Ghost Hunters Evidence It's got to be real

[tiger]

Or so they would have you believe so is there anyway of believing that this is a apparition. Well to the shock of all I believe there is a way of seeing this could be a apparition! It's not what you think I haven't turned stupid and started believing in ghosts. I'm thinking this wouldn't be hard to make look like a ghost with a simple piece of see thru cloth and the person wearing it showing just enough that gives it that see thru quality.

Watch and see waht you think!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UnU7FkD-w

[Lensman]

It could also be CGI.

[tiger]

It could also be CGI.


Never heard the term with the exception of a computer interfacing program.

[rsaavedra]

Computer Generated Images / Imaging.

I think the video is terrible. And there's hardly anything caught on it. Nothing clearly identifiable, only this abstract sort of transparency moving briefly in one part of the scene. That can be easily done with software. But how about artifacts? Where they using analog or digital equipment? For some reason, the image seemed to me at some point the shadow of something projected on the glass door in the background, and everything else with the "see-through" effect can be video compression artifacts. Why such a low resolution? Was this a webcam? And black and white? (Is it infrared?)

I think that video is a waste of time, also dedicating more time to the guys speaking than to the actual video caught. And the zooming is really inadequate, not showing for long enough or repeatedly enough the actual area of interest.

[tiger]

Computer Generated Images / Imaging.

Alright I do now understand what you all are saying, but why won't you believe:D, just joking! It is video but to me it appears very probable that someone could be wearing it or holding it someway. The computer generated part could be the case but why wouldn't you have it step out all the way??? The darker background is highly convienent to say the least!

[deep]

That's certainly an interesting video, but they really need to collect more evidence. It looks to me like a curtain, or something similar, blowing in the wind.

Now that they've captured this initial video, it's time to pull out the ultra high-res cameras with night vision (if necessary), and then try to record this happening again. Either that, or put cameras in every room for close-ups of whatever is (partially) obstructing the light.

Bottom line: grainy videos from afar aren't enough to rewrite all of the science textbooks.

[tiger]

That's certainly an interesting video, but they really need to collect more evidence. It looks to me like a curtain, or something similar, blowing in the wind.

Now that they've captured this initial video, it's time to pull out the ultra high-res cameras with night vision (if necessary), and then try to record this happening again. Either that, or put cameras in every room for close-ups of whatever is (partially) obstructing the light.

Bottom line: grainy videos from afar aren't enough to rewrite all of the science textbooks.

Amen!

[mayday]

Tiger, I think you are a very young person still trying to figure things out, but you should expand your horizons a little.

[tiger]

Tiger, I think you are a very young person still trying to figure things out, but you should expand your horizons a little.

Once again you still don't have a clue!

[JFrankA]

I've never watched the show, but I think they claim that they are trying to disprove the hauntings.

However, it doesn't look like that to me on the commercials. Even this clip. It was more like "look - something vague - that prove something!" It looks like to me that they are trying to prove that ghosts exists. Otherwise, they'd run up to the "thing moving" and get a closer look. And doesn't cameras have zooms??????

Also, would someone please explain to me the connection between an EFM meter and ghosts? How the hell are ghosts magnetic? What? Do they have their own gravity field as well?????? Are they hold powerful compasses so they find their way back to the "netherworld"????? Did Casper attract metal???? How the hell does death cause a change in electro-magnetic fields? Does giving birth do the same thing?????

Sorry, I just never got the connection between ghosts and electro-magnetic fields...

[deep]

However, it doesn't look like that to me on the commercials. Even this clip. It was more like "look - something vague - that prove something!" It looks like to me that they are trying to prove that ghosts exists. Otherwise, they'd run up to the "thing moving" and get a closer look. And doesn't cameras have zooms??????


I believe it's widely accepted that approaching or zooming in on the disturbance will "scare the ghosts away". :)

[JFrankA]

I believe it's widely accepted that approaching or zooming in on the disturbance will "scare the ghosts away". :)

OOooooooh!!!!! Is that because using the zoom interferes with their electro-magnetic field??









:D

[mayday]

Alright I do now understand what you all are saying, but why won't you believe:D, just joking! It is video but to me it appears very probable that someone could be wearing it or holding it someway. The computer generated part could be the case but why wouldn't you have it step out all the way??? The darker background is highly convienent to say the least!

I think you really want to believe but you don't want to be laughed at, so when you find something that is impressive to you it is posted on here and you gauge your reactions to others' so you don't feel embarrassed.

Tiger, you have to stand up for what you believe in, like I do.

These people don't have all the answers, not even close. I know what has happened in my life and that it isn't a "camera strap" or "overlapping radio noise" or some other such write off.

[gelatin]

well, no, it most likely is some "write off". Just one that seems to be inconceivable to you.

[creativecritter41]

The show is a docudrama. Period. I watched the first season and was almost fooled into believing they were actually trying to debunk things. What a joke that turned out to be.

As far as I can tell these days, the people in the show have turned into drama queens in order to drum up some kind of excitement for gullible die hard fans. Just have a look at Jason Hawes's myspace. Total whiner and thinks he is the shiznits. :rolleyes:

On the scifi board they created a skeptics corner because they didn't appreciate some people debunking far better than dumb and dumber. This is an interesting thread.

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2291401

There was plenty more evidence a couple years ago, but TAPS and Scifi are trying pretty hard to keep it under wraps..

It is a shame that so many people can't see the deceit right in front of their faces. :boggled:

[mayday]

The show is a docudrama. Period. I watched the first season and was almost fooled into believing they were actually trying to debunk things. What a joke that turned out to be.

As far as I can tell these days, the people in the show have turned into drama queens in order to drum up some kind of excitement for gullible die hard fans. Just have a look at Jason Hawes's myspace. Total whiner and thinks he is the shiznits. :rolleyes:

On the scifi board they created a skeptics corner because they didn't appreciate some people debunking far better than dumb and dumber. This is an interesting thread.

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2291401

There was plenty more evidence a couple years ago, but TAPS and Scifi are trying pretty hard to keep it under wraps..

It is a shame that so many people can't see the deceit right in front of their faces. :boggled:

I'm not talking about those phony tv shows, I'm talking about the real deal.

[creativecritter41]

I'm not talking about those phony tv shows, I'm talking about the real deal.

I was speaking to tiger in reference to his video. I didn't even read past the first post so, sorry if I have no idea what you are talking about. As to the real deal, I, myself, have seen some weird stuff, but can I say that it was paranormal..? No.

It's weird how the supernatural has taken a serious hold on more people than ever. I was interested in it when it wasn't cool and was not a topic one talked about. I think there are a lot... A LOT, of people out there who are fooling themselves into thinking something supernatural is happening to them.. (demons attacking them, ghosts visiting them..etc) When in fact, they just need to use some common sense, instead of the dramatics.

I suppose it's more exciting to think that some ghost is haunting them.. and not to mention the attention one receives when they spread their stories of encounters.

[Skeptic Guy]

I'm not talking about those phony tv shows, I'm talking about the real deal.

The real deal? What exactly would that be?

[Miss Whiplash]

I'm not talking about those phony tv shows, I'm talking about the real deal.

I think you should use more dry lube.

[Bikewer]

I have never even watched the show, it just seems.....Silly. Why do the "ghosts" only appear at night?
Just so the lads are confined to grainy, dramatic-looking night-vision video equipment? Just so it's really easy to add artifacts?

[Ixion]

These people don't have all the answers, not even close. I know what has happened in my life and that it isn't a "camera strap" or "overlapping radio noise" or some other such write off.


Must....not.....feed....the....troll....

[tiger]

I think you really want to believe but you don't want to be laughed at, so when you find something that is impressive to you it is posted on here and you gauge your reactions to others' so you don't feel embarrassed.

Tiger, you have to stand up for what you believe in, like I do.

These people don't have all the answers, not even close. I know what has happened in my life and that it isn't a "camera strap" or "overlapping radio noise" or some other such write off.

Oh wow I cannot believe it your actually right! I just saw the light and and now I can see dead people and their talking to me...What was that again...Throw the pendulium down the hill vigorously till you hear a clank!

[tiger]

Must....not.....feed....the....troll....


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[MarkRandall]

I'm so disappointed in these links to videos. I get my hopes all up based on the description that I'm gonna see something, well, "ghostly" or at the least mysterious. However, invariably the videos themselves tilt in one of two directions: something incredibly lame (like the obvious reflection of a bug on a lens) or something that doesn't even quite qualify as a "thing". This case is the latter.

