Reagan Socialism? (Obama's NC Victory Speech)

[corplinx]

I was listening to this speech and started hearing Obama talk like a republican. He was talking about how anybody can make it in america and basically talked about the american dream.

But then he turned it into a message about how all that is possible because of government assistance to the poor and middle class.

So how does the term "Reagan Socialism" sound for describing this bizarre mix of philosophies. Yes, you too can dare to dream of owning a home one day with a government loan assistance! You can dream of going to college if the government helps!

Also, I noticed in his speech that somehow homeless veterans are back as a political football. He should have learned from Edwards not to try to link homeless veterans to the Iraq war.

[President Bush]

Also, I noticed in his speech that somehow homeless veterans are back as a political football.


Seen them fellows
with the card board signs
Scrapin up a little $
To buy a bottle of wine
Pregnant women and
The Vietnam vets I say
Beggin on the freeway
Bout as hard as it gets

Tom Waits (http://www.lyricsdomain.com/20/tom_waits/cold_water.html)

[Dragoonster]

I was listening to this speech and started hearing Obama talk like a republican. He was talking about how anybody can make it in america and basically talked about the american dream.

But then he turned it into a message about how all that is possible because of government assistance to the poor and middle class.

So how does the term "Reagan Socialism" sound for describing this bizarre mix of philosophies. Yes, you too can dare to dream of owning a home one day with a government loan assistance! You can dream of going to college if the government helps!

I'm not familiar with Reagan's approach, but as a lower-class person growing up, the only way I could have gone to College without Pell Grants and Perkins Loans is if I'd worked for several years between high school and college. Maybe conservatives would rather I had done that, but I'm glad the opportunity was there right out of high school through my government's programs. /shrug

[Dr Adequate]

Well, corplinx, the thing is that every time you hear Obama speak, you have a strange mental disorder that makes you hear him say weird things that he didn't say. This babble about "Reagan Socialism" is another of your stupid fantasies.

In my experience, it is impossible to convince you that Obama said what he actually said. So you are never going to find out what he said. You may as well resign yourself to that.

Enjoy your dreamworld instead.

[corplinx]

Well, corplinx, the thing is that every time you hear Obama speak, you have a strange mental disorder that makes you hear him say weird things that he didn't say. This babble about "Reagan Socialism" is another of your stupid fantasies.

In my experience, it is impossible to convince you that Obama said what he actually said. So you are never going to find out what he said. You may as well resign yourself to that.

Enjoy your dreamworld instead.

You go on ignore now. Buh bye. You have reached the point of total blindedness in your weird zeal.

[Unalienable]

I took the trouble to look up Obama's NC victory speech:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/05/06/obamas-north-carolina-victory-speech/

I don't see the name "Reagan" or the word "socialism" appear even once.

I would however accuse Reagan of embracing a mild form of socialism. The entire "trickle-down economy" nonsense is effectively a socialist method of redistributing wealth. So while the idea may have merit, I still don't see what it has to do with Obama.

[Dr Adequate]

You go on ignore now. Buh bye. You have reached the point of total blindedness in your weird zeal. Ah, the unconscious irony.

You will put me on "ignore", and make yourself totally blind to my posts, because (as you explain) my "zeal" has induced in me a state that you refer to as "total blindedness".

So shut up your eyes with "blindedness" and stop up your ears with "deafenedness". I'll still be here, still making fun of you, and you will be too "blindedednessed" to answer back.

[corplinx]

I don't see the name "Reagan" or the word "socialism" appear even once.


I never claimed he said those words. I used those words to describe the idea he tried to convey in one section of his speech. I laid it out pretty plainly in my opening post. Read my own words instead of Adequate's reply of "HE DIDNT SAY THOSE EXACT WURDS< YOURE LOONEY".

Obama gave a very Reagan-esque few paragraphs in the speech about how anyone can succeed in America. (hence my first adjective of Reagan-)

Then he attributed this greatness to the ability of people to access government programs, assistance, or in some case handouts. (hence the second adjective, socialism)

Normally the "anyone can make it in america" line of speaking is a preface for conservatives to espouse the wonder of mostly-free markets and pseudo-capitalism. Obama however bridged that message into one of cradle-to-grave care.

