12-year old girl with an 80-year old spine

[CFLarsen]

Parents of ill vegan girl may face police (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4087734.ece)

A 12-YEAR-OLD girl in Scotland brought up by her parents on a strict vegan diet has been admitted to hospital with a degenerative bone condition said to have left her with the spine of an 80-year-old woman.

Doctors are under pressure to report the couple to police and social workers amid concerns that her health and welfare may have been neglected in pursuit of their dietary beliefs.

The girl, who has been fed on a strict meat and dairy-free diet from birth, is said to have a severe form of rickets and to have suffered a number of fractured bones.

The condition is caused by a lack of vitamin D, which is needed to absorb calcium and is found in liver, oily fish and dairy produce. Decalcification leads to the bones becoming brittle and can cause curvature of the spine.

Dr Faisal Ahmed, the consultant paediatrician treating the child at the Royal Hospital for Sick Children in Glasgow, declined to discuss the specific case. He said, however, that he believed the dangers of forcing children to follow a strict vegan diet needed to be highlighted.


Let's keep an eye on this one.

[paximperium]

This is just disgusting, not due to veganism but due to complete and utter ignorance and stupidity.

Even if they wanted to keep strictly vegan, there are soy based formulas, fortified foods and a multitude of well informed ways to feed a child properly to prevent crap like this. I hope they do get charged.

[Big Les]

I'm confused. Why General Skepticism?

[heavensblade23]

A vegan diet is perfectly healthy as long as you have the nutritional requirements well in mind. Supplements would have prevented this.

[grayman]

A vegan diet is perfectly healthy as long as you have the nutritional requirements well in mind. Supplements would have prevented this.

Purely speculation on my part, but the parents may have considered supplements to be part of "Big Pharma", and/or not natural.

[sophia8]

A vegan diet is perfectly healthy as long as you have the nutritional requirements well in mind. Supplements would have prevented this.I agree. I'm almost vegan, for health reasons, and I take supplements. And since Scotland isn't exactly the sunniest place on earth, I especially make sure I get my RDA of Vitamin D.
Since she's reported to have already suffered fractures, I'm wondering why this wasn't picked up much earlier. There are lots of little rural communes and self-sufficient communities hidden away in the wilds here, making it fairly easy to avoid doctors and health checks. But they aren't generally vegan - long-term veganism isn't really compatible with living the self-sufficient life in this part of the world; in fact, since there's an abundance of rabbits and roadkill here, most of them are healthily carnivorous.

[Showmeproof]

Great, another incident where parents impose their stupid beliefs on their child, and it leads to negative consequences.

[rjh01]

Another good reason to eat a wide variety of food. That way you are likely to get everything you need. The more you say no to certain types of food the more likely something like this will happen.

[Loss Leader]

Wasn't this a plot point on Lost?

[mayday]

I would bet the parents had way more issues than a vegan diet.

In other words, it is unfair to blame veganism.

[Miss Whiplash]

I would bet the parents had way more issues than a vegan diet.

In other words, it is unfair to blame veganism.

How so? The girl's problem was poor diet.

[JoeEllison]

How so? The girl's problem was poor diet.

I think the point is that if a parent feeds their kid nothing but bacon, you can't blame the Atkins Diet.

[paximperium]

How so? The girl's problem was poor diet.

I'm in no way a vegan (love the cow too much) and have had my fair share of spats with nutjob extremist vegans but veganism in it by itself does not lead to a poor diet.

Stupidity and ignorance can. There are many vegan-based websites and books out there that inform parents about a proper diet for kids.

If meat eating parents did the same to their kids, I wouldn't blame meat-eating, I'd blame the parents.

[paximperium]

I think the point is that if a parent feeds their kid nothing but bacon, you can't blame the Atkins Diet.

Hmmmm...bacon...

[Lonewulf]

How so? The girl's problem was poor diet."Vegan Diet" does not automatically translate into "poor diet". I wish more people would stop spreading this false meme.

[CFLarsen]

I'm confused. Why General Skepticism?

Great, another incident where parents impose their stupid beliefs on their child, and it leads to negative consequences.

That's why.

I would bet the parents had way more issues than a vegan diet.

In other words, it is unfair to blame veganism.

Yes, it is certainly worthwhile to listen to your opinions on nutrition.

Do tell us about how you used herbs during your pregnancy, and what the consequences were.

[Lonewulf]

Yes, it is certainly worthwhile to listen to your opinions on nutrition.

Do tell us about how you used herbs during your pregnancy, and what the consequences were.No, Larsen, you're the self-imposed expert here.

Do tell us what makes a Vegan Diet bad, and what nutrients you'd be lacking, and how you cannot find any other possible source for those nutrients.

C'mon, Larsen. Use your expert study skillz.

[sophia8]

Reading the article properly, it seems that the parents weren't living in some rural commune, but in Glasgow. Which makes it even stranger that the girl's condition wasn't spotted much earlier. There's got to be more to the story than this.
An update of the story has this:...the parents, who are understood to be well-known figures in Glasgow’s vegan community.... So the parents should certainly know how important supplements are, would have been in contact with other vegan families and been able to see for themselves how much healthier other vegan kids were. Maybe the girl has brittle bone disease? That's known to be difficult to diagnose.

[Professor Yaffle]

I have a vague memory (I'll try to look it up later if I get a chance) of reading something about soy forumla being associated with vitamin deficiencies, by blocking the uptake of fats, so increasing the bodies need for fat soluble vitamins. So this may have been a contributor if the mum didn't breastfeed.

But feel free to correct me if I am talking rubbish.

I think also *some* (ie very few) vegans who chose this diet as adults do not realise the different nutritional requirements that young children/babies have.

Here's a couple of other cases which may have relevance.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/

http://www.courttv.com/trials/andressohn/110705_ctv.html

[Miss Whiplash]

"Vegan Diet" does not automatically translate into "poor diet". I wish more people would stop spreading this false meme.

Vegan diet does not automatically translate into "completely healthy" either. Not all vegans take the time to assess their nutritional needs. They simply assume, "if it's vegan, it must be healthy" then, when deficiencies arise, they wonder why.

Personally, I equate vegetarianism with homeopathy and weird religions, but that's just my opinion.

[CFLarsen]

No, Larsen, you're the self-imposed expert here.

Pointing out that there is a 12-year old girl with severe degenerate bone condition due to her Vegan diet makes me a "self-imposed expert"?

Should krelnik stop his project, then? (http://whatstheharm.net/) He can't be an expert in all those things, can he?

Do tell us what makes a Vegan Diet bad, and what nutrients you'd be lacking, and how you cannot find any other possible source for those nutrients.

Thank you, you just made my case for me. If your Vegan diet isn't bad, why would you need other sources for those nutrients that aren't in the diet?

Hm?

C'mon, Larsen. Use your expert study skillz.

C'mon, Lonewulf. There's a little girl suffering badly from her parents' idiotic beliefs. Use your critical thinking skills.

[Lonewulf]

Vegan diet does not automatically translate into "completely healthy" either. Not all vegans take the time to assess their nutritional needs. They simply assume, "if it's vegan, it must be healthy" then, when deficiencies arise, they wonder why. And this is an argument for good research, not that veganism is necessarily a bad diet. That's like claiming that, because there are medical quacks that prescribe too much or too little of a dose of medication, that the medication is necessarily not useful. This is simply not true.

Personally, I equate vegetarianism with homeopathy and weird religions, but that's just my opinion.Perfectly logical. :rolleyes:

Thank you, you just made my case for me. If your Vegan diet isn't bad, why would you need other sources for those nutrients that aren't in the diet?

Hm?And yet, you can use these other sources as part of your diet. So therefore, a vegan diet can be healthy. QED, use your own critical thinking skills.

Also, these other sources are not animal matter, so therefore they're still part of a vegan diet. Can you name a single nutrient that you cannot find from a plant or fruit or nut, or spices? A single one?

I've seen many claim that you can't find certain things like iron or zinc in animal matter, and then I respond by demonstrating very rich sources you can buy from simple products at your local supermarket. It seems like ignorance is the only tool you have in this matter.

C'mon, Lonewulf. There's a little girl suffering badly from her parents' idiotic beliefs.There's a little girl that's suffering because her parents did not use basic research, and people like you are just pouncing on it to disgustingly use it as "evidence" that veganism is automatically harmful, and refusing to do your own research or making any kind of argument. You can't name a single nutrient that is lacking in vegetarianism, and you're practically revelling in the fact.. You make me sick.

Use your critical thinking skills.Already have. Try to catch up, would you?

Anyways, I know what this is going to turn into. A bunch of 50 questions and insults in the way of vegans.

It's a useless waste of time just to satisfy people's agenda, when they're no more willing to do the most basic research that the parents of this poor girl weren't willing to do either.

But hey, whatever it takes to attack people with a different lifestyle than yours, right?

I repeat: I have yet to hear of a single nutrient that cannot be found in non-animal products, with the most basic of research. I challenge anyone to list anything. Zinc or iron is out, and I can easily back up what sources can be used.

Also, I love the language here. The claim that vegans just eat "herbs". Yes, apparently, fruits, vegetables, nuts, spices, soy, and tofu are all "herbs". No questionable language here, nope. No weasel words at all. What a skeptical argument.

Sickening.

[CFLarsen]

And yet, you can use these other sources as part of your diet. So therefore, a vegan diet can be healthy. QED, use your own critical thinking skills.

Take a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan). There's "Oh, remember to take supplements" all over the place.

Also, these other sources are not animal matter, so therefore they're still part of a vegan diet. Can you name a single nutrient that you cannot find from a plant or fruit? A single one?

Meat.

I've seen many claim that you can't find certain things like iron or zinc in animal matter, and then I respond by demonstrating very rich sources you can buy from simple products at your local supermarket. It seems like ignorance is the only tool you have in this matter.

Do you eat plants that have been fertilized with animal waste?

There's a little girl that's suffering because her parents did not use basic research, and people like you are just pouncing on it to disgustingly use it as "evidence" that veganism is automatically harmful, and refusing to do your own research or making any kind of argument. You can't name a single nutrient that is lacking in vegetarianism, and you're practically revelling in the fact.. You make me sick.