Since someone brought up the possibility of CGI, I'll weigh in here. I'm certainly no expert on "ghost hunting" (just as I have no expertise in successful fairy catching or Santa trapping). But one thing I am an expert in is video, visual effects and computer graphics having worked in the field for twenty years and co-founding the company that developed software that rendered visual effects for Star Trek, Babylon 5, Titanic, Men in Black, Jurassic Park and Star Wars: The Phantom Menace (although not, I'm proud to say, Jar-Jar).

Though this video is really terrible quality, I can see enough to venture a guess that what this is not CGI. That leaves two other likely suspects: lens reflections or a practical effect. The image does not appear to be infrared, rather it looks like a low-light imaging system. These systems typically combine a very wide lens (to gather more light) and a CCD or CMOS imager tuned for increased sensitivity. When you push an imager to get more gain, you invariably get a lot more noise along with poor contrast and dynamic range. Sometimes that leads to visual artifacts that viewers misinterpret as mysterious. The other type of common camera-based artifact is from that extra wide lens. These really wide, fast lenses are subject to picking up off-axis reflections and bouncing them around between internal glass elements which scrambles the image even further.

However, in this case I don't think it looks like an inter-lens reflection. Those come from external sources and typically those sources have fairly consistent motion sources, such as car tail lights reflecting in the distance. Nope, I think it looks exactly like a "practical effect". This is the term that effects people use to describe actual things happening in front of the lens to achieve an effect. Examples would be forced perspective shots, depth of field effects, a broom floating by on a thin string or a guy running around in a monkey suit. Effects people love practical effects because they are far cheaper than digital effects and are relatively easy to do. For example, the show Sabrina the Teenage Witch was a heavy user of practical effects. My friend Joel created most of them (ie the broom floating mysteriously by on a string or smoke coming out of someone's finger). Fun stuff...

In this case I think we're seeing a person manipulating a sheet of semi-transparent material through the dark door way (and using the same sheet to obscure themselves). This kind of semi-transparent material is just the sort of stuff you find on any well equipped grip truck on a video shoot (the grip or gaffer is the guy that rigs the lighting and pretty much anything else that needs rigging on a set). The thing is called a scrim and it's placed in front of a light to partially or fully mask off its beam. Can I prove that what we're seeing is scrim material? No, the video's too crappy, but it sure looks like it to me and to my mind that explanation seems a lot more likely than inter-dimensional ectoplasm.

[tiger]

I'm so disappointed in these links to videos. I get my hopes all up based on the description that I'm gonna see something, well, "ghostly" or at the least mysterious. However, invariably the videos themselves tilt in one of two directions: something incredibly lame (like the obvious reflection of a bug on a lens) or something that doesn't even quite qualify as a "thing". This case is the latter.

Since someone brought up the possibility of CGI, I'll weigh in here. I'm certainly no expert on "ghost hunting" (just as I have no expertise in successful fairy catching or Santa trapping). But one thing I am an expert in is video, visual effects and computer graphics having worked in the field for twenty years and co-founding the company that developed software that rendered visual effects for Star Trek, Babylon 5, Titanic, Men in Black, Jurassic Park and Star Wars: The Phantom Menace (although not, I'm proud to say, Jar-Jar).

Though this video is really terrible quality, I can see enough to venture a guess that what this is not CGI. That leaves two other likely suspects: lens reflections or a practical effect. The image does not appear to be infrared, rather it looks like a low-light imaging system. These systems typically combine a very wide lens (to gather more light) and a CCD or CMOS imager tuned for increased sensitivity. When you push an imager to get more gain, you invariably get a lot more noise along with poor contrast and dynamic range. Sometimes that leads to visual artifacts that viewers misinterpret as mysterious. The other type of common camera-based artifact is from that extra wide lens. These really wide, fast lenses are subject to picking up off-axis reflections and bouncing them around between internal glass elements which scrambles the image even further.

However, in this case I don't think it looks like an inter-lens reflection. Those come from external sources and typically those sources have fairly consistent motion sources, such as car tail lights reflecting in the distance. Nope, I think it looks exactly like a "practical effect". This is the term that effects people use to describe actual things happening in front of the lens to achieve an effect. Examples would be forced perspective shots, depth of field effects, a broom floating by on a thin string or a guy running around in a monkey suit. Effects people love practical effects because they are far cheaper than digital effects and are relatively easy to do. For example, the show Sabrina the Teenage Witch was a heavy user of practical effects. My friend Joel created most of them (ie the broom floating mysteriously by on a string or smoke coming out of someone's finger). Fun stuff...

In this case I think we're seeing a person manipulating a sheet of semi-transparent material through the dark door way (and using the same sheet to obscure themselves). This kind of semi-transparent material is just the sort of stuff you find on any well equipped grip truck on a video shoot (the grip or gaffer is the guy that rigs the lighting and pretty much anything else that needs rigging on a set). The thing is called a scrim and it's placed in front of a light to partially or fully mask off its beam. Can I prove that what we're seeing is scrim material? No, the video's too crappy, but it sure looks like it to me and to my mind that explanation seems a lot more likely than inter-dimensional ectoplasm.


Hi and thank you for your evaluation very informitive! Hey can you by chance look at the ghost hunters alleged evidence from eastern state pen with the alleged apparition and tell me if that video was sped up to give the appearance of faster movement. Please please!

here's a link and thank you ahead of time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9L7QLzNLa4

[mayday]

I'm so disappointed in these links to videos. I get my hopes all up based on the description that I'm gonna see something, well, "ghostly" or at the least mysterious. However, invariably the videos themselves tilt in one of two directions: something incredibly lame (like the obvious reflection of a bug on a lens) or something that doesn't even quite qualify as a "thing". This case is the latter.

Since someone brought up the possibility of CGI, I'll weigh in here. I'm certainly no expert on "ghost hunting" (just as I have no expertise in successful fairy catching or Santa trapping). But one thing I am an expert in is video, visual effects and computer graphics having worked in the field for twenty years and co-founding the company that developed software that rendered visual effects for Star Trek, Babylon 5, Titanic, Men in Black, Jurassic Park and Star Wars: The Phantom Menace (although not, I'm proud to say, Jar-Jar).

Though this video is really terrible quality, I can see enough to venture a guess that what this is not CGI. That leaves two other likely suspects: lens reflections or a practical effect. The image does not appear to be infrared, rather it looks like a low-light imaging system. These systems typically combine a very wide lens (to gather more light) and a CCD or CMOS imager tuned for increased sensitivity. When you push an imager to get more gain, you invariably get a lot more noise along with poor contrast and dynamic range. Sometimes that leads to visual artifacts that viewers misinterpret as mysterious. The other type of common camera-based artifact is from that extra wide lens. These really wide, fast lenses are subject to picking up off-axis reflections and bouncing them around between internal glass elements which scrambles the image even further.

However, in this case I don't think it looks like an inter-lens reflection. Those come from external sources and typically those sources have fairly consistent motion sources, such as car tail lights reflecting in the distance. Nope, I think it looks exactly like a "practical effect". This is the term that effects people use to describe actual things happening in front of the lens to achieve an effect. Examples would be forced perspective shots, depth of field effects, a broom floating by on a thin string or a guy running around in a monkey suit. Effects people love practical effects because they are far cheaper than digital effects and are relatively easy to do. For example, the show Sabrina the Teenage Witch was a heavy user of practical effects. My friend Joel created most of them (ie the broom floating mysteriously by on a string or smoke coming out of someone's finger). Fun stuff...

In this case I think we're seeing a person manipulating a sheet of semi-transparent material through the dark door way (and using the same sheet to obscure themselves). This kind of semi-transparent material is just the sort of stuff you find on any well equipped grip truck on a video shoot (the grip or gaffer is the guy that rigs the lighting and pretty much anything else that needs rigging on a set). The thing is called a scrim and it's placed in front of a light to partially or fully mask off its beam. Can I prove that what we're seeing is scrim material? No, the video's too crappy, but it sure looks like it to me and to my mind that explanation seems a lot more likely than inter-dimensional ectoplasm.


I don't know why they give the skeptics the WORST examples to evaluate.

BTW, I love Drew Carey!

[Locknar]

I don't know why they give the skeptics the WORST examples to evaluate.
I'm going to go with "because they don't have any better examples."

[KateHL]

I'm so disappointed in these links to videos. I get my hopes all up based on the description that I'm gonna see something, well, "ghostly" or at the least mysterious. However, invariably the videos themselves tilt in one of two directions: something incredibly lame (like the obvious reflection of a bug on a lens) or something that doesn't even quite qualify as a "thing". This case is the latter.

