MA Governor to be in Gay Pride Parade with Daughter

[DoubtingStephen]

The 18 year old daughter of Massachusetts Governor Patrick Duval has come out as a lesbian (http://www.baywindows.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=75834) and her father has announced that he will march with his daughter in the Gay Pride Parade in Boston this Sunday, June 15, 2008.

Governor Duval is on record as a staunch supporter of equal rights for all citizens of the Bay State, quite an upgrade from a previous governor whose name need not be mentioned.

Katherine recalls coming out to her parents as they prepared for a picnic by the pool at their home in the Berkshires. It was July 3, 2007 at around 2:30 p.m., she says.

"You remember the date?" the governor inquires, eyebrows raised. In a telephone interview, Diane Patrick, who had planned to attend the interview with her husband and Katherine but got caught in traffic on a return trip from Providence, R.I., expressed similar surprise at Katherine’s detailed memory.
(link (http://www.baywindows.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=75834))

IMHO the Governor has got what we like to call Family Values™ as is evidenced by the way he values the members of his family.

Katherine Duval also related her sense of pride in her father, recalling his celebration when a proposed Constitutional ban to restrict the civil rights of gay and lesbian citizens was defeated. She indicated that this event took place before she came out to her parents.

I'm glad to know that the people of Massachusetts are being governed by a man who knows what is important. Way to go, Duval family!

[Sefarst]

Good for him. It'd be nice for America to wake up and realize that these are civil rights issues. I'm always surprised that there aren't really any public champions of this cause, given that there are millions of people still alive today who know what its like to be treated as second-class citizens.

[BPSCG]

I've don't understand why someone should be proud of being gay, or black, or white, or left-handed, or anything else one has no control over.

[DoubtingStephen]

I've don't understand why someone should be proud of being gay, or black, or white, or left-handed, or anything else one has no control over.

Beeps, I understand your comment, it is one that is often heard. It is a reaction to being told that you should be ashamed of being gay. Folks are saying, no, I will not be ashamed of who I am. Perhaps in part the pride comes from being willing to face down bigotry in one's own life.

I had a life changing event at the San Francisco Gay Pride Parade in 1992, the year I arrived in California, when along with a close friend I persuaded 3 San Francisco police officers to step through a "closet door" he had made, thus symbolically coming out of the closet.

In the process I lost my voice, then later I stayed up all night writing a short story that appeared in a minor South Bay gay newspaper. It is still online on my very first (and atrociously ugly) website, if you'd care to read it.

Photo:
http://aintnogod.com/images/The-Closet-Door.jpg

Story:
http://www.fagnits.com/catalog/closet.html

(it's not very good)

[Ladewig]

I've don't understand why someone should be proud of being gay, or black, or white, or left-handed, or anything else one has no control over.

A gay minister I know told me that when society display anger and disgust toward a group of people, then their announcing their pride is one way to deflect the negative emotions. You named a list of qualities that folks have no control over; but on that list, homosexuality is the only one that people can hide from others. Gay pride events can be one way to communicate to younger folks that one should "be true to one's school."

That being said, I am a bit confused as to why some guy walking down the street wearing nothing but a rainbow condom is an appropriate way to celebrate one's culture, heritage, and contributions to society.

[BPSCG]

Beeps, I understand your comment, it is one that is often heard. It is a reaction to being told that you should be ashamed of being gay. Folks are saying, no, I will not be ashamed of who I am. Perhaps in part the pride comes from being willing to face down bigotry in one's own life.I understand where that comes from, but there's a difference between not being ashamed of being gay and being proud of it.

Misplaced pride is not just silly - it's counterproductive, it's self-destructive, just as much as misplaced shame is. You see it being taught in elementary schools as some misbegotten attempt to instill self-esteem in kids. They pump the kids up with how wonderful they are, fill them up with lies about how they can do anything as long as they believe it (even if they can't read or write), and tell them they are worthy of respect (but not that respect has to be earned). The result is a generation of kids who don't know anything but think they're the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel.

I used to work with a deaf guy. He had a deaf wife, and, not surprisingly, their kid was deaf. He had a decal stuck over his desk that bragged, "I'm Proud That My Child Goes To (I forget the name) School for The Deaf."

Got it? He's not proud of his kid for any accomplishment, but simply for the fact that the kid is enrolled in some school for deaf kids.

You see, year after year, that American kids score lower in every area of math and science than European and Asian kids, but they consistently score better than their foreign counterparts in one area: estimation of their own abilities.

So, yeah, I'm fed up with "gay pride" and "black pride." It's a way of saying, "Look up to me, because I've accomplished something special," when in fact all you did was get born with a certain combination of genes.

I'm proud that I have brown eyes.

You write better today than you did in 1992, BTW. Be proud of that.

[DoubtingStephen]

You write better today than you did in 1992, BTW. Be proud of that.

Thank you :)

[Terry]

I understand where that comes from, but there's a difference between not being ashamed of being gay and being proud of it.


"Gay not ashamed parade" lacks a certain je ne sais quoi though.

[DoubtingStephen]

"Gay not ashamed parade" lacks a certain je ne sais quoi though.

I see you speka ze French. Want to see my gay pride T-shirts?

[Terry]

I see you speka ze French. Want to see my gay pride T-shirts?

what, you think I'll fall for that A SECOND TIME?

[DoubtingStephen]

They are verra nice.

[Ian Osborne]

what, you think I'll fall for that A SECOND TIME?

:D

[Ian Osborne]

Ultimately, beeps is right, but as Stephen says, gay 'pride' is reasserting a group of people's civil rights and celebrating the fact that being born gay - which is neither an achievement nor a crime - is not something one should be ashamed of. When gay pride has done its job, then we can take the realistic position that being gay is of no more significance than having brown eyes. Until then, it's a useful reaction to misplaced prejudice.

[BPSCG]

Ultimately, beeps is right, News of the tautological...:rolleyes:

but as Stephen says, gay 'pride' is reasserting a group of people's civil rights and celebrating the fact that being born gay - which is neither an achievement nor a crime - is not something one should be ashamed of. When gay pride has done its job, then we can take the realistic position that being gay is of no more significance than having brown eyes. No, you should take it now. It's evidence of a mature attitude. It's a healthy way of thinking that doesn't fill one's mind up with invalid ideas - good or bad - of one's own self-worth based on genetic chance. Misplaced pride in your sexual orientation or eye color is no justification for asserting your civil rights, any more than misplaced shame of your sexual orientation or eye color is justification for waiving your civil rights. Your civil rights, or lack of them, flow from the fact that you live in America, not from how you feel about batting right-handed or left-handed (or being a switch-hitter...).