Already have. Try to catch up, would you?

Anyways, I know what this is going to turn into. A bunch of 50 questions and insults in the way of vegans.

It's a useless waste of time just to satisfy people's agenda, when they're no more willing to do the most basic research that the parents of this poor girl weren't willing to do either.

Sickening.

Maybe if you ate properly, you'd feel better...

Why are you a Vegan?

[Lonewulf]

Take a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan). There's "Oh, remember to take supplements" all over the place.Where do you think supplements came from? God?

Meat.Wow. LOL.

CFLarsen actually thinks that meat is a "nutrient". I'm laughing at this.

Do some basic research before you waste any more of my time. Until you mention any actual nutrients outside of "meat" (LOL), I'm ignoring all of your posts.

Do you eat plants that have been fertilized with animal waste?Possibly. Are you going to argue that the only possible way to fertilize plants is with manure?

Maybe if you ate properly, you'd feel better..."properly". That's nice. "If you believed properly, maybe you'd feel better". -- Christian.

By the way, I probably have a diet richer in meat than you do. Nice fail on an attempt to paint your opponent as "bad" simply because of their diet.

Why are you a Vegan?And here we come, to Myth #235: If you argue that homosexuality isn't wrong, you must be gay.

You assumed I'm a vegan just because I'm tired of them being attacked as automatically wrong, or that their lifestyle is "wrong" and "bad" and "shameful", and that vegan diets are automatically stupid or ridiculous.

Not to mention the weasel words, such as claiming that vegans just eat "herbs", or that the only way to eat "properly" is to eat just like you do.

Americans, for instance, eat 100 kilograms of meat every year. This is actually above the average in developed countries by about 20 lbs. of meat. This average is much higher than in non-developed countries, who eat barely a fraction of such meat per year. I'm not terribly convinced that meat is the quintessential necessity in diets.





And I'll repeat:

CF Larsen actually thinks that "meat" is a nutrient. How ignorant can you possibly get?

[Professor Yaffle]

Can you name a single nutrient that you cannot find from a plant or fruit or nut, or spices? A single one?


If one were feeling pedantic, one would point out that you can't get vitamin B12 from a plant, though you can get some from the bacteria in the soil that the plant has grown in. Most vegans need to eat foods fortified with B12, or to take supplements (edit - if they haven't got sufficient stores from before they became vegan).

[Lonewulf]

If one were feeling pedantic, one would point out that you can't get vitamin B12 from a plant, though you can get some from the bacteria in the soil that the plant has grown in. Most vegans need to eat foods fortified with B12, or to take supplements.

From here (http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm):

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer’s yeast or torula yeast. those sensitive to other yeasts can often use it.

The RDA for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily (1). About 2 rounded teaspoons of large flake Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast provides the recommended amount of vitamin B12 for adults (2). A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. For example, Nature’s Path Optimum Power cereal does contain vitamin B12 at this time and about a half cup of this cereal will provide 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 (3). We recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.

Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12 fortified soy milk, vitamin B12 fortified meat analogues (food made from wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry, or fish), and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements that do not contain animal products.
I personally drink Chocolate Soymilk. I believe that's also fortified with vitamin B12.

2 seconds with a google search, by the way.

Yeast is a fungus, though, not a plant. So for that, I'll admit, yes, you can be pedantic and say that.

[sophia8]

Reading the article properly, it seems that the parents weren't living in some rural commune, but in Glasgow. Which makes it even stranger that the girl's condition wasn't spotted much earlier. There's got to be more to the story than this.
I think it's worth repeating myself, if only to give those who aren't interested in a flamewar something to read.

[Lonewulf]

I think it's worth repeating myself, if only to give those who aren't interested in a flamewar something to read.Eh, it's no problem. It's easy enough to avoid a flamewar when you start ignoring the people who actually think that "meat" is a nutrient.

[ksbluesfan]

Vitamin D would have been one of the last vitamins I would have expected to be lacking in a vegan diet. That is, by far, the easiest one to get.

[Professor Yaffle]

Hoever to continue with the pedantry, yeast is not a plant (it belongs to the fungi kingdom). Yes I know vegans can eat fungi, but you seem to have omitted fungi from your list (plant, fruit, nut, spice), so I was technically correct that you cannot get B12 from "a plant or fruit or nut, or spices".

And fortification is really just the same as supplementation, except that the supplement has already been added to the food for you, rather than having to take it in pill form.

Please don't take this as me arguing against veganism per se, it was purely a point of pedantry.

[Lonewulf]

Pedantry is fun, and about as useful as a scientologist giving medical advice. :D

Okay, that was unnecessarily harsh, I know.

[Professor Yaffle]

I remember reading something recently about rickets in the UK and how it was more common among ethnic minority groups (I think the specfic piece I read was about asian cmmunities in Bradford). This is because their darker skin makes it difficult to produce enough vitamin D from sunlight in countries like the UK. Pure speculation, but this could be a combination of a poorly planned diet, a child with dark skin and not enough sunshine in Glasgow.

[Professor Yaffle]

Pedantry is fun, and about as useful as a scientologist giving medical advice. :D

Okay, that was unnecessarily harsh, I know.

Not harsh at all - it was a completely useless contribution to the thread, but sometimes I just can't help myself. :D

[Professor Yaffle]

If ths does come down to the girl's particular diet, I think blaming all veganism for this particular case would be akin to blaming the 'omnivorous diet' for the state of health of a very overweight kid with diabetes for example.

[GreyICE]

Veganism doesn't lead to a poor diet.

Oh wait, yes it does. Does it necessarily mean that your diet is poor? No. But unless you're willing to put lots and lots of time and effort into research, vitamins, and other supplements, it will lead to a poor diet, especially for a growing kid with totally different nutritional requirements from a healthy adult.

95% of veganism (Not a real statistic) is caused by woo, IMHO. Stupid beliefs, stupid practice. It's far, far, far worse than vegetarianism in terms of woo. And when people decide to practice a dietary plan, not from a desire to obtain proper nutrition, but from some weird philosophy, the nutrition frequently suffers.

If you're one of the ones who practices veganism, but gets proper nutritional supplements, good job! You've chosen to protest animal farming (maybe for the cruel practices, maybe for the resource use), but you haven't let that get in the way of scientific reality. And you chose to protest in the only effective way - with your pocketbook. You can even (if you're a healthy adult who is not pregnant) get all of your nutritional needs without animal products. It's not easy, but it can be done.

If you haven't done the level of research needed, and become a vegan anyway, then you're an idiot, plain and simple.

[CFLarsen]

Where do you think supplements came from? God?

Wow. LOL.

CFLarsen actually thinks that meat is a "nutrient". I'm laughing at this.

You should. It was a joke. Obvious to some, others, not.

Do some basic research before you waste any more of my time. Until you mention any actual nutrients outside of "meat" (LOL), I'm ignoring all of your posts.

But, since you are not...

Possibly. Are you going to argue that the only possible way to fertilize plants is with manure?

No, not at all.

"properly". That's nice. "If you believed properly, maybe you'd feel better". -- Christian.

By the way, I probably have a diet richer in meat than you do. Nice fail on an attempt to paint your opponent as "bad" simply because of their diet.

Again, you miss the joke. Ah, well.

And here we come, to Myth #235: If you argue that homosexuality isn't wrong, you must be gay.

You assumed I'm a vegan just because I'm tired of them being attacked as automatically wrong, or that their lifestyle is "wrong" and "bad" and "shameful", and that vegan diets are automatically stupid or ridiculous.

Not to mention the weasel words, such as claiming that vegans just eat "herbs", or that the only way to eat "properly" is to eat just like you do.

Americans, for instance, eat 100 kilograms of meat every year. This is actually above the average in developed countries by about 20 lbs. of meat. This average is much higher than in non-developed countries, who eat barely a fraction of such meat per year. I'm not terribly convinced that meat is the quintessential necessity in diets.

My, what temper.

OK, so you're not a Vegan. Yet, you fail to see that the silliness in Vegans aiming for a non-animal food consumption, yet they have to go through all sorts of hoops to avoid it - but still can't get around that their veggies are positively infested with animal parts, one way or another.

And I'll repeat:

CF Larsen actually thinks that "meat" is a nutrient. How ignorant can you possibly get?

How humor-deprived can you possibly get?

Since you are ignoring all my posts, I take it you are not going to answer my question about krelnik?

[Miss Whiplash]

[QUOTE=Lonewulf;3762043]Eh, it's no problem. It's easy enough to avoid a flamewar when you start ignoring the people who actually think that "meat" is a nutrient.[/QUOTEI]

I just had a delicious burger. Have a bite....

[paximperium]

Veganism is nothing more than a form of extremism if you ask me. Very few vegans I know, stick to that lifestyle purely for "health" related or preferential reason as opposed to certain people who tend to be vegetarians. I've done enough research in opposition towards veganism to conclude that it can be healthy if done right BUT oh, it can be done wrong so easily, especially by New Age anti-science morons.

However, despite the sarcastic flame bait coming from CFLarsen, I'm going to side with Lonewulf on this one since I have yet to hear a single well thought out argument from the Anti-Vegans except innuendos and as Lonewulf put, "woo words".


You should. It was a joke. Obvious to some, others, not.

But, since you are not...

No, not at all.

Again, you miss the joke. Ah, well.

My, what temper.

OK, so you're not a Vegan. Yet, you fail to see that the silliness in Vegans aiming for a non-animal food consumption, yet they have to go through all sorts of hoops to avoid it - but still can't get around that their veggies are positively infested with animal parts, one way or another.

How humor-deprived can you possibly get?

Since you are ignoring all my posts, I take it you are not going to answer my question about krelnik?
I see irrelevant dogmatic opposition to a position. I see sarcasm, side-stepping of issues and condescension. Not a good impression.

[CFLarsen]

Veganism is nothing more than a form of extremism if you ask me. Very few vegans I know, stick to that lifestyle purely for "health" related or preferential reason as opposed to certain people who tend to be vegetarians. I've done enough research in opposition towards veganism to conclude that it can be healthy if done right BUT oh, it can be done wrong so easily, especially by New Age anti-science morons.

