"Lost Tribe" found in Brazil

[lionking]

I just saw a report on TV news about a tribe found in the Amazon jungle. There was footage of a number of men emerging from thatched huts shooting arrows at a cameraman in a heilcopter. The report stated that these people have had no previous contact with the "outside world".

This brought to mind a report some years ago of a group of aborigines emerging from the Australian desert who allegedly had no contact with white inhabitants of the country. This turned out to be complete BS.

So the question is, can there be a group of people anywhere in the world, including this tribe, so cut off everyone else that they have no knowledge of modern technology or culture?

[lionking]

I should add that I hope this report is true, but seriously doubt it.

[Badger]

What was the distance between chopper and tribesmen?

I ask because you'd figure the guys using the arrows would know how far they go, and they wouldn't just waste 'em for no reason, unless something was, like, staged?

[lionking]

It looked like about 50 feet. But I would still put my money on staged.

[Gazpacho]

Wikipedia to the rescue (FWIW): Uncontacted peoples

Brazil does appear to have quite a lot of them.

[Soapy Sam]

Even more surprising is that I read a tribe in Brazil has just discovered a lost world which includes technological civilisations and McDonalds.

[lionking]

Wikipedia to the rescue (FWIW): Uncontacted peoples

Brazil does appear to have quite a lot of them.
Well I will have to research this a bit more as I believe that the Pintubi people mentioned in wikipedia were found to be in receipt of social security benefits.

[LibraryLady]

*cough* Tasaday *cough*

[lionking]

Thanks LibraryLady. I am sure most are hoaxes like Tasaday. But is it still possible for an "uncontacted" tribe to exist?

[AshB]

In response to the list of uncontacted peoples posted above, how is it possible to know these people exist if they are uncontacted?
Does it mean we have seen them but they have not seen us?
And about the amazon tribe, i saw a photo of them in todays paper, and read it with much enthusiam and an open mind, as the concept of a 'lost tribe' facinated me.
But reading this thread, and thinking about it seriously, it does appear to be staged.
The paper claimed the tribe may have thought of the chopper as a large bird or a god/spirit like entity. And also, the photo looks like more than 50 feet up if you take into account the fact there may have been a zoom used. Even so, why would the helicopter fly so low over this particular section of jungle. It is almost as if they expected to find something.
Correct me if anything i have said is wrong, I am open to new ideas.

[lionking]

For what it's worth, I agree with you AshB and welcome to the forum.

[The Fool]

For what it's worth, I agree with you AshB and welcome to the forum.
This is nothing special. There are groups of hominids in the Back bar of my local pub that appear to have never had any contact with western civilization.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

"Lost Tribe" found in Brazil.



I am certain they know where they are, and as such they are not lost. ;)

[lionking]

Adding nothing Jerome!

[Cleon]

In response to the list of uncontacted peoples posted above, how is it possible to know these people exist if they are uncontacted?
Does it mean we have seen them but they have not seen us?

Sometimes, yes.

Sometimes it means there are scattered reports of people encountering some unidentified native group, but nothing confirms.

Sometimes it means they've had regular or sporadic contact with other, known, native groups in the region, but not with "civilization."


The paper claimed the tribe may have thought of the chopper as a large bird or a god/spirit like entity.

Well, sometimes you can take the beliefs of other native groups in the region, find common strains of thought, and extrapolate the possibilities.

More often, however, journalists are simply talking out of their butts.

And also, the photo looks like more than 50 feet up if you take into account the fact there may have been a zoom used. Even so, why would the helicopter fly so low over this particular section of jungle. It is almost as if they expected to find something.
Correct me if anything i have said is wrong, I am open to new ideas.

Well, they were probably looking for the group in question, to confirm/deny their existence.

A helicopter seems a bit intrusive, but there's an awful lot of nothing out there, and it would take a good long while to do so by foot.

[fuelair]

*cough* Tasaday *cough*

That's *cough* gentle Tasaday *cough*!:)

[fuelair]

Sometimes, yes.

Sometimes it means there are scattered reports of people encountering some unidentified native group, but nothing confirms.

Sometimes it means they've had regular or sporadic contact with other, known, native groups in the region, but not with "civilization."



Well, sometimes you can take the beliefs of other native groups in the region, find common strains of thought, and extrapolate the possibilities.

More often, however, journalists are simply talking out of their butts.



Well, they were probably looking for the group in question, to confirm/deny their existence.

