Anna Anderson's intestine switch

[ChatNoir]

Well, Dmitri said they were left alone. It all depends on whom you choose to believe.
Yes, and personally, I don't believe people who have proven themselves to be liars.
LIKE I SAID, estimates and guesses made years after seeing her, no proof.
So you think FS's mother made estimates and guesses?
From the investigative papers of Dr. Berenberg-Gossler, lawyer opposing AA.
I rest my case.
No such report exists. One person claimed it did, and then got very angry when asked to produce it. That factory is long gone and there are no records. You need to stop stating this as fact when it's not.
Even without the report, we have the statements from FS's family that "she received no wounds in the explosion at the AEG, and did not go into a hospital until later." Besides, the wounds that AA had, were not compatible with shrapnel wounds.
It was Olga Alexandrovna who knew it was Maria and said 'someone passed a garbled version of the story to AA'.
No, the story started with Baroness von Buxhoeveden.
From Frau Rathlef's book:
Nevertheless, I found one other very important witness in Rumania in the person of Mr. Nikolai Sablin, a former officer of the Tsar's yact, the Standard, who now lives in Bucharest. The police authorities summoned Mr. N V. Sablin to appear, to examine the investigations into the affair of the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Mr. N. V. Sablin brought a Mr. Soldatenkov with him, who had just arrived from London, where he was in the service of the Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna.
After Mr. Sablin had studied the material, he confirmed various statements which the invalid had made. He affirmed that he had been present when the little Grand Duchess Anastasia had had her finger caught in the carriage door. He confirmed that a mole had been removed from her left shoulder, and said that during their cruises among the Finnish skerries he had often seen the Imperial children bathing in the sea. He had always teased the Grand Duchess Anastasia about the mole on her shoulder, and he remembered that the Tsaritsa Alexandra had remarked that this mole must be removed when the Grand Duchess Anastasia was bigger. Mr. Sablin also confirmed the malformation of the foot. Mr. Soldatenkov said that, from the photographs, it was certainly a Romanov face. The lower half of the face, for example, was exactly like Xenia Alexandrovna, whom he knew very well. The upper half was very like that of the Tsar.
LIKE I SAID, go back to the earlier pages of this thread where it was discussed at length. See Chat, this is how you go in circles,making threads go on for dozens of pages and eventually getting shut down when mods tire of the repetition. (as has happened all over the net) Is your memory really that bad, or do you just enjoy baiting me?
No, I just enjoy pointing out how very wrong you are.
Fallows was AA's lawyer who began her case, and leader of "Grandanor' corporation, which sold shares of what money AA might win. Do we trust him?
You seem to trust Berenberg Gossler..........
Funny no one ever remembered the real Anastasia as having 'luminous blue eyes', Gibbes said they were grey, most others never mention their color. So if AA had unforgettable eyes, they sure weren't Anastasia's.
Gibbes also described Maria's "blue pools" as grey. Could he have been color blind?
Viburouva describes AN's eyes as blue.
Gilliard stated that: "AA had nothing in common with AN except for the color of the eyes."
And I could show you quotes from other forums where you change the color every time this comes up.
Then please feel free to do so.
But again, hair color is subjective and easy to dye so it counts for nothing.
Yes, I am sure they had a marvellous beauty parlor at Dalldorf.......
HairSTYLES are easier to change than hair color. So take the braid out. Means nothing. The picture of FS shows a side parted hairstyle identical to AA's when she was found.
You seem to forget that the photo was never authenticated.
Earlier in this thread, I listed you several books containing the information.
Obviously, you have not read any of them. Because if you had, you would find Otto Reche barely mentioned.
Vanesis did no face tests.
He did much more important ear tests.
Of course. That's why they had all the pics and details of the family. But some were of after, alleging one of the Tsar's daughters escaped.
Sorry, these magazines were from before the revolution. This is what gave the two insane women(AA and Clara) the idea to make up the story that became AA's claim.
Wrong again. AA's claim to be Anastasia came months before Clara came to Dalldorf. And Clara was never declared insane, only pathological.
It's in many books that she did,
Then you better be prepared to quote them.
and she was the one who showed AA the pictures and told her she looked like Tatiana.
No, she did not show AA the pictures. She just yelled out: I know who you are. You are Tatiana.
SIGH! Again, is this a game? You know the answer to this one too!
Last Days of the Romanovs 1920 Robert Wilton
And when was it translated into German, if ever?
Thirteen Years at the Russian Court 1921 Pierre Gilliard
In English. When was it translated to German?
The Real Tsaritsa 1922 Lili Dehn
Again in English. When was it translated to German?
Memories of the Russian Court 1923 Anna Vyrubova
Also in English. When was it translated to German?
Life and Times of Alexandra Feodorovna and Left Behind - Sophie Buxhoevedon
1928.
And what does this have to do with AA? She was never in Russia.
I did not say that, I just pointed out that Miss von Klemenz was the one who stated that AA obviously knew how to play the piano, not me.
HOLD ON a minute, this is how you are misleading. The 'medical records' are only an exam at the asylum saying AA had at one time been pregnant. There is no record of the baby's birth or existence. This is why AA had to make up the story of the Romanian orphanage, since she had to explain a baby.
And that is all I am saying: AA was found to have born a child.
What happened to FS's baby? We'll never know. It was illegitimate, a shame in those days. Maybe it died, maybe she threw it in the trash can, maybe she put it on someone's doorstep, maybe she had a miscarriage or an abortion. But FS was pregnant, because AA was and AA was FS.
No, dear, there is NO record or recollection anywhere about FS being pregnant. Only in your mind.