In the fight for civil rights, as in any fight, it is important that you neither overestimate nor underestimate your opponents' strengths and weaknesses. It is also important that you neither overestimate nor underestimate your own. Misplaced shame and misplaced pride do exactly that. Face the world with a clear eye and a clear mind, not with delusions that your genes somehow determine what you and others should think about yourself.

Until then, it's a useful reaction to misplaced prejudice.There will always be misplaced prejudice, and not just against gays, but against every single person on this earth (there are people who hate you, for example, just for your religion or lack thereof). And there's nothing you can do about it. But you can at least make sure your own head is screwed on straight.

Anyone recall ever seeing a "Jewish Pride" march in New York City? I didn't think so.

Come on, you Hebes, are you with me?

Say it loud!
I'm Jew and Proud!
Say it loud!
I'm Jew and Proud!
Say it loud!
I'm Jew and Proud!

[ponderingturtle]

I understand where that comes from, but there's a difference between not being ashamed of being gay and being proud of it.


I am not at all sure that the issues you have with people with misplaced pride is really relevent to pride parrade.


Why not take issue with the 4th of july and all that "Proud to Be an American" stuff?

It is about group solidarity and parties and I don't really have a problem with that.

[Cleon]

Anyone recall ever seeing a "Jewish Pride" march in New York City? I didn't think so.


Uh...Click here (http://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+pride&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a). We've had "Jewish Pride"-themed events since I was a little yidlet.

As someone wiser than I once said:

"I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook-nose, I'm kosher mum, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!"

[BPSCG]

I am not at all sure that the issues you have with people with misplaced pride is really relevent to pride parrade.


Why not take issue with the 4th of july and all that "Proud to Be an American" stuff?I was wondering if someone would bring up just that complaint.

I am not proud to be an American. That's accident of birth, as well (though I suppose it's not as immutable as my sexual orientation).

I'm grateful to be an American.

I'm proud of what America has done, what it stands for, and maybe I'm a little proud of what small part I play in making America the wonderful country that it is.

But proud just to be an American, when the only thing I did to be an American was to be born here? Why should I be?

[BPSCG]

Uh...Click here (http://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+pride&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a). We've had "Jewish Pride"-themed events since I was a little yidlet.

As someone wiser than I once said:

"I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook-nose, I'm kosher mum, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!"So when's the next Moses Day Parade down Fifth Avenue, with Mayor Bloomberg kicking it off while eating a ceremonial plate of gefilte fish and Jewish babes tossing dreidels and latkes to the crowd from floats emblazoned with the slogan, "Hebes Are Hot!" and...

If SF is the cultural center of America's gay community, then New York is the center of its Jewish community. So where's that great big Moses Day Jewish Pride Parade?

[ImaginalDisc]

Uh...Click here (http://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+pride&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a). We've had "Jewish Pride"-themed events since I was a little yidlet.

As someone wiser than I once said:

"I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook-nose, I'm kosher mum, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!"


You mean BPSCG was foolishly and bombabstically ignorant, and said something so wrong that two seconds of preemptive Goggling would have saved him face?

Wake me when there's news.

[Ian Osborne]

So when's the next Moses Day Parade down Fifth Avenue, with Mayor Bloomberg kicking it off while eating a ceremonial plate of gefilte fish and Jewish babes tossing dreidels and latkes to the crowd from floats emblazoned with the slogan, "Hebes Are Hot!" and...

So celebrations of group identity don't count as misplaced pride unless they're a parody of gay pride parades?

[rwguinn]

You mean BPSCG was foolishly and bombabstically ignorant, and said something so wrong that two seconds of preemptive Goggling would have saved him face?

Wake me when there's news.

So celebrations of group identity don't count as misplaced pride unless they're a parody of gay pride parades?
:dl: :dl:

Talk about totally missing the point...

[BPSCG]

Wake me when there's news.Wake me when the big Jew Pride parade starts. Google "Jewish Pride Parade" and let me know about the thousands hundreds dozens maybe one "Jewish Pride" parade in the U.S. All I find is a youtube that seems to be more of a "Support Israel" parade than a "Jewish Pride" parade.

But don't let that stop you in your neverending search for a clue. Wake me when you get one.

ETA: Instead of addressing a couple of throwaway posts that raise a tangential, semi-unserious question (why don't Jews celebrate "Jewish pride?"), why don't you address the serious issue I raised in posts 6 and 14, if you think you're up to it?

[Cleon]

So when's the next Moses Day Parade down Fifth Avenue, with Mayor Bloomberg kicking it off while eating a ceremonial plate of gefilte fish and Jewish babes tossing dreidels and latkes to the crowd from floats emblazoned with the slogan, "Hebes Are Hot!" and...

If SF is the cultural center of America's gay community, then New York is the center of its Jewish community. So where's that great big Moses Day Jewish Pride Parade?

For better or for worse, depending on your point of view, the yearly Israel Day Parade largely functions as just that.

In any event, I fail to see the reason why a parade, specifically, is necessary for "Jewish Pride" to exist. I thought it was the concept of "Gay Pride" (or "Jewish Pride") you had an issue with, not the parade itself. At least, that's what you've been addressing. If it's the parade specifically, what's the issue? Is it the rainbow flags? The blocked streets? The "Bearmobiles?"


Of course, the main the difference between "Jewish Pride" and "Gay Pride" is that, unlike the gay community, the rest of society is for the most part ok with Jews. Even the evangelical protestants and Catholics, who hated us 50 years ago, now sing a completely different tune.

I hope the day will come when the same is said about the gay community. I hope it will happen in my--no, scratch that.

I hope it will happen in Terry and Steve's lifetimes.

[Darat]

Reads like some people are getting hung up with a word "pride" rather than anything of substance.

[ImaginalDisc]

Considering how Irish immigrants were looked down on for such a long time in American history, the St. Patty's Day parade functioned in a similar way to a Gay Pride parade. I'd hope that one day being gay is no more important than being Irish.

Also, I'm amused by the thought of a world where "everyone's gay on gay pride day."

[Cleon]

Reads like some people are getting hung up with a word "pride" rather than anything of substance.

Yep.

Considering how Irish immigrants were looked down on for such a long time in American history, the St. Patty's Day parade functioned in a similar way to a Gay Pride parade. I'd hope that one day being gay is no more important than being Irish.