A helicopter seems a bit intrusive, but there's an awful lot of nothing out there, and it would take a good long while to do so by foot.Plus a large noisy "bird" is likely to get their undivided attention.:)

[LibraryLady]

In response to the list of uncontacted peoples posted above, how is it possible to know these people exist if they are uncontacted?
Does it mean we have seen them but they have not seen us?
And about the amazon tribe, i saw a photo of them in todays paper, and read it with much enthusiam and an open mind, as the concept of a 'lost tribe' facinated me.
But reading this thread, and thinking about it seriously, it does appear to be staged.
The paper claimed the tribe may have thought of the chopper as a large bird or a god/spirit like entity. And also, the photo looks like more than 50 feet up if you take into account the fact there may have been a zoom used. Even so, why would the helicopter fly so low over this particular section of jungle. It is almost as if they expected to find something.
Correct me if anything i have said is wrong, I am open to new ideas.

You said everything right, and welcome, indeed.

ETA: I was about your age when the Tasaday hoax was perpetrated. It helped me to start thinking critically, so maybe the Marcos government actually managed to accidentally do some good.

If you're not familiar with the story of the Tasaday, here's a linky. (http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Stone_Age_Tasaday/)

[Checkmite]

Firstly, the photo shows the men with bows raised and "aimed"; there is nothing to show that they actually fired any arrows. Secondly, if these fellows had never seen a helicopter (the news article I read said it was actually a small plane) before, they'd have no idea how big it is, and therefore - seen against the backdrop of the sky - they'd have no idea how far away it is; so they wouldn't automatically deduce that it was too far away for an arrow.

Uncontacted, in the sense used here, means "haven't met modern civilization yet". Knowledge of these uncontacted tribes comes from other primitive peoples who have been contacted by modern civilization, and who have at some point seperately contacted the uncontacted peoples. Does that make sense?

Picture looks fake to me.

[Beerina]

What was the distance between chopper and tribesmen?

I ask because you'd figure the guys using the arrows would know how far they go, and they wouldn't just waste 'em for no reason, unless something was, like, staged?

Because if I were a tribesman, the first thing I would do is shoot at a giant flying dragon that was louder and angrier than the worst jungle lion or tiger or leopard or whatever.

[Skeptical Greg]

......why would the helicopter fly so low over this particular section of jungle.

Because they spotted a clearing in a larger area they were flying over ?

This story plays down the " lost " angle , and depicts them as one of several ' un-contacted ' tribes..

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23783737-5005961,00.html

I'm reminded of the one liner:


From out of the deepest darkest jungle, comes the cry of the lost tribe..

" Where the **** are we ? ! "

Please do not circumvent the autocensor.

[King of the Americas]

If a culture/tribe of 'uncontacted' HUMANS could exist without having been seen or investigated, why couldn't a NON-human bipedal species also exist?

I know it is quite an unrelated leap, but it was the first thing I thought of, when I read the story...

How, long before we stumble upon a nest of bigfoots?

[Billdave2]

If a culture/tribe of 'uncontacted' HUMANS could exist without having been seen or investigated, why couldn't a NON-human bipedal species also exist?

I know it is quite an unrelated leap, but it was the first thing I thought of, when I read the story...

How, long before we stumble upon a nest of bigfoots?

Uncontacted =/= unknown. I am sure these people (if it isn't a hoax) have left some signs of their existence, like bones, tools, abandoned villages, etc. We have not one single scrap from a bigfoot.

[Pardalis]

Picture looks fake to me.

Yeah me too, they seem very "colorful", except one woman. Let's see how this pans out.

[Cleon]

Yeah me too, they seem very "colorful", except one woman. Let's see how this pans out.

Body paint is widely used among other groups in the region, like the Yanomamo. It would be more unusual if they weren't wearing any.

[Luciana]

It's not a hoax or, at least, it's so probable that it doesn't have to be.

There are 68 uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, according to the Ministry of Indigenous Affairs. Entire reservations have been created only to protect those tribes in their midst. Considering the continental dimensions of the forest, it's entirely possible to know the edges of a major area and not know exactly what's in there.

Apart from the picture, there are TV footages of huts and plantations.

What uncontacted means? It means that the "white men" never approached them with civilization purposes. Their existence is known because it has been reported by other tribes, fishermen, government officials who locate them but keep a safe distance. Actually, it can be quite dangerous to approach them. Some groups are made of indians who escaped the white men when they came, who refused to be "civilized" the first time. So they disappeared in the forest. They don't want to be contacted.

And if they ever stumbled upon illegal loggers and miners, they have every reason to be afraid of the white men (even if they're not white at all). A government officer wouldn't shoot, but wouldn't approach them either.

The piece of news here is that someone hit the jackpot and managed to find one of the uncontacted tribes in the middle of the "green inferno" and point a camera at them.

