David Blaine underwater for 17 minutes

[zooterkin]

(Not quite sure where this belongs, but General Skepticism seems reasonable.)

David Blaine has apparently set a new record for not breathing underwater (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7376101.stm), live on Oprah.

Is this believable? Is 17 minutes really achievable without trickery, apart from breathing pure oxygen? Is it endurance, or magic? Is he going to be causing damage to his body in some way? And, finally, why does he do it?

[Gravy]

Blaine's business is fooling people. It's a safe bet that he did not hold his breath for 17 minutes, just as he did not sit in a box for 44 days without food.

He does stupid stunts because he's not very good at magic that takes skill and this is a way to keep himself in the public eye.

Penn Jillette and Criss Angel on Blaine's stunts: http://www.pennfans.net/view/Audio_Archive/PennRadio/The.Penn.Jillette.Radio.Show.2006.05.08/

[Dragoonster]

I think it's believable. Pure oxygen seems a bit like steroids as far as record-breaking goes though. Most world-record breath-holdings I've seen take place twenty feet underwater without prior oxygenation, so he could be "weaseling" that it's a recognized major record while altering the conditions to his favor

From various specials (which could obviously involve nonsense), it does seem like he or anyone in breath-holding could experience long-term detriment even if the attempt goes fine.

Why does he do it? Money, fame, maybe trickery/hoax, maybe legimately testing human limits. Probably a combination of all of these.

Needless to say, it would be better for us if this had taken place in a laboratory than on the Oprah show :)

[Dragoonster]

Blaine's business is fooling people. It's a safe bet that he did not hold his breath for 17 minutes, just as he did not sit in a box for 44 days without food.

He does stupid stunts because he's not very good at magic and this is a way to keep himself in the public eye.

Penn Jillette and Criss Angel on Blaine's stunts: http://www.pennfans.net/view/Audio_Archive/PennRadio/The.Penn.Jillette.Radio.Show.2006.05.08/

Well, here's his "peers" as far as his very particular record stands. Perhaps he's not good at magic, and happens to be very good at holding his breath after a prolonged ingestion of pure oxygen.

http://www.apneamania.com/code/worldrec_main.asp?typeID=spr&specID=amap

[Gravy]

I see they're claiming this as a world record. Who did the verifying? What controls were there?

[Gravy]

Well, here's his "peers" as far as his very particular record stands. Perhaps he's not good at magic, and happens to be very good at holding his breath after a prolonged ingestion of pure oxygen.

http://www.apneamania.com/code/worldrec_main.asp?typeID=spr&specID=amap

I doubt that any of those breath-holders are professional tricksters.

[Mick Houlahan]

I can believe it. I saw Blaine's TV specials - he didn't appear to be breathing then either.

[Dragoonster]

I see they're claiming this as a world record. Who did the verifying? What controls were there?

http://www.aida-international.org/ (apparently, I'm just googling as I read this, seems simple to find for someone who cares to)

I doubt that any of those breath-holders are professional tricksters.

Sure you want to commit to that? Blaine is now listed among them, and his record is only about 30 seconds more than the previous holder.

[Gravy]

http://www.aida-international.org/ (apparently, I'm just googling as I read this, seems simple to find for someone who cares to)No. The AIDA didn't verify it, and they list Guinness with a question mark. I want to know who verified it and what controls there were to eliminate cheating.

Sure you want to commit to that? Blaine is now listed among them, and his record is only about 30 seconds more than the previous holder.I don't rule it out. I want to know how rigorous the controls were.

[Gravy]

I can believe it. I saw Blaine's TV specials - he didn't appear to be breathing then either.Penn Jillette says he did the same thing, by cheating. Criss Angel has said he will beat Blaine at any stunt he wants to name, head to head, or he'll quit the business forever. Blaine has not accepted the challenge.

[Dragoonster]

No. The AIDA didn't verify it, and they list Guinness with a question mark. I want to know who verified it and what controls there were to eliminate cheating.

I don't rule it out. I want to know how rigorous the controls were.

Well I wasn't in the studio. AIDA apparently did verify it to their own standards enough to list it. Guinness is a separate entity that may take its own time to verify the verifying. I'm done.

ETA: Are you seriously weighing the "evidence" of Jillette and Criss saying something against an apparent objective organization? Sometimes skeptics are wrong, or not entirely right.

[chran]

I see they're claiming this as a world record. Who did the verifying? What controls were there? Dude, it was on Oprah, what more do you need? :covereyes

[Gravy]

Well I wasn't in the studio. AIDA apparently did verify it to their own standards enough to list it. Guinness is a separate entity that may take its own time to verify the verifying. I'm done.It's simply a name on a list. The AIDA puts an asterisk next to the records that they observed and verified. Blaine's is not one of them.

If I had to do a business deal with a known professional con-man, I would take extraordinary measures to ensure that I wasn't going to be conned. Anything less would be foolish. Agreed?

ETA: Are you seriously weighing the "evidence" of Jillette and Criss saying something against an apparent objective organization? Sometimes skeptics are wrong, or not entirely right.I take them seriously when they say these stunts can be done as tricks and not as legitimate physical feats. To what objective organization are you referring? If you have more details on how this was controlled, I'd be glad to read them.

[HarryKeogh]

And, finally, why does he do it?

For the same reason a musician spends hours a day mastering an instrument or an artist spends years honing his skill...for the women.

[Gravy]

Dude, it was on Oprah, what more do you need? :covereyesThere's no reason that a legitimate record couldn't be set on Oprah or in any other venue.

[uk_dave]

There's no reason that a legitimate record couldn't be set on Oprah or in any other venue.

Indeed. Oprah could become the new Roy Castle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_Breakers

If she could learn to play the trumpet.

[Gravy]

After reading a bit more, I'm inclined to believe this was legit. A New York Times reporter says he witnessed Blaine do 16:09 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/science/22tier.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) earlier in April, a feat that was supervised by the doctor for the U.S. Freediving team, and says he's been training extensively. He's coached by a free-dive instructor named – that's right, you heard it – Kirk Krack (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/david-blaine-sets-breath-holding-record/?hp).

[Stellafane]

I once personally held my breath for 4:47 (trying for 5 full minutes, just couldn't quite make it). With a few months of training I could probably have gotten up to 6 or 7 minutes. Add a chance to be famous, and I might be able to gut through another minute or so. It's not hard to imagine that if I could do that, the best in the world, wth many months of expert training, could do at least double or triple what I could do. So 17 minutes doesn't seem that out of reach.

On the other hand, the man is a professional fake, so that should probably be factored into the plausibility equation.

[Gravy]

I once personally held my breath for 4:47 (trying for 5 full minutes, just couldn't quite make it). With a few months of training I could probably have gotten up to 6 or 7 minutes. Add a chance to be famous, and I might be able to gut through another minute or so. It's not hard to imagine that if I could do that, the best in the world, wth many months of expert training, could do at least double or triple what I could do. So 17 minutes doesn't seem that out of reach.Keep in mind that the 17 minutes is after breathing pure oxygen for 20 minutes or more beforehand. The apneamania site says this about the static record without pure oxygen beforehand:
Static Apnea, but not official world record.
10'04", Stéphane Mifsud from France, 070712 in Hyèrs, France.
And Tom Sietas, from Germany have now done 10'08" in training, with withness this is of course. On the other hand, the man is a professional fake, so that should probably be factored into the plausibility equation.I think he's clearly at the highest level of this activity, but one way of cheating would be by "blood doping" to increase the body's oxygen-carrying capacity. I'll bet they didn't test him afterwards to see if his red blood cell count was within prescribed norms. Floyd Landis lost his Tour de France crown and several other cyclists were kicked out of the race in a 2006 blood doping scandal. I suppose a drug like EPO would also be beneficial.

[tkingdoll]

I'm calling fake, because he's a magician.

