Pre Columbian civilizations?

[Correa Neto]

Hello!

Any tips (non-woo, please) about non-fiction books on this subject? Yes, I know, its a broad topic... I'm specially interested in the older ones, like Olmecs.

Thanks in advance!

[Aitch]

One did get recommended in my Early(ish) American History thread:


I can highly recommend 1491 New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann.

It is very well-written and includes an extensive bibliography for further research. The author is a journalist who has consulted with experts in the field. The result is more a survey of the history of research into pre-Columbian America than an attempt at linear narrative.


But I haven't checked it out yet.

[RobRoy]

Full-disclosure: I'm not an expert, just an interested party. I will readily bow to more professional opinions as they are presented.

Places to start:

Olmec Art and Archaeology in Mesoamerica (Studies in the History of Art Series) by John E. Clark and Mary E. Pye
The Olmecs: America's First Civilization (Ancient Peoples and Places) by Richard Diehl

Wikipedia has a decent, if short, article with some nice article links that might be of assistance in pointing you in the direction you're looking.

[godless dave]

I don't know of any books, but make sure not to neglect North America. They didn't leave impressive pyramids like some of the South and Central American civilizations, but people like the Mandan and other mound builders are pretty fascinating, and their trade network spanned most of the continent. The Pueblo, of course, left some buildings to look at as well.

[I Ratant]

The Book of Mormon goes into those.

[fuelair]

Digging the Yucatan by Ann Maxtell Morris (wife of Earl Morris, of whom I will assume you have heard). They, with Jean Charlot did a two-volume work with V2 large photos/tracings/reconstructions of the paintings of the Temple of the Warriors at Chichen-Itza - preColumbian. (unfortunately, that is about $1500.00 in reasonably good shape).

[Babylon Sister]

Hello!

Any tips (non-woo, please) about non-fiction books on this subject? Yes, I know, its a broad topic... I'm specially interested in the older ones, like Olmecs.

Thanks in advance!

If you have a University near you, you can check out the library or the student bookstore. If there is a University nearby, also see what you can find out about their Archeology program. Sometimes instructors can point you to the latest research regarding your area of interest, especially if what you want to know about is what they teach!

Michael D. Coe is a world reknowned expert on the Olmec and Maya. He has several books on those cultures and you don't have to be an expert to understand them. His books are readily available on Amazon or Barnes and Nobel.

[Correa Neto]

Thank you all, good tips!

I decided to go with the Book of Mormon. Its the revealed truth, after all...

OK, on a second thought, I bought 1401. It also covers NA's mound builders, so it must talk about the Precolumbian Jewish settlers:duck:

Checking one of the local unis is not a bad idea. Still have good contacts there... I miss those times!

Will also start digging for Coe's work.

Morris & Charlot's work must be awesome, but the price tag is "just a bit" above my budget.

[RobRoy]

The Book of Mormon goes into those.

Originally, Smith envisioned the Native Americans and their Israel-born colonists as being in North America, in the New York and Great Lakes regions. However, current LDS theologians and adherents hold that the events in the Book of Mormon took place in Central and South America over a much larger scale than Smith had originally conceived.

[I Ratant]

Thank you all, good tips!

I decided to go with the Book of Mormon. Its the revealed truth, after all...

OK, on a second thought, I bought 1401. It also covers NA's mound builders, so it must talk about the Precolumbian Jewish settlers:duck:

Checking one of the local unis is not a bad idea. Still have good contacts there... I miss those times!

Will also start digging for Coe's work.

Morris & Charlot's work must be awesome, but the price tag is "just a bit" above my budget.

That's a better choice anyway. At least those civilizations left proof of their existences.
The pre-Columbian artifacts display at the Salt Lake City Museum consists of a single 3x5 card, which says..."There are no pre-Columbian artifacts linkable to the Book of Mormon".

[RobRoy]

That's a better choice anyway. At least those civilizations left proof of their existences.
The pre-Columbian artifacts display at the Salt Lake City Museum consists of a single 3x5 card, which says..."There are no pre-Columbian artifacts linkable to the Book of Mormon".

Haha! :D

Funny, but wrong. (http://www.umnh.utah.edu/pageview.aspx?menu=5782&id=19886)

I'm just defending my home state.

[Correa Neto]

The Anthropology Collections at the Utah Museum of Natural History span from 8,000 b.c.
Those heretic devil-worshipping gay atheists will burn in HELLFIRE for this!!!!!

[RobRoy]

Those heretic devil-worshipping gay atheists will burn in HELLFIRE for this!!!!!

Mormons don't have a hell.

But otherwise, you're correct. :D







Actually, driven by the perceived deep-rooted cultural/religious ties that the LDS faith has with Central and South America, they do quite a lot of sponsored anthropological and archaeological research, and have made some fascinating discoveries. Their motives are, of course, to find the various cities, peoples, and artifacts that figure prominently in The Book of Mormon.

[Correa Neto]

OK, but fundies in general do belive in HELLFIRE and are YEC...

