[Split]Psychic Inner Circle and rules - split from: RE: James Randi/Million Dollor ch [Archive]

maatorc

24th May 2008, 06:52 PM

jond asks some good questions:
and the totality of your response is:
Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
It is so described because its undertaking demands a 'Great Effort'.

:confused:
Can you see, maatorc, why you have so little credibility? Provide some detail. Give us some substance rather than just your inscrutible one-liners. Either that or be prepared for a lot of :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do not talk to me about credibility: The MDC lacks credibility.

If you can get out of the habit of demanding I answer your questions based on your terms and your presumptions this exchange might lead somewhere.

For example, does it not occur to you that the 'Great Effort' of the 'Great Work' mentioned might be intended to lead somewhere?

SezMe

24th May 2008, 07:36 PM

Do not talk to me about credibility: The MDC lacks credibility.
Tu quoque. Let's suppose, for the sake of this thread only, that you are right. This "fact" does not in any way justify or rectify your own credibility problem.

If you can get out of the habit of demanding I answer your questions based on your terms and your presumptions this exchange might lead somewhere.
How is asking equivalent to demanding? And if you don't want to engage in dialog by answering questions, then why post at all?

For example, does it not occur to you that the 'Great Effort' of the 'Great Work' mentioned might be intended to lead somewhere?
Nope. Thanks, prewitt81.

Pup

24th May 2008, 07:41 PM

cos

24th May 2008, 08:01 PM

For example, does it not occur to you that the 'Great Effort' of the 'Great Work' mentioned might be intended to lead somewhere?

Are you referring to the Rosicrucian idea?

Remember that most if not all of us here are clueless and uninitiated, so we don't know the secret meanings of these words. Work and Effort are synonyms to us ordinary folk.

So the Work was hard Work. I'm with you so far. What was so hard to do? And now that it's done, what's next?

maatorc

24th May 2008, 08:44 PM

How can we distinguish between these two groups?
1) People who could pass the MDC, but who can't take the challenge because they're in the "inner circle."
2) People who couldn't pass the MDC, but who are telling a made-up story about an "inner circle" as an excuse not to take it, so they can still claim to be able to pass it.

How can one distinguish between an organization which offers to judge what it denies is possible and cannot know or measure, and an individual who claims to be able to demonstrate what the organization denies is possible and cannot know or measure?

maatorc

24th May 2008, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
For example, does it not occur to you that the 'Great Effort' of the 'Great Work' mentioned might be intended to lead somewhere?

1...Are you referring to the Rosicrucian idea?
2...Remember that most if not all of us here are clueless and uninitiated,
3...so we don't know the secret meanings of these words. Work and Effort are synonyms to us ordinary folk.
4...So the Work was hard Work. I'm with you so far. What was so hard to do? And now that it's done, what's next?

1..The legend-myth of Christian Rosencreutz is an example similar to the Osiris-Hermetic, the New testament-Human perfectibility, The Grail-Occult Anatomy, and other devices employed to transmit essentially the same knowledge.

2...I do not see it that way.

3...The words are not innately 'secret', simply unfamiliar in this context.

4...The Great Work demanding a Great Effort, if undertaken in the right way, leads to another stage described in the tradition as 'The Great Art', which, however, is not the conclusion of the Work.

JoeEllison

24th May 2008, 09:10 PM

Can you see, maatorc, why you have so little credibility? Provide some detail. Give us some substance rather than just your inscrutible one-liners. Either that or be prepared for a lot of :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
It is a Great Work of the Inner School... we in the Inner School can brag online, as long as we don't actually give away any details. That's how maatorc knows about the Inner School and the Great Work even though he's not a member and it is a complete and closely-guarded secret.

SezMe

24th May 2008, 09:12 PM

How can one distinguish between an organization which offers to judge what it denies is possible and cannot know or measure, and an individual who claims to be able to demonstrate what the organization denies is possible and cannot know or measure?
Please save your strawmen for another thread. The JREF/Randi do not deny that the paranormal is possible. Many posters here on the fora have expressed an interest in seeing it demonstated.

In the preliminary tests that have been conducted so far, claimants have agreed upon a protocol that would demonstrate their paranormal claim should the criteria be met. IOW, they have agreed upon a measurement protocol for the paranormality they claim to be able to demonstate.

There, see how easy it is to answer questions with statements. You should give it a try some time.

maatorc

24th May 2008, 09:53 PM

Please save your strawmen for another thread. The JREF/Randi do not deny that the paranormal is possible. Many posters here on the fora have expressed an interest in seeing it demonstated.
In the preliminary tests that have been conducted so far, claimants have agreed upon a protocol that would demonstrate their paranormal claim should the criteria be met. IOW, they have agreed upon a measurement protocol for the paranormality they claim to be able to demonstate.
There, see how easy it is to answer questions with statements. You should give it a try some time.

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show ...evidence of any (1)paranormal, (2)supernatural, or (3)occult power or event.

1...What the JREF calls 'paranormal' is merely a word-game relating to alternative or non-orthodox practices or ideas.
2...What it calls 'supernatural' is irrelevant, as their cannot possibly be anything 'super' beyond the 'natural': It is a misnomer and should be deleted from the challenge.
3...Occult power or events are totally beyond the capacity of the MDC to measure, prove, or disprove.

rjh01

24th May 2008, 11:28 PM

Can I make pointless posts and then make more pointless responses to the posts? All without explaining what I mean or provide any evidence?

People who make posts claiming unspecified others have certain unspecified powers and such like need to tell their parents they want to drop out of school when they get to age 15 and get a job. This is to prevent waste of money.

baldo

24th May 2008, 11:46 PM

I don't think that you have answered any questions. All that you have done is describe something that is being done. And how -- praytell -- could you possibly create accurate measures for activity that by its very nature is undefineable?

maatorc

25th May 2008, 12:37 AM

SezMe

25th May 2008, 01:32 AM

That is a question you should ask the MDC.
That's just nonsensical. The MDC is basically a contract. Randi says that if you perform in a specified way that we agree upon beforehand under conditions that we agree upon beforehand then I will give you $1 million.

How do you propose to ask a question of a contract? A contract that has only been outlined in its most general terms and that must be defined for each individual challenge.

C'mon, maatorc, you seem to be losing your focus in this thread. Concentrate and stick to the issues at hand.

maatorc

25th May 2008, 02:21 AM

That's just nonsensical. The MDC is basically a contract. Randi says that if you perform in a specified way that we agree upon beforehand under conditions that we agree upon beforehand then I will give you $1 million.
How do you propose to ask a question of a contract? A contract that has only been outlined in its most general terms and that must be defined for each individual challenge.
C'mon, maatorc, you seem to be losing your focus in this thread. Concentrate and stick to the issues at hand.

You are getting too carried away: I am generalizing.
There is no point to a contract of any kind to prove or disprove an occult power or event when the MDC has not and cannot have any means of knowing if an event or power is or is not occult.
To contractually 'agree' that a particular claimed event or power is 'occult' is arrant nonsense because the MDC does know what an occult event or power is.

chillzero

25th May 2008, 02:28 AM

chillzero

25th May 2008, 02:30 AM

Here you go:
Those who can prove or demonstrate the psychic or occult will not apply because under the rules of their status they cannot indulge, or mystify, or entertain a stranger, the merely curious, or the merely skeptical; and especially not for money.

Those who do apply will of course be those who cannot demonstrate the psychic or occult.

All humans possess psychic consciousness of varying degrees of unfoldment and attainment. Some few have attained a very advanced mastery of its functions and direction. At the very highest level of attainment exists a private group which constitutes an inner circle. This circle will not trivialize or demean its attainment, status, and function.

Is there somewhere on the internet we could study this further, or do you make it up as you go along?

Thanks. Much clearer. BTW, if you want to quote multiple posts, use the button between the "Quote" and "Reply" buttons.

I'm gonna pass on the first sentence because we'd end up in a derail. So let me ask:
"Some few ..." Can you quantify that? 3? 30? 30,000?
Are you one of them?
Is this group formalized in any sense? That is, how does an insider know someone else is also an insider? And how does an outsider know who is on the inside? Is there a list on the web somewhere?
Repeat the same three questions above for the inner circle.
If any group - no matter how informal or formal - has an "inner circle", I am sure that inner circle would protect its "attainment, status, and function." So how is your group different??

1.....No.
2.....Do not mind the question, but discuss principles only.
3a...Not in any standard physical or material sense.
3b...It is based on the attainment required and represented by the circle.
3c...An outsider has no way of penetrating the circle, and needs to be told.
3d...No.
4.....I am only discussing the inner circle.
5.....The difference with the circle to whom I am referring is their attainments and what they represent and do, unlike any other group or circle.

SezMe

25th May 2008, 02:56 AM

Keep it civil please, and on topic. This was split from the MDC section to discuss the nature of whatever this inner circle is supposed to be. Please don't derail it back the way to discussing the MDC.

I'll copy over a few posts that may help.
I see no lack of civility in this thread. Can you cite an instance?

Since this split thread seems to have returned to the original topic, maybe the split was premature. How 'bout remerging the two and let thread drift take it where it would naturally go. Or not go.

chillzero

25th May 2008, 03:13 AM

I see no lack of civility in this thread. Can you cite an instance?

Since this split thread seems to have returned to the original topic, maybe the split was premature. How 'bout remerging the two and let thread drift take it where it would naturally go. Or not go.

