Anyone here ever encountered the Immunics cult?

[laarree]

Otherwise known as WHUM, Immuners, CureDrive, they are a not-so-benign cult of folks (they call themselves a church), http://www.immunics.org/index.html they claim to teach people a technique that enables you to cure yourself of virtually any illness. This technique is, as you might imagine, ultra-woo-ish in nature, and is called "harmonic accessing" http://www.immunics.org/00open/definitions/accessing.htm and http://www.immunics.org/00open/definitions/rik.htm

Their founding father is currently located in Florida (videos of him are on their homepage and on Youtube), and has been around the New Age scene for well over 30 years attracting and losing followers. Originally an unlicensed primal therapist in New York City who one day proclaimed that he had achieved a state of "no mind" (e.g. "enlightenment"), his band of followers over the years have mutated in form and name from Direct Centering to Naexus to its current incarnation. Somehow his current group under its current name has stayed under the radar of nearly all skeptical organizations and web-entities. There is almost a complete absence of critical commentary on this group to be found anywhere on the web except for a link that can be found in an old JREF forum posting and a listing at crank.net that I am responsible for. A recent search on google for "Direct Centering" reveals a few critical references, and also reveals the astonishing fact that a certain someone named Adam Savage :eek: apparently did the Direct Centering course. http://ask.metafilter.com/16566/Founded-by-Scientologist-reject-family-abuser-and-tax-avoider-all-in-one

I was one of his youthful followers during the late '70s to early '80s when his group and teaching was called Direct Centering. My falling away from this group was perhaps the most insane and terrifying period of my life, but luckily I got some help, learned about cults and critical thinking from some very kind and smart counselors I met, found out about CSICOP from one of them and many years later am happily skeptical and atheistic and largely free of obvious derangement. However, I still get pissed thinking about how my old cult leader continues to sell dubious knowledge to the naive. :mad:

I'm extremely curious about whether anyone here in the JREF forums has knowledge about them or has had encounters with them.

[Gravy]

Never heard of them. Psychic Chiropractic adjustments and medical diagnoses by phone. Good grief!
Glad you got yourself free!

[laarree]

Never heard of them. Psychic Chiropractic adjustments and medical diagnoses by phone. Good grief!
Glad you got yourself free!

They didn't jump into the medical woo until well after I left. It probably had something to do with the leader "curing" himself of herpes and wanting to pass his "knowledge" on to others. He had many many affairs with students and followers in the days before HIV came along, so it stands to reason he would have caught somethng nasty.

[Moochie]

Otherwise known as WHUM, Immuners, CureDrive, they are a not-so-benign cult of folks (they call themselves a church), http://www.immunics.org/index.html they claim to teach people a technique that enables you to cure yourself of virtually any illness. This technique is, as you might imagine, ultra-woo-ish in nature, and is called "harmonic accessing" http://www.immunics.org/00open/definitions/accessing.htm and http://www.immunics.org/00open/definitions/rik.htm

Their founding father is currently located in Florida (videos of him are on their homepage and on Youtube), and has been around the New Age scene for well over 30 years attracting and losing followers. Originally an unlicensed primal therapist in New York City who one day proclaimed that he had achieved a state of "no mind" (e.g. "enlightenment"), his band of followers over the years have mutated in form and name from Direct Centering to Naexus to its current incarnation. Somehow his current group under its current name has stayed under the radar of nearly all skeptical organizations and web-entities. There is almost a complete absence of critical commentary on this group to be found anywhere on the web except for a link that can be found in an old JREF forum posting and a listing at crank.net that I am responsible for. A recent search on google for "Direct Centering" reveals a few critical references, and also reveals the astonishing fact that a certain someone named Adam Savage :eek: apparently did the Direct Centering course. http://ask.metafilter.com/16566/Founded-by-Scientologist-reject-family-abuser-and-tax-avoider-all-in-one

I was one of his youthful followers during the late '70s to early '80s when his group and teaching was called Direct Centering. My falling away from this group was perhaps the most insane and terrifying period of my life, but luckily I got some help, learned about cults and critical thinking from some very kind and smart counselors I met, found out about CSICOP from one of them and many years later am happily skeptical and atheistic and largely free of obvious derangement. However, I still get pissed thinking about how my old cult leader continues to sell dubious knowledge to the naive. :mad:

I'm extremely curious about whether anyone here in the JREF forums has knowledge about them or has had encounters with them.

