Amway TV ad

[icerat]

I did lie. I made up the price for the Costco vitamins. When I actually did waste my time looking all that up, naturally I found that the Kirkland line was substantially cheaper - and met quality control standards the Amway can't or doesn't choose to - but that part's not made up.

Really? And which standard is that? Nutrilite does over 15,000 quality control tests a month, it was the first brand certified by the NSF and manufactures to FDA GMP standards - Kirkland advertises itself as certified by USP, which is lower standards than FDA GMP.

...on the other hand you dedicate an entire page on your site of deception trying to justify the excessive price of Nutrilite products because 'natural' vitamin C is better than artificial vitamin C (any proof for that? Right, dumb question)...and alfalfa is expensive. Sure is! We pay about $4.00 a bail delivered! That MORE than justifies $80 vitamins.

Dishonesty or an inability to read? The article you are referencing suggests that fruit and vegetables is a better source of Vitamin C than factory synthesised Vitamin C (and specifically acerola cherries). And there's A LOT of evidence to support that.

So, seems you like to make excuses and continue to spin in whichever direction your unethical position takes you...and ignore why both the FTC and Amway have explicit rules requiring sales to non-IBOs.

The FTC has no explict rules requiring sales to non-IBOs, that's a complete lie (dishonesty - again!). Amway does in some countries, and not in other countries, and it even varies depending on your level - but that's a different issue altogether. IMO, and obviously Amway's, it's much more sensible to have customers than not, for a variety of reasons.

It's hard to hang around Amway and the likes of you without SOME of that 'valuable training' rubbing off on us.

That appears to be an outright admission you're dishonest.

So while Tex tries to slay the tool-dragon by getting kicked off every forum on the internet (one at a time, of course), I am comfortable that you have been equally effective in changing anyone's mind about Amway.

My "inbox" says otherwise.

[oggiesnr]

UK earnings figures for 2008 -

AMWAY EARNINGS DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

Date of Issue: 21 July 2008

Amway is committed to providing earnings disclosure information to actual and prospective ABOs to help them to assess the business opportunity.

The data set out below covers the period October 2007 to end June 2008 inclusive (“the Specified Period”) and has been independently verified to ensure accuracy. All figures are based on ABOs in the UK and Republic of Ireland registered with Amway during the Specified Period.

All monetary values are in Pounds Sterling unless otherwise denoted. All earnings in Euro values were converted to Pounds Sterling using the exchange rate applicable for the month the data was extracted.

During the period 1 May 2007 to 21 July 2008 there has been a moratorium on the registration of new ABOs which is likely to have affected earnings levels. The moratorium was lifted on 21 July 2008 (although certain restrictions remain in place) and updated earnings data will be published at an appropriate time and in any event no later than 1 January 2009.

RETAIL CONSULTANTS

A - Total number of Retail Consultants registered during the period = 5,582

This is the number of Retail Consultants registered with Amway as at 12 June 2008.

B - Total number of Retail Consultants earning a Customer Volume Rebate (“CVR”) = 2,384

This is the number of Retail Consultants in Category A who earned a CVR at least once
during the Specified Period.

C - Average monthly CVR for Retail Consultants earning a CVR = £47 / €70.50
This is the total amount of CVR paid to Retail Consultants during the Specified Period
divided by the number of payments.

D - Highest total CVR earned by a Retail Consultant = £732 / €1,098
This is highest, individual, monthly CVR payment made to a Retail Consultant in the
Specified Period.

E - Lowest total CVR earned by a Retail Consultant = £21 / €31.50
This is lowest, individual, monthly CVR payment made to a Retail Consultant in the
Specified Period
.
CERTIFIED RETAIL CONSULTANTS

F - Total number of Certified Retail Consultants registered during the Specified Period = 3,888
This is the number of Certified Retail Consultants registered with Amway as
at 12 June 2008.

G - Total number of Certified Retail Consultants earning a CVR or bonus income = 2,053
This is the number of Certified Retail Consultants in Category F who earned a CVR
or bonus payment at least once during the Specified Period.

H - Average income of Certified Retail Consultants earning a CVR or bonus = £92 / €138
This is the average monthly income of all registered Certified Retail Consultants during
the Specified Period.

I - Highest total earnings by a Certified Retail Consultant = £2,683 / €4,024.50
This is highest, individual, monthly earnings of any Certified Retail Consultant during
the Specified Period.

J - Lowest total earnings by a Certified Retail Consultant = £18 / €27
This is lowest, individual, monthly earnings of any Certified Retail Consultant during
the Specified Period.

BUSINESS CONSULTANTS
K - Total number of Business Consultants during the Specified Period = 98
This is the number of Business Consultants registered with Amway as
at 12 June 2008.

L - Average income of Business Consultants during the Specified Period = £830 / €1,245
This is the average monthly income of Business Consultants registered with
Amway.

M - Total number of new Business Consultants qualifying as such during the Specified Period

This figure will be published when available.

N Minimum income levels for qualification at Platinum, Emerald and Diamond Level

Platinum £7,000 €10,500

Emerald £15,000 €22,500

Diamond £50,000 €75,000

O - Number of Business Consultants qualified at Platinum, Emerald and Diamond Level during the Period

Platinum 90

Emerald 7

Diamond 1

Amway (UK) Limited, St Anne’s House, Caldecotte Lake Drive,
Caldecotte Business Park, Caldecotte, Milton Keynes MK7 8JU
Telephone: +44 (0)1908 629400 Fax: +44 (0)1908 629402
SKU 232484B

Anyone care to comment or do the figures say it all.

Steve

[oggiesnr]

According to the figures above, Platinums are not early adopters.

Steve

[icerat]

UK earnings figures for 2008 -

Anyone care to comment or do the figures say it all.

Steve

The figures say very little alas. They are a "first edition" after the conclusion of the BERR vs Amway case. For virtually all of the period under consideration Amway had a moratorium on sponsoring, they kicked out a bunch of people, and virtually all training was shutdown (all at the instigation of Amway and/or ABOs).

One thing it does tell you is that even when Amway has no sponsoring for more than a year, there's still quite a few people making money. So much for it being a pyramid.

The UK setup is different from anywhere else and somewhat experimental. I personally like some of the things they've done. It's going to be very interesting to see what the stats "say" as Amway UK gets moving again. (http://www.amwaywatch.com/western-europe/united-kingdom/325-amway-uk-ready-to-expand.html)

[Almo]

I want to see the spin on these numbers. They're about as impressive as the figures stated in the Amway ad mentioned in the OP.

ETA: Icerat got in before I clicked submit.

[NewtonTrino]

The numbers are rather pathetic.

I'll start believing people in Amway make money when we get someone on here who is doing it and actually making money.

BTW I scoff at many of the points in Icerats last reply to me. Talk about spin. Come back when you have some proof that anyone in Amway makes a profit that isn't based on selling tools.

[icerat]

The numbers are rather pathetic.

I'll start believing people in Amway make money when we get someone on here who is doing it and actually making money.

BTW I scoff at many of the points in Icerats last reply to me. Talk about spin. Come back when you have some proof that anyone in Amway makes a profit that isn't based on selling tools.

Which just emphasised my point. *I* made a proft without no tool income. I've already said that, you simply reject it as untrue. If I posted numbers from a tax return, why would you believe them any more than any other numbers I post? In one similar conversation I had with a critic, it ended up to the point where they wanted the names and phone numbers of every person in my group so they could confirm details, and without that they wouldn't believe me.

So I know it would make no difference to your belief, you have them as a matter of faith, and faith rarely changes in the face of reality.

[CynicalSkeptic]

*I* made a proft without no tool income.
Was the double-negative intentional or a Freudian slip?

If I posted numbers from a tax return, why would you believe them any more than any other numbers I post?
Have you actually posted any numbers at all (from your personal IBO)?

[Porkchopjim]

Ahhh – the feigned indignation of Icerat/Insider/IBOFightback!!!!


Kirkland advertises itself as certified by USP, which is lower standards than FDA GMP.

USP includes GMP, so it can hardly be a 'lower' standard. Doesn't work the other way around, but nice try!

Dishonesty or an inability to read? The article you are referencing suggests that fruit and vegetables is a better source of Vitamin C than factory synthesised Vitamin C (and specifically acerola cherries). And there's A LOT of evidence to support that.

“Suggests” being a key word in the murky world of overpriced vitamins, isn't it?

There's no doubt that fruits and veggies are better than a pill. Just hard to justify that the chemical processing of those fruit/veggie vitamins into pills is somehow superior to a pure chemical synthesized one – when we're talking about the exact same compound. Homeopathy, maybe?



The FTC has no explict rules requiring sales to non-IBOs, that's a complete lie (dishonesty - again!). Amway does in some countries...

The FTC cites sales to non-IBOs in FTC vs. Amway. Must just be bad wording on their part? With no sales outside the pyramid, the newest members provide the profit for the older members. Amway does have explicit requirements for sales to non-IBOs in the USA.



My "inbox" says otherwise.

No doubt there is a large market for Amway distributors looking for someone other than their upline cult leadership to tell them that they made a wise decision in hyper-consuming Amway products as a means to care-free financial security!


You see, lads, Insider has given up on hanging out on forums where his ‘arguments’ have been discredited. He has normally sequesters himself to his cult retention website where it’s “Amway Rules/The Critics Are Stupid” 24/7. But, since it’s sworn duty to defend the cult (when he’s not busy hosting websites for brothels), he has google alerts for any discussion of Amway…and in true cult form goes screaming over there to try to prove it’s not a cult. The odds are good that folks there, while they may have a bad impression of Amway, do not know the money-grubbing cult that the ‘business opportunity’ has morphed into. He counts on the probability that his well rehearsed shtick, and it’s well rehearsed, passes as fact.

Unfortunately, he found his way here and looked like he was not terribly successful, but then he goes and tosses out the ‘critics are liars’ desperate defense.

Here are the facts about his ‘Nutrilite’ pricing, which he crows about being “Number one” – based on dollar sales and not volume. Dollar sales almost exclusively to Amway distributors themselves trying desperately to keep their ‘business volume’ up by purchasing their own products.

His ‘powerhouse’ product that he has implied is responsible for being ‘Number One’ is the cheapest one they sell. It’s not cheap, though:

Nutrilite Daily: as he says, $11.30 retail for 90 pills.
Kirkland (Costco) – my example: $15.99 for 600 pills.His vitamin is 370% more expensive than Kirkland. Amway wins!

OK – while his cheapest vitamin is the one that has the best chance of being sold to a retail customer, if an Amway distributor buys if for himself, he only pays in the $7-$8 range. I will not give out the exact price.

Anyway, at Amway distributor’s price, it’s only 206% more expensive than Kirkland.

All right, not fair. Kirkland is an exemplar affordable and high quality vitamin, but I doubt it has significant market share. Let’s look at Centrum!

Centrum: $17.49 for 250 pills. Walgreens online price.
At full retail, Nutrilite Daily is 79% more expensive. At distributor price, it’s only 17% more expensive.

You have to be well on your way up the chain to get your 17% back.

Insider/Icerat knows that. He was hoping no one else here did. In true fraud fashion, sometimes that doesn’t always work.

[NewtonTrino]

Actually Icerat if you posted some detail profit information I would take it at face value if it looked real. All you've said is that you had the business up to several thousand a month in profit at one point. What was your yearly PROFIT for your best year? What were your expenses? How much in bonuses vs retail sales? etc. I have yet to see ANYONE post anything with detail. I posted rough detail for my business in the thread a few pages back and I would be willing to talk about it in more detail if it was relevant.

[icerat]

USP includes GMP, so it can hardly be a 'lower' standard. Doesn't work the other way around, but nice try!

Well that's new. USP is an older standard and I didn't realise they now "included" GMP. There doesn't seem to be anything more than GMP though.

“Suggests” being a key word in the murky world of overpriced vitamins, isn't it?

I take it you believe that all that really matters in an orange is the ascorbic acid and macronutrients?

There's no doubt that fruits and veggies are better than a pill. Just hard to justify that the chemical processing of those fruit/veggie vitamins into pills is somehow superior to a pure chemical synthesized one – when we're talking about the exact same compound. Homeopathy, maybe?

Nutrilite products are not "chemically processed" - and we are not talking about "the exact same compound". Plants contain many, many, many more compounds than are found in isolated synthetics. You apparently haven't read the article you mentioned - The Nutrilite Difference (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/the-nutrilite-difference/)

The FTC cites sales to non-IBOs in FTC vs. Amway. Must just be bad wording on their part?

No, just bad comprehension on your part. Significant sales to non-IBOs are sufficient evidence something is not a pyramid. No sales to non-IBOs is not evidence something is a pyramid.

Nutrilite Daily: as he says, $11.30 retail for 90 pills.
Kirkland (Costco) – my example: $15.99 for 600 pills.His vitamin is 370% more expensive than Kirkland. Amway wins!

Oh, my mistake ... I actually BELIEVED YOU when I used your pricing. Silly me, I should have known better.

So, how's the nutrient content compare between Kirkland and Nutrilite? What's the phytonutrient content like in the Kirkland product? How many plant concentrates?

If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Kirkland.

Centrum: $17.49 for 250 pills. Walgreens online price.
At full retail, Nutrilite Daily is 79% more expensive. At distributor price, it’s only 17% more expensive.

And how's the nutrient comparison between the two? How many plant concentrates in the Centrum?

If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Centrum.

[icerat]

NewtonTrino - I already explained the situation. You have chosen not to believe me, not much I can do about that.

[NewtonTrino]

You have explained very little actually.

How many hours did you spend building your business? How much money did you spend? What was your gross income? What was your net?

Anyway I would much rather have this information from someone successful in the business anyway.

[icerat]

I've already told you, that business is still generating income, so it's not even possible to calculate the total income generated. If you wanted to calculate profitability, you'd have to change it on about the 13th of every month ... ka'ching.

Interesting that you think building a business that continues to generate profit a decade later, with no further work, is not "successful".

You set the bar high.

[Rasmus]

I've already told you, that business is still generating income, so it's not even possible to calculate the total income generated. If you wanted to calculate profitability, you'd have to change it on about the 13th of every month ... ka'ching.

I think you have used this argument before. It didn't mnake sense then, either. What's stopping you from reporting those numbers for any given date and just estimate your current monthly earnings.

Interesting that you think building a business that continues to generate profit a decade later, with no further work, is not "successful"

It is interesting that you think this would be enough to call your business "successful".

How much profit did you make last month from this business? That's a simple and straightforward question, right?

And even that wouldn't be enough without also knowing how much work and money you used to put into the business and how much it used to make you.

[NewtonTrino]

I anticipate my company continuing to generate money into the future as well. It doesn't mean I can't give a historical record of profit and loss (and investment).

Also past returns are no guarantee of future returns. Future returns are generally calculated into the company valuation at a discounted rate but they have nothing to do with calculating profit/loss for today and the past. In fact we aren't asking you how much your business is WORTH, we are asking how much profit it has made for the amount of work you've put in. Those are different questions.

[Bob Klase]

It is interesting that you think this would be enough to call your business "successful".

I put $10 in a savings account at my bank 20 years ago. It continues to generate profit two decades later with no further work. I must have a successful business.

[icerat]

I think you have used this argument before. It didn't mnake sense then, either. What's stopping you from reporting those numbers for any given date and just estimate your current monthly earnings.

Read back.

It is interesting that you think this would be enough to call your business "successful".

A profitable business isn't successful? I would think that would be enough.

How much profit did you make last month from this business? That's a simple and straightforward question, right?

Sure. Me? None. Read back.

And even that wouldn't be enough without also knowing how much work and money you used to put into the business and how much it used to make you.

Read back.

Put it this way. If it averaged as little as $100/mth (it's more) over that 10 years, that would be equivalent to $24,000 invested at 5%. That's on top of the income earned while building that asset.

I did a lot less than $24,000 worth of hours.

[icerat]

I put $10 in a savings account at my bank 20 years ago. It continues to generate profit two decades later with no further work. I must have a successful business.

No, it's not a business - but you have a successful investment.

[Porkchopjim]

Well that's new. USP is an older standard and I didn't realise they now "included" GMP. There doesn't seem to be anything more than GMP though.


Except all the other stuff, you mean. Suddenly it's gone from not being “GMP” to merely being “GMP.” Don't trip over the laboratory testing (and what they test for) in your rush to embarrass yourself.



I take it you believe that all that really matters in an orange is the ascorbic acid and macronutrients?


According to you, you don't need to invent things that I've said. So don't do it.


Nutrilite products are not "chemically processed" - and we are not talking about "the exact same compound". Plants contain many, many, many more compounds than are found in isolated synthetics.


Oh, I know. They're called 'contaminants' in science. That terminology would be found outside of your “might/suggests/shows promise to increase/decrease/enhance/prevent some tertiary compound/process of dubious benefit” (or harm).

So, unless you can provide a complete listing of the chemical compounds that make up 'alfalfa' and all the other weeds that your overpriced vitamins contain...you don't know WHAT is in them or WHAT they exactly do.


No, just bad comprehension on your part. Significant sales to non-IBOs are sufficient evidence something is not a pyramid. No sales to non-IBOs is not evidence something is a pyramid.


How dare you use the holy trinity of the “Amway Test” - sales to non-ibos, 70% rule and buy back rule- in such a flippant manner. Of course the FTC and courts have NO IDEA what that is. I must have just made that up myself. Plus, it's really not all three...because according to you, sales to non-ibos doesn't mean anything.


Oh, my mistake ... I actually BELIEVED YOU when I used your pricing. Silly me, I should have known better.


Not silly, just a greedy cultist. Seeing as you spend most of your time claiming that I haven't ever provided ANYTHING of truth, you seemed to jump on that tid-bit with gleeful abandon.


So, how's the nutrient content compare between Kirkland and Nutrilite? What's the phytonutrient content like in the Kirkland product? How many plant concentrates?


I LOVE the 'phytonutrient' stuff! I've already made fun of that earlier in this thread! So...just what 'might' these 'phytonutrients' “increase/decrease/enhance/prevent some tertiary compound/process of dubious benefit”?


If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Kirkland.


