Ok, I'll contribute - Someone tells me Kurt Cobain didn't commit suicide

[ElMondoHummus]

All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide. Said aquaintance built that thesis on the following:


"That woman" (he was referring to Courtney Love) supposedly stood to gain the rights to his music.
His suicide note didn't read like one. He says it read more like a tribute to (forgot the name of the rocker) than anything else.
In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)).
"That woman" (Courtney Love again) was supposedly having an affair with another rock musician.
No, I haven't looked into any of this yet; I will shortly. And no, of course I don't buy into any of that at face value; everything from Von Däniken to medical quackery to 9/11 woo has taught me the value of holding off on opinions until I learn more. But, it just all sounded like any other conspiracy peddling I've seen (i.e. full of :rule10 ) that I just wonder how much conspiratorialism is actually scripted by bots. We have the following that you'll find in just about any conspiracy fantasy: 'Qui bono?', little supposed facts "contradicting" the "official story", there's a cover up of the truth, yadda yadda... of course I wonder what's been left out of the descriptions in order to make the fantasy read well.

This is hardly earth-shattering conspiracy peddling here, I know. But, since we're inagurating this oversection as a non-9/11 area, I figured I'd help out by posting something applicable. Anyway, I'll dig into this a bit more and see what I can find, but if anyone knows the truth behind any of those claims, feel free to post.

[Drudgewire]

Good place to start.

http://www.justiceforkurt.com/updates

Tom Grant is the name you want to research. This became his obsession back in 1994 and he's never really let go. As a huge Nirvana fan, to me the note reads exactly like the kind of suicide note I'd have expected Kurt to write and don't really buy any of the questionable evidence that has been brought up. But much like the Paul is dead CT it's a lot of fun to lose yourself in for a few hours.

Best part? That Courtney had El Duce of the Mentors killled too. If anyone doesn't know who the Mentors are, google them along with "PRTC." Tipper turned them from basic nobodies into a historical footnote.

[Axiom_Blade]

Best part? That Courtney had El Duce of the Mentors killled too. If anyone doesn't know who the Mentors are, google them along with "PRTC." Tipper turned them from basic nobodies into a historical footnote.

Ah, yes. There was a guy in my college English class who wrote his final paper on this.
That's PMRC, by the way.

[Drudgewire]

Ah, yes. There was a guy in my college English class who wrote his final paper on this.
That's PMRC, by the way.

Hahahaha, PRTC is one of our clients. I was wrapping up payroll when I typed that. :o

[fullflavormenthol]

I think there are a lot of these kind of theories about artists who died tragically. I rememember I had a friend in high school who would go on and on about this conspiracy that says that Tu Pac faked his death, and I classify the Cobain CT's in the same arena.

[fuelair]

All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide. Said aquaintance built that thesis on the following:


"That woman" (he was referring to Courtney Love) supposedly stood to gain the rights to his music.
His suicide note didn't read like one. He says it read more like a tribute to (forgot the name of the rocker) than anything else.
In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)).
"That woman" (Courtney Love again) was supposedly having an affair with another rock musician.
No, I haven't looked into any of this yet; I will shortly. And no, of course I don't buy into any of that at face value; everything from Von Däniken to medical quackery to 9/11 woo has taught me the value of holding off on opinions until I learn more. But, it just all sounded like any other conspiracy peddling I've seen (i.e. full of :rule10 ) that I just wonder how much conspiratorialism is actually scripted by bots. We have the following that you'll find in just about any conspiracy fantasy: 'Qui bono?', little supposed facts "contradicting" the "official story", there's a cover up of the truth, yadda yadda... of course I wonder what's been left out of the descriptions in order to make the fantasy read well.

This is hardly earth-shattering conspiracy peddling here, I know. But, since we're inagurating this oversection as a non-9/11 area, I figured I'd help out by posting something applicable. Anyway, I'll dig into this a bit more and see what I can find, but if anyone knows the truth behind any of those claims, feel free to post.
Elvis and Marilyn Monroe did it - just on a whim!!:D

[applecorped]

Here is the text of the suicide note in question:

To Boddah

Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand.

All the warnings from the punk rock 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community has proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating music along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guity beyond words about these things.

For example when we're back stage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begins., it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Freddie Mercury, who seemed to love, relish in the the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun. Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I walk out on stage. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do,God, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of people. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

On our last 3 tours, I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too ****ing sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Pisces, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition and empathy and a daughter who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of love and joy, kissing every person she meets because everyone is good and will do her no harm. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Frances becoming the miserable, self-destructive, death rocker that I've become.

