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Tex2
28th August 2009, 11:52 AM
I forgot you don't read other people's posts. If you had, you'd have noticed that the NEXT THREE POSTS after the one you loved were all negative. Try not to get too much reality on you...I know it doesn't agree with you. >>>> Just because the followup posts were negative doesn't mean they had much to say about him being wrong. Try not to get too much reality on you...I know it doesn't agree with you. LOL

Along those lines, who cares what your current re-write of history is regarding your ‘nappy-headed-ho’ comment is? >>>> You can't even prove I used that term, let alone the context of it. LOL

It keeps changing, and every time it does, you end up changing it AGAIN. First, it was to make ‘all your black friends’ laugh. When asked if ‘all your black friends’ were as imaginary as your Amway ‘group’ – you replied that as part of cutting edge social commentary, you – a 50+ year old white failed Amway salesman from Texas – would go out with ‘all your black friends’ and call them racial slurs in public just to see people’s reactions. >>>> See, you STILL don't understand why I said those things, and that was YEARS ago. LOL

Well, that got called out – again – and months afterwards your story has morphed into “I did it to call attention to how people are stuck on labels.” Right. >>>> Really? Where did I say that? LOL

Don’t let the fact that you whipped out ‘Jew-Boy’ – with another fabricated ‘justification’ – to show just how socially conscious you really are. >>>> Which one was this? Can't you source ANYTHING you claim against me? LOL

Now – back to what Tex doesn’t know (besides that products have to be SOLD to someone other than yourself to make a profit): >>>> Which has been proven FALSE on several occasions. LOL

contrary to your ‘severed head’ attempt at dodging the question …which the judge even EXPLICITLY said that there was no ‘severed head’ as you like to pretend UK Amway Judgement (http://http://www.amquix.info/pdfs/UK/UK_Amway_Judgment.pdf) (re: para. 50)… >>>> The paragraph you refer to says, "50. Nor has this case been (as it might have been) about the volume of BSM produced by Amway or by the organisations (like Britt and Network 21) formed by its senior IBOs and profitably peddled to a captive audience of nonachieving IBOs. Mr Cunningham QC did not open the case in that way and it is not the case which Mr Chivers QC has had to meet at trial." In other words, the prosecution was incompetent, as the judge was obviously sympathetic to the tool scam issue, but couldn't delve too far into the matter because the prosecution was so intent to shut down Amway on other grounds they neglected this major issue, and a judge can't add to the charges the prosecution brings to them. In fact, I've talked with Eric Scheibeler, who would have brought out the tool scam issue in detail at the trial, but he was invited to the trial at the last second and could not attend. It is noteworthy that:

1. Amway shut down the tool scam as part of the initial response,
2. The lawsuit was also originally brought against N21 and BWW, but these organizations were dropped and properly put under the Amway "umbrella."
3. When Jimbo "dumbass" Dornan wrote a letter blaming Amway for all of the problems, Amway slammed him, so he withdrew the letter and issued another one.
4. The judge made permanent the requirement for the tool scam to remain shut down.

What was the UK complaint against the ‘tools’ ? >>>> It matters little what the original complaint was, it matters what the final resolution was. The final resolution is the UK tool scam is dead. LOL

You’ve had over a year to get someone to read that to you. >>>> I read and commented on that paragraph a long time ago. LOL

Insider, whose word you seem to take for gospel now, has even painstakingly explained it to you. >>>> I don't take his word for gospel, I agree with him when he has the facts and against him when he doesn't. He didn't explain anything, he did his usual twist/distort exercise, similar to what you do. LOL

This is a pretty important blind spot you need to get over, once we cure you of that nasty habit of trying to rewrite history. >>>> It's not at all a blind spot of mine, just yours. LOL

Also, I don't need to rewrite history, you do! LOL

Your family being one that comes to mind....>>>> Your mind is already damaged! LOL

NewtonTrino
28th August 2009, 12:13 PM
Why do you continue to insist on creating completely incoherent posts? This is getting ridiculous.

Tex2
28th August 2009, 12:23 PM
Why do you continue to insist on creating completely incoherent posts? This is getting ridiculous.Why do you continue to insist on creating completely incoherent posts? This is getting ridiculous. LOL

P.S., I thought you were ignoring them! LOL

NewtonTrino
28th August 2009, 12:42 PM
I don't have you on ignore yet, I just don't read them.

Did I mention I got a bonus check today from work? I'll tell you what mine is if you tell me what your last bonus check looked like ;)

Tex2
28th August 2009, 01:04 PM
I don't have you on ignore yet, I just don't read them. >>>> Then how do you know whether they are incoherent? LOL

Did I mention I got a bonus check today from work? >>>> No, you didn't.

I'll tell you what mine is if you tell me what your last bonus check looked like ;) >>>> Obviously you don't read for comprehension, I already addressed this above. LOL

NewtonTrino
28th August 2009, 01:08 PM
I told you I'm not reading the incoherent stuff you call posts. So post again instead of wasting time.

Tex2
28th August 2009, 01:13 PM
I told you I'm not reading the incoherent stuff you call posts. So post again instead of wasting time.I told you I'm not reposting my brilliant posts you call incoherent stuff. So read again instead of wasting my time. LOL

NewtonTrino
28th August 2009, 04:27 PM
So how much was your last bonus check Tex?

Tex2
28th August 2009, 04:38 PM
So how much was your last bonus check Tex?You really haven't been reading, have you? LOL

NewtonTrino
28th August 2009, 04:39 PM
No, I told you I don't read the incoherent stuff. It's a very simple answer why the reticence?

Tex2
28th August 2009, 04:59 PM
No, I told you I don't read the incoherent stuff. It's a very simple answer why the reticence?No, I told you I don't repeat myself. It was a very simple answer, why the reticence to read it? LOL

Vermonter
28th August 2009, 06:53 PM
The schoolyard antics, while amusing, only serve to show anyone who reads this thread how insane these arguements are. Come on, parroting back words?

Tricky
28th August 2009, 07:18 PM
This thread has been generating too many reports. I am switching it to moderated status. Expect a delay before your post appear here. If your posts are uncivil or violate any of the forum rules, they won't appear at all. If you all play nice, we may take it off moderated status. Okay?

NewtonTrino
28th August 2009, 08:45 PM
Thank you, I think this will somewhat improve the thread.

Secondly I think we are going in circles. Tex has a theory that the tools business is causing the "regular" business to not be as profitable. I think the theory is that because you are forcing tools down peoples throat they waste time and money on that.

However, I'm not sure how that implies that the "regular" business is actually a profitable or useful enterprise. So my challenge to Tex is to show us the business plan without the tools. Show us how much money we will make at the different pin levels (in PROFIT including expenses!) and how much work it is to maintain that.

Now I'm sure he won't supply this information because he can't (having not had that level of success). However I think this is a perfectly fair way to approach this. After all he's the one saying that this is a great business (same goes for Icerat).

Almo
28th August 2009, 09:53 PM
Right, so there's this ad on TV for Amway/Quixtar.

They said how they helped over 3 million people run their own business, with revenue over $6 billion.

Wait... isn't that income of $2000 per person? Maybe they mean current revenue is $6 billion and 3 million people have previously been involved. That could mean 2 million have quit, but 1 million are still in. Wait... isn't that still only $6000 per person?

Either loads of people have quit, or the people on average don't really make much money. Both ways make it sound like not such a good deal.

Ok, Tricky hit the reset button. Under moderated status, I'd like to see a reply to the OP. Icerat tried a long time ago, but I can't say I was satisfied with the answer.

I can't see how to make these numbers work without making Amway look bad. I can only imagine that the people who made the ad are counting on the audience not really thinking about what it says.

Tex2
29th August 2009, 08:56 AM
I am replying to these posts here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/amway-approved-blog-words.html

Porkchopjim
29th August 2009, 10:44 AM
I can't see how to make these numbers work without making Amway look bad. I can only imagine that the people who made the ad are counting on the audience not really thinking about what it says.

They're mixing numbers to their advantage:

Amway has roughly 3M people signed up as 'business owners' at any given time. As Icerat says, about 2/3 of those don't do anything except sign up. So that's about 1M either buying or buying and selling products.

Amway's revenue used to be about $8B – that's Amway's sales both through IBOs and some portion of revenue that I never got a full understanding of...they manufacture for others, or sell by means other than through IBOs (and this was before Amway stores, too...but that's not important). $6B through IBOs is close enough.

So : “Amway is a solid and successful company” = $6B revenue.
“Lots of folks think it's a good idea" = 3M business owners.

Your math is correct: 3M 'business owners' buying $2K a year each of Amway products = $6B for Amway. Nothing in there says anything about how much the 'business owner' actually makes...


'Serious' IBOs buy about $4-$5K of Amway products each year. That's because in order to get your 'rebate' check, you have to buy roughly $300 per month. Also, you need to 'set the example' for your recruits so they'll buy $300 per month also...which adds to your 'volume' and is how profit is generated for sales to 'business owners' below you.

Take 1M IBOs 'doing' something...have them buy $4-$5K (at a minimum) each year...magic math: you're looking at $5B. Close enough to account for Amway's total business, as advertised!

Do not, for a minute, think that these “Amway Ads” are to educate the general public about “Amway” and the 'business opportunity.' They are purely damage control: IBOs leave by the millions each year. Uplines pull their IBOs – who are above and beyond the largest customers and consumers of Amway products – to other sketchy MLM deals all the time.

Amway is trying to do retention of the customers (IBOs) it has now. The UK scared the junk out of Amway. If they had lost that market and got kicked out, it wouldn't be more than seconds before someone started to REALLY look at them here. That can not happen.

So – the numbers do NOT show Amway to be that great of a business...but the target audience – IBOs – already think it's a winner, and as you've seen, numbers don't mean that much to them. It's to make them feel good and stick around.

NewtonTrino
29th August 2009, 04:08 PM
I think one of the takeaways from these low numbers it that the vast majority of product is just the self use of the distributor force. Unfortunately this has the effect of turning amway into a straight up pyramid scheme. Add in the "tools" business and you end up with another pyramid inside the "legit" one. Add in the cult tactics and brainwashing and well.... you get the picture.

Rasmus
30th August 2009, 09:09 AM
"If you do the work the money will follow" is the mantra. >>>> Yes, it is the mantra with most businesses, except most businesses don't have a tool scam. LOL

No, that is not how businesses work like. Yes, you do have to do the work, but that doesn't guarantee you that the money will follow. Far from it, in fact.

Businesses - all of them - depend on many other factors than just your ability or willingness to work for their success. Even if you stretch that by quite a bit, even insane or outright impossible amounts of work will not guarantee success.

Almo
30th August 2009, 10:01 AM
I am replying to these posts here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/amway-approved-blog-words.html

If you're going to sidestep this forum's moderation by answering outside it, I'm not going to respond to any further posts from you. It's not against the rules for you to do so, but I find it underhanded.

NewtonTrino
30th August 2009, 11:24 AM
The reason that amway salesmen think this way is so that they never give up. If they don't succeed it's because they aren't working hard enough (e.g. buying enough tools!). Maybe if they worked equally hard at something legit they would get somewhere...

anduin
30th August 2009, 05:51 PM
Quick reply to Tex2 about patents. You can get a patent for anything nowadays with little effort, all you need is a clever patent attorney.

As to inefficiency in distribution, just by saying that traditional businesses are inefficient as well does not erase the fact that Amway is inefficient. Traditional retailers prefer fewer intermediaries because it reduces costs for both the seller and the customer. The more intermediaries there are, the higher the price will be, this is simple economics. I'm sorry but a system with 4 or 5 intermediaries at a national level is bloated and inefficient. Even with international trade you tend to try to minimise distribution. You have the manufacturer, the exporter, the importer, and the local distributions.

Rasmus
31st August 2009, 02:14 PM
Quick reply to Tex2 about patents. You can get a patent for anything nowadays with little effort, all you need is a clever patent attorney.

As to inefficiency in distribution, just by saying that traditional businesses are inefficient as well does not erase the fact that Amway is inefficient. Traditional retailers prefer fewer intermediaries because it reduces costs for both the seller and the customer. The more intermediaries there are, the higher the price will be, this is simple economics. I'm sorry but a system with 4 or 5 intermediaries at a national level is bloated and inefficient. Even with international trade you tend to try to minimise distribution. You have the manufacturer, the exporter, the importer, and the local distributions.

The few cases I've dealt with have eliminated one step in that chain: The producer exports to a general importer (who often distributes directly as well as to other distributors.)

Of course that happens for specilty items - as soon as a local market is big enough one would start to produce locally.

NewtonTrino
31st August 2009, 08:42 PM
Ok, here's one for ya. One of the phony baloney reasons people get in amway is that people tell them it's the easiest way to start a business and that it doesn't require much or any investment of money.

This is simply a strawman argument where they are building up some other theoretical business or god forbid "J.O.B." (just over broke etc.). I agree being a business owner is a better way to make money than being an employee. And here's the good part, it's not that hard to start any kind of business!

Here is a gameplan for starting a business that will work for a multitude of industries:

1) Figure out what industry you want to be in. This might be influenced by your current skillset or by an industry you think you can be successful in. For the love of god choose something profitable.

2) Get educated about that industry and get a job in that industry. Work at a firm or possibly several over a period long enough to really understand the business and make some contacts. Live cheap and save your money for step 3.

3) Quit your job and start your own shop. Use the money you saved up during phase 2 working in that industry. If you are starting a bigger business this is when you really work at getting funded. If it's a small business your savings should be enough to get the business going. I recommend staying away from VC on your first company btw.

4) If at any time the business from #3 goes broke or is sold then you rinse and repeat. Sometimes taking a job between starting up companies can be nice downtime (consulting is great at this time as well). Remember, if you took a business into the ground that it was a great learning experience and try to fix your problem next time. I'm currently on my 3rd business that involved more than one person. 2/3 ain't a bad success ratio.

Now people are going to bring up all kinds of bogus objections. For example businesses with high capital costs are only going to be possible when funded through VC's or angels. To me using the money you've saved to put together a VC pitch is probably not the way to go. I suggest finding an industry with lower capital requirements for your first business.

Which brings us back to why amway uses lower investment as part of the pitch. Just remember that time is equal to money. With the "3-5" year plan (which is a completely lie just read this thread) you could save up enough money to open a reasonable sized retail establishment if nothing else. If someone is committed enough to working hard in amway for 3-5 there are a lot of other ways they could also make bank. Investing your mcdonalds wages would slay the avg. amway business....

Skeptic
1st September 2009, 06:24 AM
The Amway folks for some reason fell in love with the fact that they "own a business" so much that they completely ignore that the point of a business is not to "be a business owner", but to make money.

If you're losing money, as the vast majority of them are, there's no point owning the business. In fact, you'd be better off without it. I might as well throw $100 out the window every day and claim I own a "capital aerial dispersal business".

I mean, what's the point?

Skeptic
1st September 2009, 06:26 AM
Amway people for some reason fall in love with the fact that they "own a business". They forget that the point of "owning a business" is to make money, and if you are losing money, as they are, there is no point to the "business ownership".

I might as well throw $100 out the window every day and feel good about owning a "capital aero-distribution business". I mean, what's the point?

Porkchopjim
3rd September 2009, 10:45 AM
Amway people for some reason fall in love with the fact that they "own a business". They forget that the point of "owning a business" is to make money, and if you are losing money, as they are, there is no point to the "business ownership".

The 'for some reason' is that it is not a 'business' so much as a cult.

The tapes/CDs/meetings/conferences/rallies that they spend so much money on - because they are told these things are 'extremely helpful' to building a large Amway business - reinforce the 'hang in there' / 'buy your own products' / 'we were in your shoes once scraping money together to make it to the big meeting but, as you can see, it was worth it because we are on stage preaching the greatness that you some day will have...'

There is a very deliberate thought change/control that goes on. Every new IBO that shows up someplace has the exact same scripted answers to justify the money they've lost and the time wasted chasing the dream of selling soap and vitamins from the beach.

icerat
3rd September 2009, 03:03 PM
In the interest of fairness, I don't really remember Icerat saying that. Maybe I missed it; it's certainly a long thread. :)

This was from a few days back. I never said, nor believe, that Amway is "the only answer" to anything. Neither have I heard it from anyone I associate with in Amway. Indeed most of things that Newton Trino claimed are "normal" for IBO groups I've never encountered in my time in Amway with the largest single group in the world. As I've pointed out ad nauseum, despite his denials, Newton Trino has experience with just one group. He claims it is with "multiple lines of sponsorship", but technically every single IBO is a "line of sponsorship" in itself. All of the groups NT has experience with associated with each other (originally at least) often having seminars together and training materials produced out of the same place by the same people. It would be like him having experience say with Sunni Islam and claiming because it included experience with sub-groups like Wahhabism that he could preclaim all religions throughout the world operated exactly the same way, and offering as "proof" the fact they regularly have meetings, believe in a god(s), and have some holy texts. Wahhabism and Hari Krishna's might have some similarities, but few would think they're the same.

Ok, Tricky hit the reset button. Under moderated status, I'd like to see a reply to the OP. Icerat tried a long time ago, but I can't say I was satisfied with the answer.

I can't see how to make these numbers work without making Amway look bad. I can only imagine that the people who made the ad are counting on the audience not really thinking about what it says.

Well, the very fact your commentating on it shows it wasn't the smartest marketing. Really it comes down to what question are you trying to answer, and can a simple average say anything meaningful? I can make it make Amway look very good.

Let's try one way of looking at it. Alticor sales were $8.2billion. About 100million of that were revenues from outside Amway (not 2 billion as PCJ suggests). 3 million "business owners". Doing the original "math" of a simple divide (with $8.1billion) that's $2700/yr revenues per person.

Is that good or bad? Well, China is Amway's biggest market, and according to a recent Forbes article on Amway China - "to the National Statistics Bureau, the average annual corporate income (in China) is about $5,100."

So one could say the average Amway China IBO has revenues more than half the size of the average Chinese Corporation! Not bad for a part-time business.

Except that wouldn't be true. Amway incomes in China are almost certainly lower than Amway incomes in say, the US. But they're all piled into those 2 numbers.

Then there's all the other factors. The "3 million" figure is a count of everyone who renewed at the end of 2008. It includes people who are IBOs purely to get wholesale pricing. According to data revealed in Team vs Quixtar, in the US only 12.9% of IBOs earn a bonus on downline volume - yet 50% order products (half never even do that!). That means, assuming everyone who was just shopping earned a bonus back on their own shopping, that 74% of IBOs who earned a bonus did so purely as a shopping rebate. That's a pretty big majority, so why not consider that to be the "average" IBO?

What's the "average" income in the US? $115/mth. $115/mth on a shopping rebate is pretty good don't you think! Especially since the average monthly purchase by IBOs in the US is ... $114!! (38PV)

Looks pretty good from that perspective - on average, everyone who joins Amway and buys stuff gets all their stuff for free!

Lies, damn lies, and statistics huh? :cool:

The reality is that the data given in the commerical tells you nothing other than that the folk who wrote the commercial didn't think about how people like you would interpret it!