Claiming your dietary supplement is somehow superior because it contains the equivalent of lawn clippings isn't exactly proof that there is superior nutritional content (oh – there's MORE content, but that doesn't all mean SUPERIOR – see contaminants) that merits roughly $2 a day vs. $.03 a day. And yes, I've bumped it up beyond your ghetto offering of "Daily" vitamins and jumped right to your 'good' stuff. You know, the stuff with all the weeds in it.

Who was the one accusing people of confusing faith with facts? Oh, right, that was you.

Next thing you know, you'll be doing 'Perfect Water' demonstrations. At least people can see the proof right before their eyes!


And how's the nutrient comparison between the two? How many plant concentrates in the Centrum?

If price is all that matters to you, not nutritional content and health benefits, by all means save a few bucks and go for Centrum.


Ahh! The 'price equals quality' argument that Tex likes to use! That is exactly how his 'competitively priced' list came about. Since Amway products are overly expensive, they MUST be high quality (and better!) so they deserve to be judged against the highest priced products you can find in the real world!

Don't equate “overpriced vitamins bought by cultists to artificially boost their business because no one else will buy them” with “bad vitamins.” You can include “vitamins who's content is not defined and contains compounds that there is no data showing either benefit or harm.” If THAT's worth $2 a day to you, I've got an exciting business opportunity you might be interested in...

All your claims of the benefits of 'phytonutrients' and 'plant compounds' that have been pulverised and squashed into overpriced pills are based - from your own statements and references - purely on "might/could/shows promise" advertising disquised as science. If you can't tell the difference, you deserve to pay $2 for a $.03 pill.

P.S. To the 'profit' questioneers: If an IBO can earn back his sign-up fee of roughly $60 within a year's time and doesn't waste any money on stupid tools – they can claim a 'profit.' THAT's the level that Insider/Icerat is talking about.

To be fair to Icy (not that he ever returns the favor), I suspect he probably took in $12-$14K at his peak with a profit of probably $5-$6K when it was said and done. That involved a LOT of sweat and hours to get that far. It's nothing like that now. Reason probably $100-$200 a month, mostly retail. THAT's a realistic Amway business. $100-200K a month isn't.

[Rasmus]

A profitable business isn't successful? I would think that would be enough.

I wouldn't. It only tells me that you have money left over at the end of the month. It doesn't tell me if you would have more money left over if you were vending burgers. And that's just one of the things it doesn't tell me.

[Bob Klase]

No, it's not a business - but you have a successful investment.

If my profit over that 20 years averaged 1% per year 99% of all other banks averaged 8% per year over that 20 years, would mine still count as successful?

If my profit was 50% less than inflation over that 20 years would it still count as successful?

How do you define 'successful'. Most people would consider factors other than ending with more $ than you started with in determining 'success'.

[icerat]

I wouldn't. It only tells me that you have money left over at the end of the month. It doesn't tell me if you would have more money left over if you were vending burgers. And that's just one of the things it doesn't tell me.

Sorry, but I disagree. It tells you it's a successful business, assuming your goal was profit of course.

I agree it doesn't tell you whether it was successful compared to the burger business, and that really depends on what your definition of success is and what your goals were.

I doubt there's any burger businesses that still generates profit for their founders on as little work as I put in to that Amway business.

Personally I find the whole discussion pretty silly. Even a modicum of intelligence and logic applied to knowledge of the business model can show it's possible to make money, and there's a multitude of examples of people who have done that available on http://www.amwaywiki.com in the magazine archives.

[icerat]

If my profit over that 20 years averaged 1% per year 99% of all other banks averaged 8% per year over that 20 years, would mine still count as successful?

Yup, just not as successful as if you had put it in another bank

If my profit was 50% less than inflation over that 20 years would it still count as successful?

No, because then you lost money, you didn't make money.

You do realise that Amway income is inherently indexed to inflation, don't you?

How do you define 'successful'. Most people would consider factors other than ending with more $ than you started with in determining 'success'.

Funny. People spend pages and pages demanding profit and loss statements to "prove" it's possible to make money with an Amway business , and now you keep along and say it wouldn't say anything.

Now you know why people don't bother.

[Bob Klase]

How do you define 'successful'. Most people would consider factors other than ending with more $ than you started with in determining 'success'.

Funny. People spend pages and pages demanding profit and loss statements to "prove" it's possible to make money with an Amway business , and now you keep along and say it wouldn't say anything.

Where did I say it wouldn't mean anything? I said the mere fact that you end with more dollars than you started with doesn't define success. If your profit and loss statement shows that you ended with $1 more than you started with, you would claim that as a profit and a successful business unless you consider other factors. And based on the response you just gave when I said that other factors had to be considered, you don't consider them.

Now you know why people don't bother.

Yes, we do know why you won't bother.

[NewtonTrino]

I did a lot less than $24,000 worth of hours.


How many hours? You've given us very little info to work with here. What was your total hours, total cost and total income for the period you were active?

I can give you number out the wazoo for my business... cause it's a real business ;)

[NewtonTrino]

Personally I find the whole discussion pretty silly. Even a modicum of intelligence and logic applied to knowledge of the business model can show it's possible to make money, and there's a multitude of examples of people who have done that available on http://www.amwaywiki.com in the magazine archives.


We know some people make money. I'm trying to figure out the value proposition.

[icerat]

How many hours? You've given us very little info to work with here. What was your total hours, total cost and total income for the period you were active?

I can give you number out the wazoo for my business... cause it's a real business ;)

Now project yourself 10 years, (at least) 4 other serious ventures, 8 house moves, a divorce, and 3 countries into the future.

Now tell me your numbers.

[icerat]

We know some people make money. I'm trying to figure out the value proposition.

Fine. Do some math. Qualify Diamond for the first time anytime in the next 5 years in Europe, you'll get a one-off bonus of 200,000€ on top of all other income. Plenty of people have qualified Diamond in 5 years or less, so it's possible. Do nothing else, spend 40hrs/wk on Amway and spend all the income earned on the way on expenses building Amway (which would be extremely difficult)

That'll be a 40,000€/yr average income, plus at least one free all expenses paid trip a year. That's nearly twice the average UK income, and you could probably stop working then, or maybe drop to 5-10hrs/wk and earn at least 80,000€/yr.

[oggiesnr]

Fine. Do some math. Qualify Diamond for the first time anytime in the next 5 years in Europe, you'll get a one-off bonus of 200,000€ on top of all other income. Plenty of people have qualified Diamond in 5 years or less, so it's possible. Do nothing else, spend 40hrs/wk on Amway and spend all the income earned on the way on expenses building Amway (which would be extremely difficult)

That'll be a 40,000€/yr average income, plus at least one free all expenses paid trip a year. That's nearly twice the average UK income, an you could probably stop working then, or maybe drop to 5-10hrs/wk and earn at least 80,000€/yr.

There is ONE diamond in the UK, please supply sources for these "facts".

You appear to be saying that to do this you spend up to five years working for nothing for a forty hour week (all income re-invested in Amway). If I had enough money to work for no income them would I need Amway?

Steve

[icerat]

There is ONE diamond in the UK, please supply sources for these "facts".

There used to be more - extenuating circumstances. Anyway, I said Europe, not just the UK. What "facts" do you want sourcing for? I personally know quite a few people who have qualified diamond (and higher) in less than 5 years.

You appear to be saying that to do this you spend up to five years working for nothing for a forty hour week (all income re-invested in Amway).

I was being absurd. In reality to do that it's probably 20-30hrs/week, you'd be making some money after expenses within the first few months, and after 6-12 months you'd be profiting at least 1,500€/mth, increasing every month.

If I had enough money to work for no income them would I need Amway?

Depends if the money was renewing or running out. Plenty of people start businesses and work fulltime, living off savings or borrowings or a combination.

Not the recommended path for Amway, but it's clear that if you successfully did that, it would be financially worth it.

[NewtonTrino]

Honestly the money that this business generates seems low for the YEARS of effort. Why would I go into Amway and spend 5 years to make a measly amount per year. There are plenty of other types of businesses where you could have made millions in profit after 5 years. I'm simply not impressed by the cited income figures. If you have the kinds of skills that you need to hit diamond in 5 years flat (which is possible but unusual) then there are plenty of other things you could do that would be more rewarding. And that aren't part of a brainwashing cult with a bad reputation that's inherently unethical.

[Skeptic]

Fine. Do some math. Qualify Diamond for the first time anytime in the next 5 years in Europe, you'll get a one-off bonus of 200,000€ on top of all other income.

Chances of becoming a diamond in Amway are, roughly, 1 in 10,000 or so. If you work in McDonald's and do so well you are in the top 0.01% of McDonald's earners, you will get a LOT more than a one-time 200,000 Euro bonus. You'd be making a seven-figure salary.

Advantage: McDonald's.

And there are thousands of business opportunities better than McDonald's.

[NewtonTrino]

Yes but anyone can go diamond if they do the work! All you have to do is trust me and make sure you listen to my CD's and come to my meetings. All for a fee of course, you'll make it back once you hit the bigtime!

[Rasmus]

That'll be a 40,000€/yr average income, plus at least one free all expenses paid trip a year. That's nearly twice the average UK income, and you could probably stop working then, or maybe drop to 5-10hrs/wk and earn at least 80,000€/yr.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=334
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

According to these, the average household income is at nearly 30K GBP or 35K €, a full time employee makes an average of 25K GBP or 30K €.

Where do your numbers come from?

[NewtonTrino]

Honestly I think Amway is generally sold on stronger terms than this. It's not just make a nice living, it's often portrayed as a get wealthy type of business. I don't see where that comes from given the numbers we've seen. Unless of course you count the insane tools profits that are possible in SOME groups.

[Porkchopjim]

Wait, is there a shill for “Big Pharma” here?

If pills derived from squeezed fruit and lawn clippings are, as argued, better than the $16 for 600 pills 'generic synthetic' vitamins...

...and given that Amway has been portrayed as the champion of the underdog...

...and given a certain proponent of Amway is also a big fan of socialized medicine (and family care)...

...wouldn't someone who isn't a snake oil salesman be complaining that the cost of those magic pills are outlandish and: Amway and it's 'business owners' are profiting – nicely on both counts according to the self-appointed spokesman - off the backs of the unhealthy masses? And, why wouldn't the government provide these valuable magic pills to us?

If it weren't for cult thinking, heads would explode. But when you've grown up in it and spent countless hours – probably at least 10,000 by now – desperately trying to defend it...certain inconsistencies can be overlooked for the greater gain.

We know North America has been flat for the last 4-5-6 years...so any newly anointed “Diamonds” in that market are taking the place of other “Diamonds” who are no longer at that qualification. But that doesn't matter – it's the 'fact' that there are new ones that PROVES the business works!

Amway unashamedly puts 'wealthy business owners' enjoying 'financial freedom on the beach' throughout their magazines knowing full well that whatever lifestyle is portrayed is fueled by incredible tool profits sold to their own followers. Amway is sold VERY much stronger than the benign little side business that some try to claim it is.

Dreams and tools are sold to millions covered nicely through a product based pyramid scheme.

[icerat]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=334
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

According to these, the average household income is at nearly 30K GBP or 35K €, a full time employee makes an average of 25K GBP or 30K €.

Where do your numbers come from?

I just looked up average income UK - not household mind you.

It doesn't really matter, take your figures if you like - it's more than the average UK household income.

[NewtonTrino]

Why would you compare what is supposed to be a good business opportunity to average income?

Shouldn't it be entrepreneurs or salespeople that you are looking at? Someone who is a consistently good sales person would make a lot more than "average". Small business owners are amongst the wealthiest portion of society. I would love to see how a lot of dry cleaners, corner stores, restaurants etc. owners compare in income to the average succesful amway salesman.

[icerat]

Honestly the money that this business generates seems low for the YEARS of effort. Why would I go into Amway and spend 5 years to make a measly amount per year. There are plenty of other types of businesses where you could have made millions in profit after 5 years.

Great! Show me one.


Chances of becoming a diamond in Amway are, roughly, 1 in 10,000 or so.

If you believe your odds of success as based on chance, then I'd suggest your chances of becoming a diamond are nil.

If you work in McDonald's and do so well you are in the top 0.01% of McDonald's earners, you will get a LOT more than a one-time 200,000 Euro bonus. You'd be making a seven-figure salary.

Got any stats to back that up? Your stating that 1 in 10,000 McDonald's employees earns more than a million bucks a year?

Advantage: McDonald's.

Nope, because if you're in the top 0.01% of Amway Earners, you'd be making more than that.

And there are thousands of business opportunities better than McDonald's.

Great. What are they? I'm always interested to learn more. Just today I met a couple who started their business in Australia, then moved to South Africa where they built to Emerald, then moved back to Australia for their son to go to Uni, and now live in the UK.

Every month they earn thousands from their south african and australian businesses. They can live whereever they want. They have no jobs, they don't need them.

I'm always willing to learn about business opportunities that can do better. Please share.

Honestly I think Amway is generally sold on stronger terms than this.

You can "think" whatever you like. Despite your instance on omniscience, you have no idea how the majority of people "sell" Amway. Do some "oversell"? Absolutely. Doesn't mean everyone does.

It's not just make a nice living, it's often portrayed as a get wealthy type of business. I don't see where that comes from given the numbers we've seen.

We obviously move in different circles. In my world a yearly income of US$1.5million is "wealthy". That's the average for Founders EDC and above in the US. I've also noticed people seem to ignore all the free Amway trips often shown in videos. Even measily Founders Platinums get them NT, they don't have to pay for them out of their Amway income.

Unless of course you count the insane tools profits that are possible in SOME groups.

Every single time ... and I've done this a lot ... every single time I've challenged a "critic" to name an Amway diamond or above who is displaying a lifestyle that couldn't be achieved on their Amway income alone ... every single time the "critic" has named someone who is way past diamond level in achievement, and has often achieved that level and higher in multiple countries.

[Porkchopjim]

If you believe your odds of success as based on chance, then I'd suggest your chances of becoming a diamond are nil.


If you believe your odds are based on countless hours, thousands spent on useless tools and rallies, and hyperconsuming vitamins and other products to artificially boost your 'business' figures (not to mention set a good example for those below you) - then you'll have just as successful experience with Amway as millions of others have! There being millions of Diamonds, of course.

ETA –

. You apparently haven't read the article you mentioned - The Nutrilite Difference

Almost forgot. Sorry you didn't get a chance to pick out my IP address. I wouldn't expect a second chance if I were you. Nice try again, though.

[Tex2]

Every single time ... and I've done this a lot ... every single time I've challenged a "critic" to name an Amway diamond or above who is displaying a lifestyle that couldn't be achieved on their Amway income alone ... every single time the "critic" has named someone who is way past diamond level in achievement, and has often achieved that level and higher in multiple countries. ---- And you would be LYING for the umpteenth time, because every single time I see and can respond to the above lie, I do. Bruce Anderson was a Diamond, and his lifestyle was FAR above his Amway income. He was in the "Profiles" book, with pictures of a large home on the intercoastal waterway, a motorcoach, cars, airplane, boats, etc., and later admitted he was qualified only a year or two, then fell back to Emerald, and made at least twice as much from tools than Amway during most of his time. You are a LIAR, icerat/insider/ibofb. As most Diamonds, Emeralds, etc., do not go on to Founders level, it is FAR more logical they fell back rather than maintained the level of the pin they wear. Therefore, I expect Bruce's
situation is typical, not unusual.

Now, is it possible for a REAL Diamond to make the money to fund this lifestyle? Probably, but that shouldn't be the question. The REAL question is DO they use Amway profit for their lifestyles? The answer is a resounding NO.

[NewtonTrino]

I just don't understand why people would get involved with all of the information available out there about this "opportunity". Where there's smoke there is fire.

[Tex2]

Newton, your biggest challenge is trying to imagine the Amway business without the tool scam. You mix up the Amway business and the tool scam, and are unable and/or unwilling to consider how it would work without the tool scam.

[Skeptic]

If you believe your odds of success as based on chance, then I'd suggest your chances of becoming a diamond are nil.

It has nothing to do with chance. It has to do with how to spend one's time.

If you are good enough to become a diamond in Amway due to your salesmanship or entrepreneurial skills, you are one of the top 0.01% of the population in that respect.

But if you are that good of a businessman, or can become that good of a businessman -- whether you achieve this by chance, by hard work, by inborn talent, or a combination of all three -- then you would be MUCH better off using your entrepreneurial skills in just about any other business or job.

Why waste your talent, hard work, or luck in Amway for a low six-figure salary and bonus when the same amount of talent, hard work, or luck (or combination of all three) would give you a seven-figure salary outside Amway -- the top 0.01% in the USA make $3.6 million a year?

The same holds true, by the way, for every level of success income in amway vis-a-vis every level of success outside of amway. No matter how good or bad you are as a businessman, you are better off by a factor of 20, at least, if you use your business skills outside Amway instead of wasting them in Amway.

Amway is a sucker's bet.

[icerat]

Almost forgot. Sorry you didn't get a chance to pick out my IP address. I wouldn't expect a second chance if I were you. Nice try again, though.

My first response .... huh? My second response ... it's becoming clear that paranoia is a common thread amongst some of the more obsessive amway critics ....

[icerat]

It has nothing to do with chance. It has to do with how to spend one's time.

If you are good enough to become a diamond in Amway due to your salesmanship or entrepreneurial skills, you are one of the top 0.01% of the population in that respect.

Perhaps, but those skills are learned on the way.

But if you are that good of a businessman, or can become that good of a businessman -- whether you achieve this by chance, by hard work, by inborn talent, or a combination of all three -- then you would be MUCH better off using your entrepreneurial skills in just about any other business or job.

Umm, no, because when you start the journey you don't have them. That's one of the benefits of working with Amway, you learn these skills along the way, with low risk

Why waste your talent, hard work, or luck in Amway for a low six-figure salary and bonus when the same amount of talent, hard work, or luck (or combination of all three) would give you a seven-figure salary outside Amway -- the top 0.01% in the USA make $3.6 million a year?

(1)source please (2) I seriously doubt the top 0.01% make $3.6million from one income source.(3)that percentage includes Amway people.

