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View Full Version : Lack of motive is evidence against demolition of WTC7


1337m4n
11th May 2008, 01:04 PM
In this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=113078) we destroyed the last conceivable motive anyone has been able to think of for the controlled demolition of Building 7.

Some of you are understandably thinking "So"?

True enough, motive does not trump hard evidence. If you have hard evidence that Bob murdered Fred, then the question of Bob's motive becomes irrelevant to the fact that a murder did indeed take place.

However, there are two things that make the hypothetical demolition of Building 7 different from a simple murder case. Two reasons why the lack of any motive is damning for the "Truth" Movement's case:

1) It can hardly be said that there is "hard evidence" for the controlled demolition of Building 7. At best, all our "Truthers" can produce is speculation, based on little more than personal incredulity (http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Argument_from_Incredulity): "It LOOKED like a controlled demolition", "Silverstein said 'pull' and I THINK that's pretty suspicious", etc. However, there is no hard evidence: no explosive residue, no videos or eyewitness records of sounds comparable to the sounds of the Landmark Demolition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79sJ1bMR6VQ) (bear in mind that witness accounts of sparse, small, isolated "explosions" do not count, for obvious reasons), no seismic records indicating demolition blasts, no whistleblowers coming forward to say that a demolition of Building 7 was ordered or performed. There aren't even any calculations or analyses of the collapse that indicate controlled demolition was more likely than natural collapse.

Without hard evidence, the analogy of motive being irrelevant to the case of Bob murdering Fred, becomes non-applicable to the case of Building 7.


2) When there are alternative explanations available, an analysis of motives can make one of those explanations far more likely than the other. If we find that Fred was shot multiple times in the chest, it's true that we don't need to know anyone's motive in order to determine that a murder took place.

But, suppose there are no bullet holes in Fred's chest, just a bunch of smashed ribs along with various other bruises. Suddenly, murder is no longer the only explanation. There are now alternative explanations open. He could have been hit by a car full of drunk teenagers. He could have fallen from the building nearby. If Bob has no possible motive for killing Fred, one of these alternative explanations becomes much more likely than murder, all other evidence equal.

And so with Building 7, there are alternative explanations available. Controlled demolition is not the only known option for what happened to it. It could have suffered collapse due to a combination of falling debris damage and heat weakening. This explanation requires no motive. Controlled Demolition, on the other hand, DOES require a motive: nobody coordinates a massive conspiracy to blow up a 40-story building and cover it up, just for the sheer fun of it. It needs a motive, and thus far, no motive has been given at all, let alone one capable of justifying the massive expenditure of effort, money, and risk that would be required to demolish such a building in the middle of public eye and keep it hidden.

Think: criminal demolition is not as easy a crime to pull off as shoplifting from your local Wal-Mart. You've got purchase the equipment, which adds risk because the purchase orders for the explosives can be traced. You've got to set up the demolition without anyone noticing, which adds risk because setting up a demolition takes from weeks to several months and involves a great deal of work and manpower. Then, you'll need an alibi. For Building 7, this would be the debris that collapsed upon it from the nearby Tower, but as we already have a thread about, what guarantee would there be that Building 7 would actually take enough debris damage to create an effective alibi? Then of course, you risk eyewitnesses noticing the demolition and seismic sensors picking it up. If you're caught, it's no simple matter of fines and mandatory community service--you're going to jail for the better part of your life.

So we must ask, why would ANYONE go through that much trouble, risk, and expense? The fact that no Truther has ever come up with a satisfactory answer to that question, coupled with the fact that there is an alternative explanation available (fire and debris damage), makes that alternative explanation far more likely than any deliberate demolition.

And THAT, my friends, is why motive is important.

uk_dave
11th May 2008, 01:29 PM
I think means is just as important as motive.

'Truthers' have argued that the motive was:

Humanitarian : To clear the way for the rescue operation (so why keep it a secret?)

Nefarious : To hide....something (though not a very good way of hiding something)

But how would they have done it?

Even if the building wasn't severely damaged and on fire, there was still a hell of alot of people at ground zero, taking an interest in all of the buildings around the pile in case there was another collapse (oh the irony) along with the worlds media. So we are to believe that a super ninja team of (military?) demolition experts leapt into action and set about planting explosives within the building after the building owner and the fire department decided to pull it................

......it's all too absurd to continue.

Motive and means, both missing from the wtc7 narrative and only believed by those desperate to have something (anything!!) now that they have failed to convince (or even tried, for that matter) anyone that it was impossible for the wtc towers to have collapsed from the damage they had sustained.

RAZEtheFLAG
11th May 2008, 01:46 PM
I think there are possible reasons for bringing down WTC-7 other then some evil conspiracy theory. The problem is why would they lie if that's the case? For instance if they brought it down because it was a hazard or in danger of continuing to burn putting other buildings and lives in danger or for whatever reason decided to bring it down and did that wouldn't be so much of a problem. It would be the lying about it and the opening up of the question what else might they be lying about? Right? Unless it's an insurance thing.

