I pray for you

[blauregen]

Noo, I don't. Since I don't believe in gods praying is bound to be without consequence, and I can simply wish you well with less risk to offend to.

But what I am wondering is what exactly offends you if this phrase is used on you?

In a normal tonality i would read it as 'I will try to influence my deity on your behalf', which from my point of view is simply a complicated method of conveying the persons good wishes to me. 'Why? Thank you.':)

I can imagine a condescending version.

spoken with a frown: 'I pray for you'
continued unspoken: 'that the Lord will forgive you wretched, ingrateful and unrepenetant sinner who refuses to acknowledge his grace and glory.

That wouldn't be very friendly, but as long as the unspoken part stays unspoken it is sufficiently polite to not offend me. Since i still hold it to be inconsequential, I would likely beam at the person and respond with 'That's nice.' :D

So what is it, that is specifically offensive to you if someone states to pray for you? The condescendence? The audacity to apply a religious term to you? Something completely different?

[DeusPhasmatis]

Noo, I don't. Since I don't believe in gods praying is bound to be without consequence, and I can simply wish you well with less risk to offend to.

But what I am wondering is what exactly offends you if this phrase is used on you?

In a normal tonality i would read it as 'I will try to influence my deity on your behalf', which from my point of view is simply a complicated method of conveying the persons good wishes to me. 'Why? Thank you.':)

I can imagine a condescending version.

spoken with a frown: 'I pray for you'
continued unspoken: 'that the Lord will forgive you wretched, ingrateful and unrepenetant sinner who refuses to acknowledge his grace and glory.

That wouldn't be very friendly, but as long as the unspoken part stays unspoken it is sufficiently polite to not offend me. Since i still hold it to be inconsequential, I would likely beam at the person and respond with 'That's nice.' :D

So what is it, that is specifically offensive to you if someone states to pray for you? The condescendence? The audacity to apply a religious term to you? Something completely different?

It offends atheists in the same way "you are mistaken about the existence of God" offends theists, since that is exactly what they are saying.

[blauregen]

It offends atheists in the same way "you are mistaken about the existence of God" offends theists, since that is exactly what they are saying.

I try to wrap my head around this. As what i think is called a pragmatic atheist, the existence or non-existence of deities is only of academic interrest to me, but yes it is conceivable that an atheist might have a similar emotional investment in her atheism than a theist in her theism.

Thank you for the hint.

[DeusPhasmatis]

It is offensive because it is paraphrase for "you are wrong". In fact, the main case where "I pray for you" is used is "you are wrong and I hope you can get past your stubbornness". It is insulting, even with the best of intentions. The intent is that the atheist should change their belief. Of course it's offensive when someone says "you are wrong"!

[paximperium]

It doesn't really offend me unless it was specifically meant to be condescending. If it was meant to be nothing more than, "I REALLY hope that you're well", I see no problem with it.

Unfortunately praying is doing a whole lot of nothing to seem like you're doing something.

[Rufo]

I suspect it's a behavior picked up from the religious. Devout believers in one religion may be offended when included - even just in thought, and even with good intent - in rituals by other religions. I presume this is because they consider those rituals an affront to their own 'true' faith, and atheists similarly consider religious rituals an affront to reason.

Personally, I think atheists shouldn't engage in imitating the traditional religious way of taking offense at every expression of feelings that doesn't fit with their own worldview. It only reinforces the "Atheism is a religion" myth and makes everyone involved more miserable. Atheists have the opportunity to not take the whole thing so seriously - more like being included in a letter to Santa - and should treasure it.

[Dysphemist]

I don't see the term "I pray for you" used by a theist offensive at all... depending on how and when it is used. Of course one is to be offended if someone says it condescendingly; though people can supress their annoyance or give it back. Used in a genuinely kind way though, the term can be a sign of sympathy (not in the sense of religion), empathy... I guess a lot of things.

Theres alot of things that people can say that can mean very different things depending on how they're said it.


Atheist views aside, if someone offers you a show of kindness or that they can understand or are trying to, isn't it polite to accept it, and not spit it back in their face?

[Marquis de Carabas]

It offends atheists me in the same way "you are mistaken about the existence of God" offends theists, since that is exactly what they are saying.
Corrected. It offends me when people presume to speak for me.

[Empress]

One of my brothers died in March, and many people told me that they were keeping me in their prayers. I appreciated it, as it just a way of telling me they were sorry for my loss.

On the other hand, I've had people tell me "I'll pray for you" after finding out that I'm an atheist. I admit I find that irritating, and my usual response is something like "Have fun."

[JoeEllison]

When someone doesn't know I'm an atheist but they know that I'm having some sort of trouble, or there's an issue with my family, and they are expressing their concern by saying that they'll pray for me there's nothing offensive about that.

When someone pulls out the "I'll pray for you" as the trump card in their attack on me because I'm an atheist then of course it is offensive. It is offensive because it is meant to be offensive.

[fls]

To be honest, I'm never really quite sure whether it demonstrates tact and sensitivity, or cowardice, when I simply let things slide. It comforts me to know that others are willing to make people uncomfortable on my behalf, so I don't have to decide.

Linda

[Darth Rotor]

Corrected. It offends me when people presume to speak for me.
I'll pray for you. :cool:

[Freethinker]

I was once approached at an airport by two women who wanted to tell me "the good news about Jesus Christ.". I flippantly said I was a Satan worshiper and wasn't interested. One of them said "I'll pray for you.". I responded with "I'll pity you."

I consider both statements about equal in civility.

[Darth Rotor]

I was once approached at an airport by two women who wanted to tell me "the good news about Jesus Christ.". I flippantly said I was a Satan worshiper and wasn't interested. One of them said "I'll pray for you.". I responded with "I'll pity you."

I consider both statements about equal in civility.
From my nastier days, a nicely packaged comeback to that, which I only used twice and both times got the double take I was after, is

"Well, while you are on your knees, there is something you can do for me . . . "

Bound to get you taken off the Christmas Card list. I'm not that nasty anymore. Really. Why are you looking at me like that? :confused:

Thought: When the "I'll pray for you" is used in a condescending fashion, I think the spirit of the message is being betrayed.

My two cents.

[Beerina]

Here's my position:

Even in the event a god similar to what you commonly believe exists, I do not want you praying for me. I want this savage god thingie to cast me into Hell because I refuse to believe in it, or if it does exist, refuse to worship it.

A little while ago, an Iraqi family had their 12 year old son kidnapped. After paying the ransom, they found him dead. He had been tortured, then executed.

What kind of god sits around and lets that happen? Even if it exists, I will have nothing to do with it.

So please, don't pray for me. Instead, as you sit there in Heaven and watch me being cast into Hell, praise your god for doing the "right" thing.

Then say to God, "Oh yeah, God, I also praise you for letting that man rape his 8 day old baby to death."

Please do that for me. It's all I ask.

[bellonax]

Along a similar line to what Beerina said, it's offensive because they're implying that if they don't pray for you, you'll go to Hell. And since they believe that rapists and murderers etc, all go to Hell, the fact that they believe I deserve to be there with them is offensive.

That and it's so smug.

[learner]

Answer; Please don't waste your time praying for me, Pray for all the children in the world starving to death as god watches. You may get him/her off his/her backside and do something about it. On second thoughts, don't bother, we know its not going to work, don't we?

[Rasmus]

It doesn't really offend me unless it was specifically meant to be condescending. If it was meant to be nothing more than, "I REALLY hope that you're well", I see no problem with it.

Unfortunately praying is doing a whole lot of nothing to seem like you're doing something.

Hence, I usually offer words to the effect of "If you need to talk, or if there's anything i can do ..."

[Hokulele]

I would rather they buy me a beer.

[bobcarp]

I usually hear the phrase "I'll pray for you" when the person I am having a discussion about the existence of gods is unable to respond logically to my argument. It is a tool the believer uses to give the persona that they are loving and caring person, and will try to help the non-believer become aware of the existence of god, without having to present any valid arguments to contradict my argument.

When a person says “I’ll pray for you” to me, I usually follow it up with, “And I’ll be sure to through a couple of coins in a fountain and wish you the best of luck for you.” Of course, now they’re offended.

When I ask “What’s the difference between praying to an invisible god and throwing coins into a wishing well”, they usually again say, “I’ll pray for you”, again evading the question by presenting themselves with a favorable persona as a caring person.

[pastime]

That and it's so smug.

Smug is a good word for it. When my son was in the US Army serving in Iraq, I didn't tell anybody at work about it for the very reason that I didn't want people "praying" for him. The thought that people who don't even know my son might do that when it wasn't going to have any effect except to make themselves feel better was abhorrent to me.
Would it have offended me? Probably not, but it would have disgusted me.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Answer; Please don't waste your time praying for me, Pray for all the children in the world starving to death as god watches. You may get him/her off his/her backside and do something about it. On second thoughts, don't bother, we know its not going to work, don't we?

You really don't understand, do you?

God allows all those people to starve to test and motivate us to help them. In a similar way, God creates tidal waves to motivate us to, um, build better coastal defences. Anyhow, dead people are the lucky ones; all their suffering has given them extra reward in heaven.

I pray for you.

-------

Generally I just let peoples' religious nonsense pass unless they're making claims or being particularly pious.