It's waaayyyy too homogeneous a group to be able to say anything much at all statistically, and attempting to do so simply results in ridiculously long and uninformative threads like this one.

icerat
3rd September 2009, 04:22 PM
correction - average monthly purchase was $104, not $115. So, Amway IBOs get all their products free plus extra cash! (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-ibos-get-all-their-products-free-plus-extra-cash/)

NewtonTrino
3rd September 2009, 06:59 PM
This was from a few days back. I never said, nor believe, that Amway is "the only answer" to anything. Neither have I heard it from anyone I associate with in Amway. Indeed most of things that Newton Trino claimed are "normal" for IBO groups I've never encountered in my time in Amway with the largest single group in the world. As I've pointed out ad nauseum, despite his denials, Newton Trino has experience with just one group. He claims it is with "multiple lines of sponsorship", but technically every single IBO is a "line of sponsorship" in itself. All of the groups NT has experience with associated with each other (originally at least) often having seminars together and training materials produced out of the same place by the same people. It would be like him having experience say with Sunni Islam and claiming because it included experience with sub-groups like Wahhabism that he could preclaim all religions throughout the world operated exactly the same way, and offering as "proof" the fact they regularly have meetings, believe in a god(s), and have some holy texts. Wahhabism and Hari Krishna's might have some similarities, but few would think they're the same.



All of the groups are cut from the same cloth. The differences are a result of natural selection as they evolved over time from the original groups that used these techniques (yager, britt I keep hearing were among the very first). So some of them push different angles like more or less religion or more of less emphasis on retailing. They *ALL* require a substantial amount of money to be spent on tools and meetings. That has already been clearly established in this thread.

As for the rest of your post thank you for the lesson in manipulation. Why doesn't amway just release the stats with more detail so people can make their own judgements?

icerat
4th September 2009, 06:52 AM
All of the groups are cut from the same cloth. The differences are a result of natural selection as they evolved over time from the original groups that used these techniques (yager, britt I keep hearing were among the very first).

You again completely ignore the reality that the vast majority of Amway is not connected in any way to Britt/Yager.

So some of them push different angles like more or less religion or more of less emphasis on retailing. They *ALL* require a substantial amount of money to be spent on tools and meetings. That has already been clearly established in this thread.

And Hari Krishna's believe in god(s) so therefore they are just like Osama Bin Ladin :rolleyes:

The "systems" are educational and motivational training organisations. Can you name a single similar organisation of any variety in the world that doesn't use things like books and meetings? Sales guru Todd Duncan reports in his book Killing the Sale (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785263225?ie=UTF8&tag=thetruaboamw-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0785263225) -

Our company's average client spends approximately $5,000 each year on products and events in order to become a better, more enthusiastic salesperson

Audio & video, books, and meetings are NORMAL in the sales industry. Heck, they're normal teaching methods in most industries! Furthermore, contrary to your claims, NO Amway affiliated system "requires" any amount to be spent on anything - well, no more than being considered a customer of McDonald's requires you to actually buy something from McDonald's. By far the majority of people who register with Amway don't spend a cent on "tools and meetings".

So how you can claim the exact opposite has "been made clear on this thread" is beyond me.

As for the rest of your post thank you for the lesson in manipulation. Why doesn't amway just release the stats with more detail so people can make their own judgements?

It doesn't matter what stats were released, they'd be twisted. The stats that are published isn't because they mean anything, but because the FTC required Amway to publish them 30 years ago. Publishing anything else opens a whole can of worms (see Income and Earnings Representations (http://www.mlmstartup.com/articles/incmreps.htm) for a good discussion on the issue). Amway (unlike some companies) does things by the book, and as you can see in that article, if they went outside just publishing the FTC mandated stats they'd probably have to provide different statistics for different states, some of which would require an inordinate amount of work and constant updating to avoid potential legal problems.

Whether Amway is a good business for someone doesn't really depend on stats like this anyway. What matters is their goals, their drive, and their circumstances, whether there's real products with a real market, and whether there's enough profit available to make it viable.

If there is, then there's a business opportunity. Pretty simple really.

NewtonTrino
4th September 2009, 08:56 AM
You again completely ignore the reality that the vast majority of Amway is not connected in any way to Britt/Yager.


This is simply a straight out lie. Britt/Yager came first and the other systems learned how to do it from them. I explained it above. It's simple natural selection. I'm not claiming that all systems funnel money back to dexter, just that he was one of the first to get this idea. This isn't hard to understand.


And Hari Krishna's believe in god(s) so therefore they are just like Osama Bin Ladin :rolleyes:


They do have some qualities in common, namely they are both delusional. Just like all amway groups have something in common, they all require large outlays of cash for ripoff cult materials that they pass off as training materials.


The "systems" are educational and motivational training organisations. Can you name a single similar organisation of any variety in the world that doesn't use things like books and meetings? Sales guru Todd Duncan reports in his book Killing the Sale (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785263225?ie=UTF8&tag=thetruaboamw-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0785263225) -

Our company's average client spends approximately $5,000 each year on products and events in order to become a better, more enthusiastic salesperson

Audio & video, books, and meetings are NORMAL in the sales industry. Heck, they're normal teaching methods in most industries! Furthermore, contrary to your claims, NO Amway affiliated system "requires" any amount to be spent on anything - well, no more than being considered a customer of McDonald's requires you to actually buy something from McDonald's. By far the majority of people who register with Amway don't spend a cent on "tools and meetings".

So how you can claim the exact opposite has "been made clear on this thread" is beyond me.


Some amount of sales training is normal. Many people like to listen to guys like Tony Robbins to get motivated. Characterizing amway tapes as some sort of "super tony robbins" is simply a lie. The quantity of them is unheard of outside of MLM. I wish we could post transcripts...

It's also a lie to say that these are optional. Your upline will simply not spend any time with you unless you buy these materials. Yes many people get in and do absolutely nothing... but for those that consider themselves active builders not being on regular tools purchases is simply not an option.

I'm honestly aghast at the level of spin you are trying to apply. You can't fool me I've seen it with my own eyes.


It doesn't matter what stats were released, they'd be twisted. The stats that are published isn't because they mean anything, but because the FTC required Amway to publish them 30 years ago. Publishing anything else opens a whole can of worms (see Income and Earnings Representations (http://www.mlmstartup.com/articles/incmreps.htm) for a good discussion on the issue). Amway (unlike some companies) does things by the book, and as you can see in that article, if they went outside just publishing the FTC mandated stats they'd probably have to provide different statistics for different states, some of which would require an inordinate amount of work and constant updating to avoid potential legal problems.

Whether Amway is a good business for someone doesn't really depend on stats like this anyway. What matters is their goals, their drive, and their circumstances, whether there's real products with a real market, and whether there's enough profit available to make it viable.

If there is, then there's a business opportunity. Pretty simple really.


The stats wouldn't be "twisted". They don't NEED to be twisted to show how crap amway is as an opportunity. Bottom line, they don't release them when ETHICALLY they should. What are they hiding?

Also icerat, again I'm going to say that you simply aren't high enough in amway to have authority to speak about how great it is. Come back when you have a decent sized business and tell us how it really works. Show us some numbers from a real successful business. I'm not holding my breath...

Porkchopjim
4th September 2009, 11:15 AM
What's the "average" income in the US? $115/mth. $115/mth on a shopping rebate is pretty good don't you think! Especially since the average monthly purchase by IBOs in the US is ... $114!! (38PV)


Don't forget that the largest benefit you get as an IBO is that given the dismal amount of products that are sold and consumed by people who aren't IBOs - you, as a valued business owner, get your products at the same price OR WORSE than 95% of the people who buy Amway products.

Man, that's a HECK of a deal!

icerat
4th September 2009, 11:56 AM
This is simply a straight out lie. Britt/Yager came first and the other systems learned how to do it from them. I explained it above. It's simple natural selection. I'm not claiming that all systems funnel money back to dexter, just that he was one of the first to get this idea. This isn't hard to understand.

Britt/yager came first with what? DeVos & Van Andel were producing 8-track tapes for their groups long before B/Y. Heck, they got active in Nutrilite after attending a major seminar. And they were all recommending various books. The "commonality" of tapes,books, and meetings you think make all systems the same existed before B/Y even joined Amway.

Some amount of sales training is normal.And even the average "system" IBO spends less than the average sales person outside "the system". When you look at network marketers that do not have dedicated systems like have sprung up with Amway, their costs are higher. (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/network-21-vs-the-competition-a-price-comparison/)

Many people like to listen to guys like Tony Robbins to get motivated. Characterizing amway tapes as some sort of "super tony robbins" is simply a lie.The lie is what's just occured - namely your claim that anyone characterizes "amway tapes" in that manner. I certainly don't.

The quantity of them is unheard of outside of MLM. I wish we could post transcripts...Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

It's also a lie to say that these are optional. Your upline will simply not spend any time with you unless you buy these materials.Again, it's you that are the one that is lying. First by the claim they're made "non-optional" by somebody not helping you. Even if true, how does that stop them being an option? It's still your choice. How can you reconcile the irrefutable fact that by far the majority of IBOs do NOT buy BSM with your claim that buying BSM is non-optional?

Your further lying by the second claim - my upline has helped me whether I've been buying BSM or not. I, as an upline, help anyone in my organisation who wants it, whether they're buying BSM or not. I could be charitable and assume you're just ignorant rather than lying, but I've told you this stuff before. You just choose to pretend otherwise.

Do some upline refuse to help people if they don't buy BSM? Possibly. I think that's wrong.

Yes many people get in and do absolutely nothing... but for those that consider themselves active builders not being on regular tools purchases is simply not an option.I have a friend who regularly qualifiers at ruby/emerald level. He does not buy tools and does not participate in a "system" as you know it. There are many like that. Nevertheless, the vast majority of people with large successful businesses do. You can knock a nail in with your head if you want, but most carpenters would decide not having a hammer is "simply not an option".

I'm honestly aghast at the level of spin you are trying to apply. You can't fool me I've seen it with my own eyes.No you haven't. You have zero experience with the vast majority of the Amway world. You have no idea at all what most IBOs do. None. You're just assuming it all operates the way it did in one corner of the Amway world you experienced, that that corner has never changed, and everyone else oeprates just the same - and when someone like me comes along and shares a different experience, you simply dismiss it and pretend it's not real.

It is real. Deal with it.

The stats wouldn't be "twisted". They don't NEED to be twisted to show how crap amway is as an opportunity. Bottom line, they don't release them when ETHICALLY they should. What are they hiding?Oh good grief. The "what are they hiding" defence. Edited for moderated thread

Also icerat, again I'm going to say that you simply aren't high enough in amway to have authority to speak about how great it is.Again, you can't argue facts so you just make **** up. I've made no claim to have authority to speak about "how great" Amway is. What I've done is simply share my experience, show facts and display the utter poverty of the kind of argument you spout. The irony of course is that I have far more experience with Amway than you do ... yet you claim some kind of authority while simultaneously dismissing me ... hilarious. :cool:

Skeptic
5th September 2009, 01:40 PM
What's the "average" (Amway) business income in the US? $115/mth

Veeeeeeeeery impressive. Why, that's almost $4 a day.

You put in merely an hour a day on average into this business -- part time, you know -- and, for that hour, you're already earning more than half the hourly federal minimum wage.

These Amway businessmen are really going places.

Skeptic
5th September 2009, 01:45 PM
Just for laughs, I wonder if it would even be possible to find any industry or service where the average income of those who do it part time is $115 a month or less. Does a field where people are doing worse than Amway even exist? Part-time panhandling probably earns more than $115 a month.

icerat
6th September 2009, 09:24 AM
Edited for topic - moderated thread
Skeptic, why are you replying to a post without having read it?

NewtonTrino
6th September 2009, 09:27 AM
I can't type a long response on my phone but I did notice that icerat has a buddy thAt qualifies at ruby. Sounds like an ideal candidate for my challenge to bring someone on and talk about how great their specific business is. How about it icerat? Ask your friend to answer some questions? Not holding my breath. ..

Porkchopjim
6th September 2009, 09:32 AM
And even the average "system" IBO spends less than the average sales person outside "the system". When you look at network marketers that do not have dedicated systems like have sprung up with Amway, their costs are higher. (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/network-21-vs-the-competition-a-price-comparison/)

Then, no doubt just like Amway products, those more expensive 'systems' must be a better value vs. the useless drivel (other than reinforcing failure) you endorse.

Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

Make sure to list all your Amway tapes on your resume...seeing as suddenly you consider them comparable to university courses. Remember that most tapes and CDs are a convenient way to extract money from downline.

How can you reconcile the irrefutable fact that by far the majority of IBOs do NOT buy BSM with your claim that buying BSM is non-optional?

And right in the following paragraph: not buying the tools is equivalent to driving a nail with your head...

He does not buy tools and does not participate in a "system" as you know it. There are many like that. Nevertheless, the vast majority of people with large successful businesses do. You can knock a nail in with your head if you want, but most carpenters would decide not having a hammer is "simply not an option".

I LOVE the tapespeak hammer reference!

How about the irrefutable fact that the real business of Amway is to cover the outrageous amounts of money extracted from downline in the form of 'very valuable tools'?

You have zero experience with the vast majority of the Amway world. You have no idea at all what most IBOs do. None. You're just assuming it all operates the way it did in one corner of the Amway world you experienced, that that corner has never changed, and everyone else oeprates just the same - and when someone like me comes along and shares a different experience, you simply dismiss it and pretend it's not real.

Right back at you. And again – when compared – your benevolent 'system' is no different than the abusive ones you claim are the only ones giving Amway a bad name. Once again, no IBO in any of the abusive systems you recognize says ANYTHING different than you do.

Did you ever find that test for phytonutrient levels?

NewtonTrino
6th September 2009, 07:23 PM
Great post porkchopjim.

Amway tapes = university courses!!! I'm rotflmao right now.

If neutral people reading this thread could see the content of these tapes their heads would literally explode.

Skeptic
6th September 2009, 09:40 PM
Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

Yes, but most university courses aren't the kind of repetitive drivel (in effect, "keep doing Amway even as you're losing your behind") that Amway tapes are. Just because manure is cheaper than cream doesn't mean it's a reason to put it in your coffee.

icerat
7th September 2009, 02:44 AM
I can't type a long response on my phone but I did notice that icerat has a buddy thAt qualifies at ruby. Sounds like an ideal candidate for my challenge to bring someone on and talk about how great their specific business is. How about it icerat? Ask your friend to answer some questions? Not holding my breath. ..

Let me see, there's the Amway Talk forums with IBOs all over the world, including platinums and above. There's blogs and MySpace and FaceBook profiles from IBOs all over the world, including platinums and above, even Diamonds and above. There are open meetings all over the world where you can go and meet platinums, emeralds, diamonds and above and ask them whatever you want.

But will you go and ask them? Nope, you want them to come and talk to you anonymous folk here. People who, when I've made claims, simply reject them and say I'm lying. Why on earth would I invite any of my friends to do that? (and I have friends at much higher level than ruby).

I think I'm mostly wasting my time talking to you and I shouldn't be doing it. Alas I'm weak ... but I'm certainly not going to encourage anyone else to do it. Anyone who has built any type of significant Amway business already knows it's a waste of time.

If you want to know, you go and ask. Nobody is hiding.

Cuddles
7th September 2009, 06:23 AM
Anyone who has built any type of significant Amway business already knows it's a waste of time.

Indeed.

NewtonTrino
7th September 2009, 08:27 AM
Doesn't this weakness apply to your entire ibofightback persona? Why is this forum the one innapropriate place for you to post? Because we are actually skeptical?

You are the one evangelizing here. Yet you won't even ASK your friend to drop by and talk about his real business?

Do you realize that not a shred of evidence has been presented that anyone except tools kingpins make any PROFIT in amway at all? Ask your buddy for profit/loss statements for a couple of years. Oops you cAn't as talking about profits is forbidden in amway.

Skeptic
7th September 2009, 11:34 AM
Amway folks go on and on about how much you save percentage wise and how much doing Amway is good relative to the income in poorer countries for a simple reason: this allows one to not be explicit about the actual, pathetic, monetary amounts.

"Join Amway and get 70% rebate!" / "Join Amway and make more than 78% of Venezuelans!" (or whatever) is really way to NOT say the truth -- "join Amway, you might make about $150 a month if you work very, very hard!".

I am not quoting exact figures (or countries) but that's the main idea.

Again -- what's the point? It's a LOT of very hard work for nothing. You're better off working part time at McDonald's than working at Amway. You'll certainly make more money.

icerat
7th September 2009, 01:10 PM
Doesn't this weakness apply to your entire ibofightback persona? Why is this forum the one innapropriate place for you to post? Because we are actually skeptical?

This forum is neither appropriate nor inappropriate. The "problem" is that people like yourself have made it perfectly clear you have zero interest in evaluating facts and evidence and you simply dismiss anything that does not fit your world view. Your position is more one of a "true believer" than a skeptic.

You are the one evangelizing here. Yet you won't even ASK your friend to drop by and talk about his real business?

I'm doing no evangelizing at all. I'm merely pointing out where your logic/facts/claims are wrong. I'm not going to ask anyone else to drop by here to waste their time when in my opinion I'm wasting my time. Come to think of it, when I first got involved in this thread I even got a couple of PMs from other members telling me they agreed with me an knew the business worked but advising I shouldn't bother with the thread because it would be a waste of my time. They were right.

But when you continue to state outright falsehoods I find it difficult to stand idly by.

Do you realize that not a shred of evidence has been presented that anyone except tools kingpins make any PROFIT in amway at all?

Gotta love that circular logic. Who is a "tool kingpin"? Anyone who can profit from reselling the "tools" as well as Amway. Who can do that? Anyone who has built to Platinum or higher - ie, they're making reasonable money from Amway.

So ... your complaint is that the majority of people making money from Amway are ... the people making money from Amway. :rolleyes:

Apart from which, that's not even true. I provided links to discussions with a number of IBOs who were below platinum talking about being profitable. I provided myself as an example of someone who was profitable.

Hec, last month I didn't spent a cent on my Amway business, and had 5 separate people ask me to get them some products. Oh, I mislead. I paid a small shipping fee on the order to get their products.

But you just continue to ignore it.

Ask your buddy for profit/loss statements for a couple of years. Oops you cAn't as talking about profits is forbidden in amway.

Again you're just spouting crap. Talking about profits is not "forbidden in amway". It is however forbidden by the FTC. "higher pins" know this stuff, they receive training and advice from Amway about it. I provided you with a link to the legal discussion on that info ...

But you just continue to ignore it.

Amway folks go on and on about how much you save percentage wise and how much doing Amway is good relative to the income in poorer countries for a simple reason: this allows one to not be explicit about the actual, pathetic, monetary amounts.

Which Amway folk "go on and on" about this stuff? I certainly don't (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/abos-please-stop-selling-amway-as-a-way-to-save-money/).

"Join Amway and get 70% rebate!" / "Join Amway and make more than 78% of Venezuelans!" (or whatever) is really way to NOT say the truth -- "join Amway, you might make about $150 a month if you work very, very hard!".

It's not hard to make $150/mth.

I am not quoting exact figures (or countries) but that's the main idea.

You're taking a self-selecting group of clueless Amway IBOs and deciding it's what all Amway IBOs do, with zero evidence to support such an assumption, and plenty that discredits it.

Again -- what's the point? It's a LOT of very hard work for nothing. You're better off working part time at McDonald's than working at Amway. You'll certainly make more money.

Again you make claims with zero evidence to support it, and ignore evidence contrary to it. A skeptic makes decisions based on all available evidence. You refuse to do that. You've decided what you believe and simply dismiss anything contrary to it. As such, for this topic at least, you're little better than a fundamentalist religious nut.

NewtonTrino
7th September 2009, 04:06 PM
Yeah but McDonalds is a j.o.b. and therefore you are a loser! Whereas in amway you are one of the chosen people who really have the world figured out!

So to summarize this thread amway is the greatest business in the world, but no, we won't show you a P/L statement for a business that actually makes money. Everything has to be a confusing blob of mumbo jumbo about past businesses given to wives and future businesses in the country you don't live in. Oh and the tools are as good as a university education. Does that about cover it?

icerat
8th September 2009, 03:24 AM
Yeah but McDonalds is a j.o.b. and therefore you are a loser! Whereas in amway you are one of the chosen people who really have the world figured out!

