Do You Love America?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I got this from the presidential campaign, but it has been brought up a ton of other times in a lot of different elections, so I am posting this here.

Am I supposed to love America? I mean, I think it is rather silly when politicians say it is the greatest country in the world. By what metric? Our education system is outperformed by countries that have the population of some of our States, our healthcare system is crazily inefficient compared to other industrialized nations, our system of government is less democratic, we have the largest prison population in the world, we have more children living in poverty by a substantial margin than other industrialized nations, etc.

The only metric I've found where America is easily winning is military spending, but I'm a pacifist so I consider that to be losing :p .

Now, of course I realize that politicians are merely engaging in fluffy, feel good hyperbole, but it is just a pet peeve of mine.

But I don't understand how you are expected to love your country. It really just doesn't make any sense to me; it is like dividing by zero.

Patriotism also seems largely irrational to me. Of course, I am not going to say "Canada is really the best country." Countries vary in their institutions and their metrics, and our values determine which institutional systems we prefer and which metrics we hold to be important. However, I have yet to find the perfectly rational governmental system, so it is always a matter of personal interpretation, even when looking at the metrics.

And of course, there is the obvious fact that if the average American grew up in a different country, they would love that country.

I am not quite sure why it would be a bad thing that a person did not love America, or was not proud of it (Of course, pride is another matter entirely, but I disagree with it in general).

And then there is the whole "sharing American values", that both sides use, which I just completely don't get.

Of course, this isn't meant to bash America, I would be willing to bet that this same stuff goes on in Canada and everywhere else. This is just from my POV.

Basically, my point is this: I will never be able to win so much as a city council position. And all of you are now associated with me, so neither will you.

(And for the record, Norway, the Netherlands, and New Zealand are the best countries :p )

[brodski]

"Do You Love America?"
No, I only told it I did to get it into bed.

[latent aaaack]

The only problem is that "I sentimentally appreciate my country" doesn't have the same ring as "I'm proud" or "I love" my country and there isn't a small English word that means "sentimentally appreciate."

[ronpaulisright]

I got this from the presidential campaign, but it has been brought up a ton of other times in a lot of different elections, so I am posting this here.

Am I supposed to love America? I mean, I think it is rather silly when politicians say it is the greatest country in the world. By what metric? Our education system is outperformed by countries that have the population of some of our States, our healthcare system is crazily inefficient compared to other industrialized nations, our system of government is less democratic, we have the largest prison population in the world, we have more children living in poverty by a substantial margin than other industrialized nations, etc.

The only metric I've found where America is easily winning is military spending, but I'm a pacifist so I consider that to be losing :p .

Now, of course I realize that politicians are merely engaging in fluffy, feel good hyperbole, but it is just a pet peeve of mine.

But I don't understand how you are expected to love your country. It really just doesn't make any sense to me; it is like dividing by zero.

Patriotism also seems largely irrational to me. Of course, I am not going to say "Canada is really the best country." Countries vary in their institutions and their metrics, and our values determine which institutional systems we prefer and which metrics we hold to be important. However, I have yet to find the perfectly rational governmental system, so it is always a matter of personal interpretation, even when looking at the metrics.

And of course, there is the obvious fact that if the average American grew up in a different country, they would love that country.

I am not quite sure why it would be a bad thing that a person did not love America, or was not proud of it (Of course, pride is another matter entirely, but I disagree with it in general).

And then there is the whole "sharing American values", that both sides use, which I just completely don't get.

Of course, this isn't meant to bash America, I would be willing to bet that this same stuff goes on in Canada and everywhere else. This is just from my POV.

Basically, my point is this: I will never be able to win so much as a city council position. And all of you are now associated with me, so neither will you.

(And for the record, Norway, the Netherlands, and New Zealand are the best countries :p )

Ideally, america WAS supposed to be the greatest country in the world but it was hijacked by european bankers MANY MANY years ago.

on a side note, I read somewhere that in norway, if you work a second job, it's tax free! :)

I'll tell you what though. There is no country quite like america. America is something else.

If we gave more power to the states, we could have a pretty awesome country!

[mrbaracuda]

CuwMv89gQy4

Yes.

[mrbaracuda]

But! This one's also pretty decent.

WP9MYVDdlnI

:)

[Darth Rotor]

TB:

Love is an act of sacrifice. Are you willing to make a personal sacrifice for your country, (or at the usual scale, town, county, province) to make it a better place, or to preserve it? (Not necessarily giving or risking your life, that is one of many forms of self sacrifice.)

If so, then by your actions you can demonstrate that you love your country. Merely proclaiming it at the top of your voice hardly makes it so.
The only metric I've found where America is easily winning is military spending, but I'm a pacifist so I consider that to be losing .
Then you live at the suffrance of others. Do you consider that being a winner? I suggest you do a bit more research, and I'll also suggest that you can love a country without it being number one. See Frenchmen who love their country, even though it isn't number one. I have no doubt of their sincerity. You seem confused about the dynamic involved.
Now, of course I realize that politicians are merely engaging in fluffy, feel good hyperbole, but it is just a pet peeve of mine.
Get over it, you have a long life ahead of you. It's part of the background noise. If you let it anger you, they win. You gonna let the pols kick your butt?
But I don't understand how you are expected to love your country. It really just doesn't make any sense to me; it is like dividing by zero
You appear to take the "what's in it for me" approach. Not sure why you assume an expectation of love. Why do you do that? Why do you make that assumption?

Do you love America?
Yes.

DR

[Wildy]

Not really.

I don't really respect America either.