I've written before about my experience of Primal in the late 70s, here in Australia, when it was practiced by a psychiatrist who'd gone to the States, met Arthur Janov and a host of others, and came back to start what was then possibly the first and only PT clinic on these shores.

To a young guy who felt weird and depressed and a whole bunch of other things, Primal Therapy seemed "the answer."

It wasn't.

I participated in it for a couple of years or so, but when the psychiatrist started on about "cells having memories," causing his closest allies to splinter off to follow their own delusions (past lives, interstellar origins, etc.) I somehow had the nous to figure out that these people were seriously, well, something.

There will always be people searching for some answer to whatever ails them, and there will always be those who will take advantage of that.

Fact is, there are no magical cures, particularly not for so-called mental problems, so if you see what appears to be "the answer," apply Occam's Razor, quickly! You're human, and so are the morons claiming to offer cures. They're either scamsters, seriously deluded, or both. Realizing this generally suggests that you only lack the confidence to appreciate just how "together" you actually are, compared to such freaks. :)

M.

[Fnord]

Seems like a bunch of Scientology wannabes.

Pitiful... :nope:

[laarree]

I've written before about my experience of Primal in the late 70s, here in Australia, when it was practiced by a psychiatrist who'd gone to the States, met Arthur Janov and a host of others, and came back to start what was then possibly the first and only PT clinic on these shores.

To a young guy who felt weird and depressed and a whole bunch of other things, Primal Therapy seemed "the answer."

It wasn't.

I participated in it for a couple of years or so, but when the psychiatrist started on about "cells having memories," causing his closest allies to splinter off to follow their own delusions (past lives, interstellar origins, etc.) I somehow had the nous to figure out that these people were seriously, well, something.

There will always be people searching for some answer to whatever ails them, and there will always be those who will take advantage of that.

Fact is, there are no magical cures, particularly not for so-called mental problems, so if you see what appears to be "the answer," apply Occam's Razor, quickly! You're human, and so are the morons claiming to offer cures. They're either scamsters, seriously deluded, or both. Realizing this generally suggests that you only lack the confidence to appreciate just how "together" you actually are, compared to such freaks. :)

M.

You mean Dr. Graham Farrant, don't you? I was involved in Primal therapy here in New York City in the mid- to late-'70s, which was my "gateway drug" to getting involved with Direct Centering. Getting back into primal (again, with an unlicensed therapist) actually helped me put my cult behind me, but ultimately led to my disenchantment with primal. I went to a conference sponsored by the International Primal Association c. Summer 1984 with the agenda of talking to therapists there about my cult experience and Graham Farrant was the keynote speaker. The fact that he was a psychiatrist and spoke so articulately about cellular consciousness and conception trauma and whatnot was very impressive to the people and therapists attending--by the time he was finished, everyone was warmed up for his endorsement of Sathya Sai Baba as his master. Many credulous primal people sat around his feet as he went on about his godman guru, and I believe he attracted many of them to become Sai Baba followers--I guess Rajneesh was no longer vaible as a choice for western neo-Hindus :D . I was appalled, as I was witnessing people who I thought were more sane, "real" and "feeling" than I was getting suckered into believing tall tales about an alleged avatar and magician. Needless to say, I never went back to any other primal conferences and eventually gave up on primal.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I've always considered Primal Therapy a real scream! ;)

[laarree]

Seems like a bunch of Scientology wannabes.

Pitiful... :nope:

Back during the late '70s, the cult leader purchased and studied many L. Ron Hubbard Scientology volumes, and would run Scientology processes (sans e-meter) on us poor unknowing early followers. One process he especially liked was called "exteriorization" which allegedly could induce out-of-the-body experiences. He would advertise via flyers in health food stores free evenings in NYC's East Village with the headline "Learn to Leave Your Body". I was subjected to this many times and was disappointed that I never had an OOBE -- I, of course, blamed myself for this inability. A year or two before (1977), he was advertising on his flyers "Learn the Ways of the Force"--guess what that was a reference to. ;)

I hope I am making my woo-filled background clear. :D

[RSLancastr]

There is almost a complete absence of critical commentary on this group to be found anywhere on the webThis sounds like a void you are very qualified to fill, laarree.

[laarree]

This sounds like a void you are very qualified to fill, laarree.