If he wants to do real endurance stunts, he might want to consider not having a career as a professional trickster beforehand.

If Joe Bloggs had done this, I'd still be skeptical. David Blaine, it's laughable.

Oh, and if anyone thinks 'but a doctor and a reporter were there!' is an adequate defense against a magician's methods, I'd refer them to the bearded guy at the top of this page and the reason he started this foundation.

[Wolfman]

I think there are a few separate questions here.

Is such a thing possible? The fact that others have, with extensive training and preparation, had times that are close to the time that Blaine accomplished would seem to indicate that it is certainly possible.

Is it possible to use trickery in accomplishing this? Again, I'm sure it is.

So the real question comes down not to if it is something that Blaine could have done, but rather a question of whether he accomplished it via legitimate needs, or via trickery. And, given the lack of involvement of someone with the skill or knowledge to eliminate possible deception, it would seem pretty much impossible to come to a definitive conclusion one way or the other.

[Gravy]

I'm calling fake, because he's a magician.

If he wants to do real endurance stunts, he might want to consider not having a career as a professional trickster beforehand.

If Joe Bloggs had done this, I'd still be skeptical. David Blaine, it's laughable.Judging from several articles, I disagree. Holding his breath seems to be something he's good at and has practiced since he was a kid. He appears to have been training extensively and to be doing legitimate free-dives. If his trainers are lying about that they're going to find students scarce.

It's one thing to say "I sat in box for 44 days without food" without allowing verification but without making claims to some sort of record.

It's another thing entirely to claim a world record in an event that is competitive and that people put themselves at risk in attempting. To have that be revealed a fraud would be a terrible blot on his (admittedly discounted) name. I don't think he'd risk that disgrace. I wouldn't rule out him having incremental help from performance enhancing methods like I mentioned above.

[Beerina]

After reading a bit more, I'm inclined to believe this was legit. A New York Times reporter says he witnessed Blaine do 16:09 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/science/22tier.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) earlier in April, a feat that was supervised by the doctor for the U.S. Freediving team, and says he's been training extensively. He's coached by a free-dive instructor named – that's right, you heard it – Kirk Krack (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/david-blaine-sets-breath-holding-record/?hp).

Which is odd, given the guy who has the world record just broke his own world record a few days ago with a time of 15:xx.

It might be possible to cheat with a tiny cylinder of oxygen (like used with CO2 in BB guns) in the back of your mouth or throat, but the real problem would be somehow preventing more than a few bubbles escaping from your face during that.

...assuming no crazy body modifications like a hole under his collar into his throat that cycles air in and out. While extreme, that also would be doable.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Just two years ago, Blaine failed to break the record (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801681.html) when it was only 9 minutes (of course that disagrees with the times & dates posted on the apneamania site...)
Why can he suddenly hold his breath for twice as long as he could then?

Granted, that attempt was after a week long "living" underwater, and he was handcuffed and had to escape as part of the gimmick making it far more difficult than the recent performance.

Ahh... I found this on the site, perhaps that's with no oxygen?
Static Apnea, but not official world record.
10'04", Stéphane Mifsud from France, 070712 in Hyèrs, France.
And Tom Sietas, from Germany have now done 10'08" in training, with withness this is of course.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Which is odd, given the guy who has the world record just broke his own world record a few days ago with a time of 15:xx.


That also disagrees with the apneamania site:

17'04", David Blaine from USA, 080430 in Chicago, USA (Guinness?)
16'32", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 080210 in St. Gallen, SUI *
16'13", Tom Sietas from Germany, 080223 in Madrid, ESP (Guinness)
16'04", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 070210 in St. Gallen, SUI *
14'12", Tom Sietas from Germany, 060105 in Milano, ITA (Guinness)
(this with 25 min of pure oxygene inhale before start)
13'05", Bill Strömberg from Sweden, 041003 in Lausanne, SUI *
(this with only 4 min of pure oxygen inhale before start)
12'47", Giancarlo Bellingrath from Italy, 030615 in Naples, ITA
12'34", Gianluca Genoni from Italy, 020511 in Busto Arsizio, ITA
(* = with AIDA judges verifying the performance)

[Gravy]

Just two years ago, Blaine failed to break the record (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801681.html) when it was only 9 minutes (of course that disagrees with the times & dates posted on the apneamania site...)
Why can he suddenly hold his breath for twice as long as he could then?

Granted, that attempt was after a week long "living" underwater, and he was handcuffed and had to escape as part of the gimmick making it far more difficult than the recent performance.

Ahh... I found this on the site, perhaps that's with no oxygen?
Static Apnea, but not official world record.
10'04", Stéphane Mifsud from France, 070712 in Hyèrs, France.
And Tom Sietas, from Germany have now done 10'08" in training, with withness this is of course.Yes, the 9 minutes was without pure oxygen beforehand.

[Dragoonster]

It's simply a name on a list. The AIDA puts an asterisk next to the records that they observed and verified. Blaine's is not one of them.

If I had to do a business deal with a known professional con-man, I would take extraordinary measures to ensure that I wasn't going to be conned. Anything less would be foolish. Agreed?

Yeah. I missed that asterix thing, looks like they trust Guinness enough to take their place, but the jury is still out on this attempt.

I take them seriously when they say these stunts can be done as tricks and not as legitimate physical feats. To what objective organization are you referring? If you have more details on how this was controlled, I'd be glad to read them.

I don't, and apologize for my snippiness. But I don't think Jillette and Criss have any more standing here than you, me, or Randi. If they want to go on Oprah under the same conditions, there's nothing stopping them. They're all famous and could get the spot. I don't see the use in challenging Blaine to challenge them first--just do it instead of saying you could do it. Of course we could all do it if we cheated, so they can go on with the same Guinness or AIDA or whoever was there looking--if they succeed without the judges seeing the cheat, that's a big big knock on Blaine.

Maybe they will, I'd love to see it. Til they do I'm tempted to think it was legit (with the caveat of the "steroid" analogy, as you say he may have doped with more than just the oxygen beforehand).

[tkingdoll]

Judging from several articles, I disagree. Holding his breath seems to be something he's good at and has practiced since he was a kid. He appears to have been training extensively and to be doing legitimate free-dives. If his trainers are lying about that they're going to find students scarce.

It's one thing to say "I sat in box for 44 days without food" without allowing verification but without making claims to some sort of record.

It's another thing entirely to claim a world record in an event that is competitive and that people put themselves at risk in attempting. To have that be revealed a fraud would be a terrible blot on his (admittedly discounted) name. I don't think he'd risk that disgrace. I wouldn't rule out him having incremental help from performance enhancing methods like I mentioned above.

His first (failed) attempt also involved escaping from chains. Do you think he was relying on lock-picking skills, or trick locks?

[Kilgore Trout]

His first (failed) attempt also involved escaping from chains. Do you think he was relying on lock-picking skills, or trick locks?

I saw that performance on TV and whatever he was using, he was having serious difficulty trying to get them off.

[tkingdoll]

I saw that performance on TV and whatever he was using, he was having serious difficulty trying to get them off.

LOL.

Consider what you think you saw:

he was having serious difficulty trying to get them off.

and what you actually saw:

he appeared to be having serious difficulty trying to get them off.

Now think about how that act would look if he'd slipped his chains in two seconds flat. It would look rubbish. Magicianship is showmanship. If it doesn't look like a struggle, it's not a good show.

Oh man, I can't believe I'm having to explain this. Afterwards, I'll pop over to a Derren Brown thread and explain why he's not really using reverse psychology to guess which hand the coin is in.

[ponderingturtle]

I'm calling fake, because he's a magician.

If he wants to do real endurance stunts, he might want to consider not having a career as a professional trickster beforehand.

If Joe Bloggs had done this, I'd still be skeptical. David Blaine, it's laughable.

