More Republican dirty tricks

[Tricky]

The FBI has admitted it planted a bug (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/09/mayor.bugged/index.html) in the office of John Street, the Mayor of Philadelphia. Once again we see that the greater leeway given to our government intelligence agencies by this Republican administration has been abused for political purposes. While the FBI says the device...
was not connected to a political campaign
however, they refuse to comment on what it was for. Street is locked in a tight re-election race with Republican Sam Katz.

Why does it always seem that when these kind of dirty tricks are taking place, it is a Democrat or a liberal who is attacked? From the Watergate burglary to the Pentagon Papers to the smearing of Martin Luther King to the use of Homeland Security to chase down Texas Democrats, the trend is quite clear: Republicans consider nothing beneath them.

[a_unique_person]

You are enganged in "moral relativism" Tricky. These guys have god on their side.

[Cain]

+Redrawing district lines in Texas in the middle of the decade
+2000 Election
+Recall in California
+Outing Joseph Wilson's wife as a CIA agent
Naked Republican Power Grab

Grover Norquist recently compared the estate tax to the Holocaust on NPR (maybe he was ambushed a la O'Reilly)
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_10_05.html#002058

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Cain
[B]+Redrawing district lines in Texas in the middle of the decade
+2000 Election
+Recall in California
+Outing Joseph Wilson's wife as a CIA agent
Naked Republican Power Grab



Oh, man! Do they have to be NAKED?

[peptoabysmal]

From the article:

"I've been an elected official now for 24 years, and I value my integrity very highly," Street, a Democrat, told CNN. "And this speculation about whether or not I'm a target of any federal investigation has caused some concern."


I don't know, sounds pretty suspicious to me. I'd put him under surveilance too!

Hmmm... I'm thinking "Phillygate".

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Cain
+Redrawing district lines in Texas in the middle of the decade
That's less often than they do it here in Illinois.

+2000 Election
The way they tricked Dems into the punch card butterfly ballots, sheer evil genius!

+Recall in California
More evil genius, the way they set up the recall provision 95 years ago, just to get Gray Davis. Those sneaky devils!

They even brought down the Republican governor here in Illinois just because he was corrupt, creating a backlash that gave Dems full control of state government. Obviously part of a dastardly plan to avoid suspicion when they go after the Philly mayor...

The "vast right-wing conspiracy" moves forward... :wink:

The real story: (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/09/mayor.bugged/index.html)
Street administration officials have said they are cooperating with two investigations into alleged parking ticket fixing and the awarding of airport contracts.
Seems someone has his hand in the cookie jar. All the outrage and denials and "are not the target of an investigation" rhetoric is eerily similar to what was happening here in Illinois, just before George Ryan's Republican administration went down in a sea of scandal, prosecutions, convictions, and jail time.

The FBI can't plant eavesdropping devices w/o a court order, methinks Street doth protest too much.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Cain, Smashed by Corplinx

"Redrawing district lines in Texas in the middle of the decade"
within the rule of law, happens in every state, waaaaaaaa

"2000 Election"
its called the electoral system, take a civics class slick

"Recall in California"
What does the Kennedy/Shriver clan expanding its reach (new england) to the east coast have todo with the core GOP? McClintock didn't win.

"Outing Joseph Wilson's wife as a CIA agent"
speculation so far

"Naked Republican Power Grab"
paranoid woowoo conspiracy

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by corplinx
"Naked Republican Power Grab"
paranoid woowoo conspiracy

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, Corp...


But only until I see Rumsfeld running around starkers.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by corplinx


"Redrawing district lines in Texas in the middle of the decade"
within the rule of law, happens in every state, waaaaaaaa.

In Texas it only happens in census years, by gentlemen's agreement. No laws were broken, only protocol. Still pretty cheap. And don't squall. See if you can have someone change your diaper.
Originally posted by corplinx
Originally posted by Corplinx
"2000 Election"
it's called the electoral system, take a civics class slick
New precedents were set with the 2000 election. It was decided by the Supreme Court, not the electoral system. Write a new civics class, slick.
Originally posted by corplinx
Originally posted by Corplinx
"Recall in California"
What does the Kennedy/Shriver clan expanding its reach (new england) to the east coast have to do with the core GOP? McClintock didn't win.
More precedents set. Don't be surprised if Arnie gets a recall petition too. When it happens, recall who started the ugliness. On the other hand, I have no problems with Governer Elect Schwartzenneger. I am in favor of the Republicans replenishing their liberal ranks. Since Rockefeller died, they haven't had a decent liberal.