I guess so. I know very little about their current activities, which is why I thought I'd post an inquiry here. AFAIK they could be pretty harmless these days, although any group that makes the promises that they make deserves the scrutiny of smarter, more experienced skeptics than I. The potential for them to deceive and exploit people with serious health problems is great.

I have a substantial collection of documents related to the early years of this cult which I recently scanned in and turned into PDF files. I shredded the paper versions to free up some storage space in my New York City-sized apartment and now just have the digitized versions, duplicated offsite just in case there is ever a use for them in the future.

[krelnik]

...one day proclaimed that he had achieved a state of "no mind"...

That part I believe, but I'm thinking I'm defining words a little differently than he is.

I agree with RSL, you are in a great position to create a site to expose this nonsense. Go for it!

[Moochie]

You mean Dr. Graham Farrant, don't you? I was involved in Primal therapy here in New York City in the mid- to late-'70s, which was my "gateway drug" to getting involved with Direct Centering. Getting back into primal (again, with an unlicensed therapist) actually helped me put my cult behind me, but ultimately led to my disenchantment with primal. I went to a conference sponsored by the International Primal Association c. Summer 1984 with the agenda of talking to therapists there about my cult experience and Graham Farrant was the keynote speaker. The fact that he was a psychiatrist and spoke so articulately about cellular consciousness and conception trauma and whatnot was very impressive to the people and therapists attending--by the time he was finished, everyone was warmed up for his endorsement of Sathya Sai Baba as his master. Many credulous primal people sat around his feet as he went on about his godman guru, and I believe he attracted many of them to become Sai Baba followers--I guess Rajneesh was no longer vaible as a choice for western neo-Hindus :D . I was appalled, as I was witnessing people who I thought were more sane, "real" and "feeling" than I was getting suckered into believing tall tales about an alleged avatar and magician. Needless to say, I never went back to any other primal conferences and eventually gave up on primal.

I think many of us "products of the 60s" went guru-shopping in the 70s and later. Some of us became ersatz gurus, while many of us became their devotees. A good proportion of us eventually got smart, and so here we are. :)

M.

[laarree]

That part I believe, but I'm thinking I'm defining words a little differently than he is.

I agree with RSL, you are in a great position to create a site to expose this nonsense. Go for it!

The problems with a project like that are many-- if I knew that they were currently harming people, that might motivate me, but I've found nothing on the web about this, nor have I been contacted thru the grapevine about such incidents from my old counter-cult connections. Also, I don't have the resources or the time to deal with the consequences of creating an exposé site, e.g. lawsuits, emails or phone calls from the cult, retaliatory actions on their part. 20 years ago I was sufficiently angry about my experiences with them to take action against them, but now I'm more like a concerned historian than an activist.

[kedo1981]

Getting to nail all the hot chicks is the best reason to start a cult

[laarree]

Getting to nail all the hot chicks is the best reason to start a cult

My old cult leader had his way with countless cuties. One of them is an "Elder" in the group--she was known for having said years ago that sleeping with him was like a "sexual healing". Oh, and his wife (or ex-wife but still primary relationship) is also one of the "Elders".

One of the more positive aspects of my old cult was that most people were getting laid alot, including myself. :D

At least I didn't have the awful taste to have fallen in with Marshall Applewhite. :eek:

[Moochie]

At least I didn't have the awful taste to have fallen in with Marshall Applewhite. :eek:

If you had, you probably wouldn't have had the balls to get out. :D

M.

[MaryCBW]

Moochie:
"I think many of us "products of the 60s" went guru-shopping in the 70s and later. Some of us became ersatz gurus, while many of us became their devotees. A good proportion of us eventually got smart, and so here we are."

Yikes! I guess there are some advantages to being a teen/young adult in the middle of nowhere in the South. I'm still trying to get some of the mainstream United Methodist crap out of my system.

[laarree]

Moochie:
"I think many of us "products of the 60s" went guru-shopping in the 70s and later. Some of us became ersatz gurus, while many of us became their devotees. A good proportion of us eventually got smart, and so here we are."

Yikes! I guess there are some advantages to being a teen/young adult in the middle of nowhere in the South. I'm still trying to get some of the mainstream United Methodist crap out of my system.