And it still does function as a sort of "Irish pride" event, insofar as it's a celebration of Irish culture and history in the United States.

Oh, hey, look at that (http://www.google.com/search?q=proud+to+be+irish&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a).

So Irish Pride events go on. And that's ok.
And Jewish Pride events go on. And that's ok.

But for some reason, Gay Pride is "counterproductive" and "self-destructive."


Also, I'm amused by the thought of a world where "everyone's gay on gay pride day."

:D

[ponderingturtle]

I was wondering if someone would bring up just that complaint.

I am not proud to be an American. That's accident of birth, as well (though I suppose it's not as immutable as my sexual orientation).

I'm grateful to be an American.

I'm proud of what America has done, what it stands for, and maybe I'm a little proud of what small part I play in making America the wonderful country that it is.

But proud just to be an American, when the only thing I did to be an American was to be born here? Why should I be?

Then do you object to the 4th of july as it is commonly celebrated or not?

[ponderingturtle]

So when's the next Moses Day Parade down Fifth Avenue, with Mayor Bloomberg kicking it off while eating a ceremonial plate of gefilte fish and Jewish babes tossing dreidels and latkes to the crowd from floats emblazoned with the slogan, "Hebes Are Hot!" and...


So only parades count then?

[BPSCG]

In any event, I fail to see the reason why a parade, specifically, is necessary for "Jewish Pride" to exist. I thought it was the concept of "Gay Pride" (or "Jewish Pride") you had an issue with, not the parade itself. It is.

At least, that's what you've been addressing. If it's the parade specifically, what's the issue? Is it the rainbow flags? The blocked streets? The "Bearmobiles?"It's not the parade. What I was trying to point out was that...

Of course, the main the difference between "Jewish Pride" and "Gay Pride" is that, unlike the gay community, the rest of society is for the most part ok with Jews. Exactly. And somehow the Jews managed to more or less gain acceptance without resorting to proclaiming to the world how proud they were at being Jewish.

Even the evangelical protestants and Catholics, who hated us 50 years ago, now sing a completely different tune.Meh - more or less, anyway.

I hope the day will come when the same is said about the gay community. I hope it will happen in my--no, scratch that.

I hope it will happen in Terry and Steve's lifetimes.What's wrong with its happening today? Why do you hate gays? :p

Just got off the phone with a Jewish NYC-area colleague and asked him if he knew about any NYC Jew-Pride parades. You could hear him scratching his head - best he could come up with was "My wife was working on some kind of parade a couple of years ago..." but it turned out it was some sort of pro-Israel demonstration.

[Darat]

The origins of the use of the term "Gay Pride" comes from a time when people were being told that they should be ashamed of being gay and much worse. So when the early campaigners adopted the term "Gay Pride" what they were trying to express was "We are not ashamed to be gay", under the conditions prevalent at the time it seems a reasonable antonym to have picked.

[BPSCG]

Then do you object to the 4th of july as it is commonly celebrated or not?I love Independence Day. But I look at it as a day to be thankful for America and all the great things about it, not as a day for me to be proud of my Americanism. I'm proud of America, not because it simply exists, but for what it has done to make the world a better place, and again, I'm a tiny bit proud of the tiny part I play in making it a country worthy of being proud of.

Again, I see no reason to be proud of something I have no control over, whether it's my race, sex, or nationality. I am proud of good things that I have accomplished. And ashamed of the bad things I've done, too.

[ImaginalDisc]

Then do you object to the 4th of july as it is commonly celebrated or not?

Zing.

[ponderingturtle]

Just got off the phone with a Jewish NYC-area colleague and asked him if he knew about any NYC Jew-Pride parades. You could hear him scratching his head - best he could come up with was "My wife was working on some kind of parade a couple of years ago..." but it turned out it was some sort of pro-Israel demonstration.

What remarkable goalpost moving. First it was the whole idea of taking pride and celebrating a grouping that you where objecting to.

You have abbandoned that and are now focusing only on the parade part.

So lets look at a different event, memorial day and veterans day parades. Yes many of them are worthy of respect and honor, but getting into the armed servies is not really any more significant a personal acomplishment than saying what highschool someone attends.

So we need to get them to stop such military pride events.

[Ian Osborne]

Tell the truth, Darat. It's because the organisers couldn't spell 'Gay Unashamed'...

[Darat]

Or more likely didn't have enough sequins to spell it out! (And anyone thinking that is a bit of stereotype I would suggest they check out the history of Stonewall and the people involved.)

[ponderingturtle]

I love Independence Day. But I look at it as a day to be thankful for America and all the great things about it, not as a day for me to be proud of my Americanism. I'm proud of America, not because it simply exists, but for what it has done to make the world a better place, and again, I'm a tiny bit proud of the tiny part I play in making it a country worthy of being proud of.

Again, I see no reason to be proud of something I have no control over, whether it's my race, sex, or nationality. I am proud of good things that I have accomplished. And ashamed of the bad things I've done, too.

SO you are against 4th of july day parades as they exist in this country then.

It really seems that you have more of an issue with parades in general than anything specific about Gay Pride Parades.

[Cleon]

It is.

It's not the parade.

But you can't get past that, for some reason.



Exactly. And somehow the Jews managed to more or less gain acceptance without resorting to proclaiming to the world how proud they were at being Jewish.Instead, 6,000,000 of us had to be thrown in ovens, causing the world to feel a great sense of shame and forcing people to take a good, long look at their anti-Semitism.

Myself, I would've preferred the "Jewish Pride Parade" route.


Just got off the phone with a Jewish NYC-area colleague and asked him if he knew about any NYC Jew-Pride parades. You could hear him scratching his head - best he could come up with was "My wife was working on some kind of parade a couple of years ago..." but it turned out it was some sort of pro-Israel demonstration.
Again, the focus on specifically a parade.

We've already established that "Jewish Pride" events do happen, that people do say "I'm proud to be Jewish," etc. And as I pointed out, the Israel Day Parade does largely function as a "Jewish Pride" event.

But you're still focused on the aspect of a parade for some reason.

[Darat]

BPSCG - out of curiosity would you say you are proud of who you are?

[BPSCG]

What remarkable goalpost moving. First it was the whole idea of taking pride and celebrating a grouping that you where objecting to.

You have abbandoned that and are now focusing only on the parade part.

