why we are religious

[reverebison]

Why are we religious? Why do we believe in a 2000 year old book with tales of Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark. Fantastic tales that can and never will be proven. We have evolution. We have science.

Yet most of us continue to believe in the supernatural. We believe in God.

There are those who do not believe in such. Are they smarter than we?

I see many people who are brilliant, yet they believe, so belief in religion cannot be linked to intelligence.

But religion can be linked to one human trait, a trait universal in our species and the most powerful emotion we humans possess:

Selfishness

yes, selfishness


Think about it, what do we get for throwing logic and truth out the window. What do we get for blasphemizing common sense. For ignoring all the mountains of proof that evolution has shown us.

What do we get for believing in the utterly ridiculous all with a serious, completely straight face.

we get eternal life.

[ned flandas]

I'm not sure that for all people it is about a selfish need to have eternal life.

For me as a Christian, it is all about getting back to how we are supposed to be, and that is in a relationship with God. Adam walked and talked and fellowshipped with God... I beleive that this was an awesome experience. One that we are made for.

I also beleive that Jesus made it possible for us to have that relationship again.

Is that selfish? Is it selfish to want to be able to spend time with our heavenly father?

[Darth Rotor]

Why are we religious? Why do we believe in a 2000 year old book with tales of Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark. Fantastic tales that can and never will be proven. We have evolution. We have science.

Yet most of us continue to believe in the supernatural. We believe in God.

There are those who do not believe in such. Are they smarter than we?

I see many people who are brilliant, yet they believe, so belief in religion cannot be linked to intelligence.

But religion can be linked to one human trait, a trait universal in our species and the most powerful emotion we humans possess:

Selfishness

yes, selfishness


Think about it, what do we get for throwing logic and truth out the window. What do we get for blasphemizing common sense. For ignoring all the mountains of proof that evolution has shown us.

What do we get for believing in the utterly ridiculous all with a serious, completely straight face.

we get eternal life.

1. Which religion?

2. Who is this "we" you refer to? You are on a skeptics forum, where most of the people aren't religious.

3. Why do you care?

DR

[triadboy]

Religion is a side-effect of the brain's self-awareness of its own mortality.

[DaveyM]

We are religious because we are brought up with those ideas. Children are vulnerable and willing to accept things as they are told. The same person brought up in a different culture or religion would accept those ideas easily. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to get over it; some never do.

[slingblade]

we get eternal life.

You believe you do. There's no evidence for that.

I believe I don't. There's no evidence for that, either, but at the very least, it forces me to concentrate on living this life, right now. Not on making sure I don't violate any of the rules of my death-cult, in preparation for an afterlife I have no evidence I'll even see.

As to "selfishness," all life is selfish, in that it seeks to preserve itself. Even plants do this, not just conscious or sentient beings.

Most of us figure out, sooner or later, that cooperating with the group helps to insure our survival, so even when we're doing the group-thing, it's for our personal benefit.

[RandFan]

reverebison

I was rather hoping you would respond in your other thread, The Meaning of Life (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=112772).

Are you here simply to lecture us or will you engage in discussion of your ideas?

[RandFan]

Selfishness... ~meh. Not without some measure of truth but overly simplistic and not at all comprehensive. Not all individuals and groups have even believed in an afterlife. There are other very good explanations. Humans are complex and diverse. No single answer is likely to adequately explain something like belief and religion.

[Oubliette]

Religion is a side-effect of the brain's self-awareness of its own mortality.

That's what I think too, among other things like:

-A way to justify many things.

-A way to manipulate people and control the masses.

[Bikewer]

How true are these things when referring to religions that existed prior to our current run of theologies?
I think we can push the "religion as a hedge against physical death" way back to prehistory.