[negativ]

My parents were certainly not atheists, but they were not especially devout doctrinaire types, either. We moved to a new city when I was in my early teens, and the self-appointed, one-woman neighborhood welcoming committee immediately swooped in and began the ceaseless process of "inviting" us to her church.

Eventually, my dad became terminally ill, and he spent lots of time hospitalized. My mother worked full-time, and my dad needed pretty much constant care. He was on CAPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peritoneal_dialysis), and while he was relatively self-sufficient once he was in his wheelchair, he was very frail and lacked the strength to get himself into and out of it on his own. Professional home health care was not financially viable, so while my mother was at work it was up to 15 year-old me and my 89 year-old grandmother to take care of him.

Naturally, ChurchNeighbor decided she was going to HELP. The way she decided to help was by suggesting to her church that the members PRAY for my dad each Sunday as part of the service. I remember the day she came over to tell us this wonderful news; it had been a particularly bad day for my dad and nobody was in the mood for her.

I distinctly remember it flashing on me, "wow, so this is what 'offended' feels like." From my point of view, we needed real, tangible help that didn't cost anyone anything other than some time and some minimal effort. How about getting your kids to come and mow our yard once in a while? How about if you make a run to the grocery store for us? We're buying. Maybe you could drive my dad & grandmother to a park one afternoon so they could look at something besides walls and TV. It just really pissed me off that they could get 200 people to pretend they were actually having a positive impact, as if things would be EVEN WORSE if they weren't all huddled in there sending telepathic messages to influence the hand of god... but between them they couldn't come up with maybe an hour a week to use their OWN hands to do something that really would help.

Side note: Lest anyone draw faulty conclusions, I was already very agnostic before all that. I would have considered myself a Deist, if that. So it isn't as though this traumatized me away from religion.

So anyway, yeah. "I'll pray for you" can be somewhat offensive to me, but it depends entirely on the context. It's about like wearing those insufferable "awareness" ribbons and wristbands (http://www.personalizedcause.com/) and pretending that buying things helps someone in need. Slightly less tacky, perhaps.

[H3LL]

It as rarely, if ever, said to me as a kindness.

So usual response is:

Religious Person: "I'll pray for you!"
Me: "Why thank you. I'll reason for you."

Arrogant and insulting on so many levels.

On the plus side - Few people speak to me - So it's a win-win.

:D

.

[MarcoPolo]

It might be horrible, but a recent neighbor of mine was having some problems and they had to move out of their house and in with a friend. I knew she was a devout Christian and when I unexpectedly ran into her, I got a little flustered about what to say so I said the only thing I thought would bring her comfort. "I'll pray for you."

She seemed to liked the comment so I just went with it.

Obviously I didn't pray for her, but it seems that the only reason for ever saying it is to make the person feel better.

[alfaniner]

I would rather they buy me a beer.

Then the phrase would be " I'll pay for you." I doubt many would argue with that sentiment.

[slingblade]

Noo, I don't. Since I don't believe in gods praying is bound to be without consequence, and I can simply wish you well with less risk to offend to.

But what I am wondering is what exactly offends you if this phrase is used on you?


Sometimes, nothing about it offends me. Sometimes, people just want to help, but there isn't really anything they can do. So, out of love and their beliefs, they offer to pray. There's nothing wrong with that, aside from it not doing any good. But there's at least love behind it. That's nice. :)

Other times, though, it really makes me angry, not so much offended.

1. When they use it as a weapon to hurt your feelings. When the person saying it is clearly implying to you that if you were a better person, or a believer like he is, he (or she) wouldn't have to pray for you--your life wouldn't be in such a mess; you wouldn't be having these problems if only you believed.

2. When something tangible could be done to help, such as a job, a meal, some medicine, and so forth, and the person offering to pray could certainly do that, but instead, they offer to mumble a few words that will make them feel better, and as if they've actually done something. In reality, they've done nothing at all. But don't they look holy and upstanding!

That's when it bugs me.

[DeusPhasmatis]

Corrected. It offends me when people presume to speak for me.

I need to clarify; I'm speaking specifically of the "Oh, you're an atheist. I'll pray for you." variety. Do you still disagree?

[Nim Chimpsky]

This topic brings back uncomfortable memories of my 10 yr marriage to a converted crazed catholic.

Toward the end, the arguments about god and such were very vitriolic compared to those around her conversion 4 years prior. At that time, it was more or less somewhat civil discourse and I never really 100% confessed my atheism up until a year or so before we split.

Once we got to that point, she would end nearly every argument with the "I will pray for you" defense (see bobcarp's explanation above). At first I just laughed it off and moved on.

Eventually, I did see the condescension and began taking it as an insult. What I did was SPECIFICALLY ask her to NOT pray for me. My reasoning was:

Me: I don't believe in god
If there IS a god, he already knows how I feel, prayer won't help

Her: There is a god and he will listen.

Me; by saying that you will pray for me, you are saying that you care about me? is that correct?

Her: yes of course

Me: If you REALLY care about me you would do as I ask.

Her: yeah, well, uhm.....I'll pray anyway

Me: OK then, so you're praying for yourself and not me?

Her: head explodes



I've actually handled it this way a couple of times in other situations. It's very funny to watch their expression when you ask them not to and explain why.

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Me: OK then, so you're praying for yourself and not me?

<snip>

What actions/words do you perform/utter that aren't ultimately for your own physical or psychological benefit?

I think this is one of the great bonuses of religious belief: It provides a low-cost method of salving the individual's conscience. Atheists either have to actually do something or just put up with suffering.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I don't find it to be too bad. They are practicing being compassionate, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Of course, that is unless they are being condescending or praying to the exclusion of doing something more effective.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I need to clarify; I'm speaking specifically of the "Oh, you're an atheist. I'll pray for you." variety. Do you still disagree?
Whether I disagree or not is beside the point. Whatever you are speaking specifically of, I would thank you to speak of how it makes you feel, rather than how it makes atheists feel. Even where we may agree, I would prefer to express my thoughts myself, rather than being included because of some superficial (non-)belief we happen to share.

As to your question (so as not to be accused of dodging it), I would still not be offended. I would interpret them to mean that they wish by their prayer to have their god sway my heart to belief, thereby sparing me an eternity of torment. Even though I think the whole idea is bat**** insane, I must admit it's good to know someone wishes to save me from eternal suffering. It's a nice, if empty, gesture.

[juryjone]

Noo, I don't. Since I don't believe in gods praying is bound to be without consequence, and I can simply wish you well with less risk to offend to.

But what I am wondering is what exactly offends you if this phrase is used on you?

In a normal tonality i would read it as 'I will try to influence my deity on your behalf', which from my point of view is simply a complicated method of conveying the persons good wishes to me. 'Why? Thank you.':)

I can imagine a condescending version.

spoken with a frown: 'I pray for you'
continued unspoken: 'that the Lord will forgive you wretched, ingrateful and unrepenetant sinner who refuses to acknowledge his grace and glory.

That wouldn't be very friendly, but as long as the unspoken part stays unspoken it is sufficiently polite to not offend me. Since i still hold it to be inconsequential, I would likely beam at the person and respond with 'That's nice.' :D


Let me take a shot at this. Do you think it's possible that the statement "That's nice" with a big grin could be meant condescendingly, in a go-play-in-the-sandbox-the-grownups-are-busy kind of way? If so, then do you think the same statement could be taken as condescending, even though the intent was not there?

"I'll pray for you" is like that, only moreso.

BTW, I am much more able to handle "I'll remember you in my prayers". It's much more casual. "I'm on the phone anyway, so I'll mention it." It's not like they're going out of the way to take a specific "action" that you are unwilling to do yourself.

[DeusPhasmatis]

Whether I disagree or not is beside the point. Whatever you are speaking specifically of, I would thank you to speak of how it makes you feel, rather than how it makes atheists feel. Even where we may agree, I would prefer to express my thoughts myself, rather than being included because of some superficial (non-)belief we happen to share.

Then I must point out that lacking an absolute qualifier, one can plainly infer from the statement that I am speaking specifically in regards to atheists who are, in fact, offended by the line "I'll pray for you". If this is not clear, it should be easily solved with a clarification. So to clarify, my comment was on behalf of the atheists who are offended. And yes, I will speak on their behalf. If they disagree with what I say, then they can say so.

In addition, the general case does not exclude exceptions. I will not play semantic games for Political Correctness. You are perfectly capable of expressing your thoughts despite what I say. I do not have make an exception for each of the six billion people on this planet. The language does not make it accessible, and it should not be necessary.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Then I must point out that lacking an absolute qualifier, one can plainly infer from the statement that I am speaking specifically in regards to atheists who are, in fact, offended by the line "I'll pray for you". If this is not clear, it should be easily solved with a clarification. So to clarify, my comment was on behalf of the atheists who are offended. And yes, I will speak on their behalf. If they disagree with what I say, then they can say so.

In addition, the general case does not exclude exceptions. I will not play semantic games for Political Correctness. You are perfectly capable of expressing your thoughts despite what I say. I do not have make an exception for each of the six billion people on this planet. The language does not make it accessible, and it should not be necessary.
You could have saved a lot of typing by just saying But I AM a presumptive twat, so that's OK.

[Silentknight]

Even though I think the whole idea is bat**** insane, I must admit it's good to know someone wishes to save me from eternal suffering. It's a nice, if empty, gesture.