However, despite the sarcastic flame bait coming from CFLarsen, I'm going to side with Lonewulf on this one since I have yet to hear a single well thought out argument from the Anti-Vegans except innuendos and as Lonewulf put, "woo words".


I see irrelevant dogmatic opposition to a position. I see sarcasm, side-stepping of issues and condescension. Not a good impression.

You forgot one word.

"Supplements".

[paximperium]

You forgot one word.

"Supplements".

And that somehow justify your opposition to it?

And that somehow justifies your condescending tone in your posts?
Are you posting to debate and change other people's minds or make yourself feel better?

[Lonewulf]

Apparently, Larsen assumes that he's funny. I'm sure there's plenty of invisible lurkers that we never heard of that are laughing uproariously at his funnies.

Anyways, like I said, I'll be ignoring his post. I have no patience for trolls, or people driven by an agenda to demonstrate an entire group as "wrong" because of the poor decisions of a few.

[Roboramma]

Veganism doesn't lead to a poor diet.

Oh wait, yes it does. Do you have any evidence for that statement? I'd be interested to either way. For instance, do people, on average, who choose to go vegan tend to be less healthy than they were before they made that choice? Is this still true when we account for aging?

Does it necessarily mean that your diet is poor? No. But unless you're willing to put lots and lots of time and effort into research, vitamins, and other supplements, it will lead to a poor diet, especially for a growing kid with totally different nutritional requirements from a healthy adult. Sure, but less healthy than a non-vegan diet that you don't pay any attention about? (I can see that the answer might be yes, but I don't know).
How many vegans fail to do that research? A large majority or an insignificant minority? Enough that they are on average less healthy than non-vegans, or is it the other way around?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but for your post it sounds like you do.

[CFLarsen]

And that somehow justify your opposition to it?

You do understand the point?

And that somehow justifies your condescending tone in your posts?
Are you posting to debate and change other people's minds or make yourself feel better?

:i:


Apparently, Larsen assumes that he's funny. I'm sure there's plenty of invisible lurkers that we never heard of that are laughing uproariously at his funnies.

Anyways, like I said, I'll be ignoring his post. I have no patience for trolls, or people driven by an agenda to demonstrate an entire group as "wrong" because of the poor decisions of a few.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

[GreyICE]

Do you have any evidence for that statement? I'd be interested to either way. For instance, do people, on average, who choose to go vegan tend to be less healthy than they were before they made that choice? Is this still true when we account for aging? Yes. Complete proteins are almost only found in meat. If you simply eliminate meat from a diet, and increase other typical foods to compensate, you will miss tons of essential proteins. You have to very, very carefully plan a diet to get sufficient protein with no animal sources (vegetarians can just eat eggs, but that obviously doesn't work for vegans). Also, note you can't just hit one vegetable protein source, because it'll be short amino acids. You have to correctly plan out your diet every single day, just to hit the right mix of amino acids you get from animal sources.

Needless to say, if you go vegan because of 'think of the animals' without proper thought, you're in for a world of pain.

Sure, but less healthy than a non-vegan diet that you don't pay any attention about? (I can see that the answer might be yes, but I don't know).Yes. The average unplanned diet increases in nutrition if you include meat. The average planned diet is a stupid question, because there are obviously different qualities of plans (I eat at McDonald's every day is a plan).

How many vegans fail to do that research? A large majority or an insignificant minority? Enough that they are on average less healthy than non-vegans, or is it the other way around? I don't know. Moreover, I've never seen a good survey on it (and I've looked). I have seen vegans from both categories, and I know enough about nutrition to know the dangers of veganism. In any case, why would you choose a diet that has a good risk of leaving you with major to severe health complications with bad planning? Seems idiotic, at best.

I don't know the answers to these questions, but for your post it sounds like you do. If you jump off a cliff with a parachute and survive without injury, is it a good argument for jumping off cliffs with a parachute?

[Lonewulf]

And it sounds like you're stating that if someone breaks their legs because their parachute gives way, that any and all skydivers with parachutes are all idiots.

Either way, my prediction was right. This thread is just an excuse to throw insults at people who's lifestyles you disagree with. That's okay; but I see absolutely no reason to stick around.

If anyone has an argument worth arguing, just PM me to return if you wish me to.

[CFLarsen]

And it sounds like you're stating that if someone breaks their legs because their parachute gives way, that any and all skydivers with parachutes are all idiots.

Either way, my prediction was right. This thread is just an excuse to throw insults at people who's lifestyles you disagree with. That's okay; but I see absolutely no reason to stick around.

If anyone has an argument worth arguing, just PM me to return if you wish me to.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

[GreyICE]

And it sounds like you're stating that if someone breaks their legs because their parachute gives way, that any and all skydivers with parachutes are all idiots.
The difference is that one is a failure of a system that rarely fails, and another requires abandoning a system that already works quite nicely for one that requires constant attention and careful planning to avoid damaging you. It's like trading in your car for a go-kart.

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about anymore, except maybe you.

[Fnord]

Purely speculation on my part, but the parents may have considered supplements to be part of "Big Pharma", and/or not natural.
My son, who is both an atheist and a vegan, has mentioned that there is an extreme cult-like form of veganism that rejects supplements for just this reason. They also reject wool, leather, and synthetics in favor of cotton and linen; down pillows are okay, but only if the feathers are "gathered" and not plucked; they eschew deodorants, but use glycerine soaps; et cetera.

[Madalch]

Why don't you want to talk about supplements?
Because he considers them to be a natural part of the vegan diet. So when you claim that a vegan diet is unhealthy because it lacks certain nutrients, he considers you to be full of it because they're all in the supplements.

[Madalch]

I remember reading something recently about rickets in the UK and how it was more common among ethnic minority groups (I think the specfic piece I read was about asian cmmunities in Bradford). This is because their darker skin makes it difficult to produce enough vitamin D from sunlight in countries like the UK. Pure speculation, but this could be a combination of a poorly planned diet, a child with dark skin and not enough sunshine in Glasgow.

More speculation- darker skin is correlated to lactose intolerance, and milk is the food most highly enriched in Vitamin D.

[paximperium]

You do understand the point?
You have yet to bring up any valid ones.


Why don't you want to talk about supplements?
Yes I find it ironic that a meat-eating person who tends to be against veganism is defending their position. I guess I don't like dishonesty.

Again. What about supplements?
You sound like a Creationist-what about the gaps, what about abiogenesis? Bring up a point and stop with the insinuations.

[paximperium]

The difference is that one is a failure of a system that rarely fails, and another requires abandoning a system that already works quite nicely for one that requires constant attention and careful planning to avoid damaging you. It's like trading in your car for a go-kart.

While I agree that Veganism is "unnatural" and can be harmful, that's a similar argument against driving a hydrogen or electric car. Why abandon gas powered cars? "Its a system that already works nicely for one that requires constant attention and careful planning..."

Its their decision. As long as they don't force it down others throats and it is inherently not harmful, I see no problem with it. I detest the PETA folk as much as any, but I know enough vegans to see some responsible folk who made a choice, don't bother anyone else with it(unless it comes to going out to eat) and don't go preaching to others.



Nobody has any idea what you're talking about anymore, except maybe you.
Gotta agree with you there.

[Whiplash]

Thank you, you just made my case for me. If your Vegan diet isn't bad, why would you need other sources for those nutrients that aren't in the diet?

Hm?

I have to admit, I was wondering the exact same thing. If you need to take nutritional supplements with the diet in order to meet all your RDA requirements, that doesn't make alot of sense to call it a good, healthy diet.

[hecaterin]

Vegan diet does not automatically translate into "completely healthy" either. Not all vegans take the time to assess their nutritional needs. They simply assume, "if it's vegan, it must be healthy" then, when deficiencies arise, they wonder why.

Personally, I equate vegetarianism with homeopathy and weird religions, but that's just my opinion.I think of it more as "gateway to woo". Not every vegan is a fool, but a rather alarming number of them are. It's *possible* to be a healthy vegan if you put the work into it, but a high proportion of them are also other weird alt-health nuts, like anti-vaccers and homeopaths. Look at the ads in vegan publications...

[CFLarsen]

Nobody has any idea what you're talking about anymore, except maybe you.

You have yet to bring up any valid ones.
...
Again. What about supplements?
You sound like a Creationist-what about the gaps, what about abiogenesis? Bring up a point and stop with the insinuations.

You both need to educate yourself: Vegans take supplements, because otherwise they won't get what they need.

Sure, some may be able to cover most of it, if they live in an area where they can get a lot of different stuff, but it sure is hard to be a Vegan if you live away from that.

Because he considers them to be a natural part of the vegan diet. So when you claim that a vegan diet is unhealthy because it lacks certain nutrients, he considers you to be full of it because they're all in the supplements.

That's what I thought, too.

Its their decision. As long as they don't force it down others throats and it is inherently not harmful, I see no problem with it. I detest the PETA folk as much as any, but I know enough vegans to see some responsible folk who made a choice, don't bother anyone else with it(unless it comes to going out to eat) and don't go preaching to others.

Ah, but that's the problem, isn't it? Because why are people Vegans? For ethical reasons. They think that meat-eating is immoral and unethical. Which makes meat-eaters.....?

I have to admit, I was wondering the exact same thing. If you need to take nutritional supplements with the diet in order to meet all your RDA requirements, that doesn't make alot of sense to call it a good, healthy diet.

Ayup. It also destroys the idea of Veganism altogether. You simply can't abide the philosophy anyway.

Since Vegans make a point out of being ethically superior, one could argue that it makes Vegans hypocrites...

[DoubtingStephen]

Since Vegans make a point out of being ethically superior, one could argue that it makes Vegans hypocrites...

Any straw in that argument? Do all Vegans make a point of being ethically superior, or just the ones to whom your comment applies? Paintbrush too wide for the job?