Originally posted by corplinx
"Outing Joseph Wilson's wife as a CIA agent"
speculation so far
No speculation at all as to whether or not it happened. Novak said it came from a White House source. The only speculation is who did it, unless you think Novak is lying.

Originally posted by corplinx
Originally posted by Corplinx
"Naked Republican Power Grab"
paranoid woowoo conspiracy
As I pointed out, there is quite a pattern of Republicans using dirty tricks. Democrats do too, but they are either less prone to use them or not as good at it, because you seldom hear about them, except on conservative talk shows.

Now do you want to comment on the bug in Street's office? I am interested to see if and how this action is defended.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tricky


As I pointed out, there is quite a pattern of Republicans using dirty tricks.

It hasn't been pointed out in this thread. The closest you got to was breaches of "precedent".

I have no doubts they play dirty, but the tricks aren't listed in this thread.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by corplinx
It hasn't been pointed out in this thread. The closest you got to was breaches of "precedent".

I have no doubts they play dirty, but the tricks aren't listed in this thread.
Did you read the original post? Watergate burglery e.g.? I could list quite a few more. I haven't even mentioned the Clinton years.

[Cain]

Two of the silliest posts by I've read by Wildcat and Corpolinx.

I mean, yeah, the 2000 election is just about butterfly ballots :rolleyes:

But what interests me is the way how both of you glibly invoke the word conspiracy, mostly as a smear tactic. Bring out the 'C' word, chant "woowoo" (exploiting your own superior skepticism I suppose) -- it's rather depressing.

It's conspiratorial now to suggest that Republicans that Republicans actively seek more power over government? Uh-huh.

What does the Kennedy/Shriver clan expanding its reach (new england) to the east coast have todo with the core GOP? McClintock didn't win.

Oh, is that what this is- the "Kennedy/Shriver clan" expanding its reach. And I'm the "woowoo"? You do realize the GOP formally backed Arnold, right? You do realize that Gray Davis was re-elected, as much as we hate him, nine months before the recall got underway, no?

:rolleyes:

[Tricky]

Won't somebody please comment on the Philadelphia bugging? I know the thread topic was probably misleading and provocative, but I honestly want to know if anyone has any ideas why this happened. It seems like a most egregious breach of ethics but maybe there are some things I don't know about it. Please educate me.

[Scott]

Why does it always seem that when these kind of dirty tricks are taking place, it is a Democrat or a liberal who is attacked?

No offense intended, but it's because that's the way you want to see it. Democrat dirty tricks abound, here's a few from just the last few years:

* Trying to steal an election when Gore never led in the offical vote counting, only in the exit polls.

* Continuing to declare Bush as the unelected President when even though he won every recount.

* Continuing to declare that the Supremes voted 5/4 along party lines to "award" Bush the Presidency when it was actually 7/2.

* Leaking a court ordered sealed 24-year old DUI charge at the last minute

* The Willie Horton issue (dem on dem here).

* NJ now has a Senator named Lautenberg

* Gay baiting against Republicans in Hawaii, Montana and South Carolina

* Race baiting against a black Republican in MA

* The Wellstone Democratic Pep Rally, I mean funeral

* Unconstitutional filibusters on judicial nominees

* Tom Harkin's TapeGate

* Bush's video being sent to the Gore camp (kudos to the Gore camp for turning it in to the FBI)

* Flat out lying about those "16 words" that the country and their intellegence agency that we got them from (Britian) still to this day stand 100% behind.

The list goes on and on...

Like I said, and I mean no offense, it's just the way you see it.

And I'll comment on the bug...

I have no idea why it's there, but I wonder what Street did/does, or who he routinely associates with in his office that would give a federal judge enough cause to authorize the FBI to place it.

