Extraterrestrial/extradimensiol beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt

[polomontana]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.

You can come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence without ABSOLUTE proof.

We do it everyday in courtrooms. They come to conclusions based on the reason of 12 individuals. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt, but beyond a reasonable doubt.

We do this in fields like Theoretical Physics with things like extra dimensions and parallel universes which most physicist accept without one picture of one of these parallel universes.

We look for the elusive "natural explanation" to these things for example weather balloons or flares. If you can't find a "natural explanation" then the case remains open and unknown.

I can say this, you can look until your blue in the face for a natural explanation that fit's your pre-existing belief system and you will not find one outside of extraterrestrial/extradimensional spacecraft and beings.

These things exist beyond any reasonable doubt.

Case after case remains "open" as some people search for a natural explanation that doesn't exist in the context of their pre-existing belief.

Extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings would be a natural explanation in the context of extra dimensions or beings who are years ahead of us in evolution and technology.

You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step towards Enlightenment.

It's like Plato and the Allegory of the cave. People in the cave can't think beyond their perception and because of decoherence they think they are all that there is.

I will leave you with a few quotes from Einstein.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."

"When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge."

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity."

http://www.quotesandsayings.com/qeinstein.htm

[Sefarst]

Joke thread?:confused:

[NorfolkAtheist]

You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step towards Enlightenment.
[/url]

Does anyone else reflexively cringe when they hear/see the word "enlightenment"? Polomontana even treats it as a proper noun! Yuck.

[wahrheit]

I will leave you with a few quotes from Einstein.


No, thanks. My BS meter's needle explodes when someone feeds it with Einstein quotes.

[Blackwell]

Must be using a definition of the word "reasonable" that I haven't heard before.

[Babbylonian]

Alluding to evidence is not the same as presenting evidence, and eyewitness accounts are not "direct" evidence considering how easily a) senses and memories can be fooled and b) people can lie.

[godless dave]

Presidents, huh?

If you're referring to Jimmy Carter, someone (and it wasn't Carter) has told you a fairy tale.

[Locknar]

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.Obviously you don't know what "direct evidence" is.


Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.
Just because I draw a picture of my friend Harvey, a giant invisible rabbit, does not mean he's real....

[JoeTheJuggler]

By your definition of "beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence," is there any wacky claim that you don't believe with that same level of confidence?

Bigfoot? Loch Ness? Reincarnation? Astral Travel? Healing crystals? Homeopathy? Astrology?

If not, why not? How can you possibly draw a line to separate a "reasonable" from an "unreasonable" claim?

[Tricky]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.
I think the doubts are quite reasonable. It is the evidence which is not.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.
LOL. You say "Ufology" as if it were actually a science. Do you know how science works?

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.

This is not Direct Evidence. This is known as anecdotal evidence, and it is pretty much inadmissible as scientific evidence, especially when the anecdotes cannot be verified. And as far as I know, no president has claimed to see extraterrestrials. I think one said he saw a UFO. A UFO is, by definition, unidentified. To call it extraterrestrial is to go completely outside what the term means, outside of the evidence and even outside of the anecdote. Of course, I expect that "Ufologists" make this leap all the time. They can probably do it in their sleep (which might explain a lot of where they get their ideas.)

Direct evidence would be something on the order of an actual extraterrestrial or a vehicle which is clearly capable of interstellar travel.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.
People like van Danniken have been trying to make this into something for years, yet not one single one of their stories has ever been shown to be true. There's a good reason for that.

This is not circumstantial evidence. This is called "data-fitting". It is like saying that finding a giant prehistoric turtle skeleton is "evidence" that the creation myth about the world riding on the back of a giant turtle is true.

You can come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence without ABSOLUTE proof.
You may be a reasonable person in most respects, and you may have reached this conclusion, yet that does not mean that the conclusion is reasonable. Perfectly normal processes can explain virtually all UFO sightings, and those that they can't simply remain unexplained. It doesn't mean that they are extraterrestrial. The fact that you cannot think of any other explanation doesn't make it correct. Especially if you have already prejudiced yourself in favor of this particular explanation. Why do you think nobody believed in extraterrestrials before mankind began to understand space? Was there no evidence then, or were there simply no science fictions books to prejudice them to that way of thinking?

We do it everyday in courtrooms. They come to conclusions based on the reason of 12 individuals. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt, but beyond a reasonable doubt.
And courtrooms are not science. The law can decide on all sorts of things as correct, as they did only a little over a hundred and fifty years ago that slavery should be legal.

I strongly advise that you investigate the difference between legal evidence and scientific evidence. They are only distantly related.

We do this in fields like Theoretical Physics with things like extra dimensions and parallel universes which most physicist accept without one picture of one of these parallel universes.
Really? Most physicists accept the existence of parallel universes? I think you'd better check your sources on this. What is your background in physics? I admit that I have only taken freshman and sophomore college courses in it, so I hardly call myself an expert, but I work with a lot of physicists, and I find them to be quite skeptical of other dimensions.

We look for the elusive "natural explanation" to these things for example weather balloons or flares. If you can't find a "natural explanation" then the case remains open and unknown.
Which is exactly how it should be. Jumping to conclusions because you haven't yet figured something out is the worst possible thing you can do. Note that the overwhelming majority of multi-witness UFOs have been satisfactorily explained by natural means. Not one single one has ever produced strong evidence for having been of extraterrestrial origin. Oh, lots of TV shows have been made about them, but that's not the sort of evidence that science looks for. Those shows exist to make money for their producers.

I can say this, you can look until your blue in the face for a natural explanation that fit's your pre-existing belief system and you will not find one outside of extraterrestrial/extradimensional spacecraft and beings.
And I tell you that you are completely wrong. Most have been explained naturally, including Roswell (http://www.csicop.org/si/9707/roswell.html).


These things exist beyond any reasonable doubt.
You may repeat it as often as you like without adding to its veracity in any way. I have a reasonable doubt. You can only remove that doubt with solid evidence. Got any? No, not anecdotes, not data fitting and not legal wrangling. Scientific evidence.

Case after case remains "open" as some people search for a natural explanation that doesn't exist in the context of their pre-existing belief.
Most cases "remain open" because there is no way of verifying the teller's story. Remember, Polo, people are predisposed to see what they already believe in. This is why Christians find images of Jesus in their grilled-cheese sandwiches and not Mohammad.


Extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings would be a natural explanation in the context of extra dimensions or beings who are years ahead of us in evolution and technology.
If they are natural, then there should be "natural" evidence of them. The fact that there is no such evidence weighs heavily against them as "natural explanations". They can more correctly be called "data fitting".

I am not saying these things are possible. I even believe that it is likely that there is life on other planets. What I don't (yet) believe is that we have sufficient evidence to demonstrate any of this. If you have any, I suggest you present it. Maybe you will convince me.



You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step toward Enlightenment.
If you start thinking outside of reality, (which, according to physicists, has four dimensions) then there is no reason to believe that anything you think is real. Sure, you can get ideas on how our model of reality is wrong, but you must be able to test them or they will forever dwell in the realm of unsubstantiated speculation. Einstein knew this. That's why he went out and got evidence for his theories. (And it wasn't anecdotal.)

Instead of quote-mining Einstein from highly biased sites, maybe you should study his work.

I don't say this to anger you, but to show you how science and skepticism work. I think you could learn a lot here and I hope you stay around.

By the way. Let me point you to a short story by David Brin (http://www.davidbrin.com/thoseeyes1.html), one of my favorite Science Fiction writers. I think you may find it entertaining.

[paximperium]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more. This is not really direct evidence. Many accounts are accounts of seeing UFOs and not alien "encounters" are unreliable, contradictory or explainable. PS: Which president are you talking about? Carter saw a UFO and does not believe it be alien.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence. This is less than circumstantial, this is purely conjecture.

You can come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence without ABSOLUTE proof. Yeah...and?

We do it everyday in courtrooms. They come to conclusions based on the reason of 12 individuals. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt, but beyond a reasonable doubt. Legal conclusion is based on evidence available and presented. Juries make a decision based on evidence of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, Aliens in UFO's have many reasonable doubts. Scientific evidence is also different from legal evidence. Anecdotal eyewitness testimony is the weakest form of evidence and has been shown to be very unreliable.

We do this in fields like Theoretical Physics with things like extra dimensions and parallel universes which most physicist accept without one picture of one of these parallel universes. Theoretical physics is mathematical proof and nothing more. It is a model that still needs evidence to be validated hence the multi-bilion dollar LHC at CERN or space telescopes.

We look for the elusive "natural explanation" to these things for example weather balloons or flares. If you can't find a "natural explanation" then the case remains open and unknown. Yes it is remains unknown...so?

I can say this, you can look until your blue in the face for a natural explanation that fit's your pre-existing belief system and you will not find one outside of extraterrestrial/extradimensional spacecraft and beings. WRONG. No explanation does to automatically means aliens. Maybe it was pixies or unicorns. Maybe it was time travelers or Titans?

These things exist beyond any reasonable doubt. Beware of DOGMA

Case after case remains "open" as some people search for a natural explanation that doesn't exist in the context of their pre-existing belief. So?

Extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings would be a natural explanation in the context of extra dimensions or beings who are years ahead of us in evolution and technology. Non-Sequitur. You don't get from, "We don't know" to "Super powerful aliens who transcend time and space" as an explanation.

