Anyone ever talked to a witch/wizard?

[Gene L]

I did on several occasions. One was a witch, who was a hopless girl who went to Bryn Mawr, a feminist who felt the way to gain quick power was through a religion that featured mostly women. (I assume Wicca is mostly about women?) She was a lesbian for political reason, and a witch for political reasons, and attended college in a place dominated by women who also are apparently seeking power, although she complained that not enough Bryn Mawr women were into Wicca.

Anyway, she's a nice kid, and I hope she put that expensive education to use in something other than spell-casting for power.

The second one was long before the Bryn Mawr girl, and it was during the course of an police investigation. Apparently the Grand Wizard of the local coven had been getting messages on his answer machine making threats against his life. These were from a former member of the cult. He allowed us to listen to the messages phone in and recorded, which were from all over the place and very strange, using some coded message I didn't understand, but which were not threatening, according to the Grand Wizard. Why he didn't perform a counter-curse and cause the guy making threats to break out with some horrid skin disease, I never asked. He also gave us some basic Wiccan stuff so we'd understand what exactly was going on. No threats were made we heard, so the case was dropped.

Third time, this guy wasn't didn't claim to be a Wiccan type, but was instead a Wizard of Satan; a Satan Worshipper. If he was associated with any named cult, I don't know the name of it. Seems he was a freelance worshiper of the Dark Lord.

This was in 1999, I think, around there. Satan's Wizard burned two churches down on New Year's eve, one in my jurisdiction and one fairly nearby. The one nearby caused the death of a fireman, which kicked it up a bunch of notches in law enforcement, because it became a murder case.

This was a time many of you remember when a lot of churches were being burned, and the blame went to the KKK because a lot of the churches had black congregations, and especially the ones that got the press because the black community thought they were being targeted. This feeling was enhanced by the press underreporting white-attended churches that were being burned. The two near me were white attended churches.

The guy's MO was to break out a back window and hurl a container of gasoline thru it, then run. Sadly for him, in Indiana (I think) he hurled the gas through, and it hit a lit gas hot water heater, blowing back on him and searing his balls rather crisply. OUCH!

In the interview, (which I had no part of, but had access to the transcripts) the guy said he worshipped Satan, had chosen churches pretty much at random and with no regard to the congregation. The ones he picked were ones in the country so he could get away with it, and he burned them (along with his girlfriend, who was a stripper in nearby Athens, GA) to get "power" from Satan.

He didn't know how many he'd burned, but it was "in the hundreds." That may be an exaggeration, I don't know. Over a period of years it's possible, I guess.

Anyway, he was found guilty in Federal Court, and is currently serviing time and nursing his ruined genetilia, so far as I know.

While they might not seem related, thse three examples, all (to my mind) show a destructive weakness in the human nature of some people. These all were people with limited personal power (normal power/status for their jobs, but they must have felt like it wasn't enough) who looked to the supernatural to gain it instantly. Unreasonable supernatural expectations, but probably in the first two, a bunch of contemporaries who fed them what the wanted to hear.

[Gr8wight]

The answer to the question posed in your subject line is, of course, "no." No one has ever talked to a witch/wizard.

You may have spoken to people who referred to themselves as a witch or a wizard, but naming a horse 'Pegasus' won't make it fly.

[Salerio]

I met a witch not long after I'd left university. I picked up a hitch-hiker and as we were driving down the A38 chatting she told me she was a witch. I laughed at that and said "don't be daft, there's no such thing as witches".

Well with that she put her hand on my thigh and I turned into a layby

[Madalch]

These all were people with limited personal power ... who looked to the supernatural to gain it instantly. Unreasonable supernatural expectations, but probably in the first two, a bunch of contemporaries who fed them what the wanted to hear.

When I was in high school, I wanted to be a wizard for exactly those reasons. Mundane life was dull, and I was a nerdy little kid who was tired of being bullied.

