Interesting comparison of motorcycle licensing procedures in other countries...

[Andonyx]

The forums at Motorcycle.com are discussing the practicality and impact of graduated licensing procedures on fatalities and riders in general. (In the US generally you only have to pass a small written test for the learner's permit, and then a short road test of low-moderate difficulty to obtain a motorcycle license. In other countries you have to be riding at low engine sizes for some time before graduating to larger engines.)

It's interesting to note the discussion from the rider's perspective, many many of whom are for stricter licensing procedures, as many feel that idiots who haul off half cocked on a litre sport bike and end up a splotch 3 hours after purchasing the thing make riding less safe for everyone, and contribute to the bad stigma some motorcyclists must endure.

On that board the vast majority of folks are riders, I'm just guessing that by sheer statistics the vast majority here are not. Just curious what you guys think as non-riders, heres the page:

http://news.motorcycle.com/article.motml?sid=2438

and here is the initial post that began the discussion:


Mollygrubber writes "After another summer of squid hamburger all over wester Canada's roads, I have come to think that we (Canada at least) should adopt a Japanese type licensing model. By this, I mean that new riders should be restricted to small displacement machines for a certain length of time. I mean, come on, if you have the cash you can buy ANYTHING in the showroom and ride it home with zero road experience, just a writen test which a monkey (or most Torontonians) could pass. Note that this is coming from a rider in BC, I'm not sure of the regs in other provinces, but I'm pretty sure they are similar.
It's absolutelyinsane. Do newbs really need a 175mph 'learner'? The dealerships should know better IMHO."

I personally disagree that dealerships should know better. It's not their place to police their clientele, if regulations are passed so be it...but were I a sales guy, I'm not going to tell a customer I know nothing about that he's not ready for a certain bike because I think he's not ready.

[Cleon]

Well, I've only been riding for a few years. I was fortunate to have been turned on to BMWs, where the community is small and very supportive.

My first bike, which is still my only, is a 1999 BMW R1100GS - a 1.1 liter (or "litre" <g>) engine. Was it too much for me, as a beginning rider? Yeah, no doubt. But I did make do and eventually was able to figure out the rule of "wheels under, rider over."

I think, in hindsight, that the European rules do make sense; force beginners to accomodate their own limitations until they're more comfortable riding. It's a very American thing, I think, to puff up your chest and pretend you can handle more than you can't. (Insert Dubya joke here.) But the reality is, when you just learn, you can't handle a Honda Goldwing.

[roger]

That's interesting, I hadn't thought of it.

I started out on a 125cc, and then got a 750. My first takeoff with the 750 was "interesting", in that I used my normal technique that I used for the 125 - open it up to 6000 rpm and pop the clutch.

But we have equivalent schemes in the US for heavy vehicles - I can't just jump in a dump druck or tractor trailer and drive it, I'd have to take extra training and testing.

My motorcycle test was interesting - I was there on a 125, a woman had a 400 or so, and a guy had a chopped Harley. I merrily zipped around the cones w/o effort, the woman had to work at it, and the guy with the chopper could not get his chopper around some of the cones because of it's turning radius (he got passed anyway because the instructor saw what was happening). Yet, I could have legally left the testing lot driving that Harley, which I was in no way prepared to handle. At least to legally drive a dump truck, I actually have to drive a dump truck in the test, not a VW Beetle.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Cleon
My first bike, which is still my only, is a 1999 BMW R1100GS - a 1.1 liter (or "litre" <g>) engine. Was it too much for me, as a beginning rider? Yeah, no doubt. But I did make do and eventually was able to figure out the rule of "wheels under, rider over."

...

But the reality is, when you just learn, you can't handle a Honda Goldwing.

True, nor a GSXR-1000, which has 156 horses in a 306 pound frame, and can reach 60mph in 2.7 seconds, and has a top speed of 146 out of the showroom.

Even though your bike was an 1100, it's still not the instant death machine that some of the supersport bikes can be. One poster on the other forum makes mention that they should be talking about engine power, not displacement, and I agree with that.

