Amway TV ad

[Tex2]

Actually, when you remove the tool profit motive (in other words, lower the tool prices), the tool content is quite good. I'm not saying it's perfect, just very good. At the extreme, if tools were free, what harm would come from promoting the next meeting or CD, etc? In fact, remove the tool profit motive, and the meeting/CD content would probably get even better, because the only way to make the profit would be to train and motivate the IBOs to use and sell the products and sponsor others to do the same.

[NewtonTrino]

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Tex2]

Go ahead and disagree, but you have to say why.

[NewtonTrino]

I already said why. They are basically sermons to the church of Amway. That's not to say that they don't teach some aspects of building the business but primarily they are sermons.

[Tex2]

What do you mean by "sermons", or "church of Amway?" Are you aware that most sales organizations teach using motivational techniques?

[Almo]

What do you mean by "sermons", or "church of Amway?" Are you aware that most sales organizations teach using motivational techniques?

There's a qualitative difference between cult-like indoctrination and normal business motivation.

[NewtonTrino]

There's a qualitative difference between cult-like indoctrination and normal business motivation.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.

[Bob Klase]

There's a qualitative difference between cult-like indoctrination and normal business motivation.


Correct. In the short time I was in Amway (almost 30 years ago) I can't recall any of the tapes/tools giving any real information on running a business or selling products. The were 99% devoted to how great your life would be when you hit the big time, long rambling and detailed dissertations about the day they quit their 'real' job and rubbed all their co-workers noses in the fact that they were "finally free" and what a loser everyone else was for being too stupid to see what a great opportunity they were missing.

The 2 (or 3) weekend 'seminars' I attended were a big factor in waking me up to what I'd got myself into. They were closer to fundamentalist evangelical revival meetings than any business- the only thing missing was faith healings.

Hardly normal business motivation for any non-cult business.

No doubt icerat would blame that on my particular line, or claim that things are different now, but nothing I've seen or heard in the last 30 years gives me any reason to believe that the vast majority of other lines weren't the same or that it's much different now except where the government has stepped in and made them change.

[icerat]

Again let me repeat, we are not claim illegality which is all your linked essay is defending. We are saying that if the money comes from primarily inside the pyramid which when you combine low external retail sales (again PROOF if you dispute this) as well as tools money is the vast majority of money in the pyramid.

This is your circular logic. You're claiming nobody buys the products legitimately (despite all the evidence to the contrary) and proof is that most products are bought by members. Of course, if you liked the products, you'd become a member to get them cheaper .... which just proves, in your world, that nobody legitimately wants the products!

Do you really believe this rubbish your spouting?

Whatever, this is completely pointless! Don't you understand that definitions don't matter and it's simply a question of where the money comes from? Without a very solid retail support base the profits of the upline will come out of the pockets of the downline.

So ... what you're saying is that it's a scam because people who like the products and join or stay IBOs just to get the products cheaper, are being scammed by their upline .... what they should be doing is not be members, and pay 30% more for the products!

Yeah ... that's makes so much sense.

I'll just call Amway and let them know I want to resign, because NewtonTrino says I'm being scammed by paying a lot less for the products than a "real" customer .... :cool:

If you are not retailing, buy from yourself and purchase tools you are sending your upline a nice check every month while you almost guarantee that you and those below you will lose money. You need to retail, and retail needs to be the vast majority of volume to make this not a scam.

I partly agree. The business model works a lot better with customers. That's why I've always had them, and taught others to have them.

Of course, you just ignore all the IBOs with customers and pretend they on't exist.

You also continue to ignore the MAJORITY of IBOs that are just buying products, and buying NO tools, and not even attempting to make money. They're just as legitimate a customer as someone paying full price. Why can't you see that?

Also telling us that your upline encourages retail also doesn't matter (even if they do, which I seriously doubt).

Well of course you do, it wouldn't fit your world view would it?

I could post MP3s and scans of documents etc all talking about customers ... but I know the response to that, because I've had it before ... "Oh yeah, they'll say that in the seminars and on tapes ... but behind close doors they'll tell you to ignore it!"

What amazing brainwashing! Not only can they brainwash you through the tapes, they do it so well they can even get you to ignore what's said on the tapes! :eek:

You seriously need some tinfoil dude.

[icerat]

I tried to end this thread a few posts back, now it's time to do it at least for me.

You believe what you want to believe, you've made it clear that anything that disagrees with your doctrine will simply be dismissed.

You've made it clear that you believe you have "the truth" and that you've had "the one true experience" and that anyone who claims to have experienced anything different is lying.

I get it. A little thing like reality simply isn't going to get in the way of your beliefs. That kind of faith can't be argued against, as is evident enough elsewhere on JREF where religious types talk about how their personal experience is all the proof they need, and things like logic or rational thought can and should be ignored.

For those lurkers who instead care to evaluate evidence and look at the facts, I've provided enough links and data and 3rd party information. They can make their own decisions.

So I'm done in this thread. Have a nice weekend.

[Richard Masters]

What do you mean by "sermons", or "church of Amway?" Are you aware that most sales organizations teach using motivational techniques?

If you are not motivated enough, it's probably because you are selling crap. Motivating someone is not the same as teaching, by the way.

[NewtonTrino]

I tried to end this thread a few posts back, now it's time to do it at least for me.

You believe what you want to believe, you've made it clear that anything that disagrees with your doctrine will simply be dismissed.

You've made it clear that you believe you have "the truth" and that you've had "the one true experience" and that anyone who claims to have experienced anything different is lying.

I get it. A little thing like reality simply isn't going to get in the way of your beliefs. That kind of faith can't be argued against, as is evident enough elsewhere on JREF where religious types talk about how their personal experience is all the proof they need, and things like logic or rational thought can and should be ignored.

For those lurkers who instead care to evaluate evidence and look at the facts, I've provided enough links and data and 3rd party information. They can make their own decisions.

So I'm done in this thread. Have a nice weekend.

Dude, you are the one using the argument of religious believers. If I talk about how the catholic church is a bunch of bunk, superstition, weird rituals and fake miracles I get exactly the same sort of retort back. Anyone can run the Amway math, look at the history, look at the lack of proof of people making money and draw their own conclusions.

I'm still waiting to hear from any actual retail customers. A lot of people read this forum, surely someone regularly buys amway products here?

[Almo]

You believe what you want to believe, you've made it clear that anything that disagrees with your doctrine will simply be dismissed.

You've made it clear that you believe you have "the truth" and that you've had "the one true experience" and that anyone who claims to have experienced anything different is lying.

I get it. A little thing like reality simply isn't going to get in the way of your beliefs. That kind of faith can't be argued against, as is evident enough whereever devout Amway types talk about how their personal experience is all the proof they need, and things like logic or rational thought can and should be ignored.

For those lurkers who instead care to evaluate evidence and look at the facts, we've provided enough links and data and 3rd party information. They can make their own decisions.

[NewtonTrino]

This is your circular logic. You're claiming nobody buys the products legitimately (despite all the evidence to the contrary) and proof is that most products are bought by members. Of course, if you liked the products, you'd become a member to get them cheaper .... which just proves, in your world, that nobody legitimately wants the products!

Do you really believe this rubbish your spouting?


Absolutely I believe it. Your theory is that everyone who buys Amway products and likes them signs up to get better prices. I don't buy this theory as a reason for the low amount of retail sales outside of the IBO's. My explanation of the facts are simply different. I haven't seen any data presented by you that would show your theory of why there is so little external sales. My theory fits the facts nicely. People don't buy the products because they are overpriced crap. People in the pyramid are told to buy the products so the can get rich. BTW I'm not saying that retail customers don't exist. You always seem to want to twist anyone statements into the most extreme form possible. All I'm saying is that most IBO's don't even try to retail because that's not what's really taught. The available numbers bear out my theory, not yours.

Either way you've already unwittingly admitted that I'm right and now you are just arguing about why. This is similar to your useless argument about whether or not it's ILLEGAL vs. whether or not it's a waste of time.

Scam, be wary people!

[Tex2]

None of you has explained why the tool content is so bad. What is so bad about stories of success? Now, I realize all of these stories are based on the tool scam, but a similar amount of money can be made legitimately via Amway with one or two higher pins than what the speakers have.

[Tex2]

None of you has taken the request to discuss this on a conference call, either. Are you all chicken?

[Skeptic]

It's noteworthy that they only places where Amway offers products which are "competitive" with other vendors -- and only rarely in that case, too -- is in scam-filled, overpriced fields of cosmetics and "health products".

When it comes to anything else it offers, such as cutlery, we see the $300 six-knife set, $160 frying pans, etc. easily mean nobody except for the brainwashed ambots buy them because their upline says so.

[Richard Masters]

None of you has explained why the tool content is so bad. What is so bad about stories of success? Now, I realize all of these stories are based on the tool scam, but a similar amount of money can be made legitimately via Amway with one or two higher pins than what the speakers have.

And you haven't responded to any of my posts... which address some of your questions.

What is so bad about stories of success?

By themselves, nothing. What's wrong is the assumption that listening to stories of success will make you successful; or that these tapes are a better use of your time and money than say, watching the latest blockbuster at the local movie theater.

[NewtonTrino]

If they were just plain stories of success they wouldn't be as bad. They try to instill a particular attitude in the listener similar to what a sermon does.

[Tex2]

We can go round and round on these topics in a written format. I say again: None of you has taken the request to discuss this on a conference call, either. Are you all chicken?

[NewtonTrino]

Why would I call a conference call for a discussion on a message board?

What would the point of it be? This is just some random discussion on a random web site here.

[Almo]

We can go round and round on these topics in a written format. I say again: None of you has taken the request to discuss this on a conference call, either. Are you all chicken?

The only advantage a conference call has over writing is that bullying debate tactics work better when done vocally.

Here, everything everyone says is public record, and can be consulted. An example is my posting of the link to where Icerat got the price differential on Costco vitamins vs Amway vitamins wrong.

This is a far better way to discuss things than a conference call. So no, we're not chicken.

[NewtonTrino]

I see asking someone to call you on the phone in a forum discussion like this as kind of an unwanted escalation of a cyberspace meeting into a meatspace meeting.

[Tex2]

Okay, you both are chicken. It's okay. I'm not into bullying, whether giving or receiving. You think this is some random discussion, but it isn't. It's a decades long, multimillion IBO, multibillion dollar scam. It's not an escalation either, it's a common sense way to stop going around in circles and do something to shut down the tool scam. If you mean escalation to shut down the tool scam, you're right. If you think I'm going to bully you or be bullied by you, you're WRONG. I understand you would rather write back and forth ad nauseam with icerat/ibofb, and you know what? He enjoys it, too. I prefer to fix what's broke, not talk about it forever. Later.

[NewtonTrino]

I'm not sure it's fixable. I'm also a believer in liberty so I'm not sure I would try to shut it down either. I just want people to make sure they have enough information to decide for themselves whether or not they should get involved. I don't see how a conference call helps that.

[tomwaits]

Okay, you both are chicken.

We might be interested in a conference call if you gave a rational explanation as to why that would be preferable to a message board.

[Richard Masters]

Okay, you both are chicken. It's okay. I'm not into bullying, whether giving or receiving. You think this is some random discussion, but it isn't. It's a decades long, multimillion IBO, multibillion dollar scam. It's not an escalation either, it's a common sense way to stop going around in circles and do something to shut down the tool scam. If you mean escalation to shut down the tool scam, you're right. If you think I'm going to bully you or be bullied by you, you're WRONG. I understand you would rather write back and forth ad nauseam with icerat/ibofb, and you know what? He enjoys it, too. I prefer to fix what's broke, not talk about it forever. Later.

You make money deceiving people into wasting theirs. I don't think you are interested in fixing what's "broke".

EDIT: the reason people don't want to conference call you, is because they are certain you intend to make a high-pressure sales pitch. They know you are going to change the topic from "Amway salespeople are morally corrupt" to "Let me tell you about this opportunity...".

[NewtonTrino]

I wasn't assuming he was going to pitch on us Amway. I just think it's a waste of time. I can be on the laptop here doing other things at the same time as responding to this stuff. This is playtime stuff, right?

[Richard Masters]

I wasn't assuming he was going to pitch on us Amway. I just think it's a waste of time. I can be on the laptop here doing other things at the same time as responding to this stuff. This is playtime stuff, right?

That's true. He/She can give us the whole speech in a long-winded post, without hijacking our attention needlessly.

[NewtonTrino]

I just realized something. Drugs are expensive because they are a black market item. Due to the nature of this the supply chain tends to be long with a lot of middlemen to pay. Isn't this pretty much the same reason Amway products are so expensive? lol.

[Richard Masters]

I just realized something. Drugs are expensive because they are a black market item. Due to the nature of this the supply chain tends to be long with a lot of middlemen to pay. Isn't this pretty much the same reason Amway products are so expensive? lol.

:D Good catch... in fact, Amway was successfully charged with price-fixing. Another parallel, is that the middle-men always want someone else to do the dirty work. Of course, the product in MLMs is more likely to be the right to inclusion in the MLM, rather than any product that is desirable for its unbundled value.

[Skeptic]

Why would I call a conference call for a discussion on a message board?

Amway still lives in the stone-age, technologically -- dealing with conference calls, tapes, and CDs / DVDs instead of the internet, which is a much more efficient way to spread information.

