Best way to refute these claims?

[McCragge]

Icame across a fundamentalist blog titled

"How Do Athiests/Agnostics and The World Explain..."

Intrigued I looked into it. I am pretty sure there is nothing I could say that would sway this persons beliefs, but I am curious how one would go about refuting these outlandish claims.

here is what the blog said

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

I really wonder what the world has to say about the miracles that i have experienced in my own body and have experienced them happen to other people first hand...

Answer me this:

1) How would my arch (normaly very high, i have high arches, healthy feet), which was totally flat on the ground, pop back up over night after being prayed for when i was told by a medicly trained physical therapist that it'd take a year or so to reabilitate that condition?

2) How does a paralized hand (paralized from a very very young age or from stroke, i'v seen both situations) open up and become as dexerous as the other normal hand in under 3hr after 15min of praying for healing from the God of the Bible... ?

3) How could a blind from birth person see clearly for the first time instantly from 30min of praying for healing?

4) How can a cracked in half shin bone move back in place, reatatch itself, grow back to the other part of the shin, all torn blood vessles grow back, all torn and damaged nerves grow back and muscles reatatch and grow back in under 2hrs? and how could his swelling from a volleyball size leg go down to normal with no pain, and the man jumping around praising God for healing him... how does this happen?

5) How can it be possible for a childs deaf ears open up for the first time since birth after praying for her for 10min... she was flippin out b/c she was scared of all the noise she was now hearing that shes never heard before.

6) How does someone with an obvious mental disorder be set free mentaly in just a 10min prayer session for healing? Phyco therapy takes months and months along with strong medication to help a person get over somehting like that, and most of the time the drugs just surpress the symptoms but dosn't cure the problem like God can... HOW?

7) How can a young man (20s...) be dead for three days, pumped full of imbalming fluids, be in the morge in a fridge and be awakened, raised from the dead b/c his amily and village was praying for God to raise him up... that is impossible with science, but "... with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26)

Apart from the miracles of healing how can i know very private information about someone when i'v never met them before? (i'm not psychic, or claim to be)

8) On more then one acount the Holy Spirit has dropped into my intellect/mind a specific persons face, there name and the problems that God wants to take care of and heal in them... a part of them that they have never told anyone b/c its to painfull or a situation in there past that i would not have possible known of?

9) How can others seem to tell the future of events that have been recorded to happen in very specific ways as not to be open to any interpretation... specific names, dates, times and events... how is this possible?

10) Also, how could more then two people not in any relation to eachother, at different times and different places all over the earth foresee (prophesy) of the same event in fine detail? For example this Florida healing revival in lakeland, as well as almost every revival that happened in history, and thats the same for the Bible. Every one of the authors were in perfect sync writing of the same gospel but many were of different cultures, times and locations but wrote about the same truths?

I'm sure the world has tons of answers for these questions... eather "your lying" or "bending the truth" or i'm "unaware of the unnoticed details of the situation that made my reasoning seem to have some persuasion on the situation"... tons of others i'm sure. but i propose that these not natural (could we say super-natural?) things that happen daily to ppl of the christian faith that walk it out, according to the Bible, are from the result of manifestation of the God of the Bible, that He really does excist, that He does have some kind of interaction with us in these manifestation.

If you really want to answer these then answer them directly, i don't want any philosophy crap or any extra off the topic discussions... this blog isn't ment to start arguements but is to show evidence of a loving, all powerful, healing God that is alive and very active in our lives (if He's not then He wants to be). If you want to further duscuss stuff then message me please, but other then that just keep clear and direct answers in the comments please.

honest answers please... i'm truly curious of what yall think about it.

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

I am actually really curious if there is any evidence of the dead guy before and after, but some how, I seriously doubt it.

McCragge

[Marquis de Carabas]

Don't waste your time attempting to refute these things. Ask him for his evidence first.

[Meadmaker]

If she could learn to spell, that would be proof of God's power.

However, she answered her own question:

eather "your lying" or "bending the truth" or i'm "unaware of the unnoticed details of the situation that made my reasoning seem to have some persuasion on the situation"... tons of others i'm sure.

More likely, just passing on lies. She has a will to believe. It's a pity God never works these kinds of miracles when the cameras are rolling, or when Randi might be available to give away a million bucks to the charity of their choice.

[Safe-Keeper]

She expects anyone to believe this?