If you wish to discuss any of my response further after this post, please take it to Forum Mgt.

The incivility is mild - that's why there are no yellow cards or anything. I responded to a report, and while I saw why it was reported, didn't feel it warranted an action.

As to topic, perhaps you could review the posts I just quoted in my last post. They were completely off topic for the MDC forum, and the thread needed to be split. It was not thread drift and additionally, the MDC section is under stricter moderation as regards to keeping strictly on topic.

Any further comments on this - take them to Forum Mgt please.

jond

25th May 2008, 05:24 AM

It is so described because its undertaking demands a 'Great Effort'.

That's not what I asked. Please answer the questions.

JoeEllison

25th May 2008, 06:54 AM

Look, the Inner Circle is a SECRET!! No one knows about it, or the Great Work, or anything else of what we do. No one knows about our secret meetings or psychic powers or any of that, which is why we don't participate in the MDC. To take part in the MDC would be to reveal our secret powers... powers so secret that I cannot even reveal their existence!

Pup

25th May 2008, 09:14 AM

How can one distinguish between an organization which offers to judge what it denies is possible and cannot know or measure, and an individual who claims to be able to demonstrate what the organization denies is possible and cannot know or measure?

My question wasn't rhetorical, so I hope you'll answer it.

Here's a serious answer to your question.

Members of the organization (the JREF of course) may state that they believe positive results are impossible, but they do believe that results can be known and measured, for things which qualify for the test. If someone proposes a test and passes it, the results are self evident and not dependent on what the testers believe.

Untestable paranormal things, like unreproducable occurrences, claims about unaccessible times and places, claims of subjective experiences, etc., are outside the scope of the test, and the JREF freely admits that.

So could these people you're speaking of actually win the MDC challenge if they tried for it? Or are they only capable of "paranormal" things which cannot be tested?

Because anyone can claim any number of things that can't be tested: I know what's happening on Alpha Centauri right now. I know who created the universe. I had a vision of the Virgin Mary when I was twelve. I can experience oneness with the universe through prayer and meditation. Those kind of paranormal "powers" are a dime a dozen.

Edited to add: Whoops, just saw the caution not to underail the thread back to the MDC. So I'll emphasize the non-MDC part of this post. What kinds of paranormal things can these people do? How do we know they're any more or less genuine than the claims made by any number of religions, new-agers, etc.?

Worm

25th May 2008, 10:36 AM

maatorc: have you been watching 'Heroes' too much?

seriously,

a) if this 'Inner Circle' is so secret, then how do you know about them?
b) if their powers cannot be revealed, then how do you know that they have them?
c) if they can't use their powers, what damn use are they?
d) if they know you're talking about them, aren't you in big trouble?

JoeEllison

25th May 2008, 10:44 AM

a) if this 'Inner Circle' is so secret, then how do you know about them?
b) if their powers cannot be revealed, then how do you know that they have them?
c) if they can't use their powers, what damn use are they?
d) if they know you're talking about them, aren't you in big trouble?

a) We get drunk and blab online and in bars and such?
b) We sometimes use our powers to pick up chicks, and then brag about it?
c) We can only use them for trivial things like picking up chicks?
d) We'll be dealing with maatorc shortly... as soon as he gets a chick, we're stealing her from him.:D

maatorc

25th May 2008, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by jond View Post
Very exciting news. What, exactly is this "Great Work?" What, exactly, can those in the inner circle do that is "Great?" How, exactly, are you or any member of the inner circle going to demonstrate this "Great Work?"

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
It is so described because its undertaking demands a 'Great Effort'.

That's not what I asked. Please answer the questions.

The Great Work demanding a Great Effort, if undertaken in the right way, leads to another stage described in the tradition as 'The Great Art', which, however, is not the conclusion of the Work.
There are further stages leading to its culmination.

Civilized Worm

25th May 2008, 05:02 PM

Sounds Great.

maatorc

25th May 2008, 05:08 PM

......
a) if this 'Inner Circle' is so secret, then how do you know about them?
b) if their powers cannot be revealed, then how do you know that they have them?
c) if they can't use their powers, what damn use are they?
d) if they know you're talking about them, aren't you in big trouble?

a...Its existence is not that big a secret. Knowing 'about' them is a very long way from possibly being one of them.
b...I have not said their powers cannot be revealed. I have said they will not trivialize or demean them for public indulgence or profit.
c...They can use their powers for purposes of great good.
d...Their is nothing I say about them that can adversely affect their work.

SezMe

25th May 2008, 05:36 PM

JoeEllison

25th May 2008, 06:02 PM

Sounds Great.

We in the Inner Circle prefer to refer to it as the Great and Groovy Rhymes-With-Mitt... :D

maatorc

25th May 2008, 07:07 PM

Word salad with no nutritional value whatsoever.

I appreciate that you feel obliged to say things like that because my position is the very antithesis of the pseudo-skeptical nonsense pedalled here as the true science of all knowledge.
What you should take into account is that the vast majority of posts including yours are exactly what you deride and seek to discredit in others, being without any real content or substance and totally lacking any actual position.
You and your like here have absolutely nothing whatsoever to say and you cannot tolerate or bear the thought that someone else does.

JoeEllison

25th May 2008, 07:09 PM

Word salad with no nutritional value whatsoever.

Don't blame poor maatorc... he's been on the outside looking in for so long that we really should pity him.

maatorc

25th May 2008, 07:20 PM

Don't blame poor maatorc... he's been on the outside looking in for so long that we really should pity him.

The site Master Troll speaks: Has been on the inside looking out for so long he does not even know who he is.

JoeEllison

25th May 2008, 07:22 PM

I just want everyone to know that the Inner Circle has big plans for 2012... we can't tell you, of course, but they are going to be GREAT!

SezMe

25th May 2008, 08:48 PM

You and your like here have absolutely nothing whatsoever to say and you cannot tolerate or bear the thought that someone else does.
Hey, Joe, good thing you're on the inside or else you'd be my "like"! Perish the thought, eh? So tell me, is being on the inside Great?

jond

26th May 2008, 05:31 AM

The Great Work demanding a Great Effort, if undertaken in the right way, leads to another stage described in the tradition as 'The Great Art', which, however, is not the conclusion of the Work.
There are further stages leading to its culmination.

Right, but what is the culmination? What can these inner circle people actually DO? Why should we care? How can we find out more information, maybe a link or a book reference or something?

Your vague responses offer very little that might convince anyone of the importance of this news, yet it's clearly of great importance to you. Try offering up something other than cryptic assertions, please.

Flo

26th May 2008, 07:23 AM

The Great Work demanding a Great Effort, if undertaken in the right way, leads to another stage described in the tradition as 'The Great Art', which, however, is not the conclusion of the Work.
There are further stages leading to its culmination.

Word salad with no nutritional value whatsoever.

Especially since it is yet another version of the old "Tomorrow, free lunch".

I've lost count of the number of people who I've heard or read claim they were part of that fabled inner circle, or that they were on the brink of realising that mythic great work, and of the list of ad hoc excuses for the delay or the inability of demonstrating anything at all. Boring.

steenkh

26th May 2008, 07:49 AM

I've lost count of the number of people who I've heard or read claim they were part of that fabled inner circle, or that they were on the brink of realising that mythic great work, and of the list of ad hoc excuses for the delay or the inability of demonstrating anything at all. Boring.
The Great Work of the Inner Circle has actually succeeded beyond all expectations: its purpose was to withdraw all knowledge of the Inner Circle from the world, and it has succeeded to the point where even maatorc cannot remember what the Great Work was all about!

Rocko

26th May 2008, 07:52 AM

It is so described because its undertaking demands a 'Great Effort'.

I get constipation too :(

Worm

26th May 2008, 08:01 AM

a...Its existence is not that big a secret. Knowing 'about' them is a very long way from possibly being one of them.
b...I have not said their powers cannot be revealed. I have said they will not trivialize or demean them for public indulgence or profit.
c...They can use their powers for purposes of great good.
d...Their is nothing I say about them that can adversely affect their work.

a) So who are they, where are they? If they are not secret, what is their phone number, address, website etc?
b) Fair enough, depends what you class as 'trivialise', but who am I to argue ;)
c) They can, but have they? What 'great good' have they done?
d) Good to hear, now what exactly is their work?

Flo

26th May 2008, 08:58 AM

a) So who are they, where are they? If they are not secret, what is their phone number, address, website etc?
b) Fair enough, depends what you class as 'trivialise', but who am I to argue ;)
c) They can, but have they? What 'great good' have they done?
d) Good to hear, now what exactly is their work?

Some of the answers I've heard:

a) their modesty forbids them to go public. *

b) show it to "non initiated" people who may inadvertently misuse it **

c) it's so big and pervasive (or subtle), only initiated people can perceive it. ***

d) see b).

* especially since the public might ask them embarrassing questions.
** misuse it as in "make it apparent it's a lot of hot air".
*** "initiated people" is code for "people who have checked all critical thinking at the door".

JoeEllison

26th May 2008, 10:37 AM

Hey, Joe, good thing you're on the inside or else you'd be my "like"! Perish the thought, eh? So tell me, is being on the inside Great?

It took Great Effort to get in on the Great Work, but it fills me with Great Pride. We also throw Great Parties! :D

JoeEllison

26th May 2008, 10:42 AM

Especially since it is yet another version of the old "Tomorrow, free lunch".