You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step towards Enlightenment. Special Pleading.

It's like Plato and the Allegory of the cave. People in the cave can't think beyond their perception and because of decoherence they think they are all that there is. So?

I will leave you with a few quotes from Einstein. Argument from Authority, quote mining and blatant misuse of quotes out of context


Bold are my comments
This post was edited after the legal definition of direct evidence was presented.

[sphenisc]

Direct Evidence

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d050.htm

[polomontana]

First off there's evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that these things exist. There is no natural explanation and the only reasonable explanation to these things is extraterrestrial or extradimensional beings.

Again, you have to either leave these cases open or come to a reasonable conclusion based on the totality of the evidence.

We have over 700 cases investigated by our own government that doesn't have a natural explanation.

This is just a small part of the evidence.

Also, Ronald Reagan saw a U.F.O.

One night in 1974, from a Cessna Citation aircraft, one of America's most famous citizens saw a UFO.

There were four persons aboard the plane: pilot Bill Paynter, two security guards, and the governor of California, Ronald Reagan. As the airplane approached Bakersfield, California, the passengers called Paynter's attention to a strange object to their rear. "It appeared to be several hundred yards away," Paynter recalled. "It was a fairly steady light until it began to accelerate. Then it appeared to elongate. Then the light took off. It went up at a 45-degree angle-at a high rate of speed. Everyone on the plane was surprised. . . . The UFO went from a normal cruise speed to a fantastic speed instantly. If you give an airplane power, it will accelerate-but not like a hot rod, and that's what this was like."

A week later Reagan recounted the sighting to Norman C. Miller, then Washington bureau chief for the Wall Street Journal. Reagan told Miller, "We followed it for several minutes. It was a bright white light. We followed it to Bakersfield, and all of a sudden to our utter amazement it went straight up into the heavens." When Miller expressed some doubt, a "look of horror came over [Reagan]. It suddenly dawned on him . . . that he was talking to a reporter." Immediately afterward, according to Miller, Reagan "clammed up."

Reagan has not discussed the incident publicly since.*

http://science.howstuffworks.com/ronald-reagan-ufo.htm

Here's some of the cases from Project Blue Book that's still open.

Witness: ex-AAF B-17 gunner (19 missions) N.E. Schroeder. One thin, bright ellipse, like polished metal, hovered for 5-8 seconds, dropped down 3,000' in 3 seconds, hovered again and faded out after a total of 20 seconds in view.

Witness: mechanical engineer L.H. Hormer. One intensely white elliptical light changed to yellow, then orange, then pink, four or five times while flying straight and level for 5 minutes.

Witness: P.L. Percharde, electrical engineer and assistant manager of Moeller Shipwrecker Co., of Okinawa. A line of blue lights, underneath. a blue circle with a black center. Flew over ship and climbed, illuminating and agitating the clouds.

Witnesses: USAF Maj. W.J. Davis, Capt. R.D. Sauers, flying a C-47 transport plane. One dark blue oblong object paced the C-47, veered away, then crossed in front of it. Five minute sighting.

Witnesses: 1st Officer H.G. Gardner, engineer J.V.D. Whitisy, flying Royal Dutch Airlines DC-4 (PH-DBZ). Three or four dark, lens-shaped objects veered north and changed position in formation during the 10 minute sighting.

Witness: Lelah Stoker. One white round-topped disc, with a humanoid suspended beneath it, skimmed over the water, landed, and an occupant in a green suit walked around. It then took off very, very fast. Sighting lasted 30 minutes.

11 unnamed civilian man. Watched for 1 hour while an undescribed object flew counterclockwise circles.

Witnesses: A. C. Urie and his two sons. A sky blue flying saucer slides fast at the bottom of the canyon where the witnesses were fishing. It follows the contours of the ground and its description is that of a structured machine which cannot be of terrestrial origin.

Witnesses: Assistant Base Operations Officer Capt. William Rhyerd, ex-AAF B-29 pilot Ward Stewart. Watched for unknown length of time while two round, shiny, white objects with estimated 15-25 foot diameters, flew 3-4 times the apparent speed of a P-80, also in sight. One object flew straight and level, the other weaved from side-to-side like an escort fighter.

Witness: USAF pilot Capt. Paul Storey, on ground. one flat white, elliptical object with a matte top circled while oscillating to the right and left, and then sped away.

Witnesses: Capt. Sames, acting chief of the Aircraft Branch, Eglin AFB, and Mrs. Sames. They watched for 25 minutes while a cigar-shaped object as long as two Pullman cars and having seven lighted square windows and throwing sparks, descended and then climbed with a bouncing motion at an estimated 400 m.p.h.

Witnesses: guards of the 2nd Armored Division. While awaiting the start of a flare firing, they watched, for an hour, while eight large, green, red and white flare-like objects flew in generally straight lines.

Witnesses: Army officers Maj. Day, Maj. Olhausen, Capt. Vaughn. Two oblong white discs, flying at an estimated 200-250 m.p.h., made a shallow turn during the 30-50 second observation.

Witness: C. G. Green. Two shiny, disc-like objects rotated around each other and banked. Then one shot upwards with a grey trail and rejoined the other. The sighting lasted 5 minutes.

http://www.ufologie.net/indexe.htm

I can go on and on.

The thing that doesn't exist is the elusive natural explanation in the context of ones pre-existing belief system for example flares and weather balloons.

[polomontana]

We have 62 kids in Zimbabwe who saw a U.F.O. and beings from the craft. This incident was investigated by Harvard Professor John Mack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbn0ChGHdZg&eurl=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread274031/pg1

Britain just released U.F.O. Files

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmzmFzroqUA&feature=related

Travis Walton case

http://www.travis-walton.com/witness.html

I can go on and on.

There's both direct and circumstantial evidence that these things exist beyond a "natural explanation."

Trace Evidence
http://ufophysical.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

U.F.O.'s in History
http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html

There's evidence that supports the existence of extraterrestrial and extradimensional beings.

There is no natural explanation to these things in the context of a flare or weather balloon.

These things can be explained through science in the context of extra dimensions and evolution.

[polomontana]

Even more evidence.

The following presents a statistical analysis of data found in 3,189 reports involving observations of anomalous phenomena or objects on or near the ground resulting in physical effects generated by the unknown objects observed. These events took place in 91 countries between 1490 and 2006. There are hundreds of additional reports of possible trace sites which do not involve the observation of a UFO. All but the most significant of these events have been removed from the primary files and located in a secondary catalog.The analysis permits certain regularities of these phenomena to be brought out. The data indicates there is a certain type of phenomenon which shows stable statistical properties.

Many of these events involve multiple witnesses, observing unknown objects under good seeing conditions, at close range, detailed objects visible for extended periods of time, resting on or near the ground with known reference points providing a certain connection between the observed object and the resulting physical traces. Small humanoids have been seen in a substantial number of cases meeting the high strangeness standards.

http://ufophysical.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=26

We have evidence beyond any reasonable doubt and beyond any conventional "natural explanation."

Skeptics have to have more than their opinion to refute all of the evidence.

[Babylon Sister]

These things can be explained through science in the context of extra dimensions and evolution.


They can? Then please do so.

And before you start, I want you to know that I'm talking about science, not the the empty "evidence" you've posted above. Repeating your anecdotes is not science not matter how many times you repeat them.

[-Fran-]

Well, at least there's a change from the massive block texts of woo to a sort of make a new paragraph for every sentence text...

[Hokulele]

Skeptics have to have more than their opinion to refute all of the evidence.


Aren't all of your witness accounts nothing more than their opinions? :confused:

[polomontana]

They can? Then please do so.

And before you start, I want you to know that I'm talking about science, not the the empty "evidence" you've posted above. Repeating your anecdotes is not science not matter how many times you repeat them.

The whole field of Theoretical Physics is about reaching a reasonable conclusion.

Technology always lags behind science so we can't test these things.

We are still testing aspects of General Relativity like frame dragging and gravitational waves.

Should we have waited to accept relativity until we were able to test it? That makes no sense.

Science always reaches a reasonable conclusion absent of ABSOLUTE proof because technology has to catch up to science.

So you have things like:

Dark Matter/Dark Energy
Virtual Particles
Extra Dimensions
Hawking Radiation
Multiverse
Inflation Theory
M-Theory
Loop Quantum Gravity and more

It will be years before we can test some of these things and Physicist have to come to a reasonable conclusion most time with no objective evidence.

You will always have people who can't think beyond a textbook.

They feel they know the sum of all reality and we only know what 4% of the universe is made of.

These beings could be extradimensional and some of them even organic.

That's because we will see extra dimensional things from the context of our 3 dimensional perception.

So a being or object from a higher dimension could be seen as a paranormal event or a U.F.O.

We extend into a fourth dimension of space just like a 2 dimensional being will extend into a 3rd dimension but they couldn't fully grasp it.

This could explain some mystical experiences and near-death experiences. If you are seeing a higher dimensional universe it couldn't be described in 3 dimensional terms.

Check out the books Flatland by Edwin A. Abbott

also

Extra-Dimensional Universe: Where The Paranormal Becomes The Normal by John R. Violette

In context of evolution is that these beings could be years ahead of us in evolution and technology.

Scientist are starting to discover that life can evolve under conditions outside of earth. This is why we are on Mars.