Let's face it; we humans are (so far as we know) the only species that's capable of sitting around thinking "Hey, I'll be dead someday!" Other animals react strongly to the deaths of siblings, offspring, mates... But we're the only ones that can worry about it.
Not a comforting thought to our primitive ancestors.
So it's not surprising that the myths of peoples all over the world featured some sort of survival. In many cases, it wasn't very pleasant, or (just like religions that came later) the pleasant bits were restricted to the best classes; Kings, priests, outstanding warriors.

Couple this with now well-understood psychological phenomena that would have reinforced the idea that deceased relatives were still around in some way...

[Complexity]

We aren't religious.

They are religious.

[ParanoidAndroid]

When people believe...

In most cases (not all) I suspect it might be largely a matter of comfort. Most people derive a sense of comfort (in one flavor or another) from religion, whether it be forgiveness for actions or thoughts, observance of tradition, association to a community, adherence to indoctrination, a sense of being part of something that makes a person more than their day-to-day suffering, a cheap, legal, and dependable high, or just the alleviation of fear regarding death and all its question marks. It might be too simple an answer, but it certainly applies (at least in part) to many of the religious people I've known.

For those who have experienced trauma or abuse under the guise of religion, this can be understandably hard to relate to. I have had no such negative experience with religion or the religious and I still can't understand all that well the reasons people believe what they do.

[dglas]

Seems to me religion is all about community. As atheism and skepticism goes mainstream and develops a community it will start attracting more people, I think.

[Darth Rotor]

Seems to me religion is all about community. As atheism and skepticism goes mainstream and develops a community it will start attracting more people, I think.
Betting the over. The larger the community, the more chances it has to become involved in an ideological war. We note from history that ideological wars often erupt into decidedly sanguine physical slaughter.

Be careful what you wish for, as you may well get it. :)

DR

[slingblade]

Betting the over. The larger the community, the more chances it has to become involved in an ideological war. We note from history that ideological wars often erupt into decidedly sanguine physical slaughter.

Be careful what you wish for, as you may well get it. :)

DR

I hope so. They wouldn't let me join the Gay War (bisexuals are just wannabe lesbians who haven't yet come out of their own closets, I was told), and I've seen no combat time in the Drug War.

In the Atheist War, I plan to be the cute babe who passes out the doughnuts and coffee to our brave troops.

[Darth Rotor]

I hope so. They wouldn't let me join the Gay War (bisexuals are just wannabe lesbians who haven't yet come out of their own closets, I was told), and I've seen no combat time in the Drug War.

In the Atheist War, I plan to be the cute babe who passes out the doughnuts and coffee to our brave troops.
Ah, one of the babes from the USO, the United Skeptics' Orgasmatron Organization.

*hit it boys*
*band strikes up jaunty tune*

Singing:

Don't sit under the Dawkins tree
With anyone else but me
With anyone else but me
With anyone else but me
Don't sit under the Dawkins tree . . .

DR

[dglas]

Ooooh. Doughnuts and coffee!

Strike a pose for me, sweetheart. ;)

[rocketdodger]

The OP is right, but its old news.

It has been known for years that it is a trivial matter to show that everyone does everything out of selfishness -- all you have to do is define "benefit" the right way.

[dglas]

The OP is right, but its old news.

It has been known for years that it is a trivial matter to show that everyone does everything out of selfishness -- all you have to do is define "benefit" the right way.

Gah! Self-Interest again. Explains everything but prohibits nothing. Don't just replace one God with another, dude.

[rocketdodger]

Gah! Self-Interest again. Explains everything but prohibits nothing. Don't just replace one God with another, dude.

?

All I am saying is that your muscles require volition to work, and it wouldn't be hard to finaggle a definition of self-interest based on volition.

[Cainkane1]

People want to be alive again after they die. Its not going to happen but that the point of religion. Getting alive again.

[Piscivore]

All I am saying is that your muscles require volition to work

Is that so?

[rocketdodger]

Is that so?

Ugh.

Muscles require volition to work ... together towards any sort of goal that most people would consider "doing" something.

Is that better?