Oh, and if anyone thinks 'but a doctor and a reporter were there!' is an adequate defense against a magician's methods, I'd refer them to the bearded guy at the top of this page and the reason he started this foundation.

Are you suggesting professional scientists can be fooled by a trickster?

[tkingdoll]

Are you suggesting professional scientists can be fooled by a trickster?

Nah, that could never happen! :covereyes

[ponderingturtle]

Nah, that could never happen! :covereyes

Sure just ask Peter Phillips.

Well it might have been better to ask him before the details of project alpha came to light...

[CFLarsen]

Which is odd, given the guy who has the world record just broke his own world record a few days ago with a time of 15:xx.

It might be possible to cheat with a tiny cylinder of oxygen (like used with CO2 in BB guns) in the back of your mouth or throat, but the real problem would be somehow preventing more than a few bubbles escaping from your face during that.

...assuming no crazy body modifications like a hole under his collar into his throat that cycles air in and out. While extreme, that also would be doable.

Stray thought on the bubbles thing.

Would just one gulp of pure oxygen from a hidden source help, if he swallowed the air after using it?

I'm not saying he would hold for the whole period of time on one gulp of oxygen. But couldn't it help him pass the limit, even a few seconds?

What about doping?

[CFLarsen]

Ah!

Put a rubber ball inside your armpits and block a lot of the blood flow to your arms. That way, you won't be spending oxygen for your arms.

That could be a substantial help.

[William Parcher]

Stray thought on the bubbles thing.

Would just one gulp of pure oxygen from a hidden source help, if he swallowed the air after using it?

I'm not saying he would hold for the whole period of time on one gulp of oxygen. But couldn't it help him pass the limit, even a few seconds?

What about doping?

Swallow the oxygen from a hidden source to hide the bubbles? OK. But how about this... the stomach is the hidden source of oxygen.

He intentionally swallows oxygen before submerging. Then at some point while underwater, he belches it into his mouth. Then draws that into his lungs.

[Rasmus]

He intentionally swallows oxygen before submerging. Then at some point while underwater, he belches it into his mouth. Then draws that into his lungs.

How much air can you hold in your mouth? I don't think that's enough for any actual breathing. (Try it, it doesn't feel like breathing.) I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that you couldn't even get such an amount of air to reach your lungs.

[William Parcher]

I tried a version of it before posting. I filled my mouth with air (not from a belch), then pinched my nose. I was able to inhale this air into my lungs.

I'm not fully knowledgeable about the science of breath-holding, nor the rules of this contested endeavor. I think I do understand that there are two problems facing a breath-holder...

1) Cellular respiration based on available oxygen (from any source).
2) Carbon dioxide accumulation and its physiological effects.

Are the contestants allowed to exhale while underwater? Are exhalations closely observed for indications of possible cheating?

[Kilgore Trout]

LOL.

Consider what you think you saw:



and what you actually saw:



Now think about how that act would look if he'd slipped his chains in two seconds flat. It would look rubbish. Magicianship is showmanship. If it doesn't look like a struggle, it's not a good show.

Oh man, I can't believe I'm having to explain this. Afterwards, I'll pop over to a Derren Brown thread and explain why he's not really using reverse psychology to guess which hand the coin is in.

Considering he failed I think he really was having difficulty removing them. If showmanship involves failing miserably, I think that needs to be looked into. I don't think showmanship involves making the audience think he's having trouble and then later failing at the task.

[William Parcher]

I saw that performance on TV and whatever he was using, he was having serious difficulty trying to get them off.

Considering he failed I think he really was having difficulty removing them. If showmanship involves failing miserably, I think that needs to be looked into. I don't think showmanship involves making the audience think he's having trouble and then later failing at the task.

Was this program truly live or taped?

[lucan]

Was his tank under pressure? ie a hyperbaric chamber.

[Kilgore Trout]

Was this program truly live or taped?

Supposedly live and in front of a crowd in New York.

[tkingdoll]

Considering he failed I think he really was having difficulty removing them. If showmanship involves failing miserably, I think that needs to be looked into. I don't think showmanship involves making the audience think he's having trouble and then later failing at the task.

It set him up perfectly for the successful attempt. One aspect of the stunt appears to hinder him, so remove it for the next attempt and lo! he succeeds, where succeeding first time would look highly suspect!

Amazing. Not at all typical of magic for, oh, quite some time now.

If you think a magician uses genuine shackles then there's no point in discussing this any further.

[Kilgore Trout]

And if you're saying a magician can never have a problem being under duress and/or having faulty equipment, I agree, there's no point.

[William Parcher]

Supposedly live and in front of a crowd in New York.

Supposedly? Live is live.

Did this "failure" cause him to lose money? Did it negatively affect his career or income? What kind of "failure" could now cause David Blaine to meet skid row?

Blaine to his Agent: I need a new career boost and some fresh cash. OK Dave, set up a crash and spend some time in a hospital. Then do another gig after you get out. You are sexy beast Lazurus Phoenix. Your accountant will count the money.

Don't confuse Blaine with Spears. One is a calculated fall; the other is... well... a fall.

[William Parcher]

And if you're saying a magician can never have a problem being under duress and/or having faulty equipment, I agree, there's no point.

They could have a genuine physical "problem" or equipment failure. But this would only happen after much practice and trial runs. Blaine could even profit from suing a faulty equipment manufacturer, if such a thing were to occur.

[Dragoonster]

It set him up perfectly for the successful attempt. One aspect of the stunt appears to hinder him, so remove it for the next attempt and lo! he succeeds, where succeeding first time would look highly suspect!

I don't know if this is the same event being discussed, but the one I saw was highly publicized and on public TV where he was in a big glass water bubble. He tried to hold his breath for 9 minutes or something but only made 7 or something. Don't remember the cuffs.

Your theory would work except I'm imagining the Oprah audience was much smaller than the audience where he failed. His bubble thing was pretty big news, with headlines on the internets, and a month-long immersion (and media coverage) to set it up. People who'd never heard of him watched, it was akin to Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty "dissapear". First I heard about this Oprah thing was this thread. If he was failing in order to set a future success up, he seems to have a reverse notion of the value of publicity for the events.

For that event I was mainly watching his stomach and chest for expansion--can't breath without flow over one's lungs as far as I know, whereas if you still have some gas that's been depleted of oxygen you could still send a couple bubbles on exhale at any time. Didn't see any chest expansion or stomach movement.

[Kilgore Trout]

I say supposedly because I was not there and just saw it on TV like I said.

I'm not saying it wasn't staged, faked, or some elaborate performance. I also think the failure might even have been intended to generate interest, so it isn't the case that he always succeeds.

I'm just saying the knee-jerk reaction that since he's a magician everything he does is premeditated and done without fail is a little absurd. Yes, it is his business to trick and fool people -- it doesn't follow that absolutely everything he does has this intention.

[William Parcher]

If he was failing in order to set a future success up, he seems to have a reverse notion of the value of publicity for the events.

This "failure" is not even a failure as defined by working stiffs (us). Blaine would have profited immensely from this (or any) failure. It's all about contracts, promotions and media deals. This is mass media entertainment and genuine failure only occurs if nobody watches the show. Hell, even that might not stop profits because some prospect contracts are binding in spite of actual audience interest. Blaine is Big Time. Big Time is Big Money. His "failure" reaped huge profits for many entities including David himself. What kind of failure is that?

We could discuss the "failure" of losing a Heavyweight Boxing match, or demolishing a car in a Formula One race. Does this actually cause the fighter or driver to have to whip out their checkbook and reduce their net worth? Hell no. Working stiffs need to adopt a paradigm shift when trying to evaluate "failures" of gifted individuals who are paid to provide entertainment.

[Moochie]

I would have much rather read "David Blaine Discovers Cure for Cancer in 17 Years."

M.

[William Parcher]

Deepak Chopra should have already done that by now.