This idea seemed to fly over Adequate's head (and his constant "I SEE NOTHING" is why he's now on ignore).

I think it was a very, very intelligent bridging of those ideas by Obama and I give him mad props for it. I don't buy into it. But I think its an effective speech and effective idea. Its talk that probably will work well in blue collar democrat circles.

[hgc]

He was talking about how anybody can make it in america and basically talked about the american dream.


ergo

Obama talk[s] like a republican.


This has been another episode of Fantasy Memes, with your host, corplinx.

[corplinx]

ergo




This has been another episode of Fantasy Memes, with your host, corplinx.

The fantasy meme is itself a meme. In this case, you based it on a strawman to boot. Cheers.

[Hokulele]

Obama gave a very Reagan-esque few paragraphs in the speech about how anyone can succeed in America. (hence my first adjective of Reagan-)


This isn't the first time that Obama has sounded Reagan-esque in speeches. There were several very early on in the Democratic primary campaign that brought me right back to the '80's. I thought back then, and again now, that he is looking past the primary races to the general election, where this type of party-blending will be required to come away with a large enough margin of victory to be able to declare "mandate" and start working with a very split Congress. I believe the reason this type of rhetoric was dropped for several months was so that Obama could focus on the party mainstream.

By catering to the moderates (again, much as Reagan did), Obama stands a better chance of convicing the DNC powers-that-be that he is more electable in November. Primaries are about polarization, generals are about unification.

[Dr Adequate]

I never claimed he said those words. I used those words to describe the idea he tried to convey in one section of his speech. I laid it out pretty plainly in my opening post. Read my own words instead of Adequate's reply of "HE DIDNT SAY THOSE EXACT WURDS< YOURE LOONEY".

Obama gave a very Reagan-esque few paragraphs in the speech about how anyone can succeed in America. (hence my first adjective of Reagan-)

Then he attributed this greatness to the ability of people to access government programs, assistance, or in some case handouts. (hence the second adjective, socialism)

Normally the "anyone can make it in america" line of speaking is a preface for conservatives to espouse the wonder of mostly-free markets and pseudo-capitalism. Obama however bridged that message into one of cradle-to-grave care.

This idea seemed to fly over Adequate's head (and his constant "I SEE NOTHING" is why he's now on ignore).

I think it was a very, very intelligent bridging of those ideas by Obama and I give him mad props for it. I don't buy into it. But I think its an effective speech and effective idea. Its talk that probably will work well in blue collar democrat circles. Can you give us one good reason why we should not think that you are insane?

[Hokulele]

Can you give us one good reason why we should not think that you are insane?


Well, I can see his point, although I strongly disagree on some of the details. The thing is, campaign speeches do not make policy. Now, if Obama is saying the same things in 2012 when running for his second term, then I might reconsider.

[Dr Adequate]

... instead of Adequate's reply of "HE DIDNT SAY THOSE EXACT WURDS< YOURE LOONEY".

[...]

... This idea seemed to fly over Adequate's head (and his constant "I SEE NOTHING" is why he's now on ignore). This does make me curious. Corplinx has lied about my opinions since he went, y'know, la-la in the head, and I was thinking that this is kind of normal for nutty people; but now that he's so frightened of my opinions that he's put me on "ignore", now that he's perfectly insulated from ever finding out my actual opinions, he puts his lies about my opinions IN CAPITAL LETTERS, LIKE THIS.

I have never previously observed this symptom. Can anyone explain it?

[corplinx]

This isn't the first time that Obama has sounded Reagan-esque in speeches.

Which makes one wonder why I got such pushback for suggesting it...... There's nothing wrong with being Reagan-esque in a speech. Reagan gave good speeches.

[Hokulele]

Which makes one wonder why I got such pushback for suggesting it.......


Because you suggested it on an Internet forum.

[Dr Adequate]

Which makes one wonder why I got such pushback for suggesting it...... There's nothing wrong with being Reagan-esque in a speech. Reagan gave good speeches. Nice backpedal.

[Snide]

I was listening to this speech and started hearing Obama talk like a republican. He was talking about how anybody can make it in america and basically talked about the american dream.I have never felt that sentence two is talking "like a republican." I know Republicans have tried to paint themselves as the only ones being about that, but my personal experience has been nothing of the sort. In fact, much of it would indicate just the opposite.