[Kilgore Trout]

There are all kinds, I suppose. A friend of mine is Wiccan (well, I haven't spoken to her in ages) but she was actually very laid back about it all. I think she just wanted spirituality and some sort of religion, but far from other mainstream religions. She was sort of the Easter/Christmas-church-goer of Wiccans.

[Gene L]

The answer to the question posed in your subject line is, of course, "no." No one has ever talked to a witch/wizard.

You may have spoken to people who referred to themselves as a witch or a wizard, but naming a horse 'Pegasus' won't make it fly.

Wow...what do you expect of a witch? Flying? Turning people into toads? Being a witch doesn't mean the witch can fly, and a horse named Pegasus is still a horse.

No claims were made to flight.

[FM21.105]

Wow...what do you expect of a witch? Flying? Turning people into toads? Being a witch doesn't mean the witch can fly, and a horse named Pegasus is still a horse.

No claims were made to flight.

Witches are generally accepted to being able to do some sort of supernatural powers...Could your friends to these? If so, would you like James Randi's email so you can get a cool million from him?

[PastBrowneFan]

I've talked to Sylvia Browne.

Oh wait, that was "witch" with a "w'.

Sorry.

[Soapy Sam]

I've seen a horsefly.
Hell, I've seen a house fly.

[Gene L]

Witches are generally accepted to being able to do some sort of supernatural powers...Could your friends to these? If so, would you like James Randi's email so you can get a cool million from him?

Ah...so you believe there ARE supernatural powers, and those who possess these are witches? You have reserved the right to determine what a witch is? Generally accepted by whom to have supernatural powers? I know for a fact that none of the people I mentioned had supernatural powers. One with supernatural powers doesn't get his balls fried.

Yours is a lame argument, since one has to believe in supernatural powers to accept your view. Since I don't think there are supernatural powers, I don't generally accept that anyone has them, whatever they call themselves.

Mr. Randi's money is safe for the time. I think you should review your argument, since by adopting it, one must then believe there are no such things as Christians, Buddists, Jews, and Muslims.

When any fool knows there are.

[ksbluesfan]

I worked with a couple who were Wiccans. They were nice enough. They probably tried to cast spells against people they didn't like, but more than anything, they sat around naked smoking pot. They probably became Wiccans to upset their parents.

[Lanzy]

I've talked to witches. and Republicans. And Christians and all manner of people. Why would I tell them what they are or are not? Everyone has the right to self-identify who and what they are in any way they see fit. IMO of course. None of these or others imply super powers of any kind. Those that do claim powers to me, have never actually demonstrated them, but they were still interesting folk.

[Dancing David]

Wow...what do you expect of a witch? Flying? Turning people into toads? Being a witch doesn't mean the witch can fly, and a horse named Pegasus is still a horse.

No claims were made to flight.

I saw a witch fly on a number of occasion, of course I used an airplane.

Some people do think thay can do that sort of thing without an airplane, but then they like to play astral tag as well.

I am a witch and a sceptic, which makes a lot of witches very unhappy. It makes sceptics crazy. ;)

[Dancing David]

Witches are generally accepted to being able to do some sort of supernatural powers...Could your friends to these? If so, would you like James Randi's email so you can get a cool million from him?

OMG, so there is stupid common belief, WOW!

[FM21.105]

Ah...so you believe there ARE supernatural powers, and those who possess these are witches?

I'm sorry? Where did I say that? Allow me to clarify. If you ask the common person what a witch is, they would say someone who could cast spells, or fly, or something of that sort of nature. That would be a supernatural power, do you not agree?

You have reserved the right to determine what a witch is?

Once again, I said no such thing. In fact, I said "It's commonly accepted"

Generally accepted by whom to have supernatural powers? I know for a fact that none of the people I mentioned had supernatural powers. One with supernatural powers doesn't get his balls fried.

The way you presented your OP made it appear that you believed these people could perform some sort of super powers.


Yours is a lame argument, since one has to believe in supernatural powers to accept your view.