<snip blah blah blah>

There you go again, just just making stuff up. I guess one has to do that sometimes in order to deal with the cognitive dissonance that occurs when the real world just refuses to conform to your chosen belief system.

Pages and pages back I gave you links to financial statements. You ignored them. I've given you theory. I've given you fact. i've given you resource after resource to get more info and independently confirm what I'm saying. You ignore it. You just know what you know and nothing is going to change it.

Let's just go get on with our lives, ok? If it makes you happy, I'll reveal the truth. Nobody buys Amway products. The packages are actually all empty. The mile long manufacturing plants are in fact holograms. Amway's leaders have infiltrated the world banking system and have been doing fake deposits into bank accounts such that they appear on the statements, but they're not real! And yes, the tens of thousands of platinums and above are actually all paid actors. Indeed, Amway has infiltrated almost every government in the world and bribed people to ignore the fact it's a scam. They've even bribed judges around the world to accept fake evidence in things as mundane as income statements in divorce settlements! And the awards for everything for environmentalism (UN) to consumer product awards (readers digest, consumerlabs, UK beauty awards etc etc etc) .... all faked! Scientific papers? Faked! Free trips for achievers? Faked! They just hired chinese looking people in Australia, they didn't actually send thousands of real chinese from china, that would be absurd! It's all just one huge world encompassing conspiracy!!

You're right, you caught us. It's all over now. We're turning off the holograms, all the actors have been fired, and we're going to revert to our lizard form shortly before departing for Planet X.

Congratulations Newton Trino, Skeptic you've saved the world! :cool:

Almo
8th September 2009, 10:56 AM
Uhuh. Try virtually *any* University course. I bet the students listen (and pay for) more classes than any Amway IBO does. Remember that most tapes and CDs are simply seminars in a convenient format.

That's like comparing Scientology certificates to univeristy diplomas. University diplomas are worth something in the real world. Put all that time spent on Amway training on your resume and see how far it gets you outside the MLM world.

Porkchopjim
8th September 2009, 11:25 AM
The "problem" is that people like yourself have made it perfectly clear you have zero interest in evaluating facts and evidence and you simply dismiss anything that does not fit your world view. Your position is more one of a "true believer" than a skeptic.

Mirror, anyone?



But when you continue to state outright falsehoods I find it difficult to stand idly by.

Because any and all falsehoods are reserved for the express purpose of making Amway look not only legitimate, but a good idea.


So ... your complaint is that the majority of people making money from Amway are ... the people making money from Amway. :rolleyes:

Not what anybody said. But again, see 'falsehoods.'

Hec, last month I didn't spent a cent on my Amway business, and had 5 separate people ask me to get them some products. Oh, I mislead. I paid a small shipping fee on the order to get their products.

5 whole people! That's some amazing demand! How much PV did that earn you, by the way?

That's a great story, by the way. You should make a CD and sell it to other Amway salesmen as a 'motivator.'

Again you're just spouting crap. Talking about profits is not "forbidden in amway". It is however forbidden by the FTC.

Lie. Period. Discussing profit is not forbidden by the FTC.:boggled:

MISREPRESENTING profit, OR THE CHANCE OF MAKING ANY AT ALL, is forbidden.

Thanks for paying attention.

As such, for this topic at least, you're little better than a fundamentalist religious nut.

Because I think we all know who fills THAT roll in this discussion...

CynicalSkeptic
8th September 2009, 03:58 PM
Whether Amway is a good business for someone doesn't really depend on stats like this anyway. What matters is their goals, their drive, and their circumstances, whether there's real products with a real market, and whether there's enough profit available to make it viable.

I agree with this. I'm not convinced there is a real market outside the pyramid for the vast majority of MLMs.

Tex2
8th September 2009, 06:22 PM
All this back and forth BS on jobs, P/L statements, wives, countries, university education, etc., is a smokescreen for the REAL issue, the tool scam. The tool scam, THAT covers it. LOL

Skeptic
8th September 2009, 08:59 PM
So to summarize this thread amway is the greatest business in the world, but no, we won't show you a P/L statement for a business that actually makes money.

Yes, because that's PRIVATE, you see. You're supposed to join the business not because you have hard facts about how much your upline makes, but because you BELIEVE what they SAY they make.

Trust your upline. That is very, VERY important in Amway, you know.

Porkchopjim
9th September 2009, 10:22 AM
Interesting how both Icerat (here) and Amway (when legally challenged, as example FTC v. Amway) quickly adopt the Corn Po' “Aw, shucks, we ain't nothing but a little mom-and-pop vitamin and soap company that most members join to order the great products that are offered...” on the one hand...

...while within the ranks, it's all about “Living the life of dreams, staying at home, vacationing at will, and never having another financial worry in the world because Amway big-shots roll that way.”

The magazine is called 'Achieve' – not 'You define your own success' and there are NO STORIES about anyone pleased that they had 5 customers last month.

NewtonTrino
9th September 2009, 01:01 PM
<snip blah blah blah>

There you go again, just just making stuff up. I guess one has to do that sometimes in order to deal with the cognitive dissonance that occurs when the real world just refuses to conform to your chosen belief system.


I'm not making anything up. In fact a regular job is highly frowned up in amway as is starting any other kind of business. This is a FACT that you are simply lying about. You can try to deny this or twist it but this is part of amway culture whether you like it or not.

NewtonTrino
9th September 2009, 01:02 PM
All this back and forth BS on jobs, P/L statements, wives, countries, university education, etc., is a smokescreen for the REAL issue, the tool scam. The tool scam, THAT covers it. LOL

As much as you would like to make the tool scam the only issue we have to deal with reality. Yes the tools scam is a huge problem. It's just not the only problem.

icerat
10th September 2009, 04:03 AM
I agree with this. I'm not convinced there is a real market outside the pyramid for the vast majority of MLMs.

For all the things that call themselves MLM, we're in agreement - but then virtually by definition they're not MLMs, they're illegal pyramids.

NewtonTrino
10th September 2009, 08:20 AM
For all the things that call themselves MLM, we're in agreement - but then virtually by definition they're not MLMs, they're illegal pyramids.

Do you not see how absolutely disingenuous it is to just play around with definitions? You've gotten so used to spinning that you can't stop! amway is CLEARLY an multi level marketing (MLM) based system.

No response on the JOB thing? Do you deny that J.O.B.'s and other businesses are frowned up as part of amway culture? Be careful how you answer here Icerat! I want a YES or a NO answer to this on. You can put your spin after the YES or NO.

NewtonTrino
10th September 2009, 08:22 AM
Interesting how both Icerat (here) and Amway (when legally challenged, as example FTC v. Amway) quickly adopt the Corn Po' “Aw, shucks, we ain't nothing but a little mom-and-pop vitamin and soap company that most members join to order the great products that are offered...” on the one hand...

...while within the ranks, it's all about “Living the life of dreams, staying at home, vacationing at will, and never having another financial worry in the world because Amway big-shots roll that way.”

The magazine is called 'Achieve' – not 'You define your own success' and there are NO STORIES about anyone pleased that they had 5 customers last month.


This is an excellent point and one of the reasons I would love Icerat to answer my job question. Simply put amway distributors consider themselves to be in the "best opportunity in the world" and if you do anything else you are a chump and a loser. On the inside the business is built up in peoples heads and I think your description above is clear evidence of this.

icerat
10th September 2009, 10:23 AM
Do you not see how absolutely disingenuous it is to just play around with definitions? You've gotten so used to spinning that you can't stop! amway is CLEARLY an multi level marketing (MLM) based system.

Yes, Amway uses MLM. It also has products with legitimate market demand. The FTC has clearly stated that one of the major issues in determining whether a scheme is a pyramid or not is the motivation for purchase. This means, and I've said it before on this thread, that people can operate Amway in a model that would be deemed an illegal pyramid. This is one of the reasons why TEAM was kicked out a few years ago, the corp believed they were doing this.

Whether multilevel marketing encompasses both pyramid scams using multilevel compensation and legal companies doing so is up for debate. The US/Canada/EU etc all define multilevel marketing as legal and pyramid schemes as illegal. Clearly that means if you're operating a pyramid scheme using a multilevel compensation plan, then you're not multilevel marketing.

I fully accept however that many people use the word multilevel marketing to mean more than the legal definition. In my opinion that confusion is a major issue for the industry.

No response on the JOB thing? Do you deny that J.O.B.'s and other businesses are frowned up as part of amway culture? Be careful how you answer here Icerat! I want a YES or a NO answer to this on. You can put your spin after the YES or NO.

NO. Jobs are not frowned upon as part of "Amway culture".

Are jobs belittled within parts of Amway? Absolutely. The issue is that despite your continued assertion to the contrary, there is no monolithic "Amway culture". Amway's founders have explictly come out against the anti-job type of culture that some groups promote. I for one, affiliating with the single largest Amway organisation in the world, listening to
materials from multiple markets, including the US, and having attended seminars in multiple countries, have never once heard for example the "J.O.B. = just over broke" saying from any leaders withing that organisation. Not once. Same with "broke losers" and similar terms.

[quote="Porkchopjim"]The magazine is called 'Achieve' – not 'You define your own success' and there are NO STORIES about anyone pleased that they had 5 customers last month. [/url]

Porkchopjim
Edited for civility - moderated thread
claims he's been registered as an IBO for I think several years now. That means he received this Achieve Magazine (http://www.amwaywiki.com/images/3/39/Achieve_08Aug.pdf) last year which featured a number of new IBOs on the cover and covered their retailing success inside. Similar stories are in Amagrams around the world. He'd also be aware of the list of "Fast Track" qualifiers published in every Achieve since it was introduced. Fast Track is an incentive program that has retail customers as one of it's requirements.

Edited for civility - moderated thread

Porkchopjim
10th September 2009, 11:12 AM
For all the things that call themselves MLM, we're in agreement - but then virtually by definition they're not MLMs, they're illegal pyramids.

Interesting.

Seeing as Amway Business Owners become that way after being shown the magic circles and given one of three choices:

1. Become an Amway Business Owner.
2. Just buy products.
3. Don't do anything....

...Icerat insists that those that choose to do #1 but only end up doing #2 are legitimate demand customers - who for some odd reason - don't maintain that demand once they stop being Amway business owners yet SURELY have some way to continue to buy Amway products at the same rate they consumed when they were business owners. However, they never do, because if they did - Amway's traditional markets (see US) would have grown and not stagnated over many years.

That's artificial demand. That's not a display of a true market outside the pyramid when the overwhelming majority of Amway products are bought and consumed by Amway business owners for the sole reason of artificially inflating their businesses. If it were for true demand, that would not go away. It does when the ABO quits.

Contrary to Icerat's 'referenced' Team vs. Quixtar complaint that he has abused to declare that it shows 80% of products are true market demand...the lawsuit explicitly says 3.4% of the products are bought and consumed by non-business owners.

That's lying to try to make Amway look better.

Newton is right. Someone can't seem to tell the difference anymore (see religious zealot).

icerat
11th September 2009, 05:19 AM
More dishonest from PCJ.

...Icerat insists that those that choose to do #1 but only end up doing #2 are legitimate demand customers - who for some odd reason - don't maintain that demand once they stop being Amway business owners yet SURELY have some way to continue to buy Amway products at the same rate they consumed when they were business owners. However, they never do, because if they did - Amway's traditional markets (see US) would have grown and not stagnated over many years.

I've provided statistics and sources on this before, but of course they're ignored. 25% of people who do not renew their membership continue to buy products. Given 50% of the 70% of people who do not renew their membership in the first year never bought a product in the first place, this means a very large percentage of people who actually try the products continue to do so.

Furthermore, the while members may have the right to operate an Amway business, that doesn't mean they are. Buying products for yourself at distributor price does not make you a business owner. Indeed, as the Canadian Competition Bureau puts it -

A participant in an MLM plan is an individual who actively engages in the activities necessary to realize the benefits of the MLM plan.

I've been through this before on this thread, so I know it will get ignored AGAIN, but nevertheless ....

For products to be getting purchased by Amway members due to illegitimate demand, at a bare minimum there must be some financial incentive for purchase ... ie they'll "make money" if they buy the products. Yet only 12.9% of IBOs earn bonuses from group volume and >70% of IBOs who have renewed once renew again and purchase products .. with no economic incentive to purchase. Furthermore, they have an economic incentive (cheaper prices) to remain as members if they like the products, even if they have no interest in building the business.

So -
1. The majority of registered members who purchase products have no economic incentive to do so.
2. People who like the products have an economic incentive to remain as registered members
3. A large percentage of people who have purchased the products as members continue to purchase the products if they are no longer members.

PCJ is stating outright falsehoods. I've provided sources to back up all of this data earlier.

That's artificial demand. That's not a display of a true market outside the pyramid when the overwhelming majority of Amway products are bought and consumed by Amway business owners for the sole reason of artificially inflating their businesses. If it were for true demand, that would not go away. It does when the ABO quits.

No it doesn't. Most active ABOs who quit building the business continue to buy products. You are wrong.

Contrary to Icerat's 'referenced' Team vs. Quixtar complaint that he has abused to declare that it shows 80% of products are true market demand...the lawsuit explicitly says 3.4% of the products are bought and consumed by non-business owners.

It says no such thing. It says 3.4% of products were bought through the website by registered customers. It says nothing of products bought by customers from active IBOs, and it says nothing about products bought by registered members who never or are no longer operating a business.

Edited for moderated thread.

NewtonTrino
11th September 2009, 07:38 AM
So you agree that only 3.4% of products are sold to end customers directly through the website then?

I have to say I find that I'm not surprised by that at all.

The rest of the numbers seem like you are twisting pretty heavily. So ex-IBO's who aren't ex-IBO's because they still renew mostly by products but don't count as IBO's but as customers? I don't buy it for a second.

As for the JOB stuff, this is pretty universal within all amway groups. If you want to deny it fine, but up above you claimed that "Amway's founders have explictly come out against the anti-job type of culture that some groups promote". I'm sure some groups probably downplay this moronic thinking but to say that it's only limited to a few groups is just a lie. The anti job attitude is completely pervasive within amway. It's one of the essential elements of promoting the scam.

icerat
11th September 2009, 10:42 AM
So you agree that only 3.4% of products are sold to end customers directly through the website then?

Umm ... no. People registered as IBOs purchasing for personal use are end customers. The 3.4% refers to non-IBO registered end customers.

I have to say I find that I'm not surprised by that at all.

Who would be? Clearly if you want to buy more than a handful of products, it makes economic sense to register as an IBO. At least it did at the time of the stat. Amway has actually put in some incentives to try to have non-active IBOs revert to being customers.

The rest of the numbers seem like you are twisting pretty heavily. So ex-IBO's who aren't ex-IBO's because they still renew mostly by products but don't count as IBO's but as customers? I don't buy it for a second.

What's being twisted is you and PCJ continuing to claim that people who have zero economic incentive to purchase products are somehow not legitimate consumers of the product.

What's being twisted is you and PCJ continuing to claim that people who sign an agreement that gives them the right to market Amway products are miraculously "in business" despite doing nothing at all that could be considered as "in business" and not being considered by any government authority to be "in business"

As for the JOB stuff, this is pretty universal within all amway groups.

How do you know? You've admitted your experience of Amway is limited to one part.

If you want to deny it fine, but up above you claimed that "Amway's founders have explictly come out against the anti-job type of culture that some groups promote". I'm sure some groups probably downplay this moronic thinking but to say that it's only limited to a few groups is just a lie.

You have zero evidence to support that claim, and have admitted to not even having any personal knowledge to be able to support that claim.

The anti job attitude is completely pervasive within amway. It's one of the essential elements of promoting the scam.

Ok. So it's "essential", yet we know the largest and most successful single organization in Amway doesn't do it. How does that work exactly, it being "essential" and all?

Porkchopjim
11th September 2009, 12:10 PM
More dishonest from PCJ.

I've provided statistics and sources on this before, but of course they're ignored. 25% of people who do not renew their membership continue to buy products...

Cry dishonest and ignore the part where I say those IBOs who leave the business suddenly don't consume nearly the SAME VOLUME as they did when they 'owned' the business?

That ex-IBOs buy products isn't in dispute. That they no longer feel the NEED to buy 100-300PV worth a MONTH is what you ignore.

Furthermore, the while members may have the right to operate an Amway business, that doesn't mean they are. Buying products for yourself at distributor price does not make you a business owner. Indeed, as the Canadian Competition Bureau puts it -

A participant in an MLM plan is an individual who actively engages in the activities necessary to realize the benefits of the MLM plan.

I've been through this before on this thread, so I know it will get ignored AGAIN, but nevertheless ....

To participate in the benefits of the Amway plan, all you need to do is to order 100PV worth of products a month to get a rebate check from them.

THAT is benefiting from the plan.


So -
1. The majority of registered members who purchase products have no economic incentive to do so.

Wait. Which one is true? The one above, or the one below?

I know - just have it both ways!

2. People who like the products have an economic incentive to remain as registered members

That excuse went out 30 years ago with FTC v. Amway. Now that Amway can't fix prices, the incentive for a single registered member only appears at 100PV - about $300 of Amway products each month...and then it's a 3% rebate on business volume.

You can get Amway products cheaper than that on the web from IBOs who can't dump the stuff fast enough to make their 'PV' goals.

3. A large percentage of people who have purchased the products as members continue to purchase the products if they are no longer members.

And the volume of those orders is miniscule compared to when they thought they would be retired on the beach in 3-5 years after suckering enough of their friends/family/strangers in bookstores to do the same thing.


It says no such thing. It says 3.4% of products were bought through the website by registered customers.

Here's the quote:

“In fact, a 2006 report prepared by Quixtar states that only 3.4% of its total volume comes from those who do not participate in Quixtar's compensation plan.”

That's significantly different from what you're PRETENDING it says.

PCJ is stating outright falsehoods. I've provided sources to back up all of this data earlier.

You've abused the sources and have not accurately represented them. In fact, you've misrepresented them.

Once again you're caught lying in order to try to make Amway look good. It's almost like a cult or something.

NewtonTrino
11th September 2009, 12:57 PM
Ok. So it's "essential", yet we know the largest and most successful single organization in Amway doesn't do it. How does that work exactly, it being "essential" and all?

So just to be ABSOLUTELY clear here you are saying that I won't find a single tape/book or CD distributed by this group that disparages working a job for a living?

icerat
11th September 2009, 01:47 PM
That ex-IBOs buy products isn't in dispute.

Oh yes it is. My apologies if I misunderstood your viewpoint, however a number of others in this discussion have claimed there is little or no legitimate demand, and I haven't noticed you disputing that.

That they no longer feel the NEED to buy 100-300PV worth a MONTH is what you ignore.

100-300PV that active IBOs purchase is not just personal use, it includes customer volume. If they're not actively building the business, then the latter could and would clearly disappear so that personal volume would drop.

If they're purchasing stuff purely to make some arbitrary "quota", then it's illegitimate demand, I'm not disputing that and never have. Indeed, as you well know I've said as much on many occasions and decried the practice. What I'm disputing is that there's no or little legitimate demand for the products.

To participate in the benefits of the Amway plan, all you need to do is to order 100PV worth of products a month to get a rebate check from them.

What? Now you agree with Tex? Buying stuff and getting a discount is making money? :jaw-dropp

It's not making money, it's getting stuff cheaper because you bought more stuff. Same principle applies virtually everywhere. Discounting does not suddenly create illegitimate demand, which is the issue here.

Wait. Which one is true? The one above, or the one below?