[Darth Rotor]

Can you give us one good reason why we should not think that you are insane?
Who is this "we" Dr A? Corplinx is hardly insane, and also provides something rather rare on this forum, original thoughts and ideas. Attempting to reframe what he says reflects more on the reframer than on him.

Amusing for you, no doubt, but not compelling to the peanut gallery.

*munches a peanut*

DR

[Dr Adequate]

Who is this "we" Dr A? People reading this thread, obviously.

Corplinx is hardly insane, and also provides something rather rare on this forum, original thoughts and ideas. Yeah, but his "original thoughts and ideas" are all stupid. To the point of madness.

Attempting to reframe what he says reflects more on the reframer than on him.

Amusing for you, no doubt, but not compelling to the peanut gallery. I did not "reframe" his words. I quoted them. He said "Reagan Socialism". I quoted him doing so.

By comparison:

Read my own words instead of Adequate's reply of "HE DIDNT SAY THOSE EXACT WURDS< YOURE LOONEY".

[...]

This idea seemed to fly over Adequate's head (and his constant "I SEE NOTHING" is why he's now on ignore). The only reason that this doesn't count as "reframing my words" is that that would suggest some remote resemblance between what I actually said and what he pretends I said.

[Darth Rotor]

Yeah, but his "original thoughts and ideas" are all stupid. To the point of madness.

This from a poster with a talent for language. I am disappointed. I find your assessment shallow, hyperbolic, and nasty for the sake of nastiness. Zero value added. (Yeah, I've walked a furlong in those slippers myself.)

As to attempts to compare a presidential candidate to other presidents, it is common currency in the US rhetoric surrounding elections. For reasons of symbolic value, many candidates like to try and associate themselves with the JFK symbol, so an association to the Reagan symbol, known to many American pundits as "The Great Communicator" is not far fetched. Heck, it is a compliment to Obama's skills in political communication. (For contrast, see W, 'nuff said.)

The synthesis corplix offers -- note, he's not making a claim, he's offering it up as an idea -- may not be airtight, most things relating to politics are not, but I found his combining of the symbols of Reagan's talent for political speaking, and elements of socialism as an operative mode in US politics, an appeal to voters, good enough given the topic at hand: US Presidential elections. All too often, that topic is whitewashed with commentary all to often made of hype and rubbish.

DR

[Tailgater]

People reading this thread, obviously.


Speak for yourself. You are the only one acting out of line in this thread. While not a great comparison, I understand what he is saying, unlike some asshats.

[Dr Adequate]

Speak for yourself. When asked what I mean, I can certainly speak for no-one else.

[Tony]

"Talk like a republican" = Saying things I like to hear

[Tailgater]

This from a poster with a talent for language. I am disappointed. I find your assessment shallow, hyperbolic, and nasty for the sake of nastiness. Zero value added. (Yeah, I've walked a furlong in those slippers myself.)

As to attempts to compare a presidential candidate to other presidents, it is common currency in the US rhetoric surrounding elections. For reasons of symbolic value, many candidates like to try and associate themselves with the JFK symbol, so an association to the Reagan symbol, known to many American pundits as "The Great Communicator" is not far fetched. Heck, it is a compliment to Obama's skills in political communication. (For contrast, see W, 'nuff said.)

The synthesis corplix offers -- note, he's not making a claim, he's offering it up as an idea -- may not be airtight, most things relating to politics are not, but I found his combining of the symbols of Reagan's talent for political speaking, and elements of socialism as an operative mode in US politics, an appeal to voters, good enough given the topic at hand: US Presidential elections. All too often, that topic is whitewashed with commentary all to often made of hype and rubbish.

DR

The Reagan part I took less as his communication skills and more about the individual drive to success making this country great stuff, but I could be wrong or it could be a little of both. Either way, the balance between "individual responsibility" and "share everything with your neighbor" is what really makes this country great (and the west in general). I would never want to give absolute control to one party or set of ideals to run the US.

[Dr Adequate]

This from a poster with a talent for language. Yes, well, sometimes I just go in for plain-speaking. What do you want me to do, write a poem about him?

I am disappointed. Aw.