[Franziska]

Chat, I don't have time to argue with you. Please, just give it up and get another more productive hobby. AA was proven to be FS by DNA tests, and DNA also proved that Anastasia died with her family in 1918. Sorry, but there's really no need rehashing all this old 'what if' stuff that is contradictory and questionable. "This person said this" really means nothing compared to the DNA. AA=FS. Anastasia= dead in 1918. End of story.

[ChatNoir]

Chat, I don't have time to argue with you. Please, just give it up and get another more productive hobby. AA was proven to be FS by DNA tests, and DNA also proved that Anastasia died with her family in 1918. Sorry, but there's really no need rehashing all this old 'what if' stuff that is contradictory and questionable. "This person said this" really means nothing compared to the DNA. AA=FS. Anastasia= dead in 1918. End of story.

So what on earth are you doing here in the first place?

[Franziska]

So what on earth are you doing here in the first place?


I told you, I came here to make fun of conspiracy theories(ts)

This is not a history forum, this is a skeptic forum.

[ChatNoir]

So why did you have the need to jump on my first post like a preying mantiss? You don't fool me for a second.

[Franziska]

Because, Chat, you came here with your same old pro AA rhetoric/snake oil you've spread all over the net for years. But I did NOT come here to get into yet another endless circular 'discussion' with you, and never expected you to show up.

[ChatNoir]

Because, Chat, you came here with your same old pro AA rhetoric/snake oil you've spread all over the net for years. But I did NOT come here to get into yet another endless circular 'discussion' with you, and never expected you to show up.
For years? I came to the net about two years ago. Surely you have me mixed up with someone else. And if you did not come here to discuss with me, you should have ignored my first post, which was not directed at you.

[Franziska]

Once you started peddling your rusty old wares and snake oil I was obliged to stay and try to save any potential suckers from falling for your sales pitch. But you know Chat, this is really worn out. We have an answer to our questions, so the case is closed. Nothing you can bring up now is going to change that. So let's find another topic.

[Alt+F4]

I was obliged to stay and try to save any potential suckers from falling for your sales pitch.

Seems unlikely. Maybe 7-8 people on earth still believe that AA was Anastasia.

[ChatNoir]

Seems unlikely. Maybe 7-8 people on earth still believe that AA was Anastasia.

And somehow I cannot help thinking that Franzisca is one of them. Why this uproar over the apparent likenesses between Anna Anderson and Anastasia? Is her faith in the DNA that weak? I simply find it very interesting.

[Alt+F4]

And somehow I cannot help thinking that Franzisca is one of them. Why this uproar over the apparent likenesses between Anna Anderson and Anastasia? Is her faith in the DNA that weak? I simply find it very interesting.

I find it interesting from a psychological standpoint. Some family members wanted so hard to not believe the truth of what happened in Ekaterinburg in 1918 that they clung to the false hope of AA for years. Totally understandable. It's hard to have closure without seeing a dead body.

[Franziska]

I find it interesting from a psychological standpoint. Some family members wanted so hard to not believe the truth of what happened in Ekaterinburg in 1918 that they clung to the false hope of AA for years. Totally understandable. It's hard to have closure without seeing a dead body.

Now that we have all the bodies, I hope the whole world can have closure.

[Alt+F4]

Now that we have all the bodies, I hope the whole world can have closure.

Probably, since I doubt there is anyone left alive that knew Anastasia well.

[Seanette]

Probably, since I doubt there is anyone left alive that knew Anastasia well.

Which brings up the question, does Anna Anderson's birth identity even MATTER any more? Everyone directly concerned in that matter is nearly certain to be dead, what with the Romanovs having been killed 90 years ago.

[Alt+F4]

Which brings up the question, does Anna Anderson's birth identity even MATTER any more? Everyone directly concerned in that matter is nearly certain to be dead, what with the Romanovs having been killed 90 years ago.

I think it's an important example on how eyewitness testimony can't compare to scientific evidence, no matter how strongly folks want to believe.

[Chaos]

I think it's an important example on how eyewitness testimony can't compare to scientific evidence, no matter how strongly folks want to believe.

I think what Seanette was trying to say is, even if AA was Anastasia, she´d still be dead for how long now? I think she is trying to suggest that nothing at all in the world, except for the self-esteem for a number of people, hinges on Anna Anderson´s real identity.

[Alt+F4]

I think what Seanette was trying to say is, even if AA was Anastasia, she´d still be dead for how long now? I think she is trying to suggest that nothing at all in the world, except for the self-esteem for a number of people, hinges on Anna Anderson´s real identity.