It's conceivable that I may have the most difficult diet of anyone on the forum. I do follow a vegan diet as a matter of choice, and I am required to follow a gluten-free diet as a matter of medical necessity. These two requirements sometimes overlap, meat that has been marinated may contain soy sauce, and most types of soy sauce contain wheat. Far more often foods that are vegan are not available to me for medical reasons.

So things like bread, beer, and some other vegan sources of B-12 are off limits to me. I do take B-12 supplements, most days I'll take a B complex supplement or a One-A-Day style multivitamin complex.

Elsewhere in this thread there was a claim made that vegans base their dietary practices on woo. I find that interesting because I was not of the opinion that all vegans were vegan for the same reasons.

I make no claim to be morally superior to anyone, nor do I claim that anyone else on this planet should be expected to live as I do. I make my choices for my own personal reasons, I do not moralize about what other people should or should not eat, and I'd appreciate that courtesy being returned.

Some of the foods I do not eat would make me very ill if I did eat them. Other things I do not eat are merely foods I have chosen to avoid for reasons of my own. In either case I fail to see how anyone else is harmed or even slightly inconvenienced by my not eating any specific food.

[CFLarsen]

Any straw in that argument? Do all Vegans make a point of being ethically superior, or just the ones to whom your comment applies? Paintbrush too wide for the job?

It's conceivable that I may have the most difficult diet of anyone on the forum. I do follow a vegan diet as a matter of choice, and I am required to follow a gluten-free diet as a matter of medical necessity. These two requirements sometimes overlap, meat that has been marinated may contain soy sauce, and most types of soy sauce contain wheat. Far more often foods that are vegan are not available to me for medical reasons.

That's a whole different issue, then.

So things like bread, beer, and some other vegan sources of B-12 are off limits to me. I do take B-12 supplements, most days I'll take a B complex supplement or a One-A-Day style multivitamin complex.

There ya go.

Elsewhere in this thread there was a claim made that vegans base their dietary practices on woo. I find that interesting because I was not of the opinion that all vegans were vegan for the same reasons.

I make no claim to be morally superior to anyone, nor do I claim that anyone else on this planet should be expected to live as I do. I make my choices for my own personal reasons, I do not moralize about what other people should or should not eat, and I'd appreciate that courtesy being returned.

Some of the foods I do not eat would make me very ill if I did eat them. Other things I do not eat are merely foods I have chosen to avoid for reasons of my own. In either case I fail to see how anyone else is harmed or even slightly inconvenienced by my not eating any specific food.

Why do you choose not to eat certain kinds of food?

[Professor Yaffle]

More speculation- darker skin is correlated to lactose intolerance, and milk is the food most highly enriched in Vitamin D.

I haven't read the literature thoroughly, but a lot of academic papers do mention immigration of darker skinned people to temperate climates as a factor. Rickets seems to be less of a problem for dark skinned people in less temperate regions (though I have also read that in countries where it is custom for the women to cover up more, they are also at risk and may need supplementation). So I would say it is a little more than speculation.

Obviously if your diet has sufficient vitamin D then the skin colour is not really a factor, but many people do not get enough vitamin D solely from their diet.

[DoubtingStephen]

Why do you choose not to eat certain kinds of food?

To do an adequate job of answering this question I would have to go into a lot of unpleasant details involving an extremely traumatic event I would prefer not to dredge up in public, so, personal reasons covers most of it.

To some extent I also wish to avoid doing unnecessary harm to other living creatures, although I readily draw lines. If a head of broccoli is too slow to run away from me, I just might eat it. And if our entire society collapses in some horrible apocalyptic way, the pigeons that roost on our garage roof might be well advised to leave before lunchtime.

[paximperium]

You both need to educate yourself: Vegans take supplements, because otherwise they won't get what they need.

Sure, some may be able to cover most of it, if they live in an area where they can get a lot of different stuff, but it sure is hard to be a Vegan if you live away from that.

Educate myself about what? Again, yes Vegans take supplements. So? Perhaps when you produce a scientific paper that shows how unhealthy veganism can be(Hint: Try looking up the a large British study that spans 17years on this-then look up the several papers concerning heart disease, cancer, nutrient deficiencies etc. You can also present several of the papers that show bone deformities, underweight babies etc.) Perhaps then, I'll take you seriously.

What business is it of yours that being Vegan is hard?

"Ah, but that's the problem, isn't it? Because why are people Vegans? For ethical reasons. They think that meat-eating is immoral and unethical. Which makes meat-eaters.....?"
What a big straw man you have. Anyway so what?
What business is it of yours why people do something that is inherently not harmful. What are you, the thought police?


"Ayup. It also destroys the idea of Veganism altogether. You simply can't abide the philosophy anyway.
Like I've mentioned many times, veganism isn;t natural or even super healthy but if done right, it isn't harmful. What business is it of yours what other people do if it is not harmful?


Since Vegans make a point out of being ethically superior, one could argue that it makes Vegans hypocrites...
So? Do you dislike veganism because of its health problems or just because you don't like its practitioners?

What do you want? legislate morality or something?

[CFLarsen]

Educate myself about what? Again, yes Vegans take supplements. So? Perhaps when you produce a scientific paper that shows how unhealthy veganism can be(Hint: Try looking up the a large British study that spans 17years on this-then look up the several papers concerning heart disease, cancer, nutrient deficiencies etc. You can also present several of the papers that show bone deformities, underweight babies etc.) Perhaps then, I'll take you seriously.

What business is it of yours that being Vegan is hard?

What a big straw man you have. Anyway so what?
What business is it of yours why people do something that is inherently not harmful. What are you, the thought police?


Like I've mentioned many times, veganism isn;t natural or even super healthy but if done right, it isn't harmful. What business is it of yours what other people do if it is not harmful?


So? Do you dislike veganism because of its health problems or just because you don't like its practitioners?

What do you want? legislate morality or something?

None of this Chris Crocker drama, please.

To do an adequate job of answering this question I would have to go into a lot of unpleasant details involving an extremely traumatic event I would prefer not to dredge up in public, so, personal reasons covers most of it.

And that's perfectly fine. But then, you are not not eating those things because of Veganistic ideals, but because of the same reasons Elder Bush doesn't eat broccoli.

Hey, I don't like chicken feet much either.

To some extent I also wish to avoid doing unnecessary harm to other living creatures, although I readily draw lines. If a head of broccoli is too slow to run away from me, I just might eat it. And if our entire society collapses in some horrible apocalyptic way, the pigeons that roost on our garage roof might be well advised to leave before lunchtime.

But then, you think I do harm to other living creatures, when I eat cow.

[paximperium]

None of this Chris Crocker drama, please.

Yup. You are a bigot. You're not interested in reasoned debate and are here purely to spew hatred at people who are different from you.

I will not bother to further debate you.

[Travis]

This all reminds me of when my College adopted a mandatory Vegan policy. Which meant that not only could you not buy meat/dairy products on campus but you couldn't bring any, or consume any, on campus either. Needless to say the campus legal department about had a stroke and got this rescinded before it ever took effect but not before I made my own vociferous objection. Of course doing so got me labeled as an "animal butcherer" or "creature torturer" for the rest of my enrollment there. Now, even after all that, I don't hate Vegans........ but I do everything I can, where possible, to avoid them. I just don't like being around people who think I'm some sort of horrid sadistic monster just because I eat a bacon-cheeseburger every now and then.

[CFLarsen]

Yup. You are a bigot. You're not interested in reasoned debate and are here purely to spew hatred at people who are different from you.

I will not bother to further debate you.

Debate the issues, then.

Just a suggestion, of course.

[Mojo]

Purely speculation on my part, but the parents may have considered supplements to be part of "Big Pharma", and/or not natural.


No, they're part of "Big Quacka".

[geneeee]

@ CFLarson:

Using aimal poop as fertiliser for a garden is hardly a point to use in opposition to veganism (edit.).

Myself being an omnivore, in this argument I definately side with Lonewulf.


As for what the actual thread is about: as others have already said, it's the parents fault... not the vegan diet.

[CFLarsen]

@ CFLarson:

Larsen.

Using aimal poop as fertiliser for a garden is hardly a point to use in opposition to a vegan.

Well, then, how far does one have to be removed from animal products to be considered a Vegan? Why is it OK to use animal feces but not animal products, like milk or eggs?

Which leads to the question: What will Vegans do about the existing cows and chickens?

They could let the cows and chickens die of old age, but what about their milk/egg production? You can't leave a cow unmilked. The chicken will lay an egg approximately once a day, regardless of what Vegans think.

So, you gotta milk the cow, and you have a lot of eggs lying around.

Do we destroy food - in a world where millions starve? How ethical is that?

[geneeee]

Possibly it is considered that taking from a cow its dairy products is exploitation of the cow? Animals are going to poo anyway, and if the animals are pets or are not being exploited then taking that poo to grow plants that are able to be eaten is no big deal/a very economical way to eat.

I don't know much about reason why vegans choose to become vegans. Principles...? Anyway, the why doesn't matter in most cases - people can do what they want. Though, when a child becomes involved some action should be taken. Not against the actual diet, but against the parents who have wrongly chosen the diet for the children they are supposed to care for.

If you are going to attack anything in this forum it should be negligent parenting...

[geneeee]

What will Vegans do about the existing cows and chickens?

They could let the cows and chickens die of old age, but what about their milk/egg production? You can't leave a cow unmilked. The chicken will lay an egg approximately once a day, regardless of what Vegans think.

So, you gotta milk the cow, and you have a lot of eggs lying around.
Find me a specific example of vegetarians owning a farm and not properly handling the produce of the animals and this argument could hold up... Otherwise - ???

Vegans don't go to supermarkets and smash all the eggs and spill all the milk so that other people cannot consume them, do they?

I don't see vegans in the street advocating how bad omnivore characteristics are, and that all meat eaters should be persecuted? It's just a lifestyle choice; ranting about it isn't going to change anything either.

[Diamond]

A vegan diet is perfectly healthy as long as you have the nutritional requirements well in mind. Supplements would have prevented this.

A "Mars Bar" diet is perfectly healthy just so long as you take the supplements to get the correct extra nutrients not supplied in Mars Bars.