ETA: Here's a clue: If she really did have miracles happen to her, why doesn't she run down to her doctor/hospital and tell them about it? If I had a paralyzed hand and woke up one morning and could move it, I'd run down to my doctor first thing in the morning. It'd make national headlines - "After all attempts at treatments failed, paralyzed hand miracolously heals overnight after prayers".

But no, she writes about her experiences in e-mails. Jesus Christ.

[ned flandas]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism

[McCragge]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism


I suppose this person doesn't have any actual medical evidence to back those claims do they?

McCragge

[X]

Just claim that your *insert malady here* was rapidly cured after making an offering to Ba'al.


Anecdotes are utterly useless as evidence or argument.

[meg]

Well, here's how I'd explain it. It's quite simple.

People lie for Jesus. Either the writer is lying, or the person(s) who told her the story was.

[thaiboxerken]

How does someone refute pure, unadulterated BS?

[petra10]

The person seems deluded to me. Certainly if any of these things actually happened I think the medical world would be very interested.

Sometimes people like this really believe their own claims and there is nothing you can say that would change their minds. Just leave them in their own incrediable world.

[Showmeproof]

DO NOT EVEN BOTHER!!! Someone this deluded will never be swayed.

[Jeff Corey]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism
Either you are a bald faced liar or your friend is. Or both.

[Showmeproof]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism

Total BS......I did my internship in manhattan where I worked with children with autism. and no way in hell they were "healed" rapidly. You are either 1) stupid, 2)liar, 3)delusional. Choose one!!

[McCragge]

Well I think you guys were right.

I replied to the person, and for my troubles, they deleted my comments. So, it totally wasn't worth it.

I guess you have to pick your battles :|

Thanks everyone for your help


McCragge

[ned flandas]

I suppose this person doesn't have any actual medical evidence to back those claims do they?

They have medical reports by specialists in the NHS.


Total BS......I did my internship in manhattan where I worked with children with autism. and no way in hell they were "healed" rapidly. You are either 1) stupid, 2)liar, 3)delusional. Choose one!!

I'll happily admit I may be stupid,but I am not a liar or delusional. Do you want to speak to the person?

[UnrepentantSinner]

(You got your "response" but I thought I'd comment on two of these)

The answer is these things don't happen. This first one smacks of an urban legend I've been reading about for years. It supposedly happened in some west African country like Nigeria or Ghana. There's no evidence it ever happened though.

7) How can a young man (20s...) be dead for three days, pumped full of imbalming fluids, be in the morge in a fridge and be awakened, raised from the dead b/c his amily and village was praying for God to raise him up... that is impossible with science, but "... with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26)

This one I'm interested in enough to follow up on because I watched a segment on 700 Club about the Lakewood revival the other day that made all sorts of claims about healings. I didn't see any mention of prophecy about the revival occuring.

10) Also, how could more then two people not in any relation to eachother, at different times and different places all over the earth foresee (prophesy) of the same event in fine detail? For example this Florida healing revival in lakeland, as well as almost every revival that happened in history, and thats the same for the Bible. Every one of the authors were in perfect sync writing of the same gospel but many were of different cultures, times and locations but wrote about the same truths?

What are these fine details? When were these supposed prophecies written and specifically in which countries? Where is Lakewood or even Florida supposedly mentioned? I'd be interested in seeing these claims, though if they want to try and use them to extrapolate into Bible prophecy, that'll tell me the don't have any evidence or these supposed prophecies about the revival don't exist.

[six7s]

They have medical reports by specialists in the NHS.




I'll happily admit I may be stupid,but I am not a liar or delusional. Do you want to speak to the person?

If someone is very stupid... how do they know they're not lying? :confused:

Anyhoo... in answer to your question:

Yes please!

And, I'd like the contact details of the "specialists in the NHS"

[ned flandas]

If someone is very stupid... how do they know they're not lying? :confused:

That's a great question

[Meadmaker]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism

Is it conceivable that they were misdiagnosed in the first place?

Autism is a trendy diagnosis these days, and lots of behavioral problems suddenly become "autism", especially at very early ages. Actual autism is pretty rare. The very fact that there were four children in one family with "varying levels of autism" suggests to me that there were 0 children in that family with autism, but with a tendency toward social disorders and/or developmental issues.

[Showmeproof]

They have medical reports by specialists in the NHS.




I'll happily admit I may be stupid,but I am not a liar or delusional. Do you want to speak to the person?

