Water powered car

[Ranb]

http://www.electronicsinfoline.com/News/New_Gadgets/Automobile/future-cars-to-run-on-water-only.html

“The new fuel cell system- Water Energy System (WES) developed by Genepax, Japan uses water as a fuel and does not emit CO2. The system can generate power just by supplying water and air to the fuel and air electrodes, respectively.”

“In addition, the 300W system was mounted in the luggage room of a compact electric vehicle "Reva" manufactured by Takeoka Mini Car Products Co Ltd, and the vehicle was actually driven by the system.”

The articles I have seen do not give many details, such as the air supply and what power is required to keep the system running. 300 watts equals about 0.4 horsepower. I wonder how fast this car can travel. They do claim 80 km on a liter of water.

Ranb

[Ron_Tomkins]

Aaawwww those japanese. Always at it. Always.

[JJM]

This has been done http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=56705

[TheDaver]

Not enough info, but it sounds like they’re using some other consumable to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen.

I bet it runs very clean, but costs a fortune.

[Ranb]

The link above originating in 2006 does not seem to be about the Japanese Genepax car. Not sure if the claims are the same as the article I referenced in the OP has so little info. I did a search on Genepax before I posted and did not get any hits.

The article says the the unit costs about $18000. While it would be very nice to have something producing electiricty with only water input, I am not buying it for now. Reuters has also reported on this. Are they that easy to fool?

Ranb

[Horatius]

They claim that they've developed a new "membrane electrode assembly", that lets them extract hydrogen from water to run a fuel cell.

In a brief patent search, I found that such assemblies do seem to exist for fuel cells, but so far, all of them seem to use methanol as the fuel, and produce water as an output. For example, from US Patent 5 992 008: (http://www.google.com/patents?id=xWIWAAAAEBAJ&dq=5992008)


A METHOD OF FORMING A MEMBRANE ELECTRODE ASSEMBLY AND ITS USE IN A FUEL CELL
Origin of the Invention The invention described herein was made in the performance of work under a NASA contract, and is subject to the provisions of Public Law 96-517 (35 USC 202) in which the Contractor has elected to retain title.
Field
This disclosure relates to direct feed methanol fuel cells and in particular fuel cell electrodes with reduced catalyst loading levels.
Background Fuel cells are electrochemical cells in which a free energy change resulting from a fuel oxidation reaction is converted into electrical energy. Fuel cells may be an alternative to the combustion of nonrenewable fossil fuels. Fuel cells produce by-products including carbon dioxide and water.


So, maybe someone slipped their car a mickey?

[trvlr2]

RanB- Yes, this one is different. The other guys were largely electrolyzing water to get H2 & O2, putting it in ICE, claiming it "ran on water", not exactly the case.

In the article cited, the membrane of the fuel cell contains something referred to as a "fuel" to get the H2 &O2 for further use.
This is different, but the membrane, if consumed, must be considered fuel, as well.
But, if it promotes water to break down into atomic components, as a catalyst, or just whatever, less expensively than other methods, this may be something to cheer about.
Maybe.

[DoubtingStephen]

Obviously if their car really did run on just water and air, the NWO Detroit/Toyota alliance would have stolen the prototype, had them all killed, then used those flashy things to make us all forget these brilliant physicists ever existed.

That's what usually happens. Wait, what was this thread about? What happened to the OP?

[technoextreme]

They claim that they've developed a new "membrane electrode assembly", that lets them extract hydrogen from water to run a fuel cell.


So it belongs in the land of fairies and pixies.
But, if it promotes water to break down into atomic components, as a catalyst, or just whatever, less expensively than other methods, this may be something to cheer about.
If it does this it's a hoax.
In a brief patent search, I found that such assemblies do seem to exist for fuel cells, but so far, all of them seem to use methanol as the fuel, and produce water as an output. For example, from US Patent 5 992 008:

It's a part of Proton Exchange Membrane fuel cells not something that exists for fuel cells.

[grayman]

I did a search and found a site that sells cars that really do run on water. Link here (http://www.watercar.com/).

[trvlr2]

well, Techno- they
1. Didn't claim over unity.
2.Didn't claim quantum effects, yet.
3. Have a working model
4. Didn't ask for money

Possibly, they have found something that may work, in our world, not just the land of pixies.
Catalysts being somewhat non-intuitive, it may just be workable.
My personal incredulity, pimple cream catalyzes polyesters.

[trvlr2]

Greyman- they called 'em Amphicars when I was a kid. Had tires & props. Did not navigate grass flats well. Didn't do well in salt water, either.