I've lost count of the number of people who I've heard or read claim they were part of that fabled inner circle, or that they were on the brink of realising that mythic great work, and of the list of ad hoc excuses for the delay or the inability of demonstrating anything at all. Boring.

NO! The Inner Circle is real, really really real! Our excuses are Great Excuses!

Little 10 Toes

26th May 2008, 12:29 PM

Well, my works will be Excellent! Wyld Stallyns!!!!!

SezMe

26th May 2008, 04:15 PM

maatorc

26th May 2008, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
The Great Work demanding a Great Effort, if undertaken in the right way, leads to another stage described in the tradition as 'The Great Art', which, however, is not the conclusion of the Work.
There are further stages leading to its culmination.

1...Right, but what is the culmination?
2...What can these inner circle people actually DO? Why should we care? How can we find out more information, maybe a link or a book reference or something? Your vague responses offer very little that might convince anyone of the importance of this news, yet it's clearly of great importance to you. Try offering up something other than cryptic assertions, please.

1...The eventual acquisition of 'The Great Art' leads to the discovery of 'The Great Secret', another step to completing 'The Great Work'.

2...Like most here you sound like you want something for nothing.

maatorc

26th May 2008, 07:04 PM

You're coming in for some considerable ribbing in this thread, eh maatorc? It is all 100% deserved IMO plus I get to enjoy some more of the Great Humor this board is capable of generating......

It is what one expects from people whose only apparent capability is to deride, demean, trivialize, deny, discredit, defame, slander, and smear: It comes with the territory.

JoeEllison

26th May 2008, 07:13 PM

You're coming in for some considerable ribbing in this thread, eh maatorc? It is all 100% deserved IMO plus I get to enjoy some more of the Great Humor this board is capable of generating.

But seriously, if you want to engage the topic climb down off your inane one-liners and provide some substance so we can maybe understand where you're coming from. Either that or just say you don't want to discuss the topic and end the thread. Either is just fine. But playing the middle ground is a waste of bandwidth. We'll soon all get bored and move on to other threads where there is more meat...or humor.

Take your pick.

You just don't understand! We have completed the Great Work, after Great Effort. We will apply the Great Art to the Great Work in a Great Endeavor, in order to create the Great Achievement. Once the Great Achievement is...ummm... achieved, we'll have the Great Announcement about the Great Achievement. We won't actually announce the Great Achievement itself, we'll just be announcing the Great Reveal of the Great Achievement.

Patience, young grasshopper.

SezMe

26th May 2008, 07:43 PM

It is what one expects from people whose only apparent capability is to deride, demean, trivialize, deny, discredit, defame, slander, and smear: It comes with the territory.
Oh boo-freakin'-hoo. Now, where's that unsubscribe menu item ...

maatorc

26th May 2008, 09:27 PM

1...So could these people you're speaking of actually win the MDC ......?
2...What kinds of ...... things can these people do? ......

1...They are capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'.

2...They can function consciously, at will, outside their physical vehicle.

Flo

27th May 2008, 01:37 AM

It is what one expects from people whose only apparent capability is to deride, demean, trivialize, deny, discredit, defame, slander, and smear: It comes with the territory.

And apparently, the capability of people like you is endless masochism ...

Flo

27th May 2008, 01:38 AM

1...They are capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'.

2...They can function consciously, at will, outside their physical vehicle.

1) Centuries of idle claims on 5 continents, and we're still waiting for those demonstrations.

2) see 1)

maatorc

27th May 2008, 02:08 AM

1) Centuries of idle claims on 5 continents, and we're still waiting for those demonstrations.
2) see 1)

You are waiting because you cannot qualify for the demonstration.

maatorc

27th May 2008, 02:09 AM

And apparently, the capability of people like you is endless masochism ...

And apparently, the capability of people like you is endless masochism.

Mashuna

27th May 2008, 02:52 AM

1...They are capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'.

2...They can function consciously, at will, outside their physical vehicle.

Hey, I can function consciously outside my physical vehicle. I've not been in my car for two weeks now.

jond

27th May 2008, 05:08 AM

1...The eventual acquisition of 'The Great Art' leads to the discovery of 'The Great Secret', another step to completing 'The Great Work'.

2...Like most here you sound like you want something for nothing.

1. This still answers nothing of value. It's merely another veiled reference to something about which you appear to have information but refuse to share.

2. What utter nonsense. I'm asking questions so that I can learn more. Clearly you have nothing from which I could learn. Why do you bother posting here?

JoeEllison

27th May 2008, 05:22 AM

1. This still answers nothing of value. It's merely another veiled reference to something about which you appear to have information but refuse to share.

2. What utter nonsense. I'm asking questions so that I can learn more. Clearly you have nothing from which I could learn. Why do you bother posting here?

Here's the deal: I'm in the Inner Circle. There's a second circle that is so secret, even the people in that circle don't know it exists, but I'm going to spill the beans on it just because I like the cut of your jib.

The Outer Circle includes people like maatorc, and they exist as camouflage for the Inner Circle. They have no effing clue what they are talking about, and are lying through their teeth when they claim any knowledge whatsoever. Notice how the members of the Outer Circle can never give a specific answer? They have none to give, because they are not privy to ANY of the knowledge of the Inner Circle.

They are perfect camouflage, aren't they? Thanks to maatorc and posters like him, almost 100% of the online community is convinced that the Inner Circle doesn't exist!

steenkh

27th May 2008, 05:24 AM

Why do you bother posting here?
That is part of the "Great Secret".

Flo

27th May 2008, 08:12 AM

You are waiting because you cannot qualify for the demonstration.

Yes, I know, I'm not gullible :D

VulcanWay

27th May 2008, 02:32 PM

A couple things.

First, maatorc, if these people are "capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'" how can you then say that what they do is unmeasurable and what have you? If I say that I can do a thing, for example bench-press 200 pounds, I think it's fair of you to ask to see me do it and if I can indeed do it I'll demonstrate it. I suppose I'm confused as to if someone is capable of demonstrating 'occult powers' that they can't be asked to do so because what they do is unmeasurable.

Secondly, I am curious as to why you're even bringing this Great Event up on this forum in the first place. If you just wanted to announce this thing for this secret group, though I don't get it, that would make some sense. If that were the case you'd have made your statement and left, never to be heard from again on this thread. My other thought is that you're an attention-seeker desperate for someone to ask you questions for which you can give a greater-than-thou enigmatic answer. Also, why would you come to a skeptics forum and post enigmatic responses and have the gall to be shocked when you are asked to provide even some semblance of proof? What are you thinking?

We really have seen a number of these "I am JUST outside this secret group that is really not so secret if you just know where to look who can do amazing things but don't because that would cheapen their abilities" posts. The gist of the posts from these people that follow amount to, "can't you just take my word for it?" And, no, we cannot. If such a group exists, as another poster asks, what "good" have they done? Surely we can be told of their deeds done for the benefit of humankind. And if such a group exists and they could be doing more good, but choose not to in order to save their egos, then they aren't very good or useful are they?

Why don't we just end this thread here? We already know all that you are going to tell us.

maatorc

27th May 2008, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
1...The eventual acquisition of 'The Great Art' leads to the discovery of 'The Great Secret', another step to completing 'The Great Work'.
This still answers nothing of value. It's merely another veiled reference to something about which you appear to have information but refuse to share.

You have to ask the right question: I have pointed to it, but you have not yet seen it.

maatorc

27th May 2008, 06:54 PM

1...if these people are "capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'" how can you then say that what they do is unmeasurable ......
2...I am curious as to why you're even bringing this Great Event up on this forum in the first place......
3...Why don't we just end this thread here? We already know all that you are going to tell us.

1...They may be observable and perceivable, and effects may be measurable, but the 'capability' in itself is outside any form of phenomenal measurement.

2...You are here confusing me with another poster.

3...What am I going to tell you?

steenkh

28th May 2008, 01:19 AM

1...They may be observable and perceivable, and effects may be measurable, but the 'capability' in itself is outside any form of phenomenal measurement.
If the phenomenon is observable, the capability to produce it is also measurable per definition.

logical muse

28th May 2008, 02:01 AM

You are waiting because you cannot qualify for the demonstration.

I'd like to qualify. Where do I apply?

I'm serious, btw, I'd like to qualify.

maatorc

28th May 2008, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
1...They may be observable and perceivable, and effects may be measurable, but the 'capability' in itself is outside any form of phenomenal measurement.

If the phenomenon is observable, the capability to produce it is also measurable per definition.

Wrong: Phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.

Worm

28th May 2008, 03:37 AM

Whoah! let's not get back into that

Please. It's just too sad.

maatorc

28th May 2008, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
It is what one expects from people whose only apparent capability is to deride, demean, trivialize, deny, discredit, defame, slander, and smear: It comes with the territory.
Oh boo-freakin'-hoo. Now, where's that unsubscribe menu item ...

You miss the point: I am unconcerned by, and not offended by these posters, and accept their right to express themselves; and the method they choose is most revealing of their personalities and true characters, as is the fact that almost without exception they do not have an actual position on any subject.

maatorc

28th May 2008, 03:52 AM

I'd like to qualify. Where do I apply?...

'Qualify' means one is at a certain stage in the great effort of undertaking the great work in acquiring the great art, which is a transmitted technique and discipline.