Absolutely not. The common definition (Pay attention that that, as you'll once again try to claim that I'm saying I am setting definitions here) of a god is one who is omnipotent, omniscient, etc. That's the average view of what a god is, and I'm an atheist. I do not believe a being has such powers, but I believe that if one existed, it would have such powers. Understand?

Since I don't think there are supernatural powers, I don't generally accept that anyone has them, whatever they call themselves.

Ah! Something we agree on!

Mr. Randi's money is safe for the time. I think you should review your argument, since by adopting it, one must then believe there are no such things as Christians, Buddists, Jews, and Muslims.


The last part of your sentense does not make sense. Please explain.

Also, what is your definition of a witch? I went here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Awitch&btnG=Google+Search) and a majority of the definitions state "a practitioner of witchcraft" or "one who does supernatural powers." In all fairness, it also states "A follower of Wicca." Perhaps this is what you mean?

[Gene L]

Commonly accepted that witches have supernatural powers? No. I thought it was commonly accepted that there is no such thing as supernatural powers. Therefore, no one has them. Not even witches.

That's the average view of what a god is, and I'm an atheist. I do not believe a being has such powers, but I believe that if one existed, it would have such powers. Understand?

I'm afraid I don't. I dont' think you logically can assign supernatural powers to a god when you don't believe either god or supernatural powers exists. That's like saying, "I don't believe in space aliens, but if they did exist, they'd be small and green." It's a conclusion which has no logical basis.

Anyway, if any Being had these powers, they would not be "supernatural".

The last part of your sentense does not make sense. Please explain.

Sure...you don't believe in god, but this doesn't mean that others do and indentify themselves in accordance to the god they believe in. And while they may not have the power of creation, this doesn't change their self-identity.

[porch]

I quite like the work of the art duo known as FASTWURMS. I would be interested in talking with them, but the best I've gotten so far is to read an interview with them. They identify themselves as pagans and witches. In case you doubt what they say, they even dress up in black capes and wear black pointy hats! I don't know that they've ever claimed to have supernatural powers, but some of their creations are pretty spellbinding.

[Gene L]

The witches and wizards I have known never claimed any supernatural powers, they just sought the supernatural to gain plain, regular power. Like success, that sort of thing. Not counting the Wizard with the shrivelled nuts, don't know what kind of power he was going for.

I imperfectly stated a point above when I said: "Anyway, if any Being had these powers, they would not be "supernatural". I should have said "................powers, these powers would no longer be supernatural."

Kinda like the 4-minute mile barrier. Until it was broken, "it was commonly held" that no one could run that fast!:D And if a human ever broke the 2-minute mile mark, science would explain how this came about. No longer supernatural ("above natural" after all the ghosts and goblins the term implies, after all.)

[RSLancastr]

My ex-wife is a witch.

Or was, anyway. I don't know if she is still a Wiccan, but she was at the time we divorced.

She was a Catholic when we married, but some twenty years later, she became a Wiccan. When she told me, she was surprised that I wasn't bothered by it. She said "You don't think it's weird?" to which I replied "No weirder than Catholicism."

[Metullus]

I was acquainted with the rather flamboyant "witch" Sybil Leek. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_Leek)

She was all red hair and purple robes and she never traveled anywhere with her "familiar", a Boa Constrictor whose name I forget. She was way over the top but a hoot to talk with...

[blauregen]

I am a witch and a sceptic, which makes a lot of witches very unhappy. It makes sceptics crazy. ;)

If you define witchcraft as a spiritual discipline, it should fit in nicely with a sceptic mindset. If i remember correctly Crowley (a somewhat weird 20th century occultist, for the more wordly oriented ) always emphasized an essentially sceptic attitude in dealing with spiritual matters.

As for the cases cited above. You get nutters in every ideology or religion. Most witches i know are quite down-to-earth ( at least the ones over thirty years old ).