A potential 3% discount if you purchase certain volumes is not a significant economic incentive to purchase stuff you don't want.

A guaranteed 20-30% discount on stuff you want is a significant economic incentive to be a member.

I know - just have it both ways!

Yup, both are true.

That excuse went out 30 years ago with FTC v. Amway. Now that Amway can't fix prices, the incentive for a single registered member only appears at 100PV - about $300 of Amway products each month...and then it's a 3% rebate on business volume.

Huh? 20-30% distributor discount pricing "went out 30 years ago"??

You can get Amway products cheaper than that on the web from IBOs who can't dump the stuff fast enough to make their 'PV' goals.

Some Amway products you can, with uncertain availability, uncertain security, and no satisfaction guarantees. Still, I'm sure some people buy stuff that way - and guess what, it would just go as an IBO purchase.

And the volume of those orders is miniscule compared to when they thought they would be retired on the beach in 3-5 years after suckering enough of their friends/family/strangers in bookstores to do the same thing.

Any evidence to support that claim or are you just guessing?

Here's the quote:

“In fact, a 2006 report prepared by Quixtar states that only 3.4% of its total volume comes from those who do not participate in Quixtar's compensation plan.”

And here's the context - that interpretation is from the plaintiffs in a lawsuit against Quixtar brought by some IBOs who were kicked out for unethical behaviour - indeed, partly for the very behaviour you are decrying of pushing illegitimate demand. A lawsuit they lost. Quixtar disputed that particular claim, because the *facts* are as I stated them. The figure itself comes from Quixtar statistics provided in the lawsuit on registered customer data. It does not include volume I outlined earlier, or, for another example, the products you admit is available via Ebay.

You've abused the sources and have not accurately represented them. In fact, you've misrepresented them.

No, you have misrepresented them. You've quoted an interpretation of a statistic by a party, Orrin Woodward, with an obvious bias. Do you just automatically accept all allegations made in lawsuits? If I sue you and say your a sociopath, does that automatically make it true?

Once again you're caught lying in order to try to make Amway look good. It's almost like a cult or something.

Au contraire, what it does once again you're caught misrepresenting something and accepting things as true purely because it confirms what you want to believe when there's obvious and very good reasons to treat it with caution. Indeed, in [url=http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html]the Forbes article on Orrin Woodward[/quote], in reference to the figure it says -

Amway says the 3.4% represents only a "fraction" of its retail sales.

You of course prefer the version by the guy kicked out of Amway for doing the very thing both you and I agree is wrong.

Porkchopjim
12th September 2009, 11:04 AM
Oh yes it is. My apologies if I misunderstood your viewpoint, however a number of others in this discussion have claimed there is little or no legitimate demand, and I haven't noticed you disputing that.

That's because I DON'T dispute that fact – thanks for putting it that way! There is INDEED little to no legitimate demand for Amway products.



100-300PV that active IBOs purchase is not just personal use, it includes customer volume. If they're not actively building the business, then the latter could and would clearly disappear so that personal volume would drop.

It includes what little customer volume there is. Latest example of success: 5 customers? Only 20 more and you might have yourself a legitimate Amway business as defined and agreed by the FTC in 1979.

“Actively building the business” = overconsuming Awmay products in this context.

Customer demand – if there were any – and true personal consumption demand would show Amway growth as those IBOs drop out – which by your own figures – tons do.

Amway doesn't grow like that. It stays flat. True customer demand as you describe it would create growth. Replacing high-consuming IBOs with other high-consuming IBOs would keep it flat. Which it is.

What I'm disputing is that there's no or little legitimate demand for the products.

Good luck. You've been disputing that for years unsuccessfully and without any help from Amway's own numbers. Perhaps that secret data is on one of those 'training tapes'?


What? Now you agree with Tex? Buying stuff and getting a discount is making money? :jaw-dropp

Didn't say that. You know it.

What I DO say is that only an Amway Business Owner has the contracted right to get a 3%+ rebate on purchases.

I'm pretty sure that the Amway Business Rules spell that out specifically.

Huh? 20-30% distributor discount pricing "went out 30 years ago"??

You honestly expect anyone here to accept that a single IBO could self-consume over $20K of Amway products per month – which is how much you need PER MONTH to get your 20-30% discount all by your onsies.

In case you forgot: it's the MISREPRESENTATION of the Amway business that the FTC finds unseemly. You should refrain from doing that - along with your claims that it's "not hard to make $150."

Any evidence to support that claim or are you just guessing?

Just the references YOU listed.

And here's the context - that interpretation is from the plaintiffs in a lawsuit against Quixtar brought by some IBOs who were kicked out for unethical behaviour - indeed, partly for the very behaviour you are decrying of pushing illegitimate demand.

That's not an 'interpretation' – it's a direct quote.

Any chance you have a copy of that special report that you seem to understand so well? Seeing as you are making the assertion that the citing of the report saying 3.4% to non-participants is in error? No?

You had no problem using that lawsuit as an authoritative source previously. But I'd expect that because you are wired to lie to make Amway look good.

You don't seem to like any other interpretations when you are found abusing them – so don't double standard us now.

It's only 3.4% of legitimate demand. Deal with it, as you say!


Do you just automatically accept all allegations made in lawsuits? If I sue you and say your a sociopath, does that automatically make it true?

Once again – that particular lawsuit seems to suit you just fine when you can cherry pick (and abuse) portions of it.

The volume, and stagnation, of Amway sales in NA more supports the replacement of IBOs who are hyperconsuming products in order to build 'volume' versus your model of genuine demand that is constantly bringing in both new high-volume business owners and their customer's demands.

What's being twisted is you and PCJ continuing to claim that people who sign an agreement that gives them the right to market Amway products are miraculously "in business" despite doing nothing at all that could be considered as "in business" and not being considered by any government authority to be "in business"

I'm only claiming what Amway claims when they say 3M business owners!

If it's good enough for the commercial, it should be good enough for you.

Or – did Amway take that 'out of context'?

Did you just accuse them of lying to make themselves look good?

NewtonTrino
12th September 2009, 11:37 AM
It's only 3.4% of legitimate demand. Deal with it, as you say!


And of those how many are just friends and family being pressured to buy?

icerat
12th September 2009, 12:33 PM
That's because I DON'T dispute that fact – thanks for putting it that way! There is INDEED little to no legitimate demand for Amway products.

Yet I just provided a whole bunch of statistics that prove you wrong.:cool:

It includes what little customer volume there is. Latest example of success: 5 customers? Only 20 more and you might have yourself a legitimate Amway business as defined and agreed by the FTC in 1979.

There was no such definition or agreement. Again you're just making stuff up. Apart from which that's 5 retail customers, it says nothing of wholesale customers.

“Actively building the business” = overconsuming Awmay products in this context.

Self-consuming Amway products is not a business at all. The business is in finding retail and wholesale customers for Amway products.

Customer demand – if there were any – and true personal consumption demand would show Amway growth as those IBOs drop out – which by your own figures – tons do.

By that logic, any time a company has a drop in sales it means there's no demand for their products? Ridiculous. Demand for Amway products drops for the same large variety of reasons it does in other companies, ranging changes in the competition to customers and/or reps moving or dying, to them finding some other product they like more etc etc etc. Research done in the US several years ago by Amway found the main reason retail customers stopped buying Amway products was because their rep disappeared.

There is legitimate demand for Amway products, it's not up for opinion, it's a fact.

Amway doesn't grow like that. It stays flat. True customer demand as you describe it would create growth. Replacing high-consuming IBOs with other high-consuming IBOs would keep it flat. Which it is.

What a load of hogwash. Demand doesn't work like that. Every business has customer churn of some variety or another. You also seem to be talking just about Amway US? Just like any other company in any market, it goes through cycles of ups and downs. Why do you think Amway, or an Amway IBOs business, should be any different?

Good luck. You've been disputing that for years unsuccessfully and without any help from Amway's own numbers. Perhaps that secret data is on one of those 'training tapes'?

Nothing secret about it. There's a market for Amway products. To claim otherwise simply indicates a willful disregard of reality.

What I DO say is that only an Amway Business Owner has the contracted right to get a 3%+ rebate on purchases.

Not true, I've given rebates and discounts to customers lots of times.

I'm pretty sure that the Amway Business Rules spell that out specifically.

To the complete contrary. Indeed Amway got fined by the FTC for pressuring distributors to fix prices .... 30 years ago.

You honestly expect anyone here to accept that a single IBO could self-consume over $20K of Amway products per month – which is how much you need PER MONTH to get your 20-30% discount all by your onsies.

Your logic is getting twisted up in your underwear or something. Your assuming the only reason people buy products is due to monetary incentives - not because they want the product - and therefore declaring that volume discounts are there incentive to self consumes.

You're own skepticism here shows the reality - it's an incentive to develop wholesale and retail customers to increase volume ... because no one could honestly accept that a single IBO could self-consume over $20K of Amway products per month - which is what one would need to believe to believe volume discounts are incentive to self consume.

In case you forgot: it's the MISREPRESENTATION of the Amway business that the FTC finds unseemly. You should refrain from doing that - along with your claims that it's "not hard to make $150."

I stand by what I said. It's not hard to make $150 with Amway, and if the FTC wanted to take me to court I'm sure I'd have no problems proving the case.

That's not an 'interpretation' – it's a direct quote.

A direct quote of a lawyer representing a plaintiff making accusations against Amway - in a case they lost!! Yeah, that's unbiased :rolleyes:

Any chance you have a copy of that special report that you seem to understand so well? Seeing as you are making the assertion that the citing of the report saying 3.4% to non-participants is in error? No?

Yes I have a copy.

You had no problem using that lawsuit as an authoritative source previously. But I'd expect that because you are wired to lie to make Amway look good.

No, because I'm taking the information from tables of data that have been acknowledged as factual by Amway. You however are quoting a lawyer for the plaintiff's claims about what the data means, an interpretation that has been explictly dismissed as wrong by Amway.

The volume, and stagnation, of Amway sales in NA more supports the replacement of IBOs who are hyperconsuming products in order to build 'volume' versus your model of genuine demand that is constantly bringing in both new high-volume business owners and their customer's demands.

Again you just make stuff up. I have no "model of genuine demand that is constantly bringing in both new high-volume business owners and their customer's demands".

Demand for Amway products is mediated by all the same kind of things as other companies products, including fads, price, marketing, general economy etc etc etc.

I'm only claiming what Amway claims when they say 3M business owners!

If it's good enough for the commercial, it should be good enough for you.

Or – did Amway take that 'out of context'?

Did you just accuse them of lying to make themselves look good?

Call it lying if you want, to me it's a case of hyperbolic marketing using a dumb definition of "business owner" - and in my opinion it doesn't make them "look good" at all, I tender this very thread as evidence!

The reality is that neither you nor Amway (nor I) gets to decide whether someone is a "business owner". You don't become a business owner simply by signing a bit of paper and then paying a renewal fee.

NewtonTrino
12th September 2009, 01:41 PM
Icerat, you can claim there is legit product demand outside the pyramid but you haven't shown that to be the cast in any way that an objective observer can understand. In fact it seems quite clear that most of those that buy these products are involved as an IBO.

icerat
12th September 2009, 02:31 PM
Icerat, you can claim there is legit product demand outside the pyramid but you haven't shown that to be the cast in any way that an objective observer can understand. In fact it seems quite clear that most of those that buy these products are involved as an IBO.

I'll put it simply -

(1) the vast majority of the products are bought by end users with no economic incentive to purchase them other than the price and perceived value of the product.

The only argument given against that would have us believe

(a) that people who make no money at all from marketing Amway products are buying them as result of becoming and Amway rep, despite not considering them of good value, rather than the far simpler and more logical explanation that they became, or maintained, Amway membership so they would get products they like at distributor pricing.

and furthermore,

(b) that products that have received numerous independent consumer awards and independent positive reviews around the world have no legitimate demand

(c) that these award winning products that are *cheaper* or of comparable price to similiar competitors in the marketplace have no legitimate demand

(d) that independent judiciary in multiple countries over multiple decades have somehow been convinced they have legitimate demand when they do not.

What more needs to be said?

Porkchopjim
12th September 2009, 04:07 PM
Yet I just provided a whole bunch of statistics that prove you wrong.:cool:

Must have missed that part. Must have been like that statistics that show buying useless CDs and seminars makes people more successful?

All you've done is try to prove that self-consumption to make PV goals is a valid purchase. You have not proven that the vast majority of Amway products are bought by someone who is not a participant in the compensation plan. Contrary to your invented Amway rules, all I have to do is buy 100PV of products in one month to get a rebate from Amway. That is not profit, but that certainly is benefiting from the plan, isn't it? Of course not.


There was no such definition or agreement. Again you're just making stuff up. Apart from which that's 5 retail customers, it says nothing of wholesale customers.

Once again, of course not! The ruling said nothing about the 70% rule, the buy-back rule, and the 25 retail customers required to get money from downline purchases.

Amway has since tossed that out the window to an easier level for IBOs to lie about: 50PV, $100 or 10 customers.

Self-consuming Amway products is not a business at all. The business is in finding retail and wholesale customers for Amway products.

Here we go again. The bottom guy gets hosed – and Icerat is fine with that. All you have to do is not be the last guy in the chain, and as soon as you get one other sucker to join your group: BAM! You're a bona-fide wholesaler!


By that logic, any time a company has a drop in sales it means there's no demand for their products? Ridiculous.

It's ridiculous because you're using Insider logic. With all the legitimate demand that you claim is out there – with IBOs only buying what they truly want and the MAJORITY of them continuing to buy what they want when they stop being business owners – and hundreds of thousands of new IBOs signing up each year...all that GENUINE demand would be reflected in growth.

Instead – it's a minority of Amway business owners buying their own products, getting burned out, and replaced.

There is legitimate demand for Amway products, it's not up for opinion, it's a fact.

The legitimate demand is minute compared to the self-consumption to reach PV goals.

How much was your 5 customers worth for PV last month?

Just as you like anecdotal evidence: IBOs who were religious 100PV-300PV 'producers' (i.e. - 100PV-300PV consumers) who no longer are business owners but still order Amway products now consume – the genuine demand – about 15-35PV a month.

Why do you think Amway, or an Amway IBOs business, should be any different?

Because buying your own products isn't a real business.

And TEAM wasn't 'kicked out' because they bought their own products.



There's a market for Amway products. To claim otherwise simply indicates a willful disregard of reality.

The level of TRUE demand is only slightly higher than the level of demand that exists for the idiotic 'training systems' you crow about: inside the pyramid only.

Not true, I've given rebates and discounts to customers lots of times.

Read what I wrote again and stop wasting everyone's time pretending I stutter. So, your customers have an enforceable contract with you that they have paid a fee to you for in order to qualify for discounts on tiered levels of purchases?

To the complete contrary. Indeed Amway got fined by the FTC for pressuring distributors to fix prices .... 30 years ago.

You've gone Tex and started answering things that weren't even talked about. This one and the one before it. Perhaps you wouldn't 'misunderstand' so much if you weren't so much of a zealot.

So, you're saying that the Amway Business Plan DOES NOT explicitly spell out that you will receive a 3% bonus on your business volume if you reach a level of 100PV in one month if you are a business owner. Because THAT's what I said.

To the complete contrary, you claim.

I'm glad that your flock turns to you for authoritative rulings on all things Amway. Spells the death of that awful cult a lot sooner than I could bring about on my own.

Your assuming the only reason people buy products is due to monetary incentives - not because they want the product - and therefore declaring that volume discounts are there incentive to self consumes.

Volume discounts are NOT the incentive to self consume.

Artificially inflating business volume to fill in the little Amway circles is the incentive to self-consume.

And THAT's taught by your stupid systems – which brainwashes IBOs into thinking that 'volume = profit' when the equation is a little more complicated than that.

The first proof an IBO gets if he can't sell anything for a retail profit that the 'business' works is his $9 check Amway sends him for buying $300 worth of products.

because no one could honestly accept that a single IBO could self-consume over $20K of Amway products per month - which is what one would need to believe to believe volume discounts are incentive to self consume.

Whereas you seem to be able to honestly accept that IBOs can consume – by legitimate demand - $300 to $900 worth of Amway products a month.

I stand by what I said. It's not hard to make $150 with Amway, and if the FTC wanted to take me to court I'm sure I'd have no problems proving the case.

Doesn't matter – you've already declared that the FTC prohibits talk of profit.


You however are quoting a lawyer for the plaintiff's claims about what the data means, an interpretation that has been explictly dismissed as wrong by Amway.

Whip out that bad boy! Let's have a look at it! Or – we should just take your word for it.

Again you just make stuff up. I have no "model of genuine demand that is constantly bringing in both new high-volume business owners and their customer's demands".

First you claim it as all kinds of 'legitimate demand' and now you dismiss it?

Demand for Amway products is mediated by all the same kind of things as other companies products, including fads, price, marketing, general economy etc etc etc.

And that's why IBOs are stuck buying and consuming the VAST majority of them.

The reality is that neither you nor Amway (nor I) gets to decide whether someone is a "business owner". You don't become a business owner simply by signing a bit of paper and then paying a renewal fee.

I'm pretty sure Amway gets to define what an “Amway Business Owner” is.

Besides, seeing as you are the largest proponent of 'define your own success' – suddenly you seem to be putting limitations on that all over the place. Say one thing and do another – Amway 101.

(1) the vast majority of the products are bought by end users with no economic incentive to purchase them other than the price and perceived value of the product.

100% false. All your reasons are advertising (i.e. - lying / hyperbole).

NewtonTrino
12th September 2009, 11:38 PM
I'll put it simply -

(1) the vast majority of the products are bought by end users with no economic incentive to purchase them other than the price and perceived value of the product.


Proof? Where are all of these customers? This is a very bold statement. To me this means at least 80% of product is going outside to the pyramid to non-IBO's. You can't be claiming that IBO's don't have more incentive than price and perceived value, after all they sell the product which is an implicit bias.

Also just to be clear you are claiming that your group doesn't slam people working jobs right? This means none of the "training" materials in your system disparage jobs right? I notice you ignored this question above.

Porkchopjim
13th September 2009, 02:12 AM
(a) that people who make no money at all from marketing Amway products are buying them as result of becoming and Amway rep, despite not considering them of good value, rather than the far simpler and more logical explanation that they became, or maintained, Amway membership so they would get products they like at distributor pricing.

As you've already stated in your case, it's not hard for customers to get products at reduced and even distributor pricing. So that's out.

(b) that products that have received numerous independent consumer awards and independent positive reviews around the world have no legitimate demand

While that makes good advertising, it doesn't prove one way or the other that there is demonstrated demand for those products.

(c) that these award winning products that are *cheaper* or of comparable price to similiar competitors in the marketplace have no legitimate demand

Not competitors that are similar enough. True comparisons of actual comparable products show Amway to be more expensive – even at 'distributor pricing'. While Icerat will defend his magic vitamins (with secret plant powers included) to the death – real comparable products can be gotten much cheaper.

(d) that independent judiciary in multiple countries over multiple decades have somehow been convinced they have legitimate demand when they do not.

The Corn Po' defense is a powerful one: all these people become distributors in order to just buy products because they like them. When you look at Amway's dismal performance as an MLM business – that is, for those who participate in the plan, not Amway itself that makes a buttload of money selling products to IBOs trying to consume their way to financial freedom – it's sure looks like a plausible explanation. It also helps that you pretend to have stringent requirements to ensure outside demand.

Looking at it overall, it sure does just look like a harmless little vitamin and soap company that doesn't amount to two spits in the overall ocean.