BTW, don't they get at least a bit suspicious that something is wrong with their book when digging after digging fails to provide a single piece of evidence to back it?

[RobRoy]

OK, but fundies in general do belive in HELLFIRE and are YEC...

Yes, although the LDS (AFAIK) do not have a specific stance on YEC.

BTW, don't they get at least a bit suspicious that something is wrong with their book when digging after digging fails to provide a single piece of evidence to back it?

Some do, yes. I've heard of a couple of major members who pursued historical research in these veins, only to conclude that something is wrong. However, there is so much ambiguity, so many unanswered questions, that for the rest, it's easy to slip through.

Also, keep in mind that the BoM takes all this ambiguous history into account rather nicely. The culture was there, advanced, impressive, then fell. That could fit so many scenarios, and the fact that the original conception of the Nephites in New York has now moved to Central and South America is proof of its resilience when presented with opposing facts.

[Bikewer]

I read the above-mentioned "1491" last year. Excellent overview of the subject, with many surprising revelations.

[Gazpacho]

I read 1491, and my main takeaway was a new appreciation of Napoleon's dictum that history is a fable agreed upon. Over and over, the anthropologists' conclusions came off more as mythology than falsifiable theory. Somewhere between the description of Inca roads as "ceremonial roads," and the description of a meso-american city as "Disneyland," I gave up relying on anything in the book.

The author is not an anthropologist, and maybe he represents them poorly.

I did learn of the mere existence of many pre-Colombian civilizations that I hadn't been aware of before. Not really worth the time of reading the book, though.

[RobRoy]

I did learn of the mere existence of many pre-Colombian civilizations that I hadn't been aware of before. Not really worth the time of reading the book, though.

Could you please elaborate? I think I know what you mean, but I want to be certain.

[Gazpacho]

Could you please elaborate? I think I know what you mean, but I want to be certain.
For example, despite growing up in the southeast I had never heard of Poverty Point or the great mounds.

[RobRoy]

For example, despite growing up in the southeast I had never heard of Poverty Point or the great mounds.

Gotcha. That's what I thought. Thanks for the response.

[nzric]

Roger Atwood - Stealing history (http://www.amazon.com/Stealing-History-Raiders-Smugglers-Looting/dp/0312324065). Excellent book about Peruvian (pre-)history and a great read about the illicit trade in antiquities.

[leonAzul]

I read 1491, and my main takeaway was a new appreciation of Napoleon's dictum that history is a fable agreed upon. Over and over, the anthropologists' conclusions came off more as mythology than falsifiable theory. Somewhere between the description of Inca roads as "ceremonial roads," and the description of a meso-american city as "Disneyland," I gave up relying on anything in the book.

The author is not an anthropologist, and maybe he represents them poorly.

I did learn of the mere existence of many pre-Colombian civilizations that I hadn't been aware of before. Not really worth the time of reading the book, though.

I agree with you on how much of the "science" is presented, yet that is the very point of the book: that much of what we are taught about pre-Columbian America is little more than apologetics, and that recent more rigorous examination of what evidence still remains reveals a very different picture from what little is being taught. I was rather confused, at first, until I sussed out the author's agenda.

If one reads this book critically as a survey of theories--good, bad, or just plain cracked pot--it is worth the time to read it, if only as a point of departure for further research. If one is looking for a definitive text on the matter, then this is not the book for you, nor does it claim to be. As the author notes, the lack of such a definitive text is what motivated him to write this in the first place.

[Gazpacho]

I agree with you on how much of the "science" is presented, yet that is the very point of the book: that much of what we are taught about pre-Columbian America is little more than apologetics, and that recent more rigorous examination of what evidence still remains reveals a very different picture from what little is being taught. I was rather confused, at first, until I sussed out the author's agenda.
But the "different picture," in my opinion, was itself often just as disrespectful to the humanity of the various peoples, and no less a reflection of the researcher's prejudices.

I no longer have the book, so I'm not really in a position to go into more details.

[Bikewer]

I found much of interest in 1491. The sheer impact of the arrival of Western peoples on Native Americans, for instance. (research indicating that the death toll over 200 years from first contact may be as high as 9 out of 10 people on the continent.)

The density of population in the Amazon basin, sustained by considerable agriculture made possible by soil techniques that are just now being exploited today. (Science Friday just had a segment on this; using charcoal for soil enrichment)
As a book geared to the layman to provide an overview of research, I thought it succeeded nicely.

[Correa Neto]

I'm about 1/4 to 1/3 of the book right now.

So far its been an interesting read with several details about the early interactions between European settlers and natives in NA which I was not aware of (and some which I only suspected about).

Also, the info on cultures from Amazonia (terrace-builders, Santarém and Marajoara) was very welcome. Years ago I heard news about the discovery of artificial terraces at the western part of Brazilian Amazon jungle. The early evidence seemed to point to an unknown Pre Columbian civilization. Since I never managed to find any follow-up on this, I assumed it was some sort of a blunder. I was a very pleasant surprise.