I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much I guess.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, nauseous stomach for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Peace, love, empathy.
Kurt Cobain

Frances and Courtney, I'll be at your alter.
Please keep going Courtney, for Frances.
For her life, which will be so much happier without me.

I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU!


There has been speculation that the note was a message to his fans telling them he was quitting the music business and that the last part of the note was added afterword by someone else to make it appear to be a suicide note.http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_23915485c279836851.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12672)

[Aerich]

In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)).

A shotgun so long the trigger would be at his feet when the muzzle was in contact with some part of his face wouldn't be "full length", it would be "extraordinarily long".

Do a bit of googling and you'll find that the weapon was a Remington M-11 20 gauge. Remington's website gives the barrel length for a basic 20ga Model 11 as 26 or 28 inches. By eyeball estimate, I'd put the trigger about 6 inches behind the barrel. That doesn't seem so long that he couldn't hold the barrel in one hand and reach for the trigger with the other, especially by lowering one shoulder.

[I Ratant]

An Ex-LAPD Remington 870. 20 inch barrel
With the barrel under my chin, my thumb easily fits into the trigger guard.

[ElMondoHummus]

A shotgun so long the trigger would be at his feet when the muzzle was in contact with some part of his face wouldn't be "full length", it would be "extraordinarily long".

Do a bit of googling and you'll find that the weapon was a Remington M-11 20 gauge. Remington's website gives the barrel length for a basic 20ga Model 11 as 26 or 28 inches. By eyeball estimate, I'd put the trigger about 6 inches behind the barrel. That doesn't seem so long that he couldn't hold the barrel in one hand and reach for the trigger with the other, especially by lowering one shoulder.

An Ex-LAPD Remington 870. 20 inch barrel
With the barrel under my chin, my thumb easily fits into the trigger guard.

Aha! See, this is what I mean by "little supposed facts". That's just like the steel melting 9/11/WTC canard. In that case, who says that the building's steel had to melt (we all know this of course); in this case, who says the shotgun was that long?

I'd go find that aquaintance and tell him this, but I'm afraid I'd ruin his nice, little entertaining fantasy. What would he do for fun after that? :)

Anyway, like I said earlier, this myth seems to totally follow the standard model of a conspiracy fantasy.

And on that note, as an aside: It's sorta funny that so far I've not seen many people try to defend Courtney Love against the "Qui Bono" argument. :D Yeah, it's mean, but it cracks me up.

[parky76]

dont tell me.....cobain was about to reveal the true assassins of JFK and the CIA/Mossad had him knocked off?

[applecorped]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_23915485c5abc3dbcb.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12685)

[applecorped]

oops, sorry

[applecorped]

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Cobain/Comparisons.html

Handwriting analysis. Comments?

[l0k0]

The handwriting argument seems contradictory to me. They argue he couldn't have survived the dose, written the note, and discharge the shotgun, yet they expect his handwriting to be consistent? I would appreciate it if the comparison included handwriting from Cobain from a previous occasion.

[Tbone]

Considering the amount of heroin in his system at the time I highly doubt he was able to aim straight up, or what actually was straight up, as opposed to what he thought was up. Then take into its high efectiveness as a painkiller.


Besides, if Nirvana still existed, they'd have probably ended up like Metallica by now ;)

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I just tried to "pull" the trigger of a shotgun (mossberg 500) with my feet while wearing shoes. It's a little awkward but it can be done. You don't have to move the trigger very far at all. Took about 10 seconds (how long that is in "heroin time" I don't know).

LLH

[I Ratant]

There's photos from the Aleutians in WWII showing Japanese soldiers who suicided using their rifles rather than surrender. And their big toes.

[alex04]

Good place to start.

http://www.justiceforkurt.com/updates



am relieved the site isn't call truthforkurt.com

[Axiom_Blade]

am relieved the site isn't call truthforkurt.com

The Cobain Truth Movement?

[ronpaulisright]

I think there are a lot of these kind of theories about artists who died tragically. I rememember I had a friend in high school who would go on and on about this conspiracy that says that Tu Pac faked his death, and I classify the Cobain CT's in the same arena.

You also have Andy Kaufman faking his death.

Don't leave out the fact that el duce passed a polygraph where they asked if courtney love hired him to kill cobain.