Since someone brought up the possibility of CGI, I'll weigh in here. I'm certainly no expert on "ghost hunting" (just as I have no expertise in successful fairy catching or Santa trapping). But one thing I am an expert in is video, visual effects and computer graphics having worked in the field for twenty years and co-founding the company that developed software that rendered visual effects for Star Trek, Babylon 5, Titanic, Men in Black, Jurassic Park and Star Wars: The Phantom Menace (although not, I'm proud to say, Jar-Jar).

Though this video is really terrible quality, I can see enough to venture a guess that what this is not CGI. That leaves two other likely suspects: lens reflections or a practical effect. The image does not appear to be infrared, rather it looks like a low-light imaging system. These systems typically combine a very wide lens (to gather more light) and a CCD or CMOS imager tuned for increased sensitivity. When you push an imager to get more gain, you invariably get a lot more noise along with poor contrast and dynamic range. Sometimes that leads to visual artifacts that viewers misinterpret as mysterious. The other type of common camera-based artifact is from that extra wide lens. These really wide, fast lenses are subject to picking up off-axis reflections and bouncing them around between internal glass elements which scrambles the image even further.

However, in this case I don't think it looks like an inter-lens reflection. Those come from external sources and typically those sources have fairly consistent motion sources, such as car tail lights reflecting in the distance. Nope, I think it looks exactly like a "practical effect". This is the term that effects people use to describe actual things happening in front of the lens to achieve an effect. Examples would be forced perspective shots, depth of field effects, a broom floating by on a thin string or a guy running around in a monkey suit. Effects people love practical effects because they are far cheaper than digital effects and are relatively easy to do. For example, the show Sabrina the Teenage Witch was a heavy user of practical effects. My friend Joel created most of them (ie the broom floating mysteriously by on a string or smoke coming out of someone's finger). Fun stuff...

In this case I think we're seeing a person manipulating a sheet of semi-transparent material through the dark door way (and using the same sheet to obscure themselves). This kind of semi-transparent material is just the sort of stuff you find on any well equipped grip truck on a video shoot (the grip or gaffer is the guy that rigs the lighting and pretty much anything else that needs rigging on a set). The thing is called a scrim and it's placed in front of a light to partially or fully mask off its beam. Can I prove that what we're seeing is scrim material? No, the video's too crappy, but it sure looks like it to me and to my mind that explanation seems a lot more likely than inter-dimensional ectoplasm.Amazing analysis! The best I could come up with is 'this looks stupid.'

I was at a friend's house the other night and she warned me, "We'll be watching Ghost Hunters so I hope you don't scare easily." I replied, "Well, not by that, no." Then I explained that they've been busted faking apparitions before and she looked at me with a marked degree of incredulity. A for-entertainment-only television show implementing effects to draw in ratings? NEVER!

[Tsukasa Buddha]

LOL, ghosts are sheets?

Ghost Hunters was so lame. They claimed to be skeptical but when anything happens they go "ZOMG wut waz tat?!" Except when they needed to do some token "debunking".

And Jesus was there pointless drama.

[Ron_Tomkins]

These people don't have all the answers, not even close.

Hey, I'm the one who calls the forum people "you people" in here.

[MarkRandall]

Hi and thank you for your evaluation very informitive! Hey can you by chance look at the ghost hunters alleged evidence from eastern state pen with the alleged apparition and tell me if that video was sped up to give the appearance of faster movement. Please please!



Yes, the video was sped up. The first clue is the motion of the bugs swarming the light near the camera. However, the speed-up may not have been done intentionally. Some security camera systems have modes that skip frames in order to preserve storage space (either on tape or, in newer systems, on disk). Typical skips would include every third frame, yielding 20fps or every second frame, yielding 15fps. I downloaded this video from YouTube so I could examine it in greater detail. The primary advantage to doing this isn't to zoom in (because it just gets fuzzy, unlike every spy movie shows) but rather to be able to step through the frames with greater precision.

YouTube's video playback controls can leave a lot to be desired. It is difficult to seek individual frames in the file sequentially. The result is that when you grab the shuttle knob the video jumps around in time pretty wildly. The other issue is that YouTube re-encodes every video uploaded, whether it needs re-encoding or not (encoding means compression). This introduces double the compression artifacts which further muddles the signal.

My best estimate is that the source video was recorded at 15 frames per second yet played back at 30 frames per second. The object in the video looks like a person in a cowl or robe walking toward the camera and then away from the camera just at the edge of the light's falloff. To me the giveaway is the left-right swaying motion of the upper torso, which exactly matches a human walk cycle. Also, there is kick out of the leg below the knee on the screen left part of the body. This motion matches the walk cycle. When played back at half speed the side to side motion of the torso and the velocity of the stop/retreat motion look entirely human.

I just wish, if they are going to fake these shots, that they would respect the viewers and themselves by putting a little more effort into it. The technology available today for desktop manipulation of digital video is truly breathtaking in scope and quality. Even on very low budgets, effects worthy of a Hollywood feature film are not only possible but common.

It's the same problem I have with Uri Geller (one of many). If you're going to do simple magic tricks to "prove" your psychic abilities, please don't completely suck at them.

[mayday]

The white tennis shoes kind of gives it away.

[creativecritter41]

Thanks for that Mark! Oh, how I wish I wasn't banned from a few boards to let others see your comments!

Tiger, spread the word. :D

[MarkRandall]

Amazing analysis! The best I could come up with is 'this looks stupid.'

I was at a friend's house the other night and she warned me, "We'll be watching Ghost Hunters so I hope you don't scare easily." I replied, "Well, not by that, no." Then I explained that they've been busted faking apparitions before and she looked at me with a marked degree of incredulity. A for-entertainment-only television show implementing effects to draw in ratings? NEVER!
Thanks Kate! However, your analysis is enviably more concise (yet equally as accurate) as mine. :)

[chillzero]

If I ever did come up with anything close to evidence of anything paranormal, I think I would be careful not to disclose it on a channel called 'Science Fiction' ... just for the sake of ... ya know ... credibility.

[Tricky]

Tiger, you have to stand up for what you believe in, like I do.
Better yet, Tiger should be discriminating and employ critical thinking about what he believes in, like you don't.

[Alice Shortcake]

Yes, the video was sped up. The first clue is the motion of the bugs swarming the light near the camera.

"Bugs"? My dear sir, those are ORBS! :)

[tiger]

Better yet, Tiger should be discriminating and employ critical thinking about what he believes in, like you don't.


Alright I tried to stay away because I thought people on here thought I was a troll for some reason. Well I am not! Mayday once and for all the people that you are arguing with maybe more receptive to your way of thinking than I will be. Thats not to say they are going to be but I am a hardcore skeptic it's just that plain and that simple I do not believe in ghosts and it's going to take a hell of alot to convince they exist. And that proof is going to have to come from science not some ghost chasers dellussional mind. Has for meduims and psychics give me a break these people have been failing from the first time they made a prediction or done a reading.

You run a million dollars by their nose and you get their attention add some conditions and they run and hide, quivering in the corner,not wanting to come out and play. I have watched alot psychics and meduims and they are ALL FULL OF **** and there not going to get any better at
it!I wrote a thread on here that sums up the paranormal pretty well and it's about getting the lights off, because thats where the paranormal people like to stay in the dark.

Sorry but I felt the need to make my position clear!
Mark hey thanks alot for evaluating that Eastern Pen State video I was pretty sure that was the case but thank you sincerely for validating that it was speeded up to make the person appear to be moving faster than possible. It's sure is nice to have you on here and definatly looking forward to working with you again.

[tiger]

Thanks for that Mark! Oh, how I wish I wasn't banned from a few boards to let others see your comments!

Tiger, spread the word. :D

I will be thanks for the support, much appreciated!

[Senex]

If you are a skeptic and want to post here you have to pick and choose where you can post. I am choosing to post here. Every non-foolish person knows there are no ghosts. If there were ghosts it wouldn't take people who misuse temperature recording instruments to find them.

These idiots find spooks every week wherever they go. I'm certain there are websites that expose them. I could post them if motivated.

Let's just accept Ghost Hunters are in for the money -- not the evidence.

[tiger]

If you are a skeptic and want to post here you have to pick and choose where you can post. I am choosing to post here. Every non-foolish person knows there are no ghosts. If there were ghosts it wouldn't take people who misuse temperature recording instruments to find them.

These idiots find spooks every week wherever they go. I'm certain there are websites that expose them. I could post them if motivated.

Let's just accept Ghost Hunters are in for the money -- not the evidence.

Open to suggestions anyone has! Where do you think would be good places. I am still able to get on the scifi ghost hunter forum even though they hate me for it!