Good point. I'm reminded of the case of Roger Coleman, convicted of murder, pleading for years from death row that he was innocent. He was executed and later DNA testing showed he was indeed guilty.

Coleman's assertions of innocence and questions over the strength of the evidence prompted Centurion Ministries, a New Jersey charity that investigates wrongful convictions, to investigate the case.

James C. McCloskey, Centurion's executive director, said he felt betrayed by the man whose last words included the statement, "An innocent man is going to be murdered tonight."

"How can somebody, with such equanimity, such dignity, such quiet confidence, make those his final words even though he is guilty?" McCloskey said.

I had a lot of respect for McCloskey when admitted he had been wrong all those years.

Linky:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011201210_2.html

[Franziska]

A lot of men have been freed from prison by DNA results, though eyewitness testimony at the time convicted them. It just proves that once the DNA comes in, nothing matters anymore.

Yes, it is good to admit you'd been wrong. I would like to see Kurth reissue a new version of his "Anastasia" book with an ending explaining how she turned out not to be Anastasia. It would be closure.

As far as 'egos of a few people', well yes, there are a few who won't or can't let the AA legend die for their own ego or whatever reason, but it is more than that because it's one of the biggest historical mysteries of all time. It was also a long court case. So legally, scienitifically, and historically, it DOES matter if AA was Anastasia or not. If it didn't, they never would have searched for the missing bodies, or had all those DNA tests done. Also, just for the sake of the mystery and the interest it generated. It's nice to have a real answer. Most mysteries will never be solved.

Another thing, it's good that the relatives who denied AA and were so villified for years by AA supporters, right up until present day, for 'turning their backs on her' for 'greed' have now been exonorated. Even though they're dead now, it's nice to clear their names and restore their reputations. Some of their grandchildren have said it's good to know they were right all along, and have it proven to the public.

[ChatNoir]

Yes, it is good to admit you'd been wrong. I would like to see Kurth reissue a new version of his "Anastasia" book with an ending explaining how she turned out not to be Anastasia. It would be closure.
Funny, I remember Kurth explaining that the court case ended non liquet, meaning that she was never proven to be Anastasia.
As far as 'egos of a few people', well yes, there are a few who won't or can't let the AA legend die for their own ego or whatever reason,
And some people just cannot bear the truth, but try to explain it away with their own speculations and fiction. Whatever the DNA result was, it does not change what went before.
Another thing, it's good that the relatives who denied AA and were so villified for years by AA supporters, right up until present day, for 'turning their backs on her' for 'greed' have now been exonorated.
You still have not explained this thing about greed.
Even though they're dead now, it's nice to clear their names and restore their reputations. Some of their grandchildren have said it's good to know they were right all along, and have it proven to the public.
What reputations? You really ought to explain this a little more.

[Franziska]

Chat, you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. I am not going to play your little game and humor you by saying it all again so you can be entertained. I think you can see that no one else cares.

[ChatNoir]

Chat, you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. I am not going to play your little game and humor you by saying it all again so you can be entertained. I think you can see that no one else cares.

No, I have no idea what you are talking about. As usual.

[Franziska]

Chat, perhaps you should be checked for Alzheimer's. I work with Alzheimer's patients, and one of the biggest problems is their obsession with repetition.They will demand to be taken to the bathroom though you have just brought them back, ask for a glass of water over and over though you have given them one and it's sitting next to them, ask to have their shoes put on and taken off and put back on, all the time swearing you never put the shoes on. They will demand the bed be pulled down and remade, angrily insisting this had not been done a few minutes before, or a dozen times in the last hour. You, Chat, continue to play 'stone soup' with me asking me questions you know we have discussed in this thread, not to mention in many, many others all over the place. You, Chat, are playing a game, and would die of boredom if you didn't have an outlet to play the AA game. Either that, or you are coming down with Alzheimer's. But I have said it all over and over again, and quite honestly Chat, NO ONE else wants to hear it. You can see the people here on this forum certainly do not. Time to move on.

[ChatNoir]

Your personal accusations are now of such a nature that I am surprised that the moderators are letting you go on.
I have so far been accused of being a liar by little Chaos.
Now you are accusing me of having Alzheimers.
What will be the next?
If you cannot discuss this story in an intelligent way, I suggest you leave the forum. Just because you cannot back up your fiction, does not give you the right to mindless accusations.

[Franziska]

Your personal accusations are now of such a nature that I am surprised that the moderators are letting you go on.

I'm surprised the mods have let the whole thing go on. Others have locked them for being redundant and never progressing in a productive and constructive way, dog chasing his tail, circular, never ending, etc.

I have so far been accused of being a liar by little Chaos.

How about delusional?

Now you are accusing me of having Alzheimers.

I'm saying your repetition and your denial of my previous responses and the obsession with asking the same things over and over and demanding answers denying they've been answered are all signs of the disease, and I've worked with many patients. It's either Alzheimer's or you are playing a childish game.

What will be the next?

Hopefully, you finding a new hobby.

If you cannot discuss this story in an intelligent way, I suggest you leave the forum. Just because you cannot back up your fiction, does not give you the right to mindless accusations.