But then you get a look at the 'rags to riches life on the beach is yours for the taking if you just work hard enough' propaganda that Amway sticks out there...well... there sure does seem to be more said about that.

icerat
13th September 2009, 08:21 AM
Proof? Where are all of these customers? This is a very bold statement.

I have given the supporting statistical evidence for this many many times.

To me this means at least 80% of product is going outside to the pyramid to non-IBO's.

No, because "IBO" includes people who are not "participants in the scheme", ie have a monetary incentive.

In the US, only 12.9% of registered IBOs are earning volume bonuses outside their own personal purchases. (source: Team vs Quixtar)

You can't be claiming that IBO's don't have more incentive than price and perceived value, after all they sell the product which is an implicit bias.

No they don't. The UK statistics said in 2006, 9% of IBOs were selling to retail customers (source: BERR vs Amway UK, judgement), the US statistics said in 2005 only 12.9% of IBOs are selling to wholesale customers (ie other IBOs). (source: Team vs Quixtar)

The vast majority of IBOs are not selling anything, nor trying to. They have no economic incentive to purchase the products outside intrinsic value

Also just to be clear you are claiming that your group doesn't slam people working jobs right? This means none of the "training" materials in your system disparage jobs right? I notice you ignored this question above.

I didn't ignore it at all, I answered explictly. I haven't listed to every piece of training material in the N21 system, but of the hundreds I have listened to over the years, and who knows how many seminars I've been too, in multiple countries, I've never heard disparagement of people working jobs.

icerat
13th September 2009, 09:04 AM
As you've already stated in your case, it's not hard for customers to get products at reduced and even distributor pricing. So that's out.

Believe it or not, not everything is on ebay, not everybody buys from ebay, and price isn't everything. I hope one day you'll stop being dishonest in your claims about what I say, which was never that "it's not hard for customers to get products at reduced ... pricing."

Not to mention your shear hypocrisy and circular logic of implying that people who register for distributor pricing because they want the products are evidence that there's no legitimate demand for the products since as they get distributor pricing that means they can profit through resale or volume rebats so it's not legitimate demand. :rolleyes:

While that makes good advertising, it doesn't prove one way or the other that there is demonstrated demand for those products.

Significant numbers of independent judges recommending Amway products as good value isn't evidence there might be legitimate demand for the products. Uhhuh. The recommendations of respected experts is one of the things that drives consumer demand. You running out of straws to desperately clutch to yet? :covereyes

Not competitors that are similar enough. True comparisons of actual comparable products show Amway to be more expensive – even at 'distributor pricing'. While Icerat will defend his magic vitamins (with secret plant powers included) to the death – real comparable products can be gotten much cheaper.I've already given numerous price comparisons on this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5027613). No need to prove you wrong again.

The Corn Po' defense is a powerful one: all these people become distributors in order to just buy products because they like them. When you look at Amway's dismal performance as an MLM business – that is, for those who participate in the plan,What dismal performance? The evidence suggests the great majority of people who actively pursue the business plan for the necessary time earn decent incomes. There's nothing dismal about it.

Unless of course you want to twist the statistics by continuing your hypocrisy that the same group of people who join to get distributor pricing - which you think somehow provide evidence there's little demand - should also be considered as actively building the business and evidence of low success! Talk about spin!

Looking at it overall, it sure does just look like a harmless little vitamin and soap company that doesn't amount to two spits in the overall ocean.Do you have anything at all but straw men?

But let's review some facts about Amway again -

1. #2 largest direct selling company in the world with US$8.2billion in sales (http://www.directsellingnews.com/index.php/site/entries_archive_display/the_100_million_club)
2. Deloitte Touche Global Power in Retailing (http://public.deloitte.com/media/0460/2009GlobalPowersofRetail_FINAL2.pdf)
3. One of the largest private companies in the world (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/21/privates08_Alticor_B15P.html)
4. #1 Health & Beauty Internet Retailer (http://www.internetretailer.com/Top500/)
5. #1 best selling Nutritional brand in the world (http://www.amwaywiki.com/File:Euromonitor_Nutrilite_Claim.pdf)
6. #4 best selling prestige cosmetics brand in the world (http://www.euromonitor.com/World_Cosmetics_and_Toiletries_Marketing_Directory )
7. Readers' Digest Most Trusted Brand (Nutritional Supplements) 2005,2006,2007,2008,2009 (http://www.rdasiatrustedbrands.com)
8. Readers' Digest Most Trusted Brand (Water Treatment Systems) (http://www.rdasiatrustedbrands.com)
9. ConsumberLabs - Nutritional supplements, Most Satisfied Consumers 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 (http://www.consumerlabs.com)
10. etc etc etc etc (http://www.amwaywiki.com/Awards_and_Recognitions)

Not two spits in the ocean.

Edited for civility - moderated thread (to other readers: PCJ is one of a number of dedicated anti-amway critics).

Tex2
13th September 2009, 12:34 PM
Once again, of course not! The ruling said nothing about the 70% rule, the buy-back rule, and the 25 retail customers required to get money from downline purchases. ---- It has never been 25 customers, it was 25 sales.

Amway has since tossed that out the window to an easier level for IBOs to lie about: 50PV, $100 or 10 customers. ---- Haven't you kept up with the recent rule changes? The $100 criteria has been dropped.

ibofb has this fantasy that IBOs qualify as customers, especially if they make no effort to retail and/or sponsor others. He's WRONG, because by Amway rules an IBO CAN'T qualify as a customer/retail purchase.

Skeptic
13th September 2009, 01:55 PM
Imagine if one discovered 96% of those who eat at McDonalds' actually own a McDonalds' restaurant themselves. Not much of a recommendation, is it? Either of the hamburgers or the chances of making money selling them?

icerat
13th September 2009, 02:32 PM
ibofb has this fantasy that IBOs qualify as customers, especially if they make no effort to retail and/or sponsor others. He's WRONG, because by Amway rules an IBO CAN'T qualify as a customer/retail purchase.

I have no such fantasy. IBOs do not qualify as "customers" for the purpose of Amway's retail customer rules, which is what you are referring to here.

Imagine if one discovered 96% of those who eat at McDonalds' actually own a McDonalds' restaurant themselves. Not much of a recommendation, is it? Either of the hamburgers or the chances of making money selling them?

What is the relevance of this comment to the thread in discussion? Do you actually believe that simply signing a piece of paper that gives you the right to market Amway products means you own and operate a fully fledged business?

Please, take that definition to your local tax authorities and see how it goes over. I guarantee you that if you won't even be able to deduct the cost of the ink to sign as a business expense.

You don't own a business until you actually take action to develop a business. This isn't rocket science, and I think it's unlikely you're simply too stupid to understand it - so why are do you continue to pursue this clearly illegitimate line of thinking? For what purpose?

Porkchopjim
13th September 2009, 03:28 PM
Believe it or not, not everything is on ebay, not everybody buys from ebay, and price isn't everything. I hope one day you'll stop being dishonest in your claims about what I say, which was never that "it's not hard for customers to get products at reduced ... pricing."

Don't go jumping off the deep end on my account.

As for 'reduced pricing' – there is nothing in there that says 'eBay'. IBOs are free to set their prices at whatever they want. Old Tex offers to sell products at IBO cost. Higher volume IBOs could offer more than that.

Then again, there are IBOs desperate to get something back after reaching their 'goal' and will dump stuff on eBay, but that's not the point.

Significant numbers of independent judges recommending Amway products as good value isn't evidence there might be legitimate demand for the products. Uhhuh. The recommendations of respected experts is one of the things that drives consumer demand. You running out of straws to desperately clutch to yet? :covereyes

“Might” is a word with lots of wiggle room, isn't it? Well, it is in the real world. Now, I know that word meets your 'scientific standards' when it comes to overpriced vitamins, but again that has little to do with reality.

I've already given numerous price comparisons on this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5027613). No need to prove you wrong again.

Other folks have already sufficiently dismissed that particular piece of propaganda you offered. All you managed to do is show that you have to pick extravagantly priced products to make Amway look good.

What dismal performance? The evidence suggests the great majority of people who actively pursue the business plan for the necessary time earn decent incomes. There's nothing dismal about it.

We'll just use your own words against you again:

In the US, only 12.9% of registered IBOs are earning volume bonuses outside their own personal purchases.

The evidence suggests that the great majority of people who actively pursue the business plan end up broke and disillusioned.

Unless of course you want to twist the statistics by continuing your hypocrisy that the same group of people who join to get distributor pricing - which you think somehow provide evidence there's little demand - should also be considered as actively building the business and evidence of low success! Talk about spin!

Given the introduction and focus of 'Showing the Amway Plan' – it's not the products that get people signed up as 'business owners.' It's the chance to make income from owning a business. At the end of that first meeting and decision to join, brand new IBOs know a heck of a lot more about the business than they do the products.

What's one of the first recommended things a new IBO does? BUY PRODUCTS SO HE CAN GET TO KNOW THEM.

The idea that IBOs become IBOs just to buy products is idiotic. They end up that way - because they can't sell them or sucker anyone else into joining the pyramid. Spinning Amway's failure as a plus seems to be your MO.


But let's review some facts about Amway again -

1. #2 largest direct selling company in the world with US$8.2billion in sales.

With overpriced products and 'business owners' trying to buy their way to financial freedom, that's a pretty good scam they got going there.

2. Deloitte Touche Global Power in Retailing

Beaten soundly by “BJ's Wholesale Club” (ranking – 95, Amway – 114, although Amway DID beat “Pick and Pay Stores” of South Africa!)

3. One of the largest private companies in the world

Amway is very successful at selling products to its consumers: IBOs.

4. #1 Health & Beauty Internet Retailer
5. #1 best selling Nutritional brand in the world

Based on dollar figures of overpriced products bought and consumed by 'business owners.' We've been through this before.

6. #4 best selling prestige cosmetics brand in the world

"Prestige" doesn't happen to be one of the categories. That would be you making things up.

7. Readers' Digest Most Trusted Brand (Nutritional Supplements) 2005,2006,2007,2008,2009
8. Readers' Digest Most Trusted Brand (Water Treatment Systems)

I love the 'funny but true' stories they have! That's a powerhouse endorsement right there!

9. ConsumberLabs - Nutritional supplements, Most Satisfied Consumers 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.

Customers being IBOs scarfing those vitamins to make PV. These are the same folks who fell for the 'Perfect Water' demonstrations. No bias there – asking the sales crew if they are satisfied with the products they try to sell.

Seeing as Amway Global (North America) has been stagnant or dropping in the last 5-6 years, how on earth does someone who sticks with the plan long enough 'make it' without a corresponding failure at the same level. They don't. Zero sum.

But that doesn't matter. All you have to have is someone who made it once to get their picture in the magazine - proof it works! If they included all those folks who 'stuck with it' but no longer qualify to get their picture in the magazine - that would be a REALLY big magazine.

Still waiting on that Amway secret document that both supports and refutes portions of the TEAM complaint.

Despite Icerat's protestations - Amway does indeed get to define who an "Amway Business Owner" is. Amway crows about 3M of them. Whatever the resulting tax actions come of that are irrelevant. Seems Icerat insists on portraying Amway and its business as something even Amway doesn't say it is.

NewtonTrino
13th September 2009, 05:22 PM
All of this is just semantic wrangling over pointless nothingness.

What really matters is how much money can you make when you do try to make money in it. So far I've seen little to no evidence that anyone with a smallish business can make any kind of profit. Nobody can even produce a business plan!

icerat
14th September 2009, 06:10 AM
What really matters is how much money can you make when you do try to make money in it. So far I've seen little to no evidence that anyone with a smallish business can make any kind of profit.

Yes you have, you've just chosen to ignore it.

Nobody can even produce a business plan!

Producing full business plans is a massive undertaking. The current one I have for another business I'm launching runs to well over 100 pages. A business plan for a startup Amway business requires nowhere near that work or detail, but I'm pretty certain that anything less would be rejected by you as insufficient. Not to mention that a business plan for an unspecified Amway business, with no idea of the individuals goal or circumstances (not even which country they might be in!) is simply impossible to develop.

So nice job - ask for the impossible then complain you don't get it and offer it as some kind of evidence of failure. :rolleyes:

Give me something to work with and I'll consider coming up with an outline at least.

Skeptic
14th September 2009, 11:24 AM
Using icerat's "logic", just about the best career choice anybody can make is to work part-time at McDonald's. After all, McDonald's is one of the largest and most successful companies in the world -- almost certainly larger and more successful than the company you work for right now. Certainly it's bigger and more successful than Amway.

Of course, just because the company makes money hardly means the people who work for it do. In McDonald's case, they -- by and large -- only make minimum wage, or slightly more.

H'm -- on second thought, at least working at McDonald's means you do make that minimum wage. In Amway, you don't even make that. Certainly a part-time job at McDonald's would be a step up, financially, to most Amway "Business" (ha!) owners.

It would also be a step up in terms of self-respect and usefulness. Working at McDonald's is filling a job doing something -- making and selling hamburgers -- that there is actually a demand for. Practically nobody except those in the Amway pyramid ever buy Amway's crap.

So perhaps taking a part-time job at McDonald's is what the average Amway guy should consider, after all.

Porkchopjim
14th September 2009, 11:47 AM
I submitted this before any potential Icerat response was posted, but let me see if I can assuage some of Icerat's frustration:

Your (Icerat's) references of awards and the dollar amounts of products that Amway sells are not disputed. But, they in no way indicate any level of true demand for the products.

It's the equivalent of saying that Christmas – which we can for this example all agree actually does exist – proves the existence of Santa Claus. And there's a LOT more proof of the existence of Santa Claus then there is of actual demand for Amway products: books, pictures, movies, stories, paintings, poems and the best proof of all - even to this day I get presents from 'Santa.' In fact, I see him probably 10-20 times each year around Christmas time. He gets a lot of credit for the amount of money that Christmas brings in – but most people know where the money really comes from.

In fact, if you take a room full of people split between those who believe in Santa and those that believe in true market demand for Amway products, I think the level of business acumen between the two would be pretty even.

Let me back that up with some common references we are both familiar with from your Prague trip:

1. Tex. He still thinks, after 16 years of intensive Amway training, that his self-consumption rebate check is profit. He makes sure to reinforce that to anyone who might be interested in 'doing business' with him. Thankfully, that doesn't occur any more – but it did and it may again. Also, he just recently endorsed buying 100PV-300PV of products from yourself in order to provide a good example to downline to do the same. That's Santa Claus demand right there.

2. Bridgett. One of the IBO exemplars. She did not know that you do not pay taxes on that portion of your Amway check that is from your personal consumption. When told that, she didn't even know how to figure out what portion that was! How long had she been an IBO at that time? 2 1/2 years at least?

Which means: she has been thinking, and saying, that she is successful and profitable without ever knowing how much, if any, profit she was making.

She's a system IBO, too, isn't she? Seems that would be something the 'training system' might slide your way after 2 1/2 years. No need to rush, after all! But, as proven from the DISMALL PERFORMANCE of IBOs and their understanding of THEIR OWN BUSINESSES - the systems perpetuate the existence of Santa Claus.

3. Then there's you, who has never built an Amway business to a level where it provides any sort of reliable income so has not direct knowledge of how easy or hard that is - yet you take the word of people who don't even know if they are profitable or not as gospel truth that Amway works.

4. The Big A I have nothing for or against.

5. Dave wins first place for business acumen because he quit.


All your 'awards' and 'sales' prove the existence of Santa Claus as much as they do of real demand for Amway products.

Perhaps your tagline needs to be amended as such:

"The vast majority of Amway products are purchased by consumers who do not know that it is to their economic disadvantage to do so, because they are taught the opposite and called 'Amway Business Owners'."

icerat
14th September 2009, 07:09 PM
Let's just summarize and be done with it.

Skeptic says "Amway sucks - because I say so"
PCJ says "Amway products sucks - because I say so"
Newton Trino says "Everybody in Amway around the world are crooks - because I say so"

And that's pretty much the extent of the argument.

Which of course cannot be argued against with mere triflings like facts and independent expert judgements.

I'll bow out again now and let you mislead folks for god knows how many more posts before I give up and correct the misinformation again.

Skeptic
14th September 2009, 09:46 PM
If every time you went to McDonald's...

...the cashier told you how GREAT it is to work for McDonald's,
...emphasized it is one of the biggest corporations in the world,
...asked you if you ever considered joining McDonald's,
...ranted against those LOSERS and QUITTERS who worked for McDonald's as teenagers but couldn't see the GREAT OPPORTUNITY of continuing to work there,
...was really, really proud of the great amount of money made in McDonald -- not by him, of course, but by the CEO and a few other top brass,
...read nothing but McDonald's company magazine,

If in addition,

...you would only ORDER the hamburger, it would arrive in the mail in a week or two,
...and the hamburgers cost about five times as much as they do now,

THEN McDonald's would, indeed, be like Amway, like the Amway folks claim it is.

In that case, of course, nobody except other McDonald's people would bother to go there -- why buy incredibly expensive products in an inconvenient way while being badgered about what a loser you are for not joining this "great opportunity", when you can get practically the same product in the burger king down the street?

In that case, also, the McDonald's owners would give their company all kinds of different names -- "Joe Schmoe's Hamburgers" -- to disguise the fact they're actually a McDonald's, since the very name of the company would get people running the other way.

This is exactly the situation in Amway, isn't it? The only people who buy their crap are other Amway people, and when talking to non-Amway folks they never say "I am an Amway IBO" -- it's always "I'm an independent business owner", "I own my own business, would YOU like to too?", etc., to hide the fact they're Amway folks.

NewtonTrino
15th September 2009, 10:24 AM
Skeptic nails it.

Icerat, it's a scam and the people running it are crooks. Just my opinion and the opinion of thousands of others. Come back when you've actually make a buck out of this scam.

Tex2
16th September 2009, 07:16 AM
Skeptic didn't "nail" anything. You can't have a discussion about Amway without including the tool scam. Also, YOU GUYS HAVEN'T SEEN THE RECENT PRICE REDUCTIONS - THEY ARE SIGNIFICANT!!!

metzomagic
17th September 2009, 01:37 PM
People, hi,

NewtonTrino and Skeptic are emphatically correct in their assertions that:

1. Amway/Quixtar is a pyramid scheme, whereby a very small percentage at the top of the pyramid make nearly all the money. For the rest it's a mug's game where they lose money every month pursuing an elusive dream. The harder you pursue it, the more you lose (that is, unless you can manage to weather out the losses for long enough to become a Direct).

2. Nearly all the money at the top is made from the sale of tools and functions. The further you get up the hierarchy, the higher the ratio of tools money to money made actually selling Amway product.

3. The tools aspect of Amway (a.k.a The System) is carefully hidden from the low level distributors. If they knew that all that money they spent on (mostly useless) tools and functions had the sole purpose of lining the pockets of the top level pins, they either wouldn't sign up for Amway in the first place, or would refuse to buy the tools or attend the functions!

4. Amway products are way overpriced due to the number of middlemen necessitated by the MLM structure. As such, virtually the only people that buy them are Amway distributors, or relatives and friends that have been pressured into doing so. I remember reading earlier in this thread that sales to non-distributors only accounted for 3 - 4 percent of total sales.

Enough said there. It's already been said many times in this thread.

Why I'm posting is... we skeptics have been looking for numbers to prove the above, and icerat hasn't exactly been forthcoming. I suffered through the first 20 pages of this thread to ascertain this. BUT, I remember reading the actual figures posted by an Emerald about 5 years ago. So finally this evening I remembered the guy's last name, googled it, and it was the very first result:

http://www.amquix.info/probst/system.htm

He's actually changed his last name on the pages (to avoid harassment) since I read them, but there are photos all over the place so I really don't see the point. The pages are from 1997, but they are *very detailed* (and very damning!). I'm sure you can extrapolate the numbers to today.