[mayday]

If you are a skeptic and want to post here you have to pick and choose where you can post. I am choosing to post here. Every non-foolish person knows there are no ghosts. If there were ghosts it wouldn't take people who misuse temperature recording instruments to find them.

These idiots find spooks every week wherever they go. I'm certain there are websites that expose them. I could post them if motivated.

Let's just accept Ghost Hunters are in for the money -- not the evidence.

Yea, they're raking in the big bucks. :rolleyes:

I know what keeps me interested. Photos I've taken that have full apparitions in them, orbs that are more than dust, the husband recently took a picture of some that were not clear or white, but pink (and he says he sees a smiley face in that one but I don't). Noises and smells that shouldn't be where they are. A bad tooth only aggravated by sitting on the deceased person's bed. Chairs whizzing across the room from a stopped position. These are occurrences I've witnessed firsthand. I know they are not tv interference/dust/smoke/fog, etc. or some other such nonsense, these are things that defy what we can currently explain.

Does that mean I believe in ghosts? No, it does not. I don't believe in ghosts. I believe that when you are gone, you're gone. I believe that when you die you cease to exist, just like the Bible says.

I also know that not everything fits in a perfect little box and being observant I know that the things I have experienced must be otherwordly...at least until we can explain why they have happened.

[Gate2501]

Yea, they're raking in the big bucks. :rolleyes:

I know what keeps me interested. Photos I've taken that have full apparitions in them, orbs that are more than dust, the husband recently took a picture of some that were not clear or white, but pink (and he says he sees a smiley face in that one but I don't). Noises and smells that shouldn't be where they are. A bad tooth only aggravated by sitting on the deceased person's bed. Chairs whizzing across the room from a stopped position. These are occurrences I've witnessed firsthand. I know they are not tv interference/dust/smoke/fog, etc. or some other such nonsense, these are things that defy what we can currently explain.

Does that mean I believe in ghosts? No, it does not. I don't believe in ghosts. I believe that when you are gone, you're gone. I believe that when you die you cease to exist, just like the Bible says.

I also know that not everything fits in a perfect little box and being observant I know that the things I have experienced must be otherwordly...at least until we can explain why they have happened.

I found this post to be completely strange and confounding.

You have pictures of apparitions, but ghosts are hogwash? What do you think that you have pictures of? Then you inject the bible? I'm lost.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Locknar]

I know what keeps me interested. Photos I've taken that have full apparitions in them, orbs that are more than dust, the husband recently took a picture of some that were not clear or white, but pink (and he says he sees a smiley face in that one but I don't). Noises and smells that shouldn't be where they are. A bad tooth only aggravated by sitting on the deceased person's bed. Chairs whizzing across the room from a stopped position. These are occurrences I've witnessed firsthand. I know they are not tv interference/dust/smoke/fog, etc. or some other such nonsense, these are things that defy what we can currently explain.

BOLD added by Locknar
Everything you claim as experiences can be rationally (and easily) explained...you simply choose to believe in "woo woo".

Specific to your claimed experiences...I speculate you make up, or otherwise imagine, the bulk of them. This would account for your unwillingness to provide specifics...as well as when you do only to contradict yourself.

[Senex]

Open to suggestions anyone has! Where do you think would be good places. I am still able to get on the scifi ghost hunter forum even though they hate me for it!

I'll take a pass on this until you make sense.

mayday
Yea, they're raking in the big bucks.

The amount of money they are exploiting is not important to this conversation.

I know what keeps me interested. Photos I've taken that have full apparitions in them, orbs that are more than dust, the husband recently took a picture of some that were not clear or white, but pink (and he says he sees a smiley face in that one but I don't). Noises and smells that shouldn't be where they are. A bad tooth only aggravated by sitting on the deceased person's bed. Chairs whizzing across the room from a stopped position. These are occurrences I've witnessed firsthand. I know they are not tv interference/dust/smoke/fog, etc. or some other such nonsense, these are things that defy what we can currently explain.
Ummm, many people would disagree with your claims. If I saw a chair whizzing acros the room in person I would believe, but not if i saw it on TV.

Does that mean I believe in ghosts? No, it does not. I don't believe in ghosts. I believe that when you are gone, you're gone. I believe that when you die you cease to exist, just like the Bible says.

I also know that not everything fits in a perfect little box and being observant I know that the things I have experienced must be otherwordly...at least until we can explain why they have happened.

Well, you have contradictory beliefs; my beliefs aren't contradictory. I don't believe in ghost like behavior .

I don't believe any otherwordly behavior ever happened -- even once.

I'm not mocking you, I'm just telling you what is the most likely explanation.

[mayday]

Everything you claim as experiences can be rationally (and easily) explained...you simply choose to believe in "woo woo".

Specific to your claimed experiences...I speculate you make up, or otherwise imagine, the bulk of them. This would account for your unwillingness to provide specifics...as well as when you do only to contradict yourself.

Give me some examples of how I have contradicted myself, please.

[Gate2501]

Give me some examples of how I have contradicted myself, please.

Well, you said you had photos of apparitions, and that your tooth hurt when you sat on a dead persons bed...

Then you said you don't believe in ghosts.

So you believe in some supernatural phenomena that involves dead people and apparitions, but not ghosts???

[mayday]

I'll take a pass on this until you make sense.


The amount of money they are exploiting is not important to this conversation.

Ummm, many people would disagree with your claims. If I saw a chair whizzing acros the room in person I would believe, but not if i saw it on TV.


Well, you have contradictory beliefs; my beliefs aren't contradictory. I don't believe in ghost like behavior .

I don't believe any otherwordly behavior ever happened -- even once.

I'm not mocking you, I'm just telling you what is the most likely explanation.

I saw the chair whizzing across the room personally, not on tv.

My beliefs are not contradictory, either. They make perfect sense. What are you finding contradictory?

[mayday]

Well, you said you had photos of apparitions, and that your tooth hurt when you sat on a dead persons bed...

Then you said you don't believe in ghosts.

So you believe in some supernatural phenomena that involves dead people and apparitions, but not ghosts???


Not at all. I think what we are experiencing are overlapping dimensions, the past can sometimes manifest itself in our world. When we see what looks like deceased people show up as apparitions it is really, say 2008 overlapping with 1965, for example. A shift in time.

I mention the Bible because so many people like to refer to it as if it were a comic book. Truth is, the Bible has a lot of wisdom and truth in it and does not say what a lot of mislead, uneducated people believe it says.

I think if some cynics would actually pay attention to what the Bible says rather than what looney people have to say they might get the picture.

Anyway, no I don't believe in ghosts.

[Miss Whiplash]

My beliefs are not contradictory, either. They make perfect sense. What are you finding contradictory?

Dry lube...

[Peter S.]

I think the transparency of the object on the video is from camera burn in. The video appears to be taken by a security camera. Since the camera has been pointing the same direction for who knows how long, the background image has been burned into the camera. When someone moves through the frame the background image remains making them look transparent.

[Gate2501]

Not at all. I think what we are experiencing are overlapping dimensions, the past can sometimes manifest itself in our world. When we see what looks like deceased people show up as apparitions it is really, say 2008 overlapping with 1965, for example. A shift in time.



How in the heck would that even work? Overlapping dimensions?

The past is *NOT* another dimension that could overlap our own. I would think that even IF the *past* could somehow manifest itself in the present, our planet and everything else would have been at radically different spatial coordinates back then, and it would manifest itself over in our past position in the milky way (given this *overlap* scenario).

Also I would like to point out that the Ghost Hunters would call this a *residual haunting*! You ghost believer you!

[Senex]

I saw the chair whizzing across the room personally, not on tv.

My beliefs are not contradictory, either. They make perfect sense. What are you finding contradictory?

You saw a chair move across a room when you knew people whose job was on the line to make something interesting happen on this ghost TV show were all around? Were you at all skeptical that people around you were out to trick you?

Have you any other experience with ghosts? Were you a ghost believer when you walked into that door?

I am, for example, a skeptic in ghosts. Why can't someone with my beliefs be a part of the ghost hunters team?

I don't belive in ghosts and believe you were tricked into believing that chair was moving across the room. You have to be darned silly to believe in ghosts.

Have a skeptic with you when you are going into the belly of woo:rolleyes:

[Locknar]

Give me some examples of how I have contradicted myself, please.The visit to "Mary"...or rather, the non-visits to "Mary" after your multiple promises. This of course ended with your "if I don't go this time I'll never return" (my paraphrase) statement. You've not visited "Mary", yet your here.

Why would you post pictures to a "ghost hunter" site, if you don't believe in ghosts?

Not to mention, you have a chair you suggested was haunted/possessed by a happy face/sad faced entity....but you don't believe in ghosts.