So lets look at a different event, memorial day and veterans day parades. Yes many of them are worthy of respect and honor, but getting into the armed servies is not really any more significant a personal acomplishment than saying what highschool someone attends.

So we need to get them to stop such military pride events.

SO you are against 4th of july day parades as they exist in this country then.

It really seems that you have more of an issue with parades in general than anything specific about Gay Pride Parades.I'm trying to see if there's any sense at all in the above two posts.











Sorry, not getting there. :confused:

See my reply to Cleon in no. 29. Much as he and I cross swords frequently, at least his here is a thoughtful discussion of the topic.

[mrbaracuda]

"Bearmobiles"

Hook me up, I'm all ears!

[BPSCG]

BPSCG - out of curiosity would you say you are proud of who you are?Ugh - that gets into all kinds of metaphysics. Where is the "me" in BPSCG?

I am what I am, and being very much a determinist, recognize that what I am is entirely the result of outside influences over which I have no control - education, training, the actions of others - and internal influences over which I have no control - my genes.

You could make a very strong argument that a determinist believes that man is therefore nothing more than a very complex machine, subject to all the laws of physics that the rest of nature is subject to, and that there is therefore no such thing as free will. Mark Twain makes this argument very powerfully in his essay, What is Man? (http://www.yesselman.com/TwainSpn.htm) as did Baruch Spinoza in his The Ethics. Twain said that just as it is silly to give a sewing machine the credit for its own performance, it is just as silly to give a man the credit for his own accomplishments.

There are very few thinkers I respect more than Twain and Spinoza. Anyone who thinks he's even begun to plumb the depths of Twain's wisdom by reading Huckleberry Finn should disabuse himself of the notion.

So am I proud of who I am? Do you think I should be?

I pay my taxes. Should I be proud of doing so, or do I do so simply because I don't want to go to jail?

I go to work each day. Should I be proud for doing so, or do I do so simply because I want a salary so I can eat?

I keep my yard clean. Should I be proud for doing so, or do I do so simply because I don't want my neighbors to hate me?

I wrote some nifty computer code this morning. Should I be proud for doing so, or do I do so simply because I have been trained to do it?

The answer is, yes, I am proud of the fact that I do those things. But on reflection, I realize that I do them because I can do no other; I am as much a prisoner of my own makeup as a sewing machine is, and deserve no more praise - or blame - for my actions than for any accident of my birth. Have I ever done one single thing that wasn't dictated by the essence of my own being? No.

And to answer your question, in a careless moment, I would say that yes, I am proud of who I am. But on reflection, I recognize that what I am is a temporary organization of the atoms of the universe, atoms which have existed for billions of years, not one of which has ever, for the slightest fraction of a second, been exempt from the rigid laws of the universe, and there's no reason to believe that those atoms somehow became exempt from those laws some fifty-odd years ago.

If I thought they had, I would then answer your question affirmatively and without qualification.

ETA: I strongly urge anyone who thinks he has free will to read Twain's essay I linked to above. The guy who posted it included both his own commentary (in green text) and links to Spinoza's writings that are stunning in how closely they parallel Twain's essay. I say stunning because Twain lived over 200 years after Spinoza, and there's no evidence he'd ever come across Spinoza's writings; it appears he came to the same conclusions regarding free will as Spinoza did independently.

[ponderingturtle]

I'm trying to see if there's any sense at all in the above two posts.


You seems to have entirely focused on parades, so I am trying to determine if you simply hate any parade, or is there some legitimate reason you can see to have a parade? All parades are in honor of something, many of them things that you feel should not be honored in the fashion of taking pride from.

So by looking at more right wing favored parades I was trying to determine what parades you support.

You seem to be all over the map with your assertions and claims here.

[grayman]

I was born and raised in the Northampton/Amherst area of Massachusetts. Northampton is, without a doubt, the lesbian capitol of the northeast.

Since the thread is about the Governor's daughter coming out, I am reminded of a comment made by my instructor in my Victorian Literature class at UMass. She stated," Some of my friends are true lesbians, but most are just on the four-year college plan." :)

[BPSCG]

You seems to have entirely focused on parades, Oh, knock it off. I bring up, almost as an afterthought, the fact that a Jew Pride parade is almost as difficult to spot as Bigfoot, as a means of pointing out that not every oppressed minority group goes around making mass public proclamations about how proud they are of their particular brand of minorityism, and when the topic lurched off into a discussion of whether that was accurate or not, you decided I seem "to have entirely focused on parades..."

Cripes. Try to see the larger discussion, okay?

so I am trying to determine if you simply hate any parade, or is there some legitimate reason you can see to have a parade? All parades are in honor of something, many of them things that you feel should not be honored in the fashion of taking pride from.I don't give a rat's butt about parades, okay? You want a parade, start your own.

So by looking at more right wing favored parades I was trying to determine what parades you support.The Fourth of July is a "right wing favored parade"? :boggled:

You seem to be all over the map with your assertions and claims here.And you seem to be unable to get a grip on the actual discussion at hand, which is why should anyone be proud or ashamed of being gay.

[BPSCG]

I was born and raised in the Northampton/Amherst area of Massachusetts. Northampton is, without a doubt, the lesbian capitol of the northeast. You mean there's a large, domed building where they all hang out?

[Terry]

Oh, knock it off. I bring up, almost as an afterthought, the fact that a Jew Pride parade is almost as difficult to spot as Bigfoot, as a means of pointing out that not every oppressed minority group [B][I]goes around making mass public proclamations about how proud they are of their particular brand of minorityism

This would be the minority that has it's own country?

[GreyICE]

Oh, knock it off. I bring up, almost as an afterthought, the fact that a Jew Pride parade is almost as difficult to spot as Bigfoot, as a means of pointing out that not every oppressed minority group goes around making mass public proclamations about how proud they are of their particular brand of minorityism, and when the topic lurched off into a discussion of whether that was accurate or not, you decided I seem "to have entirely focused on parades..." Okay, please point out how there's a massive lobby working hard to prevent Jews from marrying.

Or preventing Jewish spouses from having equal rights to non-Jewish spouses.

Or maybe to prevent Jews from serving in the military.


Come on. Am waiting here. Please demonstrate this oppression.

[BPSCG]

Okay, please point out how there's a massive lobby working hard to prevent Jews from marrying.

Or preventing Jewish spouses from having equal rights to non-Jewish spouses.

Or maybe to prevent Jews from serving in the military.