[DoubtingStephen]

I did a search and found a site that sells cars that really do run on water. Link here (http://www.watercar.com/).

Wow, I bet you never have to add more water either! :D

[technoextreme]

well, Techno- they
1. Didn't claim over unity.
2.Didn't claim quantum effects, yet.
3. Have a working model
4. Didn't ask for money

Actually from what I've been reading it seems like they are claiming number one or something extremely close which is why my ******** meter is off the scale. Essentially what they are claiming is that they adapted a commonly used technique to create to hydrogen and somehow made it last significantly longer.
PS:
I just remembered it's possible to flood a fuel cell with water so it becomes inoperable. How the hell do they get away with pumping the dam thing with water.

[casebro]

There is the plan to use an aluminum oxide too. All you add is water, and get electricity out. Of course, the alumina is acting as a battery, and has to be recharged by exchanging it for a rebuilt one. But in the meantime, "you car runs on water". My pastey white behind it does. It may be an efficient battery though. Now all we need is a souce for that there lectricicitiy.

[technoextreme]

There is the plan to use an aluminum oxide too. All you add is water, and get electricity out. Of course, the alumina is acting as a battery, and has to be recharged by exchanging it for a rebuilt one. But in the meantime, "you car runs on water". My pastey white behind it does. It may be an efficient battery though. Now all we need is a souce for that there lectricicitiy.
Yeah but apparently that's still more expensive than buying gasoline though the price quoted in the article was $3.00. Though that is a very interesting way to store hydrogen and it appears to be very safe. This process is very vague.

[trvlr2]

Actually from what I've been reading it seems like they are claiming number one or something extremely close which is why my ******** meter is off the scale. Essentially what they are claiming is that they adapted a commonly used technique to create to hydrogen and somehow made it last significantly longer.
PS:
I just remembered it's possible to flood a fuel cell with water so it becomes inoperable. How the hell do they get away with pumping the dam thing with water.

I must admit I really wish that this might be a breakthrough. I also put a lot of hedges in there, as well.
I am willing to wait a while, to see. (I have a choice?)
BTW, Denny Klein has an office 4 miles from here-have seen nothing from him, but IW prattle. And, there's been time enough for some result.

[technoextreme]

I must admit I really wish that this might be a breakthrough. I also put a lot of hedges in there, as well.
I am willing to wait a while, to see. (I have a choice?)

Typically, if this was a major breakthrough they wouldn't be this silent about it. The lack of information about the technology is comparable to perpetual motion devices. Fortunately, some of the news outlets are using the words alleged and supposedly. Scientists would be dancing up and down the streets publishing multiple papers. We wouldn't have to wait to see if it worked. Of course this is a slight conjecture on my part as to why it seems way to fishy.

[trvlr2]

Good points, Techno. But, if there might be a really unique catalyst, it is possible that things might be close held for a while longer.
I know, I know--Wish in one hand.....But, if you haven't eaten in some time,happiness is filling 'em both!

[a_unique_person]

Steorn is going to be so jealous.

[Horatius]

On spec, I decided to do a patent search on "Water energy system". I found a Japanese patent application JP2006244714A2: WATER ENERGY SYSTEM:

PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide a water energy system generating electric power using pure water as fuel under normal temperature.
SOLUTION: The water energy system 1 has a cell in which a fuel electrode 3 and an oxygen electrode 4 are faced with each other through a catalyst 2 same as a general fuel cell. The fuel electrode 3 is formed by carrying platinum on a sintered body of fine powder of zeolite, coral sand, and carbon black, the oxygen electrode 4 is formed by carrying ruthenium on the sintered body of fine powder of zeolite and carbon black. Electric power is generated under normal temperature by supplying pure water 5 to the fuel electrode 3 and air to the oxygen electrode 4.


Anyone who can read Japanese can get the full text here. (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=JP2006244714&F=0&QPN=JP2006244714) There don't seem to be any non-Japanese versions of this application available, and as it's from 2006, it's unlikely that there are any unpublished versions still hiding, but there may be one in the US.


He also has a Japanese Application from much longer ago (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=JP10077488&F=0), that sounds similar, but doesn't use pure water:

PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide an apparatus for gas energy which can produce gas energy, under low pressure, usable instead of conventional fuels, such as propane by using an aq. alkaline soln., i.e., a 10% aq. caustic soda soln., as water for electrolysis and electrolyzing the aq. alkaline soln.
SOLUTION: This apparatus for gas energy by electrolysis of water comprises: an electrolytic device 1 with a caustic soda soln. having a predetermined concn. introduced as water for electrolysis; a plurality of electrodes which are arranged at predetermined intervals in the electrolytic device 1 and have in their upper parts each a gas port for passage of a gas; a spacer disposed between the plurality of electrodes to form a predetermined electrolysis region between electrodes; an electrical control circuit for applying a predetermined voltage/current to the plurality of electrodes; a cooler 2 for cooling a product gas from the gas port of the plurality of electrodes; a defoaming device 4 having therein a ceramic catalyst for removing foams present in the cooled product gas; and an aq. soln. mixer 7 for mixing a gas from the defoaming device 4 with water and a predetermined filler.