A demonstration to one who qualifies is for the sole purpose of proving the character, meaning, and truth of the great work.

An example of the great work in action is the Grail Legend which transmits an anatomical myth where the characters, places and events symbolize the work.

Hence it may make some sense to you that one who has accomplished the great work will not demonstrate it for the indulgence of the curious or the skeptical or a financial reward.

Don At Work

28th May 2008, 04:36 AM

Hence it may make some sense to you that one who has accomplished the great work will not demonstrate it for the indulgence of the curious or the skeptical or a financial reward.

No, it makes no sense in any way, shape, or form.
If you (or the inner circle which you are not a part of) have accomplished "The Great Work™©", then you would be MORE than happy to show anyone who was "skeptical" the work, and what it means. They would INSTANTLY become your most loyal and vocal supporters.

jond

28th May 2008, 05:21 AM

You have to ask the right question: I have pointed to it, but you have not yet seen it.

How very Yoda of you. Clearly you have nothing to offer, and and nothing to contribute. You are merely passing off assertions to make yourself seem deep when you are, in fact, nothing but a self absorbed woo. Ciao.

Cuddles

28th May 2008, 05:52 AM

My other thought is that you're an attention-seeker desperate for someone to ask you questions for which you can give a greater-than-thou enigmatic answer.

Rearrange these words to form a well known phrase:

on, nail, hit, the, head, the.

Flo

28th May 2008, 06:21 AM

'Qualify' means one is at a certain stage in the great effort of undertaking the great work in acquiring the great art, which is a transmitted technique and discipline.

In other words, and given the complete unability, over the centuries, of self-claimed members or cognoscenti of this fabled "inner circle" to demonstrate (or even to consistently describe) whatever they claim to be able to do, this "certain stage" is just the point of complete gullibility.

A demonstration to one who qualifies is for the sole purpose of proving the character, meaning, and truth of the great work.

In other words, tricks for the gullible.

Hence it may make some sense to you that one who has accomplished the great work will not demonstrate it for the indulgence of the curious or the skeptical or a financial reward.

Sure, it makes perfect sense: there's nothing to demonstrate and the non gullible curious as well as the skeptical might ask embarrassing questions and scoff at the ludicrous answers, which is bad for business.

Paul

28th May 2008, 07:25 AM

Wrong: Phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.When rewritten using the correct language - and not just in a childish attempt to appear intellectual - this is true. However, what you describe are not noumena; something 'observable and perceivable' with 'effects [which]may be measurable' cannot, by definition, be a noumenon.

chillzero

28th May 2008, 07:41 AM

NNNooooooo!!!!!!
Please, not this stuff again. There's a whole other thread already for it.
Please deposit this stuff where it belongs.

*Support the 'Keep your thread clean' Campaign*

Paul

28th May 2008, 08:03 AM

Am I missing something?

JoeEllison

28th May 2008, 08:08 AM

NNNooooooo!!!!!!
Please, not this stuff again. There's a whole other thread already for it.
Please deposit this stuff where it belongs.

*Support the 'Keep your thread clean' Campaign*

It is ok by me, because it is pretty solid proof that maatorc also knows that he doesn't have any information about any Inner Circle or Great Work. That's why he can't stay on one topic: he doesn't know enough about anything he's claiming to contribute anything meaningful to the thread. :D

JoeEllison

28th May 2008, 08:10 AM

I'd like to qualify. Where do I apply?

I'm serious, btw, I'd like to qualify.

I'll send you a Great Application! :D

Worm

28th May 2008, 08:15 AM

Am I missing something?

maatorc's .err. 'interesting' opinions on phenomena and noumena have been discussed in some depth.

It's quite stunningly pointless, but in case you are interested:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=99971

(this is the thread that comes to mind for me - there may be others...)

Don't say you weren't warned....

And I want to make it clear that I am in no way opening the door for the Phenomena/Noumena discussion to spread to this thread....

Paul

28th May 2008, 08:41 AM

Thanks, not only will I not open the door any further, if it that discussion so much as peeks idiotically through the gap I will give the door a swift kick.

Paul

28th May 2008, 08:51 AM

It's quite stunningly pointless, but in case you are interested:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=99971 After a quick scan, that's one thread I'm pleased to have missed.

:boggled:

tsig

28th May 2008, 08:55 AM

1...They are capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'.

2...They can function consciously, at will, outside their physical vehicle.

The Great Work = Eating

The Great Effort = What Happens When You Eat Regularly

The Great Art = The Result Of The Great Effort

The Great Secret = Selling The Great Art As Gold

Drudgewire

28th May 2008, 09:12 AM

For those wondering if there really is a psychic "inner circle," I'd highly recommend seeking out The Psychic Mafia (http://www.randi.org/joom/encyclopedia.html) (it had been out of print forever but apparently is back in circulation. If you look hard you can find it for download online).

The "Great Secret" is they pass around their information about marks like recipes. So whenever one of them moves and goes to a new "psychic" they don't have to go through the whole process of cold reading again and can appear to be getting the same "messages from beyond" the last con artist was recieving.

maatorc

28th May 2008, 04:39 PM

When rewritten using the correct language - and not just in a childish attempt to appear intellectual - this is true. However, what you describe are not noumena; something 'observable and perceivable' with 'effects [which]may be measurable' cannot, by definition, be a noumenon.

You are missing something.

maatorc

28th May 2008, 04:40 PM

No, it makes no sense in any way, shape, or form. If you (or the inner circle which you are not a part of) have accomplished "The Great Work™©", then you would be MORE than happy to show anyone who was "skeptical" the work, and what it means. They would INSTANTLY become your most loyal and vocal supporters.

Not so.

maatorc

28th May 2008, 04:43 PM

In other words, and given the complete unability, over the centuries, of self-claimed members or cognoscenti of this fabled "inner circle" to demonstrate (or even to consistently describe) whatever they claim to be able to do, this "certain stage" is just the point of complete gullibility.
In other words, tricks for the gullible.
Sure, it makes perfect sense: there's nothing to demonstrate and the non gullible curious as well as the skeptical might ask embarrassing questions and scoff at the ludicrous answers, which is bad for business.

By all means stay with your interpretation.

Flo

29th May 2008, 01:28 AM

By all means stay with your interpretation.

And by all means, keep making a fool of yourself.

maatorc

29th May 2008, 02:28 AM

And by all means, keep making a fool of yourself.

Your interpretation means your position is based entirely on vanity and ignorance, as is your above comment.
I cannot possibly make a fool of myself here because pseudo-skepticism is not any kind of real knowledge.
True skepticism is peer based and cannot possibly exist on this site devoted to proving something that it cannot measure is not real.
The MDC is fatally flawed because it fails to comprehend it cannot measure strictly mental events.
Replies to my comments on the Great Work, well known and understood outside this site, with a vast and easily accessible literature, prove beyond question an absolute scientific, historical, philosophical, and cultural shallowness of embarrassing proportions and nature of people here masquerading as authorities and spokespersons for true knowledge.

Flo

29th May 2008, 03:04 AM

Your interpretation means your position is based entirely on vanity and ignorance, as is your above comment..

I know it is very convenient for you to maintain the fiction of your contradictors being vain and ignorant. It is however not so. Most of us have heard the same grandiose claims about being in on occult knowledge, multiple times, in many shapes, forms, and languages. It always boils down to words, words, words, from people who generally contribute absolutely nothing to the good working of mankind, and who, when asked to at least define clearly what it is they are supposed to do, start insulting their contradictor's intelligence. I tell you, it's less than impressive.

The MDC is fatally flawed because it fails to comprehend it cannot measure strictly mental events.

The MDC isn't about measuring whatever hot air passes between a claimant's ears, it is about measuring whatever a claimant pretends to be able to actually do. So far, it has perfectly detected that all you could do was move hot air.

Replies to my comments on the Great Work, well known and understood outside this site, with a vast and easily accessible literature, prove beyond question an absolute scientific, historical, philosophical, and cultural shallowness of embarrassing proportions and nature of people here masquerading as authorities and spokespersons for true knowledge

Wrong. They just prove we can see right through to you.

maatorc

29th May 2008, 04:11 AM

......The MDC isn't about measuring whatever hot air passes between a claimant's ears, it is about measuring whatever a claimant pretends to be able to actually do......

All your rhetoric and insults aside, there are some things that people can do that the MDC cannot measure.
Various levels of phenomenal observation and registration do not measure the actual thing that one does in itself.
Very sophisticated laboratory experiments on apparently very highly intelligent rats at MIT where the brain activity is recorded corresponding to mental processes aside, the actual mental process in itself as distinct from the brain scans, cannot be measured.
The complex technical procedures do not lead to an actual simultaneous consciousness of the rat mentality.
So, also, there cannot exist any phenomenally based procedure able to simultaneously identify and measure your thought and personal consciousness.
Direct, simultaneous conscious realization of "psychic and occult powers or events" can occur only at the same level in nature of such events in themselves.
Hence the MDC cannot work with respect to "psychic and occult powers or events": Phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.