I think we can file the original story under "Extreme Parental Abuse"

[CFLarsen]

Possibly it is considered that taking from a cow its dairy products is exploitation of the cow?

...cows have a right to their own milk?

What are you going to do with the milk? Throw it out?

Animals are going to poo anyway, and if the animals are pets or are not being exploited then taking that poo to grow plants that are able to be eaten is no big deal/a very economical way to eat.

There are 1.3 billion cattle in the world today. You want to feed all of them but not get anything out of them - except poo?

I don't know much about reason why vegans choose to become vegans. Principles...?

Principles have consequences.

Anyway, the why doesn't matter in most cases - people can do what they want. Though, when a child becomes involved some action should be taken. Not against the actual diet, but against the parents who have wrongly chosen the diet for the children they are supposed to care for.

If you are going to attack anything in this forum it should be negligent parenting...

It isn't just about the children, but also what adults can do to themselves - and what they advocate to others.

Find me a specific example of vegetarians owning a farm and not properly handling the produce of the animals and this argument could hold up... Otherwise - ???

Not vegetarians. Vegans. Two different things.

Vegans don't go to supermarkets and smash all the eggs and spill all the milk so that other people cannot consume them, do they?

I don't see vegans in the street advocating how bad omnivore characteristics are, and that all meat eaters should be persecuted? It's just a lifestyle choice; ranting about it isn't going to change anything either.

But if it is ethically wrong to "exploit" the cows and chickens, what does that say about those of us who do use these products?

We are ethically wrong to do so.

[Professor Yaffle]

Why can't you just leave a cow unmilked (or at least after tapering down the milking)? Surely in a natural situation the calf would stop feeding from its mother at some point and the cow would stop being "milked" by it. I assume that lactation works in a similar way for all mammals - my first child stopped breastfeeding quite gradually, and I had no problems with this. My second child stopped very abruptly and I was very uncomfortable for about a week, but that's all.

What exactly is your problem with vegans supposedly thinking they are ethically superior to you? Surely your ethics differ from many other people. Where you hold yourself to a more restrictive ethical standard, do you think you are morally superior to those who do not? Does this make you wrong in anyway? Why is this a problem?

[Miss Whiplash]

I think of it more as "gateway to woo". Not every vegan is a fool, but a rather alarming number of them are. It's *possible* to be a healthy vegan if you put the work into it, but a high proportion of them are also other weird alt-health nuts, like anti-vaccers and homeopaths. Look at the ads in vegan publications...

I call them WiccaPetaVegans as most vegans are into New Age crap.

Mind you, I'm biased against vegetarianism on a personal level. As I'm over 40 , I bowed to pressure from friends to adapt the "more healthy" lifestyle of a vegetarian. I followed all the guides and recipes and, as a result, sent my triglycerides skyrocketing to the point where I had to be put on Glucophage. Since vegan diets can be carb-bombs, I became insulin resistant and put on 20 lbs, too.

After going to a nutritionist, I eat a balanced diet. I get the bulk of my protein from lean meats, eggs, and dairy products. I've lost 35 pound, I'm off the diabetes meds, and my lipids have come down to normal.

The point of my tirade is diets are not one-size-fits-all. If a person is a vegan and they are healthy, fine and dandy. However, I can't stand for a vegan to proselytize. Many embrace their diet with religious fervor. It's their way or you are doomed!!! My vegan experiment cost me >$3500. Spare me!!

BTW- Cows make nice belts, shoes and coats too.

[DoubtingStephen]

But then, you think I do harm to other living creatures, when I eat cow.

Honestly, I never think about what you eat.

[krelnik]

I'm not surprised this thread has raged on and on about veganism. I added a vegetarianism / veganism page (http://whatstheharm.net/vegetarianismveganism.html) to What's The Harm a while back, and it seems to spark alot of criticism. I've gotten a number of emails about it.

Most of my critics seem to somehow overlook that all but one of the cases involve a small child. They also miss the fact that the site is not called "these things are bad", it is called "what's the harm". The distinction is that you need to be aware that some things can cause harm to you, if you are not careful.

For example, if you want to go pay a tarot reader for a reading, simply for humor and ironic value, I would be the last person to stop you. Heck, I might come with you. But there's a difference between doing that and using tarot to make important life decisions, and that's where harm enters in.

Back to veganism, again I have absolutely no objections to those who choose this diet. However, if you choose such a diet for your child, and you have not done the additional homework about what this entails, you are being an idiot and you deserve to have your child taken away from you.

An infant's nutritional needs are very different from a small child's, and both of them are different from an adult. You may be well aware of what supplements you need as an adult to be healthy and vegan. But are you aware of what your infant needs? What about your toddler?

That's my only point on this matter: be vegan and enjoy it. But as soon as you are choosing veganism for someone else you need to be much more serious & responsible about the details.

[CFLarsen]

Why can't you just leave a cow unmilked (or at least after tapering down the milking)? Surely in a natural situation the calf would stop feeding from its mother at some point and the cow would stop being "milked" by it.

Gradually, over the generations, sure. But then, you are not following the principle. You can't bend the principle of not "exploiting" animals.

Cows as they exist today have been bred for our "exploitation" over the millennia - they are a far cry from wild cows that can manage on their own.

I assume that lactation works in a similar way for all mammals - my first child stopped breastfeeding quite gradually, and I had no problems with this. My second child stopped very abruptly and I was very uncomfortable for about a week, but that's all.

But that's because the child had reached a stage where it didn't need breast-milk anymore.

You didn't stop giving the kid dairy products, did you?

What exactly is your problem with vegans supposedly thinking they are ethically superior to you? Surely your ethics differ from many other people. Where you hold yourself to a more restrictive ethical standard, do you think you are morally superior to those who do not? Does this make you wrong in anyway? Why is this a problem?

I don't like it when people tell me I'm a bad person for eating certain things. E.g., I don't like it when Muslims think bad of me for eating pork. What is the difference? I can't see any.

I call them WiccaPetaVegans as most vegans are into New Age crap.

Mind you, I'm biased against vegetarianism on a personal level. As I'm over 40 , I bowed to pressure from friends to adapt the "more healthy" lifestyle of a vegetarian. I followed all the guides and recipes and, as a result, sent my triglycerides skyrocketing to the point where I had to be put on Glucophage. Since vegan diets can be carb-bombs, I became insulin resistant and put on 20 lbs, too.

After going to a nutritionist, I eat a balanced diet. I get the bulk of my protein from lean meats, eggs, and dairy products. I've lost 35 pound, I'm off the diabetes meds, and my lipids have come down to normal.

The point of my tirade is diets are not one-size-fits-all. If a person is a vegan and they are healthy, fine and dandy. However, I can't stand for a vegan to proselytize. Many embrace their diet with religious fervor. It's their way or you are doomed!!! My vegan experiment cost me >$3500. Spare me!!

Well said.

BTW- Cows make nice belts, shoes and coats too.

They do indeed. When you meet a Vegan, notice what they have on their feet.

Honestly, I never think about what you eat.

Now that you know that I eat cow - and with great pleasure, too - what do you think of that? Ethically, morally.

[CFLarsen]

I'm not surprised this thread has raged on and on about veganism. I added a vegetarianism / veganism page (http://whatstheharm.net/vegetarianismveganism.html) to What's The Harm a while back, and it seems to spark alot of criticism. I've gotten a number of emails about it.

Most of my critics seem to somehow overlook that all but one of the cases involve a small child. They also miss the fact that the site is not called "these things are bad", it is called "what's the harm". The distinction is that you need to be aware that some things can cause harm to you, if you are not careful.

For example, if you want to go pay a tarot reader for a reading, simply for humor and ironic value, I would be the last person to stop you. Heck, I might come with you. But there's a difference between doing that and using tarot to make important life decisions, and that's where harm enters in.

Back to veganism, again I have absolutely no objections to those who choose this diet. However, if you choose such a diet for your child, and you have not done the additional homework about what this entails, you are being an idiot and you deserve to have your child taken away from you.

An infant's nutritional needs are very different from a small child's, and both of them are different from an adult. You may be well aware of what supplements you need as an adult to be healthy and vegan. But are you aware of what your infant needs? What about your toddler?

That's my only point on this matter: be vegan and enjoy it. But as soon as you are choosing veganism for someone else you need to be much more serious & responsible about the details.

Well said, but there's more to it than that: When you harm yourself, it also becomes a problem.

Just think of Breatharians.

[Professor Yaffle]

Gradually, over the generations, sure. But then, you are not following the principle. You can't bend the principle of not "exploiting" animals.

Cows as they exist today have been bred for our "exploitation" over the millennia - they are a far cry from wild cows that can manage on their own.

Are you saying that you have evidence that cows cope less well with the withdrawal of milking than any other mammal because of the way they have been bred? If you have I would be interested to see it.


But that's because the child had reached a stage where it didn't need breast-milk anymore.

What has that got to do with anything. The effect on the mother has nothing to do with the reason for withdrawal. Many women stop breastfeeding, for example, because they are going back to work and have a similar uncomfortable few days/week. I have no idea what you point was here, could you explain please?

You didn't stop giving the kid dairy products, did you?

Why is that any of your business and what has it to do with this discussion?

I don't like it when people tell me I'm a bad person for eating certain things. E.g., I don't like it when Muslims think bad of me for eating pork. What is the difference? I can't see any.

I'm sure people who agree with the death penalty don't like the implication from "anti's" that they are a bad person for thinking that. I'm sure pro choicers don't like it when pro lifers think they are bad people for their beliefs on abortion (and vice versa). Again what has you "not liking it" got to do with anything?

They do indeed. When you meet a Vegan, notice what they have on their feet.

Most vegans (and some vegetarians) reject the use of leather.

[krelnik]

Well said, but there's more to it than that: When you harm yourself, it also becomes a problem.

Just think of Breatharians.

True. But that strays into the ethical question of whether suicide/euthanasia/etc is allowable by our society. Well beyond the scope of this thread, I'm afraid.

[CFLarsen]

Are you saying that you have evidence that cows cope less well with the withdrawal of milking than any other mammal because of the way they have been bred? If you have I would be interested to see it.