Just last year they found a group of some 80 indians who no one knew were alive and well before. Their tribe and culture was well-known, but they had fleed 50 years earlier outraged because of the white invasion. So it's hard to classify that one. Uncontacted? Not quite. Disappeared? Technically, yes.

[Pardalis]

Body paint is widely used among other groups in the region, like the Yanomamo. It would be more unusual if they weren't wearing any.

I don't know, are they constantly wearing body paint? I was under the impression they did that for ceremonies. Did the airplane just happen to stumble on a ceremony?

And what's with this blue woman following the hunters, why isn't she hiding in the hut? She looks like she's taken out of the movie "Quest For Fire (http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/0/67220-large.jpg)".

Anyway, it could be true but it does seem a little staged.

[Cleon]

I don't know, are they constantly wearing body paint? I was under the impression they did that for ceremonies. Did the airplane just happen to stumble on a ceremony?

I (obviously) can't speak to this group specifically, but for the Yanomamo, it's worn for pretty much everything. They use it for ceremonies, they use it for hunting, they use it for war, they use it as a fashion statement.


And what's with this blue woman following the hunters, why isn't she hiding in the hut?

'Cause docile women are not a universal trait? :confused:

[Cleon]

It's not a hoax or, at least, it's so probable that it doesn't have to be.

There are 68 uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, according to the Ministry of Indigenous Affairs. Entire reservations have been created only to protect those tribes in their midst. Considering the continental dimensions of the forest, it's entirely possible to know the edges of a major area and not know exactly what's in there.

Apart from the picture, there are TV footages of huts and plantations.

What uncontacted means? It means that the "white men" never approached them with civilization purposes. Their existence is known because it has been reported by other tribes, fishermen, government officials who locate them but keep a safe distance. Actually, it can be quite dangerous to approach them. Some groups are made of indians who escaped the white men when they came, who refused to be "civilized" the first time. So they disappeared in the forest. They don't want to be contacted.

And if they ever stumbled upon illegal loggers and miners, they have every reason to be afraid of the white men (even if they're not white at all). A government officer wouldn't shoot, but wouldn't approach them either.

The piece of news here is that someone hit the jackpot and managed to find one of the uncontacted tribes in the middle of the "green inferno" and point a camera at them.

Just last year they found a group of some 80 indians who no one knew were alive and well before. Their tribe and culture was well-known, but they had fleed 50 years earlier outraged because of the white invasion. So it's hard to classify that one. Uncontacted? Not quite. Disappeared? Technically, yes.

What she said. :)

I don't think people realize just how much nothing there is in the Amazon. The word "vast" doesn't do it justice.

[WildCat]

I don't know why people would think this was staged. Plenty of uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, Brazil's government really has no reason to stage this particular event.

[geni]

Because if I were a tribesman, the first thing I would do is shoot at a giant flying dragon that was louder and angrier than the worst jungle lion or tiger or leopard or whatever.

By this stage any group that that doesn't tend to be rather hostile to outside people and things is likely to have been firmly contacted.

[William Parcher]

How, long before we stumble upon a nest of bigfoots?

If they do not exist, we will never find a "tribe" of them let alone any individual. If people want to pretend that they exist, we will continue to get non-confirmatory evidence. Bigfoot has never risen above mythical status and all of the presented evidence can be faked.

Presumably, this tribe could be photographed again by repeating the fly-over which would virtually eliminate the possibility of a staged hoax. Bigfooters are already talking about this news story and making hopeful comparisons. I think the context is so different that they are truly unrelated situations.

[Pardalis]

I don't know why people would think this was staged. Plenty of uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, Brazil's government really has no reason to stage this particular event.

You may be right, maybe it's a case of it's "too cool to be true", like reality often turns out to be.

[lionking]

It's not a hoax or, at least, it's so probable that it doesn't have to be.

There are 68 uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, according to the Ministry of Indigenous Affairs. Entire reservations have been created only to protect those tribes in their midst. Considering the continental dimensions of the forest, it's entirely possible to know the edges of a major area and not know exactly what's in there.

Apart from the picture, there are TV footages of huts and plantations.

What uncontacted means? It means that the "white men" never approached them with civilization purposes. Their existence is known because it has been reported by other tribes, fishermen, government officials who locate them but keep a safe distance. Actually, it can be quite dangerous to approach them. Some groups are made of indians who escaped the white men when they came, who refused to be "civilized" the first time. So they disappeared in the forest. They don't want to be contacted.

