Homepathic Taste Test

[hughie522]

One of the proposed testing proceedures that comes up now and again for homeopathic products is whether or not a homeopath (or a challenger) can tell the difference between ordinary, honest to goodness tap water and a homeopathically treated concoction.

I think the same proceedure has been proffered to 'Miracle Water' peddlers such as Penta Water. What I don't understand is how this proceedure would work.

For example, I'm pretty sure I can't tell the difference (taste-wise) between aspirin and a placebo (you'd think that'd be paranormal in itself if I could). We're talking minute quantities here (miligrams), much less than I think most people could detect by taste (or smell or detect with any of the other 'normal' senses we human beings possess).

Does this sort of 'telling the difference' refer to some sort of chemical testing? What sort of testing will be permissable in such a test? I've just never been 100% clear on this and figured others may be similarily confused.

[jimtron]

It isn't too difficult to tell the difference between aspirin and a placebo. If a homeopathic remedy is indistinguishable from a placebo, which apparently is the case, one wonders if they are one and the same.

If you can tell the difference between a 30C diluted homeopathic remedy and a placebo, using chemical or any type of testing, I'm pretty sure you can have the million (though I do not speak for JREF).

Do you agree that there is a detectable difference between aspirin and a placebo? Do you believe there is a detectable difference between a 30C homeopathic remedy and a placebo?

[Michael C]

For the Million Dollar Challenge, any method of telling the difference between homeopathic remedies is permissible. Imagine this:

A blind test: twenty samples are prepared. For each sample a random decision is made: it's either a 30C homeopathic remedy made from a certain known substance, or a placebo prepared in the same way as the remedy, but without the initial substance. The samples are labelled with codes: nobody knows which samples are placebos apart from the person who did the coding.

The challenger must, for each sample, determine if it's the remedy or the placebo. He/she can use whatever technique they want: they could use some sort of chemical analysis, they could administer the samples to patients, they could swing a pendulum over the samples, they could use a spectrometer...

If the challenger can correctly determine in each case if the sample is the homeopathic remedy or a placebo, they win the challenge.

[yairhol]

For the Million Dollar Challenge, any method of telling the difference between homeopathic remedies is permissible. Imagine this:

A blind test: twenty samples are prepared. For each sample a random decision is made: it's either a 30C homeopathic remedy made from a certain known substance, or a placebo prepared in the same way as the remedy, but without the initial substance. The samples are labelled with codes: nobody knows which samples are placebos apart from the person who did the coding.

The challenger must, for each sample, determine if it's the remedy or the placebo. He/she can use whatever technique they want: they could use some sort of chemical analysis, they could administer the samples to patients, they could swing a pendulum over the samples, they could use a spectrometer...

If the challenger can correctly determine in each case if the sample is the homeopathic remedy or a placebo, they win the challenge.

This is not what the homepaths that I've talked to are saying. They do realize that there is not 1 molecule of the original substance in the final 30C mixing. The power of the rememdy lies in the water's ability to remember the original substance's qulities. How does water remember is not of their concern (that's what they tell me and they don't even care to know). They say the rememdy works on "deep energetic levels" (whatever that means) and their 30C pills or liquids are indeed undistinguishable from placebo except that their remedy will work on patients with much better results than placebo.
So in my opinion, homeopaths will not be interested in a test which requires them to tell the difference between a placebo and a homeopathic remedy by means other than seeing the effect it has on patients.

[Mojo]

This is not what the homepaths that I've talked to are saying. They do realize that there is not 1 molecule of the original substance in the final 30C mixing. The power of the rememdy lies in the water's ability to remember the original substance's qulities. How does water remember is not of their concern (that's what they tell me and they don't even care to know). They say the rememdy works on "deep energetic levels" (whatever that means) and their 30C pills or liquids are indeed undistinguishable from placebo except that their remedy will work on patients with much better results than placebo.
So in my opinion, homeopaths will not be interested in a test which requires them to tell the difference between a placebo and a homeopathic remedy by means other than seeing the effect it has on patients.


Perhaps not. See here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=88831), for example.

[Michael C]

This is not what the homepaths that I've talked to are saying. They do realize that there is not 1 molecule of the original substance in the final 30C mixing. The power of the rememdy lies in the water's ability to remember the original substance's qulities. How does water remember is not of their concern (that's what they tell me and they don't even care to know). They say the rememdy works on "deep energetic levels" (whatever that means) and their 30C pills or liquids are indeed undistinguishable from placebo except that their remedy will work on patients with much better results than placebo.
So in my opinion, homeopaths will not be interested in a test which requires them to tell the difference between a placebo and a homeopathic remedy by means other than seeing the effect it has on patients.

The challenger is free to choose the means of determining whether the substance is placebo or not. As I said in my first post, they may

use whatever technique they want: they could use some sort of chemical analysis, they could administer the samples to patients, they could swing a pendulum over the samples, they could use a spectrometer...

All that the skeptics are saying is this: there is no difference between a 30C preparation of Arnica, a 30C preparation of Belladonna, a 30C preparation of lark's vomit or a placebo prepared in the same manner. If homeopath can prove them wrong, using any method they choose, they win.

[hughie522]

Do you agree that there is a detectable difference between aspirin and a placebo?

I'm sure there is. I'm just not sure I could detect it by sucking on either.

[jimtron]

I'm sure there is. I'm just not sure I could detect it by sucking on either.

I would think that the aspirin would be very bitter and not so much for the placebo, but I don't know for sure. In any case, what the critics of homeopathy are saying, is that there is absolutely no way for anyone, using any method, to distinguish between a placebo and a 30C (or greater) homeopathic remedy. Aspirin contains aspirin. Homeopathic remedies usually do not contain a single molecule of their active ingredient.

So a taste test seems irrelevant to me, unless you can taste the difference between a placebo and a homeopathic remedy.

[Michael C]

I would think that the aspirin would be very bitter and not so much for the placebo, but I don't know for sure.

It's probably possible to make a bitter placebo that will have much the same flavour as aspirin. I don't think taste would be a efficient way of distinguishing between different drugs. The point is that there certainly are ways to distinguish aspirin from placebo, but nobody has come up with a way of distinguishing between different homeopathic remedies.

[chillzero]

But, you don't need a taste test for aspirin, because it has measurable effects on blood, surely? The whole reason for wanting a taste test or something similar, is because there is no evident effect of a homeopathic liquid on anything, so subjective 'testing' is all that remains.

[Cuddles]

I'm just not sure I could detect it by sucking on either.

So what? I don't see why you are so hung up on tasting drugs. That is not how any drugs are tested for, so why would it be the case for homeopathy? No-one has ever challenge homeopaths to tell the difference between their remedies by tasting them, they have challenged them to tell the difference in any way at all.

[Thabiguy]

We're talking minute quantities here (miligrams), much less than I think most people could detect by taste (or smell or detect with any of the other 'normal' senses we human beings possess).

I think this is worth correcting. You would easily detect a milligram of, for example, salt or sugar, by taste. A milligram of salt or sugar would be a rather large grain, some 0.8 mm across.

And smell is far more sensitive than that - you routinely detect microgram quantities of odorous substances.

So if a substance has a distinct smell/taste, it can often be detected in common therapeutic doses, and this includes aspirin, which is quite bitter.

But as has been said, it's not about recognizing homeopathic medicines by taste or smell, it's about recognizing them by any effect.