Anyway, this source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/opinion/08tue4.html?_r=1)says the top 0.01% of US income earners in 2006 earned $10.1 million and over. Globally there are about 4 million renewed IBOs, of which no more than 10% are actually operating it as a business. .01% of that is 40. I know several of the 40 top Amway business owners and they earn significantly more than $10million per year. Some of them regularly earn more than that just from Amway, let alone other investments.

So it would appear that contrary to your claim, being in the top .01% of Amway business owners is more lucrative than "average". Heck, I remember reading stories about the 1974 Miami dolphins, the only team to go through and win the Super Bowl undefeated. Many of them went on to be highly successful businessmen. Yet in the article they were quoted as saying one was more successful and made more money than all the rest. Who was that? Amway Founders Crown Ambassador, Tim Foley.

Any person who has created significant income - and learned the skills along the way - diversifies and creates other income sources. It's no different with Amway. Some years back I recall one of Amway's top leaders saying their families entire lifestyle (mansions, yacht, private jet etc) was today entirely funded through investment accounts. Just recently another acquaintence of mine, another top Amway leader, revealed he owns "way more" than tens of millions of dollars of investment real estate.

Their ability to do that came through their journey, and success, in the Amway business.

The same holds true, by the way, for every level of success income in amway vis-a-vis every level of success outside of amway. No matter how good or bad you are as a businessman, you are better off by a factor of 20, at least, if you use your business skills outside Amway instead of wasting them in Amway.

You have no evidence at all to support that claim, my guess is you're just making it up. I have a number of friends who were highly successful in business - multi-millionaires in fact, who have sold their businesses to focus on Amway. A couple of them stopped building Amway for several year after they reached the Founders Emerald level - they said they already had a better lifestyle there than they did when in traditional business.

I realised a couple of years ago that I'd have been much better off focussing my skills on Amway rather than my other ventures, and have spent the last year or so getting rid of other ventures so I can focus on Amway, and that's what I'm now starting to do again - I just need to spend less time on boards like this :)

Skeptic, you either don't know much about Amway (well, it's clear you don't, so that's a given) or you don't know much about being an entrepreneur, or both.

Now, I agree on one thing, if you are a really good salesman and just interested in money now, then there are absolutely better options than Amway. If you're highly talented in one field, like an NBA class basketball player, then there are better options than Amway. But for most people, or at least those willing to work hard for several years, with little immediate return, I'm yet to see a better option. Feel free to show me one.

[NewtonTrino]

I have a number of friends who were highly successful in business - multi-millionaires in fact, who have sold their businesses to focus on Amway.


I call BS without proof.


Umm, no, because when you start the journey you don't have them. That's one of the benefits of working with Amway, you learn these skills along the way, with low risk


The same thing applies to ANY other business. Start one, learn the ropes, rinse and repeat. I don't know where you get the concept that the risk is so much lower in Amway. If you have no money all you have is your time anyway. Sure most businesses have more upfront costs than Amway but you have to start somewhere unless you are born rich. Work for someone else in the industry of your choice, learn the ropes and save up money, open your own shop and continue to learn. Millions of people do this every year and there are plenty of people making money outside of scamway. Most of them even manage to do it ethically.

The claim is constantly made that amway is the best opportunity. I have seen ZERO substantiation that it's even a good opportunity and plenty of figures that show it's one of the worst ways you could possibly spend your time.



So it would appear that contrary to your claim, being in the top .01% of Amway business owners is more lucrative than "average".


Please substantiate that the top 40 earners in Amway have income of more than $10M without tool scam money. Also this is only the top 40 of the CURRENT renewed IBO's which isn't good math as the turnover is quite high. These are the top out of EVERYONE who has ever become an IBO.

[Skeptic]

I have a number of friends who were highly successful in business - multi-millionaires in fact, who have sold their businesses to focus on Amway.

Riiiiiiiiight.

Sure you do.

[Almo]

I know several of the 40 top Amway business owners and they earn significantly more than $10million per year.

We never said you couldn't make money in Amway if you're at the top of the pyramid. Pyramid schemes are like that.

[Porkchopjim]

For those of you still struggling to give the Amway proponents the benefit of the doubt, and I know it's a struggle:

You may be picking up a pattern. It's consistent.


1. It's never the advocate, per se, who is making the business do what it is purported to do. However, they always seem to personally know others who are just blowing the lid off this thing. In the case of those advocates who are fairly new to the business, that 'other' is almost guaranteed to be benefiting from that advocate's continued participation in the scheme.

2. When asked what special benefits their product, especially dietary supplements, provides above and beyond what a much lower priced product offers, they trot out advertising disguised as science – complete with official looking reports and articles and everything – that offer such dubious conclusions as “this special ingredient may/might/shows promise in elevating/decreasing/enhancing/inhibiting some other substance/process which has previously been shown – by many of the same advertisers (excuse me, 'scientists') – to possibly be linked to (fill in the blank positive or negative). It's pretty much 'dietary mad-libs.'


Not quite a pattern yet, but still interesting: there never seems to be a particularly successful achiever who has reached the exalted position of 'free from financial worry' who isn't continually working the business. This is exclusively under the guise of 'helping others achieve what they have' because it's all about helping people, you know.

[NewtonTrino]

So I spent some time yesterday and re-read "Merchants of Deception" which is the ebook written by Eric Scheibeler. Honestly the book needs a good editing pass but the core points of his amway experience come across clearly. It's not a terribly long read and it's free so it might be of interest to those reading this thread. I'm sure Icerat has all kinds of reasons why nobody should ever read it. Of course it happened to a guy working with Dexter's system so it doesn't count as amway, right Icerat?

[icerat]

I call BS without proof.

And I call BS on your claims without proof. See, both can play that game. :cool:

But you can call BS all your like, it doesn't change reality.

The same thing applies to ANY other business. Start one, learn the ropes, rinse and repeat. I don't know where you get the concept that the risk is so much lower in Amway. If you have no money all you have is your time anyway. Sure most businesses have more upfront costs than Amway but you have to start somewhere unless you are born rich.

Many, probably most, business startups borrow money to get started. If I recall correctly for example, McDonald's franchisees typically get a rather large 7 year loan from McDonald's.

Work for someone else in the industry of your choice, learn the ropes and save up money, open your own shop and continue to learn. Millions of people do this every year and there are plenty of people making money outside of scamway. Most of them even manage to do it ethically.

Millions of people open shops every year? Really?

Most people who start Amway businesses have money - and they don't have to risk that money, or very little of it. It's a pretty ridiculous assertion that since they don't have to risk it, then it doesn't count. :boggled:

The claim is constantly made that amway is the best opportunity. I have seen ZERO substantiation that it's even a good opportunity and plenty of figures that show it's one of the worst ways you could possibly spend your time.

Then why don't you publish the figures here? Nothing you've said even remotely supports that claim, not without using various made up (and false) assumptions.

Please substantiate that the top 40 earners in Amway have income of more than $10M without tool scam money. Also this is only the top 40 of the CURRENT renewed IBO's which isn't good math as the turnover is quite high. These are the top out of EVERYONE who has ever become an IBO.

Skeptic was the one who selected current McDonald's employees. Not "all" employees. In any case, global Amway renewal rate is something like 62% and those that are treating it like a business virtually all renew - so I *AM* looking at a sample that approaches everyone who actually operated an Amway *business*. Unlike skeptic, whose fantasy McDonald's employee income statistics undoubtedly ignored all past employees.

You of course want to include everyone, as if "wanting" to make money is good enough, and Amway's a scam because only the people who work hard earn money. :rolleyes:

Secondly, I never said the earn 10million "without tool money". It's more than 10 million from all sorts of businesses and investments. But for arguments sake we could take someone like Jim Dornan. He's Founders Crown Ambassador in the United States (20+ qualifying legs) and Executive Diamond (EDC) and higher in a dozen other countries. As per the early stat, EDC average income some years back was $1.5million. An FCA has a business more than twice the size, and he has that income from a dozen other places as well. Do the math. Or try Tim Foley whom I mentioned earlier. He's FCA in the US, and at least Triple Diamond in South America. Or Foo Howe Kean - Crown Ambassador in three markets, Double Diamond in another, and lord knows what else in other countries.

[icerat]

So I spent some time yesterday and re-read "Merchants of Deception" which is the ebook written by Eric Scheibeler. Honestly the book needs a good editing pass but the core points of his amway experience come across clearly. It's not a terribly long read and it's free so it might be of interest to those reading this thread. I'm sure Icerat has all kinds of reasons why nobody should ever read it. Of course it happened to a guy working with Dexter's system so it doesn't count as amway, right Icerat?

I have no problem with people reading that - as long as they realise one thing - the book is almost entirely about his experience with his upline - an upline that has since been turfed out of Amway. The fact Scheibler had to apologise to Amway for making false statements to the press (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/eric-scheibeler-a-merchant-of-deception/), and has some pretty clear outright lies in the book is also enlightening. Still, if I'd had his experience I wouldn't think very highly of the Amway business either.

Again though, for those who value rationality, let's look at some facts -


Every lawsuit by an IBO against Amway talking about experiences like Scheibler's originated from one Amway group and it's offshoots
Every significant online critic had their experience with the one Amway group and it's offshoots.
Every single anti-Amway book has been written by someone who had their experience with the one Amway group and it's offshoots.
More than 95% of online "complaints" about Amway, where they identify the group they were with - yup, had their experience with the one Amway group and it's offshoots
This group has never been a majority of Amway

A rational person must ask - if everyone in Amway is acting like these people describe, why does the majority of Amway (which exists outside this group and it's offshoots) generate pretty much nothing in the way of criticism?

I must add though, in my opinion those groups that did generate complaints have considerably cleaned up their acts in recent years - nearly all online Amway critics had their experience nearly a decade or more ago. There's been remarkably few new complaints despite the internet becoming more ubiquitious. From my monitoring, one group is still generating complaints about "stalking people" in book stores. and another has generated several complaints (primarily from me!) with regards pushing religious and political views at seminars, in disregard of Amway accreditation rules.

[icerat]

We never said you couldn't make money in Amway if you're at the top of the pyramid. Pyramid schemes are like that.

Please do tell - in which endeavour is it that the people that are the least successful earn the most?

[oggiesnr]

But for arguments sake we could take someone like Jim Dornan. He's Founders Crown Ambassador in the United States (20+ qualifying legs) and Executive Diamond (EDC) and higher in a dozen other countries. As per the early stat, EDC average income some years back was $1.5million. An FCA has a business more than twice the size, and he has that income from a dozen other places as well. Do the math. Or try Tim Foley whom I mentioned earlier. He's FCA in the US, and at least Triple Diamond in South America. Or Foo Howe Kean - Crown Ambassador in three markets, Double Diamond in another, and lord knows what else in other countries.

In other words they're at the top (or near top) of lots of tall pyramids, an opportunity that no longer exists in most countries. The Amway ad isn't selling to these guys, it's selling their success to people who can't hope to emulate it because all the big pyramid points are taken.

Steve

Steve

[Almo]

Please do tell - in which endeavour is it that the people that are the least successful earn the most?

Jobs that are heavily subsidized by some entity not based on performance.

Businesses where a powerful union has gone overboard protecting useless workers.

Some business where a monopolistic advantage has made them soft.

Just answering the question at face value. Not quite sure what you're getting at.

[icerat]

In other words they're at the top (or near top) of lots of tall pyramids, an opportunity that no longer exists in most countries. The Amway ad isn't selling to these guys, it's selling their success to people who can't hope to emulate it because all the big pyramid points are taken.

You display more and more ignorance with every post, Steve. Just this past few months two new "Crowns" have been recognized in the US (http://www.amwaywiki.com/Achieve), Amway's oldest market. Crown is only a step away from Crown Ambassador, and I guarantee you both of those "Crowns" will be recognized at that level with the next 24 months.

Indeed, my tracking of various internet statistics indicates business in the US is going VERY well for Amway. I hear similar things from folk on the ground there.

There's still plenty of room for people to grow large businesses, even in a 50yr old market.

[icerat]

Just answering the question at face value. Not quite sure what you're getting at.

My point is that of course the people who are most successful with Amway who make the most money. It's a bit of a bizarre "criticism" to point out that the people in Amway who make the most are the ones who have created the biggest businesses - ie created the most sales volume.

Why do you have a problem with that?

[Almo]

My point is that of course the people who are most successful with Amway who make the most money. It's a bit of a bizarre "criticism" to point out that the people in Amway who make the most are the ones who have created the biggest businesses - ie created the most sales volume.

Why do you have a problem with that?

The same reason I have a problem with Benie Madoff. MLM is fundamentally flawed.

There's still plenty of room for people to grow large businesses, even in a 50yr old market.

One born every minute, I guess.

[icerat]

The same reason I have a problem with Benie Madoff. MLM is fundamentally flawed.

What's fundamentally flawed about "buy in volume, get a discount, sell at a markup"?

[NewtonTrino]

Nothing. Unfortunately that's a gross simplification.

[NewtonTrino]

Please do tell - in which endeavour is it that the people that are the least successful earn the most?

Pretty much any opportunity is better than the one where those at the bottom get fleeced and make worse than nothing.

[icerat]

Nothing. Unfortunately that's a gross simplification.

It's a 100% accurate description of the multi-level part of Amway's compensation plan, and most others I've look at.

Pretty much any opportunity is better than the one where those at the bottom get fleeced and make worse than nothing.

You know what you know and no part of reality is going to change that, I get it. Did you see yet another Amway product got named "best buy"? This time it was eSpring in Consumer Digest. Those poor fleeced consumers .... ;)

[NewtonTrino]

It is 100% accurate. It's also a simplification to the point of uselessness.

[icerat]

It is 100% accurate. It's also a simplification to the point of uselessness.

Ok, how about this -

buy in volume, get a discount, sell at a markup, pay a small yearly fee to have someone else handle all the payments and other logistics.

[oggiesnr]

Ok, how about this -

buy in volume, get a discount, sell at a markup, pay a small yearly fee to have someone else handle all the payments and other logistics.

TANSTAAFL

Steve

[icerat]

TANSTAAFL

Steve

Nope, and nowhere did I suggest there was. Indeed, as I keep asking - why do some of the people here have such a problem with the idea that the people who don't work don't make any money?

somehow I doubt I'm chatting to a group of hard core communists, but you never know!

[Almo]

Nope, and nowhere did I suggest there was [a free lunch].

Yup, Icerat never said there was a free lunch. The main argument is what the true cost of the lunch is. :)

Indeed, as I keep asking - why do some of the people here have such a problem with the idea that the people who don't work don't make any money?

No problem with that. The issue is that there are better uses of time than Amway if you look at profit/hour, and that the BEST way to make money in Amway is to get in early, and sit at the top of the pyramid scraping off the cream from the people at the bottom who are the ones least able to afford to pay your salary.

[icerat]

the BEST way to make money in Amway is to get in early, and sit at the top of the pyramid scraping off the cream from the people at the bottom who are the ones least able to afford to pay your salary.

That's an utterly nonsensical statement devoid of any connection to the reality of the Amway business model, let alone the reality of Amway history.

In trying to interpret it though, you seem to be criticising Amway because it's the people who work hard over time and generate sales that make money, rather than people who have either (a) just joined and generated no sales volume or (b) a simply customers.

Could you provide me with any examples of an industry where the customers or people who have just started a business make more money than those who have been in business for a long time and generated a large number of sales?

[Almo]

Could you provide me with any examples of an industry where the customers or people who have just started a business make more money than those who have been in business for a long time and generated a large number of sales?

I can provide MANY examples where the people who start are paid real money for the first hour they work. But that's so obvious, I won't bother.

Also, starting your own business (where you actually go negative when you start) is better because you're not throwing all this money to your upline.

MLM stinks.

[oggiesnr]

I would be fascinated to see the breakdown of how these Ambassadors etc make their money. How much of it comes from tools, how much from their downline and how much from their actual sales. Anyone know of any figures?

Steve

[NewtonTrino]

The main argument is what the true cost of the lunch is.


Exactly! Of course you can retail product or sponsor people and make a few bucks. That has never been the issue. The issue is whether or not you would be better to spend your time doing something else.

This of course completely ignores the tools or cult angle which make amway not worth touching by themselves. Why anyone would want to be involved with something so tainted boggles my mind.

[icerat]

I can provide MANY examples where the people who start are paid real money for the first hour they work. But that's so obvious, I won't bother.

Uhuh. So these people decided to start a business, and where profitable within an hour of the decision?

I don't believe it.

Also, starting your own business (where you actually go negative when you start) is better because you're not throwing all this money to your upline.

Yeah, it's better to throw money at your upline suppliers than it is at your ... upline suppliers.

That makes sense. :rolleyes:

MLM stinks.

You apparently are suffering psychosomatic symptoms. Perhaps you should see a doctor?

[icerat]

I would be fascinated to see the breakdown of how these Ambassadors etc make their money. How much of it comes from tools, how much from their downline and how much from their actual sales. Anyone know of any figures?

As I stated numerous times, the figures I gave were Amway income alone. Not speaking fees. Not BSM income. Not investments. Not other businesses. Not consulting. Amway income alone.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Yeah, it's better to throw money at your upline suppliers than it is at your ... upline suppliers.

In MLM, your upline aren't your suppliers, they're middlemen who are skimming commissions.

In non-MLM franchise business you don't generally
1. Purchase finished product paying huge commissions to fellow franchise owners.
2. Expect your end customers to also be franchise owners who you can collect commissions from.

[Porkchopjim]

The fact Scheibler had to apologise to Amway for making false statements to the press,...

Well – that's not a real 'fact' is is? Could we possibly get a SINGLE TRUTH OUT OF YOU?

Scheibler apologized for things said on his behalf. He CLARIFIED that he did not say them directly, and if he was indicated as having SAID those things, that was not intented.



Every lawsuit by an IBO against Amway talking about experiences like Scheibler's originated from one Amway group and it's offshoots

That One Amway group is the model for all the others. Selling dubious amounts of 'business support tools' and other useless junk to downline is the proven model for ALL these stupid 'systems.' Seems your panties only get bunched when that material includes politics and religion.

Not to mention, those 'groups' that STILL act like morons have achieved the same accreditation as 'valuable training systems' as your beloved branch of the cult.

A rational person must ask - if everyone in Amway is acting like these people describe, why does the majority of Amway (which exists outside this group and it's offshoots) generate pretty much nothing in the way of criticism?