[Piscivore]

Ugh.

Muscles require volition to work ... together towards any sort of goal that most people would consider "doing" something.

Is that better?

Not really, because it still has "Muscles require volition to work" in it. Maybe I'd better ask- how you are using the word "volition"?

[thaiboxerken]

Indoctrination is why most people are religious.

[Huh-What?]

I would have to go with FEAR.

Fear of death.
Fear of being alone.
Fear of helplessness.
Fear of loss or change.
Fear of the unknown.

Don't get me wrong fear serves a definite purpose and has helped us survive as a species.

After all the reaction I get most often when I let some one know I am an atheist is horror. If the reaction was a giggle and a "well all the more heaven for me" look then I would believe it was selfishness.

[Piscivore]

After all the reaction I get most often when I let some one know I am an atheist is horror.

I keep hearing people say this, yet the only reactions I ever get are some mix of curiosity and apathy.

[rocketdodger]

Not really, because it still has "Muscles require volition to work" in it. Maybe I'd better ask- how you are using the word "volition"?

As in, in order for the muscles of your arm to reach out and grab a cookie to eat, some sort of volition on your part is required. Your arm doesn't just spasm randomly and reach out to grab a cookie. Some decision was made in your mind.

[ParanoidAndroid]

After all the reaction I get most often when I let some one know I am an atheist is horror.

I keep hearing people say this, yet the only reactions I ever get are some mix of curiosity and apathy.


This is the case for me as well: curiosity and apathy (with the added occasional comments of approval and agreement). Perhaps we have been sheltered, or...?

[Piscivore]

As in, in order for the muscles of your arm to reach out and grab a cookie to eat, some sort of volition on your part is required. Your arm doesn't just spasm randomly and reach out to grab a cookie. Some decision was made in your mind.

Just making sure we are talking about the same thing.

Again I ask: are you sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet) there needs to be a concious descision?

[dglas]

The OP is right, but its old news.

It has been known for years that it is a trivial matter to show that everyone does everything out of selfishness -- all you have to do is define "benefit" the right way.
Gah! Self-Interest again. Explains everything but prohibits nothing. Don't just replace one God with another, dude.

When I made this comment, I was referring to the idea that self-interest (or as you put it "selfishness") has been defined such that it explains everything, but prohibits nothing and therefore provides no predictive power in itself - a God-concept. I suspect you already know this, since you mention defining "benefit."

Part of moving from a God-concept orientation to a more scientific one is creating explanatory devices that actually do more than just "explain." They must also provide predictive power (prohibiting most if not all alternatives to the predicted result).

Perhaps I said this in too cryptic a manner before. If so, my apologies.

[e11even]

No, it is not selfishness, it is a term that is not available in the English language but is named fitra or fitrah in Arabic. It is a basic instinct in the human race that needs to be satisfied. It is more satisfied with religion than science.

[dglas]

No, it is not selfishness, it is a term that is not available in the English language but is named fitra or fitrah in Arabic. It is a basic instinct in the human race that needs to be satisfied. It is more satisfied with religion than science.

Ah. So someone has given a name to their desire to be religious.

Lessee. Can anyone think of a name we could assign to the desire to be rational? Let's call it "reason." It is a term that is not available in religious languages. It is a basic instinct to understand things as they are, not just as we wish they were.

It is more satisfied by science than it is by religion.

[Piscivore]

No, it is not selfishness, it is a term that is not available in the English language but is named fitra or fitrah in Arabic. It is a basic instinct in the human race that needs to be satisfied. It is more satisfied with religion than science.

Does this have more to do with having a sense of certainty, or having a concept of something "greater" than oneself? Or both?

And welcome to the forum.

[rocketdodger]

Just making sure we are talking about the same thing.

Again I ask: are you sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet) there needs to be a concious descision?

No -- that might be why I didn't use "conscious" in my statement! I just said "decision."