Speak to him for what? I do not have to speak to him to know that the chance of 4 children with varying levels of autism being rapidly healed is impossible. YES, IMPOSSBILE! Also, who knows if they were diagnosed correctly. Bring them to another specialist and you might get a totally different diagnosis.

[Showmeproof]

Is it conceivable that they were misdiagnosed in the first place?

Autism is a trendy diagnosis these days, and lots of behavioral problems suddenly become "autism", especially at very early ages. Actual autism is pretty rare. The very fact that there were four children in one family with "varying levels of autism" suggests to me that there were 0 children in that family with autism, but with a tendency toward social disorders and/or developmental issues.


Even if it wasn't autism and was a social disorder or developmental issue (Asperger's syndrome, childhood disintegrative disorder or Rett syndrome) the chances of any of these disorders being rapidly healed is slim-to-none. In all the literature I have read, all the professors I have talked to, and all the settings I been in, I have never heard or seen anyone being rapidy healed of a psychiatric/psychological disorder. Granted, as long as the disorder is accurately diagnosed.

[Beerina]

...which is why documentation from physicians beforehand and after are so important.

[sophia8]

Well I think you guys were right.

I replied to the person, and for my troubles, they deleted my comments. So, it totally wasn't worth it.

I guess you have to pick your battles :|

Thanks everyone for your help


McCraggeThey sound like the usual collection of "miracle healings" that get passed around on fundie email lists all the time. Naturally, every one of them comes without any documentary evidence; Real True Christians cannot lie, so their word that it happened is good enough.
Asking for evidence means that you doubt these Real True Christians who never lie, which mean that you doubt God. So of course, your satanically-inspired comments got deleted!

[Darth Rotor]

Provided link to these pressing questions.
If you'd like, you can cut and paste my responses below and see what it gets you.
1) How would my arch (normaly very high, i have high arches, healthy feet), which was totally flat on the ground, pop back up over night after being prayed for when i was told by a medicly trained physical therapist that it'd take a year or so to reabilitate that condition?
A miracle, or, a PT who wasn't particularly good at his craft.
2) How does a paralized hand (paralized from a very very young age or from stroke, i'v seen both situations) open up and become as dexerous as the other normal hand in under 3hr after 15min of praying for healing from the God of the Bible... ?
A miracle, or an initial condition that was other than you think it was.
3) How could a blind from birth person see clearly for the first time instantly from 30min of praying for healing?
A miracle, or, an initial condition that was other than attested.
4) How can a cracked in half shin bone move back in place, reatatch itself, grow back to the other part of the shin, all torn blood vessles grow back, all torn and damaged nerves grow back and muscles reatatch and grow back in under 2hrs? and how could his swelling from a volleyball size leg go down to normal with no pain, and the man jumping around praising God for healing him... how does this happen?
Faith healing via miracle, or, an initial condition not quite as attested.
5) How can it be possible for a childs deaf ears open up for the first time since birth after praying for her for 10min... she was flippin out b/c she was scared of all the noise she was now hearing that shes never heard before.
1. Someone removed the tape that had closed the ears.
2. Someone took out the earplugs.
3. A miracle.
4. An initial condition other than that attested.
6) How does someone with an obvious mental disorder be set free mentaly in just a 10min prayer session for healing? Phyco therapy takes months and months along with strong medication to help a person get over somehting like that, and most of the time the drugs just surpress the symptoms but dosn't cure the problem like God can... HOW?
An epihpany.
A miracle.
Good drugs
An initial condition other than attested.
7) How can a young man (20s...) be dead for three days, pumped full of imbalming fluids, be in the morge in a fridge and be awakened, raised from the dead b/c his amily and village was praying for God to raise him up... that is impossible with science, but "... with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26)
Beer is not embalming fluid, nor is whiskey. Are you sure you got the story straight? If not, we may have the Second Coming and the Rapture arriving forthwith.
Apart from the miracles of healing how can i know very private information about someone when i'v never met them before? (i'm not psychic, or claim to be)
You hired a snoop.
Someone telds you.
You read their mail.
You have ESP.
8) On more then one acount the Holy Spirit has dropped into my intellect/mind a specific persons face, there name and the problems that God wants to take care of and heal in them... a part of them that they have never told anyone b/c its to painfull or a situation in there past that i would not have possible known of?
Unable to decipher.
9) How can others seem to tell the future of events that have been recorded to happen in very specific ways as not to be open to any interpretation... specific names, dates, times and events... how is this possible?
How could R Buckminster Fuller seem to be a verb?
10) Also, how could more then two people not in any relation to eachother, at different times and different places all over the earth foresee (prophesy) of the same event in fine detail? For example this Florida healing revival in lakeland, as well as almost every revival that happened in history, and thats the same for the Bible. Every one of the authors were in perfect sync writing of the same gospel but many were of different cultures, times and locations but wrote about the same truths?
What are you talking about?
If you really want to answer these then answer them directly, i don't want any philosophy crap or any extra off the topic discussions... this blog isn't ment to start arguements but is to show evidence of a loving, all powerful, healing God that is alive and very active in our lives (if He's not then He wants to be). If you want to further duscuss stuff then message me please, but other then that just keep clear and direct answers in the comments please.
A bit duscussted at the vagueness of this witness, but we all have our limitations.
honest answers please... i'm truly curious of what yall think about it.
Those were my honest answers.
=========================
Feel free to provide them to this disciple, and see if you get a response other than "ignore."