National Geographic put together something very interesting along these lines.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/photogalleries/aliens/photo3.html

I'm glad people are starting to think outside of our reality because our perception of reality is so limited.

I'm glad Einstein imagined how things would look if he were to ride his motorbike next to a light beam.

This was the seeds of Relativity.

If we don't think outside of our reality then we would be stuck in the stone age.

Here's an interesting BBC documentary on Parallel Universes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vpEyE6rug

[Jeff Corey]

...We have over 700 cases investigated by our own government that doesn't have a natural explanation...I can go on and on...
And still be wrong.
But the aluminium hat might be a good idea.

[Ladewig]

Polomontana, why do you think there has been so little acceptance of these theories in the scientific world? I am not trying to use this question as evidence against the ET theories. I am just curious why the vast majority of scientists, government agencies, and popular science journals all reject the theory that you claim is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Also, do you accept that the validity of these stories leads not only to faster-than-light travel for living beings, but also inertial dampeners that prevent occupants from feeling any g-forces when they make right-angled turns at mach speeds? I personally consider the second invention even more awe-inspiring than the first.

Lastly, do you consider the hundreds of sitings of angels in the past two millennia (including accounts from priests, lay people and children) to be evidence of God's special messengers visiting Earth, evidence of the ET's, or evidence that sometimes people are mistaken and at other times people make stuff up.

. . . . . . .
ETA: would you please specify precisely which cave paintings support your theory?

[polomontana]

Polomontana, why do you think there has been so little acceptance of these theories in the scientific world? I am not trying to use this question as evidence against the ET theories. I am just curious why the vast majority of scientists, government agencies, and popular science journals all reject the theory that you claim is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Also, do you accept that the validity of these stories leads not only to faster-than-light travel for living beings, but also inertial dampeners that prevent occupants from feeling any g-forces when they make right-angled turns at mach speeds? I personally consider the second invention even more awe-inspiring than the first.

Lastly, do you consider the hundreds of sitings of angels in the past two millennia (including accounts from priests, lay people and children) to be evidence of God's special messengers visiting Earth, evidence of the ET's, or evidence that sometimes people are mistaken and at other times people make stuff up.

. . . . . . .
ETA: would you please specify precisely which cave paintings support your theory?

Good questions Ladewig,

First,

I think some people within the "mainstream" do not accept these things because of a pre-existing belief system. Scientist are not immune to belief.

These things are not like Hawking Radiation or Virtual Particles. They will have to answer questions that challenge their worldview wether it's secular or religious in nature.

Like what about life after death and did these beings have anything to do with why we are here. Some people are settled in their belief so extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings are hard to accept.

Secondly,

I thought about their travel somewhat and I think these questions need to be studied more because they could also help with our energy sources and our modes of travel.

I think we could be seeing extradimensial beings who can easily traverse are timeline. So they can move in ways that would be very foreign to us.

Extraterrestrial beings could be warping space. This would mean they are traveling through warped passages and they are being pushed by space at speeds up to and faster than light. I think this is why some seem to be bouncing around from place to place.

Maybe next time there's a sighting we could dispatch a plane that will look for trace evidence of the energy they would be using to warp space.

I think gravity is determined by the geometry of space-time and if you can warp space to a geometry where the gravitons mass is changed, then travel through these warped passages might become easier.

These are hypotheticals but these questions need to be explored more.

Lastly,

I do believe that there's a connection between the Bible and Ufology.

I think the ancients were trying to describe future technology in the language of the day.

So you would get Chariots of Fire ot beasts with wheels.

I think some of these messengers were connected to higher dimensions and U.F.O.'s.

A good place to check out is Bible-UFO Connection.
http://www.bibleufo.com/

Check out:
http://www.ufoartwork.com/

[Hokulele]

Lastly,

I do believe that there's a connection between the Bible and Ufology.

I think the ancients were trying to describe future technology in the language of the day.

So you would get Chariots of Fire ot beasts with wheels.

I think some of these messengers were connected to higher dimensions and U.F.O.'s.

A good place to check out is Bible-UFO Connection.
http://www.bibleufo.com/

Check out:
http://www.ufoartwork.com/


But, this is all just opinion.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Thinking you see funny lights in the sky does not equal proof that they are spaceships piloted by little green folks from Tralfamadore.

[-Fran-]

I do believe that there's a connection between the Bible and Ufology.


Yes! They are both nonsense!

Thinking you see funny lights in the sky does not equal proof that they are spaceships piloted by little green folks from Tralfamadore.

Of course not, they're from Grnox!!

[Patricio Elicer]

First off there's evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that these things exist.


The kind of evidence that make UFO exist only in people's minds.

[EHLO]

Hi Polomontana, I'd like to know how you would distinguish between these two statements:

1. "People experience stuff that they don't understand and after that experience there is insufficient physical evidence to make any objective conclusions about the nature of that experience"

2. "People see hyper-dimensional alien space craft"

The things you listed earlier - Dark matter, virtual particles etc, like all scientific theories are attempts to explain some aspect of objectively observable phenomena and, like all scientific theories before them, will stand or fall based on their ability to do so.

The only objective phenomena that UFOlogy presents is this: "Many people *believe* that they have seen alien spacecraft, and sometimes *believe* they have physical evidence". There are many valid theories as to why people form such subjective beliefs, and these warrant investigation, but the theory that "They really did see alien spacecraft" is pretty low on the list of options that is likely to enhance our understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

[godless dave]

The whole field of Theoretical Physics is about reaching a reasonable conclusion.

Technology always lags behind science so we can't test these things.

We are still testing aspects of General Relativity like frame dragging and gravitational waves.

Should we have waited to accept relativity until we were able to test it?

Yes. And that's what scientists did.


Science always reaches a reasonable conclusion absent of ABSOLUTE proof because technology has to catch up to science.

So you have things like:

Dark Matter/Dark Energy
Virtual Particles
Extra Dimensions
Hawking Radiation
Multiverse
Inflation Theory
M-Theory
Loop Quantum Gravity and more

None of which are currently accepted by science. They are being investigated, but none of them has enough empirical evidence to be accepted as existing.


It will be years before we can test some of these things and Physicist have to come to a reasonable conclusion most time with no objective evidence.


Physicists never do that.


You will always have people who can't think beyond a textbook.


Yes, but they have to think.


They feel they know the sum of all reality and we only know what 4% of the universe is made of.

No scientist claims to know the sum of all reality.



Here's an interesting BBC documentary on Parallel Universes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vpEyE6rug

Notice how it says nothing about travel between universes being possible, let alone observed.

[JoeTheJuggler]

polomontana, please read and reply to my earlier post.

Add to the list fairies, talking with the dead through mediums, phrenology, flat earth, HIV denial, Holocaust denial, and perpetual motion machines.

People who believe in all these things can make at least as good a case as yours, so do you believe in all of those things with as much certainty as you believe in your pet outlandish notions?

[learner]

Polomontana. The problem is that you realy, realy "want" there to be extraterrestrial beings visiting us ( then acting evasive?) It is your "want" that makes the jump from reasonable to unreasonable, in your judgement.

[arthwollipot]

Extraterrestrial, yes. I think it's highly unlikely that life appeared on only one of the hudreds of trillions of planets in the known universe.

Extradimensional? Not so much.

[gambling_cruiser]

But the bible shows clearly (insert personal favorite bible nonsense) that only one planet with intelligent life is allowed per galaxy at any given time.
:D

[SusanB-M1]

polomontana

I do hope that you are young and that
(a) you will read all the well-argued replies from the above JREF members and change your mind to a more rational approach;
(b) that you will, of course, retain an immense enjoyment from reading all the wonderfully imaginative things and ideas you have been quoting;
(c) that you will continue to read the revisionist-type books, but with very much of a critical eye;
(d) that you will, as a result of being on this forum and conversing with the excellent and extremely well-informed people here, spend the rest of your life firmly on the sceptical side, whilst keeping (b).

When I was younger, I read all the UFO, Daniken etc etc stuff ...and thought they were great fun but that they were a challenge to the conventional Geologists et al for them to re-convince us of their own work. Went out with a group FO-spotting once too ... no luck though!

And if this sounds a little patronising, I can absolutely assure you it is not written in that way. I find I have benefited so very much from joining this forum and listening to the discussions. If only it had been around a long time ago...

[tiger]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.

You can come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence without ABSOLUTE proof.

We do it everyday in courtrooms. They come to conclusions based on the reason of 12 individuals. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt, but beyond a reasonable doubt.

We do this in fields like Theoretical Physics with things like extra dimensions and parallel universes which most physicist accept without one picture of one of these parallel universes.

We look for the elusive "natural explanation" to these things for example weather balloons or flares. If you can't find a "natural explanation" then the case remains open and unknown.

I can say this, you can look until your blue in the face for a natural explanation that fit's your pre-existing belief system and you will not find one outside of extraterrestrial/extradimensional spacecraft and beings.

These things exist beyond any reasonable doubt.

Case after case remains "open" as some people search for a natural explanation that doesn't exist in the context of their pre-existing belief.

Extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings would be a natural explanation in the context of extra dimensions or beings who are years ahead of us in evolution and technology.

You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step towards Enlightenment.

It's like Plato and the Allegory of the cave. People in the cave can't think beyond their perception and because of decoherence they think they are all that there is.

I will leave you with a few quotes from Einstein.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."

"When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge."