[Azrael 5]

Penn Jillette says he did the same thing, by cheating. Criss Angel has said he will beat Blaine at any stunt he wants to name, head to head, or he'll quit the business forever. Blaine has not accepted the challenge.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58xyjOFkpxk ;)

[William Parcher]

Penn Jillette says he did the same thing, by cheating. Criss Angel has said he will beat Blaine at any stunt he wants to name, head to head, or he'll quit the business forever. Blaine has not accepted the challenge.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58xyjOFkpxk ;)

Blaine could stand to profit nicely from such a challenge even if he knew he would lose. Get the agents together and calculate the millions. Teller could referee the show and he would make millions too.

The only question is if Blaine and his agent want to enter into the world of conjurer comedy and something like "street rapper battles".

Remember that the "loser" is already contracted to earn more than us working stiffs will make in our entire lifetimes. Winners and losers are always secondary to how many people watch the show. Everyone makes money. Everyone is a winner. Capitalism ho. Cable Television. Bring it on!

[Dragoonster]

This "failure" is not even a failure as defined by working stiffs (us). Blaine would have profited immensely from this (or any) failure. It's all about contracts, promotions and media deals. This is mass media entertainment and genuine failure only occurs if nobody watches the show. Hell, even that might not stop profits because some prospect contracts are binding in spite of actual audience interest. Blaine is Big Time. Big Time is Big Money. His "failure" reaped huge profits for many entities including David himself. What kind of failure is that?

Yeah but my point is it's hard to figure how a failure on a much larger stage (the NY bubble stunt) would be a financial or PR net when it's follow-up is a success on a much smaller stage (Oprah show). His failure wasn't an immediate loss becuase the coverage was already there at the time. But it could have led to a lower profile, and less revenue in the future. Btw, the failure I'm talking about is not holding his breath not long enough, not the failure in lock-picking (which I think he succeeded on).

If he'd broken that non-oxygenated record in the bubble, it would have been big news. The attempt itself was big news. His supposed breaking of the record on Oprah hasn't been on any news programs or internet general sources I've seen. Nor was the attempt.

We could discuss the "failure" of losing a Heavyweight Boxing match, or demolishing a car in a Formula One race. Does this actually cause the fighter or driver to have to whip out their checkbook and reduce their net worth? Hell no. Working stiffs need to adopt a paradigm shift when trying to evaluate "failures" of gifted individuals who are paid to provide entertainment.

True but I think you're reading too much into this. Blaine appears to have some genuine skill in breath-holding. A claim that his most recent record-setting performance wasn't genuine because he purposefully failed a similar event years prior for which theirs no evidence he purposefully did so in order to set up this most recent success on a much smaller stage in order to make more net income or advance his career/profile/entertaining farther than if he had succeeded in the prior event or both events...seems desperate.

[Gravy]

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58xyjOFkpxk ;)That's a funny bit. Pretty easy to see how it could be accomplished without breath-holding, IMO.

With a snorkel arrangement routed from the nostrils through the mask strap, down the back of the neck, and up the jacket sleeve to the air. The water appears to be murky, and when Teller is turned around we don't see his neck, which could hide such a tube.

I suppose a rebreather (of the type that doesn't produce bubbles) could be similarly attached, but that would be much more complex and the rebreathers I know of are bulky and would be difficult to hide (nor do I know if the in/out valve could be effective in a size that would fit in the nostrils). Perhaps one that was only needed for a few minutes could be made smaller. In this case, since Teller's arm is always above the water, a snorkel arrangement would be far simpler.I haven't seen any video or photos of Blaine's attempt, but I assume he wasn't wearing a dress suit and a device that could hide a breathing apparatus. :) I think faking such a thing in clear water, exposed to view on every side, would be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible.

[Dragoonster]

Here's a series of his shirtless, maskless, suitless (unless the suit was invisible, I wouldn't put it past him!) bubble time, the first picture that'll show being the beginning of his breath-holding (if BBC photographers and/or caption-writers are to be trusted).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/gallery/blaine.shtml?select=07#main

The record was 8:58 and he only managed 7:08.

[BenBurch]

A thought how to cheat on this.

Evacuate your stomach. Then force as much pure O2 into it as you can. Burp up O2 when you have exhausted whatever you were able to force into your lungs. For extra credit, actually put a gas cylinder in your stomach with a slow-bleed needle valve.

[RichardR]

I'm puzzled by this "breathing pure oxygen first" idea. I don't see how that would have helped much. According to Harvard Health Publications (http://www.health.harvard.edu/diagnostic-tests/oxygen-saturation-test.htm):

Normally, when red blood cells pass through the lungs, 95%-100% of them are loaded, or "saturated," with oxygen to carry.

So at most, he would increase his blood oxygen saturation from 95% to 100%.

[Modified]

I'm puzzled by this "breathing pure oxygen first" idea. I don't see how that would have helped much. According to Harvard Health Publications (http://www.health.harvard.edu/diagnostic-tests/oxygen-saturation-test.htm):



So at most, he would increase his blood oxygen saturation from 95% to 100%.

I suspect you are correct. If you switched from hyperventilating air to pure oxygen one minute before the start, it would be little different from using pure oxygen for the entire prep time.

[Gravy]

I'm puzzled by this "breathing pure oxygen first" idea. I don't see how that would have helped much. According to Harvard Health Publications (http://www.health.harvard.edu/diagnostic-tests/oxygen-saturation-test.htm):

So at most, he would increase his blood oxygen saturation from 95% to 100%.Since the effect on breath holding of breathing pure oxygen is quite dramatic, I suspect the difference is what's being stored in the lungs. Air is >80% nitrogen. Saturate the lungs with pure oxygen and you've got more fuel for the hemoglobin to distribute. It may take time to displace all the nitrogen with oxygen.

[supercorgi]

Blaine's business is fooling people. It's a safe bet that he did not hold his breath for 17 minutes, just as he did not sit in a box for 44 days without food.

He does stupid stunts because he's not very good at magic that takes skill and this is a way to keep himself in the public eye.

Penn Jillette and Criss Angel on Blaine's stunts: http://www.pennfans.net/view/Audio_Archive/PennRadio/The.Penn.Jillette.Radio.Show.2006.05.08/

Wow, it's pretty bad when your peers don't even respect you. Blaine is just sad - I haven't ever liked him. I don't care for David Copperfield and his mega-tricks either - so unbelievable that it's clear, blatant trickery.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I never liked Blaine because all he did was do five dollar magic tricks that I knew as a ten year old, but he did them on the street. Ohhh. And then he used camera tricks to make him appear more impressive.

Oh god, and when he did that ridiculously simple levitation trick and acted like it just completely and utterly exhausted him :rolleyes: .

And these stunts... I mean, sure, they could be interesting. But how could I possibly believe them?

And then you have the people who think that he and Angel do real magic :rolleyes: .

[Dragoonster]

I never liked Blaine because all he did was do five dollar magic tricks that I knew as a ten year old, but he did them on the street. Ohhh. And then he used camera tricks to make him appear more impressive.

Oh god, and when he did that ridiculously simple levitation trick and acted like it just completely and utterly exhausted him :rolleyes: .

I agree. He's a lousy magician and a terrible performer from what I've seen. I can't stand his wooden personality.

And these stunts... I mean, sure, they could be interesting. But how could I possibly believe them?

Well, it's a very straightforward stunt with a clear time goal, not a magic trick. And his times are close to non-magician breath-holders, if you believe they're legit you'd have to believe the stunt would be humanly possible (unlike levitating or making an airplane dissapear). Maybe Blaine is both a charlatan at magic and a legit athlete.

ETA: To clarify a bit, what we're skeptical about is whether he set the record/performed the stunt legit; not whether the record/stunt is currently possible. It pretty clearly is possible from the others who have held their breath for nearly as long. If "Peter Colat" got his record back in six months, we wouldn't bat an eye.