I've been riding for almost four years on my first bike which is a Virago 750. It's very forgiving, very predictable, and a great learner bike for a 6,2" 185Lb guy. It's just a hair small for my frame, but I'll deal.

In the first year I rode, I already had the urge for more power, but I've put it off, and I think finally next season with years under my belt, I'll move up to something faster, like a warrior. I do believe waiting is better in this regard, but I still wonder how I would feel if a sales person told he would not sell me a bigger bike.

[Tmy]

Who are these bike nazis????

Why stop at bikes? Why not do this wh cars?

Bikes are a major purchase, Am I to plunk down 7 grand on a 500cc and then what. 3momths later Ive masterd the thing and now I to trade iti n for peanuts and spend 10K to buy a bigger bike??

Adn like whats been said size doesnt really matter much. There are 600's that can waste 1100s.

[roger]

Originally posted by Tmy
Why stop at bikes? Why not do this wh cars? Well, as I pointed out, we do do it with cars (trucks). You can't drive a truck over a certain gross weight without a commercial license (for example). That doesn't make it right or wrong in the case of bikes, but the precedent is there.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Tmy
Who are these bike nazis????

Why stop at bikes? Why not do this wh cars?

Bikes are a major purchase, Am I to plunk down 7 grand on a 500cc and then what. 3momths later Ive masterd the thing and now I to trade iti n for peanuts and spend 10K to buy a bigger bike??

Adn like whats been said size doesnt really matter much. There are 600's that can waste 1100s.

Well, first thing, we do do this with cars/trucks. Don't believe me? Try to get a job driving a big rig sometime. (Hint; you have to get something they call a "CDL.")

Second, cars != bikes. Handling a car is NOT the same thing as handling a bike, nor are they even analogous IMO. Handling a motorcycle involves a lot more concentration, effort, and skill than a four-or-more-wheeled vehicle.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by roger
Well, as I pointed out, we do do it with cars (trucks). You can't drive a truck over a certain gross weight without a commercial license (for example). That doesn't make it right or wrong in the case of bikes, but the precedent is there.

But we dont really do that wh truck. You can get your truck license by taking the test. Granted it a harder test but your not told to "drive this box truck for a year and then you can drive this 18 wheeler".

Plus when you get your drivers licence you can drive ANY car. You can hop into a Porche 911 and no one says boo. You dont even need to know how to drive standard! I dont think the problem is dangerous bikes, i think its dangerous riders. I was dumb my first year riding. I got past that.

I got my licence thru a riding course. I recomend that to everyone.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Andonyx

Even though your bike was an 1100, it's still not the instant death machine that some of the supersport bikes can be. One poster on the other forum makes mention that they should be talking about engine power, not displacement, and I agree with that.



Yeah, you're probably right there. My GS is a dual-sport; it's built for power, with suspension out the wazoo, and for comfort (it's got a sport-touring aspect to the bike as well). You take a crotch rocket with 700 cc, it'll smoke me.

Around these parts bikers have a term for the 18/19-year-old kids who ride around on rockets; "squids." Nobody knows exactly where the term came from, but "common knowledge" is that it's partially because that's what their innards look like splattered across the road.


In the first year I rode, I already had the urge for more power, but I've put it off, and I think finally next season with years under my belt, I'll move up to something faster, like a warrior. I do believe waiting is better in this regard, but I still wonder how I would feel if a sales person told he would not sell me a bigger bike.

Well, expecting a salesperson to do it would be unrealistic, IMO. It would have to be a police-enforced effort, like learner's permit restrictions.

That said, I should point out that the owner of BMW Motorcycles of Atlanta, who sold me my bike and remains a good friend to this day, did try to get me to buy something smaller (so did his wife, actually). Unfortunately, being the stubborn SOB that I am, I fell in love with the GS in his showroom and wouldn't be talked out of it. :)

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Tmy


But we dont really do that wh truck. You can get your truck license by taking the test. Granted it a harder test but your not told to "drive this box truck for a year and then you can drive this 18 wheeler".



Well, sure, a test would be optimal rather than an arbitrary waiting period.