Can I recommend a nice New Age workshop to help you get free of that? :p

[fibanacci]

I've been semi-involved with this group for a couple of years. I was in a Buddhist cult when I was in my 20's so I recognized that aspect of this group and avoided activity like that., i.e. declined to sell bumper stickers or spread the word. I found this board when I googled Immunics a few days ago because their web site was down, so I joined up so I could respond.

The Immunics web site includes a lot of videos, audios and transcripts of Bayard's lectures. He quite freely admits to a lot of his past indescretions and also admits that he is bipolar, although I was not aware of the long history of running a cult. I was under the impression that he had run a for profit business consulting firm. They are currently a non-profit org but not an official church as far as I know.

There is a lot of stuff about the Harmonic coming from God, and all kinds of esoteric stuff on the web site. I was raised as an atheist in the Unitarian Church so I don't have much regard for all that stuff. I consider Immunics to be a version of muscle testing, self-hypnosis, etc. and I have stayed involved because it seems to have some effect. Early on I found a person in my city with whom I get together and we "practice" Immunics together and do lessons on the web site. I think the mutual support of practicing together is the main reason that I have stuck with it. Like meditation, there is a benefit from practicing with other people which amplifies the effect. The other place that I have experienced this effect is in Quaker silent meetings, the only organized religion that I can handle.

Some of the Immunics web site lessons have been powerful and relevant experiences but a lot of others have been weird, puzzling or annoying.

I tried communicating with the elders for a while but found their responses to my questions to be dogmatic or unintelligable by me so I gave up on that.

I am a person of scientific bent who was forced by health issues that were not fixed by western medicine to seek help in other places. It is difficult to discuss these things intelligently because there is so much deception by opportunistic people and misinformation from the gullible sincere ones also. Much of the medical/pharmaceutical/research industrial complex does not function in good faith either. I think it is a healthy thing that alternative therapies like acupuncture are being studied, but that is probably off topic for this page. Is there a thread on this site that discusses these things in an open minded way? My husband used to subscribe to SCICOP and I found them to be closed minded science fundamentalists on some issues.

I get the impression that the Immunics web site is not reeling in very many new fishes these days. There has been very little activity on the email lists, other than the periodic posts sent automatically

[laarree]

I've been semi-involved with this group for a couple of years. I was in a Buddhist cult when I was in my 20's so I recognized that aspect of this group and avoided activity like that., i.e. declined to sell bumper stickers or spread the word. I found this board when I googled Immunics a few days ago because their web site was down, so I joined up so I could respond.

The Immunics web site includes a lot of videos, audios and transcripts of Bayard's lectures. He quite freely admits to a lot of his past indescretions and also admits that he is bipolar, although I was not aware of the long history of running a cult. I was under the impression that he had run a for profit business consulting firm. They are currently a non-profit org but not an official church as far as I know.

There is a lot of stuff about the Harmonic coming from God, and all kinds of esoteric stuff on the web site. I was raised as an atheist in the Unitarian Church so I don't have much regard for all that stuff. I consider Immunics to be a version of muscle testing, self-hypnosis, etc. and I have stayed involved because it seems to have some effect. Early on I found a person in my city with whom I get together and we "practice" Immunics together and do lessons on the web site. I think the mutual support of practicing together is the main reason that I have stuck with it. Like meditation, there is a benefit from practicing with other people which amplifies the effect. The other place that I have experienced this effect is in Quaker silent meetings, the only organized religion that I can handle.

Some of the Immunics web site lessons have been powerful and relevant experiences but a lot of others have been weird, puzzling or annoying.

I tried communicating with the elders for a while but found their responses to my questions to be dogmatic or unintelligable by me so I gave up on that.

I am a person of scientific bent who was forced by health issues that were not fixed by western medicine to seek help in other places. It is difficult to discuss these things intelligently because there is so much deception by opportunistic people and misinformation from the gullible sincere ones also. Much of the medical/pharmaceutical/research industrial complex does not function in good faith either. I think it is a healthy thing that alternative therapies like acupuncture are being studied, but that is probably off topic for this page. Is there a thread on this site that discusses these things in an open minded way? My husband used to subscribe to SCICOP and I found them to be closed minded science fundamentalists on some issues.