To claim the sky is falling on dems, and it must be dirty tricks because the FBI wion't tell you why it's there is nuts.

Also...

Novak said it came from a White House source.

Nope. Novak specifically said it did not come from a WhiteHouse source.

In Texas it only happens in census years, by gentlemen's agreement.

The Texas Constitution says it has to be done by the legislature or the Legislative Redistricting Board of Texas at its first regular session after the publication of each United States decennial census (Article 3 Section 28). It wasn't.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Just to rebut (And I am not affliated with any party that will not have me as a presidential candidate.)

* Trying to steal an election when Gore never led in the offical vote counting, only in the exit polls.

* Continuing to declare Bush as the unelected President when even though he won every recount.
.

Actually, Gore DID win the popular vote. I won't link here, you can find that link numerous othe rplaces on this board.

* Unconstitutional filibusters on judicial nominees
Unpresidented, yes. Unconstitutional, no.

* Flat out lying about those "16 words" that the country and their intellegence agency that we got them from (Britian) still to this day stand 100% behind.
I'm confused by this one. Blair has made that statement, not Dems.

Now, I am not commenting on anything I have no knowledge of, so the rest of your list is safe from me.

To be fair, there is also some things from the left that I find amusing.

*Clinton commits adultry (not a big deal as far as I'm concerned) but lies about it under oath. This is a crime. He gets penalized. This is a "bad thing". Arnie does some sexual bad things, he is "not fit to hold office."

*The Phildephia bugging, one must admit, seems a bit suspicious. Not quite as suspicious as the FBI files found in the posession of the Clintons, however.

And to be fair, Novak specifically stated that the info came from two White House sources. He later recanted.

[Scott]

Unpresidented, yes. Unconstitutional, no.

Article II, Section 2:

...and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint...

The senate is not being givin the opportuity to advise or consent.

Actually, Gore DID win the popular vote.

Not in Florida.

I'm confused by this one. Blair has made that statement, not Dems.

Dems continue to push that Bush lied, but he didn't. He said Brtitish intel learned of the uranium purchase. British intel stands by that, Bush stands by it, but concedes it probably shouldn't have been in the speech.

[Cain]

Originally posted by Scott

* Trying to steal an election when Gore never led in the offical vote counting, only in the exit polls.

* Continuing to declare Bush as the unelected President when even though he won every recount.

:rolleyes: As mentioned already, Gore had about 500,000 more votes. For the civics lesson on Florida, the final recount had Bush winning by about 500 votes (if only three districts were recounted. Recounting the entire state had Gore winning.) In either case, the mathematician John Allen Paulos is certainly on to something when he says the margin of victory exceeded the margin of error.

* Continuing to declare that the Supremes voted 5/4 along party lines to "award" Bush the Presidency when it was actually 7/2.

:rolleyes:

* Leaking a court ordered sealed 24-year old DUI charge at the last minute

I have no comment on this other than to say Al Franken had a good deal of fun with Karen Hughes' explanation (she said Bush was pulled over for driving, uh, uh, uh, uh, too slowly. That's it -- too slowly.

* The Willie Horton issue (dem on dem here).

see: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh110102.shtml
and Eric Alterman's _What Liberal Media?_


[snip, snip, snip]

* The Wellstone Democratic Pep Rally, I mean funeral

Uh-huh.

*Unconstitutional filibusters on judicial nominees

See again _What Liberal Media_ comparing Republican filibusters during the Clinton years (George Will's hypocrisy is especially egregious).

[snip, snip]

* Flat out lying about those "16 words" that the country and their intellegence agency that we got them from (Britian) still to this day stand 100% behind.

:rolleyes: Contradicted by our own CIA. At the request of the Tenet, Bush removed the claim from an October speech, but it somehow made it's way again into the State of the Union. An oversight :rolleyes:

edit: I've never rolled my eyes so much.

[Scott]

Novak specifically stated that the info came from two White House sources.

From Novak's July 14, 2003 article that started that whole affair...

"Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report."