Apart from the bullying tactics angle, which is of course the case, two more reasons are:

1). The "tools" scam would collapse if people could just get the tapes' and books' information for free on the internet, and

2). Amway, like scientology and other cults, hates the internet because everybody can easily educated themselves about the digusting side of the "business", and find out the embarrasing facts about the infinitesimal rate of success and the pyramid structure of the whole scheme -- facts pre-internet Amway did a lot to try and keep hidden.

[Almo]

Okay, you both are chicken.

Whatever.

It's okay. I'm not into bullying, whether giving or receiving.

I would say that calling us "chicken" is bullying. You've discredited yourself within two sentences.

[Tex2]

Have it your way, but you are all dead WRONG. If you're looking for an excuse, any excuse will work. How about this one: A number is missing on my telephone.

[Tex2]

Calling someone "chicken" is bullying? I guess you have a skin thinner than a chicken!

[NewtonTrino]

What are you talking about? Can you completely explain your chain of logic to us? Writing on message board -->-- ?????? -->--- we are chickens for not calling you on the phone? Where's the beef?

[Tex2]

Later.

[firecoins]

I'm still waiting to hear from any actual retail customers. A lot of people read this forum, surely someone regularly buys amway products here?
I drink the energy drink. I enjoy it. what would you like to know about it?

My 2 brothers are "distributors". 1 is platnium in the the "business" and the other is near that.

[NewtonTrino]

Excellent, thanks for the info. Any idea if they are profitable?

Anyone else that isn't family with a distributor want to chime in?

[Skeptic]

I drink the energy drink. I enjoy it. what would you like to know about it?

My 2 brothers are "distributors"....

Yet more proof that (practically) the only people who buy Amway's stuff are the distributors and their long-suffering families.

[Almo]

Calling someone "chicken" is bullying? I guess you have a skin thinner than a chicken!

You are attempting to goad us into getting on the phone with you. That is bullying.

[Ferguson]

None of you has taken the request to discuss this on a conference call, either. Are you all chicken?

Later.

"Shut up NERDS! I'm taking my ball and going home!"

Funny that they are the chickens while you're running away from the discussion like a - pardon the phrase - chicken.


When the vast majority of Amway sales are to IBOs, it's pretty obvious the process goes:
Step 1: Join Amway to get rich.
Step 2: Buy some products to sell, improve your numbers, out of loyalty, etc.
Step 3: Products don't sell, use them yourself.
Step 4: Go to Step 2.

Amway sells you on the idea of owning your own business. If you own your own store, of course you'll only buy from yourself, even if the prices are higher, to support your business. Now Amway has you hooked, locked in to buying only their overpriced fund-raiser-fare. If you listen to propoganda/tools you'll really be hooked. If you get lucky and hook enough others you might even end up making money, works for Amway.

I guess in that way it's similar to drug dealing. To make money you have to stop using and start hooking others :D

[Furcifer]

I'm not sure it's fixable. I'm also a believer in liberty so I'm not sure I would try to shut it down either. I just want people to make sure they have enough information to decide for themselves whether or not they should get involved. I don't see how a conference call helps that.

I haven't read the forum for a bit, but I agree with what you are saying IR, it's just that you haven't really proven that Amway products are actually worth dealing with the scams and gimmicks. There may be several reputable IBO's out there, but the majority aren't. Given the length of time the business has operated in this nature it suggests they have no intention of making all the IBO's reputable. It seems rather obvious that if Amway and the parent company had any intention of removing the refarious nature of the business they would take control of the tools scam and start a smack down on the known offenders. Just a thought.

[NewtonTrino]

I haven't read the forum for a bit, but I agree with what you are saying IR, it's just that you haven't really proven that Amway products are actually worth dealing with the scams and gimmicks. There may be several reputable IBO's out there, but the majority aren't. Given the length of time the business has operated in this nature it suggests they have no intention of making all the IBO's reputable. It seems rather obvious that if Amway and the parent company had any intention of removing the refarious nature of the business they would take control of the tools scam and start a smack down on the known offenders. Just a thought.

I think you're misreading me. I'm saying that they are a bunch of scammers and nobody should get involved. I was just clarifying that because I lean libertarian that I'm not sure the government should make them illegal per se.

[Furcifer]

I think you're misreading me. I'm saying that they are a bunch of scammers and nobody should get involved. I was just clarifying that because I lean libertarian that I'm not sure the government should make them illegal per se.

Doh, wrong quote. Sorry NT. Meant to quote IR, not you.

I'm rusty :D

[tomwaits]

Have it your way, but you are all dead WRONG. If you're looking for an excuse, any excuse will work. How about this one: A number is missing on my telephone.


Why won't you give a reason for having a conference call? What's the point?

[NewtonTrino]

I'm astounded at the lack of responses for people using Amway products.

[corplinx]

When I got bored in computer science and switched to business at a good school, I learned about marketing, finance, management, accounting, and other topics. However, I never had "tools" training. I should call that place up and tell them my degree was a scam.

[NewtonTrino]

That would slide right in the with the anti-education bias in Amway anyway.

[Tex2]

Blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

[NewtonTrino]

Ah, yes! That makes complete sense.

[Tex2]

As much as the preceeding 20 pages! Round and round we go, where the typing stops, nobody knows....

[Skeptic]

When I got bored in computer science and switched to business at a good school, I learned about marketing, finance, management, accounting, and other topics. However, I never had "tools" training. I should call that place up and tell them my degree was a scam.

Yes, indeed. I see you noticed how NOBODY except those in the Amway cult EVER uses these "success" and "business building" "tools". If they're such great business training material, why not? Surely their lessons are applicable to other businesses except Amway?

Oh wait, they aren't. All the "tools" do is tell you to keep buying Amway stuff, to keep attending their conferences and functions, to "flush" friends who criticize Amway, etc.

A typical scam.

[Tex2]

Yes, nobody else uses audiobooks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiobook It's "only" a $2 billion/year business!

Let's not forget books like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" were best sellers and written well before Amway started.

I don't know if you guys realize it or not, but you're talking pure BS.

How can you expect to shut down the tool scam when you can't get basic facts right?

Oh yeah, I forgot. This forum is just entertainment for you, you don't give a rip about millions of people getting tool scammed for several decades for 10's of billions of dollars. It's too much fun joking around while others get ripped off, isn't it?

[Cavemonster]

Yes, nobody else uses audiobooks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiobook It's "only" a $2 billion/year business!

Let's not forget books like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" were best sellers and written well before Amway started.

I don't know if you guys realize it or not, but you're talking pure BS.

How can you expect to shut down the tool scam when you can't get basic facts right?

Oh yeah, I forgot. This forum is just entertainment for you, you don't give a rip about millions of people getting tool scammed for several decades for 10's of billions of dollars. It's too much fun joking around while others get ripped off, isn't it?

Well, you're ranting at strangers over the internet, which doesn't really help anyone either. At this moment millions are dying from disease, and war and genocide all over the world. there's always something more important anyone can be doing with their time.

[Tex2]

I wasn't ranting, I was showing how "Skeptic" was ranting by getting his facts wrong. Nice try at misdirecting the conversation into another topic, though. Let's ignore the tool scam, because someone else is dying of disease/war, etc., as they have been dying for centuries. I know, let's not enforce ANY laws or unethical behavior. Let's free Bernie Madoff from jail! Let's free all criminals! Long live the tool scam!

[corplinx]

Yes, nobody else uses audiobooks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiobook It's "only" a $2 billion/year business!

Let's not forget books like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" were best sellers and written well before Amway started.

I don't know if you guys realize it or not, but you're talking pure BS.

How can you expect to shut down the tool scam when you can't get basic facts right?

Oh yeah, I forgot. This forum is just entertainment for you, you don't give a rip about millions of people getting tool scammed for several decades for 10's of billions of dollars. It's too much fun joking around while others get ripped off, isn't it?

"How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a tool? I can buy it at any local book store. You might find it on any corporate bookshelf along with a copy of "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" and "Who Moved My Cheese?". All bought from a local bookstore.

They however are not normally part of a business education at a major university.

Are these commonplace books Amway tools? How much does Amway charge for them versus a Barnes and Noble?

[Cavemonster]

Rant
transitive verb : to utter in a bombastic declamatory fashion

[NewtonTrino]

Tex, seriously we aren't here to shut anyone down. This is a skeptical internet message board. This clearly falls under business scams that people should be skeptical about hence the discussion here. Nobody here is trying to start a movement to shut anything down other than you. Internet message board != Anti-Amway activists of earth, get it?

[Tex2]

Goodbye. Enjoy your small band of posters, bitching back and forth.

[Cavemonster]

Goodbye. Enjoy your small band of posters, bitching back and forth.

Members: 21,158

bye!

[Skeptic]

The "self-help" and "business success" books are, for a good reason, not used in usual university business education. Unlike actual business education -- textbooks and other academic works dealing with things like money flow, marketing, supply and demand, etc. -- these "success" books give you no actual knowledge in economics or business.

Instead, they give you all kinds of psychological gimmicks: "think positive!" "Show interest in the other person!" (long enough to get him to trust you enough so you can make money from him, that is); "this is the first day of the rest of your life!" "Just DO it!", etc.

These are books for losers, for mice who would be supermen, for those who think there is a quick and easy gimmick that will allows success and riches to be achieved by those who don't have the knowledge, industry, capital, or ability to gain success and riches.

Of the rather pathetic crop that is the "business success", Amway's books and tapes are surely some of the worst. They don't even bother, all that much, with the usual "think positive!" meaningless nostrums the other "success" books give you. In effect their advice is to keep buying Amway no matter what.

Even people hooked on "self-help" and "success" books who aren't in Amway don't use Amway's "tools". Now what does THAT tell you about their worth?

[Bob Klase]

Goodbye. Enjoy your small band of posters, bitching back and forth.

Bye. I wish I could say you'd be missed.

[Tex2]

21,000 members? How many of them are still here reading? Posting? On this thread? Less than 10? Probably.

Who do you think was buying "How to Win Friends and Influence People" before Amway was started? Answer: business people. I never claimed you didn't have to keep an eye on business related issues, but you ALSO need people/relationship skills for the Amway business. To deny this is idiotic.

[NewtonTrino]

You need people and relationship skills in any business. Apparently in Amway it's the only thing you need...

[Cavemonster]

21,000 members? How many of them are still here reading? Posting? On this thread? Less than 10? Probably.

Who do you think was buying "How to Win Friends and Influence People" before Amway was started? Answer: business people. I never claimed you didn't have to keep an eye on business related issues, but you ALSO need people/relationship skills for the Amway business. To deny this is idiotic.

I'm sorry, I thought you left?

[NobbyNobbs]

These are books for losers, for mice who would be supermen, for those who think there is a quick and easy gimmick that will allows success and riches to be achieved by those who don't have the knowledge, industry, capital, or ability to gain success and riches.


I have to respectfully disagree. The most successful CEOs got to where they are not only with a knowledge of business, marketing, and economics, but also with the ability to a)deal with people, and b)keep themselves motivated.

There are different ways to learn how to do both of these. For some, rock-climbing, sailing, or meditation might work. For others, books like "How To Win Friends" or "7 Habits" do the trick. In fact, I'd be surprised to find a head of a major company who doesn't have Dale Carnegie on his bookshelf.

Of course business acumen is needed. Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Almo]

Goodbye. Enjoy your small band of posters, bitching back and forth.

I guess he figured out he won't be getting any downlines to build his business from here.

[Skeptic]

I have to respectfully disagree. The most successful CEOs got to where they are not only with a knowledge of business, marketing, and economics, but also with the ability to a)deal with people, and b)keep themselves motivated.

Indeed so. But those people did not get their ability to deal with and motivate people from reading "how to succeed" books which sell you a bunch of pychological gimmick about how to do "act like winner" or the equivalent. Charisma and leadership aren't things you pick up for $4.95 at your local used book shop.

Alexander the Great was succesful due to his charisma as well as his military knowledge, but how silly would it be if people joined the military en masse thinking they can all make general by reading "How to think Like Alexander" paperbacks! And yet the odd little world of "success"-books motivated enterpreneurs (which I am NOT saying is the same, at all, as ALL motivated enterprenuers) is not much different.

In any case, we can agree to disagree on "Self-help" books in general -- I don't want to derail the thread. The point is, Amway's "tools" are total excrement even by the "self-help" world's notoriously undemanding standards: they don't even sell you psychological gimmicks for success, they just tell you to keep doing Amway.

No wonder nobody except Ambots use them.

[Almo]

21,000 members? How many of them are still here reading? Posting? On this thread? Less than 10? Probably.