Dry lube...

You claim to have "amazing pictures", yet come up with every excuse you can to not post them.

You claim to be a nurse, yet I seem to recall something about vaccines; either not giving them (but reporting you had) or giving false injections with saline.

The list goes on and on....but, this is all really beside the point of your unwillingness (or inability) to provide specifics in terms of your claims. Why is that?

You want to make baseless claims, have at it...but don't expect anyone to believe them.

[tiger]

Not at all. I think what we are experiencing are overlapping dimensions, the past can sometimes manifest itself in our world. When we see what looks like deceased people show up as apparitions it is really, say 2008 overlapping with 1965, for example. A shift in time.

I mention the Bible because so many people like to refer to it as if it were a comic book. Truth is, the Bible has a lot of wisdom and truth in it and does not say what a lot of mislead, uneducated people believe it says.

I think if some cynics would actually pay attention to what the Bible says rather than what looney people have to say they might get the picture.

Anyway, no I don't believe in ghosts.

Wow! Once again the world has stopped for you can you feel it! Is there any possibility, any at all were going to actually know what the hell your talking about. You believe in ghost's now you don't believe in ghost's and again what the hell is a overlapping dimension.

[Locknar]

Not at all. I think what we are experiencing are overlapping dimensions, the past can sometimes manifest itself in our world. When we see what looks like deceased people show up as apparitions it is really, say 2008 overlapping with 1965, for example. A shift in time.

I mention the Bible because so many people like to refer to it as if it were a comic book. Truth is, the Bible has a lot of wisdom and truth in it and does not say what a lot of mislead, uneducated people believe it says.

I think if some cynics would actually pay attention to what the Bible says rather than what looney people have to say they might get the picture.

Anyway, no I don't believe in ghosts.Err....where in the Bible does it discuss "overlapping dimensions"?

<snip> I believe that when you are gone, you're gone. I believe that when you die you cease to exist, just like the Bible says.

Now, I am no Bible scholar....but I seem to recall the whole "heaven/hell" bit; that is much different then "cease to exist" as you claim.

Dare I say, this seems to be yet another condradiction....you claim to believe in the Bible, then contradict what it outlines in terms of what happens after death.

[tiger]

I'll take a pass on this until you make sense.




Sorry Senex not sure what your talking about!

[mayday]

You saw a chair move across a room when you knew people whose job was on the line to make something interesting happen on this ghost TV show were all around? Were you at all skeptical that people around you were out to trick you?

Have you any other experience with ghosts? Were you a ghost believer when you walked into that door?

I am, for example, a skeptic in ghosts. Why can't someone with my beliefs be a part of the ghost hunters team?

I don't belive in ghosts and believe you were tricked into believing that chair was moving across the room. You have to be darned silly to believe in ghosts.

Have a skeptic with you when you are going into the belly of woo:rolleyes:

Uh....WHAT????

I wasn't on any tv show, I was at work in a room with a patient. It was just me and the patient. The patient is a 95 y/o woman with dementia who is bedridden. I've wondered if maybe the floor was uneven and that is why the chair rolled, but it wouldn't roll that quickly from a stopped position.

[mayday]

Dry lube...

Dry lube DOES exist.

[mayday]

Err....where in the Bible does it discuss "overlapping dimensions"?



Now, I am no Bible scholar....but I seem to recall the whole "heaven/hell" bit; that is much different then "cease to exist" as you claim.

Dare I say, this seems to be yet another condradiction....you claim to believe in the Bible, then contradict what it outlines in terms of what happens after death.

The Bible does not say we live on after death, it says quite the opposite, many times.

Do I need to look up the scriptures for you?

[mayday]

The visit to "Mary"...or rather, the non-visits to "Mary" after your multiple promises. This of course ended with your "if I don't go this time I'll never return" (my paraphrase) statement. You've not visited "Mary", yet your here.

Why would you post pictures to a "ghost hunter" site, if you don't believe in ghosts?

Not to mention, you have a chair you suggested was haunted/possessed by a happy face/sad faced entity....but you don't believe in ghosts.

Dry lube...

You claim to have "amazing pictures", yet come up with every excuse you can to not post them.

You claim to be a nurse, yet I seem to recall something about vaccines; either not giving them (but reporting you had) or giving false injections with saline.

The list goes on and on....but, this is all really beside the point of your unwillingness (or inability) to provide specifics in terms of your claims. Why is that?

You want to make baseless claims, have at it...but don't expect anyone to believe them.

Don't twist my words. And I never once claimed to give vaccinations with saline. In fact, I've only given two vaccines in my life. They were flu vaccines and were given to two old people, after I counseled them not to take the shots.

One wound up in the hospital less than a week later with a bad case of the flu.

But anyway, you are twisting my words then trying to put them back in my mouth. I'm not going to let you get away with that.

[tiger]

Don't twist my words. And I never once claimed to give vaccinations with saline. In fact, I've only given two vaccines in my life. They were flu vaccines and were given to two old people, after I counseled them not to take the shots.

One wound up in the hospital less than a week later with a bad case of the flu.

But anyway, you are twisting my words then trying to put them back in my mouth. I'm not going to let you get away with that.

I do believe all he has to do is ask you a question and the rest is history!

[tiger]

I think the transparency of the object on the video is from camera burn in. The video appears to be taken by a security camera. Since the camera has been pointing the same direction for who knows how long, the background image has been burned into the camera. When someone moves through the frame the background image remains making them look transparent.


Not a security Cam! Zero lux camera!

[Locknar]

The Bible does not say we live on after death, it says quite the opposite, many times.

Do I need to look up the scriptures for you?Yes. While you're at it, how about the references to "overlapping dimensions"?

[tiger]

Yes. While you're at it, how about the references to "overlapping dimensions"?
I believe that is a psycholical disorder! It affects the mind and makes your mind believe it's here but no now it's over there and now it's back there.

[creativecritter41]

The Bible does not say we live on after death, it says quite the opposite, many times.

Do I need to look up the scriptures for you?`

"The bible"....?

You need'nt look up anything if it consist of you reading some ***** from a book that was or was not written by a bunch of anal, male chauvinist, narcissistic buttwipes.

Do not swear or attempt to improperly mask profanity in public forum sections

[creativecritter41]

Ummmm..sorry to all you NON-Male chauvinist, narcissistic.. buttwipes.

Soooo, so, sorry. :D

[chillzero]

Can I please remind you all that the topic is not Mayday and her beliefs? It's specifically about Ghost Hunters and their evidence for ghosts. Please keep on topic.

[Skeptic Guy]

Chillzero's right. We have to stick to the topic. Ghost Hunters and their evidence...

ummm...well....I got nothin'....

[Locknar]

Chillzero's right. We have to stick to the topic. Ghost Hunters and their evidence...

ummm...well....I they got nothin'.... QED

NOTE: Quote edited by LocknarI took the liberty of making a minor change or two to your post....

[lieslbeth]

Ghost Hunters has always been interesting to me, in the same way that the phony crop circle "documentaries" are interesting. They never seem to mention that two guys from England (?) took credit for them and had a suitcase full of proof to back them up.

I'm not ready to confirm or discount the possibility of ghosts, because I haven't seen enough evidence on either side. I've seen a few things that made me wonder, but not nearly enough to make me say "Oh yeah, that has to be paranormal." I've always believed that, to be a good scientist, I should keep my mind open to possibilities and believe only what I have sufficient evidence to support.

From watching the TV shows, none of the actual TAPS members strike me as being fakers. They seem pretty genuine in the fact that they want the actual truth about whether ghosts exist and to gather real evidence. I know, TV impressions can be misleading, but that's all I have to go on. However... I don't think that SciFi is above messing with them or tampering with their equipment to achieve good ratings. The Queen Mary episode was interesting, in the fact that, had someone not caught the fact that it was faked, I'm sure it would have been the feather in their cap, as far as evidence goes. It wouldn't shock me if this happens to them more than they know.

What I wonder about are the audio anamolies that they find. Every piece of video evidence they find, I can find a variety of rational explanations for. The audio, not so much, but probably because I don't know much about audio recordings and how they can be faked. I'd be really interested in hearing some explanations for this stuff, because I don't understand it that well.

But, if anyone wants a REALLY good dose of woo, the TAPS forums are priceless. Really, they have people there insisting that the Paulding Lights MUST be paranormal, even though it's obvious and has been proven that it's the reflection of lights from vehicles on a nearby highway. Too funny!

[tiger]

Ghost Hunters has always been interesting to me, in the same way that the phony crop circle "documentaries" are interesting. They never seem to mention that two guys from England (?) took credit for them and had a suitcase full of proof to back them up.