I find your assessment shallow, hyperbolic, and nasty for the sake of nastiness. Whereas I find it an accurate assessment of someone who, having put me on ignore, continues to spout crazy malicious lies about me in capital letters.

... so an association to the Reagan symbol, known to many American pundits as "The Great Communicator" is not far fetched. Heck, it is a compliment to Obama's skills in political communication. (For contrast, see W, 'nuff said.)

The synthesis corplix offers -- note, he's not making a claim, he's offering it up as an idea -- may not be airtight, most things relating to politics are not, but I found his combining of the symbols of Reagan's talent for political speaking ... But now you're talking about corplinx's backpedal. If his OP had said: "You know what? They called Reagan "The Great Communicator", but I'm thinking Obama is at least as good as him", then I should not have objected. Attempting to summarize Obama's political views as "Reagan Socialism", however, is daft.

[corplinx]

"Talk like a republican" = Saying things I like to hear

I think the american dream is a BS idea. Not everyone can become Bill Gates. I think the GOP tendency to talk about it in that framing is a flaw of theirs. They want to hit the same nerve that people use when they buy a powerball ticket.

If anything, Obama's american dream is much more realistic as he conveyed in that speech. He didn't say that america was a land of opportunity where you can go from being a penniless immigrant to a robber baron. His american dream was about families on tight budgets still sending their kids to college.

If he had said what I want to hear, he would have said "as president I will order Jessica Alba to pose in playboy".

The next round of martinis is on me Tony.

[Tailgater]

When asked what I mean, I can certainly speak for no-one else.

DA-"one good reason why we should not think that you are insane"

DR-"Who is this "we" Dr A?"

DA-"People reading this thread, obviously"

TG-"Speak for yourself"

DA-"When asked what I mean, I can certainly speak for no-one else"

Ya ok.:boggled:

[Dr Adequate]

DA-"one good reason why we should not think that you are insane"

DR-"Who is this "we" Dr A?"

DA-"People reading this thread, obviously"

TG-"Speak for yourself"

DA-"When asked what I mean, I can certainly speak for no-one else"

Ya ok.:boggled: I try to be precise in saying what I mean. If other people would be equally precise in reading what I say, that would make me happy.

[Tailgater]

I try to be precise in saying what I mean. If other people would be equally precise in reading what I say, that would make me happy.

I showed exactly what you said in your sarcastic revisionist way. Really no need for further useless posts. I think you have enough in this thread already.

[Dr Adequate]

I showed exactly what you said in your sarcastic revisionist way. Really no need for further useless posts. I think you have enough in this thread already. If this means that you're going to let your silliness drop, good for you. I just wish that I could teach other people the same lesson so quickly.

[Tailgater]

If this means that you're going to let your silliness drop, good for you. I just wish that I could teach other people the same lesson so quickly.

Ok, that was a good one.

I've learned that just because two people argue, it doesn't mean they don't love each other. And just because they don't argue, it doesn't mean they do love each other.;)


http://www.indianchild.com/lesson_in_life.htm

[Dr Adequate]

Ok, that was a good one. You set 'em up, I'll knock 'em down.

I've learned that just because two people argue, it doesn't mean they don't love each other. And just because they don't argue, it doesn't mean they do love each other.;)


http://www.indianchild.com/lesson_in_life.htm If you're trying to tell me that you love me, let me say that the feeling is not as yet mutual ...

... are you cute?

[Darth Rotor]

Whereas I find it an accurate assessment of someone who, having put me on ignore, continues to spout crazy malicious lies about me in capital letters.
Dr A, from the evidence in this thread alone, you appear to take the position that when you use a bit of exaggeration, it is sarcasm and wit, and when corplinx does so, it is lies. Geese and ganders, and note once again, from the OP:
So how does the term "Reagan Socialism" sound for describing this bizarre mix of philosophies. Yes, you too can dare to dream of owning a home one day with a government loan assistance! You can dream of going to college if the government helps!
No claim made. Solicitation of input desired.

Your input (paraphrased without the bile): "Not a good mix."

I've nagged enough. Obama isn't Ronald Reagan, nor is he the second coming of JFK, nor the second coming of a socialist Abraham Lincoln, nor Gerald Ford's smarter third cousin.