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity."

http://www.quotesandsayings.com/qeinstein.htm


It's reasonable plausible but i don't think we can say beyond reasonable doubt.

[UnrepentantSinner]

. . . . . .
ETA: would you please specify precisely which cave paintings support your theory?

I wonder how many of them will look similar to ones Creationists use to support their claim that humans and dinosaurs lived contemporaneously.

[paximperium]

I think some people within the "mainstream" do not accept these things because of a pre-existing belief system. Scientist are not immune to belief. Ad hominem

These things are not like Hawking Radiation or Virtual Particles. They will have to answer questions that challenge their worldview wether it's secular or religious in nature. Another ad hominem

Like what about life after death and did these beings have anything to do with why we are here. Some people are settled in their belief so extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings are hard to accept. It will be accepted if you actually had evidence to support your assertions. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
Secondly,

I thought about their travel somewhat and I think these questions need to be studied more because they could also help with our energy sources and our modes of travel. You've already jumped to a conclusion that aliens exist and have a magic power source. You have yet to even show any evidence that there is anything to study.

I think we could be seeing extradimensial beings who can easily traverse are timeline. So they can move in ways that would be very foreign to us. Why do even think that aliens are "extradimentional"?

Extraterrestrial beings could be warping space. This would mean they are traveling through warped passages and they are being pushed by space at speeds up to and faster than light. I think this is why some seem to be bouncing around from place to place. Unjustified assertion and Special pleading

Maybe next time there's a sighting we could dispatch a plane that will look for trace evidence of the energy they would be using to warp space. Maybe its been done before? Maybe there is nothing to study? Maybe its a waste of resources?

I think gravity is determined by the geometry of space-time and if you can warp space to a geometry where the gravitons mass is changed, then travel through these warped passages might become easier. Wow...are you making this up or any you quoting an episode of Star Trek?

These are hypotheticals but these questions need to be explored more. Sure...once you have shown that there is something to even explore.

Lastly,

I do believe that there's a connection between the Bible and Ufology.

I think the ancients were trying to describe future technology in the language of the day. Where?

So you would get Chariots of Fire ot beasts with wheels. Retrodicting aren't you?

I think some of these messengers were connected to higher dimensions and U.F.O.'s. You have yet to even justify this claim.

A good place to check out is Bible-UFO Connection.
http://www.bibleufo.com/

Check out:
http://www.ufoartwork.com/

You need to justify that there is anything to even look into. Your "evidence" of UFO sightings are extremely weak and many have explanations. Eyewitnessed accounts of alien abductions are unreliable because of inconsistencies in many of these testimonies and the strong cultural relation with the aliens/succubus/purple gree thing/greys etc. that are "witnessed".

The bible UFO and UFOartwork cited are a joke. The Bible-UFO connection is nothing more than retrofitting unexplained or weird descriptions to your preconceived notions. The artwork is also retrofitting data. I like the artwork of the chinese sky chariot...nevermind that it showed some Chinese godd or the weird shaped things in the sky that could be UFOs or flying whales.

This leaves you with the unexplained as evidence for your claims and that is too weak to accept as "beyond reasonable doubt".

[Correa Neto]

You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step towards Enlightenment.

The Borg Queen actually said:
"You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become."
Get your alien quotes and sources straight, please.

[Ladewig]

First,

I think some people within the "mainstream" do not accept these things because of a pre-existing belief system. Scientist are not immune to belief.

These things are not like Hawking Radiation or Virtual Particles. They will have to answer questions that challenge their worldview wether it's secular or religious in nature.

Like what about life after death and did these beings have anything to do with why we are here. Some people are settled in their belief so extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings are hard to accept.


I am having a hard time accepting your reply. Science gave us the Drake Equation almost 50 years ago. The majority of people on this board and (probably) the majority of scientists believe that the odds are favorable for other intelligent life somewhere in the universe. With such a belief why would they be so antithetical towards the possibilty of alien visitors?

Furthermore your insistence that great numbers of scientists believe things with so little evidence (post #19) should make them more likely to believe in ET visitations.

. . . . . . .
Still waiting on the cave painting references.

[shadron]

It's reasonable plausible but i don't think we can say beyond reasonable doubt.

"Reasonable doubt" is a legal definition of how far the evidence must go in order to be judged true in certain legal circumstances. This is *NOT* the case in scientific evidence. Reasonable doubt depends on the mental state of the doubter; science admits to no such requirement (or, rather no such license). In science, for a theory (or law or hypothesis) to be true it must have evidence that is not in any doubt (that is, is not falsified by any real, otherwise undisputed data), and that evidence must allow for falsifiability and be repeatable by any interested scientist. Non-repeatable observations are not considered evidence until they can be brought under scientific control, so they can be reliably, repeatedly observed.

This (more or less) requires that before aliens can be considered to be a possible reason for UFOs that all UFO phenomena become controllable so that testing of your hypothesis can be reliably done. Of course, if that can be done then your hypothesis will probably be moot. There are examples of controlled UFO observations - things like Iridium satellite sightings, aircraft lights (particularly on approaches to distant airports), atmospheric effects and so on. One can determine how to observe these and test for them. Unfortunately for you, they are no longer "unidentified" when they are explained, and none so far has led in a direction of alien explanations. As has been often repeated, "I believe in UFOs - it's the people who insist in identifying them as unproven aliens that I disagree with."

[Miss Whiplash]

Even more evidence.

The following presents a statistical analysis of data found in 3,189 reports involving observations of anomalous phenomena or objects on or near the ground resulting in physical effects generated by the unknown objects observed. These events took place in 91 countries between 1490 and 2006. There are hundreds of additional reports of possible trace sites which do not involve the observation of a UFO. All but the most significant of these events have been removed from the primary files and located in a secondary catalog.The analysis permits certain regularities of these phenomena to be brought out. The data indicates there is a certain type of phenomenon which shows stable statistical properties.

Many of these events involve multiple witnesses, observing unknown objects under good seeing conditions, at close range, detailed objects visible for extended periods of time, resting on or near the ground with known reference points providing a certain connection between the observed object and the resulting physical traces. Small humanoids have been seen in a substantial number of cases meeting the high strangeness standards.

http://ufophysical.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=26

We have evidence beyond any reasonable doubt and beyond any conventional "natural explanation."

Skeptics have to have more than their opinion to refute all of the evidence.

Evidence is a crashed alien space ship. None of the observations you have cited is evidence - those are anecdotes. Evidence is physical, not stories by observers.

BTW-Ronald Reagan had Alzheimer's and was addled for the last 25 years of his life. I'm sure he saw quite a few things.

[Spung]

OMG, that UFO artwork site is a RIOT (she shrieks)! (Doctor in Art History here, FWIW). A great many of those "UFOs" cited (when not completely crap scans or things for which I'd love to see the original) are extremely well-established imagery for, for example, the sun and moon as visible at the Crucifixion, or conventions for clouds, the Buddhist wheel of the law, Halley's comet (I'd like some of those "10th century" dates checked), God/the Holy Ghost at the Annunciation, world-orb with the cross cropped out, etc. Sometimes a hat is a hat. Others are from 16th-c broadsheets of apparitions, and should be accounted the same evidentiary weight as eyewitness accounts around the same time of fish with cryptic writing on them, witches, werewolves, the philosophers' stone, Jews eating Christian babies, and unicorns.

[Ladewig]

. . . . . . .
Still waiting on the cave painting references.

Nevermind. I found the examples on the CrystalLinks site along with claims as far-fetched as

"The first king was Alorus, who ruled for 120 sari, or 432,000 years before the Flood (note 162,000 years).
Abulim reigned for 28,800 years.
Abolga reigned 36,000 years."

I am worried that communication will break down soon as you and several people in the JREF forum cannot agree on things as simple as what constitutes reasonable evidence and what does not.


Things that appear in artwork over several hundreds years ago are not evidence. If I find a painting of a unicorn, no reasonable person would claim that that is reliable evidence of the existence of unicorns.

[Correa Neto]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/XVIICENTURY.jpg
Of course those XVII Century folks must have been thinking of starships when they places sculptures like that at their churches. It has to do with some connection between ancient astronauts and the Bible. Compare with this:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/aries6.jpg
What else can it be? A cannonball like teh close-minded-stabilishment-main stream folks want you to believe? Nonsense. What sculpted cannonbals have to do with churches? Not to mention the clear rocket ehxaust plumes!



...snip...Things that appear in artwork over several hundreds years ago are not evidence. If I find a painting of a unicorn, no reasonable person would claim that that is reliable evidence of the existence of unicorns.
I was about to write something about the above sentences, UFOlogists and cryptozoologists, but then I noticed the word "reasonable"...

[tiger]

"Reasonable doubt" is a legal definition of how far the evidence must go in order to be judged true in certain legal circumstances. This is *NOT* the case in scientific evidence. Reasonable doubt depends on the mental state of the doubter; science admits to no such requirement (or, rather no such license). In science, for a theory (or law or hypothesis) to be true it must have evidence that is not in any doubt (that is, is not falsified by any real, otherwise undisputed data), and that evidence must allow for falsifiability and be repeatable by any interested scientist. Non-repeatable observations are not considered evidence until they can be brought under scientific control, so they can be reliably, repeatedly observed.