Oh absolutely. By barely even lifting a finger and merely talking to themselves because it makes them feel good, they get to take credit for saving you from the worst fate imaginable, which of course was imposed on you by the very entity they are praying to in order to save you. People who say they'll pray for you are the real unsung heroes in this world. You should be more appreciative. :rolleyes:

[Marquis de Carabas]

Oh absolutely. By barely even lifting a finger and merely talking to themselves because it makes them feel good, they get to take credit for saving you from the worst fate imaginable, which of course was imposed on you by the very entity they are praying to in order to save you. People who say they'll pray for you are the real unsung heroes in this world. You should be more appreciative. :rolleyes:
I see no reason to be appreciative, but there are a whole range of reactions between appreciative and offended, and I simply do not feel the latter.

[DeusPhasmatis]

You could have saved a lot of typing by just saying But I AM a presumptive twat, so that's OK.

And you could have saved us both the trouble and said your piece and left me alone. That you resort to an ad hominem is telling, indeed.

[Marquis de Carabas]

And you could have saved us both the trouble and said your piece and left me alone. That you resort to an ad hominum is telling, indeed.
[sigh]

First, learn to spell ad hominem; once so armed, look it up, so you will know what one is. Here's a hint: it's not my previous post.

[DeusPhasmatis]

[sigh]

First, learn to spell ad hominem; once so armed, look it up, so you will know what one is. Here's a hint: it's not my previous post.

I understand the meaning quite well. You made a comment towards my character, as opposed to my argument. That is the very definition of ad hominem. Thank you for correcting my spelling error.

[Hokulele]

[sigh]

First, learn to spell ad hominem; once so armed, look it up, so you will know what one is. Here's a hint: it's not my previous post.


When I see you next week, I'll pay for you.

[Hokulele]

I understand the meaning quite well. You made a comment towards my character, as opposed to my argument. That is the very definition of ad hominem. Thank you for correcting my spelling error.


No, that is the very definition of an insult, not an ad hominem.

[Macoy]

My Independent God Adviser assures me that as long as I maintain my agreed regular payment, all additional prayers will be credited against my capital.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I understand the meaning quite well. You made a comment towards my character, as opposed to my argument. That is the very definition of ad hominem. Thank you for correcting my spelling error.
Strictly, it is an ad hominem if I use an attack on your character to discredit your argument. If I were to have said, You are a presumptive twat, which makes you wrong, we would have a decent ad hom to deal with. As it is, we merely have an implied insult.

[Marquis de Carabas]

When I see you next week, I'll pay for you.
You're seeing me next week?

[Hokulele]

You're seeing me next week?


I thought you were going to be at TAM. Crap. Ass u me.

Take a rain check for the next time I am in Houston.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I thought you were going to be at TAM. Crap. Ass u me.

Take a rain check for the next time I am in Houston.
Damn. I thought you meant you were coming to Houston. Yeah, no TAM for me this year. [sigh]

At least it means I don't have to buy a bunch of beers for people in certain t-shirts.

[Hokulele]

Damn. I thought you meant you were coming to Houston. Yeah, no TAM for me this year. [sigh]


I'll play for you.

[DeusPhasmatis]

No, that is the very definition of an insult, not an ad hominem.

An ad hominem is an insult used in place of an argument. No more and no less.

Strictly, it is an ad hominem if I use an attack on your character to discredit your argument. If I were to have said, You are a presumptive twat, which makes you wrong, we would have a decent ad hom to deal with. As it is, we merely have an implied insult.

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject." from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

One doesn't need to attempt to discredit another's argument to be performing an ad hominem. One simply needs to be avoiding the argument by attacking the other's character. Whether or not one makes an unconnected claim of the falseness of the other's claims is secondary. The intent in both situations is the same; to bypass the discussion at hand by insulting the opponent.

[I Ratant]

I just say 'Thank you", and move on.

[Marquis de Carabas]

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject." from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

Oh yay! Now we can play ad linkum.

...if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument.

Source (http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html)

En garde!.

And here I thought you didn't like semantic games...

[Piscivore]

So what is it, that is specifically offensive to you if someone states to pray for you? The condescendence? The audacity to apply a religious term to you? Something completely different?

It does not offend me in any sense. I'm simply amused whenever someone intends to condescend to me, tries to insult me, or wants to hurt my feelings. Each time I've just said, "Okay", and smiled.

[Marquis de Carabas]

It does not offend me in any sense. I'm simply amused whenever someone intends to condescend to me, tries to insult me, or wants to hurt my feelings. Each time I've just said, "Okay", and smiled.
But what if someone said I'll prey for you and stole all your seafood?

[Showmeproof]

If someone finds out I am an atheist and tells me they are going to pray for my soul, I might come back with a slightly snide remark. On the other hand, my 90 year old grandma does not know I am an atheist, but whenever I get off the phone with her, she always says she will pray for me. I dont respond with "hey grandma, you are an idiot! Their is no god so dont pray for me." So obviously it depends on the person and why they are saying it.

[Nim Chimpsky]

What actions/words do you perform/utter that aren't ultimately for your own physical or psychological benefit?

I think this is one of the great bonuses of religious belief: It provides a low-cost method of salving the individual's conscience. Atheists either have to actually do something or just put up with suffering.

Again, I have to thank another person for a painful flashback. Trying to show her exactly how ALL of her religious actions were self-serving was futile at best. They think of themselves as THE most unselfish givers yet are really nothing but a bunch of self-serving hypocrites.

It does not offend me in any sense. I'm simply amused whenever someone intends to condescend to me, tries to insult me, or wants to hurt my feelings. Each time I've just said, "Okay", and smiled.

In the context of a stranger saying something like this, yes I have to agree. But when it is someone that you are closely associated with and they do it with malice, I have a hard time shutting up.

If someone finds out I am an atheist and tells me they are going to pray for my soul, I might come back with a slightly snide remark. On the other hand, my 90 year old grandma does not know I am an atheist, but whenever I get off the phone with her, she always says she will pray for me. I dont respond with "hey grandma, you are an idiot! Their is no god so dont pray for me." So obviously it depends on the person and why they are saying it.

Couldn't agree more. I have the same situation with my mom. She just thinks I am a "lapsed catholic" and will someday come back. She's in total denial that I'm atheist even though I've told her. As I said in another thread, I think I have been mentioned by name for several years in some church when they some petitionary prayers or something. Meh.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I find that people are too easily offended by too wide a variety of things that matter too damn little.

The intent behind the words, "I'll pray for you", has little/no relevance if you're really not theistic: nonsense is nonsense.

Why subvert your own values and lend any substantial weight to the meaning of others when you supposedly don't see any value in their beliefs?

I almost never hear these words aimed at me, but when issued with kindness, I reply, "thank you for the thought"; when issued with contempt, my reply (like the mad fish eater) is simply a flat "OK" in order to rob the issuer of their intended offense.
;)

[Beanbag]

Depends on the person. If I'm chapped at the person, a good snide comeback is, "Yeah, it's the least you can do."

Beanbag

[Skeptic Ginger]

Noo, I don't. Since I don't believe in gods praying is bound to be without consequence, and I can simply wish you well with less risk to offend to.

But what I am wondering is what exactly offends you if this phrase is used on you?

In a normal tonality i would read it as 'I will try to influence my deity on your behalf', which from my point of view is simply a complicated method of conveying the persons good wishes to me. 'Why? Thank you.':)

I can imagine a condescending version.

spoken with a frown: 'I pray for you'
continued unspoken: 'that the Lord will forgive you wretched, ingrateful and unrepenetant sinner who refuses to acknowledge his grace and glory.

That wouldn't be very friendly, but as long as the unspoken part stays unspoken it is sufficiently polite to not offend me. Since i still hold it to be inconsequential, I would likely beam at the person and respond with 'That's nice.' :D

So what is it, that is specifically offensive to you if someone states to pray for you? The condescendence? The audacity to apply a religious term to you? Something completely different?This depends entirely on the context with which it is used.

There may be some atheists complaining they are not going to let these kind of comments go unprotested. I don't think that is the same as saying one is offended.

It can be said in any number of offensive ways, such as implying one is praying you are saved because whatever you are doing now is some sin that you should rot in hell because of.

But I can't imagine if it is said in a similar context of "God bless you" that very many atheists would be offended.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I find that people are too easily offended by too wide a variety of things that matter too damn little.

The intent behind the words, "I'll pray for you", has little/no relevance if you're really not theistic: nonsense is nonsense.

Why subvert your own values and lend any substantial weight to the meaning of others when you supposedly don't see any value in their beliefs?

I almost never hear these words aimed at me, but when issued with kindness, I reply, "thank you for the thought"; when issued with contempt, my reply (like the mad fish eater) is simply a flat "OK" in order to rob the issuer of their intended offense.
;)
So you don't think the implication when this is used in some contexts that you deserve to go to hell is offensive? I'll pray for your soul says exactly that.

I think one reason you don't think the "I'll pray for you" comment through to its natural consequence, "If I don't pray for you, you will go to hell", is because many Christians don't recognize that atrocious belief embedded in their religion themselves. Think about it, God is Love, the Christian god is a loving god, yadda, yadda, you hear it over and over. It's like the punishment for not worshiping the Biblical god creates a cognitive dissonance that results in that part of the story just never rising to the surface of consciousness.