[Scott]

In either case, the mathematician John Allen Paulos is certainly on to something when he says the margin of victory exceeded the margin of error.

I agree, Bush probably would have won by a bigger margin than reported.

i said - The Willie Horton issue (dem on dem here).

You said see: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh110102.shtml
and Eric Alterman's _What Liberal Media?_

Gore brought the Mass. prisoner furlough program into the dem. nomination race as fodder against Dukakis. It's better known as the Willie Horton issue. Either way, Bush never mentioned Horton in his campaign ads, but got all the blame for the it.

Regarding the judical filibusters, I ain't sayin' they're right when Reps do them and dirty tricks when dems do them. It's dirty tricks on both sides.

[Cain]

Gore brought the Mass. prisoner furlough program into the dem. nomination race as fodder against Dukakis. It's better known as the Willie Horton issue. Either way, Bush never mentioned Horton in his campaign ads, but got all the blame for the it.

It's better known as the Willie Horton issue because Bush's media adviser at the time, Roger Ailes (head honcho at Fox News) had close ties to the group that ran the ad.

In your original post you said "The Willie Horton issue," but the Daily Howler explictly contradicts. If you said, "Gore brought the Mass. prisoner furlough program into the nomination race as fodder against Dukakis," then I would not have disagreed. But the Republican propaganda has been that Gore "brought the world Willie Horton," mostly for the purposes of adding credence to their narrative that Gore would say or do anything to win. Republicans also kept saying that Gore wanted to take credit for inventing the Internet. Sean Hannity and other blowhards piled on: "is the man a pathological liar? No sane person could believe that!"

Regarding the judical filibusters, I ain't sayin' they're right when Reps do them and dirty tricks when dems do them. It's dirty tricks on both sides.

I whole-heartedly agree, but Republicans in the last ten years have gone completely over the edge into the realm of scorched earth politics.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
And to be fair, Novak specifically stated that the info came from two White House sources. He later recanted. Source on his recanting?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Tricky
The FBI has admitted it planted a bug (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/09/mayor.bugged/index.html) in the office of John Street, the Mayor of Philadelphia. Once again we see that the greater leeway given to our government intelligence agencies by this Republican administration has been abused for political purposes. While the FBI says the device...

however, they refuse to comment on what it was for. Street is locked in a tight re-election race with Republican Sam Katz.

Why does it always seem that when these kind of dirty tricks are taking place, it is a Democrat or a liberal who is attacked? From the Watergate burglary to the Pentagon Papers to the smearing of Martin Luther King to the use of Homeland Security to chase down Texas Democrats, the trend is quite clear: Republicans consider nothing beneath them.

Tricky,

C'mon man...you, like every liberal, know the anidote for evil Republican dirty trickery.

Just repeat the immortal words of the Great former Mayor of DC:
"Da bitch set me up!"

:rolleyes:

-z

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Tricky
Won't somebody please comment on the Philadelphia bugging? I know the thread topic was probably misleading and provocative, but I honestly want to know if anyone has any ideas why this happened. It seems like a most egregious breach of ethics but maybe there are some things I don't know about it. Please educate me.

Exactly which ethics were breached?

Questions were raised (rightly so), and the legitimacy of the tap has been established, though without any specifics being released.

The legality of the tap seems to no longer be in question, and of course neither the US Attorney's office nor the FBI should comment on an ongoing investigation. Corruption in a mayoral office is a possibility, and no one, not even a mayor, is above the law.

Tricky, your suspicion and skepticism are warranted, but I think in this instance, what looks like an FBI wire tap as part of a legitimate ongoing investigation, is exactly what it is.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Exactly which ethics were breached?

Questions were raised (rightly so), and the legitimacy of the tap has been established, though without any specifics being released.

Could you go into a little more detail there about the 'legitimacy of the tap ha been established'? Ihaven't been following this too closely. I understand the FBI has acknowledged placing the tap. Is it established that they had a court order to do so? If not, how can you say legitimacy is established when no details of why have been released?

Thanks,

[Luke T.]

So, somehow, the mayor of Philadelphia is so crucial to the reelection of George Bush and the Great Right Wing Conspiracy that GW or some men in dark glasses ordered his office bugged by the FBI. Took a huge risk. Then were stupid enough to cop to it when they didn't have to.