Flo

29th May 2008, 04:18 AM

All your rhetoric and insults aside, there are some things that people can do that the MDC cannot measure.
Various levels of phenomenal observation and registration do not measure the actual thing that one does in itself.
Very sophisticated laboratory experiments on apparently very highly intelligent rats at MIT where the brain activity is recorded corresponding to mental processes aside, the actual mental process in itself as distinct from the brain scans, cannot be measured.
The complex technical procedures do not lead to an actual simultaneous consciousness of the rat mentality.
So, also, there cannot exist any phenomenally based procedure able to simultaneously identify and measure your thought and personal consciousness.
Direct, simultaneous conscious realization of "psychic and occult powers or events" can occur only at the same level in nature of such events in themselves.
Hence the MDC cannot work with respect to "psychic and occult powers or events": Phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.

You've forgotten to add the word "quantum" to your demonstration ...

Paul

29th May 2008, 06:50 AM

the actual mental process in itself as distinct from the brain scans, cannot be measured.Have you been swapping "ideas" with Gerome Da Gnome? You have, haven't you? Go on, admit it.

Drudgewire

29th May 2008, 06:59 AM

You've forgotten to add the word "quantum" to your demonstration ...

:dl: :dl: :dl:

Paul

29th May 2008, 07:04 AM

You are missing something.Hmm, is that idiotic? It's certainly pointless. And it contains as much substantive material as the rest of maatorc's posts.
.
.
.
.
.
What the heck...
:aaa!

steenkh

29th May 2008, 07:22 AM

the actual mental process in itself as distinct from the brain scans, cannot be measured.
Just like actual gravity in itself, as distinct from its influence on space and matter, cannot be measured?

Soapy Sam

29th May 2008, 07:40 AM

Depending who and where you are, "The Great Wonk" (oops) is either this-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Work

or this-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_tram_network

VulcanWay

29th May 2008, 08:13 AM

1...They may be observable and perceivable, and effects may be measurable, but the 'capability' in itself is outside any form of phenomenal measurement.
This confuses me the most. If you have an ability and there is no effect that can be measured...then for all intents and purposes there is no ability.

As another poster notes, though we may not be able to explain a thing (such as gravity) we can see that there is an effect that occurs and that is measurable and repeatable.

So if these people do indeed have some kind of psychic ability and it has an effect in the world, there should be a way to measure it. Telekinetics can be made to move things without touching them. Precognitives could accurately predict the future. Telepaths could send and/or receive thoughts.

So for you to tap-dance around and say these people couldn't be tested because what they do can't be measured is utter crap and is a standard evasion for those who really have no ability.

And if it can't be measured (some crap like "our collective consciousness makes people not want to be evil") then can they really prove that they have any ability at all? Can they prove to anyone that they affect the world in any way? Absolutely not.

Flo

29th May 2008, 08:52 AM

This confuses me the most. If you have an ability and there is no effect that can be measured...then for all intents and purposes there is no ability.

As another poster notes, though we may not be able to explain a thing (such as gravity) we can see that there is an effect that occurs and that is measurable and repeatable.

So if these people do indeed have some kind of psychic ability and it has an effect in the world, there should be a way to measure it. Telekinetics can be made to move things without touching them. Precognitives could accurately predict the future. Telepaths could send and/or receive thoughts.

So for you to tap-dance around and say these people couldn't be tested because what they do can't be measured is utter crap and is a standard evasion for those who really have no ability.

And if it can't be measured (some crap like "our collective consciousness makes people not want to be evil") then can they really prove that they have any ability at all? Can they prove to anyone that they affect the world in any way? Absolutely not.

Aah, but you must remember that the only reason we can't measure it is that ywe're not worthy ... our uninitiated (and worse, unbelieving) minds forbids us to perceive those etheral truths, blah, blah, blah ...

I've been told repeatedly by a number of unsufferable layabouts who were living a comfortable life due to their mother's/wife's/society's hard work, that without the spiritual protection of the members of the inner circle, and of course the important part they were playing by meditating and studying the secrets of the great work, blah, blah, blah, mankind wouldn't be benefiting from all the good stuff we were presently enjoying, blah, blah, blah, anything rather than get a life and a job. :rolleyes:

maatorc

29th May 2008, 05:10 PM

Just like actual gravity in itself, as distinct from its influence on space and matter, cannot be measured?

Yes, and there is fundamental uncertainty as to its true nature.

maatorc

29th May 2008, 05:15 PM

:dl: :dl: :dl:

Excellent response: So powerful and subtle is the protection of the tradition that YOU (and all the gigglers here)are doing EXACTLY what you (and they) are intended to do. Get it?

maatorc

29th May 2008, 05:21 PM

maatorc

29th May 2008, 05:33 PM

......I've been told repeatedly by a number of unsufferable layabouts who were living a comfortable life due to their mother's/wife's/society's hard work, that without the spiritual protection of the members of the inner circle, and of course the important part they were playing by meditating and studying the secrets of the great work, blah, blah, blah, mankind wouldn't be benefiting from all the good stuff we were presently enjoying, blah, blah, blah, anything rather than get a life and a job. :rolleyes:

What you say here is unfortunately true.
These parasites who deceive themselves are in the same category and position as those who deny because they have not experienced and say that therefore no-one else can experience.

Flo

30th May 2008, 01:06 AM

Excellent response: So powerful and subtle is the protection of the tradition that YOU (and all the gigglers here)are doing EXACTLY what you (and they) are intended to do. Get it?

What you say here is unfortunately true.
These parasites who deceive themselves are in the same category and position as those who deny because they have not experienced and say that therefore no-one else can experience.

You're fooling no one but yourself: you're not worth more than those parasites and are every bit as unable as them to do or demonstrate anything.

devnull

30th May 2008, 02:04 AM

It is unnecessary to talk 'psychic' to understand the principle of incommensurability: Can you prove beyond your verbal claim that you or someone else held a certain thought?

Ofcourse not, but holding a thought is not supernatural. However, if you claim to be able to read minds then that is measurable.

The thing you fail to understand time and time again maatorc - if someone has "powers" of any significance at all *it is measurable*. If it is not measurable then, power or no power, it is equivalent to having no ability at all.

maatorc

30th May 2008, 03:01 AM

1...You're fooling no one but yourself: you're not worth more than those parasites
2...and are every bit as unable as them to do or demonstrate anything.

1...You are doing exactly as you are expected to do.

2...You are saying something here that has no connection with anything I have said. What is it you are fantasizing about?

Flo

30th May 2008, 03:06 AM

1...You are doing exactly as you are expected to do.

I've heard exactly the same "argument" from every single braggard who claims to be in on the big secret about great works and inner circles. You're no different and certainly no better.

2...You are saying something here that has no connection with anything I have said. What is it you are fantasizing about?

It is perfectly relevant: you're unable to back any single one of your claims, be them about the existence of "inner circles" or their so-called achievements.

maatorc

30th May 2008, 03:07 AM

1...Of course not, but holding a thought is not supernatural.
2...However, if you claim to be able to read minds then that is measurable.
3..The thing you fail to understand time and time again maatorc - if someone has "powers" of any significance at all *it is measurable*. If it is not measurable then, power or no power, it is equivalent to having no ability at all.

1...Correct, a thought is not supernatural, and you still cannot prove you held a particular thought!

2...How?

3...What you say is a pseudo-skeptical fallacy: Give an example of measuring any non material power.

maatorc

30th May 2008, 03:13 AM

1...I've heard exactly the same "argument" from every single braggard who claims to be in on the big secret about great works and inner circles. You're no different and certainly no better.
2...It is perfectly relevant: you're unable to back any single one of your claims, be them about the existence of "inner circles" or their so-called achievements.

1...You are doing exactly as you are expected to do.

2...You are saying something here that has no connection with anything I have said.

VulcanWay

30th May 2008, 06:04 AM

Flo

30th May 2008, 06:41 AM

1...You are doing exactly as you are expected to do.

2...You are saying something here that has no connection with anything I have said.

Now you've descended into the kind of argumentation a stubborn 10 years old would use ... pityful.

ETA: and feel free to tell me again I'm doing what is expected ...

Paul

30th May 2008, 06:41 AM

3...What you say is a pseudo-skeptical fallacy: Give an example of measuring any non material power.List some demonstrable non material powers which you believe cannot be measured.

blauregen

30th May 2008, 07:01 AM

I probably should not reveal this, but since i am no longer working with the inner circle and they forgot to have me sign a NDA, i suppose it isn't that grave.

The inner circle promotes skepticism and generally tries to keep the numbers of properly trained adepts low because the fragile nature of the space-time-continuum could be jeopardized with too many untried but capable psychics running unguided while the great work* is done.

Aside from this the process of awakening the inherent psychic powers in talented psychics leads them through an inevitable phase of vulnerability against the dark brotherhood which could easily lead them to madness or evil. Ignorance is their best protection against this.

Randi is actually an agent of the inner circle and charged with ridiculing psychics by debunking fraudulent pretenders of psychic abilities.

*The great work can only be described in an artificial idiom because natural languages aren't fit to express the complex concepts of the great work adequately and precisely.

Don At Work

30th May 2008, 07:29 AM

Not so.
To quote the Great MP:
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

Tristan Chi

30th May 2008, 07:37 AM

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
No, it isn't.

Pup

30th May 2008, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Pup http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3731840#post3731840)
1...So could these people you're speaking of actually win the MDC ......?

1...They are capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'.

Way back up thread, these people could demonstrate their powers in a way acceptable to the MDC. The powers that fall under the scope of the MDC are all measurable, unlike the unmeasurable, unverifiable things I mentioned, like the existence of god.