[Skeptic Ginger]

To be honest, I'm never really quite sure whether it demonstrates tact and sensitivity, or cowardice, when I simply let things slide. It comforts me to know that others are willing to make people uncomfortable on my behalf, so I don't have to decide.

LindaHappy to oblige. ;)

[Skeptic Ginger]

I was once approached at an airport by two women who wanted to tell me "the good news about Jesus Christ.". I flippantly said I was a Satan worshiper and wasn't interested. ....I tell them it is a disgusting god they worship and quote the scriptures. It's quite mean but I do back up my claims with the facts.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Answer; Please don't waste your time praying for me, Pray for all the children in the world starving to death as god watches. You may get him/her off his/her backside and do something about it. On second thoughts, don't bother, we know its not going to work, don't we?Not a bad idea. I think I could leave the "don't waste your time" off and just say, how about praying for all the people God has [:rule10]ed over, I'm doing OK?

[JoeEllison]

You could always say "good, and while you're doing that, I'm going to pick up some hookers and coke!"

[blauregen]

There may be some atheists complaining they are not going to let these kind of comments go unprotested. I don't think that is the same as saying one is offended.

Yes i agree. This is an important distinction, and after reading up a little bit on the brights/skeptics-movement and their goals from Dawkins, Dennet and a few wired-articles, i can see why protesting even a well-meant blessing would be faithful to the doctrine.

Reading the last few discussions was enlightening for me. Thank you all.

[ParanoidAndroid]

So you don't think the implication when this is used in some contexts that you deserve to go to hell is offensive? I'll pray for your soul says exactly that.


...assuming that the implication you state is valid/intended (which in at least some cases is a big assumption) there still exists a problem...

Personally? I don't see what bearing that implication has on my existence or eventuality given that I comprehend no personal pertinence, relevance or validity to god or religion.

I think one reason you don't think the "I'll pray for you" comment through to its natural consequence, "If I don't pray for you, you will go to hell", is because many Christians don't recognize that atrocious belief embedded in their religion themselves...


Did you mean to say "I think one reason some don't think the "I'll pray...", because I don't fail to see this possible implication, though, it seems dishonest to assert that this IS the NATURAL implication.

...Think about it, God is Love, the Christian god is a loving god, yadda, yadda, you hear it over and over. It's like the punishment for not worshiping the Biblical god creates a cognitive dissonance that results in that part of the story just never rising to the surface of consciousness.


Again, I fail to see any real import if you truly don't believe.

Take offense if you must.

[Piscivore]

But what if someone said I'll prey for you and stole all your seafood?

They'll have to be punished, as an example for the others. But I won't be offended. It's flattering in fact- I have the best seafood, of course others want to take it.

[ParanoidAndroid]

They'll have to be punished, as an example for the others. But I won't be offended. It's flattering in fact- I have the best seafood, of course others want to take it.


I admire your mix of "the fish bowl is half full" perspective and demonstrative punishment/preventative justice...It suits you.
:D

[DoubtingStephen]

Since prayer is the least effective thing anyone can do about anything, I certainly never feel threatened or harmed. People have even told me that they would pray for me to develop AIDS, or they would pray that I would die, but these threats are not even as bad as calling me names. Besides, I will die. And I don't care what people call me, because I have heard it all before, more than once.

Of course the vast majority of the time when someone says they will pray for me they are really trying to convey good intentions, not malice. Maybe they are praying for something I don't especially want, but their intentions are good.

Most of the people who are afflicted with religious delusions are good and decent people, just as most people not afflicted with religious delusions are also good and decent. So I usually just say thank you and nothing else.

Unless they come to my door to pray for me, I tell those people to get off my property immediately.

In the final analysis though, nothing fails like prayer.

[learner]

You really don't understand, do you?

God allows all those people to starve to test and motivate us to help them. In a similar way, God creates tidal waves to motivate us to, um, build better coastal defences. Anyhow, dead people are the lucky ones; all their suffering has given them extra reward in heaven.

I pray for you.

-------

Generally I just let peoples' religious nonsense pass unless they're making claims or being particularly pious.
And il pray for you..Sorted! :D

[learner]

Not a bad idea. I think I could leave the "don't waste your time" off and just say, how about praying for all the people God has [:rule10]ed over, I'm doing OK?

Thanks for the advise. I am all for being concise. Leaves my auto response some room for profanities now. I like! :D

[MetalSeagull]

One of my brothers died in March, and many people told me that they were keeping me in their prayers. I appreciated it, as it just a way of telling me they were sorry for my loss.

On the other hand, I've had people tell me "I'll pray for you" after finding out that I'm an atheist. I admit I find that irritating, and my usual response is something like "Have fun."

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.


In those circumstances "I'll pray for you" is akin to "I'm thinking of you" and well meant. But when its said in condescension, my response is similar to yours, "You enjoy that."

[-Fran-]

It is offensive because it is paraphrase for "you are wrong". In fact, the main case where "I pray for you" is used is "you are wrong and I hope you can get past your stubbornness". It is insulting, even with the best of intentions. The intent is that the atheist should change their belief. Of course it's offensive when someone says "you are wrong"!

I agree. For me, the few times this has happened to me I have got the disctinct feeling of being treated like a small kid who really doesn't understand anything. It's a way to pat me on the head, and saying. "Oh Dear, how ignorant and naïve you are who do not believe in god, but one day you will sure become as enlightened as I am." I don't think you have to have an emotional investment in your atheism to be annoyed with that kind of attitude.

ETA:
That's how I feel when people wants to pray for me because I am an atheist, I would feel less so if someone wanted to pray to me as a sincere well-wish in a tough situation. I would still think it's total nonsense, but I would appreciate that someone cared. But that has never happened to me actually.

[Dysphemist]

It is offensive because it is paraphrase for "you are wrong". In fact, the main case where "I pray for you" is used is "you are wrong and I hope you can get past your stubbornness". It is insulting, even with the best of intentions. The intent is that the atheist should change their belief. Of course it's offensive when someone says "you are wrong"!

I completely dissagree. I don't think the term is usually meant to be insulting at all... Though I come from Australia; things may be different in the US...

[Ladewig]

After reading this thread, I've decided the next time I get one of those condescending versions, I'll respond with, "Please don't do that. Matthew 6:7-9 explicitly tells you to not do that."


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye:

[Piscivore]

I admire your mix of "the fish bowl is half full" perspective and demonstrative punishment/preventative justice...It suits you.
:D


Thank you. Now step away from the mackarel.

[DeusPhasmatis]

I completely dissagree. I don't think the term is usually meant to be insulting at all... Though I come from Australia; things may be different in the US...

See:
I need to clarify; I'm speaking specifically of the "Oh, you're an atheist. I'll pray for you." variety. Do you still disagree?

________________

Oh yay! Now we can play ad linkum.

I simply followed your advice and posted my findings. You can't fault me for that!

Source (http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html)

To paraphrase: "I wasn't making an ad hominem, I was being a jerk."

Oh, I guess you can fault me for following your advice... :p

En garde!.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2528548528d106ec61.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12542)

And here I thought you didn't like semantic games...

I don't. :boxedin:

[ParanoidAndroid]

Thank you. Now step away from the mackarel.


Well, will you look at that! I hardly even realized I had grabbed it...honest mistake...no harm no foul, right?

Are you going to eat that sole? If so, I'll pray for you; if not I'll take it...

[Marquis de Carabas]

I simply followed your advice and posted my findings. You can't fault me for that!
I don't fault you for that. I just realise that we could probably both find an essentially unlimited number of sources to back up our own positions on what is and is not an ad hominem. I fault the freemasons for that.

I'll even concede that the looser definition of ad hominem you have endorsed (if you recall, I did say strictly in reference to my own) is a fairly prevalent one. I suppose as a descriptivist, I should be more accepting of it. Alas, it still bugs me, some holdover from the damnable prescriptivist primary schooling of my youth.

Be that as it may, I was not attempting to discredit your argument; I was paraphrasing for you, much as you have done for me here...

To paraphrase: "I wasn't making an ad hominem, I was being a jerk."
Actually, far from being a jerk, I was exercising a supreme amount of consideration. I had originally planned to reply to this...

I do not have make an exception for each of the six billion people on this planet.

...by pointing out that I did not want you to make billions of exceptions, but that I wished you would speak of yourself personally, i.e. never to include everyone else to begin with. I then realised, of course, that you may very well counter that speaking only of oneself is making a de facto exception for all those billions. It would have been a semantic point, and I knew you wished to avoid those, so, unfailingly polite person that I am, I decided to imply your twattishness.


I don't. :boxedin:
Nobody does. They happen, though. At least you acquit yourself well when they occur.

[DeusPhasmatis]

What I want to know is, "why iz we mucking about when derz seafood to loot!?"

One last thing:

It would have been a semantic point, and I knew you wished to avoid those, so, unfailingly polite person that I am, I decided to imply your twattishness.

The lesser of two jerks is still a jerk! :p
(The irony of saying this does not escape me)

I understand that you meant as little offense as possible while still having a meaningful conversation. Peaceable conclusion achieved?

Okay, I think I'm done being difficult for this thread... I seem to have failed my save against having the last word, though.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I understand that you meant as little offense as possible while still having a meaningful conversation. Peaceable conclusion achieved?
Time to smoke the peace salmon.