[JoeEllison]

I think the whole "love your country" thing is a little bit silly... but I'm not built for the sort of "emotional response to large groups that I have little or no control over" to pull it off. I have all sorts of thoughts and I guess feelings about America, but I don't think that "love" is one of them.

[Ladewig]

For a long time, America was one of the world leaders in social and class mobility. I think that added to its greatness. Some people point to the number of legal and illegal immigrants who risk their lives to come here as an objective measure of greatness.

. . . . . . .

Al Franken has observed that some patriots love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy while other patriots love America as grown-ups love their spouses. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow."

In any case, whenever I hear people loudly proclaim how much they love this country, I always wonder what percentage of them cheat on their taxes.

Lastly, I want to point out that it is possible to love this country and to believe that burning the flag should be legal.

[christie malry]

Which one?

Just kidding, I know which one you mean!

No, not really. It's just a place. I've met some nice Americans, and I can think of a few great people/things that have come from there. Joe Hill, Mad Men, that sort of thing.

[Gurdur]

Ideally, america WAS supposed to be the greatest country in the world but it was hijacked by european bankers MANY MANY years ago.


Goodness. How come the wussies over there let that happen?

on a side note, I read somewhere that in norway, if you work a second job, it's tax free! :)


You mean Norway is better? Just wait till C.F. Larsen sets you straight. It's Denmark, Denmark, Denmark all the way there.

There is no country quite like america. America is something else.


Why? Because of all that wussiedom letting "european bankers" take things over just like that? You need to compare notes with FreeRomanian, maybe you can make a country fit for Serbs and Romanians (only the truly Orthodox * ones, of course, that goes without saying, only the True Proper Orthodox Church ones with no suspicious blood, of course, of course).
:p

If we gave more power to the states, we could have a pretty awesome country!


Why? Jackson, Longstreet and Lee have been in their graves a long, long time, and schools were desegregated throughout the States a long time ago. Let the dead rest in peace.
_________________

* Orthodoxy is my doxy, heterodoxy is another man's doxy.
:p

[Pauliesonne]

I feel the same way with the UK.

[Chaos]

Al Franken has observed that some patriots love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy while other patriots love America as grown-ups love their spouses. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow."


More power to him, then.

Pity that pretty much all discussion about patriotism, or about what America is or ought to be, has been hijacked by the four-year-olds.

[dudalb]

Yes, I love the USA,the way that Franken describes.
But if you have no shred of love for your country, then do everybody a favor and don't participate in it's politics.

[Brainster]

Too many people (liberals especially) mistake love of country with support for the government. If you were to ask those same people whether they love planet Earth, they would not hesitate to say yes.

[Finnegan]

Ideally, america WAS supposed to be the greatest country in the world but it was hijacked by european bankers MANY MANY years ago.

Look, we don't run your country!

Many of us are scared of it.

[Darth Rotor]

Look, we don't run your country!

Many of us are scared of it.
Why?

DR

[Finnegan]

Why?

DR

Because many Europeans imagine that 'America' consists of a sinister cabal of Texan ranchers who sit around drinking oil and the blood of slaves. It's essentially so that they can forget that we (well, our country) went into Iraq as well.

[JoeEllison]

Too many people (liberals especially) mistake love of country with support for the government. If you were to ask those same people whether they love planet Earth, they would not hesitate to say yes.

???

[godless dave]

Al Franken has observed that some patriots love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy while other patriots love America as grown-ups love their spouses. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow."

Nicely put.

[UserGoogol]

Too many people (liberals especially) mistake love of country with support for the government. If you were to ask those same people whether they love planet Earth, they would not hesitate to say yes.

That is because a country is defined by a government. People are people where ever you go, "countries" are defined merely because there are governments with jurisdictions that cover a (more or less) fixed area of land. Without the government, we'd just be southern Canada.

ETA:Well, there's also various sociocultural concepts of country-dom, but in a pluralistic and global society those are of somewhat limited applicability since a country can have many cultures and those cultures can extend beyond national borders so it's hard to pin down something and say it's "America."

[Yalius]

The only problem is that "I sentimentally appreciate my country" doesn't have the same ring as "I'm proud" or "I love" my country and there isn't a small English word that means "sentimentally appreciate."

"Fond of"?

[Chaos]

Yes, I love the USA,the way that Franken describes.
But if you have no shred of love for your country, then do everybody a favor and don't participate in it's politics.

It´s not my country. And I will stop commenting on the US when you Americans stop commenting on the rest of the world.

[Cello Man]

Another person chiming in to say that yes, I do love America, as defined by Al Franken. I accept there are good things about my country, and other things I would like to change. I think the notion of "love it or leave it" is asinine. My motto is, "I will use my right to free speech to criticize my country, because I love it".

Good stuff about America:
Pioneered representative democracy
Separation of church and state
Free speech
We invented powered flight
We put men on the Moon
Humanitarian work around the world
Helped to defeat Hitler, along with the other allies (The Soviet Union sacrificed the most in terms of human life)

Bad stuff about America:
Suspension of habeas corpus, imprisonment without charges (ala Gitmo)
Use of torture
Internment of Japanese civilians during WWII
Unnecessary war in Iraq
Nuclear proliferation: "Do as we say, not as we do"

As for the whole "number one" thing...4mCDZMWVWuc
(Audio isn't work safe unless you have headphones) He starts ranting about milk halfway through, but the first half is relevant to this discussion.

[dudalb]

It´s not my country. And I will stop commenting on the US when you Americans stop commenting on the rest of the world.

Not aimed at you.
And I meant that as a general pricipal.
No matter what country you live in, if you don't have some feeling of love for that country, I really question if you have the best interest of that country at heart when you participate in politics.