Okay, this makes me lead toward the 'delusional' idea. Do you truly believe what I am saying is fiction? That is sad. Chat, please, let this go and move on.

[ChatNoir]

And as usual, you have nothing to add to the discussion. Pity.
And if you had not been writing fiction, you would have been able to back it up, something you can never do.
One must only wonder what you are doing here.

[Franziska]

There is nothing left to discuss unless you want to rehash the same old junk over and over, but I don't, and nobody else wants to see it. I know you enjoy trying to nag me into responding by accusing me of never saying anything but that is ridiculous and you know it. (unless you have Alzheimer's) Anyone can read this thread and judge for themselves if I have not contributed anything or if I post 'fiction.' (but really, nobody cares) The 'fiction' is that AA was Anastasia, but thanks to the DNA, we now have the truth. I'm sorry you can't accept reality, but this is getting very old.

One must only wonder what you are doing here.

Really, the other members must be wondering what is wrong with you for acting this way, and what is wrong with me for continuing to bother to respond.

[ChatNoir]

Nagging you into responding? My dear, I don't think that's at all necessary, you throw yourself into the fray like a maniac. Too bad you have nothing else than personal attacks to contribute to the discussion. And never being able to back up all your silly statements. But that's how it is when you write fiction, you will never be able to substantiate your stories.

[Franziska]

You know one thing I've always found weird about this AA's DNA conspiracy stuff is that people believe this and try to find any lame reason to discredit the DNA, when it really doesn't affect their lives one way or the other- yet when you see all the 'baby daddy' news stories and shows, where those guys' lives are directly involved, sometimes meaning child support for 18 years to a woman they can't stand, they never claim the DNA was switched, the other perspective father 'paid off' the scientists, or any mess like that. They get the results and it's accepted, for better or worse. So why can't AA supporters?

[ChatNoir]

You know one thing I've always found weird about this AA's DNA conspiracy stuff is that people believe this and try to find any lame reason to discredit the DNA, when it really doesn't affect their lives one way or the other- yet when you see all the 'baby daddy' news stories and shows, where those guys' lives are directly involved, sometimes meaning child support for 18 years to a woman they can't stand, they never claim the DNA was switched, the other perspective father 'paid off' the scientists, or any mess like that. They get the results and it's accepted, for better or worse. So why can't AA supporters?

Apart from you, I cannot see anybody else on this board talking about discrediting the DNA............

[Alt+F4]

They get the results and it's accepted, for better or worse. So why can't AA supporters?

Most people don't like to admit when they are wrong. It's human nature.

[ChatNoir]

I think the real mystery here is: Who was really Anna Anderson?

[Franziska]

Most people don't like to admit when they are wrong. It's human nature.

That's true, but many of those guys who don't want to be the father rant and yell, swear it's not their child, claim they never slept with the mother, etc. always immediately accept the results, even if they are sorry to hear them and upset. AA supporters will not.

If DNA tests were going to be manipulated, or mistakes made, it would be much more likely to happen on a small, local scale involving non-famous people and no-name labs than on a large, historical, high profile media case like AA's, with world renowned labs and highly respected scientists, yet I've never seen or heard of any reluctant father denying the paternity tests and saying 'something must have happened this can't be right', or making up conspiracies.

[Franziska]

I think the real mystery here is: Who was really Anna Anderson?

No, Chat, that mystery is over. The only questions left are who helped Franziska with her claim, how they did it, what were their motives, and who among her backers was honestly mistaken and who was deliberately lying to try to falsely promote her as a dead princess.

[tsig]

I think the real mystery here is: Who was really Anna Anderson?

The real mystery is why should anyone care?

[ChatNoir]

No, Chat, that mystery is over.
It is? I didn't know that the DNA could identify the person.
The only questions left are who helped Franziska with her claim, how they did it, what were their motives, and who among her backers was honestly mistaken and who was deliberately lying to try to falsely promote her as a dead princess.
And how do you know that they were deliberately lying?

[Franziska]

It is? I didn't know that the DNA could identify the person.

Let's see:

1. AA was identified by 1920's detectives as being FS
2. AA's DNA matched that of FS's nephew with 99.9% likelihood of relation. I recently saw on TV that a girl claiming to be Jerry Lewis's illegitimate daughter matched her DNA to that of Jerry's son Gary Lewis and it came out they were 88% likely to be related and that was enough- so you see FS's is much higher. In fact, 99.9% is as high as it gets, and higher than most paternity tests come out to be. There is no such thing as a 100% in finding out who someone IS, only who they aren't. This is why AA got a 100% exclusion from being Anastasia, and a 99.9% chance of being FS.
3. AA looks exactly like FS
4. 1994 computerized facial comparisons, much more advanced than the ones done in the old days, declared that AA and FS were the same person
5.. There are no other suspects as to who she was other than FS and Anastasia, and we know she's not Anastasia. So what we have here is a case of OJ and the 'real killer'- there is no real killer, because he did it, and there is no other person who AA was, because she was FS.