If they can demonstrate them but they don't, sounds like empty bragging to me. I can run a mile in three minutes, I just don't feel like demonstrating it. Only the most gullible person would believe that.

maatorc

30th May 2008, 06:12 PM

If you claim to read minds it is measurable.
You sit in a room with me and I think of something. If you know my thoughts and confirm to me that what you sensed was actually what I was thinking (say we both write it down on a piece of paper and compare notes) then your ability has been "measured." Why is this concept so difficult to you?

The thought has not been 'directly' measured by taking notes that agree.
If one simultaneously 'knows' the thought of another as the other holds the thought this constitutes a phenomenally unmeasurable realization of the thought at the same level at which the thought occurs.
Proof of your realizing the other person's thought rests exclusively in your head.
Notes that agree would be convincing to many observers and may even be acceptable as a protocol but nothing has actually been measured.
The mental experience of the thought 'in itself' is inaccessible to any form of phenomenally based measurement or direct simultaneous experiential realization.

maatorc

30th May 2008, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pup
1...So could these people you're speaking of actually win the MDC ......?
1...They are capable of demonstrating what the MDC calls 'occult powers or events'.
......
1...If they can demonstrate them but they don't, sounds like empty bragging to me.
2...I can run a mile in three minutes, I just don't feel like demonstrating it. Only the most gullible person would believe that.

1...The point here is that those who can demonstrate these abilities do not publicly claim the ability or in any way brag about it.

2...The rhetoric about needing to brag is merely pseudo-skeptical projection of its values on to another.

Pup

30th May 2008, 08:31 PM

1...The point here is that those who can demonstrate these abilities do not publicly claim the ability or in any way brag about it.

2...The rhetoric about needing to brag is merely pseudo-skeptical projection of its values on to another.

Obviously they claimed it to someone, since you heard about it.

Okay, I'll change my example. I have this friend who can run a mile in three minutes, but he doesn't like to brag about it and he won't demonstrate it. It's no more convincing that way.

maatorc

30th May 2008, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
1...The point here is that those who can demonstrate these abilities do not publicly claim the ability or in any way brag about it.
2...The rhetoric about needing to brag is merely pseudo-skeptical projection of its values on to another.

1...Obviously they claimed it to someone, since you heard about it.
2...Okay, I'll change my example. I have this friend who can run a mile in three minutes, but he doesn't like to brag about it and he won't demonstrate it. It's no more convincing that way.

1...They do not need to claim it: Where needed they demonstrate it. It is not driven by fame and profit.

2...Running a mile in 'three minutes' is a hypothetical public competition, that is driven by fame and profit, without which no-one will train for or compete in.

steenkh

31st May 2008, 01:35 AM

Obviously they claimed it to someone, since you heard about it.
They also bragged about it with impressive sounding labels.

steenkh

31st May 2008, 01:40 AM

Proof of your realizing the other person's thought rests exclusively in your head.
Notes that agree would be convincing to many observers and may even be acceptable as a protocol but nothing has actually been measured.
The mental experience of the thought 'in itself' is inaccessible to any form of phenomenally based measurement or direct simultaneous experiential realization.
It is difficult to "keep the thread clean" when maatorc himself is unable to limit himself to discussing the inner circle!

As I said, maatorc, according to you nothing can be measured at all, because we are always measuring effects, and never the events themselves.

But it is great that you now admit that it is possible to make a protocol based on a comparison of what thoughts are claimed to be sent, and what thoughts are claimed to be received.

maatorc

31st May 2008, 02:14 AM

It is difficult to "keep the thread clean" when maatorc himself is unable to limit himself to discussing the inner circle!......

He is probably an ok person, but you will have to blame
Originally Posted by VulcanWay View Post
If you claim to read minds it is measurable.
You sit in a room with me and I think of something. If you know my thoughts and confirm to me that what you sensed was actually what I was thinking (say we both write it down on a piece of paper and compare notes) then your ability has been "measured." Why is this concept so difficult to you?
for this digression.

Be a little more realistic!

Paul

31st May 2008, 05:12 AM

1...They do not need to claim it:Nobody said they need to claim any ability, however, if you are aware of it they have made a de facto claim.

Where needed they demonstrate it.How, you just claimed it was impossible?

It is not driven by fame and profit.Who said it was?

2...Running a mile in 'three minutes' is a hypothetical public competition,There was no mention of it being public or competitive (except in the sense that the existence of timing make it a competition) in the original example.

that is driven by fame and profit,Someone who says they can run reasonably quickly, but won't show anyone, is hardly in it for the fame and fortune.

without which no-one will train for or compete in.Patent nonsense; people do difficult, dangerous, pointless things all the time simply for the challenge, their own amusement or even - and this would appear to be an alien concept to your magical mystery men - for the benefit of others.

maatorc

4th June 2008, 09:45 PM

1...Nobody said they need to claim any ability, however, if you are aware of it they have made a de facto claim.
2...How, you just claimed it was impossible?
3...Who said it was?

1...Rubbish.
2...Nonsense.
3...It is implicit in the MDC.

Paul

5th June 2008, 04:47 AM

1...Rubbish.
2...Nonsense.
3...It is implicit in the MDC.Don't strain yourself considering an appropriate answer answer.

Anyway, which part of 1 is rubbish? They either expressed to another person the nature of their supposed abilities, thus making a claim that they exist, or they didn't and you are making it up.

2. If it is nonsense, and they can demonstrate their mystical abilities, this quote must also be nonsense: The thought has not been 'directly' measured by taking notes that agree.
If one simultaneously 'knows' the thought of another as the other holds the thought this constitutes a phenomenally unmeasurable realization of the thought at the same level at which the thought occurs.
Proof of your realizing the other person's thought rests exclusively in your head.
Notes that agree would be convincing to many observers and may even be acceptable as a protocol but nothing has actually been measured.
The mental experience of the thought 'in itself' is inaccessible to any form of phenomenally based measurement or direct simultaneous experiential realization. So, again which is it. Is it you or the secret mentalist who are making things up?

3. That is nonsense. There is no requirement to keep the money and no need for an applicant to make any claims except what they can do; no requirement to expose any secret societies, or for publicity beyond any inherent in taking the challenge.

Aepervius

5th June 2008, 05:50 AM

OMG. Maartoc, let me say you this, as somebody which taught other, and published some paper : If you are unable to put a sentence or paragraph you just explained in a simpler form, plain English, then either you don't understand what just wrote yourself, or you are trying to hide your lack of knowledge behind the complexity of your sentences. Now go back to the 3 or 4 last explanation which you gave (each spanning over 5 to 10 lines) and explain them again in plain simple English. If you are unable to, then you just demonstrated again this...

pchams

5th June 2008, 04:07 PM

maatorc

5th June 2008, 05:19 PM

maatorc,
You have chastised basically the whole forum for being unskeptical, for not taking a position.
One cannot take a position, as you have, as far as I can tell, made no claim.
Please state your claim, and your position on it, or this is pointless.
Didn't Inner Circle do the theme to "Cops"? ;)

I am not making claims vis-a-vis the MDC, and it is a nonsense to claim that one must make a claim.
I am discussing the principle the MDC cannot measure what it is setting out to judge.
The 'Inner Circle' you refer to cannot have any connection with what I mean by an 'inner school'.
My comments are not about me, but are about the fundamental and insurmountable flaw in the MDC based on the incommensurability of phenomena and noumena.
No matter how much one wants to deny this message or discredit the messenger, it will not go away: It is the reason the MDC cannot work with respect to what it calls 'psychic or occult powers or events'.

pchams

5th June 2008, 07:50 PM

it is a nonsense to claim that one must make a claim.

It is absolutely NOT nonsense to ask you to make a claim when you attack people for not taking a position.
You have nothing but a sack of supposition.

pchams

5th June 2008, 08:00 PM

I am not making claims vis-a-vis the MDC, and it is a nonsense to claim that one must make a claim.
I am discussing the principle the MDC cannot measure what it is setting out to judge.
The 'Inner Circle' you refer to cannot have any connection with what I mean by an 'inner school'.
My comments are not about me, but are about the fundamental and insurmountable flaw in the MDC based on the incommensurability of phenomena and noumena.
No matter how much one wants to deny this message or discredit the messenger, it will not go away: It is the reason the MDC cannot work with respect to what it calls 'psychic or occult powers or events'.
Ah, "inner school". Now we are getting somewhere.
What inner school teaches what cannot be measured? (Hello Tai Chi)
Imaginary instances are by definition immeasurable.
You may imagine them without interference by me, rest assured.
I'm also fairly sure that the MDC will never observe the unobservable.

JoeEllison

5th June 2008, 08:02 PM

Does anyone here NOT see how illogical maatorc's position is? It is an utter waste of time, since he is either unwilling or unable to give a coherent, meaningful, and logical accounting of the foundations of his claims.

pchams

5th June 2008, 08:19 PM

Kant's noumenon will never be known in maatorc's infinite universes, as he can never reach the point where it will be known. It can't be useful in this thread, or for the MDC. I agree maatorc.
I used to have nightmares like this as a child.

<shudder>

Mods, this is clearly philosophy.

maatorc

6th June 2008, 12:59 AM

maatorc

6th June 2008, 05:43 AM

Ah, "inner school". Now we are getting somewhere.
What inner school teaches what cannot be measured?...