[Corsair 115]

Ideally, america WAS supposed to be the greatest country in the world but it was hijacked by european bankers MANY MANY years ago.Really? Care to explain why in a new thread?

As an aside, I'll note that, according to the web site Euromoney (http://www.euromoney.com/Article/1079885/Title.html), the top three banks in the world in 2006 were all American: Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase, and Bank of America.

[Mister Earl]

I'd say I love my country, even if I don't love ALL of it.
"My country, may she always be right; But she's my country, right or wrong."
I love my country enough to die defending it, just so one other person doesn't have to.

[dudalb]

Really? Care to explain why in a new thread?

As an aside, I'll note that, according to the web site Euromoney (http://www.euromoney.com/Article/1079885/Title.html), the top three banks in the world in 2006 were all American: Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase, and Bank of America.

I think I know where ronpaulisright is going, and the names "Rothschild" and "international Jewish bankers" will pop up.

[Cello Man]

I think I know where ronpaulisright is going, and the names "Rothschild" and "international Jewish bankers" will pop up.

This seems like the right time to post this gem: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3629675&postcount=13

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Really? Care to explain why in a new thread?

As an aside, I'll note that, according to the web site Euromoney (http://www.euromoney.com/Article/1079885/Title.html), the top three banks in the world in 2006 were all American: Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase, and Bank of America.


:D OBVIOUSLY, "Jewish Person Morgan!" :D

....

NOT!!

Oh - and - How about, "devoted?"

I'm devoted to my country.

....



On the subject of that whole other-words-ey stuff, have you guys heard about the Thinkmap Visual Thesaurus (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/)?

It gives you some pretty good insight into the words, and how close their synonyms are, linguistically, by mapping them visually.

LIVE:

http://home.comcast.net/~alsohlstrom/VT_Live_2D.gif

You may notice that things can get crowded, so I normally use it in Free Association mode:

http://home.comcast.net/~alsohlstrom/VT_Live_3D.gif

That lets you move the object, displayed in 3-D, around with your cursor to get a better feel of the thing. Closer objects are larger and darker. :D

[Corsair 115]

Of course, this isn't meant to bash America, I would be willing to bet that this same stuff goes on in Canada and everywhere else.From my experience, no, Canadian federal election campaigns don't involve lots of candidates proclaiming their love of the nation. Nor do they involve candidates having to proclaim their religious affiliation and love for Jesus/The Bible/what have you.

The focus in federal election campaigns here is typically the opposition parties saying what a lousy job the previous government has done and how they can do better. The goverment's party says they've done a good job and the opposition parties would be a poor choice to form the next government.

Patriotism and religiosity are usually absent from Canadian federal election campaigns.

[Ladewig]

I'd say I love my country, even if I don't love ALL of it.
"My country, may she always be right; But she's my country, right or wrong."
I love my country enough to die defending it, just so one other person doesn't have to.

I, too, am willing to die in the defense of this country and its freedoms. After thinking carefully, I realized that the number of things I'm willing to kill for is smaller than the number of things I am willing to die for. The defense of the U.S. is on both lists.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Yes. Yes, I do.

I see what you are saying with all your points and, intellectually, I would agree with you. I think I might even generally agree with you rationally.

I really have no rational explanation but I do love America. Not just as my home, the way you love your hometown or any other physical place you are emotionally attached to as a place.

I love American values. I love the idea of America. I love it as my country, apart from as my home.

As for politics, loving your country isn't the same as wanting to think it's perfect and always "good" or "great", no matter what it does. I never had trouble drawing that the distinction; it always went without saying to me that freedom to dissent is an American value and it's highly un-American to deny someone that or to decry it with demagogy.

As someone (it might have been Mark Twain) put it, patriotism is always supporting your country and supporting your government when it deserves it.

What Al Franken said doesn't quite ring true to me- I wouldn't compare love of a country to love of a person- but I know what he means. To a true patriot, there is nothing sadder than a country not living up to its own values.

[Texas]

Another person chiming in to say that yes, I do love America, as defined by Al Franken. I accept there are good things about my country, and other things I would like to change. I think the notion of "love it or leave it" is asinine. My motto is, "I will use my right to free speech to criticize my country, because I love it".

Good stuff about America:
Pioneered representative democracy
Separation of church and state
Free speech
We invented powered flight
We put men on the Moon
Humanitarian work around the world
Helped to defeat Hitler, along with the other allies (The Soviet Union sacrificed the most in terms of human life)

Bad stuff about America:
Suspension of habeas corpus, imprisonment without charges (ala Gitmo)
Use of torture
Internment of Japanese civilians during WWII
Unnecessary war in Iraq
Nuclear proliferation: "Do as we say, not as we do"

As for the whole "number one" thing...4mCDZMWVWuc
(Audio isn't work safe unless you have headphones) He starts ranting about milk halfway through, but the first half is relevant to this discussion.


Except for the non-aggression pact Uncle Joe had with Adolf. I noticed you didn't mention Kosovo on either list yet that was really an unnecessary war of aggression.

[Texas]

Ideally, america WAS supposed to be the greatest country in the world but it was hijacked by european bankers MANY MANY years ago.

on a side note, I read somewhere that in norway, if you work a second job, it's tax free! :)

I'll tell you what though. There is no country quite like america. America is something else.

If we gave more power to the states, we could have a pretty awesome country!

I'll bet you have stacks of the "New American" 6 feet high in your room.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Another person chiming in to say that yes, I do love America, as defined by Al Franken. I accept there are good things about my country, and other things I would like to change. I think the notion of "love it or leave it" is asinine. My motto is, "I will use my right to free speech to criticize my country, because I love it".