I probably think much like you, Pisc. As an AI programmer I don't really concern myself with the vague high level terms that so many armchair philosophers use to obscure rather than clarify the issues we are concerned with.

[Piscivore]

No -- that might be why I didn't use "conscious" in my statement! I just said "decision."
You implied it when you used volition, and characterised it as an action that was not random. That's why I asked for clarification of the word. If that's not what you meant, that's cool. The way I see it we are more or less little pachinko balls cascading down a fractal pattern of stimulus, memory, and influence with a little tape recorder taking notes on what happens and calling the record the "will" of the organism.

I probably think much like you, Pisc.
It would seem we do, in this area.

As an AI programmer...
How's it going? Will we have self aware robot hookers in my lifetime? :)

I don't really concern myself with the vague high level terms that so many armchair philosophers use to obscure rather than clarify the issues we are concerned with.
Vague terms are endemic in our language, unfortunately. It's one of the reasons English is so wonderful for poetry and art and yet so dreadfully inadequate for science and epistemology. It seems to me that most of the "woo" we are faced with- religious, new age, pseudoscience- has at the roots simple errors of equivocation.

[rocketdodger]

You implied it when you used volition, and characterised it as an action that was not random. That's why I asked for clarification of the word. If that's not what you meant, that's cool. The way I see it we are more or less little pachinko balls cascading down a fractal pattern of stimulus, memory, and influence with a little tape recorder taking notes on what happens and calling the record the "will" of the organism.
That is probably a fair characterization of what actually occurs. All I meant by "volition" is that something, somewhere must determine that a muscle movement is in its best interest before a muscle moves. Whether the process that does the deciding is conscious or not is irrelevant.

How's it going? Will we have self aware robot hookers in my lifetime? :)
Most certainly, but they will not be hookers (they will give up their goods for free) and they will NOT look like a shiny plastic Jude Law.

[Piscivore]

That is probably a fair characterization of what actually occurs. All I meant by "volition" is that something, somewhere must determine that a muscle movement is in its best interest before a muscle moves. Whether the process that does the deciding is conscious or not is irrelevant.
You've still got consciouness lurking in there. You mention "something" that is aware of itself and capable of making choices to its benefit. There is no such entity necessarily responsible for muscle movement.

Most certainly, but they will not be hookers (they will give up their goods for free) and they will NOT look like a shiny plastic Jude Law.
I can haz Cherry 2000? :D

[Pardalis]

we get eternal life.

How do you know?

[DoubtingStephen]

People want to be alive again after they die. Its not going to happen but that the point of religion. Getting alive again.

So can we then conclude that all religions are dismal failures?

[ParanoidAndroid]

People want to be alive again after they die. Its not going to happen but that the point of religion. Getting alive again.

So can we then conclude that all religions are dismal failures?


Sorry to butt in on your humor...

:nope: If only it were so easy; what with all of (some) religion's success @ bilking money from their flocks, increasing the size of their flocks, their continued success at creating and maintaining social inequities, etc.

Eternal life may be the purpose of some religious, but at best, it's only one of a multitude of purposes for religions.

...thanks for letting me cut in briefly. :D

[articulett]

I'd say threats of hell has something to do with it-- Pascal's wager.

And people feel that faith is ennobling... it makes them feel like they are better more moral people than all those who believe different or (gasp) don't believe in any supernatural entity.

I suspect that lots of people don't know what they believe or why or how much... they are just not willing to think about it too deeply or logically... they like knowing THAT they believe... and they think this may be the key to salvation (because people they trust have told them so.)

It seems like it's easier just to go along and say you believe in whatever you've been indoctrinated to believe in then to "fly without a faith net".

[rocketdodger]

You've still got consciouness lurking in there. You mention "something" that is aware of itself and capable of making choices to its benefit. There is no such entity necessarily responsible for muscle movement.

I didn't say it was aware of itself. I did say it is capable of making choices to its benefit. I also said that I am talking about "coordinated" muscle movements, which implies something more than the simple circuits in our spine responsible for a walking gait.