Now, do you really believe AA was some random person who just happened to be maternally related to FS, when all ther other evidence points to FS? And don't bother to give us your list again, we've already seen it. And as you can also see, most people here on this board do not care.

And how do you know that they were deliberately lying?

That is what I would like to find out, and what I said was the last mystery. The entire story behind her claim, who lied, who was suckered, what were the motives, who knew what and when did they know it, what part did she play, etc. The mystery of her identity itself is closed.

[Franziska]

The real mystery is why should anyone care?

That's another thing- WHY would anyone care enough to fake the DNA results just to 'discredit' AA as some of her supporters claim? Who would care? The Queen gets accused, but does she have enough money to pay off scientists to put their careers at risk by falsifying results? She'd have to pay them enough to set them for the rest of their lives, since being found out would ruin them (not to mention they'd have too much pride in their work and integrity to do it anyway) she isn't that rich, and why would she care? So her grandfather wouldn't have to be embarrassed for not accepting AA? For denying the family asylum in England? Is it worth that much? Does she care? I would say NO to all questions, and besides, she can't even stop the questions over Diana and other things, so why would she be so all powerful behind stopping AA? And if not the Queen, WHO? Oh that's right, the Russians, but WHY? The answer is of course, NOBODY, the queen or anyone else, it's ridiculous. Just trying to point out that one of the biggest factors in the alleged conspiracies concerning AA and DNA is that no one would care enough to go so far!

[ChatNoir]

Let's see:

1. AA was identified by 1920's detectives as being FS
Yes, identified from a blurry photo in a paper from which "one could recognize anybody or nobody" by a witness who was paid 1500 dm for her "identification".
2. AA's DNA matched that of FS's nephew with 99.9% likelihood of relation.
The problem here is that we do not know if Gertrude was a daughter of Frau Schanzkowska or not.
3. AA looks exactly like FS
She carries a resemblance to one photo of AA. That's why it was necessary to doctor the photo before publication. The photo of FS has also never been authenticated, therefore it could be any girl in Berlin.
4. 1994 computerized facial comparisons, much more advanced than the ones done in the old days, declared that AA and FS were the same person
5
As far as I remember from Klier and Mingay, Oxlee thougth that they were probably the same person. Of course, an identification using only two photos from slightly different angles is no identification at all.
Now, do you really believe AA was some random person who just happened to be maternally related to FS, when all ther other evidence points to FS?
The problem is, NO evidence points to FS in particular.
And don't bother to give us your list again, we've already seen it. And as you can also see, most people here on this board do not care.
What list?
That is what I would like to find out, and what I said was the last mystery. The entire story behind her claim, who lied, who was suckered, what were the motives, who knew what and when did they know it, what part did she play, etc. The mystery of her identity itself is closed.
Maybe you should read a few more books on the subject......

[Franziska]

Chat, why does it bother you so much that AA was FS? Because if she was, is your life somehow a little less special? And don't hand us any bull about 'getting the facts straight' because YOU are the one distorting facts and denying reality. Please give it up, for your own sake as well as everyone else's.

[ChatNoir]

Chat, why does it bother you so much that AA was FS?
The only things that bother me here, are the ones that don't add up. And if she really was FS, why was it necessary to manufacture proof? And why did not Knopf call in family members to identify her instead of a paid witness?
Because if she was, is your life somehow a little less special?
My goodness, I didn't even know the woman, what do I care? You are the one who cannot seem to let this alone with your MYSPACE dedication and your silly website etc etc.
And don't hand us any bull about 'getting the facts straight' because YOU are the one distorting facts and denying reality. Please give it up, for your own sake as well as everyone else's.
Sorry my dear, I have never had the need to distorting any facts as reported. But you seem to have a great need for it.

[Franziska]

Chat, the very fact that you are here every day is all the proof anyone needs that you 'cannot give it up.' This is very important to you, for 'whatever' reason.

It doesn't matter what you think 'doesn't add up.' The DNA is all we need. Everything else, as the old mystery shows used to say, have 'a perfectly logical explanation.' This history mystery has an answer. Sorry it's not the one you wanted.

[ChatNoir]

Chat, the very fact that you are here every day is all the proof anyone needs that you 'cannot give it up.' This is very important to you, for 'whatever' reason.
The most important thing to me, is to bait you!

It doesn't matter what you think 'doesn't add up.' The DNA is all we need. Everything else, as the old mystery shows used to say, have 'a perfectly logical explanation.' This history mystery has an answer. Sorry it's not the one you wanted.

Then you explain with your perfect logic why the whole FS affair was one big, fat lie from beginning to end. I am soooo looking forward to your next post.

[Franziska]

You cannot be serious. If so you are truly delusional, pathetic, and insane.

[ChatNoir]

My goodness, that was a mouthful.
Now back on topic, otherwise you may get a warning from the moderator like the one you just got on you know where.......

[Franziska]

Okay run go tell teacher! I don't even think I have to post anything else about how you are, everyone can see it for themselves.

[Franziska]

The last link I posted was the published results of the Russian scientists involved in the testing, this one was released yesterday by the scientists at the US Armed Forces DNA lab who tested the 2007 remains:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004838

And just in from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/11/czar.children/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[ChatNoir]

I KNEW you couldn't stay away!
Now again, answer my question, if you can.

