Profiling

[Ed]

Given current events, anyone have a problem for singling out "mid-eastern" looking men for closer attention than say Al Gore?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Ed
Given current events, anyone have a problem for singling out "mid-eastern" looking men for closer attention than say Al Gore?

Depends. Are we singling them out while looking for terrorists? If so then go for it. Hell we single out white men after racist crimes and crossburnings. Why? Because they fit the freaking profile. It's that simple. Though I would have to say that I'd single out gore fans when looking for eco terrorists. :D

[LW]

You have to keep in the mind that focusing on the profile-group may leave you more vulnerable for attacks by people who don't fit the profile.

Suppose, for example, that someone who knows that arab-looking men will be scrutinized closely might send 9 arabs without anything illegal to a flight and while the security personnel are combing through their stuff a caucasian-looking terrorist walks past them with all the nasty stuff.

I personally wonder what profile I fit into. Last time I visited U.S. (about a year ago), I had six flights and on three of them I was taken into special security check. (I'm a 27-year old blonde man).

[Troll]

Originally posted by LW
You have to keep in the mind that focusing on the profile-group may leave you more vulnerable for attacks by people who don't fit the profile.

Suppose, for example, that someone who knows that arab-looking men will be scrutinized closely might send 9 arabs without anything illegal to a flight and while the security personnel are combing through their stuff a caucasian-looking terrorist walks past them with all the nasty stuff.

I personally wonder what profile I fit into. Last time I visited U.S. (about a year ago), I had six flights and on three of them I was taken into special security check. (I'm a 27-year old blonde man).

Well they can always tuck something away on the 80 year old ladies wheel chairs as well. But you can check everyone if ya want. I suggest they do. I'm just saying that your focus should be on the more likely types.

A black man can burn a cross as easily as a white man. Who's more than likely to do it though?

[hammegk]

Originally posted by LW

I personally wonder what profile I fit into. Last time I visited U.S. (about a year ago), I had six flights and on three of them I was taken into special security check. (I'm a 27-year old blonde man).

That's easy. You are part of the non-target group who must be carefully checked to demonstrate that no group is being targeted.

;)

[Rob Lister]

Just bumping to see how far we've come

[tkingdoll]

forget it

[Rob Lister]

I did until you bumped it again.

I've read many a debate over the profiling issue, here and elsewhere.

I've concluded that it is more proper than not.

Game theory withstanding on both ends of the specturm, a high degree of covert profiling, combined with a moderate degree of overt profiling, is in my best interest.

[Whoracle]

Yeah I think we should be checking out Mohammad more than my grandma.

[Rob Lister]

Yeah I think we should be checking out Mohammad more than my grandma.

No.

Game theory suggests we should continue to check out both.

Do I seem to contradict myself?

It seems so, but is not so.

Overt v. Covert

[Art Vandelay]

Isn't "we should be checking out Mohammed more than my grandma" a subset of "we should check out both"?

I think that we need to distinguish between profiling in the sense of attention and profiling in the sense of searching. It's one thing to passive observe someone because they fit a profile, yet another to harass someone.

[Tmy]

Ever notice the people that are in favor of profiling are the ones who wont be affected by it??

Its also ignorant to talk about profiling "mid east looking men" . People from the mis east come is a wide variety of shape size and color. The people of Israel already know that terrorists can in fact be women and older people.

[casebro]

I personally wonder what profile I fit into. Last time I visited U.S. (about a year ago), I had six flights and on three of them I was taken into special security check. (I'm a 27-year old blonde man).

With the right facial features you might look like a Mid-Eastern gentleman who bleached his hair to try and look..Non-Mid-Eastern? So, the blonde hair makes you fit the usual terrorist profile, because you don't fit the usual terrorist profile?

With logic like that, perhaps security ought to search gramma's wheel chair...

[Polaris]

I think the problem comes when security, in fear of looking like they're profiling, ignore the people who are most likely to be the kind they're looking for.

Richard Reid is a terrorist who looks like a terrorist. But because of politically correct, touchy-feely garbage, security might be less apt to search him, for fear of looking like they're accusing Reid's ethnic group of the terrorism that Reid's ethnic group frequently commits (and in Reid's individual case, DID commit). So they stop the old ladies and small blonde haired kids and search them. And this leads to situations such as this one: http://www.snopes.com/military/medal.htm

To play devils advocate though, I do recall hearing a story about al-Qaida planning to use Chechens the next time around, because they can pass as white, or to use black Muslims (that is, Muslims who are black, not Nation of Islam members - God, that's confusing), rather than the stereotypical ticking Arab.