This (more or less) requires that before aliens can be considered to be a possible reason for UFOs that all UFO phenomena become controllable so that testing of your hypothesis can be reliably done. Of course, if that can be done then your hypothesis will probably be moot. There are examples of controlled UFO observations - things like Iridium satellite sightings, aircraft lights (particularly on approaches to distant airports), atmospheric effects and so on. One can determine how to observe these and test for them. Unfortunately for you, they are no longer "unidentified" when they are explained, and none so far has led in a direction of alien explanations. As has been often repeated, "I believe in UFOs - it's the people who insist in identifying them as unproven aliens that I disagree with."


Ahhh yeah you just went alot farther than you needed to...sorry!

[Timothy]

I can go on and on.

You certainly can.

[John_Geeshu]

I want to know about the Fungi from Yuggoth. Is there any evidence for them on cave walls or in the Bible?

[Tricky]

By the way. Let me point you to a short story by David Brin (http://www.davidbrin.com/thoseeyes1.html), one of my favorite Science Fiction writers. I think you may find it entertaining.
Since no one has discussed this, I'm going to post a few selected passages. The scene is that there is an astronomer who is guest-hosting a call in talk show and the topic turns to UFOs.

There's a really great "catch" in the story which I'm excluding, so you still should check out the link.


If ETs have been mucking around here as long for as some folks say, isn't it funny they never dropped any clear-cut alien artifacts for us to examine? Say, the Martian equivalent of a Coke bottle?
***
How many thousands of people would've worked on that (Roswell) alien ship since forty-eight? Picture these retired coots, playing golf, puttering in the garage, running Rotary fundraisers .... and all this time repressing the urge to blab the story of the century? All of 'em? In today's America? Come on, friend.
***
What? They were here to help us? Well thanks a lot, you alien gods you! Thanks for neglecting to mention flush toilets, printing presses, democracy, or the germ theory of disease! Or ecology, leaving us to ruin half the planet before finally catching on! Hell, if someone had just shown us how to make simple glass lenses, we could've done the rest. How much ignorance and misery we'd have escaped!

You'd credit human innovations like architecture and poetry, physics and empathy, to aliens? ... Really? ... Well I say you insult our poor foremothers and dads, who crawled from the muck, battling superstition and ignorance every step of the way, until we may at last be ready to clean up our act and look the universe in the eye. No, friend. If there were ancient astronauts, we owe them nada, zip, nothing!
***
Maybe there are queer beasties out there who swoop down to rattle signposts and cause power blackouts. Maybe they do kidnap people and take them on joyrides through the cosmos.

But then, out of all those who claim to have met star beings, why has no one ever announced anything they learned from the encounter that was simultaneously true and unambiguous, and that science didn't already know?
***
But there's a second, even better answer to this whole UFO business. Let's admit a slim chance some of these case histories might actually be sightings of little silvery guys riding spaceships. My reply? We can still rule out contact with Intelligent Life! Look at their behavior! Buzzing truck drivers, mutilating farm animals, trampling corn fields, kidnapping people to stick needles in their brains... is this any way for intelligent beings to act?
***
In simple fact that behavior is indefensible. It is the kind of activity you'd expect from meddlesome lunatics, not mature guests visiting our star system. I don't care how much smarter they are supposed to be, or how much more spiritually elevated. A high-IQ vandal in my home is still a vandal!
Brin says much more, so I recommend you read it. I'll distill one point.

Why won't aliens make contact? If UFOs are really aliens, then they are not exactly hiding their existence. If all of this "evidence" that polomontana claims is real, then the ETs must surely know that we are on to them. Why then won't they talk to us? They must have been picking up our radio and TV broadcasts for years. They surely know our languages by now. Are they really that stupid and rude, or are they simply not here? Which conclusion makes more sense?

[dafydd]

Why do you people bother replying to this deluded person? You must have the patience of saints.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why do you people bother replying to this deluded person? You must have the patience of saints.

You're new here aren't you?

We have to reply because it's our penance in this existence for the bad things we did in the previous one. :blush:

[Ateius]

Why then won't they talk to us? They must have been picking up our radio and TV broadcasts for years.

I think you just answered your own question. :D

[fuelair]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.

qeinstein.htm[/url]
You have no direct evidence of anything but people claiming (possibly truthfully) that they have seen things they could not identify. I have seen things I could not identify. So??????
You have no indirect/circumstantial evidence - I can paint, scrape, draw or modi8fy a photo to show anything I want it to. That is only evidence of my ability to create/modify art. Proves nothing.
Einstein has said a number of provocative things, he has also said a number of interpretable things, and he has implied he was religious and clearly said he wasn't. Quotes from Einstein - unless he said "I saw the saucer, an alien came out of it, threw out some guy with an electrode up his butt and flew away!!"- do not do anything toward proving what you think is true either.

In short, you have what we, in the thinking world, like to call anecdotes. What you need is real evidence (clearly alien anal probes, per-ex, a saucer with a clearly alien powered system/engine, an obviously alien dead or alive or other such would really help.


Same for the Sasquatch people, Loch Ness/ Chessie, etc. fans, ghost hunters, etc. Bring them, show them, prove them OR STFU!!

Have a nice life!!

[Niobe]

No, thanks. My BS meter's needle explodes when someone feeds it with Einstein quotes.
I dry heaved around the allegory of the cave. It's the pretentious cousin of the Galileo gambit.

[tiger]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.

You can come to a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence without ABSOLUTE proof.

We do it everyday in courtrooms. They come to conclusions based on the reason of 12 individuals. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt, but beyond a reasonable doubt.

We do this in fields like Theoretical Physics with things like extra dimensions and parallel universes which most physicist accept without one picture of one of these parallel universes.

We look for the elusive "natural explanation" to these things for example weather balloons or flares. If you can't find a "natural explanation" then the case remains open and unknown.

I can say this, you can look until your blue in the face for a natural explanation that fit's your pre-existing belief system and you will not find one outside of extraterrestrial/extradimensional spacecraft and beings.

These things exist beyond any reasonable doubt.

Case after case remains "open" as some people search for a natural explanation that doesn't exist in the context of their pre-existing belief.

Extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings would be a natural explanation in the context of extra dimensions or beings who are years ahead of us in evolution and technology.

You have to start thinking outside of our 3 dimensional reality and take a step towards Enlightenment.

It's like Plato and the Allegory of the cave. People in the cave can't think beyond their perception and because of decoherence they think they are all that there is.

I will leave you with a few quotes from Einstein.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."

"When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge."

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity."

http://www.quotesandsayings.com/qeinstein.htm

The only evidence that I see that support other life out there in the universe is the fact that we are here and exploring space. However once again if they are out there in space how close are they and science doesn't support them visiting us with what we know! Lights in the sky at night doesn't mean ET's or their vehicles are out there visiting us. When we consider that the moon is over 300,000 miles away alone and it takes years for our probes to reach other planets it's a hard swallow! Now you look at another race being billions and trillions of miles away that is a stretch to think they are visiting us.

[Soapy Sam]

Having been in a group who were convinced a model glider was a full size aircraft until it landed beside us, I'm well aware how hard it is to identify anything in the sky.
Streaks of light seen through dirty, curved aircraft windows do look like accelerating objects when you turn your head; aircraft do out-accelerate sports cars. These are facts.
Facts are strangely lacking in UFO research, and despite the proliferation of cheap digital cameras, that definitive shot continues to elude us. (Ditto ghosts and Nessie- how odd).
Polomontana highlights a good point though- if alien spacecraft do exist (for purposes of the argument), then to expect them to meet the general design / performance criteria of advanced aircraft is as unimaginative as the original Buck Rogers rockets with rivets and sparks coming out the tailpipe. If an FTL vessel exists, it will NOT resemble the USS Enterprise. It will not resemble anything we ever imagined and it won't work any way we imagine either.
Physicists, increasingly DO believe in (or at least treat seriously) the idea of up to 10 spatial dimensions - whether the extra seven can be used for FTL travel is of course, something else again. It seems to me it would be a very short journey.
We generally dismiss the claimed evidence for ET UFO's , because it's lousy evidence. I think we are absolutely right to do so. But there is a valid argument that we might fail to see actual ET transport because it actually IS indistinguishable from magic. That's actually what we should expect.
Not holding my breath though...

[Beerina]

The problem is even with all that mass of evidence, one cannot come to a "reasonable conclusion" that something strange is going on.

May I direct you to a wonderful book by Larry Kusche (http://www.amazon.com/Bermuda-Triangle-Mystery-Solved/dp/0879759712) in a related area, the Bermuda Triangle. It is special because, not only does he return to the source of many famous Bermuda Triangle mysteries for a detailed investigation, he discovers that many sellers of UFO books exaggerate evidence, and ignore other evidence, for the purpose of keeping the "UFOs are real!" narrative going.

In many cases, he details these exaggerations, pointing out how reasonable the official conclusions were (the 5 Navy pilots? A training crew that thought they were in the Gulf but were actually in the Atlantic and ran out of gas. Radio transcriptions support this without a doubt. The rescue flight that went after them, and was seen to blow up? A known flaw in that plane caused it to blow up from time to time. Etc.)

It is a wonderful work that shows how an investigation should be done when you are seeking the truth, rather than wanting to believe and ending your enquiry with the first positive arguments you hear.

[soylent]

Does anyone else reflexively cringe when they hear/see the word "enlightenment"? Polomontana even treats it as a proper noun! Yuck.