No idea how many are reading the thread, but here are the people on the forum right now:

Almo, Patsy, Bruce Voigt, DavidS, bokonon, madurobob, supercorgi, Consternatio, Alferd_Packer, L. Ron Hoover, Christian Klippel, Startz, wardenclyffe, jonronson, Rrose Selavy, AkuManiMani, BillC, Ambrosia, mrbaracuda, hcmom, triforcharity, Mr.D, RecoveringYuppy, H3LL, Anti-sophist, Evolved Wookie, Myron Proudfoot, Swagomatic, RandFan, MacM, Mark A. Siefert, Alt+F4, Ivor the Engineer, tripi, progressquest, Agatha, Aitch, bickerer, lapman, grmcdorman, Lensman, RoboTimbo, leftysergeant, ARubberChickenWithAPulley, In My Spare Time, Seymour Butz, NYCEMT86, The Central Scrutinizer, UncaYimmy, BTMO, YoPopa, HeyLeroy, Charles Livingston, drapier, ravdin, jon, calebprime, NobbyNobbs, MattusMaximus, ArmillarySphere, geni, Upchurch, BenBurch, The_Animus, bill smith, I Ratant, rbryner, Bob Klase, NWO Sentryman, Newtons Bit, thrombus29, wuschel, Fredrik, Meadmaker, Gilmar, Retrograde, shawmutt, thaiboxerken, 9/11-investigator, rocketdodger, fsol, Fitter, Uzzy, Smooth Operator, drkitten, Tim Thompson, alexi_drago, boooeee, marksman, scissorhands, 16.5, RussDill, big-E, ejk, fetchbeer, A Christian Sceptic, Kariboo, plumjam, catsmate1, Tanstaafl, ElMondoHummus, Stankeye, Jeff Corey, Lord Muck oGentry, Michael Mozina, nemo, BillyJoe, Grizzly Bear, CaptainHair, The Nimble Pianist, Rolfe, dlorde, dahduh, Brainster, wendyinthewind, oggiesnr, D'rok, Bardy, johnny karate, Mojo, Z, six7s, Mancman, Ethnikos, rwguinn, HyJinX, Flashman, CORed, Kesha, Cavemonster, kookbreaker, Viper Daimao, Bobbotov, mortimer, hayenmill, Denver, Architect, Leviath, Metullus, joobz, tuc0, hurdygurdy, westprog, Gord_in_Toronto, dudalb, TruthersLie, Bionic Hips, Christopher7, Nogbad, Sabrina, 666, JohnG, NotJesus, korenyx

[Tex2]

Thanks, you made my point. How many active threads are there? How many of the above names have posted on this thread? QED.

You guys are so caught up in being anti-Amway you can't tell the difference between what was mentioned above, the baby and the bathwater. LOL

[NewtonTrino]

That's pretty rich coming from someone helicoptering into this thread almost 20 pages in.

In my opinion we aren't getting much commentary because most people on this forum aren't involved with nor want to be involved with Amway and simply have nothing to say about it.

[Tex2]

I've been "helicoptering" on Amway related blogs for 4 YEARS, I know what I'm talking about without reading 20+ pages of your dribble.

In my informed opinion, based on facts, most people don't have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to Amway, and none of them on this forum are willing to get educated, on the phone or online....LOL

[Tex2]

So why did you think you would get much feedback from Amway customers?

[tomwaits]

You guys are so caught up in being anti-Amway

I've been "helicoptering" on Amway related blogs for 4 YEARS,

(bolding mine)


hm...

[NewtonTrino]

So why did you think you would get much feedback from Amway customers?

I don't. I don't think there are many customers who aren't either trying to make a buck in the business or a close friend or relative guilted into "helping" by buying products.

[Bob Klase]

Thanks, you made my point. How many active threads are there? How many of the above names have posted on this thread?


Makes no difference how many names post to a thread. How many have read it is what counts.

[Tex2]

If there aren't many people posting on the thread, you have a very small chance of having someone posting they are a customer. LOL

I suspect there are a lot of readers, but they are more like pansies you guys are, who won't make a simple phone call and think you can be bullied on the phone, when we know all you have to do is hang up. LOL

[Almo]

Goodbye. Enjoy your small band of posters, bitching back and forth.

So... why are you still here?

I suspect there are a lot of readers, but they are more like pansies you guys are...

(bold mine)

More bullying. I really don't understand what this guy is trying to accomplish.

These Amway people really, really get desperate.

[Bob Klase]

If there aren't many people posting on the thread, you have a very small chance of having someone posting they are a customer. LOL


If there aren't very many customers then you have an even smaller chance of someone posting that they're a customer.

I suspect there are a lot of readers, but they are more like pansies you guys are


You must think everyone here is at the same grade level as you. Why not try to double dare us, I'm sure that works with your friends.

Anyway, I rather be a pansy than a dorky-weenie like you.

[NewtonTrino]

Please don't bring out the double dog dare!!!

[Tex2]

Almo, I'm here for the same reason you are....entertainment! LOL

Except I enjoy knowing the facts, while YOU are all clueless! LOL

[corplinx]

Almo, I'm here for the same reason you are....entertainment! LOL

Except I enjoy knowing the facts, while YOU are all clueless! LOL

Can you reveal the facts or do we have to buy them on a series of exciting audio tapes?

[Tex2]

The facts are already posted on my blog for free, but if you want, you can pay me to access it. LOL

Or, you can call a conference call number to learn more for free (except long distance charges, if any), or you can pay me to talk with me. LOL

[Skeptic]

Or, better yet, you can look at Amway's own numbers and see what a total crap "business" it is. One can make better money flipping burgers. Amway hates the internet since it is now hard to hide the embarrasing truth about the pathetic, indeed nonexistent, income 99% of Amway reps make.

[Bob Klase]

or you can pay me to talk with me. LOL

That fits right in with Amway- paying you to talk to yourself.

[Almo]

Please don't bring out the double dog dare!!!

He might dispense with protocol and go straight to the TRIPLE DOG DARE!! (movie reference anyone?!?)

Right, so some on-topic content, lest the mods jump in an kick us around a bit.

Tex, your tactic is really not working. LOLing your head around doesn't help get you any credibility. Throwing insults at us won't help, either.

Amway's own numbers are (from the ad cited in the OP) that they helped 3 million business owners earn $6 billion. Doing the math, that's $2000 apiece. That's terrible! This is using their own numbers from an ad! These are numbers they appear to be proud of!

As some of us have direct experience with some of these "business owners," we know that they are their own customers, just feeding their uplines by purchasing overpriced merchandise. Many people make negative money, while their allotments of $2000 go upline.

Amway can put those numbers in the ad, because anyone who figures out what they mean would never join after seeing how the business works.

[Tex2]

Skeptic, you wouldn't know what a number was if it smacked you upside the head. LOL

Bob, clueless as usual. At least you're consistent. LOL

Almo, my "tactic" is working perfectly. You have the same "talent" as Skeptic does with numbers....NONE! LOL

[Skeptic]

Skeptic, you wouldn't know what a number was if it smacked you upside the head. LOL

(Big grin)

As it happens, I have a Bachelor's degree in mathematics.

Care to tell me what the closed lined integral of miromorphic function, over a path in the complex plain, is always equal to?

Hint: this question is closely related to Amway. Answer it, and you'll have the value of an Amway "business" is worth in the real world, in US dollars.

And they say higher math isn't practical.

[Bob Klase]

English grammar rules change so fast it's getting hard to keep up. When was the period replaced
with ". LOL"?

[Tex2]

Skeptic, did you mean complex "plane?" LOL

I don't know the answer, but assume the number you are looking for is zero, which would make you incredibly WRONG, as the Amway profits have produced at least 2 billionaires (Rich and Jay) and hundreds of millionaires (Diamonds and above). LOL

Bob, there have been no punctuation rule changes, I just enjoy laughing at fools. LOL LOL LOL

[Almo]

I don't know the answer, but assume the number you are looking for is zero, which would make you incredibly WRONG, as the Amway profits have produced at least 2 billionaires (Rich and Jay) and hundreds of millionaires (Diamonds and above).

Madoff. Ponzi. Amway. The only difference is Amway has found a way to make it legal. It's still a pyramid scheme, and a few do get rich. Most get taken for a ride (that they have to pay for).

[Bob Klase]

Bob, there have been no punctuation rule changes, I just enjoy laughing at fools. LOL LOL LOL


I tend to like people who can laugh at themselves.

[NewtonTrino]

(Big grin)

As it happens, I have a Bachelor's degree in mathematics.

Care to tell me what the closed lined integral of miromorphic function, over a path in the complex plain, is always equal to?

Hint: this question is closely related to Amway. Answer it, and you'll have the value of an Amway "business" is worth in the real world, in US dollars.

And they say higher math isn't practical.

Too easy to google the answer of that one.

[BenBurch]

Tex,

The late Dale Carnegie was not counseling people to buy goods from a MLM, or to "flush" friends. And his advice was generally entirely sound.

-Ben

[Skeptic]

I don't know the answer, but assume the number you are looking for is zero, which would make you incredibly WRONG, as the Amway profits have produced at least 2 billionaires (Rich and Jay) and hundreds of millionaires (Diamonds and above).

Let's see.

Number of Amway millionaires: "hundreds". Let's be generous and say the answer is 1000.

Number of Amway distributors: a few millions over the years, at least. Let's assume it's, say, 2,000,000.

Chance of becoming millionaire in Amway: about 1/2000.

But, according to (for example) The Millionaire Next Door and other sources, at least 1% -- closer to 2-3% -- of Americans are millionaires (net worth about $1,000,000).

Chances of becoming millionaire in Amway: AT MOST 1/20th of that of becoming a millionaire doing something else.

That's the most generous interpretation. The real chance of becoming a millionaire in Amway, if the number of distributors is larger, number of Amway millionaires smaller, and percentage of American millionaires higher than 1% -- all very likely assumptions -- is probably closer to 1/100, or less, of becoming a millionaire elsewhere.

[Skeptic]

I think I'll gamble everything I've got in the casino. Hey, the casino made AT LEAST a few billionaires -- those who own the casinos -- so it must be a good investment!

[NewtonTrino]

Ya but the rules don't apply to Amway. If you keep buying books and cd's you will eventually get rich! Trust me, I don't make money until you do!!

[ysabella]

In case it helps, I've actually heard of Artistry. But that's only because someone tried to recruit me into setting up an online storefront thing which is connected to Amway, and I looked at their storefront and figured out it was Amway-related.

When I want high-end makeup, I buy Stila (http://www.stilacosmetics.com/).

<---------- <<wearing Stila lip gloss in my avatar photo>>

[NewtonTrino]

So you've heard of it but haven't seen the product in person? Just curious because I think feedback on quality level would be interesting.

Does anyone know where I can get transcriptions of any of the motivational materials? I would love to trawl through some of it and pull out some choice quotes so we can all have a laugh.

[corplinx]

I figured if these tools videos were so good, that I should be able to find many of them given away free on youtube by the amway pros who don't need the tools money.

I am having trouble finding them. Could someone link me some to watch?

[Tex2]

Almo, Amway is legal. The LCK tool scam, on the other hand, is unethical, immoral, and probably illegal.

Ben, if it weren't for the tool scam, Dale's book would be put to good use with the Amway business.

Skeptic, thousands would probably be more accurate. Also, you are obviously not very good at math, as you don't realize there is a difference between a snapshot and the longer term change/growth of an IBO's business. Tell me this: If there is a group of IBOs, let's say the arrangement is 6-4-2, and the one who sponsored the 6 is a Platinum (assuming 100 PV per IBO), what are the "chances" one of the "2's" can become a Platinum in the future?

ysabella, I would be happy to provide access to Artistry at IBO cost, so you could make a comparison and report to this forum. Are you interested?

corplinx, I've purchased several thousand tapes/CDs and hundreds of books for pennies on the dollar, which is very close to free.

[corplinx]

Skeptic, thousands would probably be more accurate. Also, you are obviously not very good at math, as you don't realize there is a difference between a snapshot and the longer term change/growth of an IBO's business. Tell me this: If there is a group of IBOs, let's say the arrangement is 6-4-2, and the one who sponsored the 6 is a Platinum (assuming 100 PV per IBO), what are the "chances" one of the "2's" can become a Platinum in the future?

I'm sure none of that matters since the average Amway member moves so much product that they dont need a rank or recruits to make a living.

[BenBurch]

I'm sure none of that matters since the average Amway member moves so much product that they dont need a rank or recruits to make a living.

That's funny.

You know if this stuff actually sold and was a good value, you would find it in stores. Amway would make MUCH more money that way than in having a zillion middlemen each taking a cut along the way. A Corporation always acts to maximize its profits, and in fact, that is their sole responsibility to their shareholders.

In my experience with Amway products, where they are not actually inferior to products you can buy in the open market, they were only comparable, and at a higher price.

One MLM that does at least give decent value and good products is Mary Kay, and I wager you will find MANY more people in that one that are making their nut just selling product than you find in Amway.

[Almo]

Almo, Amway is legal. The LCK tool scam, on the other hand, is unethical, immoral, and probably illegal.

Pyramid schemes don't have to be illegal to be stupid. We've said that before in this thread. The mere legality of the Amway pyramid is does not prevent it from being a poor business model on average.

[Tex2]

You guys are more clueless than I imagined. LOL

[ysabella]

So you've heard of it but haven't seen the product in person? Just curious because I think feedback on quality level would be interesting.
Correct. One of my friends, when I mentioned the recruiting incident, said she'd seen a magazine ad for Artistry. So they advertise in some regular magazines, apparently.


ysabella, I would be happy to provide access to Artistry at IBO cost, so you could make a comparison and report to this forum. Are you interested?
Tex2, thank you, I'm willing although I don't know how meaningful it would be. I have to keep it under $20 though. I'm unemployed at the moment and have to control my spending. How much is mascara?

[Skeptic]

Tell me this: If there is a group of IBOs, let's say the arrangement is 6-4-2, and the one who sponsored the 6 is a Platinum (assuming 100 PV per IBO), what are the "chances" one of the "2's" can become a Platinum in the future?

Virtually nil.

The reason should be obvious: expodential growth. Under the BEST conditions, one in 6x4x2 = 48 distributors is a Platinum. But for the "2"s to become Platinums, too, Amway's business has to grow 48-fold. This might be reasonable if the pyramid were just starting out, but Amway had long ago reached a stage where such a growth is utterly impossible.

Their chance is not 1 in 48, because that implies some sort of transfer of power -- that all EXISTING platinums give up and quit, leaving the field free for new people to take their place. Not going to happen.