I get the impression that the Immunics web site is not reeling in very many new fishes these days. There has been very little activity on the email lists, other than the periodic posts sent automatically

Hello and welcome, fibanacci! I was very surprised to see a new post on this dormant thread, especially from someone who actually has participated in the recent Immunics phase of Bayard's 30+ year-old cult. It's interesting to hear that he has admitted to past indiscretions and says he is bipolar -- I assume the videos, transcripts, etc. where he says such things are password-protected and not accessible to non-paying non-members. I wonder if he believes he has cured himself of bipolar disorder using immunics. That would be as absurd as saying that the ocean has cured itself of its saltiness using salt.

I personally have no use for alternative "medicine" and lost whatever respect for it that I had years ago. I highly suggest getting a copy of the book "Trick or Treatment" by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst and reading it -- it does a brilliant job of explaining evidence-based medicine, its history, the history of popular branches alternative medicine, the value of stuff like double-blinded clinical trials, meta-analyses of clinical trials, the placebo effect, etc. It comes to the unsurprising and disappointing conclusion that nearly all alternative treatments have no benefit for their recipients beyond a placebo effect, which is what I suspect immunics-style finger testing and other practices evoke. I suspect that you'll find few fans of alternative medicine in these forums -- poke around other threads here and you'll see what I mean. :)

If you want to read a couple of other discussions of Bayard's cult on the web, take a look at http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,56207 , http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,3001,55547#msg-55547 , or http://ask.metafilter.com/16566/Founded-by-Scientologist-reject-family-abuser-and-tax-avoider-all-in-one . You'll see my username and digressions in the two Rick Ross Cult Education Forum threads, along with posts from several other ex-Bayard-ites.

I can't imagine how the Immunics website could capture many fish -- it's badly designed and unprofessional-looking, and Bayard comes across strangely, sitting in profile and gazing off to the side in his videos. Contrast it with the website and videos (on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/BornFreeNow ) of this particular Irish crackpot "avatar", who seems to have had a larger design budget or perhaps some more technically sophisticated followers: http://www.sq-wellness.com/ :D

[The Atheist]

Is there a thread on this site that discusses these things in an open minded way?

Welcome along.

Good effort coming along and joining.

Can I suggest you just go to the Science, Mathematics and Medicine Forum and hit the "New Thread", and use a title like "Alt-Med discussion".

You'll find that this forum has some amazingly experienced and talented people in all alt-med fields and if you post with the style you've started, I'd just about guarantee that you won't find dogmatic people coming back to you.

[fibanacci]

I saw my Immunics buddy tonight and we attempted to teach a new person what we do. It was a good experience, I was able to get to the "calm, clear place" quicker than usual. I don't really understand too much about what is going on with Immunics but I think it has to do with self-hypnosis. I have prior experience with EMDR and hypnosis with a therapist and Holographic Repatterning from a trained person. Holographic repatterning seems like total voodoo but profound changes happened.

I will take a look at the threads in the Medicine section. I started doing Neurofeedback recently and I'm curious to learn more about that. There is a lot of really interesting real science being done these days in neurology with all the new tools. I'm hoping we are on the verge of a real revolution in our understanding but I've been disappointed with with what I've read from Candace Pert and the Biology of Belief guy. Looking for good recommendations on what to read.

You can get a password to the full Immunics web site if you write to them and say you can't affort to pay. That's how I had access for almost 2 years.

I read the other threads that you refered me to. One thing that strikes me is that Bayard is described as a sucessfull cult leader. From the tidbits that I have gathered from listening to his talks I get the impression that when he first "discovered" Immunics, he tried to sell it just the same as his previous courses but was not able to do it. He also talks about what a jerk he was in the past and how this staff had to stage interventions, etc. There is a sense of him having given up his previous ways with maybe hints of a religious conversion or re-awakening. He talks about being a devotee of Meher Baba, having gone to India around 1967.

I don't think he credits Immunics with curing his Manic Depression, he does talk about self treatment with OTC lithium that almost killed him. My father is bipolar which I think plays a big role in my reactions to Bayard. I have a tendency to be attracted to the charismatic aspect of manic depressives but at the same time I put up a shield against them. My dad is very intelligent and I have learned to filter out the crazy stuff while retaining the useful info, although this process is imperfect. I catch myself believing things that are probably not true.

I read an interesting book a few years ago that talked about cult leaders. Dont remember the name. It talked about Krishnamurti and some others. The main thing I remember is that the cult leader is always the supreme leader and expert, there is no democracy. I'm not sure Immunics qualifies as a cult in this regard. While Bayard is the leader, the elders are quite involved with expanding and writing the teachings and they are given credit for at least some of what they do. It seems like more of a group project. The recorded teaching phone calls are usually lead by the elders with Bayard listening and butting in. I had the impression that Bayard was treated like some kind of idiot-savant by them, but that could be just my own projection.