You know, I've never heard enlightenment used in a proper context. I've come to just internally substitute it for something akin to "uncritically accept nonsense".

[LawnOven]

I want to know about the Fungi from Yuggoth. Is there any evidence for them on cave walls or in the Bible?

There are people in this world, who believe that HP Lovecraft was an abductee and that many of his stories were based on actual events or visions of actual events.

Yes, really.

[wahrheit]

There are people in this world, who believe that HP Lovecraft was an abductee and that many of his stories were based on actual events or visions of actual events.

Yes, really.

Weird. I always thought he was an author. An author of science fiction, horror and fantasy. Apparently, even that is not good enough for some folks. Instead, they must make him an abductee to enjoy his books. You really have to wonder what is going on in the minds of some people.

[fuelair]

Weird. I always thought he was an author. An author of science fiction, horror and fantasy. Apparently, even that is not good enough for some folks. Instead, they must make him an abductee to enjoy his books. You really have to wonder what is going on in the minds of some people.You may be making a bit of an assumption on that "minds" thing. Just sayin"!:)

[Fnord]

Just because I draw a picture of my friend Harvey, a giant invisible rabbit, does not mean he's real....

Are you trying to say that he is not real? Then ... who's been picking up my bar tab?

[wahrheit]

You may be making a bit of an assumption on that "minds" thing. Just sayin"!:)

Oops, silly me!

[arthwollipot]

The rescue flight that went after them, and was seen to blow up? A known flaw in that plane caused it to blow up from time to time.Wow. Remind me never to get into one of those planes.

Warning: Use of this aircraft may cause sudden unavoidable death. Fly at your own risk.

[Hawthorne]

Once, I was driving down the highway at dusk and I had been driving all day so I was a little tired, and I thought I saw a Bigfoot walking on the side of the road. It made my heart race and caused adrenaline rush through my system. It was just a tree in the wind. A scrubby pine tree on a slightly breezy evening, distorted by lengthening shadows.

And, by the by, just because a Harvard professor is investigating something doesn't mean that something is worth it. There are quite a few kooks teaching at Harvard.

[NoisyAstronomer]

None of which are currently accepted by science. They are being investigated, but none of them has enough empirical evidence to be accepted as existing.

Actually, dark matter is pretty well accepted in the scientific community. The Bullet Cluster is the most convincing empirical evidence to date. Of course, that hasn't told us exactly *what* DM is yet, other than "collisionless component." (Sorry, too new to be able to post links, but Google "bullet cluster" since it's pretty cool stuff! The wikipedia article does a good job of linking the original papers.)

Even dark energy has evidence for the effect, if not for the actual mechanism itself yet.

In general, I admire your pwning of the anti-science!

[Pixel42]

Why do you people bother replying to this deluded person? You must have the patience of saints.
It's a particularly impressive demonstration of the triumph of hope over experience, given that the OP has clearly failed to learn a single thing from the equally patient replies in his/her threads claiming that psychic detectives are also genuine beyond any reasonable doubt.

[Texastwister]

all the proof you need is right Here (http://www.cowabduction.com)

[Professor Yaffle]

Yes, people seeing objects in the sky is iron clad evidence of the existence of aliens...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2248463/Moon-mistaken-for-UFO.html

[Adavidson]

No doubt this is an interesting thread, many good answers and questions. I am not so naive as to say there is no way there could be extraterrestrial life in at least one of the trillion galaxies out there, have they come here to visit? I don't believe they have, but thats just my opinion. Still I do not agree with you polomontana when you say that this is an area we have to explore.

"Extraterrestrial beings could be warping space. This would mean they are traveling through warped passages and they are being pushed by space at speeds up to and faster than light. I think this is why some seem to be bouncing around from place to place.

Maybe next time there's a sighting we could dispatch a plane that will look for trace evidence of the energy they would be using to warp space.

I think gravity is determined by the geometry of space-time and if you can warp space to a geometry where the gravitons mass is changed, then travel through these warped passages might become easier.

These are hypotheticals but these questions need to be explored more."

Am I the only one that thinks we should focus on this planet and its inhabitants?
How`s about we take a look at that war in Congo? Over five million people have died there since 1996? It qualifies for WW3 when you factor in how many countries that are a part of it, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burunda, South Africa, Congo. (Ny tid, Norwegian fact magazine within politics and international relations)

I know this reply is a bit off topic and I apologize, I`m just trying to put things in perspective.

[uruk]

Polomontana. Eyewitness accounts are not evidence.

I can tell that I saw a pink unicorn last night. How can you tell if I made that up or not?

[Ashles]

It's so very odd that with the incredible proliferation of camcorders and mobile phones cameras and video capabilities, UFOs have suddenly become so incredibly shy.

Just one bit of footage close up of a spacecraft (or even inside one, think how many abductees there are supposed to have been) would be great.

Just one.

Maybe it's their special blurry 'cloaking' technology.

Actually I shouldn't make fun - I remember when I was as keen to believe as the OP - I bought loads of those 'True Mysteries' books.
(But I still wouldn't have gone as far as to quote Ronald Reagan's beliefs as evidence for my position - wasn't he the president who judged people's personalities by what Jelly Baby they selected from a bowl?)

[Senex]

The Borg Queen actually said:
"You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become."
Get your alien quotes and sources straight, please.
Small words from a small being, trying to attack what it doesn't understand.

And still be wrong.
But the aluminium hat might be a good idea.
Is it becoming clear to you yet? Look at yourself, standing there, cradling the new flesh I've given you. If it means nothing to you, why protect it?


Why won't aliens make contact? If UFOs are really aliens, then they are not exactly hiding their existence. If all of this "evidence" that polomontana claims is real, then the ETs must surely know that we are on to them. Why then won't they talk to us? They must have been picking up our radio and TV broadcasts for years. They surely know our languages by now. Are they really that stupid and rude, or are they simply not here? Which conclusion makes more sense?
Brave words. I've heard them before, from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created. But, now they are all Borg.


And if this sounds a little patronising, I can absolutely assure you it is not written in that way. I find I have benefited so very much from joining this forum and listening to the discussions. If only it had been around a long time ago...

Such a noble creature. A quality we sometimes lack. We will add your distinctiveness to our own. Welcome home... Locutus (or Susan, in the end you will all be one of us).


I should never have visited that "First Contact" quote page to check if Correa Neto got his Borg Queen quote correct. Now, I'll be quoting the Borg Queen all day.

Darn you Correa Neto!

[moon1969]

Nancy Lieder and George Adamski said they did. Raelians also claim that UFO"s exist. So no they don"t exist beyond any reasonable doubt. Then there is Erich von Däniken and Jordan Maxwell. I think that Kenneth Arnold made up the story about Roswell because Kenneth Arnold was a businessman.

[moon1969]

Many of the quotes are usually taken out of context. So the UFO people many times misinterpret what other people meant. Jimmy Carter said that he saw an UFO but Carter also have said many times that he doesn"t believe that they were aliens. UFO is unidentified object it doesn"t mean aliens. Besides since David Icke said that Carter is a reptile? :D There are too many contradictions in the UFO stories and many things that don"t even make sense.

[Senex]

Nancy Lieder and George Adamski said they did. Raelians also claim that UFO"s exist. So no they don"t exist beyond any reasonable doubt. Then there is Erich von Däniken and Jordan Maxwell. I think that Kenneth Arnold made up the story about Roswell because Kenneth Arnold was a businessman.
"You are an imperfect being, created by an imperfect being. Finding your weakness is only a matter of time."



I can see I'm going to become annoying some time soon.

[UncaYimmy]

I see a few threads hear on U.F.O.'s and I wanted to chime in on the subject.

I say that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist beyond any reasonable doubt based on the evidence.

Within Ufology you have both direct and circumstantial evidence to support the underlying claim.

Direct Evidence - Eyewitness accounts from Presidents, Pilots, police officers, high ranking government officials, abduction cases and more.

Circumstantial evidence - Cave paintings, ancient manuscripts, paintings, pictures, video and trace evidence.


The same can be said for fairies.

[Madalch]

Now, I'll be quoting the Borg Queen all day.

It seems Senex has been assimilated.

[Senex]

It seems Senex has been assimilated.

I am the beginning. The end. The one who is many. I am the Borg.


The imdb site has given me enough Borg Queen quotes to keep this up a long time

[dudalb]

I want to know about the Fungi from Yuggoth. Is there any evidence for them on cave walls or in the Bible?


Do not mock the Great Old Ones. Those who do end up as a snack for Cthuluhu.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Weird. I always thought he was an author.
Say what? HP Lovecraft is a rock group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue35Jxdpxbo&feature=related


~~ Paul

[Limbo]

You're probably wasting your time polomontana. For the JREF crowd nothing short of seeing a UFO themselves on the White House Lawn will do. So they don't examine evidence, whether it's the patterns that emerge in eye-witness testimony, the physical evidence, or the ancient evidence.

Investigating the UFO phenomenon is for those who have seen UFOs, not for skeptics.

[paximperium]

Uh guys, you do realize this thread was started in June and has been inactive until today?