[ronpaulisright]

Cobain was gonna blow the lid off of the jews plan to hijack airplanes and fly them into the world trade center and the pentagon.

[alex04]

Cobain was gonna blow the lid off of the jews plan to hijack airplanes and fly them into the world trade center and the pentagon.

So someone blew the lid off Cobain instead? Maybe it's not the first time Silverstein has told someone to 'pull it', eh?

Ah the world of conspiracies..

[fullflavormenthol]

Well Ronpaulisright just contributed my hypothesis about the this forum. 1.) Threads in the non-9-11 section will not likely make it to page 5 without being connected in some way, shape, or form to 9-11. 2.)This likelihood of a connection to 9-11 increases exponencially if the topic deals with the death of a famous or well-known person. 3.) The amount of logical steps leaped by the person connecting the event to 9-11 is proportionate to the amount of time it will take them to blame the conspiracy on the Jews.

I dub my hypothesis; Menthol's Law (though not a law in any scientific sense.):D

[Axiom_Blade]

Don't leave out the fact that el duce passed a polygraph where they asked if courtney love hired him to kill cobain.

Polygraphs are not lie detectors.

[ronpaulisright]

Polygraphs are not lie detectors.

I mean he passed a lie detector test.

Kurt Cobain was wasted beyond belief of the chance that he was able to pull off blowing himself off with a shotgun. The other argument is that it's a matter of tolerance if he can handle offing himself while being under the influence of a certain amount of Heroin.

[fullflavormenthol]

I mean he passed a lie detector test.



Yeah that is the colloquial name for a polygraph, but it isn't really a lie detector in the scientific sense. What we mean is that it isn't evidence in court, because it can't detect truth or falsehood.

[ronpaulisright]

Yeah that is the colloquial name for a polygraph, but it isn't really a lie detector in the scientific sense. What we mean is that it isn't evidence in court, because it can't detect truth or falsehood.

I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test.

Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E.

El duce was later killed by a train.

[Drudgewire]

I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test.

Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E.

El duce was later killed by a train.

I promise there was more to any release than a polygraph test. For much fun reading: http://antipolygraph.org/

It's been a long time since I read about the Cobain conspiracy, but wasn't El Duce's train death supposedly part of the controversy? Like the body was supposedly placed on the track?

Geez, three days later and I'm still embarrassed about the PMRC brainfart. :o

[Matthew Best]

Kurt Cobain was wasted beyond belief of the chance that he was able to pull off blowing himself off with a shotgun. The other argument is that it's a matter of tolerance if he can handle offing himself while being under the influence of a certain amount of Heroin.

Would you mind writing that again? I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say.

:boggled:

[ronpaulisright]

I promise there was more to any release than a polygraph test. For much fun reading: http://antipolygraph.org/

It's been a long time since I read about the Cobain conspiracy, but wasn't El Duce's train death supposedly part of the controversy? Like the body was supposedly placed on the track?

Geez, three days later and I'm still embarrassed about the PMRC brainfart. :o

They were going to release this dude from prison, IF, he could pass lie detector test.

According to the A&E documentary of course.

[ronpaulisright]

Would you mind writing that again? I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say.

:boggled:

One of the arguments stated is that Cobain was too wasted to execute his suicide. The drugs would hinder his ability to operate a shotgun.

The opposing argument states that it is an issue of tolerance. If he had tolerated an average fix, he could have handled the deed.

[Whiplash]

They were going to release this dude from prison, IF, he could pass lie detector test.

According to the A&E documentary of course.


Which A&E documentary, specifically?

Or is this another insane, ridiculous claim with nothing to back it up?

[ronpaulisright]

Which A&E documentary, specifically?

Or is this another insane, ridiculous claim with nothing to back it up?

Edited for civility
I don't remember. It stuck in my mind because I was surprised that they were going to let him go if he passed a lie detector test. He failed.

Edited for civility

[Whiplash]

In other words, an insane claim you cannot back up.

See, if we could see this video, we could see if your interpetation of what happened is accurate. You suggest that we simply accept your word that this happened and that your interpetation of what was happening is correct.

Forgive me if I require something more substantive. But feel free to insult me personally a bit more if it helps bolster your opinion.

[ronpaulisright]

In other words, an insane claim you cannot back up.

See, if we could see this video, we could see if your interpretation of what happened is accurate. You suggest that we simply accept your word that this happened and that your interpretation of what was happening is correct.