This inventor also has an international application, that (at least on the face) looks to be directed to a more traditional fuel cell (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2007094084&F=0), but as it's also in Japanese, I can't be sure:

A power generation module (4) of a power generation system (1) in which gaskets (43), partition plates (44), and collection plates (45) are stacked on both sides of an electrode junction body (42) between a pair of fastening plates (41). A liquid fuel is supplied from the outside of the fastening plates (41) to an anode side electrode plate (47) through liquid fuel supply ports (41c to 45c) and a liquid fuel supply groove (52) in the surface (51) of a partition plate (55). The air taken into an air inlet port (59) formed in the outer peripheral end faces (55 to 58) of the partition plates is supplied to a cathode side electrode plate (48) through an air supply groove (54) in the other surface (53) thereof. When the electrode junction body (42) and the partition plate (44) are additionally connected in series to each other, a desired power generation capacity can be easily provided.


Of course, there's no indication that this inventor is associated with this new company's car, but it gives us something to discuss. Perhaps someone who knows Japanese (or fuels cells!) could take a look, and report back.

[TheDaver]

Wait, what was this thread about? What happened to the OP?
Cointelpro.

What? Don’t look at me – I’ve already met my quota for the month.

[casebro]

So how much electricity is in water? KWH/KG? Would we need 20 tons of water to get enough power for a sub-compact ?

[TjW]

Well, generally the energy extractable from water will be described by:

mgh + ((mv^2)/2)

There's a place just south of Las Vegas where they extract electricity from water on a large scale.

[TheDaver]

There's a place just south of Las Vegas where they extract electricity from water on a large scale.
Truth is, it’s just an extremely large-scale solar power system.

[casebro]

Well, generally the energy extractable from water will be described by:

mgh + ((mv^2)/2)

There's a place just south of Las Vegas where they extract electricity from water on a large scale.

Cute. But I wasn't asking about mechanical energy. Per the rest of the thread, I asked about ELECTRICAL energy

[damccut]

He also has a Japanese Application from much longer ago (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=JP10077488&F=0), that sounds similar, but doesn't use pure water:

From the main article:
The main feature of the new system is that it uses the company's membrane electrode assembly (MEA), which contains a material capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.
This amounts to having a fuel, but doesn't even specify what chemical is used, how easy it is to replace, or how much it cost.

[casebro]

Electrolysis takes 5 watt hours per gram, is 5 kwh per kilo. So that is how much electrical energy is available form water. One horsepower is 770 watt/min per horse power= 46kwh per horse power hour. Thats 9kg/hph. SOoo, a little ten horse power car needs 200 pounds of water per hour. Some breakthrough there. Pretty good energy density there, plus you'll need to 'reload' some exotic 'fuel' or catalyst erwhatever.

[Modified]

I did a search and found a site that sells cars that really do run on water. Link here (http://www.watercar.com/).

If I won the lottery I would so buy one of those.

[TjW]

Cute. But I wasn't asking about mechanical energy. Per the rest of the thread, I asked about ELECTRICAL energy

There isn't any electrical energy in water. There's potential energy and kinetic energy, and (assuming it's not at absolute zero), some thermal energy.

And of course there's its mass equivalent energy of mc^2.

There isn't any electrical energy in separated H2 and O2, either. There are devices which can turn their potential energy into electrical energy, but that's not quite the same thing.

Talking about a car that runs on water makes about as much sense as talking about a fireplace that burns ashes.

[casebro]

TjW, water is made of hydrogen atoms co-covalently bonded to oxygen atoms. Put in electrons, the bond breaks, leaving separate atoms. Combine the atoms again, you get electrons out. It's the basic science behind batteries and fuel cells both. Lots of electrons fly about in chemistry. Nothing to do with mv2.

[TjW]

Yes, I know. But you will notice that you have to put in the electrons to break the bonds and separate the elements. You don't get electrical energy out.

Ashes also contain atoms bonded together. In principle, there is no reason one could not take all the combustion products from a fire, and, adding energy, recombine them back into the substance that was originally burned. But that doesn't make ashes a good way to heat your house.