A rational person might also question why other cults still exist and recruit and survive. Odd argument: Amway exists so it can't be bad.


This sure is easier on your own site, isn't it, where everyone already belongs to the cult?

But, keep up the good work, you've ALMOST got them convinced here!:rolleyes:

[CynicalSkeptic]

The MLM mindset.
I am trying to build a future and if it takes sometime to do so than that is fine,so out here in the real world a traditional buisness would cost a bundle to get started and off the ground.This is a real buisness to me and I have a product to move by convencing people to take a chance on an oppertunity that I believe exists for payments of $XXX.00 amonth.(emphasis mine, all spelling errors are original. I also edited out the monthly price).
disclaimer: This person is not talking about Amway, he's talking about another MLM, but in my mind, all MLMs are the same. I'm sure Tex or icerat will disagree, but I see the "MLM business opportunity" as "convince other people to convince yet other people to convince more people that this is a good business". If you can do that, yes you can make money, but that's exactly what a pyramid scam does. The products are just a front to make it legal.

[Tex2]

I'm still waiting for icerat/insider/ibofb and Newton to respond to the last posts I directed towards them. How about the rest of you holding their feet to the fire?

[Almo]

Uhuh. So these people decided to start a business, and where profitable within an hour of the decision?

I don't believe it.

Just get a job at McDonald's. You'll get a check in about two weeks. I'm not eliminating just getting a job from the range of opportunities people have to earn money.

[Tex2]

Almo, as usual you are mixing apples and oranges. There's a HUGE difference between an entry level job and starting a business. If you don't know any better, I suggest you leave this thread and concentrate on coloring, taking naps in the afternoon, etc. LOL

[Skeptic]

Almo, as usual you are mixing apples and oranges. There's a HUGE difference between an entry level job and starting a business.

Joining Amway is "starting a business" in the same sense that buying lottery tickets is "investing".

For starters, real business owners don't spend 90% of their time recruiting their own competition.

[icerat]

In MLM, your upline aren't your suppliers, they're middlemen who are skimming commissions.

You really know nothing at all about MLM do you? Until not so many years ago, everyone but "directs" bought their products off their upline. Some still do.

No differen

In non-MLM franchise business you don't generally
1. Purchase finished product paying huge commissions to fellow franchise owners.

What the heck does this crime against the english language mean?

2. Expect your end customers to also be franchise owners who you can collect commissions from.

Don't in Amway either. In our "system" for example we have an early recognition called "leader's club". For that you're expected to have introduced 5 people to the network, 4 of whom it's expected will be just customers, not operating a business, plus an additional 10 retail clients. That's 1 "franchise owner", a combined wholesale and retail customer, and 14 retail customers.

So much for expecting "end customers" to also be franchise owners.

[icerat]

Joining Amway is "starting a business" in the same sense that buying lottery tickets is "investing".

The way you seem to think it works, yeah. Fortunately it doesn't work that way. Not that you care much about reality.

For starters, real business owners don't spend 90% of their time recruiting their own competition.

Do you actually read the posts? This has already been addressed and I've given you unequivocal examples of "real business owners" who "recruit their own competition".

I could give them again, but why bother? Talk about brainwashed parrot speak. You just keep spouting out the same old mindless drivel.

[icerat]

The MLM mindset.
(emphasis mine, all spelling errors are original. I also edited out the monthly price).
disclaimer: This person is not talking about Amway, he's talking about another MLM, but in my mind, all MLMs are the same.

A bit of a huge leap of faith don't you think? Just believing, contrary to actual evidence, that thousands of different businesses are all "the same".

People don't even operate within Amway "the same".

It amazes me how for some topics people who supposedly value rationality just shut down their cerebral cortex and let the amygdala run amuck.

I'm sure Tex or icerat will disagree, but I see the "MLM business opportunity" as "convince other people to convince yet other people to convince more people that this is a good business".

MLM is a style of compensation plan, not a business opportunity.

If you can do that, yes you can make money, but that's exactly what a pyramid scam does.

Yup, sure is. And that's why a bunch of folk got kicked out of Amway a couple of years ago. They were doing something like that, breaking various of Amway's rules along the way, and Amway considered it verged on making that groups operations a pyramid.

By definition, if you're doing something that breaks Amway's rules, then you're not running an Amway business, you're doing something else.

BTW, as I've said before, one of the problems legitimate MLM firms have is that all the scams call themselves MLM, such that there may actually be more scams calling themselves MLM than there is actual real MLMs.

So quite frankly it's no wonder folk like yourself get confused. What the solution to that is, I don't know.

[Tex2]

Joining Amway is "starting a business" in the same sense that buying lottery tickets is "investing". ---- Except Almo compared Amway to working at McDonalds. Your "example" is just as weak.

For starters, real business owners don't spend 90% of their time recruiting their own competition.Neither do IBOs. Your "recruits" add to your volume, they are NOT in competition. Clueless.

[Tex2]

icerat/insider/ibofb, nice to see you're posting again. Now answer the Bruce Anderson example response to your "nobody has ever given a single example...blah blah blah."

[NewtonTrino]

I wonder how many seasons tickets are going to be sold to amwayers for the orland magic.

[Tex2]

I wonder how long it will take for you to respond to the issue I raised regarding not being able and/or willing to discuss the Amway business without a tool scam. Will it be before or after ibofb/icerat/insider responds to the Bruce Anderson example mentioned above?

[Tex2]

Remember, a "no response" is simply an admission of being wrong.

[Porkchopjim]

Your "recruits" add to your volume, they are NOT in competition. Clueless.


Funny - that's not how Amway saw it when they were found guilty of price fixing...in order to prevent distributors from undercutting each other and 'keeping a level playing field.'

Now, in Tex's business (which is truly representative of Amway operations), downline are NOT competition because there is no market outside of those participating in the scam for the products. The only way to increase volume, other than buying it yourself, is to recruit others to buy from themselves. Through this endless chain - the newbies pay the bonus money for the older members, and the newbies have no chance of gaining any profit unless they can recruit someone else.

If it were a REAL business, then indeed downline recruits would be competition. After 16 years of valuable Amway training, Tex can not see that. Not to mention that he's been an 'internet business owner' for just one month shy of 10 years...so expecting him to have mastered the 'quote button' is a bit much.

34% of the price a distributor pays to Amway for products goes to pay bonuses. 34% does not make a lot of products competitive. Lack of competitive products means the distributors have to buy them themselves.

Icerat will defend this model because, for some reason, it doesn't matter if the new guy is getting screwed. As long as the new guy can recruit at least 1 other member, the new guy is now a 'wholesaler' unconcerned where the products go or where the profit comes from. Real 'wholesalers' actually have that concern.

So, no - Amway does NOT operate like other businesses not matter how hard he tries to convince himself it does.

[NewtonTrino]

Yeah but good luck convincing cultists to see the problem. Ultimately thisbthread is about saving people before they get suckered. You have been warned people! Don't let yourself end up like them.

[Tex2]

Funny - that's not how Amway saw it when they were found guilty of price fixing...in order to prevent distributors from undercutting each other and 'keeping a level playing field.' ---- I'm not talking about 30 years ago, I'm talking about 2009. Get a clue. LOL

Now, in Tex's business (which is truly representative of Amway operations), downline are NOT competition because there is no market outside of those participating in the scam for the products. The only way to increase volume, other than buying it yourself, is to recruit others to buy from themselves. Through this endless chain - the newbies pay the bonus money for the older members, and the newbies have no chance of gaining any profit unless they can recruit someone else. ---- Please don't tell that to my customers. LOL

If it were a REAL business, then indeed downline recruits would be competition. After 16 years of valuable Amway training, Tex can not see that. Not to mention that he's been an 'internet business owner' for just one month shy of 10 years...so expecting him to have mastered the 'quote button' is a bit much. ---- Amway is a "real business", just not a conventional business, because it's an MLM business. LOL

34% of the price a distributor pays to Amway for products goes to pay bonuses. 34% does not make a lot of products competitive. Lack of competitive products means the distributors have to buy them themselves. ---- There are several products I posted on qblog a while back that are competitively priced, and that was BEFORE the recent price reductions. Again, please don't tell my customers only IBOs buy products. LOL

Icerat will defend this model because, for some reason, it doesn't matter if the new guy is getting screwed. As long as the new guy can recruit at least 1 other member, the new guy is now a 'wholesaler' unconcerned where the products go or where the profit comes from. Real 'wholesalers' actually have that concern. ---- The new guy gets screwed by the tool scam, not by Amway. Every IBO, new or old, should be concerned about where the products go and where the profit comes from. I know I do. LOL
So, no - Amway does NOT operate like other businesses not matter how hard he tries to convince himself it does. ---- Amway has similarities and differences with other businesses, just like a franchise has similarities and differences with a hardware store. LOL

[Tex2]

Yeah but good luck convincing cultists to see the problem. Ultimately thisbthread is about saving people before they get suckered. You have been warned people! Don't let yourself end up like them. If you think you're going to "save" many people on this little-known forum, you're clueless.

[Bob Klase]

If you think you're going to "save" many people on this little-known forum, you're clueless.

And you're spending hours and hours on this 'little-known' forum because....

[Skeptic]

Neither do IBOs. Your "recruits" add to your volume, they are NOT in competition.

Suppose that you run a McDonald's and convince a customer to open another McDonald's next door. Sure, you might get a commission -- PART of the profit -- from the customers he gets if he does just that, but why get a commission when you can get the entire profit by them eating at YOUR place instead?

I can understand this if the restaurants are apart -- say in different areas of town -- or if you are already working at full capacity and cannot accommodate more people, so you don't compete for the same customers.

But with Amway, you keep recruiting your friends and neighbors and co-workers, people who would be competing with you for the same potential clients, despite the fact that you could really use the extra clientele.

Oh wait, this is Amway. There ARE no real clients.

Never mind.

[icerat]

Funny - that's not how Amway saw it when they were found guilty of price fixing...in order to prevent distributors from undercutting each other and 'keeping a level playing field.'

crossline distributors are competitors. You do not recruit crossline distributors.

If it were a REAL business, then indeed downline recruits would be competition.

So you believe 7-11 stores are competition for Coca-Cola? They both compete in the retail space to sell Coke, and Coca-Cola inc makes more money per can if they sell direct to the consumer

Why is Coca-Cola so stupid that they sell to competitors? :eek:

[icerat]

This "you're recruiting competitors" thing is one of the dumbest most ignorant bits of rubbish I've seen out of "critics" for a long time. When they have to resort to BS like that it really goes to show what little they actually have to say.

[CynicalSkeptic]

This "you're recruiting competitors" thing is one of the dumbest most ignorant bits of rubbish I've seen out of "critics" for a long time. When they have to resort to BS like that it really goes to show what little they actually have to say.

If you're not actually retailing the product (or if you make more on commissions to another distributor then you do on the diff. between retail and wholesale) then you're correct.

Sorry, us skeptics don't understand a business model where instead of having end consumers, you rely on an infinite exponential increase in "distributors" who only buy products for themselves.

[Tex2]

Suppose that you run a McDonald's and convince a customer to open another McDonald's next door. Sure, you might get a commission -- PART of the profit -- from the customers he gets if he does just that, but why get a commission when you can get the entire profit by them eating at YOUR place instead? >>>> Because you have offered a poor analogy. The new IBO knows lots of people I don't know, and they may live in a different part of the city, county, state, nation, or world. You really ARE clueless, aren't you?

I can understand this if the restaurants are apart -- say in different areas of town -- or if you are already working at full capacity and cannot accommodate more people, so you don't compete for the same customers. >>>> Well, at least there is SOME hope for you. LOL

But with Amway, you keep recruiting your friends and neighbors and co-workers, people who would be competing with you for the same potential clients, despite the fact that you could really use the extra clientele. >>>> See above, the first response. Correction: There is very little hope for you. LOL

Oh wait, this is Amway. There ARE no real clients. >>>> Please don't tell my customers that! LOL

Never mind.Don't worry, I'm not paying much attention to your garbage.

[Tex2]

This "nobody has ever given me a single example of an IBO's lifestyle that didn't come from Amway profit, and not tool profit" thing is one of the dumbest most ignorant bits of rubbish I've seen out of "ibofb" for a long time. When he has to resort to BS like that it really goes to show what little he actually has to say.

[Tex2]

If you're not actually retailing the product (or if you make more on commissions to another distributor then you do on the diff. between retail and wholesale) then you're correct. >>>> What if you make less, but you don't have to spend as much time, money, and energy for the extra money?

Sorry, us skeptics don't understand a business model where instead of having end consumers, you rely on an infinite exponential increase in "distributors" who only buy products for themselves.You skeptics don't understand much more than end customers, I don't think you understand your own "end." Please don't tell my customers I don't have customers. LOL

[Bob Klase]

I enjoy exposing ignorance.

You should have someone explain the difference between 'exposing' and 'demonstrating'. You have them confused.

[NewtonTrino]

So if crossline is your competition what is your upline?

[Tex2]

You should have someone explain the difference between 'exposing' and 'demonstrating'. You have them confused.Another great example, thanks Bob! You come to a forum with NO facts, NO knowledge, NO logic, yet you continue to "demonstrate" diarrhea of the fingers. AMAZING!!! Class dismissed. LOL

[NewtonTrino]

I'll be looking forward to updates on how Icerat's business in the UK goes after he gets started. I hope he'll blog monthly income/expenses/profits.

[Tex2]

So if crossline is your competition what is your upline?If they do it right, they take any names they have in common with you and allow you and/or help you to approach those individuals. How long did you say you have been around the Amway business? This is VERY basic stuff.

[Tex2]

I'll be looking forward to updates on how Icerat's business in the UK goes after he gets started. I hope he'll blog monthly income/expenses/profits.If he didn't do it for his Australian or Swedish business, why do you think he'll do it from the UK? You STILL can't imagine the Amway business without the tool scam, can you? That's okay, because ibofb will have to LIVE it. LOL

[NewtonTrino]

If they do it right, they take any names they have in common with you and allow you and/or help you to approach those individuals. How long did you say you have been around the Amway business? This is VERY basic stuff.

You're completely missing my point. Icerat said that crossline was your competition. I want to know why your upline isn't your competition as well. In fact that are worse than that because you pay them a commission for all volume you move. If you sourced your products directly from the manufacturer that would be money in your pocket.

But I'm sure there will be all kinds of convoluted reasons why they are good. Maybe it's all that great training that they give you for free... er I mean charge you outrageous sums to brainwash you.

Anyone else out there seeing this brainwashing thing?

[Skeptic]

"Downline" are not competitors in Amway for the same reason hamburgers are not competitors to McDonalds.

If Amway's product was really its vitamins and soap products, then, of course, the downline would be competition. But Amway's real product, or resource, rather, ARE the downline people themselves: the brainwashed idiots who buy Amway products (practically nobody else does).

Naturally, in such a situation, having a large downline is the goal.

[Skeptic]

I didn't miss the point at all. As I said above, if your upline is doing the right thing, the potential IBOs your crossline will approach has very little overlap with the potential IBOs you know.

Oh, nonsense. All "serious" Amway people try to recruit anybody they know or can get to know, regardless of how close or far away they are from you.

[Skeptic]

Because you have offered a poor analogy. The new IBO knows lots of people I don't know,

So does the guy who buys an hamburger from me. So I should get everybody who comes to buy a burger to open a new restaurant selling burgers as well, right?

[Tex2]

"Downline" are not competitors in Amway for the same reason hamburgers are not competitors to McDonalds. >>>> You don't have a clue how MLM works, do you? LOL

If Amway's product was really its vitamins and soap products, then, of course, the downline would be competition. >>>> Competition to who?

But Amway's real product, or resource, rather, ARE the downline people themselves: the brainwashed idiots who buy Amway products (practically nobody else does). >>>> Please don't tell my customers that! LOL

Naturally, in such a situation, having a large downline is the goal.Naturally, in such a situation, having common sense is the goal, but it's a LONG way off for you! LOL

[Tex2]

Oh, nonsense. All "serious" Amway people try to recruit anybody they know or can get to know, regardless of how close or far away they are from you.Really? Too bad you don't have a clue what you're talking about, but thanks for the new lesson for my IBOs. LOL

[Tex2]

So does the guy who buys an hamburger from me. So I should get everybody who comes to buy a burger to open a new restaurant selling burgers as well, right?No, you should allow them to buy the hamburger. If they want to open a new restaurant, that's okay as well. At least you're consistent. Consistently WRONG. Class dismissed! LOL

[icerat]

If you're not actually retailing the product (or if you make more on commissions to another distributor then you do on the diff. between retail and wholesale) then you're correct.

So you do believe Coca-Cola are idiots for selling coke to their competitors, 7-11?

Sorry, us skeptics don't understand a business model where instead of having end consumers, you rely on an infinite exponential increase in "distributors" who only buy products for themselves.

More nonsensical rubbish. You "don't understand a business model where instead of having end consumers, you rely on ... end consumers"[/quote]

Ápart from which, you just continue to completely ignore the evidence supplied that we have many non-distributor consumers. Tex has customers. I have customers. I provided a link to a forum where there were a bunch of Amway folk talking ... about their customers.

So you're not only wilfully choosing to ignore evidence, your also making illogical statements like the above. In my world a skeptic is someone who is rational. On this issue at least, you clearly are not.

[icerat]

So if crossline is your competition what is your upline?

Upline are wholesale suppliers. They are competitors in the retail space, but have an incentive to help you grow and be profitable as it increases their wholesale business.

The whole idea is to move from being a small volume retailer, with high per unit markup, to a large volume wholesaler, with smaller per unit markups but greater profitability. The larger volumes also means greater volume discounts, which means larger markup on personal retail.

