Racism Addressed

[Wolfman]

As some people here know, myself and a small group of Chinese scientists/intellectuals have recently gotten permission to start up the first official skeptical and critical thinking organization in China. Already, we're getting a bit of a reputation, and about three weeks ago, I was invited as the only foreign participant in a public discussion/debate about the earthquake in Sichuan province, and the response to that earthquake. The discussion was divided into three sections: the Chinese gov't's response; the Chinese peoples' response; and the international response.

My role was fairly subdued during the first two parts of the discussion, mainly because there wasn't much they said that I disagreed with, or that I could add to. The response to the quake, both by the government and by the citizenry, was admirable and worthy of praise by pretty much any standard.

It was when we got to the third portion on the international response that I got involved. One of the first countries to be allowed in to help with rescue/relief efforts was Japan...but the vast majority of Chinese have a quite passionate hatred for the Japanese, and the decision of the government to let these hated oppressors come into China was the source of much controversy and anger in China. The meeting quickly devolved into passionate denunciations of the Japanese.

It was at this point that I jumped into the fray, with a ten-minute speech that addressed issues that I've long been considering, but never before had a public forum in which to address them. As I expect this particular post to get at least one or two TLA nominations, I will write it as a separate post (another triumph for solipsistic autosychophancy...I am pretty much nominating my post before it is even made!!!).

If you are reading this, and there is no post by me immediately following it, that is because I am still writing it, and you should wait until I've finished ;)

[Pardalis]

I was going to say congrats for your organization but I see you're doing a good job of self-congratulating already.

[plumjam]

Wolfman, stop making things up, and just concentrate on your life as a milkman in Rotherham.

[Megalodon]

Come on, the man asked us to not post until he posts again...

[Pardalis]

So we're just supposed to sit there and wait?

[Madalch]

So we're just supposed to sit there and wait?

Yes! Respect the man's wishes!

[Megalodon]

Agreed.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Only an elitist would take this long...









:p

[LibraryLady]

I've never understood what's wrong with being in the elite.

Give the man time.

[Wolfman]

I stood up, and began by saying, "I have not said much so far this evening, but this is a topic on which I feel I have a lot to contribute. I have been living in China for 15 years, and I have had many discussions with Chinese about their feelings towards the Japanese. I understand the reasons for your anger, and your hatred. But I'd like to offer a different perspective. I would ask that you allow me ten minutes to speak, uninterrupted."

They agreed.

I took the podium.

"During WW II, the Japanese did terrible things to the peoples of China, Korea, and many other countries. These things were terrible, and were inexcusable, by any standard whatsoever. I am not going to try to make excuses for what the Japanese soldiers did, or deny their abuses."

"Your feelings of anger, and of hatred, for those who committed such acts is entirely justified; as is anger towards the Germans who attempted to commit genocide in Europe. Such actions should be condemned by the world at large, and by the peoples of every civilized nation."

"But it is my opinion, and my belief, that the hatred so many of you feel towards the Japanese today is unwarranted, and unfair. You are no longer hating the people who hurt you; instead, you are hating their children, or their grandchildren, or their great-grandchildren. And these are people who have never done anything to hurt you; and many of whom feel great shame over the things that their predecessors did."

"The Japanese government refuses to admit the full extent of the abuses, and even tries to print textbooks that deny what happened. That is true. But does that make all of the Japanese people evil? I have read many Chinese textbooks, and none of them mention the abuses of the Great Leap Forward, or the Cultural Revolution; or if they mention them, they try to make excuses for them. Most of you here today lived through those events. If the Japanese people are evil because their government tries to deny or cover up their abuses, does that mean that the Chinese people are evil because their government doesn't like to discuss its past failures and abuses?"

"Of course not."

"In fact, every country in the world, including my own, does this. It is natural for us to be ashamed of the mistakes we have made, and of the abuses we have committed. We don't like to dwell on those things...it is human nature to try to ignore them, or to make excuses for them. The way the Japanese have reacted doesn't make them any more evil than it does you -- it just makes them human."