Good stuff about America:
Pioneered representative democracy
Separation of church and state
Free speech
We invented powered flight
We put men on the Moon
Humanitarian work around the world
Helped to defeat Hitler, along with the other allies (The Soviet Union sacrificed the most in terms of human life)

Bad stuff about America:
Suspension of habeas corpus, imprisonment without charges (ala Gitmo)
Use of torture
Internment of Japanese civilians during WWII
Unnecessary war in Iraq
Nuclear proliferation: "Do as we say, not as we do"

...

You have to take the good with the bad and acknowledge, take responsibility for and own up to past mistakes (and current ones). Both as an American and as a person. Acknowledging the bad isn't lack of love, it's willful blindness. And it's both often immoral and intellectually wrong and unfair.

If I can be candid about one thing, though, I don't like any of the foreign countries I've been to more than the United States. I might agree that their education, health care, etc. are superior or admire their culture or some of their values or enjoy visiting but I really wouldn't live in any of them. I don't even prefer my parents' home country to the United States.

So I guess I'm about the only person in America not threatening to move to Canada. Nope, I'm staying right here :)

[Whack01]

Patriotism is not the love of your country, it's the love of your countrymen. You do not love America if you do not love Americans.

It's sad to see that everybody seems to get this wrong, at times I do as well.

[H3LL]

The only metric I've found where America is easily winning is military spending, but I'm a pacifist so I consider that to be losing :p .

A bit like the guy at the golf club that has the most modern, complete and expensive set of equipment but is a terrible golfer and doesn't know it. ;)

Outside of their own borders, in my experience, many US Americans present a breath-taking arrogance and condescension that is unmatched by any other nationality I have met.

That said, I think you will find the metric you are looking for in these three documents (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/).

They are an unparallelled international treasure of immeasurable value that US Americans should be rightly proud of and should love.

Your pledge of allegiance should be to these documents and not to a pretty rag.

It puzzles me that attempts to abuse them are sometimes met with indifference.

The Romans, allegedly, would drag certain criminals through the streets by a hook in the throat and throw them into the Tiber. The Potomac could find a new use or, at the very least, you could find a useful task for the "armed militia", to deal with those US Americans that are willing and able to disregard those documents.

.

[Cylinder]

Do I love America?

Yes. Among others things, America has given me:

Oppurtunity - what I like to call an "honest man's chance." Hard work, good planning and basic honesty are rewarded. It's not a perfect system - but it's a fair one. Individual milage may vary.

Relative safety - I have a chance to raise children in an environment that has basic governmental protections against things like violence and barbaric customs. Actually, there is the male circumcision thing. Luckily, I had a last-minute reprieve thanks to an irregular heartbeat. Many do not.

Abundance - there's plenty of food, water and shelter. Some days its lobster and beer. Some days it canned meat and crackers.

Education - the government provides free access to basic education and an opportunity to access higher education.

Freedom - I can relocate , associate and advocate fairly freely from governmental intrusion. This doesn't mean that the government won't look for my sack on the side of the road at 2:30 in the morning.

In exchange, America asks me to pay taxes, respect the rule of law and participate in governing.

If you are not a USAian, stick with me for a just second. There is a custom when a new American Marine recruit is issued his or her personal weapon to recite a thing called The Rifleman's Creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman's_Creed) which was made popular in the movie Full Metal Jacket. The first lines are:

This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine.

My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master my life. My rifle, without me is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless.

This is my country. There are many like it but this one is mine.

[Chaos]

Not aimed at you.
And I meant that as a general pricipal.
No matter what country you live in, if you don't have some feeling of love for that country, I really question if you have the best interest of that country at heart when you participate in politics.

I care about people (minus the politicians) as individuals. If the best interests of the country happen to coincide with those of the people who like there, okay. Otherwise, the country can go to hell.

[ronpaulisright]

Well, I don't love americans so I must not love america, as a matter of fact, I HATE americans (not all americans) so I must HATE america. Doesn't make much sense huh? anyway americais not the same america that it once was many years ago and that is a shame. The damn banksters ruined everything (I would make a thread about it but I don't have enough concrete evidence to my liking.) . So, america is pretty sad and a miserable, overpriced, fat, lazy, tax crazy, war hungry, american idol watching, pieces of ****. With that being said I can probably tolerate nevada, but other than that, if I had enough money, I would live somewhere else. **** america. A very hypocritical place to live. Most americans don't respect the constitution but I do. Most of them don't know there rights so why should they have them?

[mrbaracuda]

This is my country. There are many like it but this one is mine.

:o

[Ladewig]

Most of them don't know their rights so why should they have them?


I can happily answer that one. Nowhere in the Constitution is there a requirement that citizens must know their rights in order to benefit from them. I would have thought that this idea is rather obvious given that police are required to inform people accused of a crime that they have certain inalienable rights (a fact apparent to anyone who has watched any television police show in the past 30-odd years).

Surely you would be repulsed at the idea that the government could close churches whose members were not aware of all the items in the first amendment.

Even Ron Paul, himself, believes that all Americans should enjoy the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

[Ladewig]

Patriotism is not the love of your country, it's the love of your countrymen. You do not love America if you do not love Americans.

It's sad to see that everybody seems to get this wrong, at times I do as well.

No, I think you have it (mostly) wrong. I had to go through several online dictionaries before I found the definition you cited. The primary definition in every dictionary I looked at was a love of country.

I most certainly do love the freedoms found in the U.S. and I most certainly do not love the American people. Loving a group of people in which...

* 25% said “the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees,”

* 56% believe that the freedom to worship as one chooses extends to all religious groups, regardless of how extreme

* 55% believe that the Constitution establishes a Christian nation,

* 50% would allow schools to teach the Bible as a factual text in a history class.