Read this thread, as it is clear you have not, and do not expect everything to be repeated for your benefit as late arrival.

steenkh

6th June 2008, 08:52 AM

Read this thread, as it is clear you have not, and do not expect everything to be repeated for your benefit as late arrival.
For once, I agree with maatorc: His unsupported claims are not fit for repetition. It is better to read the thread over and over again than to have the stuff rehashed here.

maatorc

6th June 2008, 06:31 PM

For once, I agree with maatorc: His unsupported claims are not fit for repetition.

If this is true, I am, here with you, in the very best of company!

Paul

7th June 2008, 03:56 AM

Even your attempted insults make no sense.

Senex

7th June 2008, 08:30 AM

Reading this thread was time I'll never have back.

I am not making claims vis-a-vis the MDC, and it is a nonsense to claim that one must make a claim.
Did you know that MDC stands for Million Dollar Challenge? If you don't have/know of a claim that can be challenged why are you concerned about the MDC?
I am discussing the principle the MDC cannot measure what it is setting out to judge.
It measures what the claim claims.
The 'Inner Circle' you refer to cannot have any connection with what I mean by an 'inner school'.
Do you know 'Inner Circle' is a term used by woos to seperate fools from their money? If you are deemed worthy (and everyone whose check doesn't bounce is) you can be one of the few who can take advantage of this wonderful opportunity the Inner Circle provides! Unfortunately the opportunity always comes with a cost that goes to the people running the Inner Circle. The inner circle never provides what it claims (even in this case when it claims nothing, it will just take your money and not give you that I'm proud to be a member feeling).

My comments are not about me, but are about the fundamental and insurmountable flaw in the MDC based on the incommensurability of phenomena and noumena.
Your comments are more about your fundamental and insurmountable problem with putting nouns and verbs together in a way that conveys any meaning.
No matter how much one wants to deny this message or discredit the messenger, it will not go away: It is the reason the MDC cannot work with respect to what it calls 'psychic or occult powers or events'.

It's hard to deny the message when you have posted all over this thread without giving a message. If you wish the Inner Circle/School discussed on this forum I respectfully ask you to find another spokesman or point to another webpage or forum where whatever you are trying to say is said in plain English.

maatorc

7th June 2008, 06:53 PM

...maatorc...I am discussing the principle the MDC cannot measure what it is setting out to judge.
1...It measures what the claim claims.

...maatorc...No matter how much one wants to deny this message or discredit the messenger, it will not go away: It is the reason the MDC cannot work with respect to what it calls 'psychic or occult powers or events'.
2...It's hard to deny the message when you have posted all over this thread without giving a message.
3...If you wish the Inner Circle/School discussed on this forum I respectfully ask you to find another spokesman or point to another webpage or forum where whatever you are trying to say is said in plain English.

1...There are some claims that the MDC cannot measure, such as one discussed in post 120. And note it does not even deal with anything you might want to call paranormal or psychic or occult.

2...The message is that phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.

3...The 'inner school' I am referring to consists of those who have completed 'The Great Work'.

Senex

8th June 2008, 04:11 AM

Wow, not only did you address all my questions, you also put me in my place :rolleyes:

1...There are some claims that the MDC cannot measure, such as one discussed in post 120. And note it does not even deal with anything you might want to call paranormal or psychic or occult.

Are you familiar with a fine TV show called The X-Files? It deals with the paranormal, the psychic and the occult in a very entertaining way. Someone who claims to have paranormal powers might be measured by the MDC group by that person's ability to make himself invisible to a group of people in a room and move a pitcher of water from one side of the table to the other. If you can do that you win the million. A psychic might have won two previous lotteries and walk into the JREF offices and state they will predict tomorrows Florida lottery numbers. Add a million to that psychic's winnings! An occult claimant could be given a couple of photos of people with a lock of their hair, if the claimant can give those two people chicken pox in a few days from a distance give that person a million!

Do you want to deconstruct your oft referred to post #120? Why not. My dog can wait till 6:15 on a Sunday to be fed.
Post #120
The thought has not been 'directly' measured by taking notes that agree.
This may be the problem. If by notes you mean the written word then you may be projecting your inability to write onto other people. If you could try and read my mind right now and said "You think me dim witted." I would call that a hit!
If one simultaneously 'knows' the thought of another as the other holds the thought this constitutes a phenomenally unmeasurable realization of the thought at the same level at which the thought occurs.
Hey, if I'm thinking of the Queen of Clubs and you say 'The Queen of Clubs' -- well that's close enough for me.
Proof of your realizing the other person's thought rests exclusively in your head.
And ability to communicate those thoughts if you want the million.
Notes that agree would be convincing to many observers and may even be acceptable as a protocol but nothing has actually been measured.
Most of the people on this board will disagree. A number of successful remote viewing 'notes' can be measured and judged a win.
The mental experience of the thought 'in itself' is inaccessible to any form of phenomenally based measurement or direct simultaneous experiential realization.
Look at this sentence. Do you even know what it means? Could you have written this idea less cryptically?

How attractive I think I find a woman might be measured by some direct simultaneous experiential realization - but I'm only guessing this is what you mean.

2...The message is that phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.
This is the psycobabble that is limiting your thinking. You clearly aren't so smart that English is unable to put your ideas down on paper (or cyberspace).

3...The 'inner school' I am referring to consists of those who have completed 'The Great Work'.
Tell the truth. Are these inner school/circle people expecting money from you at some time in the future? If they are they are trying to cheat you.

steenkh

8th June 2008, 04:20 AM

Maatorc's famous "post 120" goes like this:The thought has not been 'directly' measured by taking notes that agree.
If one simultaneously 'knows' the thought of another as the other holds the thought this constitutes a phenomenally unmeasurable realization of the thought at the same level at which the thought occurs.
Proof of your realizing the other person's thought rests exclusively in your head.
Notes that agree would be convincing to many observers and may even be acceptable as a protocol but nothing has actually been measured.
The mental experience of the thought 'in itself' is inaccessible to any form of phenomenally based measurement or direct simultaneous experiential realization.
It is meaningless babble that he has spewed out again and again. He has this strange idea that if a person says something, it is not proof that he has thought something, but only that he has said something. The same can be said of anything: we cannot prove gravity exists, because we can only measure the effect of gravity, and so on.

Pup

8th June 2008, 07:14 AM

He has this strange idea that if a person says something, it is not proof that he has thought something, but only that he has said something. The same can be said of anything: we cannot prove gravity exists, because we can only measure the effect of gravity, and so on.

Exactly. So what makes Maatorc's inner circle folks a laughing stock is that he/they use that as an excuse not to demonstrate the effect of their powers, even when he admits they could pass the MDC if they wanted to.

Let's see the demonstration of something unexplainable, then we'll worry about what actually caused it.

Without a demonstration, the obvious conclusion is that they actually can't do anything unexplainable by current science, and they're just reaching for excuses not to have to demonstrate it so they can keep fooling the gullible

maatorc

8th June 2008, 04:53 PM

maatorc-
Notes that agree would be convincing to many observers and may even be acceptable as a protocol but nothing has actually been measured.

1...Most of the people on this board will disagree. A number of successful remote viewing 'notes' can be measured and judged a win.
maatorc-
The mental experience of the thought 'in itself' is inaccessible to any form of phenomenally based measurement or direct simultaneous experiential realization.
2...Look at this sentence. Do you even know what it means? Could you have written this idea less cryptically?
maatorc-
3...The message is that phenomena and noumena are incommensurable.
This is the psyc(h)obabble that is limiting your thinking...

1...The notes do not actually measure the remote viewing, nor is the remote viewing experienced by the note takers.

2...You cannot phenomenally measure a strictly mental event.

3...You are blaming others for you inability to comprehend an essentially very simple concept, as explained in (2).

Dancing David

8th June 2008, 04:53 PM

Maatorc,

You can apply the principles of science to all things, in my thrity years of practice as a shaman, witch and cermonial magicain I have found that most people don't want to apply the methods of science.

For example:
1. Effects of ritual practice are supernatural in nature (they have agents such as spirits, demons, gods and familiars).

2. Effects of ritual are psychological in nature they involve the perceptual nature of organic beings.

Now in many trials I have never found any evidence that would be explained by (1) that can not be explained by (2). I have found zero evidence to date that external forces outside of psychology (in the neurobiological sense) are involved.

Furthermore I have found that most practioners know little to nothing of the traditional underpinnings of what they do. They open themselves to astral zombies, see spirits when they are not in the sacred place and all sorts of stupid stuff. This is like playing with electricity without insulation and cicuit brealers.

Any person who claims to have finished the Great Work is a fool, the enlightement of an individual is just the beggining. You can no more finish the Great Work than you can have provided food, shelter, peace and health to all human beings.

Some one has most likely mistakn the conversation with the holy gaurdian angel for the Great Work. there are still poor people, there is still suffering, oppresion and inequality ergo tyhe Great Work, the enlightement of humankind has not been compleated.

The Temple has not been reconstructed, in other words, the Kingdom of Heaven is not manifest.

Gosh, didn't you even read the Illuminati, those who claim to have acomplished the Great Work are fools or vastly evil.

All hail Eris!

ra ra ra, sis boom bah, he is the sun god he is the fun god, ra, ra ,ra

I actually prefer Freya.