[swipes salmon from Pisci]

[Skeptic Ginger]

...assuming that the implication you state is valid/intended (which in at least some cases is a big assumption) there still exists a problem...

Personally? I don't see what bearing that implication has on my existence or eventuality given that I comprehend no personal pertinence, relevance or validity to god or religion....

Did you mean to say "I think one reason some don't think the "I'll pray...", because I don't fail to see this possible implication, though, it seems dishonest to assert that this IS the NATURAL implication.
On the one hand you are saying you don't think this is the implication and on the other hand you seem to be objecting that I said 'you' don't think it is the implication.

First, every time someone says, "I'll pray for you", the context is not that you are going to hell and they are praying to prevent it. So if that wasn't clear, then I'm making it clear here. If you want me to qualify what I posted then I'd say I'm referring to the context of, "I'll pray for your soul". as opposed to, "I'll pray for you that [X] happens".

...Again, I fail to see any real import if you truly don't believe.

Take offense if you must.Now you are comparing import and offense, those are two different things. Personally, I don't go off on anyone saying they'll pray for my soul. But in terms of value, if you think it through to its natural consequence, it is pretty offensive.

[Skeptic Ginger]

It is offensive because it is paraphrase for "you are wrong". In fact, the main case where "I pray for you" is used is "you are wrong and I hope you can get past your stubbornness". It is insulting, even with the best of intentions. The intent is that the atheist should change their belief. Of course it's offensive when someone says "you are wrong"!It is not always offensive to say someone is wrong. In fact, that's something I keep asking people to reconsider. One should not be offended for not being believed or for being wrong but it is a very common emotional reaction. It stops people from thinking about whether or not they actually are wrong. I have the same emotional reaction, I'm not trying to claim I don't. But I do try to consciously put the brakes on it when I can.

Again, it depends on the context. If you are telling them their perfectly harmless behavior is wrong because you have some ignorant idea of 'sin', that is offensive. If you tell me you believe gods are real and I am wrong not to, I am not offended.

If I tell you I think gods beliefs amount to magical thinking, I understand why the reaction is one of offense, but I've personally come to the conclusion that, when it needs to be said, there is no nicer way to effectively say it. And chances are no matter how I say it, it is going to be offensive. Thinking about this just now I had an epiphany about why it is offensive in one direction and not the other. In one case, why be offended if someone accuses you of not having irrational beliefs? In the other case it is offensive to be accused of having irrational beliefs.

[DoubtingStephen]

Thinking about this just now I had an epiphany about why it is offensive in one direction and not the other. In one case, why be offended if someone accuses you of not having irrational beliefs? In the other case it is offensive to be accused of having irrational beliefs.

Well said. Rational too :)

[DeusPhasmatis]

It is not always offensive to say someone is wrong. In fact, that's something I keep asking people to reconsider. One should not be offended for not being believed or for being wrong but it is a very common emotional reaction. It stops people from thinking about whether or not they actually are wrong. I have the same emotional reaction, I'm not trying to claim I don't. But I do try to consciously put the brakes on it when I can.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being offended. I do think there is something extremely wrong when being offended stops someone from thinking. Being offended explains someones behavior. It doesn't justify it.

[Piscivore]

Time to smoke the peace salmon.

[swipes salmon from Pisci]

Jerk.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Jerk.
Mmmmmmm Smoked Jerk Salmon.

[Piscivore]

In the other case it is offensive to be accused of having irrational beliefs.

Meh. If it isn't true, why bother being offended? As far as I'm concerned, it's the same as a playground bully saying "your momma eats poop!" In both cases getting upset is just the reaction the insulter wants.

[Piscivore]

Mmmmmmm Smoked Jerk Salmon.

Steady. If you don't save the smoking until after the jerking someone's liable to get hurt.

[ParanoidAndroid]

On the one hand you are saying you don't think this is the implication and on the other hand you seem to be objecting that I said 'you' don't think it is the implication.

(Bolding by me)...
Correct: I don't think that attempting to damn someone is THE implication (as you have stated), it's AN implication.

First, every time someone says, "I'll pray for you", the context is not that you are going to hell and they are praying to prevent it. So if that wasn't clear, then I'm making it clear here...


...Thank you for clarifying. We seem (at this point) to be in agreement about this...

...If you want me to qualify what I posted then I'd say I'm referring to the context of, "I'll pray for your soul". as opposed to, "I'll pray for you that [X] happens".


Again, thank you for clarifying.

Now you are comparing import and offense, those are two different things. Personally, I don't go off on anyone saying they'll pray for my soul. But in terms of value, if you think it through to its natural consequence, it is pretty offensive.


What I have said, and continue to say, is that since I comprehend no importance in the notion that my soul could or could not need prayer (or the implied resulting salvation), or alternately, could be subject to any concept of damnation, why would I be offended?

I conceive of nothing important to me in someone else pitching mythological constructs my way. To those who do so to express kindness, I express appreciation for their consideration. To those who do so with contempt, I'll not give them the satisfaction of my being offended.

That's just how I see it. I respect your right to take a different approach, but I don't have to agree with it. ;)

[articulett]

I always hear at as "I'll wish on a star for you"... usually it means nothing. When hurled as an invective, I say, "thanks, and I'll think for you." I think Dennett captures how I feel.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dennett06/dennett06_index.html

I understand most people don't know I'm an atheist... but if they do, I wish they realize that I think they are praying to make themselves feel better... so they can feel like they are doing something without doing anything. Being a listening ear is better than offering a prayer in my book. I understand it's the kind of thing people say, like "have a nice day"... it doesn't offend me... but it doesn't do anything for me, either.

Why don't non-believers seem to understand that my non belief is identical to all the crazy things they don't believe in. It would be like if I told a Christian, I hope you reincarnate as a swan... or an angel... or something goofy like that. It's asking for your bizarre belief to be deferred to, it seems. And then I'm stuck saying thanks for something I'm not particularly thankful for.

Mormons baptize by proxy for dead people so that those dead people can get into Mormon heaven... that's kind of audacious but harmless. I feel that way about people praying for me. Do you care if a Mormon baptizes themselves by proxy for you or your loved one? I say, let them knock themselves out. Just don't expect me to be thankful. I want no part of the "faith in faith" meme. I think it's childish and harmful... and promotes magical thinking over critical thought. We have enough irrational people on this planet as far as I'm concerned.

[articulett]

Hence, I usually offer words to the effect of "If you need to talk, or if there's anything i can do ..."

Exactly. If someone is in pain... share a positive memory of their loved one, cry with them, ask them questions about how they feel, tell them you believe in them and their ability to handle it, buy groceries, buy a beer, help make arrangements, do something to make life easier for them-- Dust! (okay, that would make life easier for me.) If you want to pray... why do you need to tell a person... unless that makes them feel better somehow. Why do people need to announce their prayers and their faith. I think it will be a better world when the faithful are as private as they want atheists to be. That's fair isn't it?

Why not save your declarations of prayer for those whom you know believe as you do?

On the topic, it pisses me off when people say, "our prayers are with you" when I'm part of "our". Of course I'm part of "we"... and my money says "in god we trust". I find that an embarrassing bizarre sentiment to place on money (if you trust god... why do you need money?) and I'm part of "we"--aren't I? What's wrong with secular money? A secular world-- where people can believe whatever they want privately --or loudly amongst other believers and on private property. Secular just means that nobody has to have their own life interfered with by someone's heartfelt beliefs or the messages such people think are coming from their invisible friends. Don't make me play a part in this magical thinking!

I understand the rules... but to me it sounds like "theists have a right to offend whom they please for whatever reasons they want, and if atheists don't like it, they can just shove it. Moreover, atheists do not have the right to offend, and no matter how politely they object, it will be heard as offensive whether they intended it or not--and once again they can shove it."

[articulett]

You really don't understand, do you?

God allows all those people to starve to test and motivate us to help them. In a similar way, God creates tidal waves to motivate us to, um, build better coastal defences. Anyhow, dead people are the lucky ones; all their suffering has given them extra reward in heaven.

I pray for you.

-------

Generally I just let peoples' religious nonsense pass unless they're making claims or being particularly pious.

Come now... the children aren't starving to death... they are starving to heaven... where they will get to live happily ever after before they got healthy enough to sin and risk hellfire. You're just not thinking ETERNITY, my friend. Who are you to question the wisdom of god?

[articulett]

I distinctly remember it flashing on me, "wow, so this is what 'offended' feels like." From my point of view, we needed real, tangible help that didn't cost anyone anything other than some time and some minimal effort. How about getting your kids to come and mow our yard once in a while? How about if you make a run to the grocery store for us? We're buying. Maybe you could drive my dad & grandmother to a park one afternoon so they could look at something besides walls and TV. It just really pissed me off that they could get 200 people to pretend they were actually having a positive impact, as if things would be EVEN WORSE if they weren't all huddled in there sending telepathic messages to influence the hand of god... but between them they couldn't come up with maybe an hour a week to use their OWN hands to do something that really would help.

Side note: Lest anyone draw faulty conclusions, I was already very agnostic before all that. I would have considered myself a Deist, if that. So it isn't as though this traumatized me away from religion.

So anyway, yeah. "I'll pray for you" can be somewhat offensive to me, but it depends entirely on the context. It's about like wearing those insufferable "awareness" ribbons and wristbands (http://www.personalizedcause.com/) and pretending that buying things helps someone in need. Slightly less tacky, perhaps.