Amway is a pyramid. All the income, or nearly all, is already "locked in" for those at the top. Those at the bottom can only make money by fighting to take over the existing business from established "pins", or by recruiting more "downline". But since the saturation point had long ago been reached, their actual chances of recruiting that number of people is very low.

What is their REAL chance of making platinum? Let us look at Amway's own numbers (I am using Britt's numbers from the 1990s, but I doubt the percentages changed much). Only about 1 in 700 or so of Amway distributors ever makes "Platinum", which mean an income of ca. $60,000 a year. The expected utility of a 1-in-700 chance of making $60,000 a year is worth about $800 a year.

Some "opportunity".

corplinx, I've purchased several thousand tapes/CDs and hundreds of books for pennies on the dollar, which is very close to free.

You "forgot" to ad that you purchased them "for pennies on the dollar" from those who quit Amway in disgust, finding themselves with a basement full of used "success" tapes nobody except for other Ambots would buy. It is either selling them for pennies on the dollar or throwing them into the trash.

You certainly didn't buy them at "pennies on the dollar" from the big pins who made them and sold them at full price to the suckers who get stuck with a basement's full of them.

[Skeptic]

I'm unemployed at the moment and have to control my spending.

Join Amway! Then, you are NOT unemployed, you're an ENTERPRENEUR and a businesswoman who is going to be RICH any day now! It's your only chance to not end up a broke loser for the rest of your life! Just ask the guys at the top of the Amway pyramid, they'll tell you that!

Of course you'll have to start buying all those tapes, going to all those conferences, and spending all your time recruiting -- leaving you with far less money and time (which you could have used to look for a job) than before -- but who cares? Jobs ("Just Over Broke") are for losers anyway. REAL winners do amway instead. Why, they earn a whopping $80 (or so) a month, on average, so we're talking serious tycoons here.

Remember: you're not losing money, you're INVESTING in your business! It's NOT a brainwashing session for the Amway cult members, it's a BUSINESS SEMINAR! And you're NOT wasting your time doing nothing but speaking to people about Amway, making people run away in the opposite direction as you approach, you're MARKETING!

So there! Just give things a nice name and they change reality.

[Richard Masters]

Tex, allow me to summarize your position: people can make a killing (6 figure profits) selling Amway products if they work hard, just like they could if they instead sold coupons, ketchup packets, or cans of uncompressed air. The problem is the tool business.

[NewtonTrino]

Tex2, thank you, I'm willing although I don't know how meaningful it would be. I have to keep it under $20 though. I'm unemployed at the moment and have to control my spending. How much is mascara?

Having you pay for this is ridiculous. Tex is the one wanting to sell the product so I think he should donate one for testing.

[ysabella]

Join Amway! Then, you are NOT unemployed, you're an ENTERPRENEUR and a businesswoman who is going to be RICH any day now! It's your only chance to not end up a broke loser for the rest of your life! Just ask the guys at the top of the Amway pyramid, they'll tell you that!
(...)
So there! Just give things a nice name and they change reality.
You're not quite using the right techniques. I actually took mental notes when someone was trying to recruit me. I figured I might describe this in this thread since it's pretty recent and it's not exactly soap-selling.

See, one day not so long ago we were at the park watching our son play, and a woman watching her kids play came up to ask my husband where he's from (due to his accent). This turned into a friendly social discussion with the woman and her husband, and we swapped email addresses.
Via email, the woman and I set up a day and time to meet for coffee. I suggested a small local coffee place, but she countered with Starbucks at the mall. Uh, okay. She emailed again and asked whether my husband was coming to coffee, too. Ruh? Weird question. My spidey-sense was shading from yellow alert to orange alert.
I had some misgivings stirring, but we went. We sat down and I saw the husband palm a folder - red alert now. He started unrolling a big spiel about the internet as a big mall, and having a "door" to the mall as a way to work from home, make big money yet have time with your kids, etc.

Being a big fan of Gavin de Becker, I sat there counting the techniques he mentioned in his book The Gift of Fear. They are explained as ways that people try to pressure you into something, and I have found the list to be very valuable. Here are my notes on what they said/did to pressure us (from a post I wrote in another forum at the time):


loan sharking - the husband insisted on buying the round of lattes, so we would feel obligated to listen to his whole spiel.
charm/flattery - "My wife likes you and we know you're good people, so we're giving you this great opportunity." From talking to us at the park for 10 minutes, you know we're good people?
forced teaming - trying to create an "us" where there is no "us." They were pretending they wanted to be our friends.
typecasting - "You're dynamic people - you're actors - so you'd be really good at this." Huh? How is dynamic acting needed for an internet storefront? Also, when I said I couldn't have side businesses or second jobs if they violate my employers non-disclosure/non-compete agreements, and the husband scorned that big time. "Oh, well, your company is trying to tell you what to do on your own time?" Clearly, I'm supposed to prove I'm "dynamic" and "independent" by buying into this thing, otherwise I will disappoint this guy's dream of who I truly am, oh dear.
discounting "no" - they tried to head off the "no" answers by saying "It's fine that you're skeptical! Ho ho, we were so skeptical about this! You've never seen two people more skeptical." To which I thought, "Oh, you have NO IDEA how wrong you are about that."


The husband insisted that they would in no way benefit from us taking this great opportunity, and reiterated what a great favor they were doing by telling us about it. He gave me a pamphlet and a CD.
Back home, I remembered - there was a signature line on the emails from the wife, with some cheesy online store link in it (buycrapfromme.biz, that sort of thing) so I went back and clicked on it. A quick Google search or two and I saw that it was Alticor, and that Alticor was Amway. The storefront
I put up a filter to block any future emails from them, because I didn't want to see them. And that was that.

[ysabella]

Having you pay for this is ridiculous. Tex is the one wanting to sell the product so I think he should donate one for testing.
Well, Tex2, what about mini-sized samples? Do they have any kind of trial thingies like that?

[Tex2]

ysabella, mascara is $9.10 (7 grams) and $10 (10 ml), depending on the type, at IBO cost. Plus taxes and shipping. Shipping for $75 or more is free. How much is your favorite brand, how big is the container, and are you still buying it, now that you're unemployed? There are some skin care/cosmetics that have samples, but mascara is not one of them.

Your contact with Amway was probably from inexperienced IBOs. They were practicing on you. They may get better, they may quit. It's how it works. Would you have preferred they insulted you and your husband rather than complimented you?

Skeptic, you may want to ensure the University that gave you your diploma isn't reading this forum, they may want it back. Not only do you not know how to spell a math "plane", but you got your 6-4-2 numbers wrong. Amway is nowhere near saturated, but the tool scam is quickly becoming saturated. Other than that, your "analysis" sucks in several other ways. Also, I know who I bought the tools from, and I was apparently willing to pay more than their upline was willing to pay. I didn't "forget" to mention this, it's all on my blog, and I'm not going to repeat every fact and nuance every time I post.

Richard, not even close.

Newton, I never said I wanted to sell the product to anyone in particular, you said the product quality is poor. I don't give away product. Others may, I don't. Also, given the small market this forum represents (it took about a week for the first person to admit they have heard of Artistry), and ysabella's leaning towards being biased against Amway, this isn't exactly a "warm" market to give away products. LOL

[NewtonTrino]

It takes money to make money right? How do you expect to get customers if you are willing to give out some samples? We spend many thousands of dollars per year on business development at my company...

[Bob Klase]

You certainly didn't buy them at "pennies on the dollar" from the big pins who made them and sold them at full price to the suckers who get stuck with a basement's full of them.

Also, I know who I bought the tools from, and I was apparently willing to pay more than their upline was willing to pay.

So Skeptic was exactly right. You didn't buy them at "pennies on the dollar" from the big pins who made them and sold them at full price to the suckers who get stuck with a basement's full of them.

You bought them from the suckers who got stuck with a basement full of them.

[corplinx]

Your contact with Amway was probably from inexperienced IBOs.

Yeah. They forgot to try to sell them vitamins or lipsticks.

[VespaGuy]

You're not quite using the right techniques. I actually took mental notes when someone was trying to recruit me. I figured I might describe this in this thread since it's pretty recent and it's not exactly soap-selling.

<snip>



I've had several Amway run-ins as well. In addition to the techniques you mentioned, I also encountered this one: They ask you to spend money you that don't have yet. One of my encounters began with the question, "what would you do with and extra $200 each week?" They encourage you to verbally fantasize about this extra money and before you know it you've mentally paid off all of your debt, bought a new car, and taken a vacation.

[Skeptic]

ysabella, mascara is $9.10 (7 grams) and $10 (10 ml), depending on the type, at IBO cost.

Translation: if you're nuts enough to buy from this guy, you're going to get bombarded with offers to join up as an IBO. First it would be for the "great deals" (HAHA!) of buying Amway's stuff at "IBO cost" (which means, in practice, only 50% to 500% above comparable products you can get in any store), and soon it would be for the "great opportunity".

There are no real customers for Amway since everybody who is even remotely interested in buying a pack of gum (or the equivalent) is going to be badgered, annoyed, and cajoled into joining the "great opportunity" until they're sick of it.

Plus taxes and shipping.

Oh yeah, of course, I forgot that in order to get a phial (stick? vial?) of lipstick from these guys, you also have to wait for delivery, and pay shipping. So much more convenient than just buying the damn thing in the corner store...

To sum up, buying from Amway: you buy, wait for the damn thing to ship God-knows-when, and get a big bull's eye on your back saying "potential downline! GET 'IM!". As opposed to buying in the corner store, where you get the lipstick (or whatever) immediatelly and nobody hounds you to join a "great opportunity" of selling lipstick to other people.

Your contact with Amway was probably from inexperienced IBOs.

Funny how they make up 99%+ of the IBOs. It's a shame, really, how a few rotten apples ruin it for the 0.023% of Amway reps which are honest.

Oh, but waaaaaaaaait a minute. What do you mean "practicing"? Oh yeah, their "try and guilt them into joining" love-bombing is PRECISELY what all those IBOs learn in all those "marketing seminars", don't they? They were practicing what their uplines told them.

First Amway teaches their IBOs to behave like pushy little cult-recruiting droids, then they complain that people think Amway reps are pushy little cult-recruiting droids. Gee, I can't imagine why...
"

Skeptic, you may want to ensure the University that gave you your diploma isn't reading this forum, they may want it back. Not only do you not know how to spell a math "plane", but you got your 6-4-2 numbers wrong. Amway is nowhere near saturated,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I'm sure it's going to grow to 50 its present size. Any day now.

Other than that, your "analysis" sucks in several other ways.

The main one being that it tells the embarrasing truth.

Also, I know who I bought the tools from, and I was apparently willing to pay more than their upline was willing to pay.

In other words, their upline "big pin" dumped it on them with the usual "if you're SERIOUS about Amway, you'll buy these tools!" guilt-trip selling, and when they woke up and quite, the "money back guarantee" turned out to be useless, as usual, didn't it?

I didn't "forget" to mention this, it's all on my blog, and I'm not going to repeat every fact and nuance every time I post.

Especially, by a curious coincidence, not those "facts and nuances" that make Amway look bad. Since that means 99% of the facts about Amway, you're reduce to "LOL" and personal insults.

[Richard Masters]

I've got some ketchup packets and straws that might interest you, Tex. Why don't you get on a conference call, so I can tell you all about the business plan? Are you chicken?

[BenBurch]

On Amazon, Ecco Bella Brown Mascara, 22 gm, $14.95

22/7 = pi ;)

3.14 * $9.10 = 28.67

Which makes this stuff AT YOUR COST 50% overpriced.

What do you charge a Mark customer?

[Bob Klase]

On Amazon, Ecco Bella Brown Mascara, 22 gm, $14.95

22/7 = pi ;)

3.14 * $9.10 = 28.67

Which makes this stuff AT YOUR COST 50% overpriced.

More like 90% over priced. $22.45 would be a 50% increase / overprice.

But remember, the quality must be better because it's Amway. (ETA: LOL)

[Skeptic]

To sum up:

Amway's lipstick:

1). Costs twice as much (almost).
2). You have to wait for it to be delivered, instead of getting it from the store the minute you want it.
3). You will be badgered by the IBO to "join the great opportunity" for the rest of your life, or until he declares you a "broke loser who doesn't get it".

No wonder Amway has no retail customers. Who, except for brainwashed IBOs, will pay extra just to get hassled?

[corplinx]

Amway makeup has to be great. Sandra Bullock is their model. With all of the lucrative movie offers she gets these days, there is no way she would take their money if she didn't believe in the product.

[ysabella]

ysabella, mascara is $9.10 (7 grams) and $10 (10 ml), depending on the type, at IBO cost. Plus taxes and shipping. Shipping for $75 or more is free. How much is your favorite brand, how big is the container, and are you still buying it, now that you're unemployed? There are some skin care/cosmetics that have samples, but mascara is not one of them.
No favorite at the moment. Currently, I have L'Oreal HIP Volumizing Mascara (http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=180440&catid=98577&cmbProdBrandFilter=53220), which retails at $10 for .25 oz/7.4ml. I bought it at Target. It doesn't bother my eyes (a problem I have with some mascaras) but it does flake (bits fall off, leaving black dust under my eyes), so I wasn't going to buy it again. I was going to replace it soon, yes. I don't wear it that often but you have to replace eye makeup a few months after you introduce it to your eyeball area (and therefore your eyeball area germs to the packaging/product).
Well, perhaps we should discuss something that is sample-able. Little lipstick samples are the most fun. I like tinted moisturizers with SPF.

