Bishop who doesn't believe in god, the church or the bible.

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/13/1065917344295.html



America’s most controversial bishop advocates dumping the Ten Commandments. John Shelby Spong talks to Barney Zwartz.

John Shelby Spong advocates a 21st century Christianity that doesn’t require people to check in their brains at the church door. In practice, what this means is abandoning "outmoded" concepts such as a traditional God, a divine Christ, prayer, and the Ten Commandments as the basis of ethics.

The controversial American bishop acknowledges this means the end of traditional Christianity, but says it is dying anyway, and no modern rational person can accept its tenets. Spong is touring Australia promoting his new book, A New Christianity for a New World, to, he says, packed and appreciative audiences. These may not contain many church-goers, but such people are not the audience the retired Bishop of Newark in New Jersey, is trying to reach.

At 72, he is still criss-crossing the world, bringing his ideas to the "church alumni association".

"I think there are two movements going on in the Christian faith today," Spong says. "One is a retreat into yesterday, into certainty and fundamentalism. It reflects the fact there is a great struggle, and they’re not winning."

More and more people don’t want to be part of that church, he says, and those are the ones he addresses. "I’m not trying to convert conservative church people, but to deal with people that conservative church people have run out of church or bored out of church."

This book is his vision of what the Christian church reformed to be in dialogue with the 21st century will look like.

Fundamentalists, his bete noire, will not recognise it. Fundamentalists were so named in the early 20th century for defending a set of five doctrines they regarded as fundamental: the inspiration of Scripture as the revealed word of God; the virgin birth as guarantee of Christ’s divine nature; salvation through his death; his physical resurrection; and his eventual second coming. To Spong, these are not just naive but eminently rejectable.

He goes further. God is not a being, and does not interact with the world. And with this centre gone, the rest of the traditional Christian tapestry rapidly unravels.



He is not alone. There are many more clerics who seem to have come to view the 'church' as more of a humanistic institution.

[MoeFaux]

It's been suggested that the Pope is an atheist, as well as most succesful world leaders, and many a president. That "faith" is just a tool to control the weak.

[Roadtoad]

If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse?

Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck.

My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.

[MoeFaux]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse?

Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck.

My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.

Yes, if you mean that in the general "got ya" sense and not the way Dan Savage defines it. ;)

[neutrino_cannon]

Of course he likes cash. That aside, it's still a step in the right direction.

Reading "fundies say the darndest things" has shown me that there is, in fact, a fringe of christianity that is very divorced from reality, willingly so, and in light of abortion clinic bombings, as well as what some of them have said, frankly dangerous. Any step away from that particular of faith and it's tenants is a good step in my opinion.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by MoeFaux


Yes, if you mean that in the general "got ya" sense and not the way Dan Savage defines it. ;)

Yup.

Knew there was a reason I liked you, MoeFaux.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse?

Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck.
Well, finally, a guy who has his marbles together (they'll kick him out in no time!).

Recently posted something about Christianity. I mentioned that is completely unnecessary to involved "god" or any of the supernatural part of the bible. Why? Well just look at the definition of Christianity: "A religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ". Love they neighbor, turn the other cheek, be charitable, I see no reason why "god" needs to be involved at all. I think this Bishop has the right idea, he wants to focus on the Moral Teachings of Jesus rather than worshipping God. Of course, this is going to upset a lot of fundamentalists... oh well, nothing you can do about it.

My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.
Obviously :D.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by MoeFaux
It's been suggested that the Pope is an atheist, as well as most succesful world leaders, and many a president. That "faith" is just a tool to control the weak.

The Pope an atheist? That's a laugh. He and is supporters are most definitely believers in god, and not just any god, but the one true god of the catholic faith, which their church alone represents. Any attempts to move the church in the direction that Spong is taking has been firmly rebuffed.

[Prospero]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


The Pope an atheist? That's a laugh. He and is supporters are most definitely believers in god, and not just any god, but the one true god of the catholic faith, which their church alone represents. Any attempts to move the church in the direction that Spong is taking has been firmly rebuffed.

You're implying that maintaining an institution involves having faith in what that institution stands for. Anyone can see that Cardinals and Archbishops have to be incredibly savvy political players in orger to get into their positions. However, like politicians, they use appearances as a tool to achieve whatever goals they have for themselves.

I'm sure you have a fairly strong argument that el papa isn't an atheist, but MoeFaux makes an extremely valid point in the context of Marx's correct identification of religion as the opiate of the masses. Just like the Soviets who outlawed religion to instead employ a national philosophy as their opiate. You obviously didn't see the Soviet officials living in the squalor they were subjecting the Soviet people to. Preaching and practice have no true relationship.

[a_unique_person]

The ability to be a hypocrite has no correlation to ones ability to believe in god.

[Some Friggin Guy]

This entire thread reminds me of an episode of the British TV show Father Ted. I believe the episode is called "Hell" .

During the episode, one of the main characters, Father Dougal, convices a bishop that religion is all srap and the Bishop leave to move in with a hippie commune.

If you haven't ever seen this show, it's great for picking apart Catholicism.


And it's hysterical.