DGM
11th May 2008, 01:51 PM
I think there are possible reasons for bringing down WTC-7 other then some evil conspiracy theory. The problem is why would they lie if that's the case? For instance if they brought it down because it was a hazard or in danger of continuing to burn putting other buildings and lives in danger or for whatever reason decided to bring it down and did that wouldn't be so much of a problem. It would be the lying about it and the opening up of the question what else might they be lying about? Right? Unless it's an insurance thing.
What the hell are you trying to say? Any (attempted) cover up of a demolition would be stupid (and a crime). Insurance thing?

uk_dave
11th May 2008, 02:07 PM
I can just see it now:

Evil Conspirator : Okay chaps, listen up. We've got to go into wtc7 with these experimental thermite cutter thingies the boffins have dreamed up, and bring the blighter down. Questions?

Demo grunt 1: Why sir?

Evil conspirator: Well, apparently, it will aid the rescue mission, so you'll be doing some good, for a change. Okay ready to go?

Demo grunt 2: Sir?

Evil conspirator : Yes smithers?

Demo grunt 2 : Green, sir.

Evil Conspirator : Oh yes, sorry. Well green?

Demo Grunt 2 : Well sir, will it be...... dangerous?

Evil conspirator : Dangerous? No! Piece of cake! Jerry won't even see you coming.

Demo Grunt 2 : Jerry sir?

Evil conspirator : I mean...the media yes.... the media...bloody BBC and all that...interfering jonnies.... don't know what's good for them ...and all that. What?

Demo grunt 3 : But sir...if you don't mind me saying, I've heard this blighter is on fire.....

Demo grunt 1 : ....and leaning.....ummm...sir?

Evil conspirator : Stuff a nonesense. WTC7 is in perfect shape. No problems there.

Demo grunt 2 : So will we get a medal, sir?

Evil conspirator : Medals?

Demo grunt 2 : Yes sir. For our valiant efforts...and all.

Evil conspirator : Oh no...no no no..... no no no no...oh no..... no...no medals chaps... can't talk about it either...strictly hush hush and all that.

Demo grunt 3 : Why sir?

Evil conspirator: Why?

Demo grunt 1: yes, why?

Evil conspirator : Well, that's obvious isn't it? Can't let jerry know what we're doing, will give the whole game away, the the balloon will go up and we'll have our backs to the wall as the hoards of frenchies come over the hill intent on stealing our women. Oh no. Hush hush. Gotta play with a straight bat, me boy, or you'll be on a sticky whicket. Now....ready?

Demo grunt 4 : Which way up do these go?

SDC
11th May 2008, 02:15 PM
"Jerry"?? Say, how long ago are you claiming the explosives were planted? I don't know even what was in the WTC area during WW2 ... Landfill?

Unless of course you are cunningly introducing the notion that Silverstein is actually the evil ... Jerry Van Dyke! Aha!! Seriously, have you ever seen the two of them together?

Tweeter
11th May 2008, 02:42 PM
I kinda liked the "it looks like a cd, so it couldnt be" theory one of you debunkers proposed better.

Garb
11th May 2008, 02:44 PM
I kinda liked the "it looks like a cd, so it couldnt be" theory one of you debunkers proposed better.

Where was this?

stateofgrace
11th May 2008, 03:42 PM
Where was this?

Here..........

On top of what you have just posted I would like just to add to this comment.

I have always had an issue with "It looks like a CD" because does it really make sense? Sure, I agree it does look like a CD but this in itself is a problem. Say, hypothetically all the conditions you have laid out in your post are met, that the "preps" went to this extraordinary effort to make all this happen,does it really make sense that they would not try and disguise the demolition of WTC 7? Does it really make sense that they would wait for the dust cloud to settle, allow the demolition to be filmed? Allow fire-fighters anywhere near it? Does it really make sense that they would demolish a building in full view of everybody when they had a perfect opportunity to do so when it was obscured?

The point is, if WRC 7 was demolished then it makes no sense that they would have allowed it to look like a CD. It makes far more sense that, if they really wanted to get away with it, they would have disguised it, maybe brought it down immediately after the towers had collapsed, hidden from view.

The fact that it looks like a CD, in my opinion makes it even less likely it was a CD, simply by the fact that had the "perps" had the fore thought to actually fore fill the criteria you have laid down then, as you say, it beggars belief that they would be so sloppy with the demolition of this building when they had plenty of opportunity to destroy it beforehand.

In this thread.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=113396

In which tweeter has not participated. The same thread in which is now being totally derailed because the twoofers can offer nothing at all in the way of their own thoughts regarding the OP.

twinstead
11th May 2008, 05:35 PM
I kinda liked the "it looks like a cd, so it couldnt be" theory one of you debunkers proposed better.

I'm saddened that Tweeter decided to post this tripe instead of actually addressing the argument brought up in the OP.

Arus808
11th May 2008, 07:41 PM
I'm saddened that Tweeter decided to post this tripe instead of actually addressing the argument brought up in the OP.


not at all surprising; since there are currently 5 threads right now, with direct questions to the in the OP to the resident troofers ,and none of them have contributed any answers to what is asked in the OP. instead they derail the thread.