Also some very interesting stuff in there at the end about what happens when you try to buck the system. Reminds me a lot of Scientology.

Enjoy. Those pages really do blow the cover on that whole sordid mess that is Amway/Quixtar :-)

Regards,
MetzO'Magic

icerat
17th September 2009, 03:37 PM
People, hi,

NewtonTrino and Skeptic are emphatically correct in their assertions that:

Edited for moderated thread

1. Amway/Quixtar is a pyramid scheme,

False. Pyramid schemes are illegal. Amway was investigated by the FTC in the 70s and found not be a pyramid scheme. Similar investigations in other countries have come to the same conclusion. The myth however refuses to die.

whereby a very small percentage at the top of the pyramid make nearly all the money.

False. Top achievers pick up between 0 and 4% for most of the sales volume in their network. The other 25% in bonuses, plus 25-35% in retail markup, goes to those "lower down". (source: Amway Business Compendium, Amway Sales & Marketing Plan)

For the rest it's a mug's game where they lose money every month pursuing an elusive dream. The harder you pursue it, the more you lose (that is, unless you can manage to weather out the losses for long enough to become a Direct).

False. The majority of IBOs don't have any expenses, for those that do the expenses do not increase significantly as income goes up. Furthermore the term "direct" hasn't been used for a decade. Goes to show how up to date you are. :rolleyes:

2. Nearly all the money at the top is made from the sale of tools and functions. The further you get up the hierarchy, the higher the ratio of tools money to money made actually selling Amway product.

Partially False. While this may have been (and still be) the case for some leaders, typically those who were selling tools to more than just their Amway group, it is rare today even for them. In the largest single "system" in the world, "tool income" for Diamonds and above averages around 15% of total Amway-related income. Furthermore, just like with the Amway business plan, the larger your volume and the further away you are from the end-user sale, the less money you make, not more.

3. The tools aspect of Amway (a.k.a The System) is carefully hidden from the low level distributors. If they knew that all that money they spent on (mostly useless) tools and functions had the sole purpose of lining the pockets of the top level pins, they either wouldn't sign up for Amway in the first place, or would refuse to buy the tools or attend the functions!

False. The nature of the "tool system" has been advised to new IBOs for well over a decade and is highlighted on the distributor contract and various websites as well as corporate magazines. It is no secret.

4. Amway products are way overpriced due to the number of middlemen necessitated by the MLM structure.

False. The "number of middlemen" is about the same as traditional distribution (source: FTC vs Amway), and furthermore, as numerous price comparisons given on this thread have shown, the products are generally priced competitively. (see links earlier)

As such, virtually the only people that buy them are Amway distributors, or relatives and friends that have been pressured into doing so. I remember reading earlier in this thread that sales to non-distributors only accounted for 3 - 4 percent of total sales.

False. You apparently didn't bother reading most of the thread. 3-4 percent refers only to customer volume tracked through the Amway Global website. It does not track customers who register for distributor pricing (but are not acting as distributors) and does not track customer purchases direct from distributors rather than via the website. (source: Team vs Quixtar, California). As shown earlier, the majority of sales are to people who are not "participants in the scheme".

Enough said there. It's already been said many times in this thread.

Indeed. Pity you ignored most of the thread. Can anyone say "confirmation bias"? :covereyes

Why I'm posting is... we skeptics have been looking for numbers to prove the above, and icerat hasn't exactly been forthcoming.

I've supplied links to price comparisons, lists of independent books about Amway, independent academic studies on direct selling, and court cases with statistics.

How is that "not exactly been forthcoming"?

In contrast, NT, Skeptic, and now yourself have done little but provide opinions, a few anecdotes, and a mass of hasty generalizations.

I suffered through the first 20 pages of this thread to ascertain this. BUT, I remember reading the actual figures posted by an Emerald about 5 years ago. So finally this evening I remembered the guy's last name, googled it, and it was the very first result:

http://www.amquix.info/probst/system.htm

Surprise, surprise, Probst was a member of the same system NT has experience with. Another data point to support my position. When do you guys bring logic in to your decision making? Every single time you quote some "evidence", it comes from the same group and it's offshoots - representing a minority of Amway.

He's actually changed his last name on the pages (to avoid harassment) since I read them, but there are photos all over the place so I really don't see the point. The pages are from 1997, but they are *very detailed* (and very damning!). I'm sure you can extrapolate the numbers to today.

(1) Why do you think you can extrapolate this to all the other Amway groups in the world?

(2) Why do you think you can extrapolate this to today, when Amway has made significant changes to try and bring the type of things Probst talks about under control?

Also some very interesting stuff in there at the end about what happens when you try to buck the system. Reminds me a lot of Scientology.

Enjoy. Those pages really do blow the cover on that whole sordid mess that is Amway/Quixtar :-)

Oh yeah, an 11 year old website, from one of tens of thousands of Emeralds with experience in just one small part of the Amway world :rolleyes:

I again ask, and I assume I'll get no response, as usual -

(1) Why do all of these stories and complaints come out of just one Amway group, a minority of Amway?

(2) Can any of you "Amway skeptics" explain why, if all Amway is the same, these complaints don't come out of all the other Amway groups, a majority of Amway?

(3) Can any of you "Amway skeptics" explain why, if all Amway is the same and STILL the same, there has been virtually none of these types of complaints have been made by anyone with actual experience during the last decade, despite the internet making it easier for them to do so?

Porkchopjim
18th September 2009, 10:31 AM
Skeptic didn't "nail" anything. You can't have a discussion about Amway without including the tool scam.

We have discussed the tool scam. You failed to read it.


Also, YOU GUYS HAVEN'T SEEN THE RECENT PRICE REDUCTIONS - THEY ARE SIGNIFICANT!!!

You already said that. I already said "So what?" All that means is IBOs now have to buy more products to make their 300PV. Perhaps they're only significant to you and other cultists? It's just another ploy to make you feel good about buying your own products.

Porkchopjim
19th September 2009, 10:34 AM
False. Pyramid schemes are illegal. Amway was investigated by the FTC in the 70s and found not be a pyramid scheme.

With IBOs lying about how much they actually sell to people who aren't either themselves or other IBOs, Amway is found not to be a pyramid scheme. With only 3.4% of the products being sold outside of the pyramid, the vast majority of 'compensation' comes directly out of the pockets of the newest members.

False. Top achievers pick up between 0 and 4% for most of the sales volume in their network. The other 25% in bonuses, plus 25-35% in retail markup, goes to those "lower down". (source: Amway Business Compendium, Amway Sales & Marketing Plan)

Percentage does not show the actual dollar amounts involved. Nonetheless, at 100PV (3%) bonus rate, a full 1000% MORE compensation gets paid upwards. Given your other excuses about 'not lots of middlemen' - 1000% paid upwards certain is the vast majority of money.

False. The majority of IBOs don't have any expenses, for those that do the expenses do not increase significantly as income goes up. Furthermore the term "direct" hasn't been used for a decade. Goes to show how up to date you are. :rolleyes:

Of course. The 'majority' of IBOs don't do anything except kiss their registration fee goodbye. So – that's a loss that never gets recovered. The ones 'trying' to do something get even further in the hole. As shown earlier (by me) – MOST don't even know that. Their 'systems' don't seem to teach them that.

Partially False.

We'll take that as an admission of guilt and assign “Completely True” to it.


False. The nature of the "tool system" has been advised to new IBOs for well over a decade and is highlighted on the distributor contract and various websites as well as corporate magazines. It is no secret.

The extent of the 'nature' is a disclosure that says SOME people may make SOME profit from the tools that are sold to IBOs. What the new cult member does not realize is that their sole purpose is to buy tools to provide 'profit' to the heads of those 'systems' while buying their own products in order to make the 'business' look like it works.

False. The "number of middlemen" is about the same as traditional distribution (source: FTC vs Amway), and furthermore, as numerous price comparisons given on this thread have shown, the products are generally priced competitively. (see links earlier)

The 'number of middlemen' still suck up 34% of the price a new IBO pays for his products. The products have been shown to be grossly overpriced.


False. You apparently didn't bother reading most of the thread. 3-4 percent refers only to customer volume tracked through the Amway Global website. It does not track customers who register for distributor pricing (but are not acting as distributors) and does not track customer purchases direct from distributors rather than via the website. (source: Team vs Quixtar, California). As shown earlier, the majority of sales are to people who are not "participants in the scheme".

Using that same reference you try to abuse, the vast majority of sales ARE 'participants in the scheme' – even by your twisted definition as 'distributor pricing (with the associated additional price cuts for volume) are in fact participants – and benefactors – of the scheme.



(1) Why do you think you can extrapolate this to all the other Amway groups in the world?

Because all other Amway groups are modeled after the 'evil one' and their purpose it to provide a cover for 'tool system profits.'

(2) Why do you think you can extrapolate this to today, when Amway has made significant changes to try and bring the type of things Probst talks about under control?

The largest being 'accreditation'? That you even scoff at? I guess what you say in 'public' is different than what you say in 'private.' That would be another example of 'lying to make Amway look good.'

((1) Why do all of these stories and complaints come out of just one Amway group, a minority of Amway?

(2)Can any of you "Amway skeptics" explain why, if all Amway is the same, these complaints don't come out of all the other Amway groups, a majority of Amway?

They do come out of all other groups. Some groups are also just better at controlling their people (I.e. - failure is YOUR fault). Also, I suppose since no murder victims ever complained about their situations on the internet, we can ignore that, too.

How come there aren't hundreds of thousands of Amway proponents on the web saying it's all not true? Hmm... If we're going to use that as a measurement of who's right - you lose with no contest.

(3) Can any of you "Amway skeptics" explain why, if all Amway is the same and STILL the same, there has been virtually none of these types of complaints have been made by anyone with actual experience during the last decade, despite the internet making it easier for them to do so?

Seeing as Quixtar is only a decade old – and many of the complaints are about Quixtar (nee Amway) – it's not easy to explain how there have been 'virtually no' complaints about 'Amway' in the last decade unless you are being untruthful. I know which one it is!]

bookitty
19th September 2009, 12:04 PM
Icerat, you raise some interesting points.

My cousin said pretty much the same things about Arbonne (an Amway-type beauty product company). More so when she got back from one of their conferences, and doubly so when she tried to get me to join her in selling Arbonne.

There is one thing I just don't understand, perhaps you could help me out. Arbonne (and presumable Amway) make some decent products, priced at the mid range of the market. There is no reason why there shouldn't be a demand.

So if they are making a product that is salable, why the MLM? Why don't they just put it on the shelves, open small retail outlets etc? Why do they need individuals to push these products?

icerat
19th September 2009, 03:02 PM
So if they are making a product that is salable, why the MLM? Why don't they just put it on the shelves, open small retail outlets etc? Why do they need individuals to push these products?

Direct sales is actually a much older, more traditional method that predates our modern obsession with fixed retail outlets substantially. There's no "need" per se, it's just a different way to market. Spend your money on mass marketing or spend it on incentive programs.

The model has advantages and disadvantages. The biggest disadvantage is of course the problems of field management and reputation control - it's much easier to control your "message" through your own advertising and limited fixed retail locations than it is through an independent sales force. The prime retailing advantage is a better ability to connect with a consumer, demonstrate products, allow them to test them, and explain what differentiates them from others in the market place. With products like Amway's Nutrilite, or Arbonne for that matter, it allows the company to "tell the story" behind the product and why it's better than traditional nutritional supplements - something very difficult, and expensive, to do with mass marketing. With cosmetics and skin care, another popular staple in the direct sales world, it allows consumers to spend more time testing and trying products than is the case with fixed retail outlets.

The approach works. Nutrilite is #1 globally in nutritional supplements, about 3 times the size of it's nearest competitor. Avon is I think #4 in all cosmetics and skin care sales, Amway's Artistry is #9 in all, and #4 in "prestige" cosmetics. Other direct sales brands like Mary Kay and Oriflame are also in the top 20.

For a company (or distributor/retailer) starting out, it's also a very cost effective way to get a product to market, since the majority of your marketing costs aren't incurred until after you've made a sale. Bringing a new skin care product successfully to market would costs tens of millions of dollars using mass market advertising. With direct sales and a multi-level compensation plan that money isn't spent until after it's been generated through sales. As noted by the FTC in the case against Amway in the 70's, it allowed a then small company called Amway to successfully break into the well established detergent market with new, environmentally friendly products. That would have been virtually impossible for Amway to do through mass marketing.

metzomagic
19th September 2009, 04:31 PM
Interesting response. Did anyone read the expose regarding The System that was linked to here:

http://www.amquix.info/probst/system.htm

I'm flabbergasted. No comments regarding the actual figures, anyone?

NewtonTrino
20th September 2009, 12:42 AM
The only things amway are known for are scamming people and bad john tesh commercials.

Porkchopjim
20th September 2009, 03:54 AM
There is one thing I just don't understand, perhaps you could help me out. Arbonne (and presumable Amway) make some decent products, priced at the mid range of the market. There is no reason why there shouldn't be a demand.

That's icerat's main contention: there should be demand. His problem is that he can't prove it, because there is little to no demand outside the pyramid itself. Many MLMs do have substantial demand outside of the pyramid – see Avon. Some don't – see Amway.

Spend your money on mass marketing or spend it on incentive programs.

Seeing as the incentive programs are paid by the people who buy (and consume) the products – overwhelmingly the Amway 'business' owners themselves – Amway really doesn't do that choice.

But it's certainly to the advantage for Amway to do it the way they do: they don't suffer the risk or up-front cost of traditional marketing (which the businesses that do hope to recoup in sales). Amway has a captive customer base which has proven it will buy anything and everything that Amway puts out including overpriced vitamins and magic water. Amway 'business' owners, if they want to pretend to have any business at all, need to sell something...so they sell it to themselves. This has made Amway lots of money.

The biggest disadvantage is of course the problems of field management and reputation control - it's much easier to control your "message" through your own advertising and limited fixed retail locations than it is through an independent sales force.

Amway's 'sales force' is independent only because Amway, until very recently, didn't spend a single dime in educating or training them. Part of the smokescreen reforms touted by icerat are Quixtar University (last time I checked – three whole classes, with information so generic that it's hard to fathom why the revolution hasn't started already). The other part of the smokescreen are 'product conventions' that Amway hosts...although that only costs the IBO $25 to attend (good for an Amway product coupon!). Pretty sure Amway isn't losing much money that way, either.

Icerat's main contention is that there is nothing wrong with Amway except for its bumbling, embarrassing and sometimes outright criminal 'independent sales force.' Of course, there are the critics, who were CRUSHED by the courts when TEAM stole all their complaints (because none of the stuff TEAM claimed could have come up independent of the evil critics) and those complaints were proven false by a court of law! Well, not really, but that's his story!

The approach works. Nutrilite is #1 globally in nutritional supplements, about 3 times the size of it's nearest competitor.

At about 8 times the price and considering that the 'business owners' themselves are the ones consuming this product, that's not really something to crow about. But, you take what you can get in Amway.

For a company (or distributor/retailer) starting out, it's also a very cost effective way to get a product to market, since the majority of your marketing costs aren't incurred until after you've made a sale. Bringing a new skin care product successfully to market would costs tens of millions of dollars using mass market advertising. With direct sales and a multi-level compensation plan that money isn't spent until after it's been generated through sales.

Other MLMs seem to do both. They actually have customers outside the pyramid – Avon and Mary Kay sure do. Given the vast efficiencies that icerat claims – you'd hope that Amway's products weren't so grossly overpriced. But, it doesn't really matter. Amway products are not marketed outside of the pyramid because they've found a way to survive by selling within the pyramid just fine.

Tex2
21st September 2009, 07:29 AM
Interesting response. Did anyone read the expose regarding The System that was linked to here:

http://www.amquix.info/probst/system.htm

I'm flabbergasted. No comments regarding the actual figures, anyone?That site, and many others, are the basis of my site, which shines a bright light on the tool scam: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html

If you or anyone else would like to discuss this issue, my Skype ID is texlckbuster, and I live in the Central time zone. Propose a couple of days/times on my site, here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/talk-to-tex.html

icerat
21st September 2009, 12:42 PM
Interesting response. Did anyone read the expose regarding The System that was linked to here:

http://www.amquix.info/probst/system.htm

I'm flabbergasted. No comments regarding the actual figures, anyone?

What's to comment? It's a decade old "expose" of the one system which has generated all significant "tools" issues and has been known about for years.

But since you asked about the figures, here's some comments. He says regarding Weekend Seminar Ticket rebates -

As an Emerald, I receive about $10 per person. I’m guessing the Diamond bonus would be $20-50 per person

Note first of all that he's guessing. He doesn't know. I do know, for our system it's volume based, not pin based, and an Emerald would generally have enough volume that he'd be rebated $0 or $5 per ticket (after downline rebates were deducted) and a Diamond between $0 and $20, with most $15 and less. So on this one "income" alone, Emeralds who work with the org I work with make less than half what Probst was getting, and Diamonds a lot less than he was "guessing" - and this comparing figures nearly two decades apart. Inflation adjusted the difference would have been even bigger then.

With tapes he gives a rebate schedule that ranges from 30 cents to $1.10/tape at Emerald, based on maximum pin level ever achieved over "direct". As he mentions this means of course that if you reach a certain Amway pin level, you get this tape rebate forever, even if your Amway business shrinks - meaning "tool" income would become an increasingly larger proportion of your overall income. Indeed, it can even go up because if your say an Emerald and your downline Directs stop qualifying, you now get all of the rebate instead of having to hand some over to the dowline direct (an Emerald has at least three). Contrast this to the "system" I use, where the rebate scale is volume based. If your Amway group shrinks, your tool volume will also shrink, and so will your volume rebate.

Without going through a multitude of other differences between what he explains and how it differs with my experience, one thing makes it clear:

Probant states -

This makes my grand total income from the system at least $3500.00+ per month

In 2007 the average yearly tool income for an Emerald in the organisation I work with was only a little over $7000.

So Probant was making $42,000/yr "system" income, an Emerald today in a different system is making $7,000/yr "system" income.

Guys like Newton Trino will have you believe there's no difference in those numbers.

How can there be such a difference? Well, little differences all add up. First is things are a little cheaper. Next the profit is split amongst more people (pretty much anyone from "direct" (now called platinum) and above). Third is there's a lot less volume. Probant claimed something like 5000 tapes/month going through his business. An Emerald in our organisation would move at most of a quarter of that. Next is simple production quality and presentation seems higher in my organisation, with a variety of speakers from different groups all around the world, as opposed to hearing from your own upline, and professional audiovisual stuff handling everything. This of course leads to expenses being much higher. Probants group used (use?) directs and above to do all the work, unpaid. Our organisation employees hundreds of staff around the world to handle this stuff, so we can focus on building our Amway businesses. Of course, folk like Skeptic and Newton Trino would have you believe we abuse all these people and put them down for having jobs :rolleyes:. Au contraire, we're enormously thankful for the work they do.

Finally, as an interesting aside, Probant lists his "upline" Diamonds from Crown Ken Stewart down as -

Stewart, Rummel, Maxwell, Collinsworth, Hellinghausen

He has numerous audios and photos and quotes of these guys on the site.

All of them were kicked out of Amway years ago.

But oh yeah, all "systems" are the same, nothing has changed, and Amway just turns a blind eye to it all. :cool:

NewtonTrino
21st September 2009, 07:29 PM
So Emeralds in your system make $7k per year on average from the system?

Do you consider this ethical?

Tex2
21st September 2009, 09:12 PM
So Emeralds in your system make $7k per year on average from the system?