[laarree]

You can get a password to the full Immunics web site if you write to them and say you can't affort to pay. That's how I had access for almost 2 years.

I'm glad you gave them no money. :D

I read the other threads that you refered me to. One thing that strikes me is that Bayard is described as a sucessfull cult leader. From the tidbits that I have gathered from listening to his talks I get the impression that when he first "discovered" Immunics, he tried to sell it just the same as his previous courses but was not able to do it. He also talks about what a jerk he was in the past and how this staff had to stage interventions, etc. There is a sense of him having given up his previous ways with maybe hints of a religious conversion or re-awakening. He talks about being a devotee of Meher Baba, having gone to India around 1967.

Bayard always talked about his master Meher Baba even when I was involved. One striking difference between his monologues back in the '70s and early '80s and what I've seen thru the Immunics website is his talking about God--when I was involved in his cult, the purported agenda of his teachings was to awaken people to their "unlimitedness" and to having the experience that they are manifesting everything and all experiences, e.g. that they ARE God--he would often dramatically yell "You are the only one here!" during courses, but now he talks about God as something higher that downloads messages to him. That could point to a shift in his belief system somewhere between the time of my involvement and the "discovery" of immunics.

I don't think he credits Immunics with curing his Manic Depression, he does talk about self treatment with OTC lithium that almost killed him. My father is bipolar which I think plays a big role in my reactions to Bayard. I have a tendency to be attracted to the charismatic aspect of manic depressives but at the same time I put up a shield against them. My dad is very intelligent and I have learned to filter out the crazy stuff while retaining the useful info, although this process is imperfect. I catch myself believing things that are probably not true.

OTC Lithium?? WTF is that? Lithium is a prescription drug. I can't imagine B submitting to going to a psychiatrist, getting a proper diagnosis and getting a prescription. If he self-medicated thru a less formal source of drugs, that alone could be dangerous. He does make extravagant claims as to what Immunics alone can cure, so him dabbling in psychiatric meds isn't a strong endorsement of his own teaching.

FWIW, my mother very possibly was bipolar. I too had to filter out the crazy stuff to keep sane when I was a kid, which could account for my long-standing appreciation for reason and my Mr. Spock-ish demeanor. :)

I read an interesting book a few years ago that talked about cult leaders. Dont remember the name. It talked about Krishnamurti and some others. The main thing I remember is that the cult leader is always the supreme leader and expert, there is no democracy. I'm not sure Immunics qualifies as a cult in this regard. While Bayard is the leader, the elders are quite involved with expanding and writing the teachings and they are given credit for at least some of what they do. It seems like more of a group project. The recorded teaching phone calls are usually lead by the elders with Bayard listening and butting in. I had the impression that Bayard was treated like some kind of idiot-savant by them, but that could be just my own projection.

The "elders" of WHUM, who have been by B's side for over 25 years (Fran over 30 years) have all had long histories of submitting to him and duplicating his speech patterns, behaviors, mannerisms, etc. If there is any school of guru-ship B could be lumped into, it's the "crazy wisdom" school, where the bizarre behaviors of the guru are rationalized by followers as being teaching devices that could shock them awake or enlighten them. If the "elders" appear to function as peers instead of followers of B, I would speculate it's because they are beyond the point of doing something he would consider unpredictable or threatening and function as a comfortable echo chamber in which he can have his brand of madness affirmed and unchallenged. What goes on between them and what is shown to the public (such as yourself and others consuming their teachings via the website) can be shockingly different.

Gotta get back to work, you have a good day. :)

[fibanacci]

OTC Lithium?? WTF is that? Lithium is a prescription drug. I can't imagine B submitting to going to a psychiatrist, getting a proper diagnosis and getting a prescription. If he self-medicated thru a less formal source of drugs, that alone could be dangerous. He does make extravagant claims as to what Immunics alone can cure, so him dabbling in psychiatric meds isn't a strong endorsement of his own teaching.

:)

He said that in the early 1970's, decades before Immunics, he bought a lithium compound from a chemical supply place that supplied people who did ceramics. Nearly killed himself, not a good idea.