I've been there. My husband and I were both 28 when he died of terminal cancer. The biggest help during the hardest times were from the non-religious. Someone asked if we wanted a priest to come in and give him his last rights and I almost threw up. My husband did not need to be forgiven nor did he need some religious authority to make things "right". The hospice was Catholic and were against euthanasia despite my husbands very clear stance that he had said his goodbyes and was tired of the suffering and really really wanted to know how he could just die.

I didn't mind the prayers and such... but they didn't work, and it's like foisting someone else's belief on me. My Mormon friend sent a sympathy card saying how sorry she was that I hadn't been married in the Mormon church so that I could know that my husband and I would be together forever (Mormons seal themselves in "celestial eternal marriages).

Theists take a lot of liberty to be offensive, but they often seem to be the first to play the "I'm offended" card should they get the slightest whiff of atheism.

Someone told me that my Darwin fish offends them. My reply: So! Am I really supposed to care about offending people who don't give a crap as to whether they might be a hundred times more offensive to me???

[articulett]

When I see you next week, I'll pay for you.

Is the Marquis going to be at TAM?

I'll pray with you when you buy me that drink. (When you pay for me.)

ETA... ah I read ahead... :(

I was looking forward to the opportunity to harass the Marquis in person. I guess I'll have to content myself with harassing others.

[DeusPhasmatis]

Steady. If you don't save the smoking until after the jerking someone's liable to get hurt.

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone makes it out unharmed after the jerking.

[Piscivore]

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone makes it out unharmed after the jerking.

And right there is exactly why the world needs robot hookers. Preprogrammed tolerance limits.

[Dr H]

I was once approached at an airport by two women who wanted to tell me "the good news about Jesus Christ.". I flippantly said I was a Satan worshiper and wasn't interested.

When I was younger and much more foolish I used a smiliar line on a guy who tried to 'phamphlet' me on a downtown street. Not only did he not offer to pray for me, but he proceded to stalk me down the street, into and out of stores, apparently attempting to 'exorcise' me, at the top of his voice. I think I only avoided a physical attack through police intervention, who saw the guy raving and figured him for a nut (which I'm pretty sure he was).

These days, depending on where I am accosted by the believer, and how much time I have I will either (1) engage them in debate on some point in their pamphlet; (2) tell them I am a devout Buddhist and promise to give their tract all the deep meditative consideration it deserves; or (3) smile, nod, thank them, and deposit the tract in the nearest recycle bin as soon as the phamphleteer is out of sight.

I had great fun with number (1) a few years ago when two middle-aged women, Jehova's Witnesses, came to my door with a tract on, among other things, sex education in the schools. I had just finished working out and was about to take a shower, so I answered the door wearing nothing but gym-trunks. I think I had some old Dead Kennedys playing on the stereo--something loud and obnoxious, anyway.

As the women made their pitch (warily eyeing the Darwin fish on my door, and the concrete pentacle on my front walk that a goth neighbor kid made for me), I invited them in to discuss their ideas. They made some excuse and beat a hasty retreat, promising to return at a time that was "more convenient" for me.

They never did, though.

In fact, the JW's haven't hit my house since that incident, though they used to get me at least 2 or 3 times a year prior to that.

:-)

[articulett]

I have one of these on my door. It doesn't always work. I have loud dogs too.

[Dr H]

So you don't think the implication when this is used in some contexts that you deserve to go to hell is offensive? I'll pray for your soul says exactly that.


Since "hell" is a concept as fallacious as "the efficacy of prayer," why should that offend an atheist? Someone saying to me "go to hell" and meaning it in the literal sense is, to my view, saying the equivalent of "go live in never never land".

Someone saying "I'll pray for you" is equivalent to saying "I'll go burn some incense and chant 'owahtagoosiam' for you untill I levitate."

Silly, but not offensive.

[Dr H]

Of course the vast majority of the time when someone says they will pray for me they are really trying to convey good intentions, not malice. Maybe they are praying for something I don't especially want, but their intentions are good.

How often, do you suppose, when someone says "I'll pray for you," that they actually do it?

[Achán hiNidráne]

If I've said it once...

Many die-hard Christians dislike (to put it mildly) the use of profanity, therefore when dealing with unbelievers their vocabulary is severely restricted.

Therefore, when the Christian tells you they'll "Pray for you," what they usually mean is "&%@$ you, atheist."

[ParanoidAndroid]

...some of the time...in one of several possible contexts...

[articulett]

I tend to feel embarrassed for them... they either sound silly, like a kid telling me he's going to tell Santa to get me something super special...

or like an adult who believes in curses and spells and other delusional things. My "woo" alarm goes off.

[DoubtingStephen]

I have one of these on my door. It doesn't always work. I have loud dogs too.

I have a similar sticker with a universal no red circle/slash over a crucifix on our front door. It does not always work either. Every once in a while a rational person comments on liking the idea.

One time a crew of 3 LDS-looking well dressed p[eople appeared at my door and before they could get a word out I began grilling them in my most confrontational voice about had they not seen this, and did they not understand it meant "No Jesus".

The Alpha Fundie had the brass testicles to begin to argue with me on my own doorstep, saying "Oh, so you don't want to talk to your neighbors?". I very quickly replied "Not if they want to talk about their religion, now get off my property." I was not speaking softly or in a congenial way.

If I had a dog I would certainly have invited him or her to participate in greeting these visitors. Of course a dog would have clearly understood the instant reaction I always have when a Jeebus crew darkens my door.

It's OK if they went home and prayed for me, as long as they were gone.

[Piscivore]

I have a similar sticker with a universal no red circle/slash over a crucifix on our front door. It does not always work either. Every once in a while a rational person comments on liking the idea.

One time a crew of 3 LDS-looking well dressed p[eople appeared at my door and before they could get a word out I began grilling them in my most confrontational voice about had they not seen this, and did they not understand it meant "No Jesus".

The Alpha Fundie had the brass testicles to begin to argue with me on my own doorstep, saying "Oh, so you don't want to talk to your neighbors?". I very quickly replied "Not if they want to talk about their religion, now get off my property." I was not speaking softly or in a congenial way.

If I had a dog I would certainly have invited him or her to participate in greeting these visitors. Of course a dog would have clearly understood the instant reaction I always have when a Jeebus crew darkens my door.

It's OK if they went home and prayed for me, as long as they were gone.

I'm sorry, but you do realise that's just playing right into their persecution fantasies, right? Dollars to donuts they walked away telling each other your hostility meant that you were "afraid" of the message they were trying to give you, and reinforced in their minds what "good" work they are doing. You may as well have given them a cookie for ignoring your sign.

[ParanoidAndroid]

...well said...

[DeusPhasmatis]

I'm sorry, but you do realise that's just playing right into their persecution fantasies, right? Dollars to donuts they walked away telling each other your hostility meant that you were "afraid" of the message they were trying to give you, and reinforced in their minds what "good" work they are doing. You may as well have given them a cookie for ignoring your sign.

Everything plays into their persecution complex. You could bake them a cake, and they'd find a way to call it persecution.

[dglas]

Everything plays into their persecution complex. You could bake them a cake, and they'd find a way to call it persecution.

QFT.


Do not pray for me.

You want to do something? Donate to medical research on diabetes, so that in the future others may have this condition alleviated, prevented and/or better treated. Always for the future.

"There are no theists in operating rooms."

[DeusPhasmatis]

"There are no theists in operating rooms."

I think it'd be better to say: "God ain't a surgeon!"

[dglas]

I think it'd be better to say: "God ain't a surgeon!"

Less wordy, perhaps, but it doesn't quite properly parody the "no atheists in foxholes" saying as I want it to. I'm trying to match the sentence structure, so that even the least acute will see it.

[DoubtingStephen]

I'm sorry, but you do realise that's just playing right into their persecution fantasies, right? Dollars to donuts they walked away telling each other your hostility meant that you were "afraid" of the message they were trying to give you, and reinforced in their minds what "good" work they are doing. You may as well have given them a cookie for ignoring your sign.

I don't mind feeding any of their delusions as long as they get off my property and never darken my door again.

My home is a Jeebus-free zone. People who happen to suffer from religious delusions are certainly still welcome, but propagating their BS is not.

[DeusPhasmatis]

Less wordy, perhaps, but it doesn't quite properly parody the "no atheists in foxholes" saying as I want it to. I'm trying to match the sentence structure, so that even the least acute will see it.

I understand, I just try to avoid even semblances of hypocrisy. The parody is fairly obvious, but never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[Ron_Tomkins]

I will now pray for this thread to see if we can melt away all of the tensions and bad vibrations I'm sensing here. So that we can all reach a state of peace and brotherhood.

[cj.23]

If I've said it once...

Many die-hard Christians dislike (to put it mildly) the use of profanity, therefore when dealing with unbelievers their vocabulary is severely restricted.

Therefore, when the Christian tells you they'll "Pray for you," what they usually mean is "&%@$ you, atheist."

No if I wanted to "&%@$ you, I'd say so and take you out for a meal. I guess the best response I could come up with if i was an atheist and someone offended me by saying "I'll pray for you" is "And I'll masturbate thinking of you tonight." Try it?

Mind you if anyone does want me to actually pray for them, feel free to pm me.

cj x

[dglas]

I tawt I taw equivocation.
I diiiiiiid! I did taw equivocation...