"Some of you will say that the things that the Japanese soldiers did could only be done by people who are evil, and that therefore this proves that the Japanese are evil. But if you study Chinese history, over the past 5000 years, you know that there will be many examples of terrible abuses committed by Chinese people, both against their fellow Chinese, and against those of other nations. Does this mean that Chinese are evil?"

"Of course not."

"Again, it is not a symptom of being Japanese, but a symptom of being human. And every country or culture in the world has a legacy of similar abuses."

"I want to present to you another perspective. I have a number of Japanese friends here in China. Many of them have come to China specifically because they feel shame over the actions of their ancestors, and they feel a responsibility to do what they can to help China today, to atone for the past abuses."

"One such Japanese woman is a friend of mine, Rumi. She came to China in 1999, with the goal of helping Chinese people. Over a period of seven years, she helped build schools, set up medical programs, and did many other things that significantly helped Chinese people. In fact, she probably did more things to help more Chinese people than most of you who are here today."

"Rumi lived in a Chinese apartment building, with Chinese neighbors. Most of them, when they discovered she was Japanese, refused to even talk to her. Then, about two years ago, when anger against the Japanese government was rising again, four Chinese men from her building broke into her apartment. They beat her up, and destroyed everything in her apartment. They shouted slogans about how evil the Japanese were, and screamed at her to leave China. Everyone else in the building knew what was happening; nobody tried to stop it, nobody called the police."

"I often hear Chinese people talk about the 'character' of Japanese people as being cruel, evil, heartless, etc. But consider this situation. We had a Japanese woman who made many personal sacrifices to help the people of China; and we had Chinese men who acted in a cruel, evil, and heartless manner."

"If I tell this story to Japanese people, or to Canadians, would it be reasonable for them to say, 'We hate the Chinese people', or 'The Chinese people are evil'? Of course not. These were the actions of individual people. It is reasonable to hate the people who did it; but unreasonable to hate all Chinese."

"One of the reasons why the Japanese, or the Germans, were able to convince their people to commit such terrible abuses during WW II, was that they convinced them that 'other people' were inferior, or evil, or a threat. The Germans said that Jews were evil, trying to control their government; the Japanese said that other Asians were inferior, and needed to be united under the superior Japanese leadership."

"Today, China is one of the most powerful nations in the world; yet many of its people commit the same mistakes that the Japanese and the Germans committed in WW II. They don't see the Japanese as individuals, some of whom are good, some of whom are bad. They don't try to communicate with Japanese, or listen to what they think or say. They just say, 'We hate you because you are Japanese.'"

"Today, there are Japanese people who want to help the Chinese who've been affected by the earthquake. These Japanese people can help to save Chinese lives. If you say that you don't want them here, if you say that the Japanese rescue workers should not be allowed in, then more Chinese people will die. Japanese people want to save them...but Chinese people want to let them die?"

"China is becoming more and more a part of the international community. And as such, the people of China have a responsibility to take a more international perspective. And one of the most important aspects of that perspective is the ability to see people as individuals, and to judge them by their individual actions. There are good people in Japan, and there are bad people in Japan; just as there are good people in China, and bad people in China."

"I'm not saying these things because I believe that Chinese people are racist, or evil. I'm saying these things because I believe every one of you are individuals, capable of making your own decisions, and reaching your own conclusions. For most of your life, you've only been given one perspective to believe in, so it is not surprising that this is what you believe. But I believe that, when given new information and new perspectives, you are also capable of changing your minds, and accepting new ideas."

(The above is not word-for-word, but generally covers the main points I brought up and argued, minus a few 'ummms' and 'ahhhs' when I was thinking what to say next)

When I finished, I was ready for scathing anger and denunciations; this is a very volatile topic in China. Yet when I looked around the room, not only were people not denouncing me, or getting angry, but a few of them were actually crying. There were two people who tried to shout at me and call me names, but everyone else very quickly shut them up. Within ten minutes, they had gone from screaming their hatred of the Japanese, to feeling shame and regret over that same hatred.

Not much more was said publicly on that topic; but after the meeting finished, I had many of the participants come up to me privately and state that in their entire lives, they had never had any reason to question their hatred of the Japanese; and that what I had said had opened their eyes. Quite a few asked me specifically how they could find some Japanese people to make friends with. A large number expressed a desire to contact Rumi, and apologize for the actions of their Chinese compatriots.