Come on. Am waiting here. Please demonstrate this oppression.Are you trying to say that unless Jews were oppressed in the same way that gays are oppressed, there's no meaningful comparison?

Or are you saying there's no history of antisemitic discrimination in the U.S.?

[Beerina]

http://www.baywindows.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=75834



Access Denied



Your request was denied because of its content categorization: "LGBT"

Sigh. :rolleyes:

[Cleon]

Beerina, I think your post says it all, really.

[Darat]

Well as we all know teh gay is catching - I mean if we let them parade around in the streets we might all catch it.

[DoubtingStephen]

http://www.baywindows.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=75834



Access Denied



Your request was denied because of its content categorization: "LGBT"

Sigh. :rolleyes:

Hopefully you don't have trouble accessing Jewish content, or left-handed people content. Or Italian, Irish...

Here is a link to Channel 10 (http://www.turnto10.com/northeast/jar/news.apx.-content-articles-JAR-2008-06-12-0014.html) in Providence, the one in Rhode Island.

I'm assuming you are at work, hopefully your employer is not concerned that WJAR has got teh gey.

[mrbaracuda]

Still interested in "Bearmobiles"! I have to know, Cleon! http://forums.mapcore.net/images/smilies/emot-arghfist.gif:(

This? (http://lh3.google.com/_ZU5T6hMvwAY/RwCJl3uQBSI/AAAAAAAAAFU/HSiyeydvSN4/s800/DSC02130.JPG) That's crazy! And delicious!

[Ladewig]

Are you trying to say that unless Jews were oppressed in the same way that gays are oppressed, there's no meaningful comparison?

Or are you saying there's no history of antisemitic discrimination in the U.S.?

Of course there is. Restricted hotels fall into the category of living memory. However when we look at the two groups today, we see that 92% of Americans would vote for a well-qualified Jew for president and only 55% of Americans would vote for a well-qualified homosexual(citation (http://www.religioustolerance.org/amer_intol.htm)). After 9/11, no popular and influential minister said that Jews helped kill 3000 people.

I see your point BPSCG and I agree that it might be inappropriately named, but I am willing to cut them some slack given the regrettably large number of folks walking around who describe homosexuality as something between a treatable mental disorder and an unforgivable abomination.

[GreyICE]

Are you trying to say that unless Jews were oppressed in the same way that gays are oppressed, there's no meaningful comparison?

Or are you saying there's no history of antisemitic discrimination in the U.S.?History? Yes. Currently? Not much. Certainly no large, active lobby working against them quite openly and publically.

[BPSCG]

I see your point BPSCG and I agree that it might be inappropriately named, but I am willing to cut them some slack given the regrettably large number of folks walking around who describe homosexuality as something between a treatable mental disorder and an unforgivable abomination.I submit that proclaiming gay pride is counterproductive, it's self-defeating. Why? Because when you're proud of something, you're proud because you're somehow better and different from other people. You're proud of something that sets you apart. The problem for gays is that too much of society already sees them as being set apart, as being different in important ways from the rest of society.

The message they should be sending is, "Yeah, we're gay. So what?"

Because really, the only thing that makes gays different from straights is something that in no way hurts or disadvantages straights. The message should be, "We're pretty much like everyone else, with only one major difference that shouldn't be important to anyone." That's how you change minds, how you win acceptance. It doesn't have the "I feel good about myself" cachet that "gay and proud" does, but I believe it would be a lot more effective in winning hearts and minds.

And isn't that the whole point?

[Cleon]

Still interested in "Bearmobiles"! I have to know, Cleon! http://forums.mapcore.net/images/smilies/emot-arghfist.gif:(

This? (http://lh3.google.com/_ZU5T6hMvwAY/RwCJl3uQBSI/AAAAAAAAAFU/HSiyeydvSN4/s800/DSC02130.JPG) That's crazy! And delicious!

Er, no.

A "bear" is a large, hairy, gay man.

Pride marches (at least the Atlanta one, which is rather large) frequently involve floats, or buses, or other vehicles which people decorate and (often) party on. The "Bearmobiles" are the floats/buses/whatever that are geared toward the bears and their fans.

[mrbaracuda]

I was wondering why it's available and when I could use it, but the time has come and I shan't let it pass me by!

:istraight

:D

[mrbaracuda]

Er, no.

A "bear" is a large, hairy, gay man.

Pride marches (at least the Atlanta one, which is rather large) frequently involve floats, or buses, or other vehicles which people decorate and (often) party on. The "Bearmobiles" are the floats/buses/whatever that are geared toward the bears and their fans.

Oh. Thanks. So basically a guy like this (http://www.fugly.com/ornot/fugly/images/upload/hairy_man_copy.jpg) on a float. Interesting.

[Cleon]

Oh. Thanks. So basically a guy like this (http://www.fugly.com/ornot/fugly/images/upload/hairy_man_copy.jpg) on a float. Interesting.

Not quite. More like a bunch of big biker dudes. With leather n' stuff.

[DoubtingStephen]

You make some good points, Beeps, but I see no reason why both concepts can not coexist.

During the early 90s when I was blossoming into my current manifestation as a militant atheist fag (http://atheistfag.com/) there was a group called Queer Nation. My friend who made The Closet Door was a very active member, and he frequently was involved in actions, as they were called. "We're here, we're Queer, get used to it" was the group's most famous slogan, often chanted during gay pride parades. People have gotten used to the fact that queers exist, although as we all know there are some who still need to get over it.

We have retaken the word queer, the negative baggage formerly attached to that word is so much diminished that it has since been used in the title of popular TV shows.

Around the same time frame Bill Clinton claimed briefly to be a friend of the queer community, but he backed off quite dramatically when it was no longer politically expedient. Thus our current requirement for gay service persons to closet themselves.

Politicians like Gavin Newsom who are courageous enough to take a moral and political stand in public against bigotry and not back down in the face of Fundamentalist hatred are, unfortunately, few and far between.

Until the day when homophobic bigots are as justly afraid to spew their hate in public, (let alone as a career (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Sheldon)) in the same way that anti-semitic bigots are now quite justifiably afraid to do, I think the need for gay pride parades will continue.

Get used to it.

[GreyICE]

I submit that proclaiming gay pride is counterproductive, it's self-defeating. Why? Because when you're proud of something, you're proud because you're somehow better and different from other people. You're proud of something that sets you apart. The problem for gays is that too much of society already sees them as being set apart, as being different in important ways from the rest of society.