And this isn't woo-woo thinking?

The possibility the mayor is under investigation for criminal activity too boring a reality?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Luke T.

The possibility the mayor is under investigation for criminal activity too boring a reality?
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6976892.htm


Federal authorities have also informed Street he is not a target of an investigation, according to Street.
I believe you need a court order to bug someone, and sufficient evidence to merit that court order.

Discussion of requirements for placing a legal bug: http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/6968380.htm

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Could you go into a little more detail there about the 'legitimacy of the tap ha been established'? Ihaven't been following this too closely. I understand the FBI has acknowledged placing the tap. Is it established that they had a court order to do so? If not, how can you say legitimacy is established when no details of why have been released?

Thanks,

From the link Tricky provided:

"Spokesman Rich Manieri would only say that Street's "status in this matter" has been explained to him.

Police discovered the device in the ceiling above Street's desk during a routine security check and turned it over to the FBI. A senior federal government source and two law enforcement sources told CNN that the FBI planted the device.

Street administration officials have said they are cooperating with two investigations into alleged parking ticket fixing and the awarding of airport contracts."

Do you think for one second that neither the mayor's office, his campaign staff, nor the media at large would not report an FBI tap without a court order if that were indeed the situation??

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Kodiak

Do you think for one second that neither the mayor's office, his campaign staff, nor the media at large would not report an FBI tap without a court order if that were indeed the situation??
Thanks for the info. Sorry, I don't understand your last paragraph.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Thanks for the info. Sorry, I don't understand your last paragraph.

OK...

Let's assume the wire tap is illegal.

Would the mayor's office, his campaign staff, and the media at large all withhold that information from the public??

I don't think so...

[Luke T.]

So according to Street, and not the FBI, Street himself is not under investigation. And a spokesman has said Street's "status" has been explained to him. Some kind of investigation into tickets fixing and airport contracts.

Ho hum.

Explain to me how this ties into the Right Wing Conspiracy again?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Kodiak

OK...

Let's assume the wire tap is illegal.

Would the mayor's office, his campaign staff, and the media at large all withhold that information from the public??

I don't think so...
That makes sense if they were privy to that information.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Source on his recanting?

I'll see if I can dig it up. I heard it on the Glenn Beck Prgogram on the radio (conservative talk show host) To be precise, what he recanted was that they called him. He, allegedly called them and was told by one, though it was not told as a "leak". I mis-typed my earlier statement due to exhaustion. (working nights sucks.)

Again, I'll tryu to dig up the source.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

That makes sense if they were privy to that information.

"Privy"??

Though they rightly would not receive specific info, the fact of a court order is a matter of public record, and as such, any staffer or rookie reporter could obtain it.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Luke T.
So, somehow, the mayor of Philadelphia is so crucial to the reelection of George Bush and the Great Right Wing Conspiracy that GW or some men in dark glasses ordered his office bugged by the FBI. Took a huge risk. Then were stupid enough to cop to it when they didn't have to.

And this isn't woo-woo thinking?

The possibility the mayor is under investigation for criminal activity too boring a reality?
If that is the case, then why not go through the normal methods of investigating this sort of thing? The timing of this seems awfully suspicious. Why won't they tell any details? Did they have a court order? I won't deny that it may be legit, but it sure smells bad. And I want to know why this sort of thing never happens to Republicans. Is it because they never break the law?:rolleyes:

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Tricky

If that is the case, then why not go through the normal methods of investigating this sort of thing? The timing of this seems awfully suspicious. Why won't they tell any details? Did they have a court order? I won't deny that it may be legit, but it sure smells bad. And I want to know why this sort of thing never happens to Republicans. Is it because they never break the law?:rolleyes:

Do you really expect the FBI to go into details of an ongoing investigation? When do they ever do this? More on the story here: (http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=D7U3AJU00_story)
Since the bugging was discovered, Street has denied any knowledge of an investigation and called on the FBI to explain its actions, but he has also drawn criticism from Katz, who said after the debate that he believed "there is substantially more than the mayor has disclosed to the public."