Plus when you get your drivers licence you can drive ANY car. You can hop into a Porche 911 and no one says boo. You dont even need to know how to drive standard! I dont think the problem is dangerous bikes, i think its dangerous riders. I was dumb my first year riding. I got past that.

I got my licence thru a riding course. I recomend that to everyone.

Again, car != bike. If you can't drive standard, chances are you're not going to get that Porche 911 out of the driveway and the worst that can happen is you need a new tranny. On a bike, however, if you've got a bike too big for you to handle, you may very well kill yourself and/or others.

I agree, the problem is dangerous riders. And I've been through that same MSF course--one of the things they point out, rather strenuously in fact, is that one of the things that makes a rider dangerous is not being able to handle his/her bike.

[roger]

Originally posted by Tmy
Granted it a harder test but your not told to "drive this box truck for a year and then you can drive this 18 wheeler". Good point, you are right.

I don't know where I fall on this - I know I came close to hurting myself with a big bike, and could see being asked to retest on it. I would probably not have like to have been forced to wait, or to ride an intermediate size in the interim. OTOH, my dislike doesn't overrule public safety. hmm.....

[Tmy]

I am surpised how easy it is to get a permit. Its a catch 22 though. How are you supposed to learn to ride before you can get your permit?? You need the permit to ride.

In MAss the licence test is considered to be difficult so lots of people dont bother and just use their permit and go wh the restrictions.

I never did the test. I passed the class which was easier than the dopey figure 8 DMV test.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Tmy


I never did the test. I passed the class which was easier than the dopey figure 8 DMV test.

See in 1995 (?) I believe, they changed the Illinois test...it's now the 4-part / 7 excersize test. You have to start, and make a sharp inside / outside / inside U-turn in a narrow space and then come to a stop with the front tire in a three foot box. Then a cone weave into a very tight u-turn, then a second gear to standing stop distance test, and then a second gear swerve test. It's certainly tougher than the figure eight with hand signals test, but It felt weird that after just mastering that, the state says I'm okay to take any bike in the world I want out, on my own, under any conditions, and in IL, with NO helmet.

Imagine being able to pilot any motorcycle that's street legal after never having gotten it up to third gear, even once. Because in the MSF course, and in the test you never actually HAVE to take it past second.

But yes we should stress that riding a motorcycle is very different than riding a car. Nevermind that it's physically impossible to say...talk on your cellphone, put make up on, read a newspaper, or have an animated conversation with your passenger, (barring fancy helmet radio rigs for touring bikes.), but it takes a much higher degree of concentration, and somewhat higher physical skill and strength to operate a motorcycle properly and safely.

Having said that...I'm still not sure I agree 100% with graduated licenses. I lean toward less government restrictions on anything unless they show a compelling interest for the good of the citizenry. I still believe that in the majority of cases motorcycle riders who ride byond their ability are far more a danger to themselves than to others.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Andonyx

Imagine being able to pilot any motorcycle that's street legal after never having gotten it up to third gear, even once. Because in the MSF course, and in the test you never actually HAVE to take it past second.



Is speed really a factor, or being able to maneuver the bike? I find the MSF course to be a great way to introduce people to safe riding, but I would not recomment it for a first-time rider.

(I've done the MSF course, individual instruction, and "road coaching.")



Having said that...I'm still not sure I agree 100% with graduated licenses. I lean toward less government restrictions on anything unless they show a compelling interest for the good of the citizenry. I still believe that in the majority of cases motorcycle riders who ride byond their ability are far more a danger to themselves than to others.

More of a danger? Sure, because they're more, ah, intimately involved. However, they do pose a danger to others. Remember, that guy on the crotch rocket weaving through traffic is sitting on top of a 500-pound missile he may or may not be able to handle adequately. In addition to turning himself into ground manbeef, that missile may also hit:

<UL>
<LI>Other cars
<LI>Other motorcycles
<LI>Pedestrians
<LI>Off-road property
<LI>Barriers, beams, signs, or other road-related items
[/list]

That's a danger, sure enough.