[cj.23]

I tawt I taw equivocation.
I diiiiiiid! I did taw equivocation...

cweeping up on yoo?

cj x

[blauregen]

Everything plays into their persecution complex. You could bake them a cake, and they'd find a way to call it persecution.

Hmm. If my cakes would be called persecution, I would take it as a sign that I have to work on my baking skills. They are meant for bribing after all.

[articulett]

I will now pray for this thread to see if we can melt away all of the tensions and bad vibrations I'm sensing here. So that we can all reach a state of peace and brotherhood.

Okay... you start the swaying and singing of Kumbaya...

Today I gave some guy asking for money outside a store some change... as often happens, he said, "god bless you". I take that as "thank you"... but it does kind of piss me off. If I was brave I would have said, "I'm an atheist". I just don't like the idea that everything good comes from god... or that I'm doing favors because of some god... I want the atheists to get the kudos... I'm tired of being seen as some immoral freak because I can't make a lick of sense of religion.

I didn't want to offend the guy, but them I got mad at myself... why am I worried about offending someone I just gave money to?

What do you think... should I let the invisible guy get some credit while people stomp on the feelings of atheists left and right. I don't know...

Hurry up with that kumbaya, ron--

[DeusPhasmatis]

Okay... you start the swaying and singing of Kumbaya...

Today I gave some guy asking for money outside a store some change... as often happens, he said, "god bless you". I take that as "thank you"... but it does kind of piss me off. If I was brave I would have said, "I'm an atheist". I just don't like the idea that everything good comes from god... or that I'm doing favors because of some god... I want the atheists to get the kudos... I'm tired of being seen as some immoral freak because I can't make a lick of sense of religion.

I didn't want to offend the guy, but them I got mad at myself... why am I worried about offending someone I just gave money to?

What do you think... should I let the invisible guy get some credit while people stomp on the feelings of atheists left and right. I don't know...

Hurry up with that kumbaya, ron--

Actually, in that sense, the person is saying "My imaginary friend should do something nice for you to repay the kindness you have shown me." It isn't praising God, it's beseeching God to repay the debts his worshipers run up.

You're still justified in being annoyed, but I don't think that line actually diminishes the act of the person in favor of the deity..

[Zalbik]

I really don't understand this thread. A number of the athiests on this thread appear to find it offensive if someone expresses their beliefs.

If someone wants to pray for me or ask their imaginary friend to help me out or throw salt over their shoulder to prevent something horrible from happening to me then my opinion is "whatever turns your crank". If praying your deity of choice helps get you through the day, go right ahead.

Personally I interpret "I'll pray for you" or "God bless you" the same as I would "good luck" or "best wishes".

After all, I don't believe in luck or wishes either, but I don't think anyone is annoyed by those phrases...

[articulett]

So who are the atheists that you think find it "offensive if someone shows their beliefs"?-- which quotes made you think that?

Do you think it makes a difference if the person saying they'll pray for you knows you are an atheist? Why would someone say that to someone they know is an atheist?

[DeusPhasmatis]

I really don't understand this thread. A number of the athiests on this thread appear to find it offensive if someone expresses their beliefs.

If someone wants to pray for me or ask their imaginary friend to help me out or throw salt over their shoulder to prevent something horrible from happening to me then my opinion is "whatever turns your crank". If praying your deity of choice helps get you through the day, go right ahead.

Personally I interpret "I'll pray for you" or "God bless you" the same as I would "good luck" or "best wishes".

After all, I don't believe in luck or wishes either, but I don't think anyone is annoyed by those phrases...

I express my belief that you are, in fact, an idiot1. Is that inoffensive? Is it impossible for an expression of belief to be offensive? Remember, offendedness is an emotion. It is not governed by the rules of formal logic.

The majority of these offended atheists are responding to a specific situation. That situation is when, after failing to persuade or convert the atheist, the theist ends the conversation with "I'll pray for you." In this specific context, that surmounts to "you are wrong, and I hope my deity will forcibly change your mind for you."

The inherent assumption that the theist is correct, and that the atheist deserves to be brainwashed, is offensive to most people. The hypocrisy inherent in this situation ("I just am right and you just are wrong, and it can't possibly be the reverse situation") is offensive to many atheists in that position. It is patronizing. And being patronized by someone who just fled a discussion is sure to raise the hackles of most people.

[1]: This is meant solely to make a point, and should not be taken literally. I mean as little offense as possible while still maintaining a meaningful discussion.

[articulett]

I'm not offended... I'm usually amused... sometimes embarrassed for the other person... as though they said they were going to "wish on a star for me". But I can see why some theists would want to see that as being offended. It's easier than having to look at what they are saying.

I mean, their god is telepathic... why the hell do they have to tell me about their relationship with him? I take it as seriously as I take Scientologists Operating Thetan levels. It's all just woo. Mostly harmless-- sometimes mock worthy... but all woo.

Did Zalbik actually read the other posts before posting that... or did he just assume he knew what people said? Why would Zalbik think people should have the same reaction as he did? Does he imagine himself a role model? I find those kinds of posts almost as giggle inspiring as people "praying for me".

[Zalbik]

So who are the atheists that you think find it "offensive if someone shows their beliefs"?-- which quotes made you think that?

Do you think it makes a difference if the person saying they'll pray for you knows you are an atheist? Why would someone say that to someone they know is an atheist?

The quotes would be as follows:
DeusPhasmatis: It offends atheists in the same way "you are mistaken about the existence of God" offends theists,

Empress: I admit I find that irritating,

JoeEllison: When someone pulls out the "I'll pray for you" as the trump card in their attack on me because I'm an atheist then of course it is offensive


Beerina: Even in the event a god similar to what you commonly believe exists, I do not want you praying for me. I want this savage god thingie to cast me into Hell because I refuse to believe in it, or if it does exist, refuse to worship it.

bellonax: Along a similar line to what Beerina said, it's offensive because

H3LL: Arrogant and insulting on so many levels.

articulett: but it does kind of piss me off.

Ok, I'm tired of cutting / pasting quotes now. But it does seem that a lot of people are offended, insulted, pissed off when someone expresses their best wishes in the capacity they are accustomed to.

IMHO, it makes no difference whether they know I'm an athiest or not. As you said, them praying for me is primarily for their benefit, not mine. But if that's what helps them cope, then they can go right ahead.

[Zalbik]

I express my belief that you are, in fact, an idiot1. Is that inoffensive? Is it impossible for an expression of belief to be offensive? Remember, offendedness is an emotion. It is not governed by the rules of formal logic.

The majority of these offended atheists are responding to a specific situation. That situation is when, after failing to persuade or convert the atheist, the theist ends the conversation with "I'll pray for you." In this specific context, that surmounts to "you are wrong, and I hope my deity will forcibly change your mind for you."

The inherent assumption that the theist is correct, and that the atheist deserves to be brainwashed, is offensive to most people. The hypocrisy inherent in this situation ("I just am right and you just are wrong, and it can't possibly be the reverse situation") is offensive to many atheists in that position. It is patronizing. And being patronized by someone who just fled a discussion is sure to raise the hackles of most people.

[1]: This is meant solely to make a point, and should not be taken literally. I mean as little offense as possible while still maintaining a meaningful discussion.

The correct argument would be as follows:

You're an idiot. I pray for you.

In this case, I don't find the "I pray for you part" offensive at all. It's the rest of it I have issue with. I can understand the part about the patronizing BS pissing people off, but the OP implied that they were asking about the phrase WITHOUT the patronizing BS:

"as long as the unspoken part stays unspoken it is sufficiently polite to not offend...so what is it, that is specifically offensive to you if someone states to pray for you?"

[Zalbik]

I'm not offended... I'm usually amused... sometimes embarrassed for the other person... as though they said they were going to "wish on a star for me". But I can see why some theists would want to see that as being offended. It's easier than having to look at what they are saying.

I mean, their god is telepathic... why the hell do they have to tell me about their relationship with him? I take it as seriously as I take Scientologists Operating Thetan levels. It's all just woo. Mostly harmless-- sometimes mock worthy... but all woo.

Did Zalbik actually read the other posts before posting that... or did he just assume he knew what people said? Why would Zalbik think people should have the same reaction as he did? Does he imagine himself a role model? I find those kinds of posts almost as giggle inspiring as people "praying for me".

I'm curious specifically about the people who are offended, insulted, pissed of (and you count yourself as one of them in a previous post).

How is "I pray for you" any different than "good luck", in absense of any other context?

BTW, why is articulett talking about Zalbik in the third person? :)

[DeusPhasmatis]

How is "I pray for you" any different than "good luck", in absense of any other context?

Context is everything, and an absence of context is a context all its own!

[articulett]

Zal,

Most people seem to agree that it's harmless when people are ignorant and don't know of your leanings... and they gave specific examples when it bugged them. It seems like you lumped all the definition together and decided atheists in general were offended when people said they'd pray for them. I and others specifically said, that in most cases it was about on par with telling us "they'd wish on a star for us"-- harmless... but goofy... we'd prefer not. But that isn't the only context. And when someone knows you are an atheist, it's just weird. It's like telling someone who believes in heaven and hell what you hope they'll reincarnate as.