The message they should be sending is, "Yeah, we're gay. So what?"
I submit that you are wrong. What they should be saying is "We are human. We are unique individuals. We are proud of who we are, and part of who we are is gay. We want all gay individuals to know that there are other people out there who understand them, and have gone through the same thing, and it's not something they have to hide or be ashamed of."

Being gay is not "So what." It is part of who they are.

Because really, the only thing that makes gays different from straights is something that in no way hurts or disadvantages straights. I happen to be good at math. Do I disadvantage people who are bad at math? Should I not be proud of my skill at math?

The message should be, "We're pretty much like everyone else, with only one major difference that shouldn't be important to anyone." That's how you change minds, how you win acceptance. It doesn't have the "I feel good about myself" cachet that "gay and proud" does, but I believe it would be a lot more effective in winning hearts and minds. Yes, the sit down and shut up approach historically has worked quite well.

They should be proud of who they are. And they should not need anyone else's approval. So what's the big deal?

[mrbaracuda]

Not quite. More like a bunch of big biker dudes. With leather n' stuff.

Oh. Okay. (http://www.geocities.com/sfphototour/images/gayp_leather.jpg) ;) Looked like you put an emphasis on hairy.

[Darat]

I submit that proclaiming gay pride is counterproductive, it's self-defeating. Why? Because when you're proud of something, you're proud because you're somehow better and different from other people. You're proud of something that sets you apart. The problem for gays is that too much of society already sees them as being set apart, as being different in important ways from the rest of society.

The message they should be sending is, "Yeah, we're gay. So what?"

...snip...

And isn't that the whole point?
Interesting how you state it (bold by me) :"We're pretty much like everyone else, with only one major difference that shouldn't be important to anyone" that aside.

You seem to be ignoring the historical context of the "gay pride" phrase - which as I mentioned earlier was a reaction to the message of "You should be ashamed of yourself because of 'one major difference'".

Today the term "gay pride" is just a handy label - as I said earlier you seem to getting hung-up on a historic phrase rather than anything of substance.

[mrbaracuda]

DoubtingStephen, are you proud of being gay?

[DoubtingStephen]

DoubtingStephen, are you proud of being gay?

No, I am no more proud of being gay than I am proud of having lovely blue eyes. I'm proud of the fact that I make no effort to conceal the fact that I am gay. I'm proud that I do not take any crap about being gay.

[Darat]

Since I aksed BPSCG that question I should perhaps answer it.

No I am not proud of being gay.


However (as the word is commonly used without all the metaphysical gubbins) I am proud of being me and since I am gay if you tell me that I should be ashamed of myself because I am gay I am going to tell you that no I am proud of being me no matter what you may think.

I am not defined by my sexuality but my sexuality is part of my defintion.

[BPSCG]

I submit that you are wrong. What they should be saying is "We are human. We are unique individuals. We are proud of who we are, and part of who we are is gay.Why should anyone be proud of being gay? Is it some sort of accomplishment? Why should anyone be proud of something he is no more responsible for than the color of his eyes?

If a black man can say he's black and proud, should I be able to say that I'm white and proud of it?
If a gay man can say he's gay and proud, should I be able to say that I'm straight and proud of it?
Should I be able to say I'm proud that I'm an American?
Should I be able to say I'm proud that I'm a man?

(Funny thing is, most of the time when you hear someone say, "I'm a native-born white heterosexual American man, and I'm proud of it," it's right before he says the country's being ruined by wetbacks, *****, fags, and feminazis.)

We want all gay individuals to know that there are other people out there who understand them, and have gone through the same thing, and it's not something they have to hide or be ashamed of." And that's what I said right up front. Pride is the opposite of shame, and just as there's no logical reason to be ashamed of homosexuality, there's no logical reason to be proud of it either.

Being gay is not "So what." It is part of who they are. So is being left-handed. Should that be a source of pride also?

Should I not be proud of my skill at math? See my lengthy reply to Darat's earlier question about whether or not I'm proud of who I am. The essence of my answer is "no."

They should be proud of who they are. Why? What is praiseworthy about being gay?

Is someone a better person for being gay? If not, what's praiseworthy about it?

If being gay is not praiseworthy, why should it be a source of pride?

[mrbaracuda]

No, I am no more proud of being gay than I am proud of having lovely blue eyes. I'm proud of the fact that I make no effort to conceal the fact that I am gay. I'm proud that I do not take any crap about being gay.

:)

I am proud of having lovely blue eyes.

Oh stop it you queer! :D
Does you being gay have anything to do with you being an atheist? That's some thing I can't comprehend; God creating gays and wanting them dead at the same time is bizarre.

In other news:

http://b.imagehost.org/0475/Clipboard01.jpg

[BPSCG]

Since I aksed BPSCG that question I should perhaps answer it. Are you proud of being black? :scarper:

[BPSCG]

No, I am no more proud of being gay than I am proud of having lovely blue eyes. I'm proud of the fact that I make no effort to conceal the fact that I am gay. I'm proud that I do not take any crap about being gay.Bingo. :clap:

[mrbaracuda]

Bingo. :clap:

"Out of the closet parade", would that be better, Beeps? :rolleyes::D

[DoubtingStephen]

:)
Does you being gay have anything to do with you being an atheist? That's some thing I can't comprehend; God creating gays and wanting them dead at the same time is bizarre.


I became an atheist a short time before I became aware of how hot so many of my classmates were.

I realized and internalized my atheism while still a student in a Catholic High School, largely after 2 events:

1) I learned to masturbate
2) The Church said I'd go to hell for masturbating

It was overwhelmingly obvious to me that masturbation was absolutely not bad. I was 14 at the time, so what should we expect? That conflict prompted me to re-evaluate everything I had been taught about viciously hot-tempered sky fairies.

Then, as I refined my technique as an atheist masturbator I began to notice that while conducting these practice sessions my fantasies always involved one gender.

Fortunately or unfortunately, as the case may be, I persisted for many years with the fiction popular in the middle of the 20th century that I'd grow out of it. This is why I am a father and a grandfather.

I suppose we all play "what if" as we ponder the course our lives have taken, I certainly do. I'm glad to be a father, my kids are wonderful human beings. But I'm also pleased that I finally did find my true self, and I'm glad I went to Starbucks in Sunnyvale to get some (burnt) coffee one rainy Sunday in November 1996.

[Darat]

So you caught teh gay from Starbucks?

[pgwenthold]

Governor Duval is on record as a staunch supporter of equal rights for all citizens of the Bay State,

IIRC, Massachusetts is a Commonwealth, not a state.

