The pledge

[billydkid]

I have always held that The Pledge of Allegiance is fundamentally UnAmerican and smacks of authoritarian and totalitarian societies. I think this photo which shows the original pledge salute reverberates with implications in that regard.

http://rexcurry.net/pledge-utah2.jpg

No free society requires pledges of allegiance to assure loyalty in its citizens. In a free society you have the option of being a citizen or not and choosing to be a citizen is a statement of loyality in itself and no further oath is required - not to mention noone who wanted to undermine a society would have any qualms about falsely pledging their loyalty to it just as anyone inclined to perjure themselves in a court of law would have any qualms about swearing to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". The notion of requiring pledges represents a mentality which is foreign to me and alien to any society in which people are only citizens by choice - which would have to be true for any society to be considered remotely a free society.

[JoeEllison]

The whole thing IS sort of weird, isn't it? Especially the whole "to the flag" bit, which never made sense to me at all.

[MarkCorrigan]

Personally the pledge sounds exactly like a way to attempt to breed nationalism in the populous. I think it was trumpeted during the cold war for this exact purpose, and it's still continuing to do so today.

What do I know though? I'm from the UK.

[Kestrel]

Personally the pledge sounds exactly like a way to attempt to breed nationalism in the populous. I think it was trumpeted during the cold war for this exact purpose, and it's still continuing to do so today.

What do I know though? I'm from the UK.

It dates from long before the Cold War, but the purpose was precisely to breed nationalism.

[Ladewig]

I have always held that The Pledge of Allegiance is fundamentally UnAmerican and smacks of authoritarian and totalitarian societies.

I suppose that might be true if the pledge were required; but seeing as how it is not, I am not convinced of its totalitarianism. Don't like it? Then don't say it.

I think this photo which shows the original pledge salute reverberates with implications in that regard.

And I think you are taking the photo out of context in that before WW II, no one really associated an salute consisting of an outstretched arm as a sign of a totalitarian political activity.

[MarkCorrigan]

It dates from long before the Cold War, but the purpose was precisely to breed nationalism.

You know, I do actually understand that.

I in fact stated that it was "trumpeted" during the CW. It was, in fact, and my point bore no mention of it being created, worded (although I believe it was reworded in the 50's, hence during the CW) or otherwise formed during the aforementioned period.

[Gravy]

I suppose that might be true if the pledge were required; but seeing as how it is not, I am not convinced of its totalitarianism. Don't like it? Then don't say it.The problem is that children who are too young to make that decision, and who are subject to peer pressure and social stigmas, are instructed to say it every school day.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

IIRC, it was instituted to ensure that the influx of immigrants' children would be assimilated into a homogeneous American culture.

Yeah, I think it's stupid.

[TragicMonkey]

The problem is that children who are too young to make that decision, and who are subject to peer pressure and social stigmas, are instructed to say it every school day.

Just like making kids recite prayers, really.

[Whack01]

"choosing to be a citizen is a statement of loyality in itself and no further oath is required "


If choosing to live in a country/be a citizen is a statement of loyalty in a free society, then is that land free? People wouldn't be able to chose to be disloyal and live in the land. In America we afford disloyal people citizenship as long as they are peaceful (quasi Reducto ad hitlerum incoming!!! :p ) or have we tossed the neo-nazi's out yet?

[shadron]

And I think you are taking the photo out of context in that before WW II, no one really associated an salute consisting of an outstretched arm as a sign of a totalitarian political activity.

I don't think that is really the point. The point is that was just as much a nationalistic gesture over here as the same salute was over there. That some legislators and other leaders decided that such was needed in order to promote some spiritual feeling about America as more than just a loyalty, as a religion, actually, in all but name. In my view it is the "Hail, Mary" or "Lord's Prayer" of the American religion, the flag becoming the symbol like the cross, and the faith being in the government "for which it stands". As with any religion, I don't seeing it being needful for full expression of my life or my citizenship.

[Complexity]

I have always held that The Pledge of Allegiance is fundamentally UnAmerican and smacks of authoritarian and totalitarian societies. I think this photo which shows the original pledge salute reverberates with implications in that regard.

http://rexcurry.net/pledge-utah2.jpg

No free society requires pledges of allegiance to assure loyalty in its citizens. In a free society you have the option of being a citizen or not and choosing to be a citizen is a statement of loyality in itself and no further oath is required - not to mention noone who wanted to undermine a society would have any qualms about falsely pledging their loyalty to it just as anyone inclined to perjure themselves in a court of law would have any qualms about swearing to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". The notion of requiring pledges represents a mentality which is foreign to me and alien to any society in which people are only citizens by choice - which would have to be true for any society to be considered remotely a free society.


I absolutely agree.

I hated it when I was young, went along with it in order to conform, have regretted that ever since, and will never say it again. I avoid situations where it is likely to occur. From this day forward, I won't rise or do anything in furtherance of this Hitler-youthian activity.

Three eighth-grade boys in a small town in Minnesota were recently suspended from school for not rising to their feet when others were saying the damned pledge.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html

[Ladewig]

The problem is that children who are too young to make that decision, and who are subject to peer pressure and social stigmas, are instructed to say it every school day.

I hadn't thought about the grade school children. You are right.

. . . . . . . . .
After starting this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=112167), I should have been more aware of the absurdity that results when people place too much emphasis on the pledge.

[Soapy Sam]

Oh THAT nonsense.
Phew.
I thought this was about http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REtemperance.htm
taking the other pledge.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The problem is that children who are too young to make that decision, and who are subject to peer pressure and social stigmas, are instructed to say it every school day.

Why do you hate America?

[Loss Leader]

Always thought it was silly.

[Safe-Keeper]

I've lived in the States (Houston) for three years, and I was always uncomfortable with the amount of patriotism forced onto Americans. Not "forced onto" in the literal sense, 'cause it's them themselves choosing to go along with it and as has been said, it's voluntary to say the pledge. I'm talking about the sheer amount of it.

The psychology textbook I bought there has two pages in the front with patriotic content totally unrelated to psychology. Every day starts with the pledge. US flags are practically "spammed" everywhere - not only do people fly it every day from their houses, it's also all over towels, bumper stickers, handkerchiefs, pillows, dinner plates - you name it. I remember going to a show put on by the Asian Heritage Club or whatever it was called, and there being this short militaristic routine with flags by the JROTC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JROTC) (a militaristic version of the boy scouts that you can join to learn to shoot rifles and learn "citizenship") beforehand.

I'm glad patriotism is voluntary (not taking peer pressure into account), but again, the sheer amount of it is very disturbing. The level of which patriotic messages permeates American society, which does, after all, not have a one-party system, is nothing short of disturbing.

[Bikewer]

As a dutiful Catholic-school child in the 50s, we essentially repeated the pledge on a daily basis, along with obligatory church attendance. (we also had to sing funeral masses...In Latin. Yechh.)
I don't recall if the addition of the "under God" wording took place then; I believe it was.

Naturally, too young then to have much of an opinion about it.
When I joined the army in '64, we would go to the post theater all the time. Every film was preceded by the Star-Spangled Banner, which you'd expect on a military base. However, it was also accompanied by a film which depicted stirring wartime action. Bombs exploding, rockets firing, battleships firing broadsides, infantry firing machine guns.... Yay for our side!