[Franziska]

Here's an article from the Charlottesville Hook about AA, and it quotes Kurth:

http://www.readthehook.com/blog/index.php/2009/03/11/dna-diss-anastasia-manahan-jilted-by-scientists/


Check this out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/4971805/Mystery-of-murdered-Russian-Tsars-missing-children-solved-by-DNA-study.html


Mystery of murdered Russian Tsar's missing children solved by DNA study

All five children of Russia's last Tsar were murdered by the Bolsheviks, according to a new DNA analysis that ends decades of conspiracy theories about family members who had escaped abroad.

So, since this ends the conspiracy theories, this thread's purpose is over! It's not to discuss the petty, now insignifacant details of AA's claim or anyone trying to deny she was FS so she can still be AA. We have all the 'truth' and 'facts' now! This case is closed! Have a nice day, everyone!

[ChatNoir]

I am not interested in Kurth, I am interested in knowing why Knopf, Wingender and Lucke all had to lie and bring in false evidence to convince the courts that AA was FS.

[Franziska]

No, the evidence is not false, 1994 DNA tests proved that AA's DNA matched FS's family. Dr. Terry Melton later told us:

What might be informative is to see how really unusual the sequence from Anderson and Maucher is in the general population. Therefore, this morning (3 July 1999) I did a new search for this sequence in the recently updated database maintained by the Armed Forces DNA Identification Lab that is used by all of us doing Mitochondrial DNA forensic casework.

"The sequence is still unique, although the database is substantially larger than it was four years ago. Therefore, we can have increased confidence that Anderson was indeed Franziska Schanzkowska after all".

AA = FS. Anastasia = dead in 1918. What else is there to say, other than playing games?

[ChatNoir]

Apparently, you did not understand my question. Again: If AA was FS, why did the implied have to lie and introduce false evidence?

[Franziska]

Apparently, Chat, they weren't lying, since AA did turn out to be FS after all.

[ChatNoir]

Apparently, Chat, they weren't lying, since AA did turn out to be FS after all.

Really? So doctored photographs, paid witnesses and false evidence is not lying? Please explain.
Also explain to me why the Schanzkowsky clan never recognized FS as their sister, in spite of Felix's niece begging him to acknowledge AA as FS "to benefit the family."

[ChatNoir]

we can have increased confidence that Anderson was indeed Franziska Schanzkowska after all". [/I]

Increased confidence does not equal identification.

[Franziska]

Also explain to me why the Schanzkowsky clan never recognized FS as their sister, in spite of Felix's niece begging him to acknowledge AA as FS "to benefit the family."

Chat there is no need to go through this again. Obviously, they denied her, after first saying 'that is my sister' because it was a bad thing for her and for them to claim her. She'd have been in jail for fraud, false claim, owned a lot of money, and the Nazis would have put her in a death camp since she'd been declared insane. Look at all the money, trouble, legal problems and humiliation it would have caused the family to claim her! They did her, and themselves, a favor by denying her and leaving her to her 'career' as Anastasia, where she'd be much better off than in any life as FS- a life so horrible the poor woman tried to kill herself to avoid it! Then by a stroke of luck she found herself fortunate enough to play the role of a dead princess, and be taken care of for the rest of her life by one person or another who believed her.

The niece who said to claim her said that many years later, and it was probably because she thought they could capitalize on the AA fame and make some money. However, the people who had denied her were still alive and could be charged with lying previously to the law. Lies breed lies, once they denied her they had to keep it up. Only a few years ago, those researching the story said the family is STILL to this day afraid of being somehow held financially responsible for the mess caused by FS/AA.

Now of course you're going to say 'there's no proof of this', but there IS proof that AA's DNA matched this family, and that the sequence is rare. We also have the FACTS that Anastasia died with her family, meaning that whoever AA was, she wasn't Anastasia. There really are no other suspects and never were, she was FS.

Please don't keep trying to dredge up a bunch of garbage that doesn't matter now. NOBODY CARES!

Don't try to take attention away from the reality at hand and the answer to the mystery now solved!

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004838

[ChatNoir]