...takes a bigger heart than I have.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
citation (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=19031)

[Gurdur]

Tiddley om pom pom, time for me to defend America.

Well, I don't love americans so I must not love america, as a matter of fact, I HATE americans


But do they care? Does anyone care who you hate?

The damn banksters ruined everything (I would make a thread about it but I don't have enough concrete evidence to my liking.)


Those damned "european bankers" sure have stuffed you and Ron Paul up by making evidence, skepticism, logic and rationality so useful and widespread. Never mind, I'm sure you and Ron Paul will just make things up as you go along.


I can probably tolerate nevada,


But can Nevada tolerate you? Dubious.


Most americans don't respect the constitution but I do. Most of them don't know there rights so why should they have them?


Bring in fascism now? Do you have more juvenile, empty clichés to throw at us?

___________

Note the use of an "é", an acute accent. This probably means I am a "european banker" (ha ha ha, I wish) or a 12-foot-tall shape-changing lizard.

[coalesce]

Well, I don't love americans so I must not love america, as a matter of fact, I HATE americans (not all americans) so I must HATE america. Doesn't make much sense huh? anyway americais not the same america that it once was many years ago and that is a shame. The damn banksters ruined everything (I would make a thread about it but I don't have enough concrete evidence to my liking.) . So, america is pretty sad and a miserable, overpriced, fat, lazy, tax crazy, war hungry, american idol watching, pieces of ****. With that being said I can probably tolerate nevada, but other than that, if I had enough money, I would live somewhere else. **** america. A very hypocritical place to live. Most americans don't respect the constitution but I do. Most of them don't know there rights so why should they have them?

Besides Nevada, where else, and why?

And at what point did the "banksters" ruin everything? Who allowed it to happen?

Michael

[Cello Man]

Except for the non-aggression pact Uncle Joe had with Adolf. I noticed you didn't mention Kosovo on either list yet that was really an unnecessary war of aggression.

I'm not as knowledgeable about Kosovo as I'd like to be, so I really can't comment on it one way or another. In any case, my goal was to list a few examples of good and bad things about the USA, not a fully comprehensive list worthy of Wikipedia.

You have to take the good with the bad and acknowledge, take responsibility for and own up to past mistakes (and current ones). Both as an American and as a person. Acknowledging the bad isn't lack of love, it's willful blindness. And it's both often immoral and intellectually wrong and unfair.

Precisely my sentiments. Thanks for summing it up more eloquently.

Well, I don't love americans so I must not love america, as a matter of fact, I HATE americans (not all americans) so I must HATE america. Doesn't make much sense huh? anyway americais not the same america that it once was many years ago and that is a shame. The damn banksters ruined everything (I would make a thread about it but I don't have enough concrete evidence to my liking.) . So, america is pretty sad and a miserable, overpriced, fat, lazy, tax crazy, war hungry, american idol watching, pieces of ****. With that being said I can probably tolerate nevada, but other than that, if I had enough money, I would live somewhere else. **** america. A very hypocritical place to live. Most americans don't respect the constitution but I do. Most of them don't know there rights so why should they have them?

Of course America isn't the way it was. That's a natural consequence of linear time. The important thing is not to look towards the past with rose tinted glasses, as if "the good old days" can never be equaled. Word to the wise: There never were any good old days, it's just the past.

As for all the Americans you perceive as inferior...The price of living in a free society means listening to points of view that you despise. The beauty of the Constitution is that it allows for this country's citizens be free and not be required to know or even respect the Constitution which grants them their rights. Whether you agree with that or not, that's freedom. Deal with it, because it's the country you live in.

[Whack01]

No, I think you have it (mostly) wrong. I had to go through several online dictionaries before I found the definition you cited. The primary definition in every dictionary I looked at was a love of country.

I most certainly do love the freedoms found in the U.S. and I most certainly do not love the American people. Loving a group of people in which...



...takes a bigger heart than I have.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
citation (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=19031)


I did not look up patriotism in a dictionary I thought about what it meant to me. It's the definition I want to live by even if I fail often, loving people can be very challenging.

I do not respect the soldiers who rolled onto grenades because they did it for a chunk of dirt. I don't respect men like Sgt York because they killed over a painted piece of cloth, I respect them because they did it for their countrymen. To save our lives, our freedoms and to protect us from the numerous other cruelties of men.

On a darker note, I am persuaded if a man doesn't love his countrymen then once his countrymen have wronged him to a sufficient he may well rebel and commit treason against them. Think about this for a bit, could your countrymen wrong you in any way at all in the wild realm of your imagination that would cause you to commit treason? I apply this logic to say that domestic terrorists and those who demagogue groups of people are not patriots though they will both profess to love their country. They do not love their countrymen, they hate and kill them instead, though the dirt is unharmed. I doubt anyone here would call men like Tim McViegh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh) patriots, although I'm sure he loved his home.

[ronpaulisright]

I'm not as knowledgeable about Kosovo as I'd like to be, so I really can't comment on it one way or another. In any case, my goal was to list a few examples of good and bad things about the USA, not a fully comprehensive list worthy of Wikipedia.



Precisely my sentiments. Thanks for summing it up more eloquently.



Of course America isn't the way it was. That's a natural consequence of linear time. The important thing is not to look towards the past with rose tinted glasses, as if "the good old days" can never be equaled. Word to the wise: There never were any good old days, it's just the past.

As for all the Americans you perceive as inferior...The price of living in a free society means listening to points of view that you despise. The beauty of the Constitution is that it allows for this country's citizens be free and not be required to know or even respect the Constitution which grants them their rights. Whether you agree with that or not, that's freedom. Deal with it, because it's the country you live in.

