any consequences for your actions? Is it because you want to pretend to know more than you do so you can pretend to be smarter than you actually are?

MRC:
I claim, and have been claiming all along, that I perceive free will for a number of reasons, all of which I have explained on different occasions. You are the one who claims to KNOW the TRUTH, yet refuse to explain how you arrive at that truth.

Not at all. I explain it all of the Time. You don’t have any “free will”. Here’s why:

Atoms obey TLOP (The Laws of Physics).
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

It’s that simple. (unless you have EVIDENCE to the contrary).

The fact is You don’t want to believe the Truth MRC. The Truth scares you. You’d rather go on believing that your pessimistic little fantasies are True. You prefer your fantasies to reality. Like all “good” (mystical) A-Theists you have no interest in what is actually True in reality.

MRC_Hans

20th February 2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Franko
No. Because previously you have contradicted these statements by claiming that YOU OBEY TLOP, and that YOU ARE CONTROLLED BY TLOP. So why are you refusing to explain how you can be CONTROLLED BY TLOP and OBEY TLOP, yet not be BOUND BY TLOP? What is your evidence for these contradictory claims? Are you THAT embarrassed to explain your beliefs to us MRC? That makes you look like a huge A-Theist hypocrite.

*snip*

So what does it mean exactly when you claim that You are not bound by The laws of physics??? Can you fly if you want to MRC? If you jump off of the roof of a tall building will you not be bound immediately down to the pavement where you will be squashed like a bug? Are you finally conceding that your a-Theism merely just a complete and total rejection of reality?

Is this some kind of joke? Or is it trolling? Or are you dumb? Or are you just unable to handle a sentence with a double negation?

Now, read carefully: I do not claim that I am not bound by tlop. I used this wording in response to your sentence "Do you claim that you are not bound by tlop?".

But I'll simplify it for you (you know, a double negation can simply be eliminated): I claim to be bound by tlop. Is that clear enough?

Hehehe, I thought you said semantics were deterministic? :p

Well since as an A-Theist materialist you believe that you are nothing but “Matter” (certainly you have no Soul) then how can you be claiming not to be bound/controlled/obey the laws of physics? You are CLEARLY contradicting yourself MRC. Why do you believe in such a logically contradictory religion? Why is it okay to believe in “free willy” god based on no evidence, but not Zeus or some other imaginary diety? You sound more and more like a huge frigging hypocrite.

Well, the answer to that should be cleared above.

Yes You are, but if something else even more powerful is controlling you, then how can you claim there is no evidence for “god”? How can you claim that you have “free will”?

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR

Seriously, Frank, that's a perfectly valid argument, but in order for it to PROVE that tlop is conscious, it must be universally applicable. And since it can be shown that a consciousness can be controlled by a lesser consciousness, it is not universal. And thus it does not prove your point.

I never said that you didn’t control the CAR MRC. But tell me, how is learning to drive different then learning to walk? In one instance your mind is learning to control (dominate) legs, and in the other mind is learning to control (dominate) CAR.

I agree that learing to drive is not fundamentally different from learning to walk. And?

Then why do you claim that you have the explanation (GOD DEFINITELY DIDN’t DO IT!)??? Why do you call yourself A-Theist instead of Agnostic? Why are you deliberately being a hypocrite MRC? Is it because you know there won’t be any consequences for your actions? Is it because you want to pretend to know more than you do so you can pretend to be smarter than you actually are?

Frank, for the umpteenth time: I do call myself agnostic. YOU call me A-Theist. Well, I'm not the one pretending to know the Truth of life, the universe, and everything, but you are.

Not at all. I explain it all of the Time. You don’t have any “free will”. Here’s why:

Atoms obey TLOP (The Laws of Physics).
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

It’s that simple. (unless you have EVIDENCE to the contrary).

I dont. But thats not evidence about the existence or non-existence of free will. Or the existence or non-existence of God.

The fact is You don’t want to believe the Truth MRC. The Truth scares you. You’d rather go on believing that your pessimistic little fantasies are True. You prefer your fantasies to reality. Like all “good” (mystical) A-Theists you have no interest in what is actually True in reality.

Ohhh, mind-reading again? :rolleyes:

Hans

Edited to add: Oup! I just notice I made another double negation up there. ---- Well, you'll get it if you try.

Suspected Idiot

21st February 2003, 05:34 AM

2 things

I) Franko, I think you have mis understood MRC. He is saying that he very definetly is bound by the laws of physics, but that those laws are not 100% deterministic.

II) Franko, is there anywhere where I can read your ideas as a whole? I'm fairly new to the forum, although I've been lurking for a while, and would like to know exactly what it is you are arguing for. I've got a rough idea from your posts, but they are not really the best place to explain complex philosophies.

Thanks.

Franko

21st February 2003, 11:31 AM

MRC:
Seriously, Frank, that's a perfectly valid argument, but in order for it to PROVE that tlop is conscious, it must be universally applicable. And since it can be shown that a consciousness can be controlled by a lesser consciousness, it is not universal. And thus it does not prove your point.

You are demonstrating your ignorance again. The fact is that you have no idea what consciousness actually is.