Your contact with Amway was probably from inexperienced IBOs. They were practicing on you. They may get better, they may quit. It's how it works.
Perhaps you're right.

Would you have preferred they insulted you and your husband rather than complimented you?
That is not the only other choice there is.

Newton, I never said I wanted to sell the product to anyone in particular, you said the product quality is poor. I don't give away product. Others may, I don't. Also, given the small market this forum represents (it took about a week for the first person to admit they have heard of Artistry), and ysabella's leaning towards being biased against Amway, this isn't exactly a "warm" market to give away products. LOL
I looked a little for product reviews, and found that Paula Begouin wrote up a few (http://www.cosmeticscop.com/brand_review.aspx?tid=158&brand=Artistry+by+Amway). She has made a career out of being a cosmetics & beauty products watchdog. She appeared on Penn&Teller:BS! in an episode about 'The Fountain of Youth,' in a segment concerning overpriced face creams and the claims made about them, so some of you might have seen that.
Her summary of the Artistry product line is as follows:

"Strengths: One of the few cosmetic companies that offers complete ingredient lists on their Web site; features some excellent moisturizers, serums, and sunscreens; several foundations without sunscreen; good concealer, powder, lipstick, and eyeshadow options; excellent liquid eyeliner.

Weaknesses: Expensive for what you get (especially the Time Defiance products); lacks an effective disinfectant for blemishes; no viable skin-lightening options; some problematic toners and masks; foundations and lipstick with either low SPF ratings or a lack of sufficient UVA protection; OK makeup brushes; difficult online shopping platform."

She reviews a few individual products on that page. I'm sure there is more in-depth info on her paid site.
A complete list of ingredients is indeed something Artistry should be commended for. That's useful for people with allergies and so on. Also it shows some confidence in quality.
If it's a little expensive, that isn't a huge sin, or a unique one. Loads of makeup and beauty products are overpriced, to be sure.
(I suppose it's a little confusing that she puts 'several foundations without sunscreen' as a Strength and then products with 'low SPF ratings or lack of sufficient UVA protection' as a Weakness. I think what she's looking at is the breadth of the whole line - there should be some sunscreen-free products, and there should be some solidly protective options, is what she's saying there.)
It sounds like an acceptable product line, you guys. If it was really crap she would have said so.
And it's true, a product would have to overcome my dislike of the selling scheme that I experienced, so I'm not a likely repeat customer.

[ysabella]

So Skeptic was exactly right. You didn't buy them at "pennies on the dollar" from the big pins who made them and sold them at full price to the suckers who get stuck with a basement's full of them.

You bought them from the suckers who got stuck with a basement full of them.
Hmmm, check out this Craigslist listing (http://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/for/1206307009.html). I'm sure that will evaporate, so I'll paste it in:

Amway World Wide Dreambuilders CD, Tapes, Videos and Shelving - $220
Date: 2009-06-04, 11:40PM HST

Have for sale 200 curent NEW Amway World Wide Dreambuilders Cd, 50 Videos and 400+ tapes All for $250.
Paid over $4000.00

$4000! :jaw-dropp

[ysabella]

Translation: if you're nuts enough to buy from this guy, you're going to get bombarded with offers to join up as an IBO. First it would be for the "great deals" (HAHA!) of buying Amway's stuff at "IBO cost" (which means, in practice, only 50% to 500% above comparable products you can get in any store), and soon it would be for the "great opportunity".
I took Tex2's offer to mean he would sell me a product at his cost, plus shipping (since I'm not going to spend $75). Perhaps I was mistaken. I'm certainly not willing to sign up for anything, I hope that is clear.

[corplinx]

200 curent NEW Amway World Wide Dreambuilders Cd, 50 Videos and 400+ tapes

Wow..... I wonder how many hours of material that is? Its definitely more that the number of lecture hours you would get in the classes required for a business major.

I make a lot of wisecracks in this thread. But honestly this kind of thing sickens me. My wife has a brain injury that left her more gullible than the average bear. Before she met me she fell victim to all sorts of these pay-to-play "opportunities". Once we got married, she still entertained them because she wanted to work as well and they often prey on people through job classifieds.

I finally got her to understand "real jobs pay for you training, you don't start out paying them to train you (generally)".

I always figured that Amway was a fairly harmless MLM but after reading the thread and seeing what is going on with the "tools" trade, its just shameless and blatantly a ripoff.

[NewtonTrino]

I always figured that Amway was a fairly harmless MLM but after reading the thread and seeing what is going on with the "tools" trade, its just shameless and blatantly a ripoff.


Now I know how the Mormons feel when they get a conversion ;)

[corplinx]

Now I know how the Mormons feel when they get a conversion ;)

Ultimately, it matters not if I think it is a ripoff since I would never do an MLM anyway. Every MLM I've ever seen was either a ripoff or a hobby for bored housewives from the 1950s.

Convincing me that Amway isn't based on moving product isn't a big victory. I never had assumed that it was a legit business. I figured it was just fluff. I had no idea how... malicious it was.

200 videos, tons of CDs, tons of audio tapes, 1 ripped off sucker. It sound like a familiar con.

I had a friend once who used to run a legal con. He would advertise a money making system in the local paper. People who responded would get info, pay for more. The next info would lead to more info, pay for more. The final info was the reveal. He basically showed he had duped them (in diplomatic entrepreneur laced language of course), and that was his money making system he was selling.

It seems that Amway "sellers" use this same sort of scam on the marks. Tools, tools, tools, and my guess is the end tools tell you to supplement your "product sales (laff)" by selling tools.

[ysabella]

I make a lot of wisecracks in this thread. But honestly this kind of thing sickens me. My wife has a brain injury that left her more gullible than the average bear. Before she met me she fell victim to all sorts of these pay-to-play "opportunities". Once we got married, she still entertained them because she wanted to work as well and they often prey on people through job classifieds.
I would highly recommend that book I mentioned, The Gift of Fear (http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440508835/), if you think she might read it. It's kind of an old book, and cheap at used bookstores. It's really about stalkers and stuff like that, but so useful. The concepts I use the most from it are the explanations of techniques that I mentioned, and de Becker's explanation of what "intuition" really is. He thinks it is observation and rapid synthesis/analysis. Like, you get home and you "feel" something is wrong - you can't pinpoint it. Possibly the light is on and you left it off, the curtains are closed when they were a little bit open, or you hear the tink tink tink of an unfamiliar car engine cooling. He thinks women are willing to trust themselves a little more than men, due to the cultural concept of "feminine intuition."
In fact, I've told a couple of very sincere "psychics" that probably they are just keen observers, and when they "feel" something they are really making an extremely fast and intelligent analysis on a series of observations. Weirdly, they don't see it as a compliment, although it genuinely is.

I finally got her to understand "real jobs pay for you training, you don't start out paying them to train you (generally)".
I have a brother who is really interested in self-defense (he's the one who gave me the above book) and when he and his wife watch movies or TV, sometimes they play a game of "How Could This Situation Have Been Avoided?" Sometimes it's fun to discuss.

I always figured that Amway was a fairly harmless MLM but after reading the thread and seeing what is going on with the "tools" trade, its just shameless and blatantly a ripoff.
I've been reading that more people are trying these MLMs in the current recession. And that makes me sad. This is a time when people can least afford to sink a bunch of costs for a very slim chance of return.

[Tex2]

ysabella, you seem to be the only reasonable person on this thread. You can become a customer, at no cost, by going to quixtar.com, signing up as a customer using my IBO number of 1313251, the key is "joh", then give me time to change the retail pricing to IBO pricing, which has to be done manually. I have other long term customers that I do not attempt to turn into IBOs, despite the BS you have read on this thread. You can respond here if you sign up, and I'll also check the quixtar site for your information that you've signed up. There have been 2 rounds of significant price reductions this year, with more to come.

[Richard Masters]

I've got some ketchup packets and straws that might interest you, Tex. Why don't you get on a conference call, so I can tell you all about the business plan? Are you chicken?

Oh, and Tex, this ketchup is high-quality and 100% natural.

Did you know ketchup is a vegetable? Did you know ketchup alone is a 50 billion dollar industry (http://www.krazyketchup.org/blog.php)? That translates to over 10 times more than what you are earning with your boring 24-hour Amway job. And the best part is by following my business plan, you can help others be successful with their own ketchup business. I only pray to God they are as fortunate as you are to talk to someone successful like me.

You should know, too, that I have some tapes I made were I discuss some of my secrets for success, including, but not limited to why your wife is holding you back from success by not being submissive in the bedroom, why God hates negroes and you should stay away from them in your professional life (bad synergy), but more importantly how associating with them could make you an abomination in the eyes of God, just like those gays.

Of course: I'm successful, so the tapes obviously work. They are difficult to follow, but that's why they are so valuable, see these are sophisticated methods that are difficult to master. If a gave you a condensed version, instead of my 52 tape set, it would only serve to confuse you. That's why its important to listen to every tape once, even twice a day, and present the business plan to everyone you know.

You are not obligated to buy the tapes, but really, I can't understand why somebody who REALLY wants to succeed would decline. Imagine being a painter who chooses not to purchase paint! You would hardly call him a serious painter, correct? The thing is, though, I'm only interested in working with people want to succeed. If you are not serious about making a fortune, then let's be honest, why should I take my valuable time and offer it to you, when there are others who would be willing to kill in exchange for this opportunity? You would be wasting my time and I would be wasting yours. Yes, the tapes are essential, and I would expect anyone I sponsor to take this seriously.

Oh, one more thing: A lot of people will try to dissuade you. God knows they tried to dissuade me. But where are they now? still working the same job, or recently unemployed, I'll bet; while you see me here driving a BMW. Those people are toxic, they just don't know all the facts, and they will try to pull you down out of jealousy and ignorance; You would do well to stay away from these people.

God Bless you, Tex.

[Tex2]

Richard, you're as clueless as ever, but at least you're consistent. LOL

[Tex2]

ysabella, you should also be aware signing up as a customer is free, there is no requirement to buy anything, and the products can be returned to Amway if you don't like them for any reason, and Amway covers not only the product cost, but also both directions in shipping. These factors diminish the need to use samples, especially with those not local to me.

[NewtonTrino]

Oh, one more thing: A lot of people will try to dissuade you. God knows they tried to dissuade me. But where are they now? still working the same job, or recently unemployed, I'll bet; while you see me here driving a BMW. Those people are toxic, they just don't know all the facts, and they will try to pull you down out of jealousy and ignorance; You would do well to stay away from these people.


The best thing is that you don't have to sign up to try and make money. I eat a LOT of ketchup and now I get it at wholesale prices! Of course it's not Heinz the ketchup that I actually like, but you need to buy from yourself!!! Once I find some others to also buy ketchup from themselves and get them listening to the tapes I'm sure I'll be driving a BMW too! Except I hate BMW's and would rather stick with my corvette. But whatever, Richard says on the tapes that BMW's are the best, so they must be! See?

[BenBurch]

Amway makeup has to be great. Sandra Bullock is their model. With all of the lucrative movie offers she gets these days, there is no way she would take their money if she didn't believe in the product.

Hey!

There was a time I would have banged her like a screen door.

;)

[BenBurch]

I took Tex2's offer to mean he would sell me a product at his cost, plus shipping (since I'm not going to spend $75). Perhaps I was mistaken. I'm certainly not willing to sign up for anything, I hope that is clear.

To get Clear costs a LOT more than that.

[Tex2]

Don't get too worked up. You wouldn't have been given the time of day by Sandra in the past, and wouldn't now, either. LOL

[NewtonTrino]

Tex, please go away and peddle your scam elsewhere. You are just as brainwashed as all of the other "business owners".

[NobbyNobbs]

ysabella, you seem to be the only reasonable person on this thread. You can become a customer, at no cost, by going to quixtar.com, signing up as a customer using my IBO number of 1313251, the key is "joh", then give me time to change the retail pricing to IBO pricing, which has to be done manually. I have other long term customers that I do not attempt to turn into IBOs, despite the BS you have read on this thread. You can respond here if you sign up, and I'll also check the quixtar site for your information that you've signed up. There have been 2 rounds of significant price reductions this year, with more to come.

Rule 3: (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744) You will not post any commercial advertisements.

[winnietheblue]

What do you all think of Tupperware?

I want Tupperware. I was thinking about becoming a consultant so I could get the 25% discount. With the amount of Tupperware I want to buy, I should come out slightly ahead after purchasing the start-up kit. I don't intend to sell Tupperware.

I know Tupperware is a MLM, and I know they are set unrealistic expectations of success for their consultants. I can't find evidence of any other unethical behavior on the part of Tupperware, however.

Ethics question:Would I be contributing to the perpetuation of MLM by becoming a consultant, or would I just be getting the best deal possible from the current system? Would I be contributing less if I didn't become a consultant and instead bought directly from the website?

[corplinx]

What do you all think of Tupperware?

I want Tupperware. I was thinking about becoming a consultant so I could get the 25% discount. With the amount of Tupperware I want to buy, I should come out slightly ahead after purchasing the start-up kit. I don't intend to sell Tupperware.

I know Tupperware is a MLM, and I know they are set unrealistic expectations of success for their consultants. I can't find evidence of any other unethical behavior on the part of Tupperware, however.

Ethics question:Would I be contributing to the perpetuation of MLM by becoming a consultant, or would I just be getting the best deal possible from the current system? Would I be contributing less if I didn't become a consultant and instead bought directly from the website?