DR

[slingblade]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism

I want this miracle. I'm in a great deal of pain that can't be eased. Pray for me. I will faithfully report any improvement in my condition.

[MattusMaximus]

Theologically, isn't a miracle supposed to be something which occurs outside of the bounds of natural law? With this list she's posted, at least in reference to most of the medical claims, it seems to me that the definition of "miracle" is getting awfully watered down...

Not that I believe in miracles, I'm just sayin'.

Anyway, this would be an impressive "miracle" - regrowing a lost limb.

Tell her that she should chop off her hand at the wrist and then pray to have God regrow it to its formally fully-functional state. It would be most impressive if she were to sever her head from her body. If she refuses, you could always chide her that her "faith is weak."

How much you want to bet she'll never accept this challenge? And if she did, she'd be crazy as a bedbug :rolleyes:

[MattusMaximus]

10) Also, how could more then two people not in any relation to eachother, at different times and different places all over the earth foresee (prophesy) of the same event in fine detail? For example this Florida healing revival in lakeland, as well as almost every revival that happened in history, and thats the same for the Bible. Every one of the authors were in perfect sync writing of the same gospel but many were of different cultures, times and locations but wrote about the same truths?



This one is just bogus. The only thing it shows is that this woman knows nothing of the history of the Bible and how, where, by whom it was written. This kind of claim is often made by fundamentalists who desire their comforting self-imposed ignorance over actual knowledge and history.

I would recommed to her Dr. Bart Erhman's Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Misquoting-Jesus/Bart-D-Ehrman/e/9780060859510/?itm=2)

Be warned, she'll likely just dismiss Erhman out of hand and never even look at his scholarly work on the Bible. At least, that's what happened the last time I recommended the book to a fundamentalist.

Suggest it anyway, and watch her go into "flight" mode :rolleyes:

[Jekyll]

if you want to do this with a real person instead of a blogger, you could talk to a friend of mine that saw all four of his children healed rapidly of varying levels of autism
Sounds like a straight forward case of demon possession to me, why do you think it was autism?

[Meadmaker]

Sounds like a straight forward case of demon possession to me, why do you think it was autism?:)

[Ichneumonwasp]

I've seen a few folks who were thoroughly convinced they were cured of their epilepsy. One fell into a campfire during a seizure (sustaining 40 % burns across his face and head) at a retreat after the faith healer convinced him he no longer needed medication. Another recently decided against any new treatments because she knew she was cured through prayer.

Strangely, the seizures continue.

I've been thinking lately about a new sitcom. I think I'll call it "My Wacky Lord" about a flighty deity who cures people and then reneges on the deal just to see what will happen. Hilarity ensues. I guess they'll need some sort of tag line -- like when the cancer recurs, Bobby Sue can say "Oh, you Lord" or something like that. Then everybody laughs jovially, roll credits.

I think it will be a real feel-good hit.

[Whack01]

Well I hesitate to call myself a fundamentalist, but I do think alot of the doctrine I ascribe to is fundamentalist in nature. (I hold the authority of scripture above my reason, if there is a clear contradiction I side with scripture). Also do note this person is not a fundamentalist, he/she is a charismatic. That disclaimer aside,



1. As has been suggested this is more likely a simple case of misdiagnoses. It could also simply be miscommunication

2. Evidence of a stroke is needed here. A stroke at a young age is not a common occurrence. If the problem was not caused by a stroke, it could well still exist and return in a more damaging form if it is not properly diagnosed. I would urge this individual to see a doctor about getting a referral to a neurologist.