[FM21.105]

Commonly accepted that witches have supernatural powers? No. I thought it was commonly accepted that there is no such thing as supernatural powers. Therefore, no one has them. Not even witches.


Here, yes. Worldwide, no. Which is my point. I live outside the internet...That's been my point the entire time...

[Gene L]

What if you define (name any religion) as a "spiritual discipline" does it then fit nicely with a skeptic mindset? I'm skeptical of that, really. Wicca is what it is, which is faith-based, which is the opposite from skepticism, as I understand faith-based philosophies and skepticism.

Wicca is what it is, and redefining it to fit a definition a jour won't make the cut. Any belief, religion, or philosophy that requires people to wear funny clothes kinda kicks reason out the door.

And, FM2.105, I posted this here and not on YouTube. It was meant for a skeptical audience. Sorry, but I still don't see your point.

[Dogdoctor]

I have met people who claimed to be witches and warlocks. Some Wiccan and some self proclaimed as far as I knew. I doubt they were up to much evil.

[blauregen]

What if you define (name any religion) as a "spiritual discipline" does it then fit nicely with a skeptic mindset? I'm skeptical of that, really. Wicca is what it is, which is faith-based, which is the opposite from skepticism, as I understand faith-based philosophies and skepticism.

Wicca is what it is, and redefining it to fit a definition a jour won't make the cut. Any belief, religion, or philosophy that requires people to wear funny clothes kinda kicks reason out the door.


Yes and no. Dancing David claimed to be a witch, not necessarily a wiccan, which would be a religious denomination. Witchcraft as i understood it is a variety of magical practice, which can be understood as a delusion ( for example believing in your ability to cast harmful or beneficial spells which work through supernatural forces ) or as a spiritual discipline. The latter case would likely among other things encompass exercises in concentration, visualisation, developing rituals to achieve defined emotional states and so on.

Funny clothing in religion likely has a similar purpose as funny clothing in the military has. To signify affiliation to a community.

[Fnord]

Anyone ever talked to a witch/wizard?


Not a "real" one, of course. But my cousin is a self-professed witch. She taught me how to do cold readings in numerology and with tarot cards. She also sold the usual wooist fru-fru; like crystals, dream catchers, elixers, et cetera.

She believed in that stuff, too. She also believed that by teaching me the "base" arts (flim-flam, fast-talk, and confidence games), the "real" spiritual connection would eventually occur, and I would become as powerful as she.

No ... her name is not "Sylvia" ...

[Bikewer]

We had friends who were rather heavily into Wicca. They seemed to take it fairly seriously; had ceremonies and the like.
Seemed primarily geared to be an excuse to dress up funny (they didn't do the "sky-clad" thing), play with swords and daggers, burn candles, and smoke dope.

[Gene L]

I have met people who claimed to be witches and warlocks. Some Wiccan and some self proclaimed as far as I knew. I doubt they were up to much evil.

I'm not aware of any qualification process to become a witch, or a Christian for that matter. I think it's simply a matter of a declaration of faith, (or whatever other euphenism Wiccans call belief in their superstitions) but I will certainly entertain any other opinion, as I know about as much about Wicca as I know about Catholicism. Which is not much.

Any belief that a witch or wizard must have supernatural powers in order to be a witch acknowledges there is such a thing, and is, well....weird. And not in a Biblical sense. :D

[Gene L]

Not a "real" one, of course. But my cousin is a self-professed witch. She taught me how to do cold readings in numerology and with tarot cards. She also sold the usual wooist fru-fru; like crystals, dream catchers, elixers, et cetera.
...

Fnord, what is a "real" witch? I'm going to consult with my Tarot cards to find out!

[Tricky]

Every day. My wife is Wiccan.

She casts spells, but they are really just kind of asking the universe to be good and kind. It is really the equivalent of prayer. Since we've been married, she's pulled back from the seriously wierd stuff, but she still likes to go to Pagan campounts and run around with all the naked people. I'm kind of fond of that part myself, though out of consideration for others, I don't get sky-clad.