[Matlatzinca]

Since the effect on breath holding of breathing pure oxygen is quite dramatic, I suspect the difference is what's being stored in the lungs. Air is >80% nitrogen. Saturate the lungs with pure oxygen and you've got more fuel for the hemoglobin to distribute. It may take time to displace all the nitrogen with oxygen.

That's exactly right. The equations governing this are relatively straightforward. So as not to die, you need to maintain a steady supply of oxygen to the brain and heart.
The minimum quantity of oxygen would be determined by a body's minimum VO2, or minute oxygen consumption. Most athletes try to MAXimize VO2 by training their bodies to perform maximum energy output/consumption. By contrast divers/breath holders want to minimize their VO2 by maximizing diving reflexes (slowing heart rate, perhaps learning to change circulatory patterns). Cold water might help, though not if it is so cold that it induces shivering, which would raise your VO2.
The amount of Oxygen your body can hold is linked primarily to 2 "holding chambers:" 1) your lungs and 2) your circulating red blood cells (specifically the amount of hemoglobin). The way to increase the O2 reservoir in your lungs is indeed by breathing pure O2 (maybe increased by hyperbaric O2? I'm not sure on this point) and increasing your lung capacity. A really good functional lung capacity is on the order of 6-7 liters of O2.
So, if your minimum minute O2 consumption can be reduced to somewhere around 0.3L/min and you can store up to 6 L O2 in your lungs, you could theoretically hold your breath for up to 18 min.
Just for reference, athletes with phenomenal performance (Lance Armstrong, e.g.) have a VO2 Max of up to 80 mL/kg/min or around 6 L/min for a 75kg person. Basal metabolism consumes around 0.25 L/min of oxygen.

[deep]

Based on everything I've read, this sounds legitimate to me. As mentioned before, Blaine was using a tactic where he would force extra air (pure oxygen) into his lungs by "swallowing" before going under, plus he was attempting to lower his heart rate.

I believe that without pure oxygen, the record is only 8 minutes or so.

Staying underwater for as long as humanly possible is definitely one of an illusionist's core competencies, so that explains why David Blaine would put so much effort into perfecting it. I would be very surprised if this wasn't legit.

[Beerina]

Since the effect on breath holding of breathing pure oxygen is quite dramatic, I suspect the difference is what's being stored in the lungs. Air is >80% nitrogen. Saturate the lungs with pure oxygen and you've got more fuel for the hemoglobin to distribute. It may take time to displace all the nitrogen with oxygen.

In other words, his "deep breath", then going under, could have his lungs filled with 100% oxygen (or whatever % his lungs could take without corroding or bursting into flame), thus giving a lot more O2 to exchange for awhile. I didn't think of that.

[Beerina]

I would be very surprised if it was. The chance of a professional magician also being the lucky body and lung type to maximize this is very small.

Remember the Right Stuff movie, with those guys sitting around blowing out for lung volume? The ones at the top were the astronauts who ran 5+ miles a day in the thin air of Denver or other mountain regions.

One of those guys should destroy this record. They haven't, so therefore the (previous) record is probably held by such a guy, would be my prediction. Someone with a giant lung capacity for whatever reason.

[deep]

I would be very surprised if it was. The chance of a professional magician also being the lucky body and lung type to maximize this is very small.

Remember the Right Stuff movie, with those guys sitting around blowing out for lung volume? The ones at the top were the astronauts who ran 5+ miles a day in the thin air of Denver or other mountain regions.


Right.. that was a movie from the early 1980s, and this is reality. Big difference.

Also, this wasn't an ability Blaine was born with, and it's also not all about lung capacity. He had fasted before the attempt to make sure his stomach would be empty (allowing his lungs to hold more air), he took in extra air by "swallowing" up to one quart of extra oxygen right before he went under water (i.e., glossopharyngeal insufflation), and he trained himself to limit/ignore the natural muscle spasms that occur as a result of carbon dioxide buildup.

Those are the same techniques used by world-class free divers.


One of those guys should destroy this record. They haven't, so therefore the (previous) record is probably held by such a guy, would be my prediction. Someone with a giant lung capacity for whatever reason


Again, it's not all about lung capacity. I would suggest you conduct your research in reality, instead of a movie that was released back in 1983.

[Stellafane]

Based on everything I've read, this sounds legitimate to me. As mentioned before, Blaine was using a tactic where he would force extra air (pure oxygen) into his lungs by "swallowing" before going under, plus he was attempting to lower his heart rate.

I believe that without pure oxygen, the record is only 8 minutes or so.

Staying underwater for as long as humanly possible is definitely one of an illusionist's core competencies, so that explains why David Blaine would put so much effort into perfecting it. I would be very surprised if this wasn't legit.


I tend to agree. If someone with no training can hold their breath for almost 5 minutes for the sheer hell of it, it's not hard to imagine a highly trained professional, using all the technological tricks and advantages at his disposal, in a career-defining stunt on national TV, could pull off 17 minutes or so. True, Blaine is a professional magician. Then again, everyone seems to believe he's a lousy magician, so maybe that's not quite as big a factor as it would be for say Penn Jillette or Criss Angel.

[ben m]

It might be possible to cheat with a tiny cylinder of oxygen (like used with CO2 in BB guns) in the back of your mouth or throat, but the real problem would be somehow preventing more than a few bubbles escaping from your face during that.


Hmm, you could have a small box of soda lime in your mouth, too. It would sop up the CO2; it'd be like a miniature SCUBA rebreather; I think that a small volume of CaOH actually sops up a very large volume of gas.

Of course, if he could do that, I demand that his next act include an ultra-magnetic wristwatch, an exploding pen, and a Lotus Esprit that turns into a submarine.

[Gravy]

I would be very surprised if it was. The chance of a professional magician also being the lucky body and lung type to maximize this is very small.It's not about luck. This is a skill anyone can train for and improve at, and that Blaine has apparently practiced since childhood. You mentioned astronauts developing lung capacity by training at high altitude, but don't mention that Blaine was sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber leading up to this event.

I'll bet you can't come up with a plausible way of faking this. His coach, who is the top person in the sport, doesn't think he did. Even if it were possible, what would Blaine have to gain if he were caught faking a world record in a legitimate physical feat? Do you think he's next going to claim the marathon record by sneaking onto the course halfway through?

[BenBurch]

... Someone with a giant lung capacity for whatever reason.

That would be me... I am unusually long in the torso. So much so that they need to shoot two films to get a chest X-ray... So there is a LOT of variability in lung volume.

Another way to cheat occurred to me just now; blood doping.

Just save autologous red cells and just before your stunt have them re-infused.

Suddenly, you have 30% more red blood cells to carry oxygen.

[Gravy]

That would be me... I am unusually long in the torso. So much so that they need to shoot two films to get a chest X-ray... So there is a LOT of variability in lung volume.

Another way to cheat occurred to me just now; blood doping.

Just save autologous red cells and just before your stunt have them re-infused.

Suddenly, you have 30% more red blood cells to carry oxygen.I had mentioned the possible use of doping and EPO, but you're still talking about gains of relatively small percentages. Those methods of cheating aren't going to make champions out of chumps. It would be interesting to know how efficient doping would be for a sedentary activity like breath-holding, since it greatly thickens the blood, and one goal of breath-holders is to reduce the heart rate as much as possible. Endurance athletes who practice doping face the risks of heart attack and stroke because the heart has to work harder to push the blood, and because clots form more easily.

[Modified]

Someone with a giant lung capacity for whatever reason.

I wonder what the effect of just getting really skinny would be? Given enough time, I could probably drop half my muscle mass and still be relatively healthy, and my lungs would be the same size.

[Gravy]

I wonder what the effect of just getting really skinny would be? Given enough time, I could probably drop half my muscle mass and still be relatively healthy, and my lungs would be the same size.If you've ever seen a group of world-class marathoners in person, it's almost shocking how small and skinny most of them are. They don't look like they could make it to the end of the block. All lungs and heart.