[Tmy]

You wouldnt recomend the MSF??? WHy not? It taught me how to properly use the brakes, counter steering, and other smart riding tips. Ive known lots of these guys who jump on crotch rockets with no training, THey cant handle the bikes cause they dont know these little tricks. On my little Bandit 600 I used to outride some of these punks on supersports.

Of all the people Ive known whove gotten into bike accidents almost all of them where due to hottdogging and speeding.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Cleon


Is speed really a factor, or being able to maneuver the bike?


Well speed is the biggest factor in how dangeroues it becomes...high speed equals greater energy, equals greater damage, and less reaction time for the rider, that's pretty much the main thing. Yes, not being able to handle the bike is one thing, and certainly no small thing, but if I have target fixation on a lamp-post and I'm going 60 MPH I have exactly half as much time to react to it, and hit the post with 4 times as much force than if I was going 30.



I find the MSF course to be a great way to introduce people to safe riding, but I would not recomment it for a first-time rider.



I tend to disagree. I think the MSF course is designed specifically for the novice. That's also why they have a separate experienced rider course.

As for not being able to handle it, we learned on tiny little 250 thumpers in the class, even the more petite women there could man-handle those thing. And we started small...you know walking the bike around in ovals with our feet on the ground...etc. I perconally think it's a great way to make sure you learn the good habits first instead of learning bad habits from your friends and then having to unlearn them later.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Tmy
You wouldnt recomend the MSF??? WHy not?



I said I wouldn't recommend it for the novice. It's a very fast-paced three days; for people who've never touched a motorcycle before, this is rather challenging, and many drop out.

What I would recommend for complete neophytes is individual instruction with an MSF-certified instructor.



Of all the people Ive known whove gotten into bike accidents almost all of them where due to hottdogging and speeding.

Well, I associate mostly with BMW riders (not snobbishness, that's just the way it's worked out), so I don't know many folks who've been in hotdogging accidents. The accidents I see most frequently are due to cars, to sand/water in the road, and wildlife. (We have a guy in BMW Owners of Georgia who's now nicknamed "Bear.")

Adam

[Tmy]

My MSF class was geared for greenhorns. We started off pushing each other around on the bikes (little Suzuki 250's). Everyone seemed to keep pace really well. The big problem is that the classes filled up so fast that lots of people couldnt get a spot.

Ive been in an accident. I WAS REAR ENDED BY A CAR!!! I was at a stop and POW!!! sling shot me strait ahaed. I managed to keep the bike up. I was so pissed I gotoff my bike ready to kill and I turn around and this 16 yr old girl is crying cause she thought she killed me.

Drives me nuts. Im so careful all the time and I get bopped from behind.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Tmy
My MSF class was geared for greenhorns. We started off pushing each other around on the bikes (little Suzuki 250's). Everyone seemed to keep pace really well. The big problem is that the classes filled up so fast that lots of people couldnt get a spot.



Here in GA, Honda's a big MSF sponsor; the classes are held at the Honda Rider's Center (at least here in Atl) and use 350-cc Nighthawks.

Because motorcycling is so popular here (mountains--nice weather much of the year--you get the drift), it is not uncommon for waiting lists to be up to a year long.

I actually lucked out. A buddy of mine in the club heard from a guy "in the know" that they were about to open up a mid-week class for a month. We submitted our applications immediately, and a week later we were in.



Ive been in an accident. I WAS REAR ENDED BY A CAR!!! I was at a stop and POW!!! sling shot me strait ahaed. I managed to keep the bike up. I was so pissed I gotoff my bike ready to kill and I turn around and this 16 yr old girl is crying cause she thought she killed me.

Drives me nuts. Im so careful all the time and I get bopped from behind.

I've dwelt in that cave, my brother...Two weeks after I first brought home the Geekcycle I got rear-ended by a Jeep while slowing down to turn into the office complex. Bike goes down, I spill over into oncoming traffic (which, luckily, was going slow enough to see me in time to go around me). Scared the hell out me, and the guy who hit me. He was apologetic enough, but the cop who came out was a jerk. Cost the Jeep driver's insurance co. about $3000, and cost him a $200 ticket.