Go to costco and buy a set of Ziploc containers that are better and less expensive. Costco is a better membership than MLM for saving you money.

[winnietheblue]

I have containers I bought at Costco right now. And rubbermaid containers I bought at Target. Click 'n' Clack containers I bought at a local gourmet cooking store. Glass containers I bought at Wal-Mart. None of them work for me.

I have RA. The containers I'm able to grip to take off the shelf, I can't open. The ones I can open, I can't get out of the cabinet on my own. I'm still able to open my mom's old tupperware, though, and some of the modular mates products should be thin enough for me to grip.

[Tex2]

Newton, I'm not "peddling" my business. YOU guys are the ones who said there aren't any customers and the products are of low quality. You don't want to be proven wrong, do you? LOL

[NewtonTrino]

Newton, I'm not "peddling" my business. YOU guys are the ones who said there aren't any customers and the products are of low quality. You don't want to be proven wrong, do you? LOL

Proven wrong about what? I have yet to pin anyone down on a claim of there actually being customers outside the network. What percentage of products actually go to real customers?

And what you are doing to me is clearly recruiting and peddling. Conference calls? Come on.

[Vermonter]

Of course. He comes in, feigns arguement with Icerat (maybe they're the same person, one propping up the others' sockpuppet) and then invites you to a conference call for "the real Amway business" and invites any new person to join his business.

[corplinx]

I have containers I bought at Costco right now. And rubbermaid containers I bought at Target. Click 'n' Clack containers I bought at a local gourmet cooking store. Glass containers I bought at Wal-Mart. None of them work for me.

I have RA. The containers I'm able to grip to take off the shelf, I can't open. The ones I can open, I can't get out of the cabinet on my own. I'm still able to open my mom's old tupperware, though, and some of the modular mates products should be thin enough for me to grip.

Here at a local mall, a tupperware person actually has a kiosk and moves product there.

It appears you can just go to order.tupperware.com without having to become a salesperson.

[Almo]

Of course. He comes in, feigns arguement with Icerat (maybe they're the same person, one propping up the others' sockpuppet) and then invites you to a conference call for "the real Amway business" and invites any new person to join his business.

Though Icerat is now posting in other places on the forum. He's pretty devious if that's that case. Even so, we can't discuss that as it could be "accusation of sockpuppetry" which isn't allowed in threads.

...

I could be a mod!

[winnietheblue]

Here at a local mall, a tupperware person actually has a kiosk and moves product there.

It appears you can just go to order.tupperware.com without having to become a salesperson.

I know that. But I've run the numbers, and I would save money by becoming a consultant. So to rephrase my question: With their website, Tupperware seems to be moving away from MLM...but slowly. If people (like me) became consultants just to save money and do not sell or recruit new consultants, would that a)slow Tupperware's move away from MLM, b)have no impact, or c)(least likely)speed it up once Tupperware figured out what was going on?

[corplinx]

I know that. But I've run the numbers, and I would save money by becoming a consultant. So to rephrase my question: With their website, Tupperware seems to be moving away from MLM...but slowly. If people (like me) became consultants just to save money and do not sell or recruit new consultants, would that a)slow Tupperware's move away from MLM, b)have no impact, or c)(least likely)speed it up once Tupperware figured out what was going on?

How much is worth to you to not be on their mailing lists forever by becoming a consultant? How much is the privacy given up by filling out the consultant forms worth to you?

It might be cheaper in value to just buy the stuff if you consider the value of not attaching strings between the company and yourself.

Just me 2 cents. Probably not worth a penny.

[BenBurch]

Go to costco and buy a set of Ziploc containers that are better and less expensive. Costco is a better membership than MLM for saving you money.

AMEN.

And a HUGE Success of ethical capitalism there.

They treat their employees like they would want to be treated themselves, and as a result have the best employees you can get.

I just wish one were closer. 23 miles is a bit of a haul except a few times a year.

[BenBurch]

If you actually DO save money becoming a Tupperware consultant, well, that is another issue. Most MLMs do not work that way. Tupperware has an actual real product that works as advertised and moves, so they do not need to abuse their downlines.

[NobbyNobbs]

Newton, I'm not "peddling" my business.

Oh,really?

ysabella, you seem to be the only reasonable person on this thread. You can become a customer, at no cost, by going to quixtar.com, signing up as a customer using my IBO number of 1313251, the key is "joh", then give me time to change the retail pricing to IBO pricing, which has to be done manually. I have other long term customers that I do not attempt to turn into IBOs, despite the BS you have read on this thread. You can respond here if you sign up, and I'll also check the quixtar site for your information that you've signed up. There have been 2 rounds of significant price reductions this year, with more to come.

[winnietheblue]

How much is worth to you to not be on their mailing lists forever by becoming a consultant? How much is the privacy given up by filling out the consultant forms worth to you?

It might be cheaper in value to just buy the stuff if you consider the value of not attaching strings between the company and yourself.

Just me 2 cents. Probably not worth a penny.

That is not something I had thought of. :\ I may just purchase though the website.

If you actually DO save money becoming a Tupperware consultant, well, that is another issue. Most MLMs do not work that way. Tupperware has an actual real product that works as advertised and moves, so they do not need to abuse their downlines.

The start-up kit is $80, and looks like it includes items worth about $100 that I would purchase anyway, so if they don't change the contents too much (which they reserve the right to do), I would break even right away, or at least come close. Consultants then get 25% off.

I could see it becoming something of a money hole if I intended to try to make money. The start-up kit does include items I would use frequently, but they wouldn't be the best items to demo at a Tupperware party; purchasing items specifically for parties would add to the cost. Catalogs change seasonally and would need to be replaced even if all of the old catalogs hadn't been used. I haven't seen any evidence that Tupperware encourages consultants to keep stock on hand, though, and that seems to be where most MLMs scam their consultants.

[Jeff Corey]

Tex,

The late Dale Carnegie was not counseling people to buy goods from a MLM, or to "flush" friends. And his advice was generally entirely sound.

-Ben

Except for his "most people only use ten percent of their brain" in "How to win friends and influence people".

[Tex2]

Newton, I'm not the one saying the products are all overpriced and/or of poor quality. I KNOW some of them are overpriced, some are competitively priced, and others priced under the competition. I also know the quality of most are very good to excellent. First, you want me to "prove" there are external customers, then you find someone that has only heard of the brand, then you want me to give away products. Amazing, simply amazing. By the way, I'm not ibofb/icerat, I met him in Prague last year. If you want to know more, check out my blog or schedule a conference call. Idiot.

[corplinx]

If you want to know more, check out my blog or schedule a conference call. Idiot.

You must have skimmed through the "How to win Friends" book.......

[Tex2]

I read it carefully. I don't want you idiots as my friends, and certainly you can't be influenced by facts. LOL

You try to use books designed to be used in a fair-play environment, not a bunch of nutcases who can't think straight. Like when you say the conference call is to "recruit" anyone. All you have to do is HANG UP! LOL

[Skeptic]

ysabella, you should also be aware signing up as a customer is free, there is no requirement to buy anything,

No REQUIREMENT -- true. You'll be PRESSURED to buy, buy, buy, and better yet, sign up a distributor for this "great opportunity" that will make you a millionaire any day now -- also true.

Buying a product from Amway "without any requirement to buy anything" is a bad idea for the same reason going to that off-the-wall missionary church "just to hear the sermon once" because someone you met asked you is a bad idea.

Cults, like Amway, can SAY how they're just friendly institutions, but in reality they do their best to rope in those who show the least interest. Tex is friendly at the moment because he has to -- all cult recruiters are.

Once you actually DO buy anything, however, the psychological pressume to join as an IBO (first to get the "discounted" IBO prices and then to become a "success in a great opportunity") will be ratcheted up. And once you do THAT, oh boy, are you in for it.

My advice? Not worth it, if they had the best makeup in the world for free. Certainly not, when -- like all MLMs -- they are offering so-so products at high prices.

By the way: did you ever wonder why the ONLY products where Amway is sort-kinda competitive in its pricing -- only 50%-100% over competing brands -- is the fields of makeup and health suppliment, where more or less ALL products are overpriced and hyped?

Shows you how much the Amway markup really is. When you look at their other products -- $160 frying pans! -- you see it. Got to pay that upline...

[Skeptic]

ysabella --

Intuition, as you say, most definitely exists. We might not know how we use it, but then again, we don't know how we recognize faces, either. Intuition, like face recognition, is something that developed in us during evolution to allow us to make snap, important decisions base on barely-perceptable (and consciously unrecognized) enviornental clues.

The problem, although this is going off-topic a bit, is that these very real faculties are, again for obvious evolutionary reasons, far TOO sensitive as far as getting to the truth is concerned. If you intuitively feel "there is a tiger nearby" ten times and are wrong nine times out of ten, then the nine false alarms are worth the one time you are not eaten. Similarly, when we intuitively feel "something is not right about this guy" or "something is wrong with the house", we might well be wrong nine times out of ten, but it is still worth it for the tenth time where the man REALLY IS a rapist or there REALLY IS a burglar in the house. Only remember that you are still 90% wrong -- even if you're right in the very crucial 10%.

Our intuitions, like our face recognition, were not developed to get us to the truth. They were developed to protect us when it's important, even if the price is to make us believe a lot of nonsense -- like seeing the devil's face in the smoke from the twin towers, or thinking a house is haunted based on our "intuition".

USE your intuition, by all means -- it is better to be safe than sorry. Just don't trust it to be telling the truth.

[Skeptic]

You must have skimmed through the "How to win Friends" book.......

That's the problem with those books -- they're based on psychological gimmicks (like remembering the tie someone likes to wear and complimenting him on it the next time one sees it) that makes one seem to be friendly and interested in the other person, but are fake. You only PRETEND to be friendly and interested in order to get the other person to trust you, so that it would be easier to close a business deal (or get to bed, or whatever) with them. The moment the other person's usefulness to oneself is over, so is the "friendship". Why bother pretend to be a "friend" when there's nothing in it for YOU?

Look at Tex in this forum. He is all sweet, understanding, and considerate towards those -- ysabella in particular -- whom he thinks he can get something out of, that is, to those he sees as potential clients. The moment someone disagrees with him, however, his rudeness, self-importance, and haughtiness towards those "inferiors" who "don't understand" the GREAT DEAL which is Amway shines through. That is the real Tex. The former, sweet, undestanding Tex is the fake Tex -- it's just Tex using the gimmicks from "How to Win Friends and Influence People"-type books, from his upline's "tools", in order to get something out of the new-found "friend" (an Amway sale, his one goal in life, it seems.)

If everybody behaved the way these books recommend, society could not exist, because everybody would alway know that everybody else is up to something. There would be no genuine friendship or trust or love in the world (but there would be tons of Amway and other MLM products -- surely a fitting compensation.) People who follow the advice in such books only succeed because the rest of us usually act in a friendly way out of genuine concern, not because we only think "what's in it for us?". This is a fancy way of saying that there can be no parasites (Amway people) without a host (most of us).

[NobbyNobbs]

ysabella --

Intuition, as you say, most definitely exists. We might not know how we use it, but then again, we don't know how we recognize faces, either. Intuition, like face recognition, is something that developed in us during evolution to allow us to make snap, important decisions base on barely-perceptable (and consciously unrecognized) enviornental clues.

The problem, although this is going off-topic a bit, is that these very real faculties are, again for obvious evolutionary reasons, far TOO sensitive as far as getting to the truth is concerned. If you intuitively feel "there is a tiger nearby" ten times and are wrong nine times out of ten, then the nine false alarms are worth the one time you are not eaten. Similarly, when we intuitively feel "something is not right about this guy" or "something is wrong with the house", we might well be wrong nine times out of ten, but it is still worth it for the tenth time where the man REALLY IS a rapist or there REALLY IS a burglar in the house. Only remember that you are still 90% wrong -- even if you're right in the very crucial 10%.

Our intuitions, like our face recognition, were not developed to get us to the truth. They were developed to protect us when it's important, even if the price is to make us believe a lot of nonsense -- like seeing the devil's face in the smoke from the twin towers, or thinking a house is haunted based on our "intuition".

USE your intuition, by all means -- it is better to be safe than sorry. Just don't trust it to be telling the truth.


Skeptic--

In general, I find you come on a little too strong for my personal tastes. I must say, though, that I very much enjoyed this post.

Nominated.

[BenBurch]

Except for his "most people only use ten percent of their brain" in "How to win friends and influence people".

Many people thought that then...

[BenBurch]

You must have skimmed through the "How to win Friends" book.......

Hell, I doubt he even reach chapter one.

And for the rest of you; Read it. You likely know most of it already, but he is really good at explaining it. I read it when I was an awkward twelve year old and it really helped me relate to people.

[Skeptic]

I should also add that we should not confuse intuition with prejudice. By "intuition", I do not mean the "he's black, so he's probably a rapist" sort of feeling. I'm talking about the "there is something wrong with this guy, I can't put my finder on it" feeling.

I am well aware we often confuse the two, and that it is sometimes hard to tell the difference. Probably, also, prejudice creeps into what we call "our intuition" even without us knowing this, and is one of the reasons intuition has a high "miss" rate.

But these problems with intuition acknoweldged, intuition is real and valuable, all the same.

[Tex2]

Skeptic, you're full of BS. Do you think I will put you in some kind of a transe if we talk on the phone? Do you know there have been price cuts this year, with rumors of more significant price cuts later this year?

Do you have even a single clue? Answer: NO.