I'm not ready to confirm or discount the possibility of ghosts, because I haven't seen enough evidence on either side. I've seen a few things that made me wonder, but not nearly enough to make me say "Oh yeah, that has to be paranormal." I've always believed that, to be a good scientist, I should keep my mind open to possibilities and believe only what I have sufficient evidence to support.

From watching the TV shows, none of the actual TAPS members strike me as being fakers. They seem pretty genuine in the fact that they want the actual truth about whether ghosts exist and to gather real evidence. I know, TV impressions can be misleading, but that's all I have to go on. However... I don't think that SciFi is above messing with them or tampering with their equipment to achieve good ratings. The Queen Mary episode was interesting, in the fact that, had someone not caught the fact that it was faked, I'm sure it would have been the feather in their cap, as far as evidence goes. It wouldn't shock me if this happens to them more than they know.

What I wonder about are the audio anamolies that they find. Every piece of video evidence they find, I can find a variety of rational explanations for. The audio, not so much, but probably because I don't know much about audio recordings and how they can be faked. I'd be really interested in hearing some explanations for this stuff, because I don't understand it that well.

But, if anyone wants a REALLY good dose of woo, the TAPS forums are priceless. Really, they have people there insisting that the Paulding Lights MUST be paranormal, even though it's obvious and has been proven that it's the reflection of lights from vehicles on a nearby highway. Too funny!

Welcome to the forum! I totally disagree since Taps has been caught faking evidence and it was blantant! Has for keeping an open mind in regards to ghosts even if you were to catch something that you would consider a feather in the hat, how can you possibly prove it! The same technology they use to try to capture a ghost also allows them to fake the evidence. And on top of all of this you have the production company making the final cuts on the show and this gives them the chance to make anything believible. I do go to the Ghost hunter scifi forum and your right most of them believe in all of it. But your also correct about the audio which can either be faked by whispering in the recorder or an everyday noise that sounds a little off.

[lieslbeth]

I totally disagree since Taps has been caught faking evidence and it was blantant!

Wow. I had no idea that there's proof of them faking evidence out there and, if there is, I'm seriously disappointed. I'd love to see it, if you have any links.

Has for keeping an open mind in regards to ghosts even if you were to catch something that you would consider a feather in the hat, how can you possibly prove it!

I can't and I completely accept that fact. It's more that I either want to prove it to myself or find a rational explanation. Either way... I don't really care. If other people don't buy it or want their own proof, they can go look for it themselves. My mom and I experienced some really wierd stuff in a house that she used to live in and I'd LOVE to find some explanation for it. It was seriously creepy!

And on top of all of this you have the production company making the final cuts on the show and this gives them the chance to make anything believible.

Oh, I completely agree, which is why I believe that there's never going to be any kind of solid proof found on a television show. Whether TAPS is in this for the science or not, Sci-Fi is in it for the ratings and advertising revenue. I don't believe that they're above faking things, tampering with cameras or staging stuff to get people to keep watching. I also wouldn't put it past the owners of some of the establishments from messing around as well, as they stand to gain quite a bit if there's any evidence of a haunting. Even if TAPS are completely legit, there's so many opportunities for fraud that it makes anything they find suspect.

I do go to the Ghost hunter scifi forum and your right most of them believe in all of it.

Yes. They believe it to the absolute bitter end. I remember posting about the fact that Dave Chorley and Doug Bower admitted to and provided proof that they were behind the majority of the crop circles out there. Rather than evaluating this, I was told that they were just lying to try to get attention, because crop circles are definitely paranormal. It's the worst kind of woo over there, to the point that it's hard to actually read through most of it.

[Xiaan]

I am going to blow my own trumpet here and mention that I have recently blogged about paranormal investigators at www.evidencebasedthought.wordpress.com where I look at the activity of some groups in New Zealand.

[cj.23]

If you are a skeptic and want to post here you have to pick and choose where you can post. I am choosing to post here. Every non-foolish person knows there are no ghosts.

I am a fool then. I refuse to deny the evidence of my senses: while my senses are often misled, and I know how fallible perception and memory are, I have nothing else to go upon. I say people experience "ghosts". On what "ghosts" may represent, and I don't think there is a single explanation but many, perhaps as many as their are experiences, I remain cautiously agnostic. :)

cj x

[cj.23]

I watched it. It looks like CCTV footage to me, not broadcast quality cameras. Anyone know what it was recorded on:? I can't watch paranormal TV, well certainly not my own stuff (barring the Ghosthunters Discovery show i still retain affection for), so I have avoided this.

Now, everyone seems to think the "transparent" thing is the "beastie". To my cynical ghosthunters mind it looks like a patch of light at the end of the corridor, a reflection from a light sorce at this end, an the movement is actually the shadow, quite probably a curtain or something, blocking said light. So it's the shadow we should regard as the object of our investigation, not the patch of light it is obscuring?

Where people are may be important, but I'd like to see the footage before and after the event, and know where the lights were. I think any of us with a camera, a corridor and a light at one end could create a similar image quite inadvertantly? I may be talking rot, but I have to go out so I'll have another look when I get back in.

have fun!
cj x

[cj.23]

I
Let's just accept Ghost Hunters are in for the money -- not the evidence.

A year or so ago I wrote my final "Defense of Most Haunted", my last ever post on that forum. I'll repeat it here, because i think I made a few valid points...

"Right, I'm going to do the impossible and defend the show. I have a LOT less reason to support it than most people, but I have also a little more knowledge of some of the individuals perhaps.

Most Haunted started with a great idea, but one which was fundamentally flawed. A live TV ghost hunt? (well pre-recorded in the case of the series, but effectively reality TV?) Awesome! Yet there is a central problem - spooks do not appear on demand and perform, if they even exist. In the early series we saw show after show when very little happened. It was going to pall eventually.


So the "soap opera" aspect developed - we cared because we cared about the team, and knew them, and could relate to their very human responses to the situations they found themselves in. Good locations, great stories,lots of interest - not many spooks though!


Still it was fun. I was for a couple of seasons employed as researcher and finding locations, and I was pretty convinced Karl & Yvette were serious, and interested investigators. I also saw first hand the technical limitations of the MHL environment.


They brought out a book and I read it. I'm an experienced ghost investigator, and much of it was very sound actually - if they actually followed these protocols then we would have an excellent show!


So what went wrong? Well the falling out with Derek, the clear signs of some fraud, the resulting paranoia, and then the OFCOM or whatever it is called these days decision that MH was not a serious investigation but clearly a light entertainment programme...


Once that decision was made, the gloves came off. There was no reason now NOT to just play for entertainment, and I guess for hundreds of thousands of people who are not remotely interested in the often technical and difficult concepts of psychical research, hey it's still entertaining.


Yet the decision to shift to a full blown entertainment format was not the teams - it was dictated by that OFCOM decision, and the demands of ratings and realities of television. We have all seen how fragile media celebrity is, and the difficulty to keep ahead of the "build em up : knock em down" thing.


What i'd personally love to see is Yvette and Karl managing to get back in to other non-paranormal programming, and having really successful and lucrative careers in other formats. they deserve it, and I don't think this show brought them the fortune they deserved - and hey, they sacked me so I have no reason to be nice, but I'm very honest. They DO deserve more.


I don't think it's Most Haunted in the dock, but TV, and our entertainment culture. We want instant gratification, action movies, violence sex and Blair Witch, not documentaries on Ganzfeld ESP experiments or detailed shows on the Robertson-Roy research on mediumship. No one cares - and no one wants to really think through the issues. We want stories about tragic ghosts, sexy history and lots of ACTION! And that is precisely what we get, because TV is led by ratings, for perfectly sane commercial reasons. No audience, no adverts, no revenue.


The minority interested in "serious" paranormal stuff will read books about it of watch those dull old Discovery shows from the 90's - but our culture wants entertainment, and excitement. That's what you get.


Don't blame most Haunted - they had no choice if they wanted to keep on TV - instead look to yourselves. TV is what it is because that is what we, the British public want?"


cj x

[PingOfPong]

Ghost hunters? Who needs 'em. I have found irrefutable evidence of the afterlife posted on youtube. Prepare to be amazed skeptics!

The departed return! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo8CP9Hhb58)

[dustbunny]

Our English version of TAPS is called Most Haunted, (one of the most uncredible ghost teams you can find). I must say when TAPS started several years ago I was reasonably impressed because they say their job is to debunk ghostly claims rather than prove their existence.