DR

[Suddenly]

I'm not familiar with Reagan's approach, but as a lower-class person growing up, the only way I could have gone to College without Pell Grants and Perkins Loans is if I'd worked for several years between high school and college. Maybe conservatives would rather I had done that, but I'm glad the opportunity was there right out of high school through my government's programs. /shrug

Lazy welfare freeloader. Don't you know that no government assistance ever helped everyone? You may think that these programs allowed you become educated faster, and thus a more productive member of society instead of leaving your potential undeveloped while you waited tables. In reality it made you not realize that Ronald Reagan was The Greatest Thing Ever, and such damage is impossible to remedy.

Once you understand that all government programs are socialism, and all socialism is bad, you will be much better off. While Ronald Reagan presided over the biggest expansion of government spending ever, at least he cut taxes and managed to develop a massive deficit during a time of economic expansion brought on by low energy prices. Of course, if you were a steelworker or coal miner you were probably busy trying to get hired at McDonalds because the cheap energy and dedication to free markets lost you your job. In that case it is your fault for not being a stockbroker in the first place.

Sure, some government help in retraining for a different job would be nice, but that would be socialism and would have made Ronald Reagan cry.





xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Actually I have nobody to blame but myself. I thought this was a Darth Rotor thread because he was the last poster. When I clicked on it and saw who the OP was it was like being rickrolled, just 1,000,000 times worse.

[Darth Rotor]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Actually I have nobody to blame but myself. I thought this was a Darth Rotor thread because he was the last poster. When I clicked on it and saw who the OP was it was like being rickrolled, just 1,000,000 times worse.
Should I be worried? ;)

My life insurance is paid up, so should my wife be planning a shopping spree in the near future? :jaw-dropp

DR

[joobz]

I was listening to this speech and started hearing Obama talk like a republican. He was talking about how anybody can make it in america and basically talked about the american dream.

But then he turned it into a message about how all that is possible because of government assistance to the poor and middle class.

So how does the term "Reagan Socialism" sound for describing this bizarre mix of philosophies. Yes, you too can dare to dream of owning a home one day with a government loan assistance! You can dream of going to college if the government helps!

Also, I noticed in his speech that somehow homeless veterans are back as a political football. He should have learned from Edwards not to try to link homeless veterans to the Iraq war.
I see nothing new in the idea of a level playing field as a starting point for acheiving the american dream. Both parties have always supported the idea. the only disagreement that comes to play is what one means by a level playing field. To republicans, it's playing with the hand you were dealt. To Democrats, it's implementing a handicap to make the game more interesting. Obviously, gridlock is the result of using two completely different gaming metaphors.

[Suddenly]

Should I be worried? ;)

My life insurance is paid up, so should my wife be planning a shopping spree in the near future? :jaw-dropp

DR

Hey man. There are few posters here that will cause me to click on a thread I otherwise wouldn't be interested in, fewer yet that aren't nutjobs. You generally deliver the goods.

Just quit unwittingly fooling me into clicking on Corps' threads and all will be fine.

That or start behaving like some sort of defective bot off the Young Republicans' assembly line circa 1995 so I start giving your threads a miss as well. Either way...

[Darth Rotor]

Hey man. There are few posters here that will cause me to click on a thread I otherwise wouldn't be interested in, fewer yet that aren't nutjobs. You generally deliver the goods.
I blush, sir. :blush:

Just quit unwittingly fooling me into clicking on Corps' threads and all will be fine.
I'll put my best man on it! :D
That or start behaving like some sort of defective bot off the Young Republicans' assembly line circa 1995 . . .
Not bloody likely. ;)

DR

[daredelvis]

That or start behaving like some sort of defective bot off the Young Republicans' assembly line circa 1995 so I start giving your threads a miss as well. Either way...

From my experience they have been rolling them off the line since at least 1985.

Daredelvis

[dudalb]

It was a nicely delivered speech that had something in it for everyone,and was careful to avoid offending any potential voter.
And Obama begins the dance toward the political center.
I wonder when he adapts a solidly centrist line if any of his more liberal supporters will begin to take potshots at him.

[Dr Adequate]

Dr A, from the evidence in this thread alone, you appear to take the position that when you use a bit of exaggeration, it is sarcasm and wit, and when corplinx does so, it is lies. I call 'em as I see them.