3. Citations needed, testimony from doctors & the person involved is needed.
However, this is a stronger case than the prior ones. However, the ethereal nature of the other claims made here make this one far more doubtful.

4. ? veering away from a secular logical perspective I'd take a theological one on this. Where exactly in the bible does it take God more than an instant to heal a severed limb? Even a dead man? If an individual came into a sermon with an injury like this and then jumped around I would examine him afterwards to verify that it was gone. If it was not gone he could have been drugged and the 2 hours were necessary for the medication to take effect. Though one should have already taken the drugs prior to the service the dosage may have needed adjusting.


5. So tell me again how did you know this child was deaf? Haily Joel Osment had a similar sensory problem, though his is likely better documented.

6. Two points on this one, first the obvious people fake mental disorders (duh). However, I don't want to call a disturbed individual a lair unless I have to. So let me ask exactly what kind of objective mental evaluation is possible in 10 minutes?

7. I agree this is possible with God, unfortunately it appears impossible with documentation these days.

8. I don't really see the point of rebutting this, though it is possible why bother? If I encountered somebody saying some such thing to me I'd just ask them to pray for me and leave it at that.

9. For the most part ;) they don't. I've yet to hear a single modern prophecy* come true unless it was based on human logic (and even those tend to go wrong often). However, for a non-anecdotal rebuttal I would recommend any of the numerous literature on cold readings etc. Since no specific situation is given by the author a specific rebuttal is not possible.

10. So what parallel are you saying is connected with the Florida healing revival? I'll affirm the scriptures as being prophetic. However, Microsoft was clearly inspired by something since it released the zune about the same time as the ipod.


eta: Though the church I grew up in does not believe in modern miracles, I do not make any such disclaimer. I see no reason in scripture given for the cessation of miracles. However I do not believe that any new scripture is to be produced until the last two prophets. I add this because I don't wish to misrepresent myself.

*modern prophecy meaning a prophecy said outside of the cannon of scriptures (council of Carthage 397AD)

[Jimbo07]

I've seen a few folks who were thoroughly convinced they were cured of their epilepsy. One fell into a campfire during a seizure (sustaining 40 % burns across his face and head) at a retreat after the faith healer convinced him he no longer needed medication. Another recently decided against any new treatments because she knew she was cured through prayer.

"Cured" until the next recurrence...

:mad:

[Civilized Worm]

I prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and he cured me of my entitilitis.

[godless dave]

(I hold the authority of scripture above my reason, if there is a clear contradiction I side with scripture).

Yikes.

[skeptical]

An extraordinary claim unaccompanied by evidence carries its own refutation.

[Ichneumonwasp]

(I hold the authority of scripture above my reason, if there is a clear contradiction I side with scripture).

How do you know there is a contradiction except by means of your reason? In fact, how do you know what scripture says except by means of your reason?

[six7s]

How do you know there is a contradiction except by means of your reason? In fact, how do you know what scripture says except by means of your reason?

Ooh, ooh! I know this one :)

FAITH

Remember???

I nominate KingMerv00 for the following post:Faith is the celebration of one's own credulity.

With faith you get to know both how and that you can do anything... move mountains, avoid eternal damnation, persecute minorities, heal the sick, invade Iraq, win eternal salvation, etc, etc...

And not necessarily in that order, either :)

Praise the lard!

[MattusMaximus]

(I hold the authority of scripture above my reason, if there is a clear contradiction I side with scripture)


I wonder what St. Augustine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Augustine#Natural_knowledge_and_biblical_int erpretation) would say about this? :rolleyes:

In part, he admonishes Christians who place their interpretation of the Bible over science & reason when he says:

It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are.

Whack01, I think you need to go back and study up on your Christian theology a wee bit. You are indeed making yourself look the fool, and that makes you a lousy advocate for your faith/religion.

[Beerina]

Sounds like a straight forward case of demon possession to me, why do you think it was autism?

For the win!

Nominated.

[ponderingturtle]

She expects anyone to believe this?

ETA: Here's a clue: If she really did have miracles happen to her, why doesn't she run down to her doctor/hospital and tell them about it? If I had a paralyzed hand and woke up one morning and could move it, I'd run down to my doctor first thing in the morning. It'd make national headlines - "After all attempts at treatments failed, paralyzed hand miracolously heals overnight after prayers".

But no, she writes about her experiences in e-mails. Jesus Christ.

the only time I have ever woke up with a paralized hand was from sleeping on it wrong, and waiting for the circulation to restore and get it working.