Chat there is no need to go through this again. Obviously, they denied her, after first saying 'that is my sister' because it was a bad thing for her and for them to claim her. She'd have been in jail for fraud, false claim, owned a lot of money, and the Nazis would have put her in a death camp since she'd been declared insane. Look at all the money, trouble, legal problems and humiliation it would have caused the family to claim her! They did her, and themselves, a favor by denying her and leaving her to her 'career' as Anastasia, where she'd be much better off than in any life as FS- a life so horrible the poor woman tried to kill herself to avoid it! Then by a stroke of luck she found herself fortunate enough to play the role of a dead princess, and be taken care of for the rest of her life by one person or another who believed her.
This is your take on the case, and has nothing to do with reality. Felix was guaranteed total immunity before he came to see Fräulein Unbekannt and was told that whoever she might be, she would still be taken care of at Schloss Seeon. On the train to Seeon, he looked at photos of AA, and disputed hotly that this was his sister. He was asked about scars on her body and the Hallux Valgus, and denied the existence of both, as did her family in Hygendorf. He also stated that she did not receive any wounds at the AEG factory, and did not go into a hospital until later, at that time for psychological problems. This was also confirmed from Hygendorf. At the first sight of AA, he noted a facial resemblance from the front, a resemblance that disappeared when the face was seen en profile. The manners and voice were also different from his sister's. During the whole confrontation, he never called her by name, and used the formal titulation "Sie", not "Du" that anyone would have used towards a family member. He also said to Dr. Völler: There is no doubt that the lady had no idea of who I was.
Later, in 1938, he stated that AA didn't even look like the lady that he met 11years earlier. Gertrude grabbed her and said: Admit it, you are my sister! (So much for "being a bad thing for them to recognize her!") AA protested, and Gertrude said: But that is not Franzisca's voice. And as we know, no-one ever claimed her as their sister, neither then nor any time after. In spite of pleadings from a certain niece.

The niece who said to claim her said that many years later, and it was probably because she thought they could capitalize on the AA fame and make some money. However, the people who had denied her were still alive and could be charged with lying previously to the law. Lies breed lies, once they denied her they had to keep it up. Only a few years ago, those researching the story said the family is STILL to this day afraid of being somehow held financially responsible for the mess caused by FS/AA.
Again, this is your personal take on things. What about the legal case? After 30 years of trying, no tie to FS was found, and the principal witness declined to take the oath and ended up running away from the courtroom.

Now of course you're going to say 'there's no proof of this', but there IS proof that AA's DNA matched this family, and that the sequence is rare. We also have the FACTS that Anastasia died with her family, meaning that whoever AA was, she wasn't Anastasia. There really are no other suspects and never were, she was FS.
Until we have found Gertrude's birth certificate, there is no real proof that Carl Maucher was maternally linked to FS.

[Seanette]

Is this thread useful to anyone anymore or should Franziska and ChatNoir continue screaming at each other via PM?

[Franziska]

Please...please...tell him it's not useful anymore! Locking this thread would be the most merciful thing for all. I had hoped to end this when the tests came out, but he's starting in circles again and I am not playing his game. It's more stupid now than ever. And I've been 'screamed at' in literally HUNDREDS of PMs by him on other boards, no thank you. Besides, PMs are not as much fun for him , he loves an audience. Really, I am fed up with him and have been for ages. He's also banned from a forum a friend and I mod. I do not enjoy arguing with him, but his misinformation really bothers me and I have a hard time letting it stand unchallenged. But anyway, back to the DNA results, that is the end of the story, and all conspiracies. This is a happy day.

[ChatNoir]

Please...please...tell him it's not useful anymore!
Yes. You tell them.
Locking this thread would be the most merciful thing for all. I had hoped to end this when the tests came out, but he's starting in circles again and I am not playing his game.
Seems to me that you are playing along very, very well. It's more stupid now than ever.
You are sooooo right.
And I've been 'screamed at' in literally HUNDREDS of PMs by him on other boards, no thank you.
I never scream, just set you straight.
Besides, PMs are not as much fun for him , he loves an audience.
Seems to me that someone else loves an audience even more.
Really, I am fed up with him and have been for ages.
For ages? Good Lord, I came to this game about two years ago.
He's also banned from a forum a friend and I mod.
Yes. Good old AnastasiaEvidence who was booted off here some time back.
I do not enjoy arguing with him, but his misinformation really bothers me and I have a hard time letting it stand unchallenged.
Oh yes, you are the big challenger!
But anyway, back to the DNA results, that is the end of the story, and all conspiracies. This is a happy day.
Funny, you don't sound very happy to me.

[Franziska]

Yes. Good old AnastasiaEvidence who was booted off here some time back.

Wrong. She left voluntarily because of you and another rude poster. She was not banned.

Chat, don't you think it's time you and I 'leave voluntarily' before things get any worse? We really are done here, and you can see from the lack of commentary by others except to complain that NOBODY CARES or wants to see this anymore.

I will still be interested in other subjects and threads, but this is over.

[ChatNoir]

Wrong. She left voluntarily because of you and another rude poster. She was not banned.
Seemed to me that SHE was the rude one......

Chat, don't you think it's time you and I 'leave voluntarily' before things get any worse?
The only reason things have gotten to where they are, is that you enjoy attacking everybody that do not share your opinion instead of discussing things rationally. We have seen enough of that on every board you have been on. I came here, answering another poster, and right away you jumped in and took over.
We really are done here, and you can see from the lack of commentary by others except to complain that NOBODY CARES or wants to see this anymore.
You are free to leave, nobody wants you here anyway.
I will still be interested in other subjects and threads, but this is over.
Then leave. Please.

[Seanette]

Let me make my position clear:

When I first started reading this thread, I was completely neutral on the subject of Anna Anderson's true identity, having never taken any interest in the subject prior.

Franziska presents verifiable information and objective DNA evidence. ChatNoir hurls ad-hominem slurs and refuses to answer reasonable questions regarding his? position.