[Beerina]

Right.. that was a movie from the early 1980s, and this is reality. Big difference.

So the times and lung capacities from the movie weren't reflective of the reality of those actual guys? That's a new one on me.


Those are the same techniques used by world-class free divers.

...

Again, it's not all about lung capacity. I would suggest you conduct your research in reality, instead of a movie that was released back in 1983.

A man with a giant lung capacity can use all these "techniques", as you describe them, and gain an even greater advantage than just some average guy.

Or was this aspect lost on you? Well, now it isn't.

[Beerina]

It's not about luck. This is a skill anyone can train for and improve at, and that Blaine has apparently practiced since childhood. You mentioned astronauts developing lung capacity by training at high altitude, but don't mention that Blaine was sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber leading up to this event.

Wouldn't that tend to drive his lung capacity in the wrong direction, then?


I'll bet you can't come up with a plausible way of faking this. His coach, who is the top person in the sport, doesn't think he did.

Gods, you give them eyes, but they cannot see.

When "So-and-so, top physicist, doesn't think John Edwards could fake this" is spoken, what does Randi reply with?

[Beerina]

If you've ever seen a group of world-class marathoners in person, it's almost shocking how small and skinny most of them are. They don't look like they could make it to the end of the block. All lungs and heart.

That's more for not carrying around weight with them, than for reducing oxygen consumption.

[Gravy]

Wouldn't that tend to drive his lung capacity in the wrong direction, then?Yes, sorry. I meant hypoxic.

That's more for not carrying around weight with them, than for reducing oxygen consumption.Same thing.

[Jeff Corey]

...When "So-and-so, top physicist, doesn't think John Edwards could fake this" is spoken, what does Randi reply with?
"Of course he's a fake, he's a politician. So is John Edward, who isn't."

[Beerina]

"Of course he's a fake, he's a politician. So is John Edward, who isn't."

Try to make an s out of me, will ya!

[BenBurch]

Try to make an s out of me, will ya!

:dl:

[cj419666]

come on now its not like ther was scientists and magicians around to try to detect trickery of course he didnt hold his breath that long its a performance you all know this tho

[Calcas]

Blaine's business is fooling people. It's a safe bet that he did not hold his breath for 17 minutes, just as he did not sit in a box for 44 days without food.

He does stupid stunts because he's not very good at magic that takes skill and this is a way to keep himself in the public eye.

Penn Jillette and Criss Angel on Blaine's stunts: http://www.pennfans.net/view/Audio_Archive/PennRadio/The.Penn.Jillette.Radio.Show.2006.05.08/


I just had to comment on the link.

Fabulous show with Penn (and Angel as a guest) talking about Blaine and his stunts. Penn cracks me up.

They also said how they would hold their breath in a show for 11 minutes...night in and night out.

Of course Penn followed with, "It's a trick!"

Duh.

[tiger]

(Not quite sure where this belongs, but General Skepticism seems reasonable.)

David Blaine has apparently set a new record for not breathing underwater (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7376101.stm), live on Oprah.

Is this believable? Is 17 minutes really achievable without trickery, apart from breathing pure oxygen? Is it endurance, or magic? Is he going to be causing damage to his body in some way? And, finally, why does he do it?

He's a great performer and he's a hardcore skeptic of the paranormal, make no mistake the guy is really good at what he does. Keep in mind that James Randi is a magician also. Blaine has the ability to do alot of things very very well and he's very entertaining. I have a feeling it can be done but you would have to train alot and have alot of self control but my moneys on it's a trick.

[Kuko 4000]

BUMP!

David Blaine: How I held my breath for 17 min @ TED Talks.


XFnGhrC_3Gs

First things first, I've never liked his TV personality. I respect and love the idea that he and his team put forward on TV about focusing on the people who are experiencing the wonder of the trick instead of focusing solely on the trick itself (imo, Derren Brown's show mastered this approach). And even though I don't like his persona, I've pretty much always enjoyed his TV shows - this is because I love magic and don't own any 10 dollar magic books. I haven't followed David Blaine that much, I guess I've seen 4-5 of his specials and some of the Street Magic stuff.

Ok, I saw this TED Talk just a couple of days ago. I thought he was ********ting from beginning to the end. It all seems like a big performance, and I think TED is the wrong place for that (even though there's lots of questionable stuff among all the good ones), which is why I got interested.

Here's something I've found:

On this talk @ Florida Freedive Symposium, Kirk Krack mentions that during one of the training sessions David Blaine held his breath for more than 20 minutes* (he goes on to say that David Blaine's "heart rate was dropping to the teens" when holding breath):

lTPnUzqlKzc&feature=related

* Up to 30 minutes of inhaling or hyperventilating on 100% oxygen is usually permitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_apnea#With_pure_oxygen


The current Guinness record with pure oxygen is:

19:21, Peter Colat, 14 Feb 2010, St. Gallen, Switzerland Guinness

David Blaine is listed in fifth place in that Wikipedia article with a time 17:04.


The current world record for static apnea is:

11:35, Stéphane Mifsud, 8 June 2009, La Crau, France

David Blaine's record attempt (he allegedly blacked out after about 7 minutes):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Blaine#Drowned_Alive

He concluded this event by attempting to hold his breath underwater to break the then-current world record of 8 minutes, 58 seconds held by Tom Sietas for static apnea—holding one's breath without the aid of breathing 100% oxygen beforehand,[38] although Blaine's attempt would not have qualified as static apnea under AIDA International rules.[39] To his producers request to make the show more exciting, Blaine attempted to free himself from handcuffs and chains put on him upon coming out after the week in the sphere.[40] He seemed to have trouble escaping from the last of the handcuffs. Around the 7 minute mark, he showed some signs of distress. He was pulled up and out of the water by his support divers after 7 minutes and 20 seconds underwater—one minute and fifty seconds short of his goal.[41] Although he did not take home the record for breath holding, he was called “an everyday hero for an everyday age,” by The Boston Globe,[42] and The Washington Post stated, “Blaine represented an opportunity to see something unbelievable.”[43]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Blaine#Guinness_World_Records

After failing to surpass the then-current record of unassisted static apnea in his previous attempt Drowned Alive,[46][47] Blaine appeared on the April 30, 2008 episode of The Oprah Winfrey Show, announcing that he would attempt to break the Guinness World Record for oxygen assisted static apnea set by Peter Colat of Switzerland on February 10, 2008.
Before entering his eighteen-hundred gallon water tank, Blaine spent 23 minutes inhaling pure oxygen; up to 30 minutes of "oxygen hyperventilation" is allowed under guidelines.[48] His heart rate remained above one hundred beats per minute during much of the attempt, rising to one hundred and twenty-four bpm. in the fifteenth minute. A faster heart rate increases oxygen consumption leading to painful carbon dioxide buildup.[48] In the final minute, his heart rate became erratic and he started rising from the bottom of the water-filled sphere;[48][49] however, he kept his head submerged for a half minute longer than the previous record. Ultimately, Blaine held his breath for 17 minutes 4 1/2 seconds, surpassing Colat's previous mark of 16 minutes 32 seconds. This was Blaine's first Guinness record[49] and it stood for almost four and a half months, until surpassed by Tom Sietas on September 19, 2008.
During the following interview, Blaine stated: "I really thought I was not going to make it,"[49] claiming that he did so by staying in a meditative state which was helped by the studio lights reflecting off of the sphere.[48] According to Blaine, besides the pressure of performing on television, the heart-rate monitor happened to be close enough to his ear so that he heard its beeping, and he had to keep his feet locked in holds at the bottom of the sphere — instead of just floating freely, as he did in the pool on Grand Cayman months earlier. Back then he said he was so relaxed he "wasn’t even there" during most of the breath-hold. But when he emerged from the sphere today, he told Oprah, "I was pretty much here the whole time."[49]

See the history of records from here:

http://www.aida-international.org/


News story w/ Krack:

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/story.html?id=261e2654-fe62-4c6f-8b5c-738619f6abfc

Krack, who has a personal best static apnea time of six minutes, 45 seconds, says only a handful of divers in the world can hold their breath for seven minutes, and that's with proper rest and nutrition.