[Tex2]

Upline are wholesale suppliers. They are competitors in the retail space, but have an incentive to help you grow and be profitable as it increases their wholesale business. >>>> NO. Amway is the supplier. Do you think we still do product pickup? Upline gets part of the monetary reward (so do YOU when you become an upline, think about it, it's a good deal) for the education, training, and motivation they provide, but they don't have the time to personally service all the IBOs and customers their downline services, let alone having an opportunity to approach those IBOs and customers that you know but they don't know. You are lost, hopelessly lost, in your false logic. But it makes for good training for my IBOs, so thanks for putting your ignorance in writing! LOL

The whole idea is to move from being a small volume retailer, with high per unit markup, to a large volume wholesaler, with smaller per unit markups but greater profitability. The larger volumes also means greater volume discounts, which means larger markup on personal retail.Which "per unit markups" are you talking about? The units you personally consume and sell to customers, or those your downline consumes and sells to their customers? Or both? Are you assuming a 6-4-2 type organizational scenario, or the scenario where you are already at a much higher level than the person you sponsor? It makes a difference.

STILL no comment on the Bruce Anderson example? He is very typical, so be careful with your answer.

[CynicalSkeptic]

So you do believe Coca-Cola are idiots for selling coke to their competitors, 7-11?

No, and Amway corporate are not idiots for selling Amway products to IBOs.

[Tex2]

No, and Amway corporate are not idiots for selling Amway products to IBOs.I'm glad we all agree on something! LOL

[NewtonTrino]

Upline are wholesale suppliers. They are competitors in the retail space, but have an incentive to help you grow and be profitable as it increases their wholesale business.

The whole idea is to move from being a small volume retailer, with high per unit markup, to a large volume wholesaler, with smaller per unit markups but greater profitability. The larger volumes also means greater volume discounts, which means larger markup on personal retail.

That might be the goal but that doesn't mean it's actually a good idea.

real answer: your upline is your owner and you are their bitch.

YOU ARE THE PRODUCT in the same way that users of Gmail are the product and the adversiters are the customers. In Amway the downline is the product to be bled until they are dry.

There is no argument against this because almost nobody makes money in this scam (including yourself Icerat). Keep dreaming though!

[Almo]

YOU ARE THE PRODUCT in the same way that users of Gmail are the product and the adversiters are the customers.

That's a pretty good point. Hadn't thought of it that way with GMail.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Ápart from which, you just continue to completely ignore the evidence supplied that we have many non-distributor consumers. Tex has customers. I have customers.

How many?

How much do you make on average per month from your non-distributor customers?

How much did you make for your last fiscal year from your non-distributor customers?

[NewtonTrino]

He's lying. He clearly said that he gave his business to his wife, so how could he have customers? Which is it Icerat? Or you a current IBO or not?

[Skeptic]

Ápart from which, you just continue to completely ignore the evidence supplied that we have many non-distributor consumers. Tex has customers. I have customers.

How many non-Amway customers do you have -- and not counting friends and family?

2?

7?

15?

How much profit did you make from them last year?

[icerat]

wow, you guys really don't bother reading what people write do you?

(1) I gave my original business, which was earning some useful $$$$ to my former wife, but I became her sponsor. If you know anything about the model (which excludes most of you), that means I don't make money from it

(2) I have since started and stopped and started and stopped other Amway businesses several times in other countries. I realised that was a pointless approach and stopped completely several years ago so I could clear out the problems causing the "stops". So unless asked by a downline, I haven't done anything towards building that business. I'm certainly not "running a business" by any reasonable definition of the term. Despite that, you still end up with customers, because they know you can get them the products, and contrary to your ignorant claims, people like them. Early on this thread I grabbed the receipt and counted them up and I'd had nearly 20 customers the past 6 months, most were repeat orders, and I've picked up a few since then. These are full-retail price customers. None are family. Some are friends, obviously. I've no idea what the total profit is, nothing significant obviously, but who cares? If I can pick up 20 customers without trying, clearly others can too. I already gave numerous such examples earlier.

But you know what you believe and don't really care about facts, so I'm sure you'll just ignore them again.

[Darth Rotor]

Here is a thought that needs addressing People who make money on Spamway only can make money by duping people
Duping?

It is fair to say that the few Amway products I have bought are not cheap. I had a bottle of LOC that lasted me quite a while. I have used SA-8 laundry detergent, and it's good stuff on a per use basis. (You do have to pay attention, however, on how much to use. Read the freakin' directions.)

I don't bother finding the local Amway rep any more, have not for years, since my wife and I still clip coupons for simple stuff like that.

But about the whole sales deal? People who sell you a Cadillac, rather than a Volkswagen, only make money by duping you. People who sell you a Gucci handbag can only make money by duping you.

DR

[Tex2]

That might be the goal but that doesn't mean it's actually a good idea.

real answer: your upline is your owner and you are their bitch.

YOU ARE THE PRODUCT in the same way that users of Gmail are the product and the adversiters are the customers. In Amway the downline is the product to be bled until they are dry.

There is no argument against this because almost nobody makes money in this scam (including yourself Icerat). Keep dreaming though!The problem is, as usual, icerat/insider/ibofb "conveniently forgets" the tool scam is where most of the profit is made by the upline and all of the Amway profit, and then some, is turned over to the LCKs. He just had a conversation on his site (http://www.amwaytalk.com/general-f2/meeting-costs-t857-50.html?sid=6b3d3bc8d0e750a8de6e23b322dda22a) where Wearyeyed, a hopelessly clueless individual, ties himself up in logical knots.

[Tex2]

How many?

How much do you make on average per month from your non-distributor customers?

How much did you make for your last fiscal year from your non-distributor customers?Why do you keep asking these questions? We know you wouldn't believe us if we told you, that's why we don't tell you. GO HOME. LOL

[Tex2]

Here is a thought that needs addressing
Duping?

It is fair to say that the few Amway products I have bought are not cheap. I had a bottle of LOC that lasted me quite a while. I have used SA-8 laundry detergent, and it's good stuff on a per use basis. (You do have to pay attention, however, on how much to use. Read the freakin' directions.)

I don't bother finding the local Amway rep any more, have not for years, since my wife and I still clip coupons for simple stuff like that.

But about the whole sales deal? People who sell you a Cadillac, rather than a Volkswagen, only make money by duping you. People who sell you a Gucci handbag can only make money by duping you.

DRIf your interest is ONLY in buying products, you have a reasonable position. Were you kidding or serious about the Caddie/Gucci examples?

[Tex2]

he's lying. He clearly said that he gave his business to his wife, so how could he have customers? Which is it icerat? Or you a current ibo or not?you are clueless!!! Lol

[Tex2]

How many non-Amway customers do you have -- and not counting friends and family?

2?

7?

15?

How much profit did you make from them last year?See answer to CynicalSkeptic. You guys are continuing to do a GREAT job of providing information for IBO training. LOL

[CynicalSkeptic]

Why do you keep asking these questions? We know you wouldn't believe us if we told you, that's why we don't tell you. GO HOME. LOL

*I refuse to answer your question because it would prove your point, so I feebly attempt to turn it around on you.*

[CynicalSkeptic]

See answer to CynicalSkeptic. You guys are continuing to do a GREAT job of providing information for IBO training. LOL

Here's the training young Padawan. You will get many tough questions, so divert, refuse to answer, and change the subject. Never tell your prospects the truth, because most will see what a lousy business scam this is and run away.

[Tex2]

*I refuse to answer your question because it would prove your point, so I feebly attempt to turn it around on you.*You don't have a point. LOL

[Tex2]

Here's the training young Padawan. You will get many tough questions, so divert, refuse to answer, and change the subject. Never tell your prospects the truth, because most will see what a lousy business scam this is and run away.You couldn't recognize training if you were on the tracks heading 60 mph in your direction. I tell the prospects the truth, YOU are not a prospect, you are a cynical skeptic! LOL

[Porkchopjim]

crossline distributors are competitors. You do not recruit crossline distributors.

Competitors for recruits - the TRUE Amway product? Several people have picked up on that – no small thanks to you!


So you believe 7-11 stores are competition for Coca-Cola? They both compete in the retail space to sell Coke, and Coca-Cola inc makes more money per can if they sell direct to the consumer

Why is Coca-Cola so stupid that they sell to competitors? :eek:

That might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Oh - my eyes!:jaw-dropp

You've betrayed your cult again: you consistently confuse 'business owner' with 'customer'. Amway rules do NOT make that mistake – yet you continue to do so.

Who was it complaining that people were misrepresenting the Amway business? Oh – right – that was Icerat.


This "you're recruiting competitors" thing is one of the dumbest most ignorant bits of rubbish I've seen out of "critics" for a long time. When they have to resort to BS like that it really goes to show what little they actually have to say.

Then you shouldn't have your panties so bunched up about it. But – you do. Wonder why?


Ápart from which, you just continue to completely ignore the evidence supplied that we have many non-distributor consumers. Tex has customers. I have customers. I provided a link to a forum where there were a bunch of Amway folk talking ... about their customers.

1. Many = more than one = two? Impressive!

2. Where is this 'proof'?

3. You are REQUIRED to have customers in North America, and once you reach a certain level, you are REQUIRED to make sure your downline participating in the scam have customers. 10 currently – which is no more than selling 10 cans of XS to 10 people for a penny each. Ta Da!

4. Doesn't stop Amway from admitting that LESS THAN 10% of their products are consumed by someone who ISN'T a 'business owner.'

5. With impressive 'customer' statistics like that - you might expect people who give Amway the benefit of the doubt of being a 'real business' consider competition for 'customers' would indeed be of concern.

[icerat]

3. You are REQUIRED to have customers in North America, and once you reach a certain level, you are REQUIRED to make sure your downline participating in the scam have customers. 10 currently – which is no more than selling 10 cans of XS to 10 people for a penny each. Ta Da!

Nope, false. You're not required at all. You only need it if you want a bonus on downline volume, ie you're actually trying to make money. Most people don't, and aren't.

4. Doesn't stop Amway from admitting that LESS THAN 10% of their products are consumed by someone who ISN'T a 'business owner.'

Amway has never said any such thing.

[Skeptic]

(2) I have since started and stopped and started and stopped other Amway businesses several times in other countries. I realised that was a pointless approach and stopped completely several years ago so I could clear out the problems causing the "stops".

Gee. I thought this was the greatest business opportunity ever! Turns out that for the last -- what? decade? -- you made no money with it (at least that's how I interpret "started and stopped") and stopped completely years ago.

Some "opportunity".

Early on this thread I grabbed the receipt and counted them up and I'd had nearly 20 customers the past 6 months, most were repeat orders, and I've picked up a few since then.

My restaurant is doing very well, too. In the last six months since we've opened, I've had over 25 different people eat there! Some of them came twice or three time! Only some of them were personal friends!

You're certainly going places with this amway thing.

[Tex2]

Nope, false. You're not required at all. You only need it if you want a bonus on downline volume, ie you're actually trying to make money. Most people don't, and aren't. >>>> Although technically correct (as usual), you are underestimating that most people aren't trying to make money. They simply get frustrated because of the tool scam.



Amway has never said any such thing.Amway didn't have to say it, Orrin & Co. did in their 2007 lawsuit (the number was actually MUCH less than 10%, about 3.5%), and Amway didn't refute it.

How 'bout that Bruce Anderson example? Can't respond, can you?

[Tex2]

Gee. I thought this was the greatest business opportunity ever! Turns out that for the last -- what? decade? -- you made no money with it (at least that's how I interpret "started and stopped") and stopped completely years ago. >>>> If Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player in the world but never took a shot, how could he expect to win the scoring title?

Some "opportunity". >>>> Some "logic." But thanks for another great lesson for my IBOs. LOL



My restaurant is doing very well, too. In the last six months since we've opened, I've had over 25 different people eat there! Some of them came twice or three time! Only some of them were personal friends! >>>> Really? I'll bet your restaurant's overhead was higher than an IBO getting tool scammed. LOL

You're certainly going places with this amway thing.You're certainly going places with your "logic" thing....NOT!!! LOL

[oggiesnr]

Out of interest is this type of thing still going on in the States?

NBC on Quixtar (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-215989802739458876)

Steve

[Tex2]

Out of interest is this type of thing still going on in the States?

NBC on Quixtar (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-215989802739458876)

SteveYes.

[NewtonTrino]

I've no idea what the total profit is, nothing significant obviously,

Then why bother having them? So you DO have a business. How about posint some P/L statements? Any idea how much profit you've made or is that something you don't track LOL.

[NewtonTrino]

BTW I'm just going to say that I think the representations made by the Amwayers here about their business is pretty telling. I own a multimillion dollar business and I'm here arguing with people who have been working this thing for decades and haven't made any money. The whole thing is just ridiculous. Come back when you can bring someone who actually makes some freakin' money in this scam.

[Tex2]

Then why bother having them? So you DO have a business. How about posint some P/L statements? Any idea how much profit you've made or is that something you don't track LOL.Why do you keep asking these types of questions, ones that cannot be verified, over and over again?

[Tex2]

BTW I'm just going to say that I think the representations made by the Amwayers here about their business is pretty telling. I own a multimillion dollar business and I'm here arguing with people who have been working this thing for decades and haven't made any money. The whole thing is just ridiculous. Come back when you can bring someone who actually makes some freakin' money in this scam.Telling indeed. The tool scam is the cause of it. Then go and operate your multimillion dollar business and let the adults clean up the mess. Your logic is just ridiculous. Come back when you can bring some logic that actually makes some sense.

[NewtonTrino]

Why do you keep asking these types of questions, ones that cannot be verified, over and over again?

To point out how truly vapid and spinny the responses about scamway have been. There is no meat to these discussions because we are talking to the scammed, not the scammers themselves on top of the pyramid. This would be WAY more interesting if we could talk with someone that has a large profitable amway business. That will never happen though because the scammers are smart enough to keep their mouths shut for the most part.

[Tex2]

To point out how truly vapid and spinny the responses about scamway have been. There is no meat to these discussions because we are talking to the scammed, not the scammers themselves on top of the pyramid. This would be WAY more interesting if we could talk with someone that has a large profitable amway business. That will never happen though because the scammers are smart enough to keep their mouths shut for the most part.I doubt very much you will see any LCKs on this forum. They only speak up AFTER they have been booted for one reason or another. They threaten to sue over a claim they painted over an ex-wife in an Amway headquarters building (Jody Victor), the details of a form (Billy Florence), and the nature of a qualification (Jody again), but when you call them LYING COWARDLY "KINGPINS" hundreds of times, they are silent, because they know it is true.

[NewtonTrino]

I doubt very much you will see any LCKs on this forum. They only speak up AFTER they have been booted for one reason or another. They threaten to sue over a claim they painted over an ex-wife in an Amway headquarters building (Jody Victor), the details of a form (Billy Florence), and the nature of a qualification (Jody again), but when you call them LYING COWARDLY "KINGPINS" hundreds of times, they are silent, because they know it is true.

I'd settle for a lowly diamond who an average business. Doesn't matter though because you're right, they will never talk about it here.

[Tex2]

I'd settle for a lowly diamond who an average business. Doesn't matter though because you're right, they will never talk about it here.Someone using the name of Ron Hale showed up on an Amway blog once but I ensured they didn't last very long. If one of them showed up on any blog I'm aware of, they wouldn't stay very long, either.

[NewtonTrino]

What would you guys think of an MLM selling frozen foods shipped direct to your door?

[corplinx]

What would you guys think of an MLM selling frozen foods shipped direct to your door?

Normally I buy my frozen foods while I'm at the local supermarket or at Costco.

An MLM selling frozen foods, delivered to your door, probably doesn't move a lot of product compared to a SAM's or Costco.

[Tex2]

Amway already has the following that have frozen foods:

Partner stores Ada Valley Frozen Foods and Omaha Steaks, plus Ribbon Gift Cards.

All of these are shipped direct to your door, just like all other Amway products.

[CynicalSkeptic]

What would you guys think of an MLM selling frozen foods shipped direct to your door?

I'd think that unless they're competitively priced with the local supermarket, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

[Tex2]

I'd think that unless they're competitively priced with the local supermarket, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.If price alone was the only factor, the partner stores I mentioned would no longer be in business. Do you really believe price is the ONLY factor? Never mind, I already know the answer, CynicalSkeptic! LOL

[NewtonTrino]

What would you guys think of an MLM selling frozen foods shipped direct to your door?


Answer: It doesn't matter what the product is it's the MLM part that makes it's crazy.

[Skeptic]

These guys aren't businessmen -- they do about as much business in six months as Joe Schmoe's convenience store does in half of a slow day.

They are playing at being businessmen -- in reality they are just Amway's suckers.

[NewtonTrino]

I concur. It's a religious cult based around money. The idea being it's a magical shortcut that "anyone" can do in their "spare" time. Sorry but those are lies as is the description of the business model given to the recruits.

[Tex2]

Answer: It doesn't matter what the product is it's the MLM part that makes it's crazy.Answer: It doesn't matter what the MLM is, Newton is crazy. LOL

[Tex2]

These guys aren't businessmen -- they do about as much business in six months as Joe Schmoe's convenience store does in half of a slow day.

They are playing at being businessmen -- in reality they are just Amway's suckers.You should change your name to Clueless. LOL

[Tex2]

I concur. It's a religious cult based around money. The idea being it's a magical shortcut that "anyone" can do in their "spare" time. Sorry but those are lies as is the description of the business model given to the recruits.Another cluless remark. Too bad the name Clueless has already been taken. How about Clueless2?

[NewtonTrino]

How about you come back when you've made a profit?

You are seriously going to sit here and call use clueless when you've been wasting your time on this crap and not even making a buck?

You are being scammed and brainwashed.

BTW just to be clear on the brainwashing, I'm not claiming some sort of secret conspiracy using CIA drugs or something. It's brainwashing in the same way thay many kids are brought up to believe their parents religion and are indoctrinated into it. When you join Amway more than likely you will be indoctrinated using the meetings, cd's, books etc. They are very convincing and many people simply get sucked into the cult and start believing it. The people setting this up are not dumb and really know how to manipulate people (in the same way religions are good at it). Amway has a slightly higher bar because they can't get at most children...

[Drudgewire]

Hey thanks to whoever gave out the Merchants of Deception link. Really interesting stuff even though I got douchechills from the author about twenty times reading it.