At the moment Ghost Hunters International is airing on Living TV one of our sky channels. Sadly my eagerness to watch them is turning into oh no! here we go again. Has anyone else noticed that as soon as these paranormal teams start getting a bit of notoriety and fame under their belt the scientific side of it starts to disappear? We don't want screams along with something's just touched me. It's not proving anything. We don't want eery music either, that's just annoying! :D Give us something tasty to chew on, good irrefutable evidence! :)

[Alice Shortcake]

Sorry to harp on Mayday's curious ideas about ghosts, but didn't she once post her own "ghost photo" showing a mysterious little girl?

[Senex]

If ghosts exist they surely have needs and desires. There is still time for them to win Randi's million. With so many ghosts around surely one would have the inclination to upgrade their home or get some new furniture. The ghost would probably have to split the winnings with a living person for legal reasons but even if the ghost splits the winnings 50-50 he or she could probably pay off the mortgage on the house they haunt to keep out people, or maybe put on an addition to the garage or even upgrade the closet doors and windows they enjoy opening and closing so much.

Can ghosts travel? If they can travel do the need a conveyance or can they move on there own like Casper? I'm certain protocols can be established for temperature changes, the opening and closing of doors on command or ghostly writing appearing on mirrors that would be acceptable to the ghost and the JREF.

These ghosts hunters could give there ratings a big boost if they could convince one of the more friendly ghosts they encounter evry week into taking a vacation with them to the JREF offices in Florida and perform a stunt or two.

[Senex]

Since we have posters who believe in ghosts on this thread I was wondering if someone could clear up a serious question I have with ghostly movement.

If ghosts have no mass are they effected by gravity? If gravity does effect them and a ghosts can go through walls how come they aren't pulled through the floorboards, go through the earth until they come out the other side and repeat the trip again the otherway forever doomed to a yo-yo existence? How can they make friction occur to move at all?

How do Newton's Laws of motion apply to ghosts? If there have been haunted or "ghosts ships" at sea Newton's Laws must apply somehow or those ghosts travel darn fast to keep up with the spin of the earth. Let's say a sailboat was travelling at 9 knots (10 MPH for this discussion) with a ghost at the helm and the boat hits an iceburg head on and comes to a complete stop? How far in front of the ship's wheel does the ghost land?

I'm very serious. If you spend time hunting ghosts you should have some theory concerning their ability to move. If you can't find a way to plug ghosts into Newton's equations concerning motion then I believe ghosts have been proven to not exist.

[cj.23]

The number 7 has no mass. It exists. :) If you regard ghosts as "objective information" rather than "object" then you will get further I suspect. Mind you, the idea of a ghost moving is something I am interested in, because in my two strongest apparitional experiences in both cases the beastie appeared to have mass and act normally. BTW do neutrinos have mass? When I were a lad they did not have, but I understand they now may have acquired some? :)

cj x

[Senex]

The number 7 has no mass. It exists. :)

What kind of analogy is this? Do you go off trying to detect the number 7 with geiger counters, EVP's and white noise detecters as well? Does the number 7 jump off your monitor when you take a leak and open your window scurrying back to the screen before you return? Does it make creaking noises at night?

If you regard ghosts as "objective information" rather than "object" then you will get further I suspect.
Ghosts, I believe are nothing if not "subjective" something or other.

Mind you, the idea of a ghost moving is something I am interested in, because in my two strongest apparitional experiences in both cases the beastie appeared to have mass and act normally.
When a beastie sits does the couch cushion compress? Does the beastie complain about his wife and the cost of gas and groceries?

I've seen the ghosts hunters talk to ghosts and be answered so I'm sure ghosts can be negotiated with to make a trip. If they have mass they can sit in the back seat of a car.

BTW do neutrinos have mass? When I were a lad they did not have, but I understand they now may have acquired some? :)

cj x

Hmmm, good question. Let's see I have never seen a neutrino but I believe they exist (I'm not a scientist but a lover, however I have a layman's (hehehe...) knowledge) and I have never seen a ghost but don't believe in them. Could be the same thing? Oh, and neutrino theory has undergone change so scientists must be fallible and could be fallible on the ghost question. This argument is fallacious (hehehe).

Let's skip deconstructing your argument and look at the difference between neutrino hunters and ghost hunters. Neutrino hunters have advanced scientific degrees and do their research based on the scientific method. They toil hundreds of feet underground (to defeat other types of radiation from mucking up their results) with highly specialized equipment developed soley to capture the elusive neutrino. I have seen neutrino hunters on the TV who admit to be toiling for years underground without a single success. None of the neutrino hunters I've seen on TV claim negative energy or haunted energy from any parts of their spooky underground work areas.

Ghost Hunters are plumbers or hippies with time on their hands who buy off the shelf equipment from the local electronics store and go off half cocked (hehehe) into the local abandoned house/institution/graveyard at night and look for a needle on equipment they don't know how to use properly to move and claim victory. If the needle doesn't move feelings can be used as evidence as well. Proof of ghosts everytime!

See the difference. See how ghost hunters are silly and neutrino hunters are not. They are not equal.

Oh, I just like teasing the ghost believers. I'm certain their research will someday help mankind :rolleyes:

[cj.23]

What kind of analogy is this? Do you go off trying to detect the number 7 with geiger counters, EVP's and white noise detecters as well? Does the number 7 jump off your monitor when you take a leak and open your window scurrying back to the screen before you return? Does it make creaking noises at night?

N, you miss my point. The number 7 is an abstract entity with no physical reality. It's a very useful one, and in some sense "real", but I was just wondering why if we accept the supernatural number 7 we should automatically deny other supernatural entities? You get my drift? :)


Ghosts, I believe are nothing if not "subjective" something or other.

And after twenty years of this madness I think they are objective something or other. I like the something or other analogy though, which sums up my agnosticism as to what they represent perfectly.


When a beastie sits does the couch cushion compress? Does the beastie complain about his wife and the cost of gas and groceries?

I've had a "ghost" leave an impression walking over my old leather jacket on the floor, and it sounded as physical as you or eye. Never known one to argue with his wife though! :) Incidentally I describe the incident in an earlier ghost stories thread and will dig out the link if you'd like to offer a suggestion.


I've seen the ghosts hunters talk to ghosts and be answered so I'm sure ghosts can be negotiated with to make a trip. If they have mass they can sit in the back seat of a car.


I'm not at all sure about the former - the ghost hunters may have believed that, and b), well I have some empirical evidence for that one. :) The Fortean Tiimes posted a ghost in back of car photo a few years back - not that i was very convinced! :)


Hmmm, good question. Let's see I have never seen a neutrino but I believe they exist (I'm not a scientist but a lover, however I have a layman's (hehehe...) knowledge) and I have never seen a ghost but don't believe in them. Could be the same thing? Oh, and neutrino theory has undergone change so scientists must be fallible and could be fallible on the ghost question. This argument is fallacious (hehehe).

Except that is not my argument. :) I was merely pointing out that until recently neutrinos were believed to possess no mass - so absence of mass is not as you asserted in your post to which I was replying a fatl objection to said beasties.


Let's skip deconstructing your argument and look at the difference between neutrino hunters and ghost hunters. Neutrino hunters have advanced scientific degrees and do their research based on the scientific method.

As does this and many other ghost hunters - so what? Having advnced science degrees and a firm grasp of scientific methodology, in fact have bored a few years of postgrads by lecturing in it, in no way makes me right on anything. Still yes neutrinos exoist, I think you may misunderstand me there. Well in a mathematical sort of way anyhows...


They toil hundreds of feet underground (to defeat other types of radiation from mucking up their results) with highly specialized equipment developed soley to capture the elusive neutrino. I have seen neutrino hunters on the TV who admit to be toiling for years underground without a single success. None of the neutrino hunters I've seen on TV claim negative energy or haunted energy from any parts of their spooky underground work areas.

I'm not asserting a realtionship between neutrinos and spooks either. There may be one, but I have never considered it. If I wanted to create a "Spook of the Gaps" theory I'd hang my hat on Dark Matter, where i could tlk all kinds of nonsense safe in the knowledge it will be a while before i'm shown to be a crank. I'd really rather not though!


Ghost Hunters are plumbers or hippies with time on their hands who buy off the shelf equipment from the local electronics store and go off half cocked (hehehe) into the local abandoned house/institution/graveyard at night and look for a needle on equipment they don't know how to use properly to move and claim victory. If the needle doesn't move feelings can be used as evidence as well. Proof of ghosts everytime!

Or astrophysicist, chemists, biologists, historians and electrical engineers. I think the last ghost hunt but one i was on had four UK Professors, and in the UK that is quite an academic title. As per usual no beasties appeared however!