Interesting to hear that he is the type of bipolar person who would not submit to the care of a psychiatrist, my dad is the same, too paranoid and too smart for his own good.

[laarree]

In the early 1970s, AFAIK Bayard attended Primal therapy workshops and groups in New York City, and then started his own practice as a primal therapist, without any professional training or state licenses. Incidentally, B was a perfect example of what Arthur Janov, author of "The Primal Scream" and other volumes on Primal Therapy, would label a "mock primal therapist"--someone who claims to do primal therapy but was not trained or licensed by Janov's institute (this is the equivalent of an astrologer denigrating the dubious qualifications of a trance channeler). If B tried a non-medical lithium compound during this time period to self-medicate, that is the height of lunacy. The "creation myth" he would relate to us early students about how he "discovered" Direct Centering was that he attended a biofeedback workshop, after which he found himself laughing uncontrollably for five hours. At the end of this extended fit of laughter, he had no mind (in the eastern religious sense), and claimed that he could do things like control the weather, and had everything go his way. If he is really bipolar, that sheds some light on the origin of what eventually became Immunics--it all started with an extreme manic episode.

[fibanacci]

He refers to his former profession as having been a shrink. For a while I was confused and thought he was an MD. I think I emailed him and asked about that and he said no, he was an unlicenced primal therapist.

That's interesting about the biofeedback workshop. I'm guessing in those days it was alpha wave feedback.

My grandfather was a minister and my dad rebelled against that after taking geology in the church run college that he attended. Raised me as an atheist/agnostic with good training in logic and reason. But when he got psychotic, he would get religious again, see Jesus on the roof of the 7-11, etc, that is, when he wasnt hiding from the CIA. That made a big impression on me and I realized as an adult that I regarded people who believed in god as stupid or crazy. Since then I've met a lot of very nice spiritual people and I have to work really hard to try to understand WTF they are talking about.

[laarree]

I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to have a father going thru that kind of stuff--that sounds very frightening. The worst my mother ever got was viciously angry and bitter, not paranoid and hallucinating. Still, living with her as a kid was enough to drive me during my college days to explore primal therapy and the New Age in general, which led me into the clutches of B.

[dudalb]

One thing about medical woo groups like this: Nature tends to solve the problem for us....

[John Smith]

awesome work on this thread laaree,
well done

[laarree]

awesome work on this thread laaree,
well done

Thanks, John, whoever you are. I try my best to rise above my inherent nitwit-ery. :D

[Skeptical Humanist]

I was a member of Direct Centering. I'd like to talk to you about it. I'm curious to find others who left the cult.

[sadhatter]

You mean Dr. Graham Farrant, don't you? I was involved in Primal therapy here in New York City in the mid- to late-'70s, which was my "gateway drug" to getting involved with Direct Centering. Getting back into primal (again, with an unlicensed therapist) actually helped me put my cult behind me, but ultimately led to my disenchantment with primal. I went to a conference sponsored by the International Primal Association c. Summer 1984 with the agenda of talking to therapists there about my cult experience and Graham Farrant was the keynote speaker. The fact that he was a psychiatrist and spoke so articulately about cellular consciousness and conception trauma and whatnot was very impressive to the people and therapists attending--by the time he was finished, everyone was warmed up for his endorsement of Sathya Sai Baba as his master. Many credulous primal people sat around his feet as he went on about his godman guru, and I believe he attracted many of them to become Sai Baba followers--I guess Rajneesh was no longer vaible as a choice for western neo-Hindus :D . I was appalled, as I was witnessing people who I thought were more sane, "real" and "feeling" than I was getting suckered into believing tall tales about an alleged avatar and magician. Needless to say, I never went back to any other primal conferences and eventually gave up on primal.

Good post, this is a topic i always wanted to know more about.

As a random point, your avatar is disturbing the **** out of me, lol. Not because of what it is, but because i was watching something the other day that described that, and today, i just happen to see it in your avatar.

[laarree]

I was a member of Direct Centering. I'd like to talk to you about it. I'm curious to find others who left the cult.

Hi, I responded to your private message, FYI.

[laarree]

Good post, this is a topic i always wanted to know more about.

As a random point, your avatar is disturbing the **** out of me, lol. Not because of what it is, but because i was watching something the other day that described that, and today, i just happen to see it in your avatar.

Yeah, my fish head photo is kind of gross, isn't it? Delicious, but gross. :p