[c4ts]

A man tries to introduce independant thought to Christianity and gets rejected by all the Fundies. I wonder if he didn't see that coming a mile away.

[-=Vagrant=-]

If I remember correctly, Finland has a retired archbishop who is openly "agnostic". I.e. says he believes with doubt. I don't remember that there were any uproars of anger from christians in any news media. That archbishop is still popular due to his soccer hobby. I just don't remember his name.

I'm getting old...

[Jet Grind]

I'm with the many who simply do not understand Spong's agenda. I mean, sure, he's just like the rest of us and seeks to make a living, so the money is good. But what about the religious aspects of what he's doing? Seriously, what's the point of adhering to Christianity if you don't even believe in God, prayer, salvation, etcetera? You could say that the teachings of Christ exemplify upstanding moral character, but in reality, they're not really exclusively his. They are alos the teachings of Buddha in the Dhammapadda, Lao Tzu in the Tao te Ching and a whole slew of others (many of whom predated him by centuries). Should I be a Buddhist if I'm not interested in attaining nirvana, or a Gnostic if I have no intention of attaining gnosis? I really don't get it.

I'll probably buy his book, just because I'm curious.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Well, finally, a guy who has his marbles together (they'll kick him out in no time!).Do a search of the forum for "Spong" and you'll see his name has come up before.

Those critical of Bishop Spong often fail to acknowledge that he makes some valid points. Others have raised the same points before, some publicly and some privately, and many in the various churches have responded by ignoring those points entirely.

Bishop Spong says he wants Christianity to change. What's interesting is that some people who like Spong wonder whether Christianity can survive at all if his views become widely accepted.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Brown
Do a search of the forum for "Spong" and you'll see his name has come up before.

Those critical of Bishop Spong often fail to acknowledge that he makes some valid points. Others have raised the same points before, some publicly and some privately, and many in the various churches have responded by ignoring those points entirely.

Bishop Spong says he wants Christianity to change. What's interesting is that some people who like Spong wonder whether Christianity can survive at all if his views become widely accepted. In some ways, he's to Christianity as Gobechev is to Soviet communism -- an insider who will brings about the downfall. Except that Bishop Spong will not eventually have that effect. Even in his own church (Anglican), the fundementalists and other conservatives are about to effect a scism over an openly gay bishop. They can just lop off the apostate pieces, and continue on their merry way to Christ.

[Finella]

::should be doing research... must... not... post... ::

::agh::

Agreed with Brown here. Spong sees a new form of Christianity, and therefore it's not about abandoning its principles, its about reform. I'm curious, too, about his new book... once I finish this dang degree I'll go and get it.

Besides, the man's retired. The Episcopal Church is not concerned about him at this point, since he does not actively hold a leadership position. And, since the Anglican communion is all about a huge variety of belief systems they're not going to "kick him out" because then they'd have to lose 98% of their communicants (not because they have similar belief systems, but because there really is no orthodoxy in Anglicanism).

And y'all really do need to see Father Ted. Although I wouldn't equate Dougal's de-conversion of the Bishop to Spong and his book. Father Ted rocks. See the episode "Speed 3", too.

---,---'--{@

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Finella
Agreed with Brown here. Spong sees a new form of Christianity, and therefore it's not about abandoning its principles, its about reform. I'm curious, too, about his new book... once I finish this dang degree I'll go and get it.


Makes sense. The Bible charts the course of god from being a tyrant prone to smiting canaanites with hideous cruelties, to one who wants to be a SNAG. His current view would just be a continuation of that historical process.

[Star Of The Sea]

Spong is very similar to Richard Holloway, the former Bishop of Edinburgh here in Scotland. While he was still Bishop, he made more and more pronouncements and writings that could only have been atheist. Finally, he made a TV series called Holloway's Road which basically clinched it. It wasn't long before he had to stand down as Bishop, surprisingly. I highly recommend some of his books such as Godless Morality and Dancing on the Edge.
Non-belief in the clergy has a long history, but only really became a big issue when Bishop John Robinson wrote Honest To God in the sixties.
And many lay people in the churches also ahve this attitude. check out the Sea Of faith network: sea of faith (http://www.sofn.org.uk/)

be well
Luke

[mort]

I've been a fan of Bishop Spong for quite a while. He is by no means a skeptic and uses Freud to support his arguments. However, I generally agree with him in that religion isn't inherently backwards, or bad, it is the idea that religion can't change in order to be compatible with the modern world that is the problem. Thus the beliefs of Bishop Spong are somewhat like those of Unitarians, but with a Christian bent, which in turn gets the fundies p.o.ed.

If you are interested in what he has to say, I probably would not recommend "A New Christianity for a New World" since it contains quite a bit of psychological mumbo jumbo (unless you are into that kind of stuff). Instead you might want to try "Why Christianity Must Change or Die."

[Finella]

I've been a fan of Bishop Spong for quite a while. He is by no means a skeptic and uses Freud to support his arguments. However, I generally agree with him in that religion isn't inherently backwards, or bad, it is the idea that religion can't change in order to be compatible with the modern world that is the problem.

OMG, he uses Freud?!?

:eek:


---,---'--{@