Its a small thing...less than 50 people, in a nation of 1.3 billion. But it gives me hope for our new skeptical organization. That given a proper venue, and well-presented arguments, we actually can make a difference. Many of these problems are not a result of the Chinese being implicitly racist, or evil, or anything like that; it is because they've never been exposed to any other perspective, have never been challenged to consider any other view.

[Wolfman]

lol

Wow...when I start a topic that specifically asks for responses, they usually come slowly...but when I ask people to wait a short while, suddenly they can't restrain themselves!

[Tsukasa Buddha]

lol

Wow...when I start a topic that specifically asks for responses, they usually come slowly...but when I ask people to wait a short while, suddenly they can't restrain themselves!

Reverse Psychology FTW.

Good post, BTW :p .

[Pardalis]

The fact that the Japanese were the first to help never registered in their minds to water down their hatred of them? It actually fueled it?

[Wolfman]

The fact that the Japanese were the first to help never registered in their minds to water down their hatred of them? It actually fueled it?Sadly, such is the nature of hatred.

The Chinese have this general impression that the Japanese consider themselves superior to the Chinese. Letting Japanese rescue workers come in was essentially an acknowledgment that the Chinese couldn't deal with it themselves, and needed the help of the 'superior' Japanese...thus causing the Chinese to lose face.

There's nothing logical about racism; but fortunately, at least in this case, a rational perspective was able to overcome an irrational one.

[Pardalis]

It reminds me of the earthquake in Iran a few years ago. Israel offered their help and Iran refused.

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enZone=Democracy&enDispWho=Articles%5El587&enPage=BlankPage

I thought to myself how can you refuse help? :confused:

[Wolfman]

It reminds me of the earthquake in Iran a few years ago. Israel offered their help and Iran refused.

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enZone=Democracy&enDispWho=Articles%5El587&enPage=BlankPage

I thought to myself how can you refuse help? :confused:
Yup. It is tragic, but this type of thing is actually quite common, both as groups, and as individuals. I doubt there is any person here who has not refused offers of assistance from someone, simply because they didn't like that person, or felt that to accept such assistance would shame them. I know I've done it more than once.

A significant part of the reason for posting this was that recently, we've had some fairly heated discussions/debates within the forum about how we should respond to racists. Quite a few people have come out to state that they feel there should be no tolerance, that racist comments should be banned, and those who make them punished.

I disagree, and the above illustrates a large part of the reason why. Certainly, there are many racists out there whose beliefs will not be swayed by anything that we may say; but there are others who hold those beliefs simply because that's what they've been taught to believe. And who, if we engage them in intelligent discussion, can be persuaded to re-evaluate their beliefs.

Banning such conversation means only that the only places those people can discuss their beliefs is among other racists; that results only in strengthening their beliefs. And engaging in personal attacks, condemning them, only increases the barriers, and makes them less receptive to other ideas.

I could easily have simply denounced the Chinese at that meeting as racist idiots, and could even have had solid moral justification for doing so. But it would have accomplished nothing other than stroking my personal ego (and as most people here know, my ego doesn't need much more stroking, anyway). I didn't. I took their arguments, addressed each argument seriously, and then presented alternate perspectives to those arguments.

As this is likely to be an ongoing debate within the forums (one that will never really be resolved to everyone's satisfaction), I wanted to present an example of how racism can be addressed in a positive manner, and have positive results. And to argue that, while most certainly this will not always be the end result, that there are enough people who could be influenced by this to justify a continued policy of allowing racist posts...however much they may disgust us personally.

[mrbaracuda]

Nice. Don't get shot. You know, telling Chinese they're individuals, not just party inventory! You're so crazey! You little daredevil you! http://forums.mapcore.net/images/smilies/emot-arghfist.gif:D

[Rufo]

It is sad that things like these have to be said, that they is not part of the thinking process for all human beings at all times, but it is beautiful to see it said every time nevertheless.