[Almo]

Like when you say the conference call is to "recruit" anyone. All you have to do is HANG UP! LOL

Then you have their phone number and it's all over.

[Tex2]

Almo, there are instructions on my blog how to call without your number being known. Besides, there are laws against calling someone who doesn't want you to call them. Personal attack removed
Please read rule 12 and do not attack the arguer, especially in the Public Forums.

[Skeptic]

Skeptic, you're full of BS.

Tsk tsk tsk. So much for "winning friends and influencing people". Oh wait -- you're only acting nice with people you think you can sell Amway stuff to. That's what the "tools" say...

Do you think I will put you in some kind of a transe if we talk on the phone?... there are instructions on my blog how to call without your number being known...

Let me get this straight: you want ME to call YOU so that YOU could tell ME how "full of BS" I am? I don't know how to tell you this, but Monty Python's "Argument" sketch ("Hello, I'm here for an argument -- I'm sorry, this is abuse...") is a joke, not a guide for business pactice.

[Tex2]

The books is how to win FRIENDS (I don't want to be friends with an idiot) and influence PEOPLE (you may be a person, but you're close enough to the edge of being a crazy animal for me to care to split hairs). You are trying to misuse the content of the book. Get a clue.

No, I want you to call the number so I can EDUCATE you. But if you're too chicken, that's fine with me. I can't cluck. LOL

Rule 12 violation removed.
Attack the argument, not the arguer.

[Skeptic]

The books is how to win FRIENDS (I don't want to be friends with an idiot) and influence PEOPLE (you may be a person, but you're close enough to the edge of being a crazy animal for me to care to split hairs). You are trying to misuse the content of the book. Get a clue.

And to think I am refusing the honor of a personal, heart-to-heart talk with this guy...

No, I want you to call the number so I can EDUCATE you.

Oh, but of course. When I want to be educated, my first choice to call a guy who tells me I'm full of BS, an idiot, and a subhuman crazed animal. Gee, how can I refuse?

Anyway, okay, then, educate me here:

1). How much are you making in Amway, RIGHT NOW -- this month? Please, no talk about the "potential" and the "coming growth" and the rest of that nonsense. Just what you're making now, please. (After expenses, I mean. And yes, "tools" count as expenses.)

2). How many retail customers do you have RIGHT NOW -- this month -- who are NOT either (a) your "downline", or (b) members of your, or your "downline"'s, family?

Please fill me in. We idiot subhumans have a right to know, you know.

After all, if I'm going to take the abuse, I want to make sure I'm taking lessons from a succesful man, not from a wannabe millionaire who'se making less in Amway than he could make flipping burgers, no offense to burger-flippers (who are actually making a product people want to buy, which is more than I can say for Amway reps) intended.

[Bob Klase]

And to think I am refusing the honor of a personal, heart-to-heart talk with this guy...


I believe that you and Tex2 are not talking about the same book. You appear to be referring to the well known 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' while he seems to be using the lesser known sequel "How to Influence Everyone through Effectiveless Ad Hominem arguments".

[Skeptic]

Well, as many of the "tools" and "conferences" are (in effect) a list of insults at the BROKE LOSERS who aren't doing Amway, I'm not surprised that's his method.

[Tex2]

You want details, you make a phone call.

[Bob Klase]

You want details, you make a phone call.

You want credibility, you give details.

ETA: Just kidding, that probably wouldn't be enough to get your credibility back.

[Skeptic]

You want details, you make a phone call.

Wait, let me guess:

1). You're losing money.

2). You have no real customers. They only people who buy from you are your "dowline" and your (or their) long-suffering family.

How did I know? Well, for one thing, that's the situation with over 95% or so of Amway reps, so I have at least a 19-in-20 chance of being correct. Good enough for government work. Seond, and most important, if you were making money or had actual cutomers, you wouldn't shut up about it. But you talk about everything concerning Amway EXCEPT for how much you're making and how many customers you have. THAT is for some reason a secret... and we have to call you to find out... gee, I wonder why.

The "tools" have taught you well, by the way: they spend a lot of time teaching the Amway neophite how to hide the fact that he's losing money in the "great opportunity" from potential marks, I mean "downline". One of the usual tricks is to pretend there is some oh-very-important reason why you just CAN'T tell potential suckers how much you are actually making online, you must do so over the phone; once you get the suckers on the phone, there's another reason why you can't tell them how much you make over the phone, only in person; once you meet in person, you can only tell them how much you make after they sign up, etc., etc. -- in short, delaying indefinitely the moment of truth, until the marks are hooked.

[Tex2]

Bob/Skeptic, I guess you WANT to stay clueless. Your choice.

[Bob Klase]

Bob/Skeptic, I guess you WANT to stay clueless. Your choice.

ETA: I thought multiple choice might give you a better chance:

A. Only you have the 'real truth'- unlike those other losers who have tried to recruit me into Amway over the last 40 years.

B. I prefer a teaspoon of credibility when someone offers to help save me from 'cluelessness'.

C. I don't need to hear how to get rich from someone who heard from somebody how to get rich.

D. Bernie Madoff didn't suck me in either.

E. All of the above.

I bow to your infinite grasp of "the real truth".

[Tex2]

Bob, you should bow to anyone who has a speck of truth. LOL

[Tricky]

Everyone, please refrain from bickering and personal attacks.

[Bob Klase]

Bob, you should bow to anyone who has a speck of truth. LOL

Edited: Deleted to keep Tricky happy.

[Tex2]

Does the other poster have to be a person in order to have a person[al] attack on them?

[corplinx]

In any other thread on the forum, people provide links/text/etc to back up what they are saying. This has to be the first one where instead of just providing the info, we are invited to dial up a stranger on the phone.

That's just plain creepy.

[BenBurch]

Dale Carnegie - you should read it again, Tex. And reflect on how you deal with people, OK?

And if you do, it might make you consider something other than Amway as a profession.

[Tex2]

corp, feel free to review the information on my blog: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

I think it's just plain creepy a grown man is scared of a telephone call. LOL

Ben, get a clue. I treat REAL humans much better than the totally illogical ones on this thread. LOL

[Vermonter]

Tex, you're barking up the wrong tree. Calling people cowards and animals won't do anything for you except bring about the almighty Banhammer. No one wants to call you because you've been abusive to everyone except for ysabella. Why would someone call you if you're going to belittle them on the phone and tell them how stupid they are? Seriously.

[Skeptic]

I checked Tex's blog.

Needless to say, tons of stuff about Amway in general -- not a word about how much he's actually making, or how many customers he has.

Why I am not surprised?

[Skeptic]

Ben, get a clue. I treat REAL humans much better than the totally illogical ones on this thread. LOL

"Real humans" = people who aren't skeptical of Amway.

It is typical of cults, like Amway, to consider those who question the cult's dogma to be subhuman.

The sad thing is, this isn't a random insult -- he really believes it.

[Skeptic]

No one wants to call you because you've been abusive to everyone except for ysabella.

Yes, but SHE is a POTENTIAL CUSTOMER, so all those "how to be successful" manuals tell him to pretend to be nice to her, as if he actually cared. Isn't that sweet? See him change his tune instantly, the moment she says "no" to his sales spiel.

By the way, for the most part (with some rare exceptions) the writers of these "how to succeed" and "how to become rich" manuals are not succesful men, but poor slobs; as G. K. Chesterton said almost a century ago, it is hard to take seriously books about success written by those who cannot even succeed in writing books.

He certainly had their number (http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/success.html), no pun intended.

[Skeptic]

Well, Tex constantly refuses to say how much he makes or how many customers he's got. I guess we'll all have to stay in deep ignorance, stupidly believing he's losing money and has no real customers, JUST BECAUSE that's the case with 95% of the distributors, and we're not willing to talk to abusive stranges on the phone (on our dime, too...)

[Skeptic]

Why would someone call you if you're going to belittle them on the phone and tell them how stupid they are?

Monty Python would be pleased with Tex's automated answering service: "If you're calling for an argument, please press '1'; if you're calling for abuse, please press '2'".

[Richard Masters]

Yes, but SHE is a POTENTIAL CUSTOMER, so all those "how to be successful" manuals tell him to pretend to be nice to her, as if he actually cared. Isn't that sweet? See him change his tune instantly, the moment she says "no" to his sales spiel.

By the way, for the most part (with some rare exceptions) the writers of these "how to succeed" and "how to become rich" manuals are not succesful men, but poor slobs; as G. K. Chesterton said almost a century ago, it is hard to take seriously books about success written by those who cannot even succeed in writing books.

He certainly had their number (http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/success.html), no pun intended.

And some of the successful people who write those books, make up anecdotes and give unrealistic or bad advice that had little to do with their success. For example Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki.

[Skeptic]

Kiyosaki was not successful in real estate. Like most of the small number of "how to be successful" authors who ARE successful, he is succesful in selling books, and not much else.

[Richard Masters]

Kiyosaki was not successful in real estate. Like most of the small number of "how to be successful" authors who ARE successful, he is succesful in selling books, and not much else.

Didn't know that. It's like selling unproven tools, then attributing your earnings to the content and not the actual sales.

Which is like multi-level marketers who pretend to be rich from Amway, so they can sell you Amway.

[Skeptic]

Always ask yourself: if someone has the SECRET of getting rich, why is he selling it to you for $19.95? The answer, of course, is that the "secret" for their own success (if they have any) is selling lots of books, not in business.

Truly successful people, like, say, Bill Gates or Lee Ayacoca (spelling?), sometimes write books, or have books ghosted, about themselves: usually biographies, sometimes, books about how they see their industry. Did you ever notice how THEY never write "how to become rich in ten easy lessons" books?

[Richard Masters]

Always ask yourself: if someone has the SECRET of getting rich, why is he selling it to you for $19.95? The answer, of course, is that the "secret" for their own success (if they have any) is selling lots of books, not in business.

Truly successful people, like, say, Bill Gates or Lee Ayacoca (spelling?), sometimes write books, or have books ghosted, about themselves: usually biographies, sometimes, books about how they see their industry. Did you ever notice how THEY never write "how to become rich in ten easy lessons" books?

Good point. Plus, anyone can write a book or make tapes. Take Kevin Trudeau, for example.

[Tex2]

Yawn....

[Richard Masters]

Yawn....

Funny. Your posts are invariably free of content. Just like all those books and tool scams.

[Skeptic]

The comical writers Chris Buckley and John Tierney wrote a spoof of these "self-help" and "success" books, God is my Broker. The book flopped -- not because they have no talent, but because the genre is beyound parody.

"Brother Ty"'s "laws of success" in the book include, for instance, "God loves the poor, but that doesn't mean he wants you to fly coach". This is no more silly than Chopra's "Go first-class all the way and the universe will respond by giving you the best". Ty's claim that "as long a God knows the truth, it doesn't matter what you tell your customers" is not at all different than the "ethics are for weakings" claims of so many "success" manuals.

[Almo]

I miss Icerat. His level of discourse was much higher. At the very least, the "discussion" continues to show what you can expect from Amway reps.

[Tex2]

Double yawn....

[NobbyNobbs]

Ok, I'll bite. Tex, PM me your #, and I'll call.

I do have a speaking disability though, so I'll be calling via a relay operator, similar to TTY. Let me know the best time to call and the time zone.


Also, do I have permission to relate the contents of our call here on the forum?

[Almo]

Ok, I'll bite. Tex, PM me your #, and I'll call.

I do have a speaking disability though, so I'll be calling via a relay operator, similar to TTY. Let me know the best time to call and the time zone.


Also, do I have permission to relate the contents of our call here on the forum?

I wonder if it will be like the dowsers.

Dowsers: "Give us a chance!"
Randi: "OK big test in Austrialia! Things look ok?"
D: "yeah. easy test."
R: "So what happens if you fail?"
D: "We know dowsing doesn't work."
--they fail--
D: *excuses*

[Tex2]

Nobby, the number is on my site here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/talk-to-tex.html and includes instructions how to keep your telephone number unknown to me. Propose a couple of times/days that are convenient to you, including time zone. Anyone else can call in as well. I suggest you read the information on my site first, it will give you a HUGE head start on the conversation. You can relate anything we talk about on the call. I will have the same opportunity, of course.

[Tex2]

It should be noted to all others on this thread the person who first accepted my conference call suggestion has a speaking disability. What's YOUR excuse? Make it good, it will be documented forever on this forum. LOL

[Almo]

It should be noted to all others on this thread the person who first accepted my conference call suggestion has a speaking disability. What's YOUR excuse? Make it good, it will be documented forever on this forum. LOL

I'm already close to a six-figure income, and I love my job. I couldn't care less about what you might have to say about Amway, beyond what you're willing to share here.

[Tex2]

Almo, thanks. Now we know your 3 favorite words: Me, Myself, and I. LOL

Anyone else?

[Tex2]

Is there nobody else who has the "guts" (as if it took any) to make a simple phone call?

[NobbyNobbs]

It should be noted to all others on this thread the person who first accepted my conference call suggestion has a speaking disability. What's YOUR excuse? Make it good, it will be documented forever on this forum. LOL

Before we move on, I'd like to know what my speaking disability has to do with making the call, besides the technical aspects. It certainly doesn't reflect on my intelligence or skepticism, nor anyone else's.


Before I make the call, are there any particular questions folks would like asked on their behalf?

[Almo]

Before we move on, I'd like to know what my speaking disability has to do with making the call, besides the technical aspects. It certainly doesn't reflect on my intelligence or skepticism, nor anyone else's.