[JihadJane]

0101001:shocked::shocked::shocked:001001010010010? ƒß:shocked:?^߃ß~,,,, ?do ?do ,,, ~??*ø?ƒ* dod[ÏÏÏÏÏ m?øµ?do doddos:shocked::shocked::shocked: :shocked: :shocked: Á‰ÂÊ :shocked:[d0wG0T TO ?‘?“??ÙÒ؈Ï

ÔÎÈØ:shocked::shocked:*Î
–?„

[Senex]

You're probably wasting your time polomontana. For the JREF crowd nothing short of seeing a UFO themselves on the White House Lawn will do. So they don't examine evidence, whether it's the patterns that emerge in eye-witness testimony, the physical evidence, or the ancient evidence.

Investigating the UFO phenomenon is for those who have seen UFOs, not for skeptics.

Are you offering yourself to us?

Uh guys, you do realize this thread was started in June and has been inactive until today?

What's wrong, Locutus? Isn't this familiar? Organic minds are such fragile things. How could you forget me so quickly? We were very close, you and I. You can still hear our song.



OK, I quit. I'm annoying myself now.

[Senex]

0101001:shocked::shocked::shocked:001001010010010

ÔÎÈØ:shocked::shocked:*Î
–?„[COLOR="Cyan"]


You are in chaos, Data. You are the contradiction: a machine who wishes to be human.


Who was I kidding. Resistance was futile.

[JihadJane]

• fertile

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Soylent Green is Marmite.

It's a book about working in a men's wear department!

And the TRVTH shall make you FREE.

[arthwollipot]

You're probably wasting your time polomontana. For the JREF crowd nothing short of seeing a UFO themselves on the White House Lawn will do. So they don't examine evidence, whether it's the patterns that emerge in eye-witness testimony, the physical evidence, or the ancient evidence.

Investigating the UFO phenomenon is for those who have seen UFOs, not for skeptics.Would it surprise you to know that there have been many people who have investigated the UFO phenomenon and found that there was no reliable evidence for alien spacecraft?

Do you know the profession that is least likely to report having seen a UFO? Astronomers. You'd think with all the time that astronomers spend looking at the sky, they'd report more UFOs than other people. But no, in fact they report practically none. Don't you wonder why that is?

[Limbo]

Would it surprise you to know that there have been many people who have investigated the UFO phenomenon and found that there was no reliable evidence for alien spacecraft?

Do you know the profession that is least likely to report having seen a UFO? Astronomers. You'd think with all the time that astronomers spend looking at the sky, they'd report more UFOs than other people. But no, in fact they report practically none. Don't you wonder why that is?


*sigh*

Talking to you guys is a waste of time.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/CaseView.asp?section=Astronomer

[plumjam]

Do you know the profession that is least likely to report having seen a UFO? Astronomers. You'd think with all the time that astronomers spend looking at the sky, they'd report more UFOs than other people. But no, in fact they report practically none. Don't you wonder why that is?

Not that I'm much interested in UFOs, but has it occurred to you that any astronomer reporting UFOs would be seriously endangering his credibility?
Also (minor point) don't they spend most of their time focusing the telescope on objects millions of miles away rather than objects flying about in the Earth's atmosphere/near orbit?

[arthwollipot]

*sigh*

Talking to you guys is a waste of time.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/CaseView.asp?section=AstronomerThree cases since 1676. I think this actually demonstrates my point better than anything else that could possibly be provided. The only evidence I had was anecdotal. You've just provided exactly the proof I needed.

Thanks, Limbo!

[arthwollipot]

Not that I'm much interested in UFOs, but has it occurred to you that any astronomer reporting UFOs would be seriously endangering his credibility?Depends. An astronomer ought to be experienced enough to actually provide decent evidence of extraterrestrial life. SETI is an astronomy project. If an astronomer were actually to provide reliable evidence of life on other planets, fame, fortune and Nobel prizes would be theirs for the taking.

Of course, if all one provided was a vague, anecdotal description with no photographs and no corroborating witnesses (http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case655.htm), then sure, they'd probably be ridiculed.

Also (minor point) don't they spend most of their time focusing the telescope on objects millions of miles away rather than objects flying about in the Earth's atmosphere/near orbit?Not always. Astronomers also spend quite a bit of time just looking up, no telescope required.

[PixyMisa]

You're probably wasting your time polomontana. For the JREF crowd nothing short of seeing a UFO themselves on the White House Lawn will do. So they don't examine evidence, whether it's the patterns that emerge in eye-witness testimony, the physical evidence, or the ancient evidence.
What physical evidence?

[Skeptic Guy]

From the OP:


"When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge."


You might have something here, whenever I examine myself, there's usually a lot of fantasy involved...what? Why are you looking at me like that?

[arthwollipot]

Wait, the OP is actually saying that fantasy is more important than knowledge?

I think that explains the entire thread.

[Ashles]

Talking to you guys is a waste of time.
Well it is if you haven't got anything to say.

Any thoughts on the absence of video footage that should be growing exponentially with all the media recording devices in circulation?
(This should be good)

[Senex]

From the OP:



You might have something here, whenever I examine myself, there's usually a lot of fantasy involved...what? Why are you looking at me like that?

We too are on a quest to better ourselves, evolving toward a state of perfection.

Has not one of you been impressed with the wisdom of the Borg Queen?

[kitakaze]

You're probably wasting your time polomontana. For the JREF crowd nothing short of seeing a UFO themselves on the White House Lawn will do. So they don't examine evidence, whether it's the patterns that emerge in eye-witness testimony, the physical evidence, or the ancient evidence.

Investigating the UFO phenomenon is for those who have seen UFOs, not for skeptics.

Hi, Limbo. I'm very curious about these patterns you refer to. Can you elaborate on what you feel those patterns indicate?

Also, what do you think of the very important evidence linking Bigfoot, aliens, and Martian civilization?

Here's a taste:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_896149235852d5577.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14296)

BTW, this question is for Limbo. If any of you hopeless denialists try and rain on my parade, I'll poop on your foot, Bigfoot style.

[manofthesea]

Also, what do you think of the very important evidence linking Bigfoot, aliens, and Martian civilization?

Here's a taste:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_896149235852d5577.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14296)





(What happens when interdimensional bigfoot (interfoot) ducks into the wrong wormhole?)

Just watched Kaku on History Channel's "The Universe" explaining the possibility of extinct creatures sharing our time and space. Interesting.
However, I'm not seeing the 'Martian civilization'.

[godless dave]

*sigh*

Talking to you guys is a waste of time.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/CaseView.asp?section=Astronomer


Your link did not in any way contradict what arthwollipot posted.

[kitakaze]

However, I'm not seeing the 'Martian civilization'.Would you tell Sweaty the specific reason in the Martian civilization thread?

[manofthesea]

Would you tell Sweaty the specific reason in the Martian civilization thread?

I was just using the photo as reference. I've never studied the 'canals' or anything. Mars is just a tiny dot in my refractor and reflector. I am interested in Kaku's/Historians theories now.
Do you think I outran 'Predator'? That's way cooler than 'olstinkyfoot'. Local indian tribes' legends kinda ascribe to the interdimensional bigfoot hypothesis also, correct?

[kitakaze]

Keep in mind that Historian and Michio Kaku are not on the same page. Burgstahler has his own page in his own comic book. Many native tribes have myths and traditions of all sorts of supernatural beings just like every other culture on Earth.

I think if you outran anything, a piece of construction equipment would more likely than Bigfoot.

[manofthesea]

Keep in mind that Historian and Michio Kaku are not on the same page. Burgstahler has his own page in his own comic book. Many native tribes have myths and traditions of all sorts of supernatural beings just like every other culture on Earth.

I think if you outran anything, a piece of construction equipment would more likely than Bigfoot.

Can you edit your last sentence to make a little sense?

[kitakaze]

I understand this may be difficult for you.

You were never chased by Bigfoot.

[manofthesea]

I understand this may be difficult for you.

You were never chased by Bigfoot.

Correct. We both know it was Predator. He must run like those flat footed coppers back on Beacon Hill.

The only other absolute we've arrived at in our discussions is that you were never a buddhist disciple.

[kitakaze]

Never claimed to be a Buddhist disciple, monk, or anything other than a person who studied it. You can quote and link the post where I make such a statement, of course.

I'm glad you've accepted that you were never chased by Bigfoot. Progress.

[manofthesea]

Never claimed to be a Buddhist disciple, monk, or anything other than a person who studied it. You can quote and link the post where I make such a statement, of course.

I'm glad you've accepted that you were never chased by Bigfoot. Progress.

Reason, restraint (and suffering) was too much to accept? I understand completely. 2,000 years ago another philosopher appeared and preached compassion. Try and study that, and report back if you actually develop a foul taste in your mouth.

It's difficult understanding brainiacs like Kaku and Historian, but the theories expounded are actually very reasonable. Remember, I never even finished 10th grade.

[kitakaze]

I've studied Christianity and various sects of it also. Just not in the same depth as Nichiren Buddhism. I have a good friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist educator that I debate theology and evolution with. Jesus was a very interesting man.

Nothing in Christian fundaments make me feel bad about helping you understand you weren't chased by a giant bipedal non-human primate when you were a kid.

Again, Michio Kaku and Neil Burgstahler are nothing a like. Both in terms of intellect and ideas they propose. Kaku is a lauded theoretical physicist and Burgstahler is a delusional person with internet access.

ETA: How come no quote and link to where I claim to be a Buddhist disciple? That's what you alluded to. There must have been some substance to the attempt at deflection, no?

[manofthesea]

I've studied Christianity and various sects of it also. Just not in the same depth as Nichiren Buddhism. I have a good friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist educator that I debate theology and evolution with. Jesus was a very interesting man.