Oh, I just like teasing the ghost believers. I'm certain their research will someday help mankind :rolleyes:

It already has, several times. :)

cj x

[Senex]

N, you miss my point. The number 7 is an abstract entity with no physical reality. It's a very useful one, and in some sense "real", but I was just wondering why if we accept the supernatural number 7 we should automatically deny other supernatural entities? You get my drift? :)
There is nothing supernatural about the number 7. Call it an abstract entity or a symbol it is clearly different than a ghost that one can hunt like wild game as you and others do.

I've had a "ghost" leave an impression walking over my old leather jacket on the floor, and it sounded as physical as you or eye. Never known one to argue with his wife though! :) Incidentally I describe the incident in an earlier ghost stories thread and will dig out the link if you'd like to offer a suggestion.
I suggest gravity had more to do with leather settling than a ghost.

Except that is not my argument. :) I was merely pointing out that until recently neutrinos were believed to possess no mass - so absence of mass is not as you asserted in your post to which I was replying a fatl objection to said beasties.
But doesn't all matter in the universe get affected by gravity? You mention dark matter later and that seems to put you on my side of the argument since dark matter is only theorized because the amount of matter we see can not account for the affects of all the gravity we see. Dark Matter is an agent for gravity believers. I think you must throw gravity out if you believe in ghosts.

As does this and many other ghost hunters - so what? Having advnced science degrees and a firm grasp of scientific methodology, in fact have bored a few years of postgrads by lecturing in it, in no way makes me right on anything. Still yes neutrinos exoist, I think you may misunderstand me there. Well in a mathematical sort of way anyhows...
Did you manage to fit in ghosts in these lectures? I would raise an eyebrow if a science teacher talked about ghosts as I would raise an eyebrow if my doctor talked about the memory of water.

(in responce to ghost hunting helping science and mankind) It already has, several times. :)

I'll bite. Excluding the best recipies for making ectoplasm what has ghost hunting added to science or mankind? :)

[cj.23]

Hey Senex, apologies for the delay in replying! I was working and stuff.

There is nothing supernatural about the number 7. Call it an abstract entity or a symbol it is clearly different than a ghost that one can hunt like wild game as you and others do.

There may well be a difference, but the number 7 is a derived property of the universe at best, but appears ot me to reside "outside" it in a sort of state of platonic ideal. Now I know very little about philosophy, and certainly nothing worth saying, but in that sense numbers are literally supernatural. Are they different to ghosts? Absolutely. If a ghost exists it exists within nature, and obeys natural laws one assumes, just ones we have not discovered yet. So a hypothetical ghostie is natural entity, not a supernatural one?


I suggest gravity had more to do with leather settling than a ghost.

Possibly, owing to temperature variations. I am still trying to figure it out. :)


But doesn't all matter in the universe get affected by gravity? You mention dark matter later and that seems to put you on my side of the argument since dark matter is only theorized because the amount of matter we see can not account for the affects of all the gravity we see. Dark Matter is an agent for gravity believers. I think you must throw gravity out if you believe in ghosts.

I assume ghosts are as effected by gravity as anything else? However, lets start with the humble photon. We all know they are effected by gravity right? Black holes? But if I recall correctly, and i may well be talking nonsense, they do not have any mass, just relativistic mass. So they are effected by gravity, but er, not as much as say you or I? Radio waves are efected by gravity. Everything is effected by gravity - it's one of the fundamerntal forces?

So what matters here is the mass of a ghost. If a ghost has a mass of zero, it can still have a relativistic mass, or energy, and presumably stay tethered to the planet? :) No idea, ask a physicist! If by ghost you mean "dead guy" floating around, I think a physicist would be a better bet to enquire after than someone like me. :)



Did you manage to fit in ghosts in these lectures? I would raise an eyebrow if a science teacher talked about ghosts as I would raise an eyebrow if my doctor talked about the memory of water.

Occasionally, in passing, but mainly in anecdotes to illustrate points about experimental design and bad social science methodology in surveying as I recall. I'd mention any woo if it served to illustrate a point - nothing, not even Creationism, is without merit if it serves to act as a terrible example of what sort of traps to avoid.


I'll bite. Excluding the best recipies for making ectoplasm what has ghost hunting added to science or mankind? :)

Quite a bit actually, if we wident the remit to psychical research and parapsychology. Lots of things have come out of that quixotic quest - ask Rich Wiseman or Sue Blackmore. I sometimes wonder what parapsychology in the USA is actually like, and consider it possible it is very different to the UK field I am familiar with.

As to helping mankind, a few anecdotes - and yes I know the plural of anecdotre is not eveidence, but hell I may as well speak from personal experience of a few occasions where it has been useful here...

Many years ago I ran a small group at my uni, and one day a lovely chap who was vaguely affiliated with us, a student, wandered in looking really rough. He had, he informed me quite earnestly, been abducted by aliens. (yes i know its not ghosts but hey!). I asked him to recount what happened, and from memory (always dangerous) it went something like this.

Went to bed at 00.30 fell asleep. Woke up by strong smell of ozone at about 1.00am. Looked at alarm clock, then realized there was an intensely brilliant light outside his bedroom window, so hovering above the road outside. Went to window to look at it, and lost consciousness. Woke up at 2.30am on floor, still holding clock I think, feeling confused and disorientated. Tried to call me, but could not work phone and woke up in morning on bed with phone, panicked and drove straight to college. Wanted to know if I would put him in touch with Hypnotic Regression types, even though he knew I detested the idea.

He seemed quite normal now, though in a state of high anxiety, and completely sincere. He was utterly convinced his missing time episode and some marks on his body, bruisng, represented alien abduction. I quickly came to another conclusion - MTLE ( a form of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy whose symptoms can match his experience.). I asked in passing if he had ever suffered epilepsy, and he said no but his father was on heavy medication for severe TLE. I was unaware of any hereditary factors, but we went immediately to hospital, and there was referred to a neurologist. He was subsequently diagnosed - my hunch, based on little more than my ghosthunting knowledge and my couple of years at that time training in psychiatric nursing (I trained as an RMN, a British psychiatric nurse, figuring Imay as well qualify in a possession useful to my ghosthunting - and it has been) had paid off.

Now I'm not saying ghosthunters should go round diagnosing people -- I certainly wouldn't - but I had only looked up TLE because the SPR had published a large number of papers over the years on how it might relate to apparitional experiences.

A second case,, 5 years later resulted in the same diagnosis. This one began with a bright light, a smell of "old fashioned perfume", and a figure which resolved in to a beautiful woman before loss of consciousness.

A third cases was ... unusual. A lady who felt she was being visited by a "sexy ghost". Whenever she got in to bed she began to spontaneously orgasm. On discovering the effect applied on any bed, not just hers, it was clear this was being caused by the position, and i immediately suspected a neurological cause. Her doctor had somehow missed this, and assumed psychiatric issues, but not at all - I was guessing it had something to do with cerebral fuid and pressure on part of the brain. Sure enough, she was treated appropraitely, and it went away. Spare me the jokes, but yes it was lucky it was dealt with I guess.

In my twenty years of pursuing spooks, I've dealt with awful electrics, atrocious plumbing, issues which clearly called for family therapy and all manner of stuff which makes me wonder why on earth I ever let myself get involved. I'm a ghosthunter, not a social worker, so all I can ever do is advise people seek appropriate help from a trained professional.

And that is why, when I hear there are 600 groups ghosthunting in the uK these dys, I turn white. It's an ethical minefield, and you are messing about with very vulnerable people; why I try never to work with the recently bereaved, instead just being supportive and refrring them to the heroes who counsel those facing the raw grief of recent loss, or with cases involving children -- that needs a proper professional trained in that area, and a parent if possible.

I'm pretty matter of fact, hard headed and sympathetic to the individuals beliefs, but at the end of the day most people don't need a ghosthunter, but something more useful, trained help appropriate to their situation.

Still I'd like to think i've helped a lot of people over the years.
:)

cj x

[Senex]

OK, sometimes people will have to agree to disagree. Best wishes cj :)

Ahhh.. one last question... in the third case, what position was that lady in bed? Diagram? Did you really do her a service by recommending surgery?

[cj.23]

:) I really enjoyed your intelligent physics questions, sorry I could not do them justice. Can I recommend a book?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physicists-Guide-Skepticism-Milton-Rothman/dp/0879754400

There are a few bits which are outdated, because parapsychology has moved on, but overall it's a fine read and i recommend it to anyone. It's an excellent sceptics guide, published by Prometheus Books, and probably cheaper in the USA than UK.

Highly recommended!
cj x

[Senex]

Thanks for the heads up on the book. Any last comments on that poor woman's position in bed ;)