[Frankenstyle]

she still likes to go to Pagan campouts and run around with all the naked people.

Ha, funny you should say that. When I read the OP my first thought was, "I've met quite a few "Wiccans". They throw great week long clothing optional parties, but trying to talk to them is only tolerable when ridiculously drunk".

In light of that though, I have to exclude myself from being considered a reliable witness regarding my own experiences with them.

[Rocko]

I met a witch not long after I'd left university. I picked up a hitch-hiker and as we were driving down the A38 chatting she told me she was a witch. I laughed at that and said "don't be daft, there's no such thing as witches".

Well with that she put her hand on my thigh and I turned into a layby

C'mon folks, this didn't get the response it deserved :)

[RSLancastr]

Probably plays better in the UK.

[Hawthorne]

I knew a "witch"/Wiccan in college - she had hair down to her knees, but she was really nice and I went to her "handfasting"/marriage. We all went up to a state park in the mountains, hiked to this little glade and they got married by some Wiccan priestess, then we all ate little cakes and had champagne...it was rather nice actually. She said all of her spells were just for healing and protection, I always viewed them as just being really involved and stylized prayers.

[Dancing David]

If you define witchcraft as a spiritual discipline, it should fit in nicely with a sceptic mindset. If i remember correctly Crowley (a somewhat weird 20th century occultist, for the more wordly oriented ) always emphasized an essentially sceptic attitude in dealing with spiritual matters.

You mean the Crowley in my signature?


As for the cases cited above. You get nutters in every ideology or religion. Most witches i know are quite down-to-earth ( at least the ones over thirty years old ).

Really, you are lucky, maybe it is an age thing but many are just plain nuts, like me.

[Dancing David]

I'm not aware of any qualification process to become a witch, or a Christian for that matter. I think it's simply a matter of a declaration of faith, (or whatever other euphenism Wiccans call belief in their superstitions) but I will certainly entertain any other opinion, as I know about as much about Wicca as I know about Catholicism. Which is not much.

Any belief that a witch or wizard must have supernatural powers in order to be a witch acknowledges there is such a thing, and is, well....weird. And not in a Biblical sense. :D

hey man you just recite the lord's prayer backwards and kiss the devils butt, rather straight forward.

It is a real funny thing in the pagan community who is a real witch and who isn't.

[Dancing David]

We had friends who were rather heavily into Wicca. They seemed to take it fairly seriously; had ceremonies and the like.
Seemed primarily geared to be an excuse to dress up funny (they didn't do the "sky-clad" thing), play with swords and daggers, burn candles, and smoke dope.

Thats not smoking dope, its taking communion.

"There is no part of me that is not part of some god...cough...blessed beep..."

[Dancing David]

Yes and no. Dancing David claimed to be a witch, not necessarily a wiccan,

yes I am an annointed wiccan, I usually use it to annoy other wiccans, I am also a buddhist and a nihilist, and a husband, a parent...etc...

I really like butterfly gardens as well.

which would be a religious denomination.

Yeah for disorganised religion, although i have been known to set scripts on fire, psychodram should not have rsutling papers.

Witchcraft as i understood it is a variety of magical practice, which can be understood as a delusion ( for example believing in your ability to cast harmful or beneficial spells which work through supernatural forces ) or as a spiritual discipline. The latter case would likely among other things encompass exercises in concentration, visualisation, developing rituals to achieve defined emotional states and so on.

Funny clothing in religion likely has a similar purpose as funny clothing in the military has. To signify affiliation to a community.

Truly it is part of the insulation of the mundane and spiritual worlds... you can tell the weak minded when they interpret the world as though they are the center of the universe.

[Dancing David]

I've seen a horsefly.
Hell, I've seen a house fly.


But I done seen about everything, when I see an elephant fly...

[fuelair]

:DI met a witch not long after I'd left university. I picked up a hitch-hiker and as we were driving down the A38 chatting she told me she was a witch. I laughed at that and said "don't be daft, there's no such thing as witches".