Asked why he had not previously disclosed that agents asked for the BlackBerry, Street said, "Because nobody asked ... I just didn't think about it."

Reports have been swirling for months about investigations into the city's dealings with private companies.

The FBI subpoenaed records from the Philadelphia school district this summer related to the Liberty Academy Charter School, a privately run public school that is scheduled to open next year and was founded by Faridah Ali, the wife of one of Philadelphia's more influential Muslim leaders, Shamsud-din Ali.

A day after the bugs were found in Street's office Tuesday, FBI agents raided the Philadelphia headquarters of a tax-collection business affiliated with Shamsud-din Ali, Keystone Information and Financial Services.

The company was awarded a no-bid contract in 2002 to collect delinquent city real-estate taxes, according to the city controller's office.

FBI spokeswoman Linda Vizi confirmed that agents had conducted searches Wednesday, but refused to say where or why. Court filings related to the searches are sealed, and the FBI has a policy of not confirming or denying when it is investigating something, she said.

There is never investigations of Republicans? Really? (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/091903_ap_ns_ryanscandal.html) You must not keep up w/ the news here in Illinois.
"I'm glad it's over," Roger Stanley told reporters Thursday after U.S. District Judge Charles P. Kocoras sentenced him to about two years in federal prison for paying bribes to get $4 million in government contracts.

But federal prosecutors said it was far from over.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Patrick M. Collins portrayed the husky, silver-haired Stanley as a "middleman" who spread corruption through state government when Ryan was secretary of state and later governor.

But Collins said Stanley eventually began to cooperate with federal investigators and provided information that will lead to fresh charges.

Maybe they're really Democrats disguised as Republicans, yeah that's the ticket! :rolleyes:

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Tricky

If that is the case, then why not go through the normal methods of investigating this sort of thing? The timing of this seems awfully suspicious. Why won't they tell any details? Did they have a court order? I won't deny that it may be legit, but it sure smells bad. And I want to know why this sort of thing never happens to Republicans. Is it because they never break the law?:rolleyes:

Gee, maybe they're just not as infamously corrupt?? Let's check back and see who was netted by DOJ in the past....a little thing called ABSCAM comes to mind:

Sen. Harrison Williams (D-NJ)
Sen. Howard Cannon (D-Nev.),
Rep. Frank Thompson (D-N.J.),
Rep. Michael O. (Ozzie) Myers (D-Pa.),
Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.),
Rep. John Murphy (D-N.Y.),
Rep. Richard Kelly (R) of Florida
New Jersey State Senator Angelo Errichetti (D)

:rolleyes:

When it comes to participation in DOJ stings,...the dems seem to have the edge in experience.

-z

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Gee, maybe they're just not as infamously corrupt?? Let's check back and see who was netted by DOJ in the past....a little thing called ABSCAM comes to mind:

Sen. Harrison Williams (D-NJ)
Sen. Howard Cannon (D-Nev.),
Rep. Frank Thompson (D-N.J.),
Rep. Michael O. (Ozzie) Myers (D-Pa.),
Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.),
Rep. John Murphy (D-N.Y.),
Rep. Richard Kelly (R) of Florida
New Jersey State Senator Angelo Errichetti (D)

:rolleyes:

When it comes to participation in DOJ stings,...the dems seem to have the edge in experience.




-z

That reminds me...

Didn't the Lincoln Savings $ Loan scandal primarily involve a bunch of Dems, among them Michigan Senator Don Riegle??

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Kodiak


That reminds me...

Didn't the Lincoln Savings $ Loan scandal primarily involve a bunch of Dems, among them Michigan Senator Don Riegle??

Bahhh! That was a right-wing conspiracy Kodiak!

...as per the Liberal Counterattack (http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/abscam.htm)

Apparently after ABSCAM the liberal dems were crying the same sad song they've been singing in this thread!