And if they ever stumbled upon illegal loggers and miners, they have every reason to be afraid of the white men (even if they're not white at all). A government officer wouldn't shoot, but wouldn't approach them either.

The piece of news here is that someone hit the jackpot and managed to find one of the uncontacted tribes in the middle of the "green inferno" and point a camera at them.

Just last year they found a group of some 80 indians who no one knew were alive and well before. Their tribe and culture was well-known, but they had fleed 50 years earlier outraged because of the white invasion. So it's hard to classify that one. Uncontacted? Not quite. Disappeared? Technically, yes.
Reading reports today, you are no doubt right.

[Badger]

I have no doubt about there being uncontacted peoples in the Amazon, the back of the bar the Fool frequents, various pacific islands, indonesia, borneo.

I was merely thinking that if something unusual, large, and noisy was buzzing my village, I may be doing something other than shooting noiseless arrows ineffectually in its general direction.

I'd probably be preparing to defend my village, or sacrifice something, or show supplication, or scare it away with noise, or running away from it, or hiding.

Also, maybe the photo's and video was selected to perpetuate some sort of stereotype or to act as a shorthand for "here be wild people".

Upon checking the pics at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24895872 I don't think this is staged. They look pretty upset and bemused to me.

Oh, and those look like some honkin bows with good range. Long, thick limbs like English longbows, which were capable of shots of several hundred yards.

[learner]

All looks good to me, apart from the bows. Never noticed a brazilian native using such long bows before,doesnt make sense for jungle hunters. Usualy, small bow - long arrow. Besides the one in the bottom right looks like dave from my archery club.

[EssenceOfMagic]

I saw the video footage of this on the news yesterday as well. I don't think it's staged. But yeah, just confusion with the terminology.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Adding nothing Jerome!Actually in a rare moment, Jerome does have a point. You get lost or you lose things. 'Lost tribe' is a movie term, not an anthropological term and I think the plots were mostly about going back to some place that had previously been found like Shangri-La or the Center of the Earth.

A group of people not previously discovered would indeed not be 'lost'. And it wouldn't matter except it is a stupid movie version of reality. I find it reflects poorly on the collective intellect of our species. ;)

[Skeptic Ginger]

As far as the photos go, the photographers were specifically looking for people in unexplored areas of the jungle.

Survival International (http://www.survival-international.org/)The photos were taken during several flights over one of the remotest parts of the Amazon rainforest in Brazil’s Acre state.

‘We did the overflight to show their houses, to show they are there, to show they exist,’ said uncontacted tribes expert José Carlos dos Reis Meirelles Júnior. Meirelles works for FUNAI, the Brazilian government’s Indian affairs department. ‘This is very important because there are some who doubt their existence.’

Meirelles says that the group’s numbers are increasing. But other uncontacted groups in the region, whose homes have been photographed from the air, are in severe danger from illegal logging in Peru. Logging is driving uncontacted tribes over the border and could lead to conflict with the estimated five hundred uncontacted Indians already living on the Brazilian side.

French company in legal battle over uncontacted tribes; 29 May 2008 (http://www.survival-international.org/news/3342)

Uncontacted Tribes video (http://www.survival-international.org/campaigns/uncontactedtribes)

This is fascinating. I had no idea there were so many uncontacted people still in these remote locations. I see no reason to think this was staged. From a link from the Wiki link I found this related Reuter's article, Jan 07:

Brazil sees traces of more isolated Amazon tribes (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN17285256)...A study by Funai, the government's National Indian Foundation, and seen by Reuters estimates that around 67 Indian groups live in complete isolation, up from previous estimates of around 40.

"With the rate of destruction in the Amazon, it is amazing there are any isolated people left at all," said Fiona Watson, campaigns coordinator with Survival International, an advocacy group for tribal peoples.

Funai reviewed old and new discoveries of footprints, abandoned huts, and other signs of human life in the thicket of the world's largest rain forest.

"There are still vast unexplored areas and new indications of (Indian groups)," Marcelo dos Santos, head of Funai's department of isolated Indians, told Reuters.

Brazil is likely to have the largest number of uncontacted tribes in the world, Watson said....

...Anthropologists say most of the uncontacted Indians are likely to know of white men or even have had accidental meetings with them but choose to remain hidden.

After a policy that sought to actively integrate Indians into Brazilian mainstream culture during the military dictatorship of 1964-85, the government adopted a policy of avoiding contact with isolated Indians unless they are in extreme danger....

...Some isolated groups live in large Indian reserves that are at least occasionally protected by federal police. Others obtain little aid to face encroaching wildcat miners and loggers.