[Tex2]

How about you come back when you've made a profit? >>>> How about you come back when you get a clue? LOL

You are seriously going to sit here and call use clueless when you've been wasting your time on this crap and not even making a buck? >>>> I've been making bucks. LOL

You are being scammed and brainwashed. >>>> You are being ignorant and clueless. LOL

BTW just to be clear on the brainwashing, I'm not claiming some sort of secret conspiracy using CIA drugs or something. >>>> That's a relief! LOL

It's brainwashing in the same way thay many kids are brought up to believe their parents religion and are indoctrinated into it. >>>> So everyone on this forum having religious beliefs are brainwashed? I'll bet the others are too wimpy to call your BS on this one. LOL

When you join Amway more than likely you will be indoctrinated using the meetings, cd's, books etc. >>>> When you join college more than likely you will be indoctrinated using the classroom, textbooks, etc. LOL

They are very convincing and many people simply get sucked into the cult and start believing it. >>>> Colleges are also very convincing and many people simply get sucked into their major and start believing it. LOL

The people setting this up are not dumb and really know how to manipulate people (in the same way religions are good at it). >>>> Another religioius slam. I couldn't care less what you think about my religion, atheist. LOL

Amway has a slightly higher bar because they can't get at most children...College has a slightly higher bar because they can't get at most children....LOL

[Tex2]

Hey thanks to whoever gave out the Merchants of Deception link. Really interesting stuff even though I got douchechills from the author about twenty times reading it.If you liked that book, check out the tool scam facts, the root cause of the problems described in the book, here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

[NewtonTrino]

College has a slightly higher bar because they can't get at most children....LOL


This analogy doesn't make any sense. Care to explain in more detail?

[Tex2]

This analogy doesn't make any sense. Care to explain in more detail?Not really, you're a waste of my time. LOL

[CynicalSkeptic]

Ok, whoever wrote the Tex2 reply bot, needs to tweak the algorithm. It's stuck on posting "LOL" at the end of every single post.

[Tex2]

Ok, whoever wrote the Tex2 reply bot, needs to tweak the algorithm. It's stuck on posting "LOL" at the end of every single post.It's not an algorithm problem, it's a physical laugh, out loud, that occurs as I type my responses. LOL Just to be clear, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing AT you. LOL More great content for IBO training. LOL Do you guys realize how "famous" you are? LOL

[Skeptic]

I've been making bucks. LOL

How much? You're always incredibly vague on that. I am willing to bet good money you didn't actually break $1000 of profit last year.

[Tex2]

How much? You're always incredibly vague on that. I am willing to bet good money you didn't actually break $1000 of profit last year.Wouldn't you like to know. LOL Maybe you could find out more with a phone call, if you had the guts to call! LOL

[cyborg]

Wouldn't you like to know. LOL Maybe you could find out more with a phone call, if you had the guts to call! LOL

Ah yes, because a phone call is clearly necessary in order to convey simple numerical information.

Oh wait, I forgot, it's not simple, it's all very complex and requires an in-depth explanation that only an interactive phone call can achieve.

[Tex2]

Ah yes, because a phone call is clearly necessary in order to convey simple numerical information. >>>> No, a phone call is necessary to stop you making a fool out of yourself in writing. LOL

Oh wait, I forgot, it's not simple, it's all very complex and requires an in-depth explanation that only an interactive phone call can achieve.It's simple, YOU just can't absorb it. LOL

[cyborg]

It's simple, YOU just can't absorb it.

Ah, much like an Amway kitchen towel.

[icerat]

Hey thanks to whoever gave out the Merchants of Deception link. Really interesting stuff even though I got douchechills from the author about twenty times reading it.

I did too when I read it. I got infuriated at the guys upline. Then I got further infuriated because people read that book and think it's a typical Amway experience.

It's not even close to my experience, and given how few complaints there are about Amway, relative to those who've had experience, simple logic would suggest it's not close to most people experiences.

Anyway, time to exit this thread again. Let's summarize.

Critic's claim:
1. the products are lousy
Reality:
the products are great and have won heaps of awards
2. hardly anybody makes any money
Reality:
this is true, only people who work hard and try to make money make money, a minority.
3. it's a pyramid
Reality:
you make no money by recruiting people, which is the key requirement to be a pyramid
4. there's no "real" customers
Reality:
There's lots of "real" customers. Actively building ABOs usually have many customers, and numerous examples have been given. Furthermore, as governments around the world have acknowledged, ABOs buying stuff for their own use (as opposed to stuffing it in their garage) are as "real" a customer as anyone else

I'll probably have to be back to repeat this in a few weeks as this thread seems to never die. Try ignoring Tex, that's what I do.

[Tex2]

I did too when I read it. I got infuriated at the guys upline. Then I got further infuriated because people read that book and think it's a typical Amway experience. >>>> His description isn't much different than what I've seen written about N21/Jim Dornan. In fact, Jim Dornan was the ONLY one who had to withdraw a letter after the UK blowup. You remember that letter, icerat/insider/ibofb. It's the one you posted, took down, reposted, and took down again. It is now "memorialized" on various blogs.

It's not even close to my experience, and given how few complaints there are about Amway, relative to those who've had experience, simple logic would suggest it's not close to most people experiences. >>>> That's because you suffer from the Stockholm syndrome. Most people don't complain, they just walk away and don't want to even think about it any more. They also believe the BS it was THEIR fault they didn't succeed.

Anyway, time to exit this thread again. Let's summarize.

Critic's claim:
1. the products are lousy
Reality:
the products are great and have won heaps of awards >>>> No argument here, but many are still overpriced.
2. hardly anybody makes any money
Reality:
this is true, only people who work hard and try to make money make money, a minority. >>>> The reason for this being true is the tool scam.
3. it's a pyramid
Reality:
you make no money by recruiting people, which is the key requirement to be a pyramid >>>> That doesn't mean it isn't a tool scam.
4. there's no "real" customers
Reality:
There's lots of "real" customers. Actively building ABOs usually have many customers, and numerous examples have been given. Furthermore, as governments around the world have acknowledged, ABOs buying stuff for their own use (as opposed to stuffing it in their garage) are as "real" a customer as anyone else >>>> In the U.S., there aren't nearly enough customers, so your "usually" word is BS. Numerous examples does not mean typical, and you know that. The U.S. policy is still unclear on the definition of a customer, and non-IBO customers do provide obvious competitive price protection.

I'll probably have to be back to repeat this in a few weeks as this thread seems to never die. Try ignoring Tex, that's what I do.Keep ignoring me, I love getting in the last word. LOL

Still can't address the Bruce Anderson example, can you? LOL

[Bob Klase]

To sum up the extent of valuable information Tex is providing, I thought it might help to consolidate some of his posts. His last twelve:

If price alone was the only factor, the partner stores I mentioned would no longer be in business. Do you really believe price is the ONLY factor? Never mind, I already know the answer, CynicalSkeptic! LOL

Answer: It doesn't matter what the MLM is, Newton is crazy. LOL

You should change your name to Clueless. LOL

Another cluless remark. Too bad the name Clueless has already been taken. How about Clueless2?

College has a slightly higher bar because they can't get at most children....LOL

If you liked that book, check out the tool scam facts, the root cause of the problems described in the book, here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

He must have been distracted on that one- he forgot to LOL.

Not really, you're a waste of my time. LOL

It's not an algorithm problem, it's a physical laugh, out loud, that occurs as I type my responses. LOL Just to be clear, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing AT you. LOL More great content for IBO training. LOL Do you guys realize how "famous" you are? LOL

Wouldn't you like to know. LOL Maybe you could find out more with a phone call, if you had the guts to call! LOL

It's simple, YOU just can't absorb it. LOL

More like your brain on drugs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5gBJGnaXs or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyXFN4ocN_o

Keep ignoring me, I love getting in the last word. LOL

[Tex2]

To sum up the extent of valuable information Tex is providing, I thought it might help to consolidate some of his posts. His last twelve:













He must have been distracted on that one- he forgot to LOL.You should have also posted what these comments were in response to! LOL LOL (that makes up for the one I "forgot".) LOL

[Porkchopjim]

I did too when I read it. I got infuriated at the guys upline. Then I got further infuriated because people read that book and think it's a typical Amway experience.

A well earned reputation by Amway, even given your 'personal experience' – and seeing as you've never tried to 'build the business' to anything that might support you (never mind retire on the beach), we can pretty much ignore that as the typical 'slacker' experience.

Anyway, time to exit this thread again. Let's summarize.

Critic's claim:
1. the products are lousy
Reality:
the products are great and have won heaps of awards

Reality: critics claim the products are overpriced because of two reasons: the 34% mark-up required to pay bonuses, and the demand for those products – and thus their market – is artificial.

Please don't go changing what was said on our account just to satisfy your cult needs.

2. hardly anybody makes any money
Reality:
this is true, only people who work hard and try to make money make money, a minority.

People who work hard and try to make money also come out badly.

3. it's a pyramid
Reality:
you make no money by recruiting people, which is the key requirement to be a pyramid

It's a product based pyramid scheme where the vast majority of profit, if realized, comes from the newest member's pockets.

4. there's no "real" customers
Reality:
There's lots of "real" customers. Actively building ABOs usually have many customers, and numerous examples have been given. Furthermore, as governments around the world have acknowledged, ABOs buying stuff for their own use (as opposed to stuffing it in their garage) are as "real" a customer as anyone else

Anecdotal evidence of 20 customers (some repeats) in 6 months doesn't even meet the 1979 FTC vs. Amway standard of 25 per month...since dropped to 10 per month for those who wish to skim off downline's volume. Also, 'lots' of customers are not the ones buying Amway products: it's the IBOs buying their own products to artificially inflate how their 'business' looks and to give the appearance that it does work by filling in the little circles in 'the plan'. Stuffing overpriced vitamins down their throats to meet performance 'goals' is somehow better than stuffing products in their garages? If that level of consumption was based on true demand, Amway would have grown in the North American market instead of being stagnant for years. Amway's own number's don't support your assertions.


For everyone else:

Try ignoring Tex, that's what I do.

Search back in this thread for the warning I gave about Tex and the “LAST WORD.” We will digress to simply repeating your statements back to you.

You can not win an argument with a cultist who thinks he makes a profit simply by buying Amway products.

[Tex2]

You can not win an argument with an assistant bed-pan changer assistant (pcj) who thinks lying about others enables him to win an argument. LOL

[oggiesnr]

Due to assorted Court decisions the UK model for Amway is significantly different from the US one (according to the two company websites). The next set of UK earnings figures (due in a couple of months) will be fascinating because they'll show what can be realistically earnt without the tool scams.

I think it's important to separate out the earnings of Amway IBOs (at whatever level) from that of the parent company. As a private company we get few figures but the value to the shareholders is related to the profit they make on overall sales and manufacturing and not to the fact it's an MLM. The only thought at the back of my mind is if the products are so good (and they may be) could the company bosses have made the same profit (or more) by using other routes to market (selling to WALMART or whoever). No-one will will ever know the answer but it's fun to speculate.:)

Steve

[Skeptic]

Wouldn't you like to know.

I'm not THAT interested. Especially when the answer -- "I made next to nothing in Amway" -- is obvious.

[Tex2]

Due to assorted Court decisions the UK model for Amway is significantly different from the US one (according to the two company websites). >>>> Unfortunately, neither company website describes the biggest difference between the 2 countries, the lack of a tool scam in the UK.

The next set of UK earnings figures (due in a couple of months) will be fascinating because they'll show what can be realistically earnt without the tool scams. >>>> Agreed, but there will be a "learning curve", so I'm not going to rush to a judgment based on a single year result. Although cleaned up, there's a lot of leftover reputation issues that don't go away when you snap your fingers, especially in the internet world.

I think it's important to separate out the earnings of Amway IBOs (at whatever level) from that of the parent company. >>>> Absolutely agree. It is also important to separate out the upline LCK earnings from the downline earnings, and focus on net profit and tool scam profit.

As a private company we get few figures but the value to the shareholders is related to the profit they make on overall sales and manufacturing and not to the fact it's an MLM. >>>> Amway has no shareholders, it is privately owned.

The only thought at the back of my mind is if the products are so good (and they may be) could the company bosses have made the same profit (or more) by using other routes to market (selling to WALMART or whoever). No-one will will ever know the answer but it's fun to speculate.:)

SteveYou missed the entire concept Rich and Jay had when they started Amway.

[Tex2]

I'm not THAT interested. Especially when the answer -- "I made next to nothing in Amway" -- is obvious.Good, then I'll expect you'll stop asking. LOL

By the way, what I make has little impact on the tool scam.

[corplinx]

Amway already has the following that have frozen foods:

Partner stores Ada Valley Frozen Foods and Omaha Steaks, plus Ribbon Gift Cards.

All of these are shipped direct to your door, just like all other Amway products.

Omaha Steaks already does direct sales. They also have storefronts. I get coupons from them constantly for going to the local store.

I am not sure what the value add is for buying it through Amway. I guess you get an Amway discount off the standard price. However, buying it from the retail store, you basically get 50 or more percent off everything with the coupons they spam you with.

[Tex2]

Omaha Steaks already does direct sales. They also have storefronts. I get coupons from them constantly for going to the local store. >>>> Many stores have a variety of distribution methods.

I am not sure what the value add is for buying it through Amway. I guess you get an Amway discount off the standard price. However, buying it from the retail store, you basically get 50 or more percent off everything with the coupons they spam you with.We get PV/BV, which amounts to an Amway discount (except we also get additional profit for customer and downline orders), and many of the retail stores specials are also available online, and some online specials are not available in the stores.

[NewtonTrino]

This sounds like a great test case. Care you post from PV/BV numbers from Omaha steaks?

Let's see how much discount you get compared to some coupons.

[Tex2]

This sounds like a great test case. Care you post from PV/BV numbers from Omaha steaks?

Let's see how much discount you get compared to some coupons.You misread my previous post. Try reading it again. Slowly.

[NewtonTrino]

Partner stores Ada Valley Frozen Foods and Omaha Steaks, plus Ribbon Gift Cards.

and

We get PV/BV, which amounts to an Amway discount (except we also get additional profit for customer and downline orders), and many of the retail stores specials are also available online, and some online specials are not available in the stores.


So my question is how much PV/BV do you get on Omaha steak? What is the maximum discount you will receive from this?

[NewtonTrino]

I did too when I read it. I got infuriated at the guys upline. Then I got further infuriated because people read that book and think it's a typical Amway experience.

In fact his experience isn't typical because he built a decent sized organization. The rest of it seems pretty par for the course though.


It's not even close to my experience, and given how few complaints there are about Amway, relative to those who've had experience, simple logic would suggest it's not close to most people experiences.


You're joking right?


Anyway, time to exit this thread again. Let's summarize.


The heat is on.. on the street!



Critic's claim:
1. the products are lousy
Reality:
the products are great and have won heaps of awards


Great compared to what? Other overpriced vitamins? other SOAP? Personally I've never been particularly impressed with the core products. The scents tend to be odd smelling to me.


2. hardly anybody makes any money
Reality:
this is true, only people who work hard and try to make money make money, a minority.


Can you define work hard? I mean specifically? I saw a ton of people working very hard for no monetary reward. Given the income numbers FROM AMWAY it seems like you have a huge hill to climb on this one.


3. it's a pyramid
Reality:
you make no money by recruiting people, which is the key requirement to be a pyramid


You might not but your upline certainly will. The goal is to be the upline right? Ongoing tools income from every distributor who is plugged in certainly fits my definition of a pyramid. Instead of being like a typical scheme it's ONGOING scam income not just a one time fee like some of the gifting pyramids. Until you can show some proof that a significant amount of product (80%+) goes to external customers I think calling it a pyramid is being generous. Brainwashing cult that will wreck your life is a more accurate description.


4. there's no "real" customers
Reality:
There's lots of "real" customers. Actively building ABOs usually have many customers, and numerous examples have been given. Furthermore, as governments around the world have acknowledged, ABOs buying stuff for their own use (as opposed to stuffing it in their garage) are as "real" a customer as anyone else


ABO's are not real customers. Period.

As for the rest of the customers lets see some proof. Almost all product goes into the pyramid and doesn't come out the other side. Most organizations don't teach retailing as the primary method to make money.


I'll probably have to be back to repeat this in a few weeks as this thread seems to never die. Try ignoring Tex, that's what I do.

You've been quite persistent in repeating your spin. I will admit you are pretty good at it! Unfortunately your "facts" don't hold up to scrutiny.

[ysabella]

I'm still getting caught up on this thread after being away for a month, but I wanted to mention that I did buy an Amway mascara and I give it a thumbs up. It's a waterproof mascara and it stayed put (my road-test of it was at a three-hour walk-around singing gig, mostly outdoors), and it didn't irritate my eyes, which some waterproof mascaras do.

I don't know that this really helps the discussion, but there you are.

[NewtonTrino]

at a three-hour walk-around singing gig


A what? That sounds weird.

[oggiesnr]

You missed the entire concept Rich and Jay had when they started Amway.

I am aware that it's privately owned, I used the word "shareholders" loosely to represent those who own whatever percentage of the company.

I haven't missed the concept, I was just idely speculating as to whether more profit might have been created differently.

Steve

[Tex2]

and


So my question is how much PV/BV do you get on Omaha steak? What is the maximum discount you will receive from this?As long as you understand IBOs ALSO have access to the online sales, some of which may not be available in the stores, and don't pay full price, here's the PV/BV for Omaha Steak: 11.67%/28%. For Ada Valley Frozen Foods: 24.17%/58% Ribbon: about 35%/42%. I don't know if you understand MLM, but you also receive money from your customer purchases, as well as your downline and their customer purchases, so it's not just your own personal discount. In fact, that's a good question for YOU - given the above numbers, what is the maximum discount for $100 of personal purchases, and how much money would you make if you had 3 different legs buying $100 worth of these products? Careful, the answers to these questions are variable, and YOU will have to define the variables. Good luck.

[Tex2]

I'm still getting caught up on this thread after being away for a month, but I wanted to mention that I did buy an Amway mascara and I give it a thumbs up. It's a waterproof mascara and it stayed put (my road-test of it was at a three-hour walk-around singing gig, mostly outdoors), and it didn't irritate my eyes, which some waterproof mascaras do.

I don't know that this really helps the discussion, but there you are.What, no comments on her experience? This is a very supportive data point. I guess the real question is whether the mascara was worth the cost. Was it?

[Tex2]

A what? That sounds weird.What sounds weird is your silence on a very positive experience she had. LOL

[Tex2]

I am aware that it's privately owned, I used the word "shareholders" loosely to represent those who own whatever percentage of the company. >>>> Then the word is "owner", not "shareholder."