Yeah but when you have a group of people that elected in a president that says the contituiton is just a god damn piece of paper it makes me question the spine of the american people that refuse to impeach him and his vice president. It also calls into question the awareness of the american people who will elect in a president whose grandfather helped nazis, were skull and bones men, and throw out habeas corpus!

[Ladewig]

I did not look up patriotism in a dictionary I thought about what it meant to me. It's the definition I want to live by even if I fail often, loving people can be very challenging.

I do not respect the soldiers who rolled onto grenades because they did it for a chunk of dirt. I don't respect men like Sgt York because they killed over a painted piece of cloth, I respect them because they did it for their countrymen. To save our lives, our freedoms and to protect us from the numerous other cruelties of men.

And I respect them because they did it to save our freedoms and to protect us from the other cruelties of men. You gave three reasons and I gave two; I am not convinced that makes you a better patriot than me.

On a darker note, I am persuaded if a man doesn't love his countrymen then once his countrymen have wronged him to a sufficient he may well rebel and commit treason against them. Think about this for a bit, could your countrymen wrong you in any way at all in the wild realm of your imagination that would cause you to commit treason?

This question strikes me as a complete non-sequitur. Why would I want to commit treason if I were wronged by some Americans? I can think of no reason I would want to commit treason. I can think of no act that citizens could perform to make me want to start a violent revolution or harm America in some other way.

I think it absurd to love all Americans. I most unapologetically do not. I will fight to the death for the right of the American Nazis to run for office (although I would never vote for them) but I most certainly do not love them. I will fight to the death for the right of Jack Chick to publish innane claptrap, but I most certainly do not love him. I will fight to the death for the right of Fred Phelps to protest in pubic right-of-ways but I most certainly do not love him anything about him.


No, the dictionaries indicate you have an aberrant view of patriotism and I agree with them.

[Whack01]

And I respect them because they did it to save our freedoms and to protect us from the other cruelties of men. You gave three reasons and I gave two; I am not convinced that makes you a better patriot than me.


The two reasons you stated can be derived from love (eta which is my point in citing them) so they do not contradict my position. Your definition is partial and incomplete in my view. I make no judgments about you as a person I am addressing a definition. The only reason I address others at all is to try to help them understand what I'm saying.


This question strikes me as a complete non-sequitur. Why would I want to commit treason if I were wronged by some Americans? I can think of no reason I would want to commit treason. I can think of no act that citizens could perform to make me want to start a violent revolution or harm America in some other way.


A non sequitur that it does not follow from your argument, I was addressing why I said what I originally said. I heartily apologize that this was unclear.


So allow me to ask a question which does follow from your statement. Put yourself in a evangelical fundamentalists shoes. If you believed that the right to life were being violated, would you then in your own words, "Fight to the death to defend it"? So its possible to do a proof by negation in answering this question, Are fundamentalists who fight to the death to defend the rights of the unborn patriots? (eta: Incase "proof by negation is unclear", I'm saying the correct answer is NO) The same thing could be said for Muslim extremists as well. I simply encounter more Christian extremists and understand them better than I do Muslim, hence I use them as the example.




No, the dictionaries indicate you have an aberrant view of patriotism and I agree with them.

This is an appeal to authority, I trust you never condemn Christians or Muslims for appealing to scripture in defense of what they believe?

[Ladewig]

No, the dictionaries indicate you have an aberrant view of patriotism and I agree with them.
This is an appeal to authority, I trust you never condemn Christians or Muslims for appealing to scripture in defense of what they believe?


First off, I want to apologize for using the word aberrant. I meant "very seldom used"

Second, when discussing how widely-accepted a word's meaning is, citing dictionaries is not an appeal to authority. They are documentation of how words are commonly used. If you use a definition that appears in only a fraction of online and printed dictionaries, then you are not in a strong position to say, "I have the correct definition and the definition that everyone else uses is wrong."


The two reasons you stated can be derived from love (eta which is my point in citing them) so they do not contradict my position.

Yes, those reasons can be derived from love, but my position (respect should be given to those that protect freedoms and principles and that save citizens from countries that would harm them) is not necessarily derived from love. It is possible to not love the citizens and still love the principles and the freedoms of a country. Similarly, it is possible to love the citizens and not love the principles of a country (e.g. North Korea).

Your definition is partial and incomplete in my view. I make no judgments about you as a person I am addressing a definition.

I take no offense of what you are saying.

I gave examples of several types of American citizens that I cannot stand, yet I still love America's core values (as embodied in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence) and its immeasurably valuable freedoms.



A non sequitur that it does not follow from your argument, I was addressing why I said what I originally said. I heartily apologize that this was unclear.

I have read this several times and still am unsure what you were trying to convey. May I ask you to rephrase it?


So allow me to ask a question which does follow from your statement. Put yourself in a evangelical fundamentalists shoes. If you believed that the right to life were being violated, would you then in your own words, "Fight to the death to defend it"? So its possible to do a proof by negation in answering this question, Are fundamentalists who fight to the death to defend the rights of the unborn patriots? (eta: Incase "proof by negation is unclear", I'm saying the correct answer is NO) The same thing could be said for Muslim extremists as well. I simply encounter more Christian extremists and understand them better than I do Muslim, hence I use them as the example.

As I said earlier in this thread, the list of things I am willing to die for is shorter that the list of things I am willing to kill for. When I said, "Fight to the death to defend it," I meant fight until I am dead, not necessarily fight until I kill someone.