What has that got to do with anything. The effect on the mother has nothing to do with the reason for withdrawal. Many women stop breastfeeding, for example, because they are going back to work and have a similar uncomfortable few days/week. I have no idea what you point was here, could you explain please?

I am saying that cows today are bred to our needs, not to their own. They are our creation, and are not "natural" animals, any more than dogs or cats. They sure have no rights of their own.

Women are a bit different than cows. :)

Why is that any of your business and what has it to do with this discussion?

It has everything to do with this discussion: The kid made the decision, not you. Its body didn't need your breastmilk anymore.

With the case mentioned in the OP, the parents made all the decisions for their kid, even those that harmed it.

I'm sure people who agree with the death penalty don't like the implication from "anti's" that they are a bad person for thinking that. I'm sure pro choicers don't like it when pro lifers think they are bad people for their beliefs on abortion (and vice versa). Again what has you "not liking it" got to do with anything?

Because it puts me lower on their scale, simply because I don't live up to their demands.

Do you like it when a Muslim thinks badly of you because you eat pork?

Most vegans (and some vegetarians) reject the use of leather.

They sure don't go hiking in the woods much, then.

[Professor Yaffle]

I am saying that cows today are bred to our needs, not to their own. They are our creation, and are not "natural" animals, any more than dogs or cats. They sure have no rights of their own.

What defines whether an animal should have any rights and is this definition anything other than your own personal arbitrary definition? Are you saying that all animals which have undergone selective breeding have no rights and we should be able to do anything we like to them? At what point in the selective breeding process does an animal lose rights?

It has everything to do with this discussion: The kid made the decision, not you. Its body didn't need your breastmilk anymore.

Now I am confused again. This point was about whether it was ok to stop milking cows and you have ignored that and changed it into a discussion about whether it is ok for parents to make decisions for their children. For your information, with my first child, it was my decision to stop breastfeeding him. He would happily have gone on much longer. Parents make decisions for their children all the time. Some parents decide not to breastfeed at all (without their child getting any say in the matter). The issue if parents making these decisions for their children is only a problem where the decision causes significant harm to the child. Then it is abuse or neglect. As has been pointed out to you, it is perfectly possible to have a healthy vegan diet as long as you pay close attention to what you are eating and do some research. If these particular parents did not do this, then these particular parents are culpable, but not becaue they chose a vegan diet, but because they chose a vegan diet without due care and attention to their child's needs.


Because it puts me lower on their scale, simply because I don't live up to their demands.

Do you like it when a Muslim thinks badly of you because you eat pork?


I don't particularly care what a muslim thinks of me for eating pork. I disagree with the premises he makes his judgement on, that's all. Do you really want to outlaw all differences in ethical codes in case someone doesn't like th idea that he is being looked down on? Or do you just want to outlaw the ones that make you looked down on by someone? Cos that would be a little hypocritical wouldn't it?

They sure don't go hiking in the woods much, then.

I'm sure plenty of them do. You can get vegan hiking boots. They are probably not as good as the best leather ones, but I'm sure they do an adequate job.

[Travis]

In case anyone missed it.

This all reminds me of when my College adopted a mandatory Vegan policy. Which meant that not only could you not buy meat/dairy products on campus but you couldn't bring any, or consume any, on campus either. Needless to say the campus legal department about had a stroke and got this rescinded before it ever took effect but not before I made my own vociferous objection. Of course doing so got me labeled as an "animal butcherer" or "creature torturer" for the rest of my enrollment there. Now, even after all that, I don't hate Vegans........ but I do everything I can, where possible, to avoid them. I just don't like being around people who think I'm some sort of horrid sadistic monster just because I eat a bacon-cheeseburger every now and then.

[CFLarsen]

What defines whether an animal should have any rights and is this definition anything other than your own personal arbitrary definition? Are you saying that all animals which have undergone selective breeding have no rights and we should be able to do anything we like to them? At what point in the selective breeding process does an animal lose rights?

I'm not saying that animal have rights.

Are you saying that (some) animals have rights?

Now I am confused again. This point was about whether it was ok to stop milking cows and you have ignored that and changed it into a discussion about whether it is ok for parents to make decisions for their children. For your information, with my first child, it was my decision to stop breastfeeding him. He would happily have gone on much longer. Parents make decisions for their children all the time. Some parents decide not to breastfeed at all (without their child getting any say in the matter). The issue if parents making these decisions for their children is only a problem where the decision causes significant harm to the child. Then it is abuse or neglect. As has been pointed out to you, it is perfectly possible to have a healthy vegan diet as long as you pay close attention to what you are eating and do some research. If these particular parents did not do this, then these particular parents are culpable, but not becaue they chose a vegan diet, but because they chose a vegan diet without due care and attention to their child's needs.

I haven't ignored it or changed it into a discussion about whether it is OK for parents to make decisions for their children. The thread is about precisely that: Should the parents be held responsible for what they did to their child?

I don't particularly care what a muslim thinks of me for eating pork. I disagree with the premises he makes his judgement on, that's all.

Do you really want to outlaw all differences in ethical codes in case someone doesn't like th idea that he is being looked down on? Or do you just want to outlaw the ones that make you looked down on by someone? Cos that would be a little hypocritical wouldn't it?

Where do I say I want to outlaw ideas I don't like?

I'm sure plenty of them do. You can get vegan hiking boots. They are probably not as good as the best leather ones, but I'm sure they do an adequate job.

Yes, you can. E.g. at PETA (http://www.peta.org/living/alt1.asp). Lots of "faux fur" stuff, and a store called "NY Artificial".

Whatever Vegans strive for, it sure isn't irony.

[Professor Yaffle]

I'm not saying that animal have rights.

Are you saying that (some) animals have rights?

So are you now saying that selectively bred animals have exactly the same rights as all other animals? If so why did you bother to contrast the selectively bred cow with with a wild animal?

Personally, I go along with Stephen Fry's view that animals does have rights, but that there are some things we don't have the right to do to them (or something along those lines).


I haven't ignored it or changed it into a discussion about whether it is OK for parents to make decisions for their children. The thread is about precisely that: Should the parents be held responsible for what they did to their child?


But that's not what that particular point was about, so you have indeed ignored it. As to the rest - of course it is ok for parents to make decisions for their children (differing amounts IMO depending on the age of the child). And of course every parent should be held responsible for what they do to their children. The point is that you seem to want to blame responsible vegan parents as well even though there are no adverse consequences for their children. You argument is tantamount to seeing a mobidly obese child and then blaming the parents for feeding them an omnivorous diet instead of blaming them for feeding them a BAD omnivorous diet.


Where do I say I want to outlaw ideas I don't like?


Ok, maybe I read you wrong then, but that was certainly the way it was starting o sound to me. You may not want to ban them, but you do seem to want to label certain beliefs as wrong because they happen to make you feel like you are being looked down upon. There are plenty of more logical reasons for disagreeing with a person's ethical code than this, and frankly it makes you look quite pathetic.


Yes, you can. E.g. at PETA (http://www.peta.org/living/alt1.asp). Lots of "faux fur" stuff, and a store called "NY Artificial".
Whatever Vegans strive for, it sure isn't irony.


You can never just admit you were wrong about the tiniest detail can you? You always have to make some smart alec quip instead. Of the few vegans I know, none of them wear fake fur and their motive for buying fake leather is certainly not that they want something that looks like real leather. They just want something that looks ok, does the job and accords with their principles.

[ponderingturtle]

"Vegan Diet" does not automatically translate into "poor diet". I wish more people would stop spreading this false meme.

The point is that Vegan Diet with out a focus on diet and proper nutrition, can certainly result in a poor diet.

[drapier]

The point is that Vegan Diet with out a focus on diet and proper nutrition, can certainly result in a poor diet.

Can't the same be said about non-vegan diets?

[ponderingturtle]

Again. What about supplements?
You sound like a Creationist-what about the gaps, what about abiogenesis? Bring up a point and stop with the insinuations.

The point is that a vegan diet is lacking, this can be compensated for with supplements, but most people do not consider pills to be a form of food, and diet is taken to mean the food you eat and liquids you drink.

If you only eat vegan food you will likely have nutritional problems, these can be compensated for with supplements, but you are now defining supplements as food.

Most people eating a proper diet don't need to supplement it because they are not getting what they need.

[ponderingturtle]

Ayup. It also destroys the idea of Veganism altogether. You simply can't abide the philosophy anyway.


Veganism is a practice not a single philosophy, so while it refutes some arguments for veganism it does not invalidate them all.

[ponderingturtle]

Are you saying that you have evidence that cows cope less well with the withdrawal of milking than any other mammal because of the way they have been bred? If you have I would be interested to see it.

They have certainly been bread to produce far more milk than a calf needs. How much a problem this would be I really don't know though.

[Almo]

I consider humans eating a vegan diet to be "unnatural." You can tell from our teeth that we evolved eating meat. To deny that seems odd to me. But, to be clear, I think we as humans do quite a few "unnatural" things, so this doesn't mean to me that noone should ever eat a vegan diet.

[ponderingturtle]

Can't the same be said about non-vegan diets?

Sure I would think that raising a child on the adkins diet would be a bad idea as well.

But most diets don't require the same ammount of focus on the diet and its supplements that veganism requires.

[CFLarsen]

So are you now saying that selectively bred animals have exactly the same rights as all other animals? If so why did you bother to contrast the selectively bred cow with with a wild animal?

I haven't changed my argument at all. Animals don't have rights, period.

Personally, I go along with Stephen Fry's view that animals does have rights, but that there are some things we don't have the right to do to them (or something along those lines).

What rights do animals have?

But that's not what that particular point was about, so you have indeed ignored it.

You are talking nonsense. How can I change it into a discussion about whether it is OK for parents to make decisions for their children, if that was the discussion all along?

As to the rest - of course it is ok for parents to make decisions for their children (differing amounts IMO depending on the age of the child). And of course every parent should be held responsible for what they do to their children. The point is that you seem to want to blame responsible vegan parents as well even though there are no adverse consequences for their children.