I haven't missed the concept, I was just idely speculating as to whether more profit might have been created differently.

SteveMuch of this thread is idle speculation. LOL In fact, it's uninformed/ignorant/critical idle speculation. LOL

[NewtonTrino]

As long as you understand IBOs ALSO have access to the online sales, some of which may not be available in the stores, and don't pay full price, here's the PV/BV for Omaha Steak: 11.67%/28%. For Ada Valley Frozen Foods: 24.17%/58% Ribbon: about 35%/42%. I don't know if you understand MLM, but you also receive money from your customer purchases, as well as your downline and their customer purchases, so it's not just your own personal discount. In fact, that's a good question for YOU - given the above numbers, what is the maximum discount for $100 of personal purchases, and how much money would you make if you had 3 different legs buying $100 worth of these products? Careful, the answers to these questions are variable, and YOU will have to define the variables. Good luck.

Did you miss the part about me writing software for Amway businesses that calculates all this stuff? It also tracked tools profits both using the old "price break" method and using the newer volume method as well as a bunch of other stuff.

Anyway once you have the PV/BV values calculating your direct discount is pretty easy. PV is point volume which goes towards calculating what your discount % is. So for example a $100 steak at 11.67 PV gives you 11.67 Point Value towards upping your discount percentage. You then put your total monthly PV into the chart and it gives you your discount %. This discount is then applied to the BV portion of the sale. So for a $100 steak the bonus value is $28 * whatever your percentage is. So if you had enough PV to hit 25% your total discount would be 0.25 * $28 = $7 or 7% of the $100 steak.

If you are getting a special or cheap price I suppose you could include that as a variable as well.

For your case with 3 downline you discount is simply.
Your BV * your bonus percentage - leg 123s BV * their bonus percent

If this was the ONLY thing everyone bought (e.g. you and 3 different legs all bought $100 of omaha steak) you wouldn't even qualify for a discount because there is only 400 * 11.67 = 46.68 PV which isn't enough to qualify.

The best you can do is to have enough side volume to get you up to 25% in which case you would get the full $7 discount for each $100 steak. If this was your downlines only volume you would get a discount of $28 total on all 4 steaks. Your downline again doesn't qualify for any discount or bonus with only 11pv.

BTW this is slightly simplified because there are other bonuses in Amway not tied to this direct discount.

Anyone not follow that?

[NewtonTrino]

What sounds weird is your silence on a very positive experience she had. LOL

The plural of anecdote is not data. So we've established that someone things Artistry products are good quality? I'll just agree with you and move on. It really doesn't change anything with respect to the business being profitable or not.

[NewtonTrino]

Much of this thread is idle speculation. LOL In fact, it's uninformed/ignorant/critical idle speculation. LOL

All he's saying is that it's an interesting thought experiment to consider whether or not it would be more profitable to sell Amway soap in a different manner.

From what I understand Amway has on occasion manufactured products under contract for other companies to be sold retail. So it looks like they've thought about that already.

That being said a captive downline audience brainwashed into buying massive amounts of products is probably a pretty solid business plan.

[Tex2]

Did you miss the part about me writing software for Amway businesses that calculates all this stuff? It also tracked tools profits both using the old "price break" method and using the newer volume method as well as a bunch of other stuff. >>>> I didn't realize Amway didn't know how to calculate their own bonuses. LOL How long did it take you to realize you were writing software for LCKs who were ripping off their downline?

Anyway once you have the PV/BV values calculating your direct discount is pretty easy. PV is point volume which goes towards calculating what your discount % is. So for example a $100 steak at 11.67 PV gives you 11.67 Point Value towards upping your discount percentage. You then put your total monthly PV into the chart and it gives you your discount %. This discount is then applied to the BV portion of the sale. So for a $100 steak the bonus value is $28 * whatever your percentage is. So if you had enough PV to hit 25% your total discount would be 0.25 * $28 = $7 or 7% of the $100 steak.

If you are getting a special or cheap price I suppose you could include that as a variable as well.

For your case with 3 downline you discount is simply.
Your BV * your bonus percentage - leg 123s BV * their bonus percent

If this was the ONLY thing everyone bought (e.g. you and 3 different legs all bought $100 of omaha steak) you wouldn't even qualify for a discount because there is only 400 * 11.67 = 46.68 PV which isn't enough to qualify.

The best you can do is to have enough side volume to get you up to 25% in which case you would get the full $7 discount for each $100 steak. If this was your downlines only volume you would get a discount of $28 total on all 4 steaks. Your downline again doesn't qualify for any discount or bonus with only 11pv.

BTW this is slightly simplified because there are other bonuses in Amway not tied to this direct discount.

Anyone not follow that?Wow, getting paid for others to eat steak. As you said, this is only a single product, and there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of others to choose from. The steaks don't even have as good of PV/BV as the core line. Of course, what's his name wouldn't buy Omaha Steak, because it costs more than his supermarket steak. Of course, I'm sure the supermarket steak quality is as good or better than Omaha Steaks are...NOT!!! LOL

[Tex2]

The plural of anecdote is not data. So we've established that someone things Artistry products are good quality? I'll just agree with you and move on. It really doesn't change anything with respect to the business being profitable or not.I didn't say her experience was data, I said it was a data POINT. I'll bet the person she bought the mascara from made a profit, and you have demonstrated you could calculate the profit. Now, whether that person turns around and spends that money to feed the tool scam monster is a different question, and chances are high they did. It's not enough to "just agree and move on", that is an intellectually dishonest position. You should refer others who state Amway products are "junk", "crap", "inferor quality", etc., that others enjoy the products, and the mascara is apparently something that is not easy to get right.

[Tex2]

All he's saying is that it's an interesting thought experiment to consider whether or not it would be more profitable to sell Amway soap in a different manner. >>>> I think it would be an interesting thought experiment for you to take a long walk on a short pier.

From what I understand Amway has on occasion manufactured products under contract for other companies to be sold retail. So it looks like they've thought about that already. >>>> Any manufacturer would be foolish NOT to use expensive manufacturing equipment that would otherwise be idle. I've thought about a lot of things, with no intention to take action on them.

That being said a captive downline audience brainwashed into buying massive amounts of products is probably a pretty solid business plan.That being said a person having intimate knowledge of the tool scam yet doing virtually nothing about is probably a pretty solid idiot.

[Tex2]

Correction: That being said a person having intimate knowledge of the tool scam yet doing virtually nothing about it is probably a pretty solid idiot.

[Porkchopjim]

Correction: That being said a person having intimate knowledge of the tool scam yet doing virtually nothing about it is probably a pretty solid idiot.

That's the only thing you've proven beyond a doubt, Texie!

No one here would argue with that!


P.S. - Spamming websites with your idiocy does, in fact, equal doing 'virtually nothing.' I know you have a problem with non-Amway concepts, so I wanted to spell that out for you and save you lots of confusion on that part of reality.

Glad I could help!

[Tex2]

That's the only thing you've proven beyond a doubt, Texie! >>>> Glad you agree.

No one here would argue with that! >>>> I think you could find someone here willing to argue with virtually anything. LOL


P.S. - Spamming websites with your idiocy does, in fact, equal doing 'virtually nothing.' I know you have a problem with non-Amway concepts, so I wanted to spell that out for you and save you lots of confusion on that part of reality. >>>> If all I was doing was "spamming websites", you would have a point. However, I've done FAR more than that. I wanted to spell that out for you and save you lots of confusion on that part of reality. LOL

Glad I could help! The only "help" you provide is when you wipe up the spilled bed-pan contents in your bed-pan changing assistant position, when the bed-pan changer "accidentally" spills a little of the bed-pan contents to keep you occupied. LOL

[wicked_ways]

So you do believe Coca-Cola are idiots for selling coke to their competitors, 7-11?
More nonsensical rubbish. You "don't understand a business model where instead of having end consumers, you rely on ... end consumers"

Coca-Cola is not in competition with 7-11!

Coca-Cola is in competition with Pepsi-Cola (among others)!

They are in competition with each other to get 7-11 to retail their product to end consumers.

You, sir, are the one who seems to completely ignore facts to advance your argument.

I can provide you many, many links where people absolutely believe and talk about Bigfoot living in North America.
Your links to the cult of Amway are equal to my links to the cult of Bigfoot.
Amway forums talk about "customers" like Bigfoot forums talk about "sightings."

[Tex2]

Coca-Cola is not in competition with 7-11!

Coca-Cola is in competition with Pepsi-Cola (among others)!

They are in competition with each other to get 7-11 to retail their product to end consumers.

You, sir, are the one who seems to completely ignore facts to advance your argument.

I can provide you many, many links where people absolutely believe and talk about Bigfoot living in North America.
Your links to the cult of Amway are equal to my links to the cult of Bigfoot.
Amway forums talk about "customers" like Bigfoot forums talk about "sightings."Icerat agrees Coke isn't in competition with 7-11, get a grip. Please don't tell my customers they don't buy products from me, or you may get a visit from Bigfoot tonight! LOL

[Porkchopjim]

If all I was doing was "spamming websites", you would have a point. However, I've done FAR more than that.


Right....

...must like your Amway business, the definition of 'doing something' must not be tied to anything anyone can measure. Because after all these years, you haven't done anything, in either.

In fact, in NA, the tool scam is healthier than ever! And you're STILL a 50+ year old failed Amway salesman after 16+ years and $40K lost...who STILL thinks that he makes a profit simply from BUYING products.

Oh, I almost forgot 10,000 'tools' stored in your house for the "Tex Tool Revolution!" How's that going by the way? You still playing your tapes to people over the phone?

And, no - you can't take credit for the UK. You found out about that AFTER it happened.

Well, one thing for sure: you STILL haven't figured out the 'quote' function.

I just CAN'T figure out why no one would take you seriously...either with your stupid 'tool scam' ideas, or your assurance that your 'internet business' is viable.

Wait - they don't.

[Tex2]

Right.... >>>> That's right, thanks for agreeing.

...must like your Amway business, the definition of 'doing something' must not be tied to anything anyone can measure. Because after all these years, you haven't done anything, in either. >>>> You don't have a clue, not that I'm surprised. LOL

In fact, in NA, the tool scam is healthier than ever! And you're STILL a 50+ year old failed Amway salesman after 16+ years and $40K lost...who STILL thinks that he makes a profit simply from BUYING products. >>>> STILL clueless, aren't you? LOL

Oh, I almost forgot 10,000 'tools' stored in your house for the "Tex Tool Revolution!" How's that going by the way? You still playing your tapes to people over the phone? >>>> Why, would you like to hear one? LOL

And, no - you can't take credit for the UK. You found out about that AFTER it happened. >>>> When did I ever take credit for the UK?

Well, one thing for sure: you STILL haven't figured out the 'quote' function. >>>> It's not worth the effort or time, with people like YOU! LOL

I just CAN'T figure out why no one would take you seriously...either with your stupid 'tool scam' ideas, or your assurance that your 'internet business' is viable. >>>> You are in favor of the tool scam? Better tell the UK you don't like what they did!!! LOL

Wait - they don't.Stand by....LOL

[wicked_ways]

So you do believe Coca-Cola are idiots for selling coke to their competitors, 7-11?


More nonsensical rubbish. You "don't understand a business model where instead of having end consumers, you rely on ... end consumers"

Ápart from which, you just continue to completely ignore the evidence supplied that we have many non-distributor consumers. Tex has customers. I have customers. I provided a link to a forum where there were a bunch of Amway folk talking ... about their customers.

So you're not only wilfully choosing to ignore evidence, your also making illogical statements like the above. In my world a skeptic is someone who is rational. On this issue at least, you clearly are not.[/QUOTE]

Icerat agrees Coke isn't in competition with 7-11, get a grip. Please don't tell my customers they don't buy products from me, or you may get a visit from Bigfoot tonight! LOL

Hello Tex2,
I guess the question by Icerat (bolded and italicized by me) was misunderstood by me? Thank you for demanding I get a grip.

My analogy about Bigfoot was meant to point out that your customers (downliners) are just as real as Bigfoot. In other words, without proof they do not exist. See?

How many customers do you have?

[NewtonTrino]

Bonus or Discount != Profit

A bonus or discount is simply income, not profit. They are not one and the same thing.

[NewtonTrino]

I'm sure the supermarket steak quality is as good or better than Omaha Steaks are...NOT!!! LOL


My supermarket has good quality prime stuff. I can find both dry and wet aged prime steaks around here. Omaha does have some fine steaks though as long as you order the prime stuff.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Other than anecdotes, I can really only verify that a few people made a fortune off of amway. Dick DeVos, for example. He's more filthy rich than god. Occasionally tries to get into politics. Ran for governor of my state once and lost. Throws money around to get his name on things like museums and art galleries. Everyone else is just drinking the kool-aid.

This business plan simply isn't how money is made, except for the folks at the top, and any 'run your own small business' manual would make that obvious. For example, my wife owns a business that manufactures tents and awnings. She's buying raw materials directly from the company that weaves them, employing herself and a couple other machine operators, and creating a product with a value and a market. None of this upline and downline cattle waste.

We wouldn't make money buying from a 'middle man' distributor in order to set ourselves up as another middle man to resell to yet another group of distributors we had to recruit. We wouldn't buy from a redistributor at all, since they'd charge more and be harder to work with. We need 'right now' delivery, since part of the business model is to minimize stale raw materials by right time deliveries and rapid fabrication to order.

Compare this to what people do here: moving projuct around till some poor schmuck gets stuck with it and ends up warehousing it in their garage, then finding new schmucks to buy and warehouse product. I've got a neighbor with a garage AND a basement full of inventory with no market and no potential to profit. She keeps hoping that somehow she'll be able to move this load of cattle waste, but if it sells at all it sells poorly because it ends up being marked up again and again as it moves down the line, and it's not neccesarily a better product than anything else out there. Her only option would be to lie to someone gullible and convince them, using all the helpful visual aids provided by the company, that THEY can make money selling this stuff, and move it into someone else's garage.

A

[Skeptic]

Bonus or Discount != Profit

Actually, there is an important group of economists which DOES consider "paying less" the same as "profit".

For example, they argue that if you buy something at 50% off, you saved 50% -- which mean you made 50% profit -- which you then use to buy it at 50% of the price, which means you got it for free!

They're known as "women". :)

[NewtonTrino]

Funny one.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Actually, there is an important group of economists which DOES consider "paying less" the same as "profit".

For example, they argue that if you buy something at 50% off, you saved 50% -- which mean you made 50% profit -- which you then use to buy it at 50% of the price, which means you got it for free!

They're known as "women". :)

I thought they were known as 'wal mart shoppers'. Classic cases of buying something you don't need because it's cheap. I've known lots of people who fell into this fallacy. I've also known business managers who regarded failure to move product at its desired mark up as a loss. If I had the option of moving one unit of product a day at a 100 percent markup or ten units of product a day at a 20 percent markup, I'd choose the latter, even if the 'suggested retail price' was based on the 100 percent markup.

A

[Tex2]

Hello Tex2,
I guess the question by Icerat (bolded and italicized by me) was misunderstood by me? Thank you for demanding I get a grip. >>>> You're welcome. LOL

My analogy about Bigfoot was meant to point out that your customers (downliners) are just as real as Bigfoot. In other words, without proof they do not exist. See? >>>> I don't need to prove anything to you, you can't even read for comprehension. LOL

How many customers do you have? >>>> Enough. Even if I told you, how would I "prove" it to you anyway? LOL

[Tex2]

Bonus or Discount != Profit

A bonus or discount is simply income, not profit. They are not one and the same thing.Of course a bonus or discount is profit, gross profit. In fact, Amway describes the monthly average bonus as gross profit in their literature. Net profit is something else, and usually negative thanks to the tool scam: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html Check out my new thread here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/amway-approved-blog-words.html

You need to pay more attention to the dollars and stop quibbling about the exact words to use to define them.

[Tex2]

My supermarket has good quality prime stuff. I can find both dry and wet aged prime steaks around here. Omaha does have some fine steaks though as long as you order the prime stuff.Good for you. Do you think everyone else in the country has the same situation?

[Tex2]

Other than anecdotes, I can really only verify that a few people made a fortune off of amway. Dick DeVos, for example. He's more filthy rich than god. Occasionally tries to get into politics. Ran for governor of my state once and lost. Throws money around to get his name on things like museums and art galleries. Everyone else is just drinking the kool-aid. >>>> What do you define as a "fortune"?

This business plan simply isn't how money is made, except for the folks at the top, and any 'run your own small business' manual would make that obvious. For example, my wife owns a business that manufactures tents and awnings. She's buying raw materials directly from the company that weaves them, employing herself and a couple other machine operators, and creating a product with a value and a market. None of this upline and downline cattle waste. >>>> You're largely correct, thanks to the tool scam. Do you realize you work your way to the top? That's how the business plan is shown. There are plenty of other people outside of MLM that make a living without operating a sewing machine.

We wouldn't make money buying from a 'middle man' distributor in order to set ourselves up as another middle man to resell to yet another group of distributors we had to recruit. We wouldn't buy from a redistributor at all, since they'd charge more and be harder to work with. We need 'right now' delivery, since part of the business model is to minimize stale raw materials by right time deliveries and rapid fabrication to order. >>>> See above.

Compare this to what people do here: moving projuct around till some poor schmuck gets stuck with it and ends up warehousing it in their garage, then finding new schmucks to buy and warehouse product. I've got a neighbor with a garage AND a basement full of inventory with no market and no potential to profit. She keeps hoping that somehow she'll be able to move this load of cattle waste, but if it sells at all it sells poorly because it ends up being marked up again and again as it moves down the line, and it's not neccesarily a better product than anything else out there. Her only option would be to lie to someone gullible and convince them, using all the helpful visual aids provided by the company, that THEY can make money selling this stuff, and move it into someone else's garage.
AYour neighbor is probably breaking the 70% rule. Do her a favor and tell her.

[Tex2]

Actually, there is an important group of economists which DOES consider "paying less" the same as "profit".

For example, they argue that if you buy something at 50% off, you saved 50% -- which mean you made 50% profit -- which you then use to buy it at 50% of the price, which means you got it for free!