As for imagining myself in the shoes of the fundies, I can't see how that is related to whether of not love of citizens is required for the label of patriot. I will agree that the people who murder abortion providers are unpatriotic: murdering people goes against the principles of this nation. Such a murderer might even claim that it is his love of the people that led him to commit murder.

My point is that true love of a nation's people is not necessary for a person to rightly be considered patriotic.

[Ladewig]

Yeah but when you have a group of people that elected in a president that says the contituiton is just a god damn piece of paper it makes me question the spine of the american people that refuse to impeach him and his vice president.


And when someone rants about the American people refusing to impeach a president, it makes me question his understanding of the Constitution.

It also calls into question the awareness of the american people who will elect in a president whose grandfather helped nazis,

Isn't the American thing to do to judge a person on his own record rather than the wrongs his grandfather committed?


were skull and bones men,

oh, noes!!!!!

and throw out habeas corpus!

At last something we can agree on. I do believe in judging elected officials on how well they support and protect the rights guaranteed in this country.

[Whack01]

First off, I want to apologize for using the word aberrant. I meant "very seldom used"

Second, when discussing how widely-accepted a word's meaning is, citing dictionaries is not an appeal to authority. They are documentation of how words are commonly used. If you use a definition that appears in only a fraction of online and printed dictionaries, then you are not in a strong position to say, "I have the correct definition and the definition that everyone else uses is wrong."


Yes, those reasons can be derived from love, but my position (respect should be given to those that protect freedoms and principles and that save citizens from countries that would harm them) is not necessarily derived from love. It is possible to not love the citizens and still love the principles and the freedoms of a country. Similarly, it is possible to love the citizens and not love the principles of a country (e.g. North Korea).


This seems logical and I'll have to agree that your definition works. Congrats! lol :) However, I would like to ask three questions that are not resolved, I don't really expect answers but I think they should be considered. First, Without a love of ones countrymen is it possible to arrive at the principles for which a patriot should fight?* Second, if I am to call North Koreans who uphold the principles of a corrupt regime patriots, then is patriotism a Virtue as people say? Thirdly, if there is a distinction between virtuous patriotism and immoral (or improper/illogical if you dislike the word immoral) patriotism what should distinguish the two?


I have read this several times and still am unsure what you were trying to convey. May I ask you to rephrase it?


I just tried ;) . What I was saying is from the perspective of the actions of the abortion clinic bombers, Tim McVeigh et al, their belief in their own patriotism can be seen as internally consistent if they use the definition you gave (remember this is from their perspective). Using the definition that I gave I cannot see how they could logically do so, even from their own perspectives. I was using this to establish a proof by negation. However, I made an error in my logic as I did not consider that patriotism may not be a virtue :P

I consider the distinction in patriotism as I wrote it important because at times it may appear logical to do illogical things. So my argument is of the rough logical form:

A man
Pa: Is a patriot
Pb: It appears logical to a man to harm his countrymen on account of his patriotic beliefs
{implicit conclusion}: A man harms his countrymen on account of his patriotic beliefs

not C: A man harms his countrymen on account of his patriotic beliefs AND is a patriot

(note: the correctness of the premises are in this case evaluated from the perspective of the individual(s) in question rather than their actual correctness)

It is a simple proof by negation, it's not a complicated argument. Though it assumes that patriotism is virtuous in nature.


As I said earlier in this thread, the list of things I am willing to die for is shorter that the list of things I am willing to kill for. When I said, "Fight to the death to defend it," I meant fight until I am dead, not necessarily fight until I kill someone.


I am sorry for misinterpreting you, I am used to being around people for whom the phrase "fight to the death" implies violence.




*You could simply ask if the founding fathers loved one another, but to use that as a disproof you'd have to show that they all hated each other. Regardless of the questions answer, I think it's a question worth asking for thought.

[ronpaulisright]

grounds for impeachment are treason and espionage, maybe others. Bush has done both of those things. the patriot act, failure to uphold the constitution and the alleged negligence that bush had on the 9/11 attacks. He knew what was gonna happen and he did NOTHING! the patriot act is a form of espionage, guantananmo is unconstittutional I think, and leading men to die is also treason. Because that's all I see... bush leading young stupid teenagers who don't know any better to go die. They're not fighting terrorists, they're not bringing democracy to iraq, they weren't out to get saddam, they went out there to fulfill the needs and wants of the military industrial complex and their special interests!

[Ladewig]

grounds for impeachment are treason and espionage, maybe others. Bush has done both of those things. the patriot act, failure to uphold the constitution and the alleged negligence that bush had on the 9/11 attacks. He knew what was gonna happen and he did NOTHING! the patriot act is a form of espionage, guantananmo is unconstittutional I think, and leading men to die is also treason. Because that's all I see... bush leading young stupid teenagers who don't know any better to go die. They're not fighting terrorists, they're not bringing democracy to iraq, they weren't out to get saddam, they went out there to fulfill the needs and wants of the military industrial complex and their special interests!

Wow. Just wow. I was pointing out that you do not understand the Constitution because you think the American people are spineless for not impeaching the president and your response was to list the charges relevant for impeaching the president. Apparently you have no idea at all that the Constitution does not give the American populace the power to impeach the the president. Amazing. You are constantly ranting about the Constitution and you have no idea what is in it.

[Ladewig]

Whack01, I will consider your response and post a reply in a day or two.

[RandFan]

Am I supposed to love America? No. I love it though.

I mean, I think it is rather silly when politicians say it is the greatest country in the world. By what metric? Our education system is outperformed by countries that have the population of some of our States, our healthcare system is crazily inefficient compared to other industrialized nations, our system of government is less democratic, we have the largest prison population in the world, we have more children living in poverty by a substantial margin than other industrialized nations, etc. Now you have veered into another topic. 's ok. I do the same in my threads. Superlatives are often subjective. But we aren't doing too bad if you consider HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index). We are rated 12th. Not number 1 but not too shabby either.