[DoubtingStephen]

So you caught teh gay from Starbucks?

Well, not directly :)

Let's say I was not the only person there that day.

[DoubtingStephen]

IIRC, Massachusetts is a Commonwealth, not a state.

It is indeed a Commonwealth, but it is also very well known as the Bay State. It is one of the 50.

There must be hundreds of businesses, schools, and social organizations in Massachusetts with Bay State in their names.

Google "Bay State".

[BPSCG]

Interesting how you state it (bold by me) :"We're pretty much like everyone else, with only one major difference that shouldn't be important to anyone" that aside.Argh... I was casting about for the right word, couldn't find it. Perhaps "noteworthy" or "obvious" would have been better.

You seem to be ignoring the historical context of the "gay pride" phrase - which as I mentioned earlier was a reaction to the message of "You should be ashamed of yourself because of 'one major difference'".
But you don't right a wrong by being wrong in the opposite direction. You don't right 250 years of American black slavery by instituting 250 years of white slavery. You don't right 100 years of Jim Crow laws (laws that enforced segregation and otherwise denied blacks their civil rights) by instituting 100 years of special advantages for blacks (though many proponents of affirmative action would argue you should do just that).

And similarly, you don't reverse centuries of being told you should be ashamed of being gay by bragging that you're proud to be gay. It's just as wrong, and while the damage the message causes is less obvious and more insidious, it is just no less destructive.

[mrbaracuda]

So you caught teh gay from Starbucks?

He might have caught it from Catholic High School! :eek::D
Thanks for explaining, DoubtingStephen.

[DoubtingStephen]

It's just as wrong, and while the damage the message causes is less obvious and more insidious, it is just no less destructive.

There might be other people in this thread who are in a better position to make that call.

[ponderingturtle]

(Funny thing is, most of the time when you hear someone say, "I'm a native-born white heterosexual American man, and I'm proud of it," it's right before he says the country's being ruined by wetbacks, n*gg*rs, fags, and feminazis.)

Which is why the saint patrics day parades need to be the victim of more ridicule. Everyone knows after all that it was the Irish that ruined this country.

It really seems that if it was "Stonewall Day" parades you would not care but label it as "Gay Pride" Parades and you have a major fit.

[BPSCG]

Which is why the saint patrics day parades need to be the victim of more ridicule. Everyone knows after all that it was the Irish that ruined this country.

It really seems that if it was "Stonewall Day" parades you would not care but label it as "Gay Pride" Parades and you have a major fit.Still going on about the parades I see, with a couple of strawmen thrown in for good measure.

Go ahead, knock yourself out. I hope you won't object if I don't care to play.

[ponderingturtle]

Oh, knock it off. I bring up, almost as an afterthought, the fact that a Jew Pride parade is almost as difficult to spot as Bigfoot, as a means of pointing out that not every oppressed minority group goes around making mass public proclamations about how proud they are of their particular brand of minorityism, and when the topic lurched off into a discussion of whether that was accurate or not, you decided I seem "to have entirely focused on parades..."

THe point is that there are jewish pride events, and you totaly discounted them. So it really seems to be not the issue of pride events, but pride parades that you are addressing as you ignored any suggestion of no parade events(and still do).

ANd it would well seem that the Jewish responce to the german american bund would have been very similar to a jewish pride event in NYC.

Cripes. Try to see the larger discussion, okay?

I see all kinds of goalpost moving on your part.


And you seem to be unable to get a grip on the actual discussion at hand, which is why should anyone be proud or ashamed of being gay.

And why pride parades where bad things, but you do not seem to be generalizing your condemnation of pride parades to events started for much the same reasons.

[ponderingturtle]

Still going on about the parades I see, with a couple of strawmen thrown in for good measure.

Go ahead, knock yourself out. I hope you won't object if I don't care to play.

THen maybe you should go back and actualy address issues of jewish pride events and not simply dismiss them by saying that there is not jewish pride parade.

[Rufo]

Can't the parade and the whole "gay pride" concept (besides the anti-shame aspect of the expression) be seen as pride of being openly gay, like the pride DoubtingStephen feels? It does take quite some effort in this day and age (not to mention previous days and ages), so I'd say it's something to be proud of.

[Darat]

Absolutely Rufo, talk to many people attending these events (that have a view on the political and civil liberties aspects) and you will find many will express such a view.

Next we'll be told using the word "gay" is wrong because it used to mean....

[Complexity]

I've don't understand why someone should be proud of being gay, or black, or white, or left-handed, or anything else one has no control over.


I've been gay all of my life and it took me a long time to understand the Gay Pride thing.

It isn't that I'm proud of being gay - I'm proud of having finally allowed myself to be... myself.

I've gone through a lot to get here, and much it wasn't pleasant. I've spent most of my 51 years leading two lives, and the effect on my self esteem and mental health was bad.

I've come through it alive and increasingly mentally healthy.

I'm proud to have survived with my sense of humor and my humanity intact.

I'm proud to finally become comfortable in my own skin.

I'm proud of having the public me and the private me be whole and the same.

I'm finally proud to be me.

[Darat]

Well put Complexity.

[Darat]

Thankfully I've not had that a rough time over being homosexual in my life (beaten up a couple of times, spat on, been denied at least one promotion, problems with neighbours - graffiti and the like and pretty much constant low grade abuse throughout my life) but I do understand how for some people because of all that they've been through it is important to be able to use a phrase like "Gay Pride" to help express the exhilaration of just being themselves.

[DoubtingStephen]

I've been gay all of my life and it took me a long time to understand the Gay Pride thing.

It isn't that I'm proud of being gay - I'm proud of having finally allowed myself to be... myself.

I've gone through a lot to get here, and much it wasn't pleasant. I've spent most of my 51 years leading two lives, and the effect on my self esteem and mental health was bad.

I've come through it alive and increasingly mentally healthy.

I'm proud to have survived with my sense of humor and my humanity intact.

I'm proud to finally become comfortable in my own skin.

I'm proud of having the public me and the private me be whole and the same.

I'm finally proud to be me.

Nominated with tears in my eyes

[Travis]

A world in which one doesn't have to be proud of being Gay is a world in which one is not pressured into feeling ashamed of being Gay. I think that is a worthy goal to work towards. As such the necessity of Gay Pride is correlated to the forces that work to suppress it. We should endeavor towards ending the necessity of proclaiming Gay Pride and not the existence of that pride itself.