Based on the behavior of the presenters of each point of view, most people would tend to find Franziska more credible. I do, and have become convinced over the course of the thread that she's right.

I suspect ChatNoir to be a relative of Anna Anderson, and believe that he? finds the idea that his? relative is not a Russian princess, but a Polish factory worker with apparent mental health issues, somehow damaging to his? self-worth. I cannot otherwise come up with a reasonable explanation for the shrill fury of Chat's denial of objective evidence.

I personally do not see why one would base self-worth on who/what one's ancestors were and/or did. One's ancestors (direct or collateral) may have had some bearing on one's present life, but do not control that life. It's up to the individual to define his/her identity and worth by who/what that individual is and/or does. My admittedly snarky take on this is that if one's self-worth is so tightly bound to an ancestor's identity that proof that that ancestor's identity is not what that person claimed triggers hysterical fear and rage, the descendant has apparently done very little with his/her own life to earn his/her OWN sense of worth.

[Spyke]

Let me make my position clear:

When I first started reading this thread, I was completely neutral on the subject of Anna Anderson's true identity, having never taken any interest in the subject prior.
<snip>

I was the same way when I first started reading this thread. I then found it interesting and have read it all the way through.
It has since deteriorated into "yes it is, no it isn't". It's like a bad car wreck and I can't look away.

The most important thing to me, is to bait you!


How is this sort of statement allowed? So you admit you are trolling in order to get a reaction?

[Alt+F4]

I suspect ChatNoir to be a relative of Anna Anderson, and believe that he? finds the idea that his? relative is not a Russian princess, but a Polish factory worker with apparent mental health issues, somehow damaging to his? self-worth. I cannot otherwise come up with a reasonable explanation for the shrill fury of Chat's denial of objective evidence.

Well put post. It seems that those who can't accept that AA was FS don't want to believe that they were duped by an uneducated, mentally ill Polish factory worker, in other words, a peasant. Rings of elitism. In this case pride wins out over objective evidence.

Kind of ironic actually since underestimating the proletariat was a big factor in the destruction of the Romanovs.

[ChatNoir]

Funny, but I have to disappoint you all here. I am not even remotely related to anybody in this story, I only have an interest in the subject. My position I have already given: Because of the DNA, it is not very possible that AA was AN. But no direct proof has shown us that she was FS, who, by the way, was a German factory worker, not Polish. But as you have all seen: When Franzisca runs out of arguments, she resorts to namecalling. I am, according to her, delusional, insane, suffering from Alzheimers etc etc. And don't worry, she will be back with more. And that's what ruins this whole thing.

[Cuddles]

Chatnoir and Franziska, stop the bickering and personal attacks and do not continue to bring your issues with each other from other forums to this one.

[Chaos]

Funny, but I have to disappoint you all here. I am not even remotely related to anybody in this story, I only have an interest in the subject. My position I have already given: Because of the DNA, it is not very possible that AA was AN. But no direct proof has shown us that she was FS, who, by the way, was a German factory worker, not Polish. But as you have all seen: When Franzisca runs out of arguments, she resorts to namecalling. I am, according to her, delusional, insane, suffering from Alzheimers etc etc. And don't worry, she will be back with more. And that's what ruins this whole thing.

What ruins this whole thing here, dear ChatNoir, is the dishonesty you constantly display in this thread.

[ChatNoir]

What ruins this whole thing here, dear ChatNoir, is the dishonesty you constantly display in this thread.

Maybe you could explain yourself?

[Chaos]

Maybe you could explain yourself?

For example, your fanatical attacks against Franziska, while at the same time claiming you´re not really interested in this topic.

For example, claiming you accept and understand that the DNA evidence has proven AA to be a fake, while at the same time insisting that those who said she is a fake - who thus TOLD THE TRUTH - bust be liars and frauds.

Maybe you could explain yourself?

[ChatNoir]

For example, your fanatical attacks against Franziska, while at the same time claiming you´re not really interested in this topic.
Fanatical attacks? Apparently you have not followed this thread very well. I have claimed my interest for this topic, but whether AA is AN or not is not that important.

For example, claiming you accept and understand that the DNA evidence has proven AA to be a fake, while at the same time insisting that those who said she is a fake - who thus TOLD THE TRUTH - bust be liars and frauds.
As I have said before: What happened, happened. It is not changed by the DNA. And some people very much changed their stories instead of just saying: I was wrong. And I never stated that they must all be liars and frauds. There were just some people who deliberately lied to bolster their story, and why that was necessesary, is rather strange since they were right in their belief anyway. And remember, I am not the one who wrote the story of AA, I am just trying to report it as it allegedly happened from the writings of those who were there.

[Brainache]

Well reading all of this was well worth it. I feel like a bowl of Borscht about now.

[Foolmewunz]

Oh, I just come back every couple of weeks to see if they're still at it.

Franziska,
A suggestion.... just don't answer the next post of ChatNoir. No one else would continue this contest, but you seem to be unable to let it drop. Neutral parties pretty much agree that the evidence you've presented (over and over and over) tends to prove your side. It's over if you stop rising to the bait. One person can't argue. It takes two.