Patriotism also seems largely irrational to me.
Love is an emotion. Why does one love anything? It seems to me that any explanation would be at best post hoc reasoning. I don't have to justify the love of my country, I just do. I love my culture, my family, my friends, my past times, my sense of belonging.

And of course, there is the obvious fact that if the average American grew up in a different country, they would love that country. And that person would have met and loved a different spouse. I don't see your point.

[RandFan]

Another person chiming in to say that yes, I do love America, as defined by Al Franken. I accept there are good things about my country, and other things I would like to change. I think the notion of "love it or leave it" is asinine. My motto is, "I will use my right to free speech to criticize my country, because I love it".

Good stuff about America:
Pioneered representative democracy
Separation of church and state
Free speech
We invented powered flight
We put men on the Moon
Humanitarian work around the world
Helped to defeat Hitler, along with the other allies (The Soviet Union sacrificed the most in terms of human life)

Bad stuff about America:
Suspension of habeas corpus, imprisonment without charges (ala Gitmo)
Use of torture
Internment of Japanese civilians during WWII
Unnecessary war in Iraq
Nuclear proliferation: "Do as we say, not as we do"

As for the whole "number one" thing...4mCDZMWVWuc
(Audio isn't work safe unless you have headphones) He starts ranting about milk halfway through, but the first half is relevant to this discussion. Great post.

[quarky]

does Puerto Rico count as America?

(it can get confusing)

yeah Earth!
Boo Mars!

[ronpaulisright]

Wow. Just wow. I was pointing out that you do not understand the Constitution because you think the American people are spineless for not impeaching the president and your response was to list the charges relevant for impeaching the president. Apparently you have no idea at all that the Constitution does not give the American populace the power to impeach the the president. Amazing. You are constantly ranting about the Constitution and you have no idea what is in it.

In a constitutional republic, the people HAVE the power to impeach the president. The PEOPLE choose other PEOPLE that they WANT representing them! Ideally, congress consists of people who REPRESENT the PEOPLE! The people need to represent people that will do this. As I am typing this I DO see your point but still you were confused nonetheless.

also this is a relative video. bELc-kjLR_E hope it works. :)

[Ladewig]

Hey, thanks for putting some words in CAPITAL letters. It really makes the argument more SOUND!

In a constitutional republic, the people HAVE the power to impeach the president. The PEOPLE choose other PEOPLE that they WANT representing them! Ideally, congress consists of people who REPRESENT the PEOPLE! The people need to represent people that will do this.

No, the people do not have the power to impeach the president; especially with less than a year left in his term. Even if the vast, vast majority of the voting electorate wanted the president impeached, they could not do it. While they could support candidates for the House that would vote to impeach the president, those newly elected representatives would not take office until after Mr. Bush left office. Therefore it is simply wrong to claim that the voters have the power to impeach the president.

As I am typing this I DO see your point but still you were confused nonetheless.

Right, your exact words were...

Yeah but when you have a group of people that elected in a president that says the Constitution is just a god-damn piece of paper it makes me question the spine of the american people that refuse to impeach him and his vice president.

...and I am the one who was confused.

[Herzblut]

Do You Love America?
I love my wife.

[quarky]

I love America's trees.

[Dr Adequate]

Yes, I love America. It's sexy, ugly, beautiful, funny, humorless, intelligent, stupid, crazy, brave, paranoid, egotistical, insecure, adorable, infuriating, vulgar, uptight, sluttish, and prissy, and it has a really dirty mind. What's not to love?

[ronpaulisright]

No, the people do not have the power to impeach the president

Yes they do. and if you think otherwise, then you are mistaken!

[ronpaulisright]

Impeaching cheney is a good idea tambien!

[Ladewig]

Yes they do. and if you think otherwise, then you are mistaken!

Your logic would lead to the conclusion that the American people have the power to elect someone not born in the United States. All they would have to do is elect Congressional members who would vote to change the Constitution and then elect someone not born in this country.

[quarky]

Anyone know if other countries are allowed foreign-born presidents?
Bill Clinton could win in France, if legal.

[mortimer]

With that being said I can probably tolerate nevada
Have you figured out that you still have to pay federal income tax as a resident of Nevada? No? Does that change your tolerance level?

[Diagoras]

Do I "love" "America"? No. I love people and a select few animals I have an attachment to. I don't "love" nor do I think I can "love" a piece of land in any meaningful sense of the word. When I say I love someone, that means I care about them more than I care about just anybody. I don't love all 300 million residents of America either. If I did it wouldn't mean anything for me to say I love my close ones. I like plenty of Americans, I love a few Americans, I hate some Americans and most of them I don't even know. I don't even particularly like Americans any more than I like non-Americans either. Do I love the political ideals upon which the country was founded? Well, sure the whole democracy and freedom thing is definitely a good idea, but it's not like America is the country that has its s#!% the most together in that department, or that it's the only country where people espouse those ideals.

[coalesce]

Yes, I love America. It's sexy, ugly, beautiful, funny, humorless, intelligent, stupid, crazy, brave, paranoid, egotistical, insecure, adorable, infuriating, vulgar, uptight, sluttish, and prissy, and it has a really dirty mind. What's not to love?

But enough about me...

Michael

[moon1969]

Yeah their media talks about what happends in Iraq and Russian media doesn"t say anything about the genocide in Chechnya.

[Thunder]

I love my country..though we have been led astray by King George. Hopefully those days will be over soon.

[christie malry]

Really - which one?