Dancing David

8th June 2008, 04:59 PM

1...The notes do not actually measure the remote viewing, nor is the remote viewing experienced by the note takers.

2...You cannot phenomenally measure a strictly mental event.

That is an assumption, not anything else.

The validity of the report is a seperate issue.

You can record your phenomena.

DUH.

Or to be nicer as the buddha put it:

If you blind yourself do you see better?

3...You are blaming others for you inability to comprehend an essentially very simple concept.

No, I suspect you are engaging in mish mosh thinking of the first sort.

I remind you to not be so bull headed as to assert you know the truth of reality.

Test it, poke the side of your eye, are the lines you see real or NOT?

You don'y like the fact that remote viweing has no substantial basis is seeing anything outside the fourcornered room of the person who visualizes. Vague searches for meaning in an associative perceptual framework are also called 'magical thinking'. If it did work, the CIA and everybody would use it. It didn't pan out.

It is the reality of thier perceptions, but not the reality of the universe.
One is a smaller subset of the other.

maatorc

9th June 2008, 12:38 AM

Maatorc,
You can apply the principles of science to all things, in my thrity years of practice as a shaman, witch and cermonial magicain I have found that most people don't want to apply the methods of science....I actually prefer Freya.

I will be honest and say I do not actually understand what you are talking about, and also get the impression that you do not know either.

maatorc

9th June 2008, 12:44 AM

1...That is an assumption, not anything else.
The validity of the report is a seperate issue.
You can record your phenomena.
2...DUH.
Or to be nicer as the buddha put it:
If you blind yourself do you see better?
No, I suspect you are engaging in mish mosh thinking of the first sort.
I remind you to not be so bull headed as to assert you know the truth of reality.
Test it, poke the side of your eye, are the lines you see real or NOT?
You don'y like the fact that remote viweing has no substantial basis is seeing anything outside the fourcornered room of the person who visualizes. Vague searches for meaning in an associative perceptual framework are also called 'magical thinking'. If it did work, the CIA and everybody would use it. It didn't pan out.
It is the reality of thier perceptions, but not the reality of the universe.
One is a smaller subset of the other.

1...It seems you do not grasp what has been said.
2...All this has no connection with what I am discussing.

maatorc

9th June 2008, 12:54 AM

To restate the point of this -split- thread:
1...Members of the inner school of those able to prove the truth of psychic reality will not publicly do so for curiosity, entertainment, or to indulge the merely skeptical.
2...Material, physical consciousness cannot measure strictly mental events: Phenomena and noumena are incommensurable, and are therefore beyond proof or disproof by the MDC.

JoeEllison

9th June 2008, 12:54 AM

Maatorc's famous "post 120" goes like this:
It is meaningless babble that he has spewed out again and again. He has this strange idea that if a person says something, it is not proof that he has thought something, but only that he has said something. The same can be said of anything: we cannot prove gravity exists, because we can only measure the effect of gravity, and so on.

Right, the same way we cannot prove that electricity exists... it is a pretty stupid excuse, but one that maatorc repeats as though it were some sort of deep thought.

maatorc

9th June 2008, 03:51 AM

Maatorc's famous "post 120" goes like this:
It is meaningless babble that he has spewed out again and again. He has this strange idea that if a person says something, it is not proof that he has thought something, but only that he has said something. The same can be said of anything: we cannot prove gravity exists, because we can only measure the effect of gravity, and so on.

On this basis, then, any claimant to 'psychic or occult powers' must automatically be accepted by the MDC and paid the $1M. According to your above reasoning, if one claims they had a strictly mental experience, such as a thought, or a psychic event, that is sufficient grounds to accept the claim as true: Well done!

Worm

9th June 2008, 04:25 AM

The MDC doesn't test for the ability, it tests for the effects of the ability.

steenkh

9th June 2008, 05:17 AM

On this basis, then, any claimant to 'psychic or occult powers' must automatically be accepted by the MDC and paid the $1M. According to your above reasoning, if one claims they had a strictly mental experience, such as a thought, or a psychic event, that is sufficient grounds to accept the claim as true: Well done!
The JREF does not subscribe to your strange ideas, and sensibly conclude that in fact it is possible to prove if psychic powers exist, simply by testing for their effects. They leave it to the claimants to actually state what demonstration they will make, and claimants who do not present the JREF with a testable claim will not be accepted.

It is really very simple.

Paul

9th June 2008, 05:51 AM

To restate the point of this -split- thread:
1...Members of the inner school of those able to prove the truth of psychic reality will not publicly do so for curiosity, entertainment, or to indulge the merely skeptical.How, exactly, do you know that there are members who can prove the truth, and that they will not?

2...Material, physical consciousness cannot measure strictly mental eventsWhat is physical consciousness?

steenkh

9th June 2008, 06:15 AM

How, exactly, do you know that there are members who can prove the truth, and that they will not?
One of them probably said "I am able to prove the truth of psychic reality, but will not publicly do so for curiosity, entertainment, or to indulge the merely skeptical". And he believed it!

Please notice that in the inner school it is not allowed to be skeptical of their claims.

Paul

9th June 2008, 07:20 AM

It would also be sensible if one of the rules of the inner school was "do not tell random strangers about the inner school, especially not those whose default position is opposed to unsubstantiated claims of the paranormal". Or words to that effect anyway, probably something more flowery with an overtone of subtle menace and the implication of ancient authority.

maatorc

9th June 2008, 06:07 PM

The JREF does not subscribe to your strange ideas, and sensibly conclude that in fact it is possible to prove if psychic powers exist, simply by testing for their effects......

In that case the MDC can be immediately abandoned as the whole world is full of what can pass as effects of psychic powers which cannot be proved or disproved to be psychic powers, such as stage magic by James Randi or cold reading by Michael Shermer, mimicking psychic experiences and occult powers; not to mention the multitude of claimants for actual psychic or occult powers.

steenkh

10th June 2008, 05:24 AM

In that case the MDC can be immediately abandoned as the whole world is full of what can pass as effects of psychic powers which cannot be proved or disproved to be psychic powers, such as stage magic by James Randi or cold reading by Michael Shermer, mimicking psychic experiences and occult powers; not to mention the multitude of claimants for actual psychic or occult powers.
You are dead wrong that stage magic cannot be proved or disproved: Stage magic cannot be performed under controlled conditions. Magicians know this, or they would have taken the million dollars long ago.

In fact, stage magic has been investigated by scientists and passed for telekinesis or ESP because many scientists do not have the skill to implement proper controls, see for instance the way Uri Geller has been tested. This may be what you were thinking of.

It is well known that a clever performer could try to outwit James Randi or the JREF to take the money, but nobody have actually tried it.

Dancing David

10th June 2008, 06:05 AM

I will be honest and say I do not actually understand what you are talking about, and also get the impression that you do not know either.

You have just used a specific semantic argument to draw a distinction between phenomena and 'things in and of themselves', the data od phenomena can be gathered, the validity is another issue.

You are arguing from the basis that because phenomena are private events that they can not be studied or correlated.

That makes you a dualist.

And someone who doesn't read what other people post.

Dancing David

10th June 2008, 06:10 AM

Dancing David

10th June 2008, 06:18 AM

To restate the point of this -split- thread:
1...Members of the inner school of those able to prove the truth of psychic reality will not publicly do so for curiosity, entertainment, or to indulge the merely skeptical.

What size is your sample set?
How do you know that you have knowledge of the totality of the 'inner school of those able to prove the truth of psychic reality' in your set.
What makes you presuppose that a some arbitrary and moral argument would control all members of the set?
Do all scotsmen wear kilts?

You know you are more lacking in education on this subject than you think.

This smacks of Blavatsky, Scientology and every preacher of foolish inner truth.

This is not a teaching of most of the traditions, this is some Golden Dawn (mainly Dion Fortune) type fantasy where those with power would only use it wisely, a dangerous and childish assumption.

Your whole argument is set on presupposition of your conclusion.

What is your sample size, why would people with psychic power have any different makeup than most people?

How do you know anything about your data set?

How many people who claim psychic poweres have you met?

Why do most traditions of 'supernatural' teachings discuss the 'dark side'. Does you perfect happy place exist.

What do you think the Great Work is, it has not been done.

Dancing David

10th June 2008, 06:20 AM

Those in the inner circle have completed what is called "The Great Work".

No they have completed some personal goal which has nothing to do with the Great Work or they are very selfish and focused inwards.

You have just stolen a term with no understanding of it's origins.

poseur.

Dancing David

10th June 2008, 06:30 AM

It is so described because its undertaking demands a 'Great Effort'.

Uh huh, see right here Maatorc, this shows you to be a wannabe, the Great Work is well defined and in common usage in many circles.

You are just using it in some "No Girls Allowed" Secret Clubhouse and seem to not know what it is.

Since you are a poseur as shown by the fact that you won't answer a simple question, one that has answers everywhere for those who look.

The Great Work:

-The establishment of a network to help all people find divinity.
-The enlightenment of mankind.
-The rebuilding of the Temple (in masonic orders)
-The establishment of the 'Kingdom of Heaven' (in Jesus terms)
-To make the equality, freedom and safety of all people manifest (the fathers of the USA)
-The balance in Beauty of eight paths that transcend the two veils and establishes the heart of the tree (the Kabbalah)
-The Middle Kingdom in harmony (The Chinese Tao)

You Maatorc have been misled. The truth is never hidden, your teachers are not follow