Do you consider this ethical?I consider it FAR less unethical than what they probably make from the tool scam, which is about 10-20 times more than $7/year.

icerat
22nd September 2009, 03:09 AM
So Emeralds in your system make $7k per year on average from the system?

Do you consider this ethical?

Do I consider it ethical for people to get paid speaking fees for sharing their expertise with others? Absolutely.

Do I consider it ethical for people to get volume discounts on things like cds and books? Absolutely.

Tex2
22nd September 2009, 10:19 AM
Do I consider it ethical for people to get paid speaking fees for sharing their expertise with others? Absolutely. >>>> Not if they say things that clearly imply they are NOT getting paid. Also not if they make the vast majority of their money from another source than the one they are promoting, and making that money from the back pockets of the people they are promoting to.

Do I consider it ethical for people to get volume discounts on things like cds and books? Absolutely.See above.

NewtonTrino
22nd September 2009, 07:14 PM
Do I consider it ethical for people to get paid speaking fees for sharing their expertise with others? Absolutely.

Do I consider it ethical for people to get volume discounts on things like cds and books? Absolutely.

So where do you draw the line? What if they did make $70k from tools and say $50k from amway products. Would that be ok?

icerat
24th September 2009, 01:04 AM
So where do you draw the line? What if they did make $70k from tools and say $50k from amway products. Would that be ok?

Depends on where it was from. For example, speakers fees from ones own group should be minimal, but if you're in demand as a speaker from other Amway organisations, or outside Amway, then as far as I'm concerned there is no limit, earn what you can.

Similarly with tapes/cds etc. They're really just another product moving through your own network. What's important isn't really how much profit you're making from them as the profitability of people buying them. They're an expense, and as such the amount spent on them should naturally be limited by how much income they're helping generate - which is the advice Amway has given for years. If that advice is followed then any upline profit is naturally kept at a relatively low proportion compared to Amway profit.

What's often missed though is that folk who have made really "big" money from tools, like Britt/Yager, have done so primarily because they were selling their tools and services outside their own Amway groups, both to crossline groups like Puryear etc and also to downline groups that were so far away from them as they were effectively making nothing from them through their Amway business.

I see no ethical problem with profiting from that either, however there are clear perception problems, particularly since many people have this misconception that Amway operates as some "endless chain". This isn't true. The great majority of people using the Britt/Yager system are effectively not part of Britt or Yager's Amway groups (they may be downline, yes, but they do not make Amway profit from them).

Where I think ethical problems have arisen is where speakers are speaking primarily to their own groups and profiting from it, or over-promoting tools to their own groups and profiting from it. This is particularly an issue when the level of profit is determined not by volume but by past Amway achievement level. Such a model disconnects tool profitability from Amway profitability and indeed, if your Amway group decreases in size it makes tools an increasingly more important factor in your own profitability - leading to an obvious temptation to overpromote them.

Tex2
24th September 2009, 02:53 AM
So where do you draw the line? What if they did make $70k from tools and say $50k from amway products. Would that be ok? You don't have to draw the line, it's already been drawn. Rich DeVos drew it in 1983, with the "Directly Speaking" recordings that are online, but never enforced. The number is 20%. Beyond that, the tail starts wagging the dog. Your 50/70 figure is 7 TIMES more than the limit Rich drew, and is still several times LESS than what many LCKs make regarding the proportion between tools and Amway. Also keep in mind ibofb doesn't count "speaking fees" as tools, even though the money leaves the IBOs' pockets and enters the upline for both. Why you continue to debate this rather than take action is beyond me, Newton.

NewtonTrino
24th September 2009, 02:32 PM
Why you continue to debate this rather than take action is beyond me, Newton.


What action? I'm not involved with amway or tools in any way other than arguing on the internet.

You could argue that posting here is the action I'm taking, to help warn people off.

Lurkers, you have been warned ;)

Tex2
24th September 2009, 06:24 PM
Depends on where it was from. For example, speakers fees from ones own group should be minimal, but if you're in demand as a speaker from other Amway organisations, or outside Amway, then as far as I'm concerned there is no limit, earn what you can. >>>> No, it doesn't matter where it's from, it depends if the LCKs were HONEST about it. Since they aren't, it's a major issue. Speaking for other groups is merely "cross pollinating between groups, and doesn't make it right. The proper "cross pollinization" should be allowing IBOs to attend a local major function, regardless of LOA/LOS. Speaking fees are no different than CD, book, voice mail, web sites, etc., they are all money coming out of IBO pockets and into the upline LCK pockets. Outside Amway speaking is VERY unusual, and not even worth mentioning, that's just a red herring issue.

Similarly with tapes/cds etc. They're really just another product moving through your own network. What's important isn't really how much profit you're making from them as the profitability of people buying them. They're an expense, and as such the amount spent on them should naturally be limited by how much income they're helping generate - which is the advice Amway has given for years. If that advice is followed then any upline profit is naturally kept at a relatively low proportion compared to Amway profit. >>>> Tapes/CDs are a similar issue, they also rip off IBOs and mislead them where the real money is being made. Tools are NOT "just another product moving through your own network", IBOs don't make any money from them like they do with Amway products, until they get to Platinum. If the truth was being told about the tool profit, THEN it wouldn't matter how much was being made from them, and most upline LCKs promote tools beyond what Amway "advises", because Amway has it buried in the rules/registration form, and the IBOs get POUNDED with the message to buy tools constantly. This results in VERY high tool profit. If it isn't high, the upline should open their books and PROVE it, as they would have NOTHING to be ashamed of.

What's often missed though is that folk who have made really "big" money from tools, like Britt/Yager, have done so primarily because they were selling their tools and services outside their own Amway groups, both to crossline groups like Puryear etc and also to downline groups that were so far away from them as they were effectively making nothing from them through their Amway business. >>>> Point? You mean when your group gets bigger, you are entitled to rip them off? ABSURD!!!

I see no ethical problem with profiting from that either, however there are clear perception problems, particularly since many people have this misconception that Amway operates as some "endless chain". This isn't true. The great majority of people using the Britt/Yager system are effectively not part of Britt or Yager's Amway groups (they may be downline, yes, but they do not make Amway profit from them). >>>> It is an ethical, moral, and probably a LEGAL problem.

Where I think ethical problems have arisen is where speakers are speaking primarily to their own groups and profiting from it, or over-promoting tools to their own groups and profiting from it. This is particularly an issue when the level of profit is determined not by volume but by past Amway achievement level. Such a model disconnects tool profitability from Amway profitability and indeed, if your Amway group decreases in size it makes tools an increasingly more important factor in your own profitability - leading to an obvious temptation to overpromote them. >>>> This is a part, but only a part, of the issue.

Tex2
25th September 2009, 03:50 AM
What action? I'm not involved with amway or tools in any way other than arguing on the internet.

You could argue that posting here is the action I'm taking, to help warn people off.

Lurkers, you have been warned ;)You know what action. Have you notified the FTC, FBI, media, Senator/Congress person, local DA, police, etc, and encourage others to do the same? Since you know a lot, spill the beans how much was paid out for tapes, books, functions, web sites, voice mail, etc. You could be a MUCH bigger help than merely posting on an obscure forum.

NewtonTrino
25th September 2009, 08:53 AM
You know what action. Have you notified the FTC, FBI, media, Senator/Congress person, local DA, police, etc, and encourage others to do the same? Since you know a lot, spill the beans how much was paid out for tapes, books, functions, web sites, voice mail, etc. You could be a MUCH bigger help than merely posting on an obscure forum.

That sounds like a complete waste of time. I'm not a fan of law enforcement action in cases like this as I think people need to more skeptical and not fall for this stuff. I want a society that is more free, not one where more activities are restricted. Caveat Emptor!

Education on critical thinking skills is the solution here not law enforcement.

Porkchopjim
26th September 2009, 11:17 AM
It's only fair and natural that Amway distributors, once they reach a certain level, should have their downline pay to hear them speak.

After all, while that individual's self-consumption business is about as large as everyone else's, that person's downline group is what qualifies them at the magical levels. Once they qualify, they get an even bigger cut of the work that their downline has done buying their own products. Now – there's nothing wrong with that. Having upline qualify at a higher bonus level doesn't cost an individual Amway business owner one red cent more (unless, of course, there's a 'big push' to help the upline 'qualify' so downline is pressured to make additional purchases to make that happen...but, of course, that NEVER happens...) - those downline Amway business owners have already kissed that money goodbye and will never see it again.

So it only makes sense that once that upline business owner has 'qualified', and makes more rebate money through additional percentages and bonuses, that the same upline business owner should now charge a 'little extra' to downline for guidance and support!

Some people even go so far as to claim that there is statistical evidence that paying that extra money to upline helps them with their Amway business. Edited for moderated thread. Some other people think that the information sold to them on CDs and such is 'very valuable' (that would be Tex2) - when it has been proven that used Amway CDs tend to cost less than blank CDs: just having that Amway drivel on them makes them less valuable than blanks! That same group of Amway wizards think that they make a profit from buying products from Amway - no selling needed!

Tex2
28th September 2009, 09:36 AM
That sounds like a complete waste of time. I'm not a fan of law enforcement action in cases like this as I think people need to more skeptical and not fall for this stuff. I want a society that is more free, not one where more activities are restricted. Caveat Emptor!

Education on critical thinking skills is the solution here not law enforcement.If we lived in a laissez faire society, I would agree with you. However, there is a clear expectation the government addresses abuses like these, such as the Madoff issue. Also, we pay TAX DOLLARS for regulation enforcement, and we should EXPECT these types of issues are acted upon. The LCKs hide behind the FTC "approval" of the Amway business, using it as a shield. It would be FAR better for the FTC to not exist, such that folks would do more of their own checking.

The FTC themselves told me they would act if more people complained, and I have to believe the other agencies I mentioned would act if they received additional input.

Why NOT describe what you know about the level of tool profit?

Porkchopjim
29th September 2009, 10:04 AM
Some people may just have admit that they made REALLY poor choices, were taken advantage of because they were greedy (the main scam hook: greed), and get on with their less than stellar lives instead of running around begging other people to complain on their behalf.

I'd bet a donut that if someone HAD made any money in Amway and got a cut of that 'tool profit' – there'd be a slightly different story.

caglvo
29th September 2009, 06:04 PM
My parents were in Amway when I was in middle school. True, they didn't make a lot of dough, but they got out and tried new things and met new people, some that they are still friends with. They even still buy some of the products, although I think they are super-overpriced and not worth it. Anyway, I think they had a good experience even if they didn't become supreme Diamond Executive Platinum Plus or whatever they call it now.

Tapes... ha! It's been a long time since I've seen or heard those!

NewtonTrino
29th September 2009, 07:17 PM
I'd bet a donut that if someone HAD made any money in Amway and got a cut of that 'tool profit' – there'd be a slightly different story.


More than likely you're right. There have been a few people that realized how screwed up the whole thing is and bailed so he could have ended up that way.

Most of the higher pins that I've met have been fairly good at reading and manipulating people as well as being able to spin things in their favor. Tex strikes me as more of a straight shooter. Think Bill Lumberg vs. Peter Gibbons.

Icerat on the other hand has diamond written all over him...

Tex2
29th September 2009, 07:28 PM
Some people may just have admit that they made REALLY poor choices, were taken advantage of because they were greedy (the main scam hook: greed), and get on with their less than stellar lives instead of running around begging other people to complain on their behalf. >>>> This isn't about "some people", it is about MILLIONS of decent people who were lied to about a business model. And I'm not begging anyone, I'm making suggestions on how to do something PRODUCTIVE rather than bitch and moan on a forum.

I'd bet a donut that if someone HAD made any money in Amway and got a cut of that 'tool profit' – there'd be a slightly different story.You would be coughing up a donut.

Porkchopjim
30th September 2009, 10:18 AM
Man, I enjoyed that donut I won!

Here's some more tips to help:

1. Stop selling, buying and using Amway products.

2. Stop pretending that the Amway 'training system tools' contain 'valuable information' when they perpetuate dependency on the 'system' while reinforcing and ensuring failure. They don't even have the decency to 'train' an IBO how to recognize whether they're losing or making money.

3. Stop pretending that if it weren't for the 'tool scam' that Amway would be a viable 'residual income life on the beach' business.

4. Stop pretending that if it weren't for the 'tool scam' you would be enjoying the 'residual income life on the beach' lifestyle.

5. Stop trying to vindicate the over $40K you lost in Amway by begging people to 'do something' - thereby 'proving' that it wasn't your poor choices and other shortcomings that caused such a stunning failure.

It only takes one really viable complaint from a reliable source to start an investigation...so either one of the two (or both) of the criteria haven't been met.

Once again, selling people useless 'Amway Tools' isn't illegal. Funny, but not illegal.

NewtonTrino
3rd October 2009, 09:28 AM
Calling them tools is the funny part. Cult indoctrination materials would be a more accurate description.

NewtonTrino
6th October 2009, 08:40 AM
I spent about 1/2 hour yesterday talking on the phone with a diamond. It was pretty much a complete waste of time because he wouldn't answer any questions about the size of his business, how much money he makes etc. The way these guys talk is all spin and bs. Bottom line he considered the size of his business and income level to be so personal he would never share it with anyone INCLUDING HIS OWN SON who is an active amway distributor! He said even when talking with other diamonds they never talk about income even in the context of "hey check out my new car it cost $X" or whatever. Personally I think he was lying to me constantly but he didn't say much so I can't pin him down on anything as he simply wouldn't give me anything interesting.

Bottom line is what except for the whistleblowers I have yet to meet a single amway distributor who will talk about their income, even off the record.

Kinda makes you think eh?

Almo
7th October 2009, 10:07 AM
Just curious. If you don't mind saying, how did you wind up talking to a diamond? And yeah, you're right it's weird he wouldn't talk about the size of his business.

NewtonTrino
7th October 2009, 01:00 PM
My Dad who is still active hooked me up with the guy. Basically I wanted my Dad to ask him how much he made but he just had the guy call me directly instead.

It was a very interesting conversation just not fruitful in terms of getting information. These guys have their own "unique" way of looking at the world, that's for sure. It's kind of like talking to an evangelical about their religion.

icerat
8th October 2009, 08:27 AM
Triple Diamonds Greg & Laurie Duncan are currently in bankruptcy, it looks like due to disputes with the IRS. There's lots of interesting docs on PACER you can look it, including his estimated assets of over $63 million dollars (the debts are about $8 million). With reference to how much he makes from Amway, for February - December 2007 (11 months) the following was listed -

Ordinary Income/Expenses
Income
* Bonuses Received $447,741.43
Total Income $447,741.43
Gross Profit $447,741.43
Expense
Promotional Product $6807.16
Performance Bonuses Paid $4171.03
Bank Service Charges $149.70
Rent - Office $26500.00
Misc business expenses $500.00
TOTAL EXPENSE $38,127.89

NET ORDINARY INCOME $409,613.54

While they qualified Triple Diamond in 1998 they've never been recognized as Founders Triple Diamond and are not on "founders council" so it's unlikely they are requalifying at that level. Greg Duncan was on the IBOAI as recently as 2006, which requires you to be at least qualifying Diamond, so their business, which qualified at somewhere between those levels. Since 2007 Amway has significantly increased the bonuses for qualified Diamonds and above, so their income has likely gone up somewhat.

NewtonTrino
8th October 2009, 04:28 PM
So how much was the tool income?

icerat
9th October 2009, 11:44 AM
So how much was the tool income?

It's a little difficult to be sure, but direct tool/ticket/tape income appears to have been, for the full year (jan-dec 07) -

WWG - Pool $131,197.18

In addition Greg Duncan's on the WWG (WWDB) board. From what I understand WWG is run by a board made up of the 20 largest diamonds in the organisation, and they're paid proportionally based on a forumla that includes the number of downline diamonds.

I'm pretty certain that is this income -

Management Fees - $188,053.47

Greg Duncan has brother and Crown Brad Duncan in his downline, so I expect his proportion of management fees would be one of the largest.

There's also -

Speaking Income - $134,875.00

However I don't know if that's entirely Amway related. Many successful Amway people earn money on the generic business/leadership/motivational circuit as well. Personally I don't consider speaking income to be an issue as it's primarily earned from outside your own Amway group. I think ethics issues arise if the expenses you are charging your own group are excessive in relation to their (and your) Amway incomes.

Expenses came to $139,658.23 (mostly venue rental)

Net "tool"+"speaking" income $320.273.81

So less than half his total Amway income. If you take out speaking fees and take just "tool profit" it makes up about 30% of his total Amway income.

Nowhere near the 90%+ that some claim, and it's pretty fair to suggest he'd be in the upper ranks of "tool income" earners for WWDB.

Duncan of course reported a lot more income than these two figures, he is for example part owner of Sarshela LLC, the company which makes XS energy drinks and successfully pitched Amway to market it. They also sell their products elsewhere. Note the XS deal wasn't some "given" inside deal, they failed for example in getting Amway to sell their "Fitness Water", that contract went to another company.

NewtonTrino
10th October 2009, 02:30 PM
So less than half his total Amway income. If you take out speaking fees and take just "tool profit" it makes up about 30% of his total Amway income.


THAT IS ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS! If you want to know whether Amway is a scam people here is the proof right from Icerat himself. 30% of his income (at least) is coming from selling crap to his downline. That's unabashadly scam territory.

Also remember this is what they DECLARED. This business has traditionally had a large cash basis...

Porkchopjim
11th October 2009, 10:44 AM
Net "tool"+"speaking" income $320.273.81

So less than half his total Amway income.


I wonder if Amway would be so quick to claim $320K from tools/system as "Amway Income."

Well, you heard it here first, folks!

"Less than half" is tapespeak for "almost as much" - Tool/system income is "almost as much" as real "Amway income."

Well, Amway DOES say that 'some IBOs may make money from the sales of tools and training.' So, at least it's all above board!

Telling people to buy their own products so you get a cut, and then tack on telling them to buy your other products, too, and I can see why some people would be excited about that business!

icerat
11th October 2009, 02:05 PM
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS! If you want to know whether Amway is a scam people here is the proof right from Icerat himself. 30% of his income (at least) is coming from selling crap to his downline. That's unabashadly scam territory.

The "crap" jibe aside, 100% of his directly Amway related income comes from selling things to Amway downline. That's what the business is all about.

Having said that, what you're conveniently ignoring is that he doesn't make any money from Amway for most of his downline. Just because someone is technically in your downline does not mean you should help them for nothing. Actually, techinically anyone downline of a platinum in his group is not part of his Amway downline - they're now frontline to Amway, that's how the plan works.

Do you think Duncan, or anyone else, should offer business related products and services for free to people they have no other financial interest in helping, and are in fact technically competitors?

Why should he not be profiting from supplying products and services to these people?

For that matter, why shouldn't he be able to profit from supplying training products and services to people from whome he's profiting by selling Amway manufactured and sourced products and services?

Seriously, assuming everyone knows the situation (and I'm aware that's not always been the case), where is the ethical problem?

IBO buys large amounts of SA8 washing powder, sells downline at a markup.
IBO buys large amounts of training CD, sells downline at a markup.

Purely from an ethical perspective, where is the problem with the second that doesn't occur with the first?

Also remember this is what they DECLARED. This business has traditionally had a large cash basis...

All businesses have traditionally had a large cash basis. Then things like credit cards got invented. What decade are you in exactly NT? In WWDB and most, perhaps all, systems these days all payments are made to WWDB, typically by credit/debit card or cheque. None is made to individuals. In 10 years I've never given cash to my upline for anything. In fact I've never paid my upline for any tools (incl seminars) in any way, let alone cash. I pay N21, always have.

You're just confirming how out of touch you are (a) with Amway today and (b) with Amway outside of your limited experience.