[Ladewig]

When I read this post:
That's how you change minds, how you win acceptance. It doesn't have the "I feel good about myself" cachet that "gay and proud" does, but I believe it would be a lot more effective in winning hearts and minds.


I was satisfied that it was a simple matter of beliefs. You believe the most popular method currently used (celebrating gay pride) is not the most effective while many gays believe that is is the most effective.

Then I read this post


And similarly, you don't reverse centuries of being told you should be ashamed of being gay by bragging that you're proud to be gay. It's just as wrong, and while the damage the message causes is less obvious and more insidious, it is just no less destructive.

"No less destructive"?! I'll consider your point that it can be damaging, but I am having a hard time accepting that it is just as damaging. Are you suggesting that gay teens are committing suicide from having too much pride? I ask because there are a lot of gay teens committing suicide because they succumb to the message that gay is something to be ashamed of.

[WildCat]

I will miss what was by far the best politician float in the Chicago Pride Parade - that of former Cook County State's Attorney Dick Devine. You can't make that stuff up!

This years parade will be Dick-less. ;)

[ShowerComic]

I've don't understand why someone should be proud of being gay, or black, or white, or left-handed, or anything else one has no control over.

Quoting the Boston Globe Story - "It's not only something we accept, but it's something we're very proud of." Gov. Patrick 6/13/08

To me this sounds like poor use of English. or overuse of political correctness. As with other aspects one has no control over, Yes I'm a Homo-nid (hominid), biped, of the genera homo etc.

However that they are accepting of her living life as a lesbian, welcoming her female lover yes. All well and good, and we should be proud of Gov. Patrick for this. Unlike for example Alan Keyes (same article) who thew his daughter out of the house.

But the Gay movement has at it's core an idea that we are born Gay, Straight, or Bi. (or at least that it is not a matter of choice). In this manner it is like saying one is proud of having a learning disability or mental disease. (bipolar, ADHD, Wilson's Disease)

One is proud of the individual who overcomes these unique challenges. One should not be proud of one who uses them as an excuse. -- I can't learn, so the system owes me. vs. I can learn, but it takes me more time.

[zooterkin]

But the Gay movement has at it's core an idea that we are born Gay, Straight, or Bi. (or at least that it is not a matter of choice). In this manner it is like saying one is proud of having a learning disability or mental disease. (bipolar, ADHD, Wilson's Disease)

One is proud of the individual who overcomes these unique challenges. One should not be proud of one who uses them as an excuse. -- I can't learn, so the system owes me. vs. I can learn, but it takes me more time.

So, you think being gay is a disability, something to be overcome?

[Ian Osborne]

So, you think being gay is a disability, something to be overcome?

It is if society makes it so.

[mrbaracuda]

So, you think being gay is a disability, something to be overcome?

Oh please. Missed this sentence by any chance?

the Gay movement has at it's core an idea that we are born Gay, Straight, or Bi. (...) In this manner it is like saying one is proud of having a learning disability or mental disease.

Not comprehending ShowerComic's remark about using it as an excuse (unless he means something like all that self-imposed equality mumbo-jumbo when it comes to jobs and other things in life; at least here in Germany you got "anti-discrimination laws" where a gay person could very well use his gayness as a kind of excuse or take advantage of his sexual orientation), I think what he tries to say is, like Beeps, you shouldn't be proud of your precondition (assuming the gay movement is indeed saying it in the manner ShowerComic described it in), but when you live with it and overcome the challenges it might pose, like people with disabilities (their precondition) should be proud when they overcome their precondition. Maybe not the best way to put it, but you should get the idea.

Or I am wrong and ShowerComic means it as you said. :D

[zooterkin]

Oh please. Missed this sentence by any chance?

Please, yourself.


Not comprehending ShowerComic's remark about using it as an excuse (unless he means something like all that self-imposed equality mumbo-jumbo when it comes to jobs and other things in life; at least here in Germany you got "anti-discrimination laws" where a gay person could very well use his gayness as a kind of excuse or take advantage of his sexual orientation), I think what he tries to say is, like Beeps, you shouldn't be proud of your precondition (assuming the gay movement is indeed saying it in the manner ShowerComic described it in), but when you live with it and overcome the challenges it might pose, like people with disabilities (their precondition) should be proud when they overcome their precondition. Maybe not the best way to put it, but you should get the idea.

Or I am wrong and ShowerComic means it as you said. :D

I was trying to find out exactly what ShowerComic meant. I wanted to read it the way you have, but the analogy doesn't work for me, plus there is the bit in the next paragraph:
One is proud of the individual who overcomes these unique challenges.

So, again, simply being gay is a challenge? If you're going to make an analogy, surely the position is much closer to that of being from a minority subject to racism, where the challenges are those from society rather than something inherent in being a different colour, not something like disability, where the disability itself needs to be overcome as well as any prejudice.

As to BPSCG, he's missing the context. As already explained, the 'pride' is a reaction to being told you should be ashamed. There's no good reason why you should be ashamed of being gay, yet that's exactly what people have been told, so it is a natural reaction to assert the opposite preemptively. Yes, it would be much preferable to have a society where this is not necessary, but we're not there yet, and many people would take silence as admission of shame, so why not speak out?

[zooterkin]

It is if society makes it so.

Well, indeed, but the examples that were given,
a learning disability or mental disease. (bipolar, ADHD, Wilson's Disease)

are all disabilities regardless of what society does. Being gay is not inherently a disability. Maybe it's just a poorly chosen analogy, but that's what I was trying to find out.

[Ian Osborne]

Well, indeed, but the examples that were given, [a learning disability or mental disease. (bipolar, ADHD, Wilson's Disease)] are all disabilities regardless of what society does. Being gay is not inherently a disability. Maybe it's just a poorly chosen analogy, but that's what I was trying to find out.

It's true that society might grow to the point where being gay is in no way a disability while the disabling effects of the other examples given can only be reduced and never fully conquered. This, of course, is because the disabling effects of being gay are wholly down to the reactions of others, unlike, say, bipolar, ADHD and Wilson's Disease. However, is this distinction really pertinent? As long as there's a Fred Phelps, being gay will be - to some extent - a disability.

Maybe that's why we need gay 'pride' demos...

[mrbaracuda]

Please, yourself.

fbGkxcY7YFU

What what? :boggled::D
And here I thought "Where does Southpark get all that weird stuff from (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6lP7_3t_VQ)?