No, I don't.

Ok, maybe I read you wrong then, but that was certainly the way it was starting o sound to me. You may not want to ban them, but you do seem to want to label certain beliefs as wrong

No, I don't.

You can never just admit you were wrong about the tiniest detail can you?

Yes, I can: When I am.

You always have to make some smart alec quip instead.

Come on: Vegans advocating wearing fake fur and other artificial clothing? That has to be the height of irony!

Of the few vegans I know, none of them wear fake fur and their motive for buying fake leather is certainly not that they want something that looks like real leather. They just want something that looks ok, does the job and accords with their principles.

Have them take it up with PETA, then.

Veganism is a practice not a single philosophy, so while it refutes some arguments for veganism it does not invalidate them all.

Call it what you like: The center point of veganism is to avoid using animals for human consumption/use.

[Professor Yaffle]

Sorry typo in my previous post. It should have been "animals don't have rights".

[Professor Yaffle]

I haven't changed my argument at all. Animals don't have rights, period.

Then why did you bring up the difference between animals that are wild and animals that have been bred by humans?

What rights do animals have?

Typo.


You are talking nonsense. How can I change it into a discussion about whether it is OK for parents to make decisions for their children, if that was the discussion all along?


Please reread the thread of that particular comment (by following back the quotes and replies - you can even post them all together) and see if what you have just said makes any sense at all.


No, I don't.



No, I don't.


So you don't think there is anything wrong with vegan's bringing up their children as vegans, and you don't want to label vegans as wrong.

Well I'm glad about that, but now I have no idea what you have actually been getting at in your posts in this thread. Could you state your position a little more concisely so as to avoid any future misunderstandings?


Yes, I can: When I am.


So are you claiming that you haven't stated anything that was wrong in this thread? Or are you stating that you have been wrong in this thread and admitted it? If so, could you point it out for me, I seem to have missed it.

Come on: Vegans advocating wearing fake fur and other artificial clothing? That has to be the height of irony!

Fake fur I will give you (though I have never seen a vegan wearing fake fur). Why is it ironic that a vegan would wear "artificial" clothing?


Have them take it up with PETA, then.


Why should they. They don't see PETA as speaking for anyone but PETA's members. And presumably they believe there are much more important things to tackle than whether somevegans/animal rights people wear fake fur. If it isn't hurting animals and they think it looks good, where is the problem?

[Roboramma]

Yes. Complete proteins are almost only found in meat. If you simply eliminate meat from a diet, and increase other typical foods to compensate, you will miss tons of essential proteins. You have to very, very carefully plan a diet to get sufficient protein with no animal sources (vegetarians can just eat eggs, but that obviously doesn't work for vegans). Also, note you can't just hit one vegetable protein source, because it'll be short amino acids. You have to correctly plan out your diet every single day, just to hit the right mix of amino acids you get from animal sources. Sure, I'm aware of that. I don't think it means a vegan diet is necessarily less healthy than a non-vegan diet, because the option of following an adequate dietary plan is there, and I don't see any evidence that suggests that vegans don't tend to follow those plans. Vegans may tend to have healthier diets because they are aware of the risks and work hard to prevent them.
Then again, maybe not, but I don't see that either of us knows either way.

Needless to say, if you go vegan because of 'think of the animals' without proper thought, you're in for a world of pain. Agreed. I don't think that means that it's the wrong decision for some people however. If they consider consuming animal products to be sufficiently morally... unpalatable... then that's the decision they should make.
Personally, I eat all sorts of meat, but I can understand why people make sacrifices for what they consider to be right.

Yes. The average unplanned diet increases in nutrition if you include meat. The average planned diet is a stupid question, because there are obviously different qualities of plans (I eat at McDonald's every day is a plan). Okay, that makes sense.

I don't know. Moreover, I've never seen a good survey on it (and I've looked). I was hoping to find one too, but a quick google didn't help much.
I have seen vegans from both categories, and I know enough about nutrition to know the dangers of veganism. In any case, why would you choose a diet that has a good risk of leaving you with major to severe health complications with bad planning? Seems idiotic, at best.
If you jump off a cliff with a parachute and survive without injury, is it a good argument for jumping off cliffs with a parachute?
Except that this parachute is one that you can count on very well, so long as you put it on right. And personally I think I'd enjoy jumping off a cliff with a parachute, if I knew it was safe.
Personally I don't see how Vegan's reasons for choosing a vegan diet are anyone's business but their own. And while you're right that there is a risk if they don't properly plan their diets, they can plan their diets, so I don't see the problem.
I drive a bicycle rather than a car for a number of reasons, and I think there's good ones. Of course, I also think I'm at greater risk when I'm on the road than I would be in a car. It's less convenient to get from place to place, and I have to work harder to plan my day to get around. But I still consider it a valid choice that isn't anyone else's business.

The issue of putting children at risk by forcing a vegan diet on them and then not sufficently researching it is a separate one, and obviously I agree that it's not acceptable, perhaps even criminal - though I don't know that that's the case in the OP or not.

[CFLarsen]

Then why did you bring up the difference between animals that are wild and animals that have been bred by humans?

See post #67: What will Vegans do about existing cows and chickens? What will they do with the milk and eggs? Destroy them?

Typo.

Fair enough.

Please reread the thread of that particular comment (by following back the quotes and replies - you can even post them all together) and see if what you have just said makes any sense at all.

They do to me.

So you don't think there is anything wrong with vegan's bringing up their children as vegans and you don't want to label vegans as wrong.

No, that's not what I said "No, I don't" to. I don't blame responsible vegan parents if there are no adverse consequences for their children. They can pop all the pills they want, but they shouldn't claim they can sustain themselves based on an entirely vegan diet. If they do that, then they are wrong.

Well I'm glad about that, but now I have no idea what you have actually been getting at in your posts in this thread. Could you state your position a little more concisely so as to avoid any future misunderstandings?

My posts are very clear and consistent.

So are you claiming that you haven't stated anything that was wrong in this thread?

Not to my knowledge.

Is this about the child or about me being wrong?

Fake fur I will give you (though I have never seen a vegan wearing fake fur). Why is it ironic that a vegan would wear "artificial" clothing?

Fake fur isn't artificial?

Why should they. They don't see PETA as speaking for anyone but PETA's members. And presumably they believe there are much more important things to tackle than whether somevegans/animal rights people wear fake fur. If it isn't hurting animals and they think it looks good, where is the problem?

Don't you find it odd that they can't even agree on whether to wear artificial clothing or not? They agree on not wearing animal clothing, but disagree on wearing imitation animal clothing?

Who are they trying to please here? The animals, or their own conscience?

[godless dave]

Veganism is nothing more than a form of extremism if you ask me. Very few vegans I know, stick to that lifestyle purely for "health" related or preferential reason as opposed to certain people who tend to be vegetarians.

Being a vegan for health reasons would be woo. All the vegans I know are vegans for moral reasons.

[ponderingturtle]

Call it what you like: The center point of veganism is to avoid using animals for human consumption/use.

And that is an action, and how do you refute an action?

[Giraffe107]

They have certainly been bread to produce far more milk than a calf needs. How much a problem this would be I really don't know though.

Cows can develop mastitis if not milked- basically their udders get inflammed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis

This can lead to death of the animal:

Mastitis - persistent mammary gland infection, leading to high somatic cell counts and loss of production.
Mastitis is recognized by a reddening and swelling of the infected quarter of the udder and the presence of whitish clots in the milk or even pus in serious cases. The cow may run a high temperature and serious untreated cases can be fatal. Antibiotics and anti-inflammatory treatments may be indicated. Congestion and swelling may hinder evacuation of the infection. The speed of the cow's immune system response is important in serious cases. The infection stimulates white blood cell concentration in the infected quarter. Sometimes infectious pathogens may not be entirely eliminated and set up a chronic infection. This leads to semi-permanent high white cell counts which mean the milk from such cows is unmarketable. Treatment is impossible although injection of long-acting antibiotics at drying off has some success.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cows

So if you wanted to stop milking cows you would be best off culling them.

[Jeff Corey]

I haven't changed my argument at all. Animals don't have rights, period...

I. Animals do not have rights.
2. All humans are animals.
3. Ergo,...oops.

[CFLarsen]

And that is an action, and how do you refute an action?

It's a principle they try to live up to.

I. Animals do not have rights.
2. All humans are animals.
3. Ergo,...oops.

Oh, hush, you.....animal!

[Wudang]

Some UK vegans I know don't touch dairy because the dairy industry produces too many calves which helps drive the veal industry which they disapprove of - especially in the UK where calves are often shipped to France for "crating" - or were pre BSE.

Also one nutrient I believe you can't get from non-animal sources is long-chain omega-3 as opposed to short-chain which the body uses differently according to the last thing I read in the area a while back. Corrections welcomed.

[Professor Yaffle]

Cows can develop mastitis if not milked- basically their udders get inflammed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis

This can lead to death of the animal:

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cows

So if you wanted to stop milking cows you would be best off culling them.

Would lactation inhibiting medications (or gradual tapering of milking) not also be a viable alternative?

[drapier]

Would lactation inhibiting medications (or gradual tapering of milking) not also be a viable alternative?

Wow. Vegans do have a rough time. First it's the supplements, now they have to worry about what to do with all the unemployed dairy cows.

(It's making me regret my decision not to shop at Walmart. What am I going to do with all those unemployed Walmart employees?)

[Madalch]

Wow. Vegans do have a rough time. First it's the supplements, now they have to worry about what to do with all the unemployed dairy cows.

(It's making me regret my decision not to shop at Walmart. What am I going to do with all those unemployed Walmart employees?)
Just like the dairy cows- we can make them find new jobs, or we can turn them into veal.

[luchog]

Yes. Complete proteins are almost only found in meat. If you simply eliminate meat from a diet, and increase other typical foods to compensate, you will miss tons of essential proteins.

False. Competely, totally, and in all other ways, false.