Nothing in Christian fundaments make me feel bad about helping you understand you weren't chased by a giant bipedal non-human primate when you were a kid.

Again, Michio Kaku and Neil Burgstahler are nothing a like. Both in terms of intellect and ideas they propose. Kaku is a lauded theoretical physicist and Burgstahler is a delusional person with internet access.

Your amount of uninformed presumptiveness is staggering.
Watch Kaku's latest show on History Channel, The Universe.

A skeptic could ask you to prove that Jesus actually existed, but I accept his existance also.

[kitakaze]

I think you will find few here who argue the historical fact of Jesus of Nazareth's existence. Same with other historical figures, such as Nebuchadnezzar. Jesus being God incarnate is another thing.

You are welcome to specifically point out what uninformed presumptions I am making. Don't bother with your Bigfoot chase claim, as I am informed about that.

Let me help you with your understanding, if I may. Two questions:

1. What are Michio Kaku's theories and what was does he propose about other dimensions?

2. What are Neil Burgstahler's ideas about interdimensional beings and what does he claim?

[godless dave]

I understand this may be difficult for you.

You were never chased by Bigfoot.

He means you left out a "be". I think you meant to write:

I think if you outran anything, a piece of construction equipment would be more likely than Bigfoot.

[The_Animus]

Anecdotes are not evidence.

If you wish to make this claim I suggest you choose one individual case which you feel has the most and best evidence of UFO's. Present said evidence and I will look at it. If I feel the evidence is credible I will say so. If I feel there is a problem with the evidence I will point it out.

[kitakaze]

He means you left out a "be". I think you meant to write:You're right, godless dave. I missed that, thanks for pointing that out. I guess the omission of the word "be" made it completely unintelligible for some.:D

I want to a better writer.

[manofthesea]

Let me help you with your understanding, if I may. Two questions:

1. What are Michio Kaku's theories and what was does he propose about other dimensions?

2. What are Neil Burgstahler's ideas about interdimensional beings and what does he claim?

1. Michio Kaku, along with many other astrophysicists, presented the latest theories on "The Universe", on History Channel. He stated the possibility of extinct creatures sharing our time and space, specifically our living rooms. They presented a bipedal dinosaur stomping through the area, computer generated of course.

They are trying to acquire proof by smashing atoms at near light speed, then documenting the effects.

2. See the 'Invisible Bigfoot' thread for more in depth information specifically regarding the interdimensional creatures that exist. Presented by Historian.

[manofthesea]

You're right, godless dave. I missed that, thanks for pointing that out. I guess the omission of the word "be" made it completely unintelligible for some.:D

I want to a better writer.

As did my omission of 'u ka'.

[kitakaze]

1. Michio Kaku, along with many other astrophysicists, presented the latest theories on "The Universe", on History Channel. He stated the possibility of extinct creatures sharing our time and space, specifically our living rooms. They presented a bipedal dinosaur stomping through the area, computer generated of course.

They are trying to acquire proof by smashing atoms at near light speed, then documenting the effects.

2. See the 'Invisible Bigfoot' thread for more in depth information specifically regarding the interdimensional creatures that exist. Presented by Historian.

MOTS, I have not seen that particular episode of The Universe so obviously I'm limited to speculation. I've seen many presentations by Michio Kaku including talks on theoretical alternate universes and higher dimensions. I wonder, was the bipedal dinosaur you refer to a reptilian humanoid type being?

I asked you about Neil's ideas not because I want to know (you should be well aware of my familiarity with them). I wanted to know if you understand them because they are not in line with Kaku's theories other than the superficial element of dimensions. Neil is talking about interdimensional travel of dwarves, Bigfoots, and other beings to ours with whom he is in communication with. They follow him around, do his biddings, and listen to his thoughts. He goes on Bigfoot expeditions and chases other members around with Rambo war paint. He advertises paranormal Bigfoot tours on the internet. He is of questionable mental health. Neil had never even heard of Kaku when I first mentioned the man to him.

Kaku is a brilliant respected theoretical physicist. He has done much to bring the wonders and mysteries of science to everyday people. If he were to meet Neil Burgstahler and listen to his delusions about being at Berkley while Stephen Hawking was there doing work on interdimensional Bigfoot and diplomas were handed out with the phrase "Bigfoot is real," he would most likely nod politely and try to excuse himself.

I think you are entertaining paranormal Bigfoot to try and find someway to further rationalize your belief in Bigfoot. Maybe the Bigfoot that chased you though you never saw it was interdimensional. Maybe the Bigfoot that you thought you saw though the family members with you didn't was phase shifting somehow.

What would it take for you to begin considering that Bigfoot exists in our minds only?

[Cainkane1]

Extratyerrestrials don't exist. Just because you see something flying in the air that you don't know what it is doesn't mean its a UFO from another planet.

[kitakaze]

Cainkane1, I and just about everyone here would agree with your second sentence. I think we've touched on this before but I don't think the first statement is what most skeptics would ascribe to. I think "we don't definitively know extraterrestrial beings exist," would be more appropriate.

I find it pretty hard to imagine we are alone in the universe but I also find it hard to imagine we are being visited by aliens.

[manofthesea]

MOTS, I have not seen that particular episode of The Universe so obviously I'm limited to speculation.


Your speculations are much more entertaing than Neto's.

[manofthesea]

. I wonder, was the bipedal dinosaur you refer to a reptilian humanoid type being?



TRex

[kitakaze]

Your speculations are much more entertaing than Neto's.

How so? And in what way are they inappropriate or baseless?

Also, there was a couple questions in the post you quoted I was hoping you would answer. It would help me understand where you're coming from.

ETA: Put in a quote. Also, MOTS, you are entitled to respond in whatever manner you see fit but it would make things a lot easier if you responded to one post with one post. Multiquoting makes it much easier.

[manofthesea]

I think you are entertaining paranormal Bigfoot to try and find someway to further rationalize your belief in Bigfoot. Maybe the Bigfoot that chased you though you never saw it was interdimensional. Maybe the Bigfoot that you thought you saw though the family members with you didn't was phase shifting somehow.

What would it take for you to begin considering that Bigfoot exists in our minds only?

The first paragraph is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts. Similar to what Parcher did.

I can then assume you are intentionally misrepresenting Historian also.

[arthwollipot]

No, from what I read of historian, this is pretty much right on the mark.

[Malerin]

Anecdotes are not evidence.



This has been said several times and of course it's not true. For example, if your spouse calls you and tells you to come home because the house caught fire, would you call someone else to verify her story? If a friend tells you they make X amount a year at their job, do you not believe them until they show you a paystub?

[paximperium]

This has been said several times and of course it's not true. For example, if your spouse calls you and tells you to come home because the house caught fire, would you call someone else to verify her story? If a friend tells you they make X amount a year at their job, do you not believe them until they show you a paystub?
That is a terrible analogy.

If your spouse called you and said your house is on fire, all the evidence from prior experience(ie. evidence) will help you conclude if your spouse is a liar, a pyromaniac, insane or telling the truth.

If a friend tells me that they make X amount a year, all my experience with that individual(ie. evidence), the car they drive, the house the live in etc. will help me conclude if they are telling the truth.

That said, anecdotes are evidence. Very weak and prone to error. Anecdotes help us determine if they is a question to ask(Jim, Bob saw a UFO in New York) . Stronger evidence helps us answer that question(Bob was in Vegas and drunk when he claimed to have seen the UFO).

[kitakaze]

The first paragraph is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts. Similar to what Parcher did.

I can then assume you are intentionally misrepresenting Historian also.

Please, by all means, explain how I intentionally misrepresented facts. I pretty sure I didn't. If I got the facts wrong, I would appreciate being corrected so as not to repeat the error in the future. I find it strange that you would tell me I intentionally misrepresented facts without then explaining what the facts were. It's like when you make it seem like I claim to be a Buddhist disciple yet when I ask for a quote and link for that claim I get nothing.

Here's a link to your Bigfoot tales at BFF:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=19299

I'm pretty sure I haven't flubbed any details. Please correct me if I have.

[Locknar]

The first paragraph is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts. Similar to what Parcher did.No; kitakaze was pretty much spot on.


I can then assume you are intentionally misrepresenting Historian also.No. Kitakaze gave a factual account of Historian and his various claims about Bigfoot, Berkley, and Dr Hawking.

[manofthesea]

Maybe the Bigfoot that you thought you saw though the family members with you didn't was phase shifting somehow.



Mine and my friend's families didn't experience the encounter although a number of them were outside of the cabin when we came running down the mountain.

[kitakaze]

What say you, sir?:

I have another story about encountering sasquatch. It was after we had been chased, but it was the same year. My dad was taking my brother and me fishing on some river near Ferndale/Bellingham. On the trail to the fishing site I looked upon an old tree, (we were in a pretty dark forest) and thought that I saw a face that was blended with the tree. It was staring right at us. It was an old tree with lots of moss, fallen trees all around. Anyway it seemed to be just looking at us. It was a big face, about a foot in height and kinda wide. The eyes were what caught my attention. The body could not be made out. We were about 30 feet away, when I stopped everybody and pointed it out. It took a while for them to see it. The eyes would disappear and reappear, as if blinking or closing his eyes. The face never moved. They (father and brother) were at the cabin the first time I encountered one, but they both kept acting like skeptics (having me to take