I don't understand why you are arguing here. If you reach out to grab a cookie, it is not the muscles in your arms randomly firing to produce that behavior -- it is a concerted effort driven by a selfish choice somewhere in the mess of processes that taken together one considers a "mind."

[e11even]

Does this have more to do with having a sense of certainty, or having a concept of something "greater" than oneself? Or both?

And welcome to the forum.

It is that feeling deep inside of longing. I would think everyone experiences it to some degree.
Thanx for the welcome. I tried the theology forum but it was all x-ians. And this forum seems to be all atheists. Oh well.

[Autolite]

Why are we religious?

Many folks need religion for the same reason that many other folks need drugs, alcohol or woo. Stark reality is just too unappealing for most people...

[articulett]

It is that feeling deep inside of longing. I would think everyone experiences it to some degree.
Thanx for the welcome. I tried the theology forum but it was all x-ians. And this forum seems to be all atheists. Oh well.

Probably more than half, but most certainly not all. What theology forums did you try? Because this is a skeptics forum, most people are skeptical of most supernatural claims --including religious miracles.

[e11even]

Probably more than half, but most certainly not all. What theology forums did you try? Because this is a skeptics forum, most people are skeptical of most supernatural claims --including religious miracles.
theologyonline.com This is the thing, x-ians, atheists, etc. well, there is just nothing to discuss. They are set in their ways.

[articulett]

There's the truth... facts... the stuff that is the same for every body... DNA, human perception... why people come to believe strange things... how assorted religions evolve and keep people hooked in.

Were you hoping to have a conversation that would lead you to the right true "belief system" by examining all you could get your hands on and seeing which one made the most sense? We have Mormons here, Scientologists, new agers, assorted brands of Christianities, Jews-- both secular and practicing... but most believers just believe their assorted beliefs, and feel like the other beliefs are "woo" I suspect... most people don't really want to hear about other's beliefs... they just want to convince themselves that theirs are better. Most believers who post here already think they have "the truth".... and most atheist don't believe in "divine truths"--because of a decided lack of evidence for any such claims.

What brand of "belief" do you subscribe to and what were you hoping to discuss, and how are you not "set in your ways"? Maybe we can help you find more people like you were were equally open to discuss whatever it is you want to discuss while not being more set in their ways than you are-- you sound like you don't think you are "set in your ways" while you've made snap judgments about everyone else.

Were you hoping to get some sort of special respect for whatever it is you "believe in"? Deference? Perhaps if you give out whatever it is you hope to get in return, the people here might surprise you. How much have you read before coming to your decision that everyone but you is "set in their ways" and thus "there is nothing to discuss" ?

[HghrSymmetry]

theologyonline.com This is the thing, x-ians, atheists, etc. well, there is just nothing to discuss. They are set in their ways.

Depends on what you mean by "nothing to discuss."
The topics of science and relgion are vast and wide with plenty to discuss.
If you mean to say that a particular pet woo belief is propped as "the" true woo and why one should swallow it without evidence...then yes, there's not much to discuss.
If someone says my faith is (insert favorite woo belief)...then that's it. All rational discussion pretty much stops.

Care to elaborate?

[articulett]

I bet not. Everyone is amazingly "open minded" when it comes to what they already believe or the beliefs that make them feel special while finding those who aren't open to their brand of belief "closed minded". :)

(I have a feeling that e11even might be a kid.)

[HghrSymmetry]

(I have a feeling that e11even might be a kid.)

Ah, the handle a thinly disguised chronological age perhaps.

[e11even]

Just want to thank you for replying.
I apologize.
I'm very moody.

[articulett]

No problem. I hope you find what you're looking for. I have many enjoyable discussions here. But I can see why others would not.

[HghrSymmetry]

Just want to thank you for replying.
I apologize.
I'm very moody.

Noted.