NewtonTrino
12th October 2009, 10:01 AM
Why should he not be profiting from supplying products and services to these people?


I'm fine with it as long as it's disclosed that at least 30% of his income comes from selling them tools.



You're just confirming how out of touch you are (a) with Amway today and (b) with Amway outside of your limited experience.Gimme a break. You're the own that supplied the numbers here. This kind of income from tools is clearly SCAM territory. Why isn't he giving some of that money back to people in the organization or charging less for the tools? Bottom line is that he's making tons of money selling tools into his organization.

I hear they're taking paypal for a lot of tools these days as well. Still doesn't mean there is no cash involved especially at large functions.

Your spin is ridiculous. This simply isn't a moral way to run a business.

icerat
12th October 2009, 12:02 PM
I'm fine with it as long as it's disclosed that at least 30% of his income comes from selling them tools.

Seriously, from a purely ethical standpoint, what difference does it make if it's 30%, 50%, or 90%?

Gimme a break. You're the own that supplied the numbers here.

And the numbers have what to do with your claim there's large cash amounts, which was what my comment referred to?

This kind of income from tools is clearly SCAM territory.

How? He's selling products and services to other businesses at prices generally cheaper than available in the generic marketplace. How is that a scam?

Why isn't he giving some of that money back to people in the organization or charging less for the tools?

Why doesn't he charge less for Amway products and give money back to people in the organization?

What effect do you think it would have on a networking structure if he charged less to his personal Amway group than he did to people outside his personal group?

Bottom line is that he's making tons of money selling tools into his organization.

Yes, and I don't have a problem with that. When I joined a decade ago I was shocked to discover people were shocked that businesses were (shock! horror!) making money selling products and services to people. I just assumed that there was "money in tools" because that's how businesses operate. It would be unusual if there wasn't! (note again: I'm aware some people may have been actively deceived, that's a different issue)

I hear they're taking paypal for a lot of tools these days as well. Still doesn't mean there is no cash involved especially at large functions.

Sure, limited amounts - paid to WWDB, not to individual diamonds.

Your spin is ridiculous. This simply isn't a moral way to run a business.

Selling specialist products and services at a markup (at a cheaper rate than is available from generic suppliers!) isn't a moral way to run a business? Care to explain why?

NewtonTrino
12th October 2009, 03:54 PM
Seriously, from a purely ethical standpoint, what difference does it make if it's 30%, 50%, or 90%?


None, those would all be scam numbers. The higher the number the bigger the scam.


And the numbers have what to do with your claim there's large cash amounts, which was what my comment referred to?


The cash thing was a complete side comment. I hereby withdraw it.


How? He's selling products and services to other businesses at prices generally cheaper than available in the generic marketplace. How is that a scam?


Well when you put it that way where do I sign up? Are you SERIOUSLY asking me this question?



Why doesn't he charge less for Amway products and give money back to people in the organization?

What effect do you think it would have on a networking structure if he charged less to his personal Amway group than he did to people outside his personal group?


Why does he have to charge so much to begin with?


Yes, and I don't have a problem with that. When I joined a decade ago I was shocked to discover people were shocked that businesses were (shock! horror!) making money selling products and services to people. I just assumed that there was "money in tools" because that's how businesses operate. It would be unusual if there wasn't! (note again: I'm aware some people may have been actively deceived, that's a different issue)


It's classic bait and switch. Your argument is that the tools money is now disclosed (which is a lie) and that makes it ok.


Selling specialist products and services at a markup (at a cheaper rate than is available from generic suppliers!) isn't a moral way to run a business? Care to explain why?

Because the downline are systematically lied to and manipulated into buying these "tools" which are nothing more than ways to line their uplines pockets. Just because you have a chance to "build your own network" and do the same thing doesn't make it moral. This is classic pumping suckers who they know will never be succesful for as much money as they can take. Good business? Yes! Moral? No.

This kind of business WITHIN AMWAY gives high level distributors an incentive to sign up people even if they aren't going to actively build their business or if they have no chance of building a large network. In the same way those at the top of a pyramid scheme constantly need new suckers coming in.

Anyway I think we already know where you stand on this issue. Nothing that your precious network21 does could possibly be bad under any circumstances. Bottom line, it's a business cult that preys on peoples dreams.

Come back and defend it once you've actually made some money doing it.

Porkchopjim
13th October 2009, 11:06 AM
Having said that, what you're conveniently ignoring is that he doesn't make any money from Amway for most of his downline. Just because someone is technically in your downline does not mean you should help them for nothing. Actually, techinically anyone downline of a platinum in his group is not part of his Amway downline - they're now frontline to Amway, that's how the plan works.


Wait a minute:

The qualifications of upline higher pins is NOT based upon the qualifications of downline pins...which is based ultimately on the combined volume of products ...that includes in the price of that product the money used to pay all bonuses upline...and so therefore Amway Diamonds, according to the Icerat Amway Plan do not make any money from most of their downline's sales?

Magic money pays that Diamond's bonus? And here I thought that all bonuses were paid based on the amount of products that are 'moved' (see 'self consumed') through the pyramid.

I'm pretty sure that's just a plain old bald faced lie that you're trying to feed here. The poor Diamond doesn't get any money from his downline's volume so he has to sell tools to make ends meet. Right.

Seems to me the rules say: “Qualified Diamonds and above who personally or foster-register 6 or more North American groups, each of which qualifies at the 25% Performance Bonus Level for at least 6 months of a given fiscal year, receive Diamond Bonus points and payment...”

My goodness. That sure looks like making money from downline sales.

icerat
13th October 2009, 11:32 AM
None, those would all be scam numbers. The higher the number the bigger the scam.

Why?

Well when you put it that way where do I sign up? Are you SERIOUSLY asking me this question?

Yes - but remember I'm talking tapes/books/seminars here. They're generally cheaper than you'll find in the generic sales & motivational marketplace.

Why does he have to charge so much to begin with?Again, it's cheaper than the public competitors. I can't see how anyone can seriously claim he is charging "so much".

It's classic bait and switch. Your argument is that the tools money is now disclosed (which is a lie) and that makes it ok.

How is it a "classic bait and switch"? For those who are perhaps less experienced in business than I, Amway has for more than a decade had multiple statements in a variety of different media telling people that folk make money selling tools. As I said IMO it's frankly a bit silly they need to, since it should be obvious, but where is the "bait and switch"? The guy makes significantly more on Amway products from his Amway business than he does from tools. For people not in a "management" position it's even more the case.

Because the downline are systematically lied to and manipulated into buying these "tools" which are nothing more than ways to line their uplines pockets.

What lies?

And I personally by this stuff because I find it of value. Whether it lines the pockets of the people who sell it is pretty irrelevant to me.

Just because you have a chance to "build your own network" and do the same thing doesn't make it moral. This is classic pumping suckers who they know will never be succesful for as much money as they can take. Good business? Yes! Moral? No.

You keep dodging the question. Why do you think it's immoral?

This kind of business WITHIN AMWAY gives high level distributors an incentive to sign up people even if they aren't going to actively build their business or if they have no chance of building a large network.

How so? (1) the great majority of people who join Amway *do not* buy tools. (2) the great majority of people who buy Amway products even within the network *do not* buy tools. (3) people who do buy tools *and use them* increase his Amway income (4) the only real way to increase his tool income is to successfully help people build their Amway income!

There is little incentive to sign up people who can't build a large network and great incentives to help people build large Amway networks - even if you just consider tool money.

Come back and defend it once you've actually made some money doing it.

lol. Already made money doing it, just like all the other evidence you chose to ignore it.

And in Amway news this week -


Amway ranked one of Korea's favourite foreign companies (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-koreas-favourite-foreign-company/)
Amway ranked one of China's top consumer brands (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-ranked-one-of-chinas-top-consumer-brands/)
Amway's Artistry wins "Favorite of the Year" consumer award in Ukraine in the Skin Care category (http://www.favor.com.ua/favorites/2008)
Amway's Nutrilite Positrim wins "Favorite of the Year" consumer award in Ukraine in the Weightloss Supplement (http://www.favor.com.ua/favorites/2008)
Triple Olympic Gold Medallist and World Record Holder, Australian Libby Tricket, becomes an Amway brand Ambassador (joining cricket legend Adam Gilchrist) (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-australia-signs-triple-olympic-gold-medallist-libby-trickett/)
Amway's Nutrilite ranked #1 in Nutraceuticals in India, with 15% (!!!) marketshare (http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/kitindian-market-for-nutraceuticals/373030/)
Amway brand ambassador Ronaldinho, playing with Nutrilite partnered AC Milan, the world's most successful football club, wins 2009 Golden Foot Award (http://www.acmilan.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=91925)


Yeah, just impossible to market these products and make money :rolleyes:

NewtonTrino
13th October 2009, 01:01 PM
Yes - but remember I'm talking tapes/books/seminars here. They're generally cheaper than you'll find in the generic sales & motivational marketplace.

Again, it's cheaper than the public competitors. I can't see how anyone can seriously claim he is charging "so much".


Look if you don't get why it's bad to suck a bunch of money out of your downline with overpriced "motivational" materials then we simply have a difference of opinion. The FACT that's it's happening doesn't seem to be in dispute.


How is it a "classic bait and switch"? For those who are perhaps less experienced in business than I, Amway has for more than a decade had multiple statements in a variety of different media telling people that folk make money selling tools. As I said IMO it's frankly a bit silly they need to, since it should be obvious, but where is the "bait and switch"? The guy makes significantly more on Amway products from his Amway business than he does from tools. For people not in a "management" position it's even more the case.


Hey, join amway and make money selling products. There is some money in tools but it's minimal and often doesn't cover expenses. Later on, hey BTW the higher pins make at least 30% of their income (more IMHO) from selling you motivational crap.

How is that not a bait and switch?



And I personally by this stuff because I find it of value. Whether it lines the pockets of the people who sell it is pretty irrelevant to me.


Look the same thing can be said about a lot of junk that most people should stay away from (other cult materials that are charged for like the scientology garbage).


You keep dodging the question. Why do you think it's immoral?


Because you are stealing money from the little guy who can least afford it. The simple fact is that these "materials" are nothing more than cult indoctrination materials.



How so? (1) the great majority of people who join Amway *do not* buy tools. (2) the great majority of people who buy Amway products even within the network *do not* buy tools. (3) people who do buy tools *and use them* increase his Amway income (4) the only real way to increase his tool income is to successfully help people build their Amway income!


1- so what? People that get "plugged in" are the ones that are of concern to the network.

2- What percentage of VOLUME are these people that aren't buying tools? Anyway the people that don't buy them are irrelevant.

3- That's a lie. I would love to see you prove that.

4- Also a lie. People can buy tools and make no money whatsoever in amway.



lol. Already made money doing it, just like all the other evidence you chose to ignore it.


Let me be more clear then. Come back when you've made more money than you would working at mcdonalds.

icerat
14th October 2009, 10:15 AM
Look if you don't get why it's bad to suck a bunch of money out of your downline with overpriced "motivational" materials then we simply have a difference of opinion. The FACT that's it's happening doesn't seem to be in dispute.

Of course it's in dispute. You claim they're sucking a "bunch of money" out of their downline with "overpriced motivational materials".

The reality is they are charging LESS than the generic competitors and I for one find them great value for money.

Again, what is immoral about selling products to help people develop their businesses?

Hey, join amway and make money selling products. There is some money in tools but it's minimal and often doesn't cover expenses.

Now you're completely changing the discussion. I've already stated I do not abide by dishonesty and misrepresentation.

Later on, hey BTW the higher pins make at least 30% of their income (more IMHO) from selling you motivational crap.

How is that not a bait and switch?

Whether it's bait and switch is irrelevant (though it's not), because dishonesty and misrepresentation is not the issue we're discussing. We both agree that's immoral.

Look the same thing can be said about a lot of junk that most people should stay away from (other cult materials that are charged for like the scientology garbage).

So what you're pretty much saying is that you are the universal arbitrator of what people should find of value?

On what basis do you make that claim?

Because you are stealing money from the little guy who can least afford it. The simple fact is that these "materials" are nothing more than cult indoctrination materials.

The "simple fact" is you have no idea what the vast majority of material is about because you've never read it or listened to it. You're just faking it. You have no experience at all outside of your little corner of the Amway world and are just assuming stuff. You're a fake.

Let's pick just some of the material I'm looking at ordering for some folk in my group today -

Att leva till 100%, Jim Loehr & Tony Schwarz (The Power of Full Engagement)
My price through "overpriced" Network 21 - 66SEK
Online Price comparison - cheapest price - 166SEK (http://www.prisjakt.nu/bok.php?p=6329)
Network 21 60% Cheaper
Newton Trino says "cult indoctrination material".
Steve Reinemund, CEO PepsiCO says - "A very compelling, pragmatic, and universal model for how change occurs. The program described so clearly in The Power of Full Engagement transformed the way that I and many of my executives look at our lives, not only at work but at home."
Scott Miller, CEO, Hyatt Corporation says "The principles articulated in The Power of Full Engagement have been important to me personally and as the leader of a large company."
Online reviewers - 4.5 out of 5 stars Amazon average (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743226755?ie=UTF8&tag=thetruaboamw-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0743226755)

So, who do I listen to, top business leaders like Miller and Reinemund, or Newton Trino, who has never read the book but once did some work for some amway diamonds he met through his uncle. :rolleyes:

I'm also looking at the new John Maxwell Maximum Leadership 12 CD set. I can't find it available elsewhere so it may have been recorded at seminars for Network 21. I met Dr Maxwell and had a 5hr seminar with him for 35AUD some years back through.

Newton Trino says "cult indoctrination"
United Nations, NFL, most Fortune 500 companies, and West Point all invite him to speak to their leaders and Amazon.com names him to their 10th Anniversary hall of fame. (John Maxwell on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Maxwell))


2- What percentage of VOLUME are these people that aren't buying tools? Anyway the people that don't buy them are irrelevant.

No they're not. They're customers, customers are important.

3- That's a lie. I would love to see you prove that.

That's a lie? How is he going to sell more tools? He needs more people to want to build Amway businesses. So to increase his tool volume, he needs more people building Amway businesses. What "proof" is needed? It's just plain logic.

4- Also a lie. People can buy tools and make no money whatsoever in amway.

Man, your logic box is really fried when it comes to this topic isn't it. How is going to sell more tools for building Amway to more people without having more people building Amway?

Let me be more clear then. Come back when you've made more
money than you would working at mcdonalds.

Done that too. Gee, back already. :rolleyes:

And in Amway news today -

Amway Founders Rich & Helen DeVos named "Pillars of Medicine" by Michigan State University for their contributions to the health science community (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/10/michigan_state_university_lure.html)

Such disreputable people and a disreputable business .... :rolleyes:

NewtonTrino
15th October 2009, 10:28 AM
Of course it's in dispute. You claim they're sucking a "bunch of money" out of their downline with "overpriced motivational materials".

The reality is they are charging LESS than the generic competitors and I for one find them great value for money.


The generic competitors are also ripoffs. Either way it's not the same product (see below).


Again, what is immoral about selling products to help people develop their businesses?


Nothing. That's not what these materials do though. Have fun proving that one.




Now you're completely changing the discussion. I've already stated I do not abide by dishonesty and misrepresentation.


Then why are you defending and involved with a business that is based on it?


Whether it's bait and switch is irrelevant (though it's not), because dishonesty and misrepresentation is not the issue we're discussing. We both agree that's immoral.


Then I ask again, why are you involved? Your involvement is implicit approval of the dishonestly and cult-like tactics that the AMO's have been using for decades.


So what you're pretty much saying is that you are the universal arbitrator of what people should find of value?


Just my opinion. I'm just trying to warn the suckers away. I know it's pointless task in the end (new one born every minute etc.)


The "simple fact" is you have no idea what the vast majority of material is about because you've never read it or listened to it. You're just faking it. You have no experience at all outside of your little corner of the Amway world and are just assuming stuff. You're a fake.


Sorry but I just talked to a DIAMOND on the phone the other day. I'm plugged in and I've listened to and read (including recently!!!) many of these so called "training materials". As someone that owns a successful business I think I'm qualified to determine the quality level of this materials more than someone like yourself.


Let's pick just some of the material I'm looking at ordering for some folk in my group today -

Att leva till 100%, Jim Loehr & Tony Schwarz (The Power of Full Engagement)
My price through "overpriced" Network 21 - 66SEK
Online Price comparison - cheapest price - 166SEK (http://www.prisjakt.nu/bok.php?p=6329)
Network 21 60% Cheaper
Newton Trino says "cult indoctrination material".
Steve Reinemund, CEO PepsiCO says - "A very compelling, pragmatic, and universal model for how change occurs. The program described so clearly in The Power of Full Engagement transformed the way that I and many of my executives look at our lives, not only at work but at home."
Scott Miller, CEO, Hyatt Corporation says "The principles articulated in The Power of Full Engagement have been important to me personally and as the leader of a large company."
Online reviewers - 4.5 out of 5 stars Amazon average (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743226755?ie=UTF8&tag=thetruaboamw-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0743226755)



So what's the point here? They do mix in "traditional" books and other types of materials. The vast majority of the materials are produced by the AMO's themselves though and most would not be sellable to anyone by amway people.



So, who do I listen to, top business leaders like Miller and Reinemund, or Newton Trino, who has never read the book but once did some work for some amway diamonds he met through his uncle. :rolleyes:


I'm a successful business owner in my own right. I hesitate to say it but probably way more succesful than you are. In my NOT SO HUMBLE opinion as someone who has seen amway through my dad for the last 30 years, knows many people in the business, supplied software to many large amway businesses I don't just think it's a scam, I KNOW it's a scam.

You on the other hand have yet to make any significant money from amway. Maybe you should re-evaluate your position?



Newton Trino says "cult indoctrination"
United Nations, NFL, most Fortune 500 companies, and West Point all invite him to speak to their leaders and Amazon.com names him to their 10th Anniversary hall of fame. (John Maxwell on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Maxwell))


There are several motivational speakers that cross over. What's your point? This doesn't represent the vast majority of materials that amway people buy from their upline. In fact the amway orgs do anything they can to get mainstream recognition for exactly this kind of conversation and for recruiting purposes (look Kiyosaki loves MLM, join amway!!!! for example).



No they're not. They're customers, customers are important.


Yes they are.. too bad you guys don't have any significant amount of them (again proof if you continue to lie and spin about this).


That's a lie? How is he going to sell more tools? He needs more people to want to build Amway businesses. So to increase his tool volume, he needs more people building Amway businesses. What "proof" is needed? It's just plain logic.


It's a lie because he doesn't need to grow the amway portion to continue to make money from them on tools. In fact tools are more profitable for dollar so the upline has an incentive to sell tools more than amway product.


Amway Founders Rich & Helen DeVos named "Pillars of Medicine" by Michigan State University for their contributions to the health science community (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/10/michigan_state_university_lure.html)

Such disreputable people and a disreputable business .... :rolleyes:


And this has relevance how?

Why don't you come back when you've made a decent amount of money from amway? Say $1M or so. When that happens you can tell us all how great it is.

You are already clearly on record as defending and agreeing with the tool scam. Why are you still bothering us with this stuff?

The company you are involved with recruits people under false pretenses, feed them a diet of "motivational" materials that brainwashes them into amway drones and then typically burns them out. When they come out the other side often times friendships, family relationships and business relationships have been shattered and need to be rebuilt. I've personally seen this happen to MANY people that I KNOW. You can continue to spin and say that the new organizations are better but we aren't chumps here.

Honestly you're making me want to actually start putting financial resources into the investigation of some of these AMO's, especially N21.