First, there is no such thing as an essential protein. Proteins are long chains of amino acids. You're confusing proteins two. The human body does not use proteins, it uses amino acids. All proteins consumed are broken down into their constituent amino acids, which are then re-assembled into specific types of proteins by the body. The majority of the amino acids needed to sustain normal human functioning are synthesized by the body from other amino acids. There are only nine amino acids which cannot be synthesized by the human body: phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, isoleucine, methionine, histidine, leucine, and lysine. These are known as "essential" amino acids, because they must all be present in sufficient quantity in one's diet in order to ensure normal functioning. A tenth amino acid, arginine, is moderately necessary for children, because it is not as readily synthesized. However, it is widely available from nearly all vegetable sources, and therefore not a critical concern. Any diet that provides adequate levels of other amino acids will invariably provide adequate levels of arginine.

All of these amino acids are easily availble from purely vegetable sources.

Soybeans contain all nine essential amino acids, in a balance almost identical to that of animal sources. Furthermore, it has a higher concentration and a higher rate of bioavailability of said amino acids, than animal sources. As a source of dietary protein, it is superior to, or at worst equal to, any animal source. It just doesn't taste as good. :)

If for some reason soy products are not an option (due to allergies, or whatever), there are several other options which contain all nine essential amino acids, such as amaranth, buckwheat, and quinoa. These all contain lower levels of protein than soy or animal sources, but not prohibitively so.

True grains are very high in all essential amino acids, except lysine. Legumes are very high in lysine, and a number of other essential amino acids. Combining grains and legumes gives a complete balance of essential amino acids.

Of course, all of these sources contain high levels of non-essential amino acids as well.

The average adult human body requires between 40 and 60 grams of protein per day (based on a the RDA standard of 0.8g/kg of body weight), depending on activity levels and general health. Using a median of 50, it's extremely easy to obtain sufficient protein from vegetable sources. To obtain this much protein, one would need approximately 1.25 cups of soy; 2 cups of amaranth, buckwheat, or quinoa; or 1.5 cups each of an average legume or nut, and an average grain, combined. This would, by itself, give the total amount of necessary amino acids per day. This is completely ignoring all the amino acids available from other foods consumed; so it's not actually necessary, to eat this much of any of those. The average American diet provides 2 to 3 times more protein than is necessary.

All foods contain some balance of amino acids. If you are eating a varied and balanced diet, protein is not a problem for a vegan. Claiming that it is, is pure ignorance.

Vitamin D should not be a problem. The human body can synthesize all the vitamin D it needs with adequate exposure to sunlight. Without it, sufficient vitamin D can be obtained from fungus. One ounce of commonly available mushrooms contains roughly double the necessary daily amount of vitamin D.

The only nutrient that is difficult to obtain on a purely vegan diet is vitamin B12. However, this is not impossible, as was pointed out earlier, as it is readily available from a commonly available strain of yeast, or in a "pure" form extracted from said yeast.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by Giraffe107 http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3766392#post3766392)
Cows can develop mastitis if not milked- basically their udders get inflammed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis)

This can lead to death of the animal:

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cows)

So if you wanted to stop milking cows you would be best off culling them.

Would lactation inhibiting medications (or gradual tapering of milking) not also be a viable alternative?
Would lactation inhibiting medications (or gradual tapering of milking) not also be a viable alternative?As soon as you asked the question, the first thing I thought of was "mastitis" (dairy farming family on my mother's side) caused by lack of milking. I also "knew" that that was because of breeding over the years.

But one thing struck me from your question and the wiki entry - lactation begins ONLY if the heifer calves. Indeed, the cow has to keep calving to trigger lactation, otherwise it "dries" up. From what I recall and just read, you'd need to milk the cow as usual until it dried up, after that, no problem about mastitis.

So one possible "solution" to the "problem" is to stop taking the cow to the bull - no more calves, no more lactation.

Of course if that was applied universally that breed of cow would die out
Quite a number of non-intesively farmed/milked breeds would still exist in the world, so you could still find milk products (perhaps only as a luxury item, though).

But the short answer to your question is, I think, that yes, if the cow was not calving any more it will stop lactating as a natural course of events.

[Professor Yaffle]

I am completely ignorant of this area, so please answer some very simple questions for me. Are you saying that even if you keep milking a cow its milk will eventually dry up, and in order to keep milking a cow you have to let it produce another calf? What sort of timescale are we talking about here? I know humans can produce milk for several years at least as long as they are still feeding.

[EHocking]

Would lactation inhibiting medications (or gradual tapering of milking) not also be a viable alternative?

I am completely ignorant of this area, so please answer some very simple questions for me. Are you saying that even if you keep milking a cow its milk will eventually dry up, and in order to keep milking a cow you have to let it produce another calf? Apparently. Just as any other mammal.What sort of timescale are we talking about here? I know humans can produce milk for several years at least as long as they are still feeding.Wiki and other sites indicate 9-14 months, and from personal experience (well my farmer uncle''s, anyway), they will dry up within a few years even if milked when they get beyond calving age (think bovine menopause).

[Wudang]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/food_matters/veal.shtml

I recall chef Sophie Grigson regretting her avoiding veal as it is a natural by-product of the dairy industry because calves not made into veal in the UK were shipped to France to be crated http://www.ahan.org/farmanimals.html. Though this is apparently dying out now.

I also found that recently a veg has been produced that can produce long-chain omega3 so ....

[mumblethrax]

I also found that recently a veg has been produced that can produce long-chain omega3 so ....
I take an omega-3 DHA supplement derived from algae. Many commercial foods that vegans are likely to consume (soy milk, for example) are fortified these days, as well.

[devnull]

meat tastes good. we are omnivores.

What's the problem again?

[drapier]

meat tastes good. we are omnivores.

What's the problem again?

Someone earlier in the thread imagined that vegans were calling him names or something, and he took offense.

[devnull]

ahhh, attack of "imaginary morality". Got it.

[Wudang]

I take an omega-3 DHA supplement derived from algae. Many commercial foods that vegans are likely to consume (soy milk, for example) are fortified these days, as well.

Yeah but long-chain or short-chain? A lot of food-like substances say enriched with omega3 but not what kind.

[ponderingturtle]

I am completely ignorant of this area, so please answer some very simple questions for me. Are you saying that even if you keep milking a cow its milk will eventually dry up, and in order to keep milking a cow you have to let it produce another calf? What sort of timescale are we talking about here? I know humans can produce milk for several years at least as long as they are still feeding.

The other issue could be volume reduction, if the cow is not producing enough milk it will not be earning its keep.

[mumblethrax]

Yeah but long-chain or short-chain? A lot of food-like substances say enriched with omega3 but not what kind.
Docosahexaenoic acid. It's a long-chain omega-3 fatty acid.

It can be synthesized from ALA (short-chain), but that process is apparently inefficient, as vegans have been found to have low stores of DHA. So I take a supplement.

Algae is the ultimate source of the high levels of long-chain fatty acids in fish, too.

[hecaterin]

I'm sure plenty of them do. You can get vegan hiking boots. They are probably not as good as the best leather ones, but I'm sure they do an adequate job.Yep. They're made of oil. No blood for oil shoes!! :D

I seriously have no problem with anyone choosing to be a vegan, a vegetarian, a raw foodist, an atkins dieter, a paleolithic dieter, or anything else. De gustibus non es disputandum. I even apply that to ethical diet choices - we live in a complex world, and we make our own decisions on how to apply our principles. Personally, I choose to irrationally eschew the handy protein that's available from insects and most kinds of offal; and I refuse ethically to buy fruit & veg out of season when it's shipped in from overseas.

Where I draw the line is when people start to:
a) preach about their moral superiority
b) endanger other people
c) bandy about unscientific woo about the health superiority of their choice

In my experience, nearly all vegans do a and c, and I've met some who do all of a, b and c. But I have also met about two that didn't.

[tek]

Wasn't this a plot point on Lost?

Glad I'm not the only one whose first thought was this.

I was going to contribute something on topic, but it seems there's little to no argument. Malnutritioned kids = bad. Vegan diet with the occasional supplement = OK!

[gambling_cruiser]

Following this discussion I get the feeling vegans are very sensible beings just like muslims who don't like cartoons!
And vegans seem to have religious certainty as well.
And moral superiority.

[Blue Bubble]

Following this discussion I get the feeling vegans are very sensible beings just like muslims who don't like cartoons!
And vegans seem to have religious certainty as well.
And moral superiority.

Gambling_Cruiser, I think you meant "sensitive" rather than "sensible" (a common and understandable mistake by German speakers). Since it really changes the meaning of your post, I thought I'd just point that out.

[gambling_cruiser]

Blue Bubble that's right!
Thx

[Rocko]

Where I draw the line is when people start to:
a) preach about their moral superiority

IME that's complete nonsense. If anything it's the other way round - there's a good subset of the population who - once theye find out that person A is a vegan - just can't wait to start making fun of him for it.

Most vegans I know just get on with it; the only time they talk about it is when they're asked. Frequently whilst some moron waves a piece of steak in their face as a "joke".

[Vorticity]

IME that's complete nonsense. If anything it's the other way round - there's a good subset of the population who - once theye find out that person A is a vegan - just can't wait to start making fun of him for it.

Most vegans I know just get on with it; the only time they talk about it is when they're asked. Frequently whilst some moron waves a piece of steak in their face as a "joke".

I've got to agree with you here. This idea that veg types march around constantly screaming "CHRIST KILLER!!!11!" at everyone eating a Slim Jim has become such a pervasive meme that no one really questions it anymore.

My experience has been the exact opposite.

I've been a vegan for several years now. Before that, when I still ate meat, my then (and current) girlfriend was already a vegetarian, so we hung out with a lot of vegan/vegetarian types. Even though they KNEW I ate meat, not one of them ever brought it up or tried to argue at me. Furthermore, I've never seen anyone argue against eating meat anywhere, unless they were first asked about it by someone else.

What I have noticed, repeatedly, are meat eaters who (especially on the internet) like to say things like "Whenever I see one of these vegetarians, I love to go and sit next to them with a big bloody steak, and wave it in front of them. You should see the look on their face!" Now, the funny thing about this is that were someone to do this to me, the a