They're known as "women". :)If that was what we were talking about, you would have a point. As calculated by Newton, that is a small part of what we're talking about, so you have a very small point.

[Tex2]

I thought they were known as 'wal mart shoppers'. Classic cases of buying something you don't need because it's cheap. I've known lots of people who fell into this fallacy. I've also known business managers who regarded failure to move product at its desired mark up as a loss. If I had the option of moving one unit of product a day at a 100 percent markup or ten units of product a day at a 20 percent markup, I'd choose the latter, even if the 'suggested retail price' was based on the 100 percent markup.

AIn most cases, I would agree with you, you're making twice as much gross profit, at least in the short term.

[oggiesnr]

I am reminded of a very old joke about the son of a work study expert who always walked to school and proudly announced one evening "Daddy, daddy. Instead of just walking to school today I ran behind behind a bus and so I saved a pound I could have spent on a bus fare."

"Very good" said the expert, "but tomorrow run behind a taxi and save five pounds!"

Steve

[Porkchopjim]

Stand by....LOL

You've been saying that for quite some time. That almost sounds like an Amway excuse to me. Of course, Texcuse!

Well, Texie – let’s just look at your resume and give it some sunlight, shall we?

1. On the ‘proven’ 3-5 year plan to financial freedom, after the first 12 years you had no more than 10 people in your group – ever, and with conservative ‘system’ and ‘business’ costs of $3K per year…even you can do the math on that one. Maybe.

2. Sometime in year 12, you ‘discovered’ the ‘tool scam’…about 10-20 years after everyone else did.

3. You drove away your last remaining couple by hounding them with ‘tool scam facts.’ They rightfully tried to flee but you prevented them from doing so. They continued their Amway business with someone else.

4. You bought over 10,000 used tools on e-Bay to begin the “Tex Tool System” – except you don’t have a group. Oh – that also cost you $2K for your used ‘tools’.

5. You wrote a letter to Mr. Amway himself, DeVos, proclaiming that you were going to ‘save Amway’ on his behalf and begging him for support.

6. You wrote some rambling, incoherent statement on an FTC comment board (on an issue that had to do with MLM … but certainly not about ‘tools’) to which you attached your ‘Saving Amway’ letter. Still visible today for anyone interested: just search for ‘kingpin’ on the FTC website.

7. You started spamming websites to tell people the ‘facts’ about the ‘tools scam’…on anti-Amway sites who already know about the ‘tool scam’. When discredited and shown to be incorrect on several aspects of the Amway business – and real business – you blatantly broke forum rules, were banned, and then you threatened lawsuits and other attacks.

8. You proved your mettle coming face to face with sworn enemies in Prague, where you were meek and ineffective. Upon return, you found your courage again and returned to threatening them.

9. Someone else set up a ‘blog’ for you – after 14 years as an internet entrepreneur, you couldn’t do it yourself. It is incoherent and unreadable – a direct reflection of your abilities.

10. You’ve been banned from countless internet sites for breaking the rules and being abusive.

11. You have google alert set up to alert you of any Amway discussion so you can go charging in to ‘expose’ the ‘tool scam’ – already known. You quickly digress to name-calling when you’re shown to be incorrect on any manner of things… which is reflected here.

12. You’ve tried to inject yourself into numerous legal dealings with Amway – promising ‘many valuable facts’ – and those unfortunate enough to pay attention to you (some actual lawyers and government officials) quickly learn that all your ‘facts’ are common, public information and you have nothing to offer. Soon ignored, you consider just that you got some attention a badge of accomplishment.

13. You’ve driven 1,300 miles (round trip) to attend an Amway function with the intent of cornering ‘big-pins’ and getting more ‘facts’ about the ‘tool scam.’ Failed. You attended another function in your area about a month later with the same results. You did, however, complain about the lack of white people there.

14. In keeping with #13, you are quick to toss out racial slurs to include “nappy-headed ho” and “Jew-boy”. You claim your many black friends enjoy you doing that.

15. Being deprived of the power and influence a downline would provide you, you cajole people into ‘conference calls’ which are forums where you get to talk as if you were leading an actual Amway group in the manner of ‘night-owls.’ No one has ever reported those ‘conference calls’ as being anything beneficial or effective.

16. You cannot identify what the original complaint was in the UK Amway matter.

17. You think that you make a profit simply from buying Amway products. You did not know that you have to sell something in order to actually make a profit.

That is extremely impressive! Most folks would call that not even rising to the level of ‘virtually nothing’ and more along the lines of ‘full blown kook-idiot.’

Did I miss anything? You can CLAIM that everything above is incorrect, but it’s not.

Which one of those are you the proudest of? It's a long list of undistinguished efforts, I must say!

Your 'Amway tools' have effectively taught you to fool yourself into thinking you are something you are not. No one else is fooled, though.

So far, I haven't done 'one lie' against you, Texie. You've already been caught trying that Texcuse here.

[Bob Klase]

I've have a great way to get rich. Just get Walmart to establish a price of $10,000 on each item they sell. Then they can put everything on sale at the old (current) prices and you'll have a gross profit of thousands of dollars for every item you buy. Since the only expenses will be gas to and from the store and a few minutes of your time, your net profit should make you a millionaire in just a couple weeks.

[wicked_ways]

Tex2, I have bolded your responses to my post to you.


Hello Tex2,
I guess the question by Icerat (bolded and italicized by me) was misunderstood by me? Thank you for demanding I get a grip.
>>>> You're welcome. LOL


Okay Tex2, you will not address what icerat said about Coca-Cola competing with 7-11. My grip is good enough to get that you and icerat are completely brainwashed by Amway. (Oh! forgot to say -"without the tool scam!")


My analogy about Bigfoot was meant to point out that your customers (downliners) are just as real as Bigfoot. In other words, without proof they do not exist. See?
>>>> I don't need to prove anything to you, you can't even read for comprehension. LOL


No, you certainly don't have to prove anything to me. I can read and comprehend well enough to get the gist of Porkchopjim's recent post. I will take his word for it, okay? :)


How many customers do you have?
>>>> Enough. Even if I told you, how would I "prove" it to you anyway? LOL


That is a good question. I might have just taken your word for it, if not for your many posts here.
Your posts are aggressive, rude and dismissive. If I ever had a doubt that Amway (with or without the tool scam) was a pyramid scheme, you removed that doubt with your postings here.
I don't think you are laughing out loud (LOL) every time you finish one of your awesome quips. I think you are a little hysterical. You sound desperate to prove something, and if Amway was such a good deal, it wouldn't need your frantic postings to help them. Just my opinion. No laughing here Tex2

[NewtonTrino]

A bonus doesn't represent any kind of operating profit. Sure you can call it "gross profit" but that really is a useless measure as it doesn't factor in any expenses other than cogs.

[Tex2]

I am reminded of a very old joke about the son of a work study expert who always walked to school and proudly announced one evening "Daddy, daddy. Instead of just walking to school today I ran behind behind a bus and so I saved a pound I could have spent on a bus fare."

"Very good" said the expert, "but tomorrow run behind a taxi and save five pounds!"

SteveThis is a very poor analogy, as many of the products Amway offers are already purchased by consumers.

[ysabella]

A what? That sounds weird.

I sing in a trio. We regularly get gigs where we just walk around to sing a cappella to crowds - at the racetrack, or in this case it was at the AVMA convention in Seattle.


What, no comments on her experience? This is a very supportive data point. I guess the real question is whether the mascara was worth the cost. Was it?

Pros: went on easily, stayed on well, didn't irritate eyes
Cons: smelled strongly of solvent (not on, just in the container), mail-order only

I'm on the it's-not-quite-worth-it side, but that's for me, personally. I will go on and try some other brand when I need the next one.

But since the discussion going on when we talked about mascara was whether Amway's products were awful, I do want to point out that it's perfectly fine mascara, and not awful.

[Tex2]

I've have a great way to get rich. Just get Walmart to establish a price of $10,000 on each item they sell. Then they can put everything on sale at the old (current) prices and you'll have a gross profit of thousands of dollars for every item you buy. Since the only expenses will be gas to and from the store and a few minutes of your time, your net profit should make you a millionaire in just a couple weeks.Great idea Bob. Let us know how it works out for you by early September. LOL

[Tex2]

Tex2, I have bolded your responses to my post to you.





Okay Tex2, you will not address what icerat said about Coca-Cola competing with 7-11. My grip is good enough to get that you and icerat are completely brainwashed by Amway. (Oh! forgot to say -"without the tool scam!") >>>> Do YOU think Coke is competing with 7-11? LOL





No, you certainly don't have to prove anything to me. I can read and comprehend well enough to get the gist of Porkchopjim's recent post. I will take his word for it, okay? :) >>>> You are free to believe whatever trash you choose to believe, it doesn't matter to me. LOL





That is a good question. I might have just taken your word for it, if not for your many posts here. >>>> I know the drill, you have already made up your mind. LOL
Your posts are aggressive, rude and dismissive. If I ever had a doubt that Amway (with or without the tool scam) was a pyramid scheme, you removed that doubt with your postings here. >>>> How does being aggrressive, rude or dismissive mean something is a pyramid scheme? LOL
I don't think you are laughing out loud (LOL) every time you finish one of your awesome quips. I think you are a little hysterical. You sound desperate to prove something, and if Amway was such a good deal, it wouldn't need your frantic postings to help them. Just my opinion. No laughing here Tex2I do laugh out loud, you guys are hilariously clueless. LOL I'm not here to promote Amway as a good deal, you have a loss of big picture accident. LOL

[Tex2]

A bonus doesn't represent any kind of operating profit. Sure you can call it "gross profit" but that really is a useless measure as it doesn't factor in any expenses other than cogs.It's not a useless measure, but it is one very important piece of a puzzle that needs to have more pieces to see the entire picture. I never tried calling gross profit operating profit, I called it gross profit. LOL

[Tex2]

I sing in a trio. We regularly get gigs where we just walk around to sing a cappella to crowds - at the racetrack, or in this case it was at the AVMA convention in Seattle. >>>> I had no idea what it was, but assumed it was a "stress test" for the mascara.




Pros: went on easily, stayed on well, didn't irritate eyes
Cons: smelled strongly of solvent (not on, just in the container), mail-order only >>>> I don't wear mascara, but don't think I would sniff the container if I did. LOL

I'm on the it's-not-quite-worth-it side, but that's for me, personally. I will go on and try some other brand when I need the next one. >>>> Did you buy it at IBO cost or retail cost? Did you pay for shipping?

But since the discussion going on when we talked about mascara was whether Amway's products were awful, I do want to point out that it's perfectly fine mascara, and not awful.Oh yes, the original discussion. Now we have 2 products, the mascara and water filter, that appear to be very good values. Any of you who allow "poor quality", "crap", "bad" etc., product comments to be posted here are being intellectually dishonest in not pushing back.

[NewtonTrino]

I personally do not like the products. I can't judge makeup but makeup is an industry rife with woo and overpriced image based product. Same with vitamins and supplements.

[Tex2]

I personally do not like the products. I can't judge makeup but makeup is an industry rife with woo and overpriced image based product. Same with vitamins and supplements.Who cares whether you like the products? You just read a neutral judgment of the mascara, just admit it was a very positive quality rating. You have also been given a water filter "Best Buy" review from a major consumer company. The vitamins have been around for about 70 YEARS, and it took until only a few years ago for the AMA to agree vitamin supplements and other supplements, such as the Omega-3 fish oil, are good for you. You are clueless. LOL

[Almo]

Who cares whether you like the products? You just read a neutral judgment of the mascara, just admit it was a very positive quality rating.

She said it was good, but not worth the hassle of the ordering method. Which in my mind means it's good, but not amazing or she'd want more of it.

I personally never said Amway products were bad. I said they were overpriced in order to feed the weight of the upline.

Pyramid.

[NewtonTrino]

Looks among the number of products they produce I'm sure some of them are good.

Comparing makeup is pretty hard IMHO and makeup and vitamins are both areas that have a ton of overpriced margin built in.

I'm defintely not a fan of any of the soap products.

And they are definitely overpriced.

All my opinion. I think the sales to NON IBO's show how popular the products are. Which is to say NOT popular with people who aren't IBO's. Whether that's the ordering method, quality, price or whatever.

[Tex2]

She said it was good, but not worth the hassle of the ordering method. Which in my mind means it's good, but not amazing or she'd want more of it. >>>> Does she realize mascara is supposed to be changed out periodically, I think it's every 3 months, whether it is used up or not, in order to prevent growth of viruses/bacteria that can cause eye damage? An auto shipment would eliminate the need for any hassle. Get a clue.

I personally never said Amway products were bad. I said they were overpriced in order to feed the weight of the upline.

Pyramid.You aren't aware of the recent price reductions, either. There is also strong rumors there are even more drastic price cuts to come. You're operating on old information. Get a grip. The upline makes FAR more from the tool scam, you're concentrating on the wrong problem. Get some facts and process them, if you can! LOL

[Tex2]

Looks among the number of products they produce I'm sure some of them are good. >>>> And you're 0 for 2 so far. Keep swinging, but I suggest you take off your blindfold next time. LOL

Comparing makeup is pretty hard IMHO and makeup and vitamins are both areas that have a ton of overpriced margin built in. >>>> Makeup is best compared by the actual users, and we have a very strong and positive opinion from her. ALL products have a ton of margin built in. What planet are you from? LOL

I'm defintely not a fan of any of the soap products. >>>> As if we should care about your opinion.

And they are definitely overpriced. >>>> See price comparisons on qblog, recent price reductions, and stand by for more. You don't have a clue! LOL

All my opinion. I think the sales to NON IBO's show how popular the products are. Which is to say NOT popular with people who aren't IBO's. Whether that's the ordering method, quality, price or whatever.Sales to non-IBOs show how much emphasis the LCKs place on selling Amway products to customers versus teaching the downline to spend their time and money on the tool scam instead. CLUELESS. LOL

[Skeptic]

The problem with the Amway "tools" is not merely that they're overpriced, it's that they are totally worthless -- being not much more than "keep doing what you're doing" or "only losers quit Amway" brainwashing or trivial "positive thinking" palaver.

Tex, apparently, is trying to sell them at what he considers to be a fair price, significantly lower than the ridiculous prices the "diamonds" & co. charge for them. That's certainly more honest, but the problem is, why would anybody want that worthless crap at any price?

No wonder Tex is stuck with them.

[Tex2]

The problem with the Amway "tools" is not merely that they're overpriced, it's that they are totally worthless -- being not much more than "keep doing what you're doing" or "only losers quit Amway" brainwashing or trivial "positive thinking" palaver. >>>> WRONG. If that was the only content on the tools, you would be right. It isn't, and you aren't. LOL

Tex, apparently, is trying to sell them at what he considers to be a fair price, significantly lower than the ridiculous prices the "diamonds" & co. charge for them. That's certainly more honest, but the problem is, why would anybody want that worthless crap at any price? >>>> WRONG AGAIN. I don't sell them at ANY price. I operate a "library" concept.

No wonder Tex is stuck with them.No wonder you're clueless, you have no facts being put to use. LOL

[CynicalSkeptic]

Tex2, why the LOL on every post?

From the book at this link (http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/DOWNLOADBOOK.html).
I felt incredibly blessed to have someone this successful mentor me. Success was inevitable. No one was willing to work as hard as I would work! I was coached to laugh at people who told me this business did not work. Such critical people usually slaved away for an oppressive boss who controlled both their time and income. What morons! My entire perspective and fundamental beliefs had begun to change dramatically. Patty and I were thankful for having been enlightened and rescued from a lifetime of employment slavery. We were going to become wealthy and spend all day and every day together.

[Tex2]

Tex2, why the LOL on every post?

From the book at this link (http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/DOWNLOADBOOK.html).I probably know Eric better than you. I have talked with him on the phone several times. LOL

I LOL because you go off looking up laughing up "LOL" like a little puppet. LOL

Perhaps everyone who laughs at comedians are in a cult as well...LOL

[Porkchopjim]

Wow! It takes a special sort of Texie delusion to spend all that time confirming my assertions and then claim I'm a liar!

I know you're not smart enough realize that's what you did, but to bolster your standing as dim-witted, we have you provide to us:

You can not tell, in a simply written UK ruling, what the main complaint about 'tools' was. You can't even state what one primary complaint was.

You continue to confuse 'buying' with 'selling' and lump them together as one thing...which has provided you with your 'profit' confusion to date.

It's also refreshing to see you still lurk at Insider's site because you're not smart enough to find that information yourself.

Also, you were nice enough to confirm that you've blown at least $38K chasing the Amway dream and that you have no group. All things I knew, but I like to see you admit them every once in a while.

Seeing as the 'Directly Speaking' tapes were made in 1983, it's pretty clear that the 'tool scam' was known for more than 20 years. It's also pretty clear that DeVos didn't discover it himself. You did, of course, 22 years after 'Directly Speaking.' LOL!

In consideration for the other poor beings here that you've subjected your cult stupidity to, I'll provide direct quotes, not out of context, from your DeVos letter about 'saving Amway' and 'begging' on the FTC website:

Saving Amway:

“That is our gift to you, hope that this reform will wash over the business and clean it up while you are alive.”
Begging:

Begging:

“We are not looking for a ‘handout’, but whatever support you feel is appropriate would be welcomed.”

Obviously you wrote a letter to DeVos just to say 'hi' and not to tell him you were saving Amway and looking for support! LOL!


At least you're only wasting people's time here and not doing anything of consequence.

[Almo]

The upline makes FAR more from the tool scam,

This does not prevent MLM from making the markup on products too high to sell to people outside the pyramid.

[Tex2]

This does not prevent MLM from making the markup on products too high to sell to people outside the pyramid.I didn't say it did. In fact, I've said several times the tool scam allowed Amway to become lazy on product pricing.

[Almo]

I didn't say it did. In fact, I've said several times the tool scam allowed Amway to become lazy on product pricing.

You said I'm concentrating on the wrong problem. I'm not. MLM is the problem.

[Tex2]

You said I'm concentrating on the wrong problem. I'm not. MLM is the problem.Good luck overturning the FTC's decision that MLM is a legitimate business model. I'll bet you enjoy pissing into the wind, too, don't you? LOL