[Whack01]

I wonder what St. Augustine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Augustine#Natural_knowledge_and_biblical_int erpretation) would say about this? :rolleyes:

In part, he admonishes Christians who place their interpretation of the Bible over science & reason when he says:



Whack01, I think you need to go back and study up on your Christian theology a wee bit. You are indeed making yourself look the fool, and that makes you a lousy advocate for your faith/religion.

The scripture is quite plain, "lean not on your own understanding but trust in the lord with all your heart". As an example see numbers chapter 13-14. The scouts saw the cities which the Lord had commanded the people to take and counseled the people not to go into the land because they were well fortified. The people rebelled and not only did not enter into the promised land but were forced to wander for forty years in the desert until all present over the age of 20 had died.

To say that I use neither logic nor reason is a falsehood. I said I do not hold my logic nor my reason above the authority of scripture which I hold to be the word of God. However my reason is limited to my perception, but gods reason is not limited by the same factor. Consider what God asks Job in chapter 38, Did Job not have reason to question God? What did God have to say about this?

Furthermore, The reason I said "clear contradiction" is because many things are ambiguous in scripture which have to be interpreted. However, one cannot have a different interpretation of "Christ rose from the dead" and regardless of the fact that that should strike one instantly as contradicting what seems reasonable unless one trusts in God through faith which brings one back to the start.

As for St Augustine, I do not hold men outside of the cannon of scripture to be equal to scripture and I doubt you hold them to be infallible. Unless you can show me in scripture that I am to depend upon my own understanding when it is in contradiction to the word of God, I cannot accept your viewpoint. I do approve of reason, I have a bachelor of science in computer science with a minor in math, and I minored in physics specifically because I wanted to understand the secular arguments concerning carbon dating/light.

[six7s]

To say that I use neither logic nor reason is a falsehood. <snip/> Consider what God asks Job in chapter 38, Did Job not have reason to question God? What did God have to say about this?

Hmmm... that's a toughie...

I guess the answer depends on the perspective of the answerer...

If you use logic and reason, I have a hunch the only answer would be "Zip, Nada, Null, Nothing", given that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that your god has ever actually existed anywhere else than the imaginations of gullible people

If, however, you are happy to dispense with logic and reason, opting instead for 'blind faith', then I guess the answer could be "anything you damn well like", simply because the novel you call an authoritative text has more twists and turns than a barrel-full of snakes

[Whack01]

Hmmm... that's a toughie...

I guess the answer depends on the perspective of the answerer...

If you use logic and reason, I have a hunch the only answer would be "Zip, Nada, Null, Nothing", given that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that your god has ever actually existed anywhere else than the imaginations of gullible people



Logic is a field of study in and of itself. You may disagree with a person, they may in fact be entirely incorrect and their argument based on rubbish, but reason can still form logical structures within their arguments. Science is a subset of logic that deals with verifiable facts. Not all that is logical is scientific.

[Cactus Wren]

Strangely, the seizures continue.

Don't they usually?

Healing was later to become the chief feature of many evangelists, but in 1910 it was advertised chiefly by Christian Scientists and the New Thoughters. Sharon came to it by accident. She had regularly offered prayers for the sick, but only absent-mindedly. When Elmer and she had been together for a year, during her meetings in Schenectady a man led up his deaf wife and begged Sharon to heal her. It amused Sharon to send out for some oil (it happened to be shotgun oil, but she properly consecrated it) to anoint the woman's ears, and to pray lustily for healing.

The woman screamed, "Glory to God, I've got my hearing back!"

There was a sensation in the tabernacle, and everybody itched with desire to be relieved of whatever ailed him. Elmer led the healed deaf woman aside and asked her name for the newspapers. It is true that she could not hear him, but he wrote out his questions, she wrote the answers, and he got an excellent story for the papers and an idea for their holy work....

[Jekyll]

To say that I use neither logic nor reason is a falsehood. I said I do not hold my logic nor my reason above the authority of scripture which I hold to be the word of God. However my reason is limited to my perception, but gods reason is not limited by the same factor.
Logical contradictions can not be eliminated by knowing more. God's perception (assuming he sees more than you) could not eliminate the contradictions you find in your interpretation of scripture but would only increase the number of them.

As soon as you find a contradiction, the only conclusion you can make is that your/your church's interpretation of the bible (the axioms if you will) is flawed, not that God could resolve this paradox for you.

[Jekyll]

For the win!

Nominated.

Thanks :D