Well with that she put her hand on my thigh and I turned into a layby
:D

[Gene L]

It seems to me that Wicca, like most religions, is an attempt to understand the physical world and perhaps in some way harness its powers to gain an advantage? A.K.A. "power".

Usually this power is gained through taking advantage of other humans, such as requiring them to tithe, to acknowledge in some way the power of the belief that is personified by the Priest, the Grand Wizard, whatever. It may involve sex, frequently does, since sex is probably the strongest human incentive that's the cheapest to get. Political power and wealth are stronger, perhaps, but not so easily gained as having sex with a number of people under the cloak of a belief. Heck, even slack-jawed bogger-eating farmboys can marry a dozen wives and impregnate children in Texas, so long as they maintin the power over the women to shut up.

Trappings in the form of ceremony and special clothing are important to maintain power. Wiccans aren't the only ones who dress like they're refugees from a Renisance Festival. Look at the hierarchy of the Catholic church, for example.

I know Christians gave up long ago on trying to make it rain, because they couldn't, and failure definitely is a turn-off to belief. I assume Wiccans do the same when they commume with nature. Nature is the one of the forces no belief can command, so it's likey the watch the Weather Channel and dance around trees and generally are quite happy.

Myself, I don't oppose any religion that doesn't exploit others without their consent. The outlawed LDS sect in Texas does, but most other religions do not. One thing I've observed, however, is if your religion of choice involves having sex with someone you wouldn't ordinarily have sex with and/or where children are involved as part of that relgion, it's probably time to pack your spiritual tent.

[KateHL]

I looked into joining the local atheist society in my area and discovered it was full of ... Wiccans. No, thank you. Also, get your own club. :(

[Tricky]

It seems to me that Wicca, like most religions, is an attempt to understand the physical world and perhaps in some way harness its powers to gain an advantage? A.K.A. "power".
For serious Wiccans, that's really it. Their "magick" is a cry to the universe to give them power. Like Christians and their prayers, many use data fitting to help them believe it works. They ignore failures. But as Kate points out, many many pagans aren't really serious about it. They are, for all intents and purposes, atheists. They like the symbology and the historicity, and of course, the wild parties. A surprisingly large number of them are techno-freaks. Almost all of them strongly support the teaching of science and the natural origin of the universe. They will plainly state that their legends are metaphors.

On the down side, Pagans are some of the most goggle-eyed woos you will ever meet. There is not a new-age belief or product that you cannot find in the vendor booths at a Pagan campout. Crystals and candles are big sellers. If it smells good or looks cool, Pagans will imbue it with "power".

I know Christians gave up long ago on trying to make it rain, because they couldn't, and failure definitely is a turn-off to belief. I assume Wiccans do the same when they commume with nature. Nature is the one of the forces no belief can command, so it's likey the watch the Weather Channel and dance around trees and generally are quite happy.
Interesting you mention this, because I asked this very question to a Pagan at one of the campouts that was threatening rain. Her answer (totally deadpan) was that it was immoral to control the weather. You might cause flooding somewhere else if you made the clouds hold their water. But it is true that Pagans are pretty accepting of whatever nature sends.

Myself, I don't oppose any religion that doesn't exploit others without their consent. The outlawed LDS sect in Texas does, but most other religions do not. One thing I've observed, however, is if your religion of choice involves having sex with someone you wouldn't ordinarily have sex with and/or where children are involved as part of that relgion, it's probably time to pack your spiritual tent.
I'm not sure if "oppose" is the word I would use. I certainly am not trying to remove anyone's freedom to worship they way they like, least of all Pagans, whose central tenet is "harm none". At the same time I do have a tendency to make myself unwelcome when the discussion turns to woo. Ms. Tricky was a little annoyed with me when I showed her the references that showed that "aura photography" was not paranormal and "ear candling" was an outright fake. I think that all paranormal beliefs incur a certain measure of risk. I don't want anyone I love getting ill because they chose "alternative medicine" over real treatment. Pagans are real bad about that.