[Chaos]

Ever notice the people that are in favor of profiling are the ones who wont be affected by it??

Its also ignorant to talk about profiling "mid east looking men" . People from the mis east come is a wide variety of shape size and color. The people of Israel already know that terrorists can in fact be women and older people.

Now that you mention it... one of my classmates in 7th to 10th grade was from Iran... blue eyes, fair skin, and blonde as a bale of hay. And Iran *is* one of the countries that have a habit of breeding terrorists. (Not that I think my ex-classmate is one, of course)

[casebro]

But subjectively, isn't it getting on to five years since we've suffered a terrorist act on U.S. soil? Couldn't you say the whole war on terror thing is working?

[Polaris]

Now that you mention it... one of my classmates in 7th to 10th grade was from Iran... blue eyes, fair skin, and blonde as a bale of hay. And Iran *is* one of the countries that have a habit of breeding terrorists. (Not that I think my ex-classmate is one, of course)

Iran funds terrorism, but except for that loon in Chapel Hill, I can't think of any Iranian terrorists. It's been Arabs doing it for them by proxy, in Lebanon, etc. In fact, the ones that the SAS greased in the embassy were Iranian Arabs, now that I think about it, not ethnic Persians/Azeris.

Some Iranians are more white than some "white" people I know. They ARE Aryans after all. Iranians aren't involved in al-Qaida - however, Arabs, Chechens and Pakistanis are, and heavily at that.

[Whoracle]

My grandma can't even make it to the mailbox without stopping to catch her breath. I think it's safe to say she isn't hijacking a plane. We have limited resources here, so who really who is more likely to hijack a plane, a guy with a "towell" on his head or an 80 year old? When's the last time an 80 year old hijacked a plane? Lets drop the PC BS here. Security will be more successful if we look at the people more likely to be causing problems. We're trying to save lives here, so forget fairness.

Also don't think white people don't get profiled. Where I live the cops go after young white people hoping to bust them for drugs/DUI and I have been pulled over several times by cops trying to find drugs on me. Mostly because the local white youth has nothing better to do than get drunk and high. If that's whose causing the problems that's who we should be looking for.

[schplurg]

You have to keep in the mind that focusing on the profile-group may leave you more vulnerable for attacks by people who don't fit the profile.It's okay, we're watching you too ;)

[shecky]

But subjectively, isn't it getting on to five years since we've suffered a terrorist act on U.S. soil? Couldn't you say the whole war on terror thing is working?

I think a better case can be made that terrorism isn't quite the threat we may think it is.

[Polaris]

I think a better case can be made that terrorism isn't quite the threat we may think it is.

Just because there haven't been any actual attacks, there have been plenty of foiled plots since 9/11. A plot was unravelled just this weekend in Canada.
Remember, the terrorists only have to get lucky once - we have to have luck every time.

Two things are probably doing more than anything - Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is in prison, and most of the raw recruits are going to Iraq.

[bigred]

But subjectively, isn't it getting on to five years since we've suffered a terrorist act on U.S. soil? Couldn't you say the whole war on terror thing is working?
You could, but many GW-bashing-bandwagoneers would rather die themselves than do so. :rolleyes:

PS and oh btw, I'm not exactly GW's biggest fan and souring more on him/his plans each day. But overall I quite agree w/the pre-emptive strike and taking the war overseas vs sitting back and waiting till it came to us. Anyway....

Hell yes profiling makes sense and enough w/the PC BS, as someone else said. No it's far from fool-proof and how it's done obviously makes all the diff, but generally it's worth doing.

[zenith-nadir]

Some say profiling is nothing less than discrimination. They claim that suspicion based upon stereotypes about race, colour, ethnicity, ancestry, religion, or place of origin is a violation of human rights. Which is correct.

But when one is confronted with 9-11, Bali, Madrid, London, one must ask are there times in history where a society cannot wait until it has reasonable belief before it becomes suspicious about a certain race, colour, ethnicity, ancestry, religion, or place of origin. In times of urgency - such as the current age of islamic terrorism - one must rebalance freedom and civil liberties against security. You cannot just wait for reasonable suspicion before you act because in some cases it is too late at that point.

It's a hard question which has no correct answer.

[The Don]

I personally wonder what profile I fit into. Last time I visited U.S. (about a year ago), I had six flights and on three of them I was taken into special security check. (I'm a 27-year old blonde man).
Cute ?

Were the security officers heterosexual women or homosexual men perhaps ?