Before I make the call, are there any particular questions folks would like asked on their behalf?

The question, I think, on everyone's mind is: "How many customers outside the pyramid do you have?"

[BenBurch]

... Ben, get a clue. I treat REAL humans much better than the totally illogical ones on this thread. LOL

That you would say something like that shows me you really do need to re-read Dale Carnegie.

Your public Library will absolutely have a copy, or can get it via inter-library loan.

Do yourself a favor, and read it, OK?

You'll thank me later.

[BenBurch]

Well, tex appears to be taking a forced vacation. Perhaps he will take the opportunity to read the book.

[corplinx]

I read Tex's blog. I don't understand why anyone would continue to operate in a business so rife with fraud, coercion, and heavy handedness as he describes it.

[BenBurch]

I read Tex's blog. I don't understand why anyone would continue to operate in a business so rife with fraud, coercion, and heavy handedness as he describes it.

Hell, even selling used cars sounds like a nicer option than he describes his profession.

[Skeptic]

The question, I think, on everyone's mind is: "How many customers outside the pyramid do you have?"

And, "how much money are you actually making?"

[Furcifer]

I read Tex's blog. I don't understand why anyone would continue to operate in a business so rife with fraud, coercion, and heavy handedness as he describes it.

That's what I've been saying from day 1. Above and beyond that, why buy from them either? I mean if you like their "energy" drinks or something go for it, it's your dollar. But the rest of the crap is obviously overpriced in order to support the "pyramid", even if you're foolish enough to become a member.

[Vermonter]

I like working a steady job. I know exactly how much I make a year, and I have free time during the week and weekend. I happen to like what I do for a living.

Vector tried getting me into their salesteam selling CutCo Cutlerly. They tried using the same tactics of spending money before you could make money (you had to buy their kit, and the recruiters tried pressuring me into getting my folks to buy it for me - I was 20 at the time), getting a list made of of potential customers (going so far to berate me for not giving them 100 names like the other two folks there) and worst of all, promising us pizza - and then springing the trap of us having to pay for it. Yeah, those jerks. I told them no thanks and a few months later I was in college. Direct marketing, yeah...

[Tex2]

Before we move on, I'd like to know what my speaking disability has to do with making the call, besides the technical aspects. It certainly doesn't reflect on my intelligence or skepticism, nor anyone else's.I have a golfing "disability", so when someone wants to go play golf, I generally don't show much interest. However, when it comes to speaking, the others really don't have a "disability" excuse they can use, as speaking is a normal capability, not a specialized one like golf. Their non-response has much more to do with a "disability" with the facts and use of logic. However, I still find it amusing you were the only one to take me up on my request, which is not a reflection on you, your intelligence or skepticism, but a reflection on the others' above mentioned "disabilities." LOL

[Rairun]

To be honest, it just makes it sound like you have ulterior motives. I don't see why you wouldn't want share relevant information here for everyone to see.

[Vermonter]

I don't know, I find it entertaining the way he and Icerat dodge questions like Neo dodges bullets. I have a morbid curiosity in this. :popcorn:

They certainly haven't won any Internet Points, that's for sure.

[Tex2]

Relevant information is on my site, why should I repeat it here? Go read it and comment here or on my site. I just added some detail to the thread http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

Go read it and comment.

[Tex2]

I haven't dodged questions, but you guys have, constantly.

I'm not looking to win any Internet Points (whatever that means), I'm looking to shut down a tool scam so others aren't scammed in the future.

[Vermonter]

Right, so they instead join your club and get scammed otherwise.

How much do you make at Amway per year?

[Tex2]

How could anyone join my "club and get scammed otherwise? You probably don't even understand how I run my business.

How much do you make at your steady job, and how steady do you think it is? Do you realize over one of ten folks who want to work can't find work right now?

[Vermonter]

You don't read, do you? I already posted that info. I make over $45k a year without a college degree doing IT support in healthcare. It's extremely steady.

Go ahead, enlighten us. How do you "run your business?" You still didn't answer my question.

[corplinx]

You probably don't even understand how I run my business.

I read your blog. You obviously aren't a fan of the tools income.

That leaves you with:
1. Moving Product
2. Recruiting

How much of your income percentage wise comes from each?

Humor me here.

[Ferguson]

How could anyone join my "club and get scammed otherwise? You probably don't even understand how I run my business.

How much do you make at your steady job, and how steady do you think it is? Do you realize over one of ten folks who want to work can't find work right now?

And unfortunately many of those "over one of ten folks" out of desperation will fall prey to MLM scams and lose what little savings they have left.

[Tex2]

If you all want to know the details, it will take a phone call. If you can't do it today, I'll be out of the country for a week and we can do it next week. The ball is in your court.

[Delscottio]

If you all want to know the details, it will take a phone call. If you can't do it today, I'll be out of the country for a week and we can do it next week. The ball is in your court.

Why does it have to be over the phone? Its a message board for crying out loud. This just smacks of "upping the anti".

[NewtonTrino]

Just to throw my income hat in the ring I pay myself $150k a year (hey isn't that what an average diamond makes?). I am partners with another guy and we own the vast majority of the company between us so depending on how business goes there can be other bonuses to us (and we pay our employees well in salary and bonuses, the average salary at our company is about $100k). I expect this year to end up with $3.5M in revenue and about $500k in profit which will go into capital reserves as we are trying to get those built out to at least 1 year of operating expenses (this is when we start paying everything above that out as bonuses). Anyway just putting it out there so nobody can say I'm not forthcoming about the information I'm asking for of other people.

Anyway, I was away for a week on an Alaskan cruise with my Dad. I had a bit of an opportunity to talk Amway with him although we generally avoid the subject. He gave me one of the books they are giving to prospects called "Household Gold" which I read.

Household Gold (How to Convert Household Expenses into Household Income) (Paperback)
by Steve W. Price (Author)

This "book" was a freakin joke. It basically read like a site you would find if you clicked on some internet ad for "make money from home". To sum it up a) people need to buy consumables like soap b) Wal -Mart sells consumables and they are billionaires (the actual kids of Sam Walton are specifically mentioned) c) don't you want to be rich like Wal-mart? then become an IBO with our system (Amway not mentioned, no specific business, probably easier to sell more books that way). Oh also it was written at a 3rd grade level and it was less than 100 pages, it had large type, it had many blank or quote pages, it had many WORDS randomly capitalized, lots of !!!!!!, had many large diagrams that didn't convey useful information etc.

Wow!
^-- actual paragraph example

I can't find any information on the author at all. Bottom line is that only a sucker would buy the arguments in the book.

Anyway my Dad's attitude pretty much is identical to Icerat so I needn't bother you with the details of our discussion. I did mention Doug Wead and he scoffed basically saying that he'd gone crazy, quit the business and was doing something else now. I guess Mr. Wead is out of the club now due to his somewhat honesty about the scam on his blog. He also told me that Jack Reid recently died of cancer. I knew Jack and although he was one of the guys making money from tools he still a good guy so RIP Jack Reid.

Alaska was nice I won $400 in the $1/$2 no-limit cash game one night. Our suite was decent and it was really nice to just hang on the balcony and watch the coastline go by. I wish I had brought some weed with me though...

[Skeptic]

Tex: "All the details are on my web page."

Us: "Er, we don't actually see how much money you make in Amway after expenses, or how many retail customers you've got."

Tex: "To get THAT super-duper-secret information, you'll have to call me!"

We get it, Tex, we get it.

You have no customers who aren't in the pyramid themselves, and you're losing money (or making less than minimum wage) in this "great opportunity".

[NewtonTrino]

Tex is yet another example of how difficult it is to shake the programming they do. He knows the tools are a scam but is still a true believer in the business. PT Barnum (supposedly) said it best.

[Vermonter]

If you all want to know the details, it will take a phone call. If you can't do it today, I'll be out of the country for a week and we can do it next week. The ball is in your court.

BZZT! Wrong! It doesn't work that way. See, I could have predicted the dodge and won myself a million bux! Come on Tex, aren't you going to try again? No one's going to call your hotline.

[corplinx]

If you all want to know the details, it will take a phone call. If you can't do it today, I'll be out of the country for a week and we can do it next week. The ball is in your court.

I read your blog. You obviously aren't a fan of the tools income.

That leaves you with:
1. Moving Product
2. Recruiting

How much of your income percentage wise comes from each?

Humor me here. The ball is back in your court.

[Tex2]

You are ALL wrong and completely clueless. I've repeated my position too many times on too many blogs/forums. Read my site and set up a call or no dice.

[Vermonter]

You are ALL wrong and completely clueless. I've repeated my position too many times on too many blogs/forums. Read my site and set up a call or no dice.

Then you good sir are a troll. Prove us wrong.

[Tex2]

Wrong again. At least you're consistent. LOL

[corplinx]

You are ALL wrong and completely clueless. I've repeated my position too many times on too many blogs/forums. Read my site and set up a call or no dice.

I read your blog. You seem to be anti-tools as a main source of income.

This means your money must come from:
1. Moving product
2. Recruiting new people.

What would say your split is on that? Which one provides you more scratch? Why can you not answer this without a phone call?

Here are more questions:
1. Your blog makes the amway inner circles look like some sort of thugocracy where you get threatened for talking about the tool scams. Why do you wish to keep working in these circles? Is it your unshakeable belief in the product quality?
2. Of the product you do move, what is your number 1 mover?
3. How much product do you personally buy and use during the course of a year? Do you think of it sort of like a Costco membership where you save money by buying things you would buy otherwise?
4. What is Amway's most recession proof product?
5. Instead of taking phone calls from everyone interested in these simple questions and answers, why don't you wish to just answer here and save everyone's valuable time?

I for one don't believe that everyone involved in Amway is necessarily a scammer or a mark. However, I have no interest in talking with anyone on a phone line. A forum is a fine way to communicate. If you prefer not to "talk shop" in the open where other Amway people can read it, feel free to PM the info.

[Tex2]

Make the call, but your time has run out until next week.

[corplinx]

Make the call, but your time has run out until next week.

Evasion noted. I went to a fourth of July party today. There were many people of many professions. None of them, when asked about their professions refused to talk in front of others and demand I call them at home to discuss it.

You can imagine what it looks like then to an outside observer that you refuse to answer any questions in a public forum. Most people who act like this, are called "drug dealers" or work in derivatives trading.

Edited to add:

I am what you would call a "unix guru". Specifically, I design, implement, and maintain large scale cluster of web services systems for a fortune 100 company. The only place to move higher in my profession is perhaps to work for google (although it could be a purely horizontal move as well). I make what we call "good money" for what I do, since very few people can actually cobble together a backup system using ufsdump/e2fsdump/tcpmux/ksh/perl for thousands of hosts. Most IT people are technology users. Very few are technology creators.

That is what I do and I don't need anybody to call me on the phone to explain it. Moreover, I don't need to supplement my income with anyway other work. I don't need a sales pitch. I need candid answers which any reasonable person should be able to provide without cryptic responses or the need to talk in private.

If you can't explain what you do in a few sentences in public, then you either work for a few select divisions of the government or do something so heinous or ridiculous that you can't explain it in public because it either causes incarceration or embarrassment.

[NewtonTrino]

Nice post corplinx.

Keep in mind you are dealing with people that are completely brainwashed. Think scientology and you aren't far off (including at times the thuggery and threats).

[NewtonTrino]

BTW I told my Dad that if he prospects people in front of me that I will give them the "alternate" pitch (e.g. tell them it's a scam). Sometimes it's awkward to be at dinner and have someone in your party pitching Amway to the serving staff. Or the gas station attendant. Or the grocery checker. You get the idea ;)

[Tex2]

You guys still don't get it. Not my problem.

[Tex2]

corplinx,

The difference is they didn't say, "Let's get on a forum and write about it," they TALKED about it. I have found forums very prone to misunderstandings. Talking, whether in person or on the phone, makes communication MUCH better, especially when a complex subject such as Amway is being discussed. It's YOUR choice to remain on the call if I start trying to recruit you, "insult" you, etc., etc., etc. All it takes is a simple "click" of the phone and you're gone. You actually have MORE control than on this forum, where it is recorded, or a conversation, where physical presence makes "hanging up" more challenging.

[realpaladin]

So, Tex, if I call, what, besides long distance charges, will it cost me per minute?

[Skeptic]

You are ALL wrong and completely clueless.

Well, of course we are.

How much money are you making in Amway a year, after expenses?

[Skeptic]

Make the call, but your time has run out until next week.

Drat!

[NobbyNobbs]

(and we pay our employees well in salary and bonuses, the average salary at our company is about $100k).


Are you hiring? (Only half-joking.)

[Hokulele]

corplinx,

The difference is they didn't say, "Let's get on a forum and write about it," they TALKED about it. I have found forums very prone to misunderstandings. Talking, whether in person or on the phone, makes communication MUCH better, especially when a complex subject such as Amway is being discussed. It's YOUR choice to remain on the call if I start trying to recruit you, "insult" you, etc., etc., etc. All it takes is a simple "click" of the phone and you're gone. You actually have MORE control than on this forum, where it is recorded, or a conversation, where physical presence makes "hanging up" more challenging.


I have found the exact opposite to be true in real life. "Get it in writing" isn't just good advice, but absolutely required for any professional business dealings. Unless the call is recorded and made public (Would you
accept that condition?), it is very easy to misremember/misrepresent what was said. It is also very easy for one person to dominate the conversation and to have pertinent questions missed.

If I were to look at a new business opportunity, I would refuse to participate without a complete and verifiable prospectus in writing.