[casebro]

Yes, I know. But you will notice that you have to put in the electrons to break the bonds and separate the elements. You don't get electrical energy out.

You do get the electrons back out when the reaction is reversed. How many electrons depends on the chemicals involved.

Mentioned somewhere above is a "fuel electrode". I guess it is consumable, and adds electrons to those available from the water. So saying that the car "runs on water" may be as true as saying a lead/acid battery "runs on water"- plus lead, acid, and a charging system.

[shadron]

It appears that Reuters has picked it up and is spreading the word: On Yahoo, 6/14/8: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080613/lf_nm_life/japan_car_water_dc;_ylt=AuEkZ19Du4dKBDxFkTXDXwlg.3 QA

[robinson]

Stan Meyer's would be pissed. If he was still alive. He already patented that device.

[emerycorp]

I’m new to these forums; I ended up here looking for answers regarding Denny Klein’s outrageous claims and was impressed by your membership commentary and the eventual outcome and conclusions of that thread. Although I have degrees in physics and engineering (licensed mechanical engineer and general contractor) I’ll mostly limit myself to lurking in the background to read your enlightening commentary; but will certainly comment if I have anything helpful to add.

I saw the Reuters news a few days ago about the Water Car; and from the 15 or so youtube videos currently available on the Genepax project found this one of particular interest:

youtube.com/watch?v=qkmqjAl6d3s

Although the audio is in Japanese, there are ending credits posted in English implying Genepax has partnered with KYOCERA, HONDA and SECOM some very rich and heavyweight players adding additional credibility to their project regardless of the science. They obviously think they have something pretty good. This video as well as others on youtube show a bit more of what’s inside the magic box than Reuters plus a rough animation of the chemistry involved.

Steve

p.s. the youtube link I provided is incomplete because the complete link prevented my reply from posting (apparently you all have a rule that new members cannot post any urls until first posting 15 times?). Odd rule, but I'm sure someone here can add the standard prefix missing and repost if there's any interest beyond my own.

[robinson]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/13/genepax-shows-off-water-powered-fuel-cell-vehicle/

First thing I thought of was an aluminum based system to release hydrogen. It looks like a fuel cell is used for electricity.

I winder how long it runs before servicing.

[ponderingturtle]

Electrolysis takes 5 watt hours per gram, is 5 kwh per kilo. So that is how much electrical energy is available form water. One horsepower is 770 watt/min per horse power= 46kwh per horse power hour. Thats 9kg/hph. SOoo, a little ten horse power car needs 200 pounds of water per hour. Some breakthrough there. Pretty good energy density there, plus you'll need to 'reload' some exotic 'fuel' or catalyst erwhatever.

But why would you store the O2 instead of using O2 from the air?

[robinson]

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080616/153301/

June 16 2008
Kiyoshi Hirasawa, president of Genepax Co Ltd, unveiled part of the reaction mechanism of the company's new fuel cell system called "Water Energy System" in an interview with Nikkei Electronics.

The system, which is capable of generating power with water and air, was first presented June 12, 2008. As reported in our previous article, the system produces hydrogen through a chemical reaction between water and a metal (or a metal compound) on the fuel electrode side (See related article).

Genepax uses a metal or a metal compound that can cause an oxidation reaction with water at room temperature, the company said. Metals that react with water include lithium, sodium, magnesium, potassium and calcium. The main feature of the Water Energy System is that it can be operated for a longer period of time by controlling the reaction of the metal or the metal compound, the company said.

I thought so. Interesting. I wonder how long it runs before "servicing".

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080613/153276/

http://www.huliq.com/62013/genepax-unveils-first-water-car

[davefoc]

well, Techno- they
1. Didn't claim over unity.
2. Didn't claim quantum effects, yet.
3. Have a working model
4. Didn't ask for money

Possibly, they have found something that may work, in our world, not just the land of pixies.
Catalysts being somewhat non-intuitive, it may just be workable.
My personal incredulity, pimple cream catalyzes polyesters.

I had similar thoughts, except that what has been reported so far by the news media just seems like routine energy from water crapola.

The stories are not completely consistent. This is from one of them:
For the future, the company intends to provide 1kw-class generation systems for use in electric vehicles and houses. Instead of driving electric vehicles with this system alone, the company expects to use it as a generator to charge the secondary battery used in electric vehicles.

So now instead of actually powering the car they propose to just replace the alternator with their system? As was mentioned above 300 watts is a fraction of a horsepower and is too small to be of use in standard motor vehicle applications.