While Blaine did not reach his personal goal, much was learned while he was underwater.

"We got a lot of good data and science out of it. We drew just about daily blood samples. We were able to log his adaptation in the water," said Krack, who also saw participation in the stunt as an opportunity to raise the profile of the sport he so loves.


Interesting comment from Krack's father in the same article:

Krack's parents, Calvin and Barbara, followed Blaine's daring feat from their home in Prince Albert.

"We didn't know that much more than the average Joe Public because there was quite a cloak of secrecy around it because what David does is magic," said Calvin Krack.



According to the Finnish Wikipedia, brain damage occurs only after 10 minutes from the black out if no help is at hand. This is because of the brains own self defense mechanism.

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapaasukellus


This is what Brian Dunning has to say about Blaine's stunt:

http://skepticblog.org/2010/01/28/did-david-blaine-hold-his-breath-for-17-minutes/

World Records Academy (not sure what organization this is, I couldn't find David Blaine from the Guinness World Records search engine):

http://www.worldrecordsacademy.org/stunts/longest_breath-holding_world_record_set_by_David_Blaine_80235.htm


Ok, to me all this looks like a BIG performance. All I know is that if it was a trick, this TED Talk video goes way too far, and the "skeptic movement" should do something about it. Unless, of course, it's the modern day version of Project Alpha. If it wasn't a trick, well, Criss Angel is in trouble...

[Dr H]

Is this believable? Is 17 minutes really achievable without trickery, apart from breathing pure oxygen?

While 17 minutes seems right on the fringe of the extreme, I think it's probably possible for someone in excellent shape who spent a goodly amount of time hyperventilating on pure O2 prior to the attempt.

In younger days when I was swimming competively, and skin & scuba diving regularly, I several times held my breath underwater for over 5 minutes, with my only prior preparation being 5 minutes of hyperventilating ordinary air.* (My longest was just over 6 minutes.) And I'm nothing like a world-class endurance champ or anything. Did this in about 10 feet of water, holding weights to keep me under.

And there didn't seem to be any ill effects afterwards, at all ... at all ... at all... at all ...

;)



*Note: We didn't know this at the time, but these days hyperventilating before performing these breath-holding stunts is considered quite dangerous.

[Andrew Wiggin]

That also disagrees with the apneamania site:

17'04", David Blaine from USA, 080430 in Chicago, USA (Guinness?)
16'32", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 080210 in St. Gallen, SUI *
16'13", Tom Sietas from Germany, 080223 in Madrid, ESP (Guinness)
16'04", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 070210 in St. Gallen, SUI *
14'12", Tom Sietas from Germany, 060105 in Milano, ITA (Guinness)
(this with 25 min of pure oxygene inhale before start)
13'05", Bill Strömberg from Sweden, 041003 in Lausanne, SUI *
(this with only 4 min of pure oxygen inhale before start)
12'47", Giancarlo Bellingrath from Italy, 030615 in Naples, ITA
12'34", Gianluca Genoni from Italy, 020511 in Busto Arsizio, ITA
(* = with AIDA judges verifying the performance)


I found another list, in their specific section on special records. This one goes even farther.


Static Apnea with pure oxygen,

19'21", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 100216 in St. Gallen, SUI *
19'02", Nicola Putignano from Italy, 090521 in Italy
18'03", Gianluca Genoni from Italy, 081126 in Goito, Italy
17'19", Tom Sietas from Germany, 080919 in New York, USA (Guinness)
17'04", David Blaine from USA, 080430 in Chicago, USA (Guinness)
16'32", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 080210 in St. Gallen, SUI *
16'13", Tom Sietas from Germany, 080223 in Madrid, ESP (Guinness)
16'04", Peter Colat from Switzerland, 070210 in St. Gallen, SUI *
14'12", Tom Sietas from Germany, 060105 in Milano, ITA (Guinness)
(this with 25 min of pure oxygene inhale before start)
13'05", Bill Stromberg from Sweden, 041003 in Lausanne, SUI *
(this with only 4 min of pure oxygen inhale before start)
12'47", Giancarlo Bellingrath from Italy, 030615 in Naples, ITA
12'34", Gianluca Genoni from Italy, 020511 in Busto Arsizio, ITA
(* = with AIDA judges verifying the performance)

It certainly looks like 17 some minutes is the extent of the Guinness verified records, but with the AIDA records added in, 19 and change.

A

[Uncayimmy]

Do breatharians get fat inhaling pure oxygen?

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
He does stupid stunts because he's not very good at magic that takes skill ...This is hard to believe. He clearly performs street magic in a way that impresses crowds just as stage magicians do. Because it isn't the same stage magic P&T perform, or maybe because he isn't as fast with the cups and balls as P&T, I find their criticism a bit egotistical.

It's all illusion, no matter how the tricks are done. I see no reason why a unique street performance has to be the same as a stage performance to be good.

[Kuko 4000]

This is hard to believe. He clearly performs street magic in a way that impresses crowds just as stage magicians do. Because it isn't the same stage magic P&T perform, or maybe because he isn't as fast with the cups and balls as P&T, I find their criticism a bit egotistical.


Wasn't Penn's point that if you are looking only at the skill level of say performing card tricks, David Blaine (or Penn or Criss for that matter) is not even close to guys like Jamy Ian Swiss, etc. And that many of the card trick effects David does on the street could be duplicated by just about anyone with around 6 minutes of practice once the trick is revealed, btw. I have personal experience of this. Penn also predicted that people would be even more impressed if they only could experience what the really good ones can do in the close-up scene.

Personally I don't care much, as long as the current audience is genuinely impressed. I would of course want the best performers to gain the biggest benefits always, but that's pretty unrealistic no matter where you look.

[Uncayimmy]

This is hard to believe. He clearly performs street magic in a way that impresses crowds just as stage magicians do. Because it isn't the same stage magic P&T perform, or maybe because he isn't as fast with the cups and balls as P&T, I find their criticism a bit egotistical.

It's all illusion, no matter how the tricks are done. I see no reason why a unique street performance has to be the same as a stage performance to be good.

I find their criticism far from egotistical. Apparently for his 48 minutes on the TV special they shot hundreds of hours over several weeks to get his 48 minutes of great reactions. In found Penn quite self-deprecating and complimentary. Of course, I base my opinion on what he actually said. On what are you basing your opinion?

http://www.pennfans.net/files/audio/penn_blaine.mp3

[Zep]

Blaine 17 minutes under water and survives?

Why didn't someone hold him there longer - 60 minutes would probably have been sufficient to get the job done...


IT'S A JOKE!

[zooterkin]

Blaine 17 minutes under water and survives?

Why didn't someone hold him there longer - 60 minutes would probably have been sufficient to get the job done...



See the tags...

[jakesteele]

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58xyjOFkpxk ;)

Why did he say the world's record for "holding your breath on purpose" was 4:35 (or whatever it was, exactly)?

[Kuko 4000]

Why did he say the world's record for "holding your breath on purpose" was 4:35 (or whatever it was, exactly)?


Many possible reasons, maybe it fit the lenght of their trick better than 7 minutes or whatever it was at that time, or maybe they just wanted to respect Houdini on national TV, who knows. Why?

[jakesteele]

Many possible reasons, maybe it fit the lenght of their trick better than 7 minutes or whatever it was at that time, or maybe they just wanted to respect Houdini on national TV, who knows. Why?

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying you going to beat Mandrake the Magician's world record of pulling 23 rabbits out of a hat. You're just pulling **** out of the air. Besides, some debunker might come along and debunk you and expose you.