[blauregen]

You mean the Crowley in my signature?


Yep, the same one.


Really, you are lucky, maybe it is an age thing but many are just plain nuts, like me.

Now we have to define Nuts. The ones i know hold pretty mundane jobs,live in normal apartments and houses,raise reasonably well adjusted children, only dress silly for LARPS or ceremonial occasions, approach mundane problems like a blocked drain like most other people do, visit general practicioners for more serious ailments and prefer cars or public transport over broomsticks for long distance travel.

I might disagree with them over philosophical matters like the fundamental principles of the universe, but i don't see those as having a large influence on their everyday life.

[arthwollipot]

I did the neopagan thing for a while. I cast runic "spells" and read the Tarot. I never considered what I did to be spellcasting, and I never referred to myself as a "wizard". But some of the things I did made some people feel better and happier about themselves.

When you do something specific, symbolic, and ritual for someone else, you are basically acting as a placebo. I once carved a rune of protection for someone who was feeling depressed and paranoid. It took me most of a day to do. She was grateful, and she said that carrying it made her feel better about herself. It's just like any prayer or ritual. It has no concrete effect, but it makes people feel better. These days I no longer do stuff like that, because I don't feel comfortable about, essentially, lying to people to make them feel better.

I still read Tarot, occasionally, but I make it clear that I put no supernatural worth in the cards. The images on the cards are intended to provoke psychological associations in the mind of the readee by means of random stimulus. Sort of like a guided word-association.

[blauregen]

I still read Tarot, occasionally, but I make it clear that I put no supernatural worth in the cards. The images on the cards are intended to provoke psychological associations in the mind of the readee by means of random stimulus. Sort of like a guided word-association.

I try to stay artfully noncommited. If you work in someones system of belief by giving them a talisman, by using the imagery of forces and energy of any kind or by building associations, discarding said belief isn't necessarily a smart move if you want results.

Placebo - as i understand them - tend to work because they are taken for the real thing.

[Mikeuk]

When I was at University in the seventies there was a lecture given in the Students Union by a self-styled white witch. One of her claims was that during WW2 a number of covens gathered along the South Coast of England and put up some kind of force that stopped the German Army from invading.

It obviously worked :gasp:

[EssenceOfMagic]

I regularly speak with Albus Dumbledore :)

[rats]

Placebo - as i understand them - tend to work because they are taken for the real thing.
That may not actually be true. A study from 1965 had doctors offering placebo pills, explain completely they were simply sugar pills, and had a positive effect! See this Bad Science article (http://www.badscience.net/?p=620) for a more in depth discussion, and a link to the original paper (http://www.leecrandallparkmd.net/researchpages/placebo1.html).

Back to the OP... I haven't knowingly met a pagan, wiccan, or wizard, but have spoken with several unhappy people with low self esteem attempt to make themselves appear more special by claiming to have magical powers of various sorts. I'm not sure that's the same as wishing for more power.

[Gene L]

Placebos are used in testing drugs, and are given for "the real thing." They are to make sure the drug perscribed is working. The word is the people receiving the drug think it's a drug, not a sugar pill.

I posted this earlier, and I think in another thread, but about 2-3% of people respond to ANY treatment for some reason that's currently unknown. I was told this by an oncologist, don't know if it's true.

I don't think placebos actually cure diseases, but they can sometimes cause a response.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I'm an astronaut.

I know what you are thinking, but who are you to say that astronauts have to go into space and stuff? That's just a silly popular misconception. Real astronauts sit at home and pretend. It's very spiritual.

[Ocelot]

I know a witch, He's been a follower of the pagan/wiccan religion for as long as I've known him whihc is hmm hmm (take of shoes and socks) blimey 17 years. He has an alter, meets others in a sacred circle, summons spirits and casts spells. He calls himself a witch and he fits every description of the word that I know.