This week the federal police and the environmental protection agency Ibama will forcefully remove hundreds of illegal settlers that invaded the Uru Eu Wau Wau indigenous territory in Rondonia, where uncontacted groups live.

"If we don't expel the invaders now, those Indians won't survive," said Rogerio Vargas Motta, an environmentalist.

When Motta photographed one of the groups by air nearly two years ago, "an elderly woman shot arrows at the helicopter 200 metres (656 ft) high."

[Big Les]

In that case - cool! Ethical problems abound of course - should they be left alone entirely? Non-intrusively contacted? Shipped a crate of xbox 360s?

[Beerina]

By this stage any group that that doesn't tend to be rather hostile to outside people and things is likely to have been firmly contacted.

Assuming it's true and not just a put-on for profit by the tribe and a couple of "discoverers", I would be highly surprised they hadn't seen "flying" things go overhead for years now, though probably none at low level. Whether they figured out it's other humans or some kind of beast/god/dragon thingie, who knows.

I wonder if there are truly any such tribes anymore. There are probably no truly undiscovered islands anymore, thanks to high-resolution satellite photos of the entire surface of the Earth + running it through a computer to look for pixels that ain't blue.

So, too, with huts in the rainforest, if someone wanted to spend a few minutes at a computer.

[The Mad Hatter]

How exactly do people estimate how many uncontacted tribes there are?

[Gravy]

Actually in a rare moment, Jerome does have a point. You get lost or you lose things. 'Lost tribe' is a movie term, not an anthropological term and I think the plots were mostly about going back to some place that had previously been found like Shangri-La or the Center of the Earth.

A group of people not previously discovered would indeed not be 'lost'. And it wouldn't matter except it is a stupid movie version of reality. I find it reflects poorly on the collective intellect of our species. ;)Reminds me of a Doonesbury cartoon from the '70's, about the "secret" U.S. bombing of Cambodia. A peasant and his wife are looking at the reader. He says, "They weren't a secret. I said, 'Look, Martha, here come the bombs.'" She says, "That's right, he did."

[Gravy]

How exactly do people estimate how many uncontacted tribes there are?Mainly by reports from "contacted" tribes, as mentioned above, I suppose. Luciana's post lists other ways.

[Skeptic Ginger]

How exactly do people estimate how many uncontacted tribes there are?
There are at least a couple of ways. You can look at the population density of the areas where other cultures have contacted indigenous peoples and compare it to the areas likely to have similar populations but which no contact has been made. You can take satellite images and use them to pinpoint areas of human disturbed vegetation. They did that over Central America and identified sites of ruins that had yet to be discovered.

[Correa Neto]

Luciana's post pretty much nails it down.

Disclaimer:
I will not say I KNOW Amazonia: I think the best one can say is that he/she knows parts of it and/or has some experience on it. I do know small parts of it and have some experience on it.

This put, let me add some context and speculations. I think chances are the "tribe" would be better described as "not officially contacted". Those people probably had previous past contacts with other tribes and even with people like those we call "garimpeiros"- illegal (or barely legal, at best) gold/diamond prospectors. Too bad for them if they ever got in touch with this type of people, I would add. Its also possible that the "new tribe" has some sort of contact (trade, fights, etc.) with other people (other tribes, prospectors, fishermen, etc.); the government (and/or the journalists), however, is not aware of this.

Now, tropical rainforest tribes are nomadic to semi-nomadic. They settle at a site, cut the woods, start planting manioc and hunting. When natural resources become sparce or a stronger group of people arrives, its time for them to lift camp and settle somewhere else. Another reason to consider that chances are some contact has already been made. They were not always there, hiding at some unreachable Lost World...

As for the folks from the tribe never seeing an aircraft (fixed or rotary wings), sorry, I don't buy that. Several small planes cross the skies over the rain forest carrying people of all sorts, both civillian and millitary, both legal and illegal. About U$2500.00 will be enough for anyone to rent a small two-engine plane for a 4 hours ride. For good of for bad, they probably know that aircraft are not gods or mystical beasts and what's inside them.

[jberryhill]

They don't want to be contacted.

A good way to check is whether they let their forwarding order expire at the post office.

[Sefarst]

In that case - cool! Ethical problems abound of course - should they be left alone entirely? Non-intrusively contacted? Shipped a crate of xbox 360s?
I agree. More interestingly, do we have a moral obligation to make them aware of modern medicine? I suppose we can't know for sure, but I can't imagine how many of them die of easily treatable infections and diseases.

[jberryhill]

...or how many infections would result from contact...

[Big Les]

Well, big surprise. They were known about nearly 100 years ago, and the photographer went out looking for them:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/21/amazon