-z

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Tricky

If that is the case, then why not go through the normal methods of investigating this sort of thing? The timing of this seems awfully suspicious. Why won't they tell any details? Did they have a court order? I won't deny that it may be legit, but it sure smells bad. And I want to know why this sort of thing never happens to Republicans. Is it because they never break the law?:rolleyes:

Tricky, you seem to be guilty of the same sort of thinking, except in reverse. Can a Democrat do no wrong?

Rather than go with the more rational possibility that a Democratic mayor's office may be up to no good and therefore warrant an investigation by the FBI, you roll into some conspiracy theory with no rational support behind it. You plug it into the larger conspiracy of Californian elections, Texan gerrymandering, and whatever else sounds good, to create a giant invisible hobgoblin that collapses upon examination of any of its elements.

And having a court order for the bugs is not sensational news, and in fact would undermine the conspiracy theory you have swallowed. The real news would be that there was no court order and you would see it blazed across the headlines so the conspiracy theory could be fed even more.

If the papers are a little slow reporting the non-sensational, but now very important, news of the existence of a court order, it makes me question their own motives/bias. Not that they necessarily are closet liberal democrats, but that they enjoy feeding people's sensations during a tough election bout.

Good ol' Philly.

[Tricky]

Okay. I was wrong. I overreacted to a bit of recent news. It is not a real big deal (although still a bit disturbing). Democrats are just as bad as Republicans. Scumbrothers, if I may coin a term.

You may begin flagellation now. Thank you sir, may I have another?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Tricky
Okay. I was wrong. I overreacted to a bit of recent news. It is not a real big deal (although still a bit disturbing). Democrats are just as bad as Republicans. Scumbrothers, if I may coin a term.

You may begin flagellation now. Thank you sir, may I have another?

Whew! I was beginning to worry. This was a most un-Tricky topic. You weren't up to your usual unassailably logical self today.

Hey. If I were a Right Wing Conspirator, I would have done everything possible to prevent the recall vote in California from happening. Governor Davis is too convenient a target. His ineptness could have been very well exploited during the 2004 presidential election. California has the most electoral votes.

Now, the Republicans are going to have to settle for attacking the Democratic legislature in California. Doesn't have quite the same laser-beam focus of a single person target.

And if Arnold doesn't accomplish much, which he probably won't surrounded as he is by a sea of Democrats, a lot of the sting goes out of the attack.

These Right Wing Conspirators just aren't up to snuff like in the Good Old Days.....

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Now, the Republicans are going to have to settle for attacking the Democratic legislature in California. Doesn't have quite the same laser-beam focus of a single person target.

And if Arnold doesn't accomplish much, which he probably won't surrounded as he is by a sea of Democrats, a lot of the sting goes out of the attack.

There's something to be said for gridlock... :)

[Scott]

I whole-heartedly agree, but Republicans in the last ten years have gone completely over the edge into the realm of scorched earth politics.

Completely over the edge?

What would you constitute as over the edge? The "Daisy" ad Johnson ran against Goldwater, was that over the edge?

[aerocontrols]

Philadelphia Mayor's Bank Records Sought, Report Says


story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46949-2003Oct18.html)

The mayor, who is running for reelection, refused to confirm or deny the report at a campaign event Saturday but complained about information being leaked to the news media that he said is "undermining the electoral process in this city."

"I ought to be able to make my case without having to speak over all this background noise," he said.

Isn't the mayor the person who brought this investigation to the media's attention before the elections? It seems to me that if you don't want the media reporting the investigation, you shouldn't tell them about it, or go on national television and point it out to the world. Also, you shouldn't get your buddy, the governor, to demand that the FBI explain themselves.

poor fella.

MattJ

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Scott
Novak specifically stated that the info came from two White House sources.

From Novak's July 14, 2003 article that started that whole affair...

"Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report."

Ya know, I always thought the "administration" contained agencies like CIA, FBI, etc. -- the cabinet -- all that bunch.

Had he said "white house" that would have nailed it. Do you think Novak knows the difference? I think so.

[Scott]

One of the things that has me curious is if Wilson himself wound have been considered a "senior administration official" during this time.

Watching interviews with this guy, it wouldn't surprise me that if Novak talked to Wilson, and asked him how he got the job, Wilson tells him his wife set it up for him. Novak then simply reports that.