This was a brave speech, but most of all, I have to extend my praise to the audience. I can think of many times and places where similar words would have incited only further hatred. As eye-opening as they could be, opening your eyes makes little difference if you are truly blind. To face your own prejudice and hatred requires rarely seen bravery.

I'm sure I don't actually have to say this, but treasure this experience.

[mrbaracuda]

Come to think of it; you said they've never been presented a different view point. Aren't you actively going against the party's stance and become more of a dissident you probably already are? http://forums.mapcore.net/images/smilies/emot-arghfist.gif:eek:

[Wolfman]

It is sad that things like these have to be said, that they is not part of the thinking process for all human beings at all times, but it is beautiful to see it said every time nevertheless.

This was a brave speech, but most of all, I have to extend my praise to the audience. I can think of many times and places where similar words would have incited only further hatred. As eye-opening as they could be, opening your eyes makes little difference if you are truly blind. To face your own prejudice and hatred requires rarely seen bravery.

I'm sure I don't actually have to say this, but treasure this experience.Rufo,

I agree absolutely, and I actually anticipated a great deal more anger than I actually received...I had intended it to generate debate, with the hope that I'd have at least some Chinese on my side in that debate. I was quite surprised when it turned out that pretty much everyone agreed with me...and I expect that other crowds will not be so readily swayed. It was a crowd that was there specifically out of an interest in skeptical thinking, and thus perhaps was more predisposed to listen to other viewpoints.

From a perspective of China in general, it is a tiny, miniscule event. But from the perspective of our fledgling skeptical organization, it is quite a significant event.

Next on the agenda -- tackling Traditional Chinese Medicine.

[Pardalis]

The best thing to do also to fight racism is to put people in contact with each other. If you don't know who the Japanese really are, then you're bound to keep having your own distorted impression of them.

[Wolfman]

Come to think of it; you said they've never been presented a different view point. Aren't you actively going against the party's stance and become more of a dissident you probably already are? http://forums.mapcore.net/images/smilies/emot-arghfist.gif:eek:If it was only two or three years ago, that'd be a much bigger concern. However, these days it is becoming quite acceptable to criticize the government, and many of its policies...so long as it is presented within the context that the existing government needs to improve (as opposed to overthrowing/replacing the existing government). If you were to check out Chinese forums, you'd find tons of discussion of such issues, and plentiful criticism of Chinese policy.

Its a delicate balancing act, knowing how much you can say, and how to say it. It is unfortunate that knowing how to keep that balance is necessary...but nevertheless, it is becoming easier.

And a decision was made by our skeptical organization that we would, from the beginning, push the boundaries. We're not looking to get ourselves in trouble; but neither do we want to be rendered impotent by fear of taking a stance.

[mr rosewater]

Well done, all the best!

[Ryokan]

I love you, Wolfman.

Some parts of Asia really need to get over WW2, and open their eyes and see that the Japan today is not the Japan that was.

If you were to check out Chinese forums, you'd find tons of discussion of such issues, and plentiful criticism of Chinese policy.

I seriously doubt that.

Only thing I would find are mystical hieroglyphs :D

[wollery]

Next on the agenda -- tackling Traditional Chinese Medicine.Yeah, good luck with that one. :rolleyes:

[Wolfman]

Yeah, good luck with that one. :rolleyes:Will send you a copy of my article (this will be a print article, not a speech); core message is that those who seek to defend "Chinese culture" and "Chinese tradition" (the usual arguments of those seeking to defend TCM) need to consider that most of the 5000 years of TCM history were based on critical thinking...that it constantly evolved and changed based on new discoveries and understandings of the world around them. So those who seek to prevent examination of TCM, or development of newer, more modern techniques, are the ones who are most in opposition to the core values of 'traditional Chinese culture".

I'm sure it'll engender a fair degree of debate ;)

[plumjam]

I think you neglected to tell us that when you got out to the car park someone tried to drive a tank over you.

[Wolfman]

I think you neglected to tell us that when you got out to the car park someone tried to drive a tank over you.
:D Naw...that'd be too much like trying to draw attention to myself :D

[Megalodon]

Good post, great story. Thanks for sharing, and good luck with your efforts.