Saying that he can't be a witch because I don't believe that his spells work is rather like denying that christian is truly a christian because their prayers don't get answered.

[Gene L]

I'm an astronaut.

I know what you are thinking, but who are you to say that astronauts have to go into space and stuff? That's just a silly popular misconception. Real astronauts sit at home and pretend. It's very spiritual.

A difference is an astronaut goes through a training regimen and being an astronaut is not a self-defined position. So, any claims to be an astronaut to be taken seriously must be viewed in this light.

Being a witch is a faith-based concept, and requires only belief to be qualified. Stating this belief by self-definition is generally all that's required.

One can call himself a carpenter, but to be considered a carpenter by others, must demonstrate certain skills. Like astronauts, doctors, and lawyers, the claim is entirely related to training/education.

However, no skills at all are associated with being a witch, just a proclamation of faith. Same with a Christian, a Buddist, or a Jew.

A witch cannot be held to be a witch only if he or she demonstrates occult skills, because occult skills do not exist. Does this mean witches do not exist? Hardly.

[Jimbo07]

Being a witch is a faith-based concept, and requires only belief to be qualified. Stating this belief by self-definition is generally all that's required.

...

A witch cannot be held to be a witch only if he or she demonstrates occult skills, because occult skills do not exist. Does this mean witches do not exist? Hardly.

I'd argue that this is backwards. For a long time (and even currently in parts of the world), witchcraft has been a charge or imposed definition against, someone presumably for demonstration of supernatural powers (or sometimes just for spite :().

The modern idea of self-identifying as a witch, to belong to a non-patriarchal religious group seems to be a co-opting of the term...

[Gene L]

I'd argue that this is backwards. For a long time (and even currently in parts of the world), witchcraft has been a charge or imposed definition against, someone presumably for demonstration of supernatural powers (or sometimes just for spite :().

The modern idea of self-identifying as a witch, to belong to a non-patriarchal religious group seems to be a co-opting of the term...

While I agree that witch has been used against people, so has Jew, Christian, Muslim, Protestant and so on at different times throughout the world. So witches do not have a sole claim to persecution.

I'm not sure how it being a negative term (historically or currently) addresses the main issue of witches existing. Patriarchial? Non-patriarchial? That's an argument for another subject and for another thread, and is only a matter of detail, not substance.

Anyone who does not believe that witches exist ignores the fact that witches do, in fact exist. Anyone who believes witches have supernatural powers holds an opinion that is way out in left field and antil-logical. And those who do put a supernatural requirement on witches apparently believe there is such a thing as supernatural powers. Nope.

I'm not at all receptive to that belief. Wicca is another faith-based belief that shares the same roots as other faith-based beliefs. Any difference is in the fine print.

[Kevin_Lowe]

A difference is an astronaut goes through a training regimen and being an astronaut is not a self-defined position. So, any claims to be an astronaut to be taken seriously must be viewed in this light.

Being a witch is a faith-based concept, and requires only belief to be qualified. Stating this belief by self-definition is generally all that's required.

One can call himself a carpenter, but to be considered a carpenter by others, must demonstrate certain skills. Like astronauts, doctors, and lawyers, the claim is entirely related to training/education.

However, no skills at all are associated with being a witch, just a proclamation of faith. Same with a Christian, a Buddist, or a Jew.

A witch cannot be held to be a witch only if he or she demonstrates occult skills, because occult skills do not exist. Does this mean witches do not exist? Hardly.

That's exactly the position I was mocking.

Calling a pony a unicorn doesn't make it a unicorn, and it doesn't make "unicorn" mean "pony" either.

Witches in the sense of people with occult skills definitely do not exist. There are idiots who think that they are witches, and idiots who think it's awesome to call themselves witches, but I find both types of "witch" humourous. They aren't witches though, except in some specialised and self-serving sense of the word that they made up, any more than a pony is a unicorn because the owner says it is.