You are entitled to your opinion... I just think you have a very shallow interpretation of what you read and you come across as thinking we should all be more like you. Thanks, but as for myself, I'll decline. I like the other respondents better. You just sound judgmental to me... but hey... opinions... we all sound "offended" to you-- because you think "I'll pray for you" is identical to "good luck" no matter what the context. That sounds vapid to me. But then I read the posts and not just for the point that I was trying to prove to myself.

I think many have been clear. If you can't understand, I don't think I'll be able to convey it. But I don't think you want to understand. I think you want to tsk-tsk atheists for being bothered by peoples belief blathering... when they could just as well keep it private. You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems most people prefer their own. You entered this thread with supposed confusion... and a conclusion about the posters. I don't think anything is going to change that.

"I'll pray for you" is not the same as "good luck"-- but even good luck said sarcastically is nothing I want a part of. If your goal is to comfort people than stick to the people whom that will comfort... is that too much to ask?

By the way... why don't you quote in context.... what specifically "pisses me off"... you seem to have missed some important details in your effort to be offended by the atheists you've imagined as "offended" due to the equivalent of "good luck wishes".

[articulett]

I'm curious specifically about the people who are offended, insulted, pissed of (and you count yourself as one of them in a previous post).

How is "I pray for you" any different than "good luck", in absense of any other context?

BTW, why is articulett talking about Zalbik in the third person? :)

I was talking about you, not to you, in that post. That makes you a third person.

[Zalbik]

Zal,

Most people seem to agree that it's harmless when people are ignorant and don't know of your leanings... and they gave specific examples when it bugged them. It seems like you lumped all the definition together and decided atheists in general were offended when people said they'd pray for them. I and others specifically said, that in most cases it was about on par with telling us "they'd wish on a star for us"-- harmless... but goofy... we'd prefer not. But that isn't the only context. And when someone knows you are an atheist, it's just weird. It's like telling someone who believes in heaven and hell what you hope they'll reincarnate as.


Actually, on re-reading your posts in this thread, I see I was mistaken about your opinion on the subject. I was just skimming posts as I had seen numerous example of people finding it annoying [i]without[i] giving the context of why they would be annoyed. Yes, there are a number of posts where people give valid contexts, but that's not what I'm questioning (nor the OP as far as I can tell). I'm wondering, for example, if people find it offensive when someone offers an "I'll pray for you" as an attempt at comfort or expression of hope.


You are entitled to your opinion... I just think you have a very shallow interpretation of what you read and you come across as thinking we should all be more like you.

Huh? When did I imply I thought others should be more like me? If I came across that way, I apologize, that was never my intent

[articulett]

Sorry... maybe I've been reading too many apologists. It sounded in your post that you were curious about why people didn't have the same reaction that you had. I think people gave pretty good reasons as to why they didn't have the same reaction you have... you seemed to have skipped those reasons and (here I'm making my own extrapolation) opining that they should have the reaction that you have.

It sounded at first like you were looking for an explanation... but it then looked like a false query, because there were pages of explanations... so I assumed the second part is what your post was about... asserting your opinion as to how people should take it as no big deal as you do. If you thought someone in particular had an unusual reaction, and you truly wanted to know why, you should ask that person.

Otherwise--and I'm sure you can understand this-- your post reads to some as, "why are you guys over reacting... you'd be better if you had my opinion on the whole subjected and reacted the way I did."

Forgive me if I mistook the reason of your post. It appeared (to me) to be fake curiosity disguised as a means of opining and tsk-tsking while not having even read the other posts. If you've read this forum much, you'll understand that that is usually the sign of a troll or a woo or some self appointed expert or apologist or skeptic-baiter.

[slingblade]

I really don't understand this thread. A number of the athiests on this thread appear to find it offensive if someone expresses their beliefs.

So, does that offend you? :p

If someone wants to pray for me or ask their imaginary friend to help me out or throw salt over their shoulder to prevent something horrible from happening to me then my opinion is "whatever turns your crank". If praying your deity of choice helps get you through the day, go right ahead.

Personally I interpret "I'll pray for you" or "God bless you" the same as I would "good luck" or "best wishes".

After all, I don't believe in luck or wishes either, but I don't think anyone is annoyed by those phrases...

Actually, dependent on context and on who is uttering them, I can and have been offended by such wishes.

I have had people wish me luck sarcastically, as if all the luck in the world couldn't help me, and even the cat knows it. Or as if to say "I wish you luck, because obviously reason, planning and forethought aren't tools with which you are familiar."

It isn't the isolated act that's necessarily offensive, as many of the atheists here have acknowledged. It's the intent behind the act.

[Zalbik]

So, does that offend you? :p



Actually, dependent on context and on who is uttering them, I can and have been offended by such wishes.

I have had people wish me luck sarcastically, as if all the luck in the world couldn't help me, and even the cat knows it. Or as if to say "I wish you luck, because obviously reason, planning and forethought aren't tools with which you are familiar."

It isn't the isolated act that's necessarily offensive, as many of the atheists here have acknowledged. It's the intent behind the act.


Ok, that makes perfect sense. And it also goes to show that I really shouldn't try and read this site past 1:00AM.

Apparently my reading comprehension abilities diminish exponentially in the wee hours of the morning. For some reason I got it in my head that people were objecting to the use of the phrase at all rather than the intent behind the phrase.

Looking back over the posts I quoted, I see that in the vast majority of cases they are referring to specific examples...my bad :o

[slingblade]

Ok, that makes perfect sense. And it also goes to show that I really shouldn't try and read this site past 1:00AM.

Apparently my reading comprehension abilities diminish exponentially in the wee hours of the morning. For some reason I got it in my head that people were objecting to the use of the phrase at all rather than the intent behind the phrase.

Looking back over the posts I quoted, I see that in the vast majority of cases they are referring to specific examples...my bad :o

Happens to us all. What doesn't always happen is the recognition and retraction. That was pretty cool of you. :)

I was re-reading several posts, and this one caught my eye:

I need to clarify; I'm speaking specifically of the "Oh, you're an atheist. I'll pray for you." variety. <snip...>

And I had an epiphianic moment: a flash of something I could say to that remark.

A: "You're going to pray for me because I'm an atheist?"

B: Yes, I'm going to pray that the Lord will soften your heart, and that you'll turn your life to Him.

A: "But isn't one of the major points of your faith the notion that God grants us the free will to believe, to serve, or not?"

B: Well, yes. God doesn't force any of us to believe in Him. He gives us that choice.

A: "So, having obviously made my choice, I'm told you are now going to deliberately ask your God to interfere and to convert me, against my will, to something you were allowed to freely choose? Is that it?"

B: Well, no. I'm only going to ask Him to soften your heart...

A: "Which will be Him and you both interfering with my supposed free will, and mucking about with my right to choose. Which He gave me. No. I think not. In this instance, you cannot pray this prayer for me, and still be obedient to your beliefs. If you did, you'd probably be sinning."




You think this might leave them either so impressed or so confused, they'll forget the whole idea? :p

[-Fran-]

To clarify a little bit what I said before. In Sweden general good wishes are usually not religiously flavored. Swedish equivalents of phrases like "God bless you", "I'll pray for you" and similar things are very unusual, in a context of just general well-meaning well-wishes. It would sure raise some eyebrows here if someone said things like that

It's not all about Sweden being a largely secularised country, I think, since for example swear words and expressions of surprise and such are often religiously flavored. Atheist as I am (and have always been) I often spout the Swedish version of "Oh my god" when I am surprised or upset, for example, and that's from pure tradition and habit, and means nothing. But as far as well-wishes go this seems to be an area of exclamations and expressions that is not so obviously religiously flavored here.

If someone uses such phrases here you will at once suspect that they are VERY religious and actually is after something. And so, off-line and in real life, I have only encountered it in connection with fundie type of Christians who actually tried to convert me, and wanted to pray for me when I declined.

So my answer might be culturally flavored, I will most surely get really annoyed if I encounter it in real life, and can potentially misunderstand it coming from people from other cultures, I suppose.

[articulett]

As normal bob smith points out... he could just pray for Satans salvation and get rid of this whole hell crap altogether. Right? (click to enlarge)

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/publicity&promotion/banners_fliers_prayforsatan.html

[Achán hiNidráne]

"And I'll masturbate thinking of you tonight." Try it?

Ewwww... Not if I ever want to have an erection ever again. In point of fact, if I ever show signs that I'm being sexually attracted to a theist of any stripe, I hope some would have the decency to put a bullet to me as an act of mercy.

[cj.23]

Ewwww... Not if I ever want to have an erection ever again. In point of fact, if I ever show signs that I'm being sexually attracted to a theist of any stripe, I hope some would have the decency to put a bullet to me as an act of mercy.

It's cool Mark, I'm not that kind of girl. Actually I'm not any kind of girl, being male, but I'm cool with you not fancying me. I always preferred people with a different gender to me - I'm old fashioned that way. :) You may be horrified, but I bet most people who offer to pray for you would be just as offended by that offer of masturbating while thinking of them. I doubt they would do it again, and i speak from experience. You don't actually have to do it you know?

cj x

[articulett]

I'm sure they'll be just as like to stop if you say you'll flatulate for them.

[MetalSeagull]

I'm sure they'll be just as like to stop if you say you'll flatulate for them.

Now I'm going to laugh the next time I hear "I'll pray for you."

I just hope it's contextually appropriate.