You are just a bunch of atoms MRC. Your “consciousness” is simply an algorithm, and it is an algorithm controlled by a larger more complex algorithm that you would identify as TLOP. You can pretend all you want that the laws of Physics don’t exist, you can even pretend that your actions are not governed by TLOP. I hope you keep believing it MRC, you think my argument against you is getting weaker over time?

Franko:
I never said that you didn’t control the CAR MRC. But tell me, how is learning to drive different then learning to walk? In one instance your mind is learning to control (dominate) legs, and in the other mind is learning to control (dominate) CAR.

MRC:
I agree that learning to drive is not fundamentally different from learning to walk. And?

And your mind is more conscious then both LEGS, and CAR.

TLOP controls YOU controls LEGS
TLOP controls YOU controls CAR

Keep telling me there is no “God” MRC. I want to see how much bad karma you can rack up before you pop.

Frank, for the umpteenth time: I do call myself agnostic.

Then you should start acting like one.

Franko

21st February 2003, 11:36 AM

S.I.
2 things

I) Franko, I think you have mis understood MRC. He is saying that he very definitely is bound by the laws of physics, but that those laws are not 100% deterministic.

It doesn’t matter whether the laws of physics are deterministic or not. So long as those rules control your behavior (as opposed to your behavior controlling those rules) then you have no “free will”.

II) Franko, is there anywhere where I can read your ideas as a whole? I'm fairly new to the forum, although I've been lurking for a while, and would like to know exactly what it is you are arguing for. I've got a rough idea from your posts, but they are not really the best place to explain complex philosophies.

We are a rather secretive bunch. I often tell people we are like the mystery cults of ancient times.

But seriously, LD is more of a philosophy than a Religion. There are no public web sites that I know of devoted to LD. However, I’ve made almost 6000 posts on this forum alone, so there is plenty of information here, and I will be happy to answer any questions about me beliefs.

MRC_Hans

21st February 2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Franko
You are demonstrating your ignorance again. The fact is that you have no idea what consciousness actually is.

You are just a bunch of atoms MRC. Your “consciousness” is simply an algorithm, and it is an algorithm controlled by a larger more complex algorithm that you would identify as TLOP.

Oh? Then what with all this you have been telling us about Gravitons and souls and such? Not to mention Solipsism? You dont seem to really know what you believe, Frank.

You can pretend all you want that the laws of Physics don’t exist, you can even pretend that your actions are not governed by TLOP.

You seem to have some difficulty adjusting to the fact that I accept that I'm governed by tlop. Why is this?

I hope you keep believing it MRC, you think my argument against you is getting weakerover time?

Weaker? It seems to be completely unchanged. In spite of the fact that it has been refuted endlessly. But I guess its all you have ----

And your mind is more conscious then both LEGS, and CAR.

TLOP controls YOU controls LEGS
TLOP controls YOU controls CAR

Keep telling me there is no “God” MRC. I want to see how much bad karma you can rack up before you pop.

So tlop does not control my car?

Then you should start acting like one.

Do you believe I have free will to do that?

Hans

Franko

21st February 2003, 12:00 PM

Then you should start acting like one.

Do you believe I have free will to do that?

What difference does it make what I believe? You believe you have "free will" to do it -- don't you?

MRC_Hans

21st February 2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Franko

What difference does it make what I believe? You believe you have "free will" to do it -- don't you? So, you admit that you are giving me an advice that, according to your belief system, is impossible to follow?

Hans

Franko

21st February 2003, 12:30 PM

So, you admit that you are giving me an advice that, according to your belief system, is impossible to follow?

If it is your Destiny then you will find it impossible NOT to follow.

MRC_Hans

21st February 2003, 12:38 PM

So, you admit that you are giving me an advice that, according to your belief system, is impossible to follow or not follow?

Hans

Franko

21st February 2003, 01:12 PM

MRC,

Your actions are as deterministic as those of ANY computer program. You make your decisions based on the data you carry, and your core algorithm. The data you carry has been accumulated through the input of your experiences, all of which are encounters with other Gravitons in one form or another.

I am a Graviton. I am supplying you with an input of new information. This information will undoubtedly have an impact on the processing and output generated by your algorithm. Over time it is possible that this new information may actually trigger modifications to your algorithm itself.

But all of it will occur according to deterministic laws just like computer code being executed … one line after another.

MRC_Hans

24th February 2003, 11:42 PM

Just noticed this:

Originally posted by Franko
MRC,

Your actions are as deterministic as those of ANY computer program. You make your decisions based on the data you carry, and your core algorithm. The data you carry has been accumulated through the input of your experiences, all of which are encounters with other Gravitons in one form or another.

Well, we disagree here.

I am a Graviton.

Evidence?

I am supplying you with an input of new information.

Provide evidence of your special privelege as "Information Suplier".

This information will undoubtedly have an impact on the processing and output generated by your algorithm. Over time it is possible that this new information may actually trigger modifications to your algorithm itself.

Of course new information, all new information, will influence my behaviour, in my cosmology, that is, but how do you explain this under your Deterministic/Fatalistic system? Since my behaviour is determined by the initial state, how can it change?

But all of it will occur according to deterministic laws just like computer code being executed … one line after another.

Since you refuse to provide evidence for the real world being deterministic, do you expect me to take your word for it?

Hans