If Uri Geller did the same thing you would be all over his ass for that; making false claims and misleading the teeming masses.

[Kuko 4000]

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying you going to beat Mandrake the Magician's world record of pulling 23 rabbits out of a hat. You're just pulling **** out of the air. Besides, some debunker might come along and debunk you and expose you.

If Uri Geller did the same thing you would be all over his ass for that; making false claims and misleading the teeming masses.


Nope, first of all, that was a humorous performance and a clear magic trick in a magic show, second, P&T don't claim to have supernatural powers in real life, quite the opposite actually. Third, if they had the reasons I offered / speculated, they most likely wouldn't mind one bit to be "debunked". To give you other possible senarios, maybe they just didn't do their research. Or maybe at the time of that show Houdini did have the record, I haven't checked.

Anyways, I would still bet on my original reasons. Is there a particular reason why this interests you?

[jakesteele]

Nope, first of all, that was a humorous performance and a clear magic trick in a magic show,

Yes, you would be all over Uri. You're already all over Blaine and he's more respected for what he does. And, also, the who P&T trick hinges on "breaking the current world record". Because it's a trick, they could pretty much drag it out any length they could want to.

second, P&T don't claim to have supernatural powers in real life, quite the opposite actually.

Does David Blaine claim to have supernatural powers?

Third, if they had the reasons I offered / speculated, they most likely wouldn't mind one bit to be "debunked". To give you other possible senarios, maybe they just didn't do their research.

Not doing their research seems a very weak plausible. That's an integral part of a magician's job.

Or maybe at the time of that show Houdini did have the record, I haven't checked.


I seriously doubt that between the time of the show and David Blaine that people started breaking the world's records by huge leaps and bounds up to 13,14,15 plus minutes.

Anyways, I would still bet on my original reasons. Is there a particular reason why this interests you?

Your Honor, it goes to credibility as to their being a sound source of reality in their attacks on woo.

[Kuko 4000]

Yes, you would be all over Uri. You're already all over Blaine and he's more respected for what he does. And, also, the who P&T trick hinges on "breaking the current world record". Because it's a trick, they could pretty much drag it out any length they could want to.


No, again, I'm "all over" Uri Geller, because he claims to have paranormal powers in real life. I'm not that familiar with Blaine's show, but I suggest that you read my long post again from this page. Here's a key quote:

All I know is that if it was a trick, this TED Talk video goes way too far, and the "skeptic movement" should do something about it.


I highlighted the most important word. Please understand the context of my post.




Does David Blaine claim to have supernatural powers?


I doubt it, but make no mistake, I (and probably most here) would be "all over" Blaine if he did claim that. 17 minutes w/ pure oxygen is not a paranormal claim. I just want to know whether he did it for real or not.




Not doing their research seems a very weak plausible. That's an integral part of a magician's job.


Nevertheless, it's a real option. I would still bet on my original reasons though. That it was just more suitable for TV and entertainment.




I seriously doubt that between the time of the show and David Blaine that people started breaking the world's records by huge leaps and bounds up to 13,14,15 plus minutes.


First of all, you are confusing static apnea and pure oxygen assisted breath holding, anyways, you can see the history of the records from here:

http://www.aida-international.org/

Just to give you some idea of the progress:

6 min 48 sec
Name: Andy LE SAUCE
Date: 1994-01-08
Place: La Réunion, FRA

8 min 6 sec
Name: Martin STEPANEK
Date: 2001-07-03
Place: Miami. USA


11 min 35 sec WR CR Europe
Name: Stephane MIFSUD
Date: 2009-06-08
Place: Hyeres, France


AFAIK, the P&T trick was from: The Unpleasant World of Penn & Teller series for Channel 4 (1994)



Your Honor, it goes to credibility as to their being a sound source of reality in their attacks on woo.


Are you serious? It was clearly a humorous trick and they used the target time as a simple tool to build drama, I'm a bit surprised I need to spell this out to you. Unless, of course, you actually think that the main point of that performance was to beat the world record in static apnea? By that same logic, I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that Teller died while trying to break the record...

Here it is again, take a look:

58xyjOFkpxk

[CORed]

(Not quite sure where this belongs, but General Skepticism seems reasonable.)

David Blaine has apparently set a new record for not breathing underwater (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7376101.stm), live on Oprah.

Is this believable? Is 17 minutes really achievable without trickery, apart from breathing pure oxygen? Is it endurance, or magic? Is he going to be causing damage to his body in some way? And, finally, why does he do it?

Sure, holding his breath underwater for 17 minutes is well within the norm. If he's a whale.

[jakesteele]

I think it's believable. Pure oxygen seems a bit like steroids as far as record-breaking goes though. Most world-record breath-holdings I've seen take place twenty feet underwater without prior oxygenation, so he could be "weaseling" that it's a recognized major record while altering the conditions to his favor

From various specials (which could obviously involve nonsense), it does seem like he or anyone in breath-holding could experience long-term detriment even if the attempt goes fine.

Why does he do it? Money, fame, maybe trickery/hoax, maybe legimately testing human limits. Probably a combination of all of these.

Needless to say, it would be better for us if this had taken place in a laboratory than on the Oprah show :)


Only if everybody else has (had) to.

[jakesteele]

I see they're claiming this as a world record. Who did the verifying? What controls were there?

Apparently, the some type of witnesses and controls as everybody else has for any other world record. Either that or Blaine bribed the GWR people and when it's exposed it will be bigger than Enron and Auther Anderson combined.

[jakesteele]

For Blaine to fake this would be just like a sci fi guy trying to foist a story off on the public as though it were real and telling people to prove that it isn’t or saying he was told by “highly placed sources who choose to remain anonymous for fear of their lives.” Or the guy who wrote the Million Little Pieces that Oprah touted and then finding out it wasn’t real. If the guy would have presented it as fiction, it probably would have been considered a great work of insight into human psychology like the Catcher in the Rye. But because the guy tried to present as factual he lost all credibility and was soundly booed and blackballed.

Blaine’s profession is a magician, a trickster, someone you know isn’t actually doing it for real; not that of a fraud, cheat and liar. That’s not to say he couldn’t be lying, but he would have a whole lot more to loose by lying and cheating than by saying with an impish smile, “It’s magic.”

From previous links given in this thread it is a fact that people can hold their breaths in this range. What he did is considered a valid type of record to break Guiness - Guinness World Record for oxygen assisted static apnea

Under the rules - up to 30 minutes of "oxygen hyperventilation" is allowed under guidelines.

Based on the fact that it can be done and the fact that his whole career would be over if he lied, I tend to believe him for now. Again, not to say he didn’t, but just that I think it more likely that he wouldn’t.

As far as Penn goes, he should have a Coke and go **** himself. JREFers treat him like he is a demi-god because he says the things debunkers want to hear. I’ll use the same kind of JREF logic that Junior J-men always use for anything woo: Perhaps Penn has a bad case of professional jealously. He's jealous because he doesn’t get the media exposure that Blaine does. He probably doesn’t make as much money as Blaine does. Maybe he has to moonlight as a debunker just to make ends meet. Maybe he hasn’t got enough talent juice to make it to Prime Time. And most importantly, maybe he’s jealous because he doesn’t get to be on the Oprah Show because it would have been a huge career boost.:)

[JcR]

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/JamesChristopher_photos/jumpingblaine.jpg

"Kaptain" Knievel jumps 50 Blaines.

[Skeptic]

Jones was an expert diver. Every year he would dive deeper, deeper. After ten years, with his specialized scuba gear at the depth of 150 feet, he suddenly sees his friend Smith, with no scuba gear, no goggles, no nothing; not even a bathing suit, but a shirt and tie.

Surprised, he signals to him: "Smith, I thought you don't even know how to swim! What are you doing here?"
Smith signals back: "What am I doing? I'm drowning."