Another reason to skeptical here besides the obviously bogus media claims that suggest that water alone could be used as fuel is that if one had developed a unique electrolysis or fuel cell system the first step is to demonstrate a stand alone device and submit that device for independent testing. As soon as somebody skips that step and is wasting their time and energy putting it in an automobile, it is reasonable to be very suspicious, I think.

[casebro]

So how long do you think the worlds aluminum reserves will last, once we start using it for fuel?

I know, I know! it will be 'recharged', using electricity generated by burning oil !

Yup-er, "Car Runs ON Water!!!" yup-er.

[gfunkusarelius]

i won't even pretend to have knowledge on the topic at hand, but as a skeptic, the first huge red flag to me is the fact that this technology release comes through the press rather than peer reviewed literature. have any massive "breakthroughs" that were released via a commercial company through the press actually panned out?

[robinson]

Almost every major breakthrough in technology has panned out. No matter how it is first heard of.

[INRM]

I honestly like this idea of a pneumatic powered car better. Why use water when you can use air? Plus pneumatic power can drive stuff and has been proven to do so. There was this guy who devised this rotary engine that could use pneumatic air or something to propel it.

I think his name was DePietro... Australian guy (lots of Italians in Australia)

INRM

[casebro]

OOO! OOo! OOO! I know, Mister Cotter!

Why don't we use the homeopathic memory of water to power our cars? All those water molecules must have been hot once upon a time...

[TjW]

Almost every major breakthrough in technology has panned out. No matter how it is first heard of.

I suppose that's trivially true, in the sense that if it doesn't pan out, it wasn't really a breakthrough.

Say, whatever happened to Steorn?

[robinson]

Don't know, don't care. The marketplace drives technology. If it works, and it costs less, or even more, if it has the coolness factor, then advances always pan out.

[Prometheus]

I don't care what powers my car; I just want it to fly. When I was a kid they promised me we'd have flying cars by the year 2000. So where are they? I want a flying car--WAAAAAAAAAHHH! :mad:

[TjW]

Don't know, don't care. The marketplace drives technology. If it works, and it costs less, or even more, if it has the coolness factor, then advances always pan out.

No, the science drives the technology. The marketplace drives the acceptance of working technology.

Steorn was simply one example of announced-by-the-manufacturer breakthroughs that didn't pan out.

[ponderingturtle]

I honestly like this idea of a pneumatic powered car better. Why use water when you can use air? Plus pneumatic power can drive stuff and has been proven to do so. There was this guy who devised this rotary engine that could use pneumatic air or something to propel it.

I think his name was DePietro... Australian guy (lots of Italians in Australia)

INRM

See the threads on it. It is inefficient, and does not work well in cold climates.

The motor that seems to be suggested would be at best a way to more effeciently change out batteries reactants.

[robinson]

Jun. 25 - A leading alternative fuels expert throws water on Japanese company claims that it's developed the world's first car powered by just water.

Professor Theodosios Korakianitis at Queen Mary University of London says water by itself would not be enough to get your car going.
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=85239&videoChannel=6

Be sure and check out all the Reuters videos. Cloned cancer dogs, nipple cams, drip less paint, robot scales Grand Canyon, diabetes cured by urine, sniff your facebook friends, etc etc

[robinson]

deleted

[davefoc]

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=85239&videoChannel=6

Be sure and check out all the Reuters videos. Cloned cancer dogs, nipple cams, drip less paint, robot scales Grand Canyon, diabetes cured by urine, sniff your facebook friends, etc etc

They were entertaining. I think my favorite was the robot climbing grand canyon. (caveat: don't want to build this up too much, I was entertained but you may not be)

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=83754&videoChannel=6

[robinson]

I really enjoyed the flying man. I should start a topic about it.

[davefoc]

I really enjoyed the flying man. I should start a topic about it.

I agree that was spectacular. I missed it first time around.
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=82460&videoChannel=1

I thought this one was fun also:
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=84182&videoChannel=4

This was my favorite:
http://uk.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=82703&src=vidAd2

[robinson]

We are off topic at this point. Apologies to the Mods and others.

(Start a topic! Icarus at last!)

I am trying to track down somebody who actually saw the car. I really want to know how they are doing this, and how they can get that much energy out of water.

[Prometheus]

The same way a steam engine gets energy out of water--it doesn't. The water is being used to get the energy out of some other fuel.

[robinson]

Not according to them. They use a catalyst to extract the hydrogen, making it a battery system. (This is easy to do, aluminum will do this).

But somehow they made it so you don't have to add a few pounds of aluminum cans to the car every few days...