Forgive me if I require something more substantive. But feel free to insult me personally a bit more if it helps bolster your opinion.

No. City confidential or American justice. One of those series'. Just some white guy incarcerated for murder. They offered a deal to him. Pass a polygraph, and you are released.

[CptColumbo]

If it was a parole, I would buy it since polygraph examiners are permitted to testify in front of judges in various types of hearings (Motion to Revoke Probation), and it is the condition of parole for many sex offenders. However, AFAIK few states even allow polygraph results to be disclosed in court (and then with stipulations) and would only be looked upon as expert testimony.

Here's the episode guides, if something looks familiar let us know:
http://www.aetv.com/city_confidential/city_episode_guide.jsp?episode=137954
http://www.aetv.com/american_justice/aj_episode_guide.jsp?episode=304862

[ronpaulisright]

It might have been murder. It might not.

It MIGHT have been a death row case.

What stuck out was the fact that they were going to let this guy go home, if he passed a lie detector test.

[Drudgewire]

It might have been murder. It might not.

It MIGHT have been a death row case.

What stuck out was the fact that they were going to let this guy go home, if he passed a lie detector test.

There is no way that was a convicted criminal. If it's simply a suspect being held for questioning (which I guess could count as incarcerated), that makes some sense to try and get him to take one. Even those of us who don't believe in the reliablility of the polygraph agree it's a great tool for making someone confess after taking one.

If they don't have enough evidence to indict someone yet, why not take a shot with the polygraph? It's not like if he'd "passed," they'd have stopped searching for evidence against him.

I just associate "incarcerated" with "convicted." Or at least "indicted and held without bail." Trust me, in those instances there are too many legal roadblocks in place for it all to be undone by any one action. Hell, convicted rapists who are found innocent later due to DNA evidence don't just get to walk out the door the second the results are confirmed. Legal system doesn't work like that.

[deep44]

All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide.


I thought I remember reading somewhere that the door to the room/garage (whatever) where he killed himself was locked from the inside. Not like that really proves anything, but it would add to the hypothetical complexity of the murder.

I really believe this is a situation where Kurt Cobain fans didn't want to believe that this person they idolized would commit suicide. The first natural question to ask is "who benefits", and that pretty much always points to the spouse (emotional distress notwithstanding).

There was one thing that seemed awfully weird to me, and that was the fact that Kurt Cobain, a heroin addict, chose to shoot himself in the head with a shotgun. In my opinion, that's akin to a professional base jumper committing suicide by tying bricks to his legs and jumping in a lake. Perhaps his tolerance to the drug was too high to overdose in the traditional "quick and painless" way - who knows - I just always thought that was odd.

[ronpaulisright]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the door to the room/garage (whatever) where he killed himself was locked from the inside. Not like that really proves anything, but it would add to the hypothetical complexity of the murder.

I really believe this is a situation where Kurt Cobain fans didn't want to believe that this person they idolized would commit suicide. The first natural question to ask is "who benefits", and that pretty much always points to the spouse (emotional distress notwithstanding).

There was one thing that seemed awfully weird to me, and that was the fact that Kurt Cobain, a heroin addict, chose to shoot himself in the head with a shotgun. In my opinion, that's akin to a professional base jumper committing suicide by tying bricks to his legs and jumping in a lake. Perhaps his tolerance to the drug was too high to overdose in the traditional "quick and painless" way - who knows - I just always thought that was odd.

yeah. Hmmm... The best way to kill yourself is the heath ledger way. Look up the drug cocktail he had on the internets. You will see that is the best way.

Courtney is all distraught because she has a MOUNTAIN of guilt on her chest.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Go to Blockbuster, rent Kurt & Courtney. You'll see the El Duce interview a couple days before his tragic "fall on the tracks." Also, you'll hear Courtney's own father state that he has no doubt his daughter had Kurt killed.

[Drudgewire]

Go to Blockbuster, rent Kurt & Courtney. You'll see the El Duce interview a couple days before his tragic "fall on the tracks." Also, you'll hear Courtney's own father state that he has no doubt his daughter had Kurt killed.

That movie is a joke. I watched it at the very height of my CT phase when I was willing to believe almost anything, and even then it stunk to high heaven.

Courtney's father (Hank Harrison) has quite a few credibility issues of his own... including being accused of conceiving his daughter via date rape and giving her acid as a child.

[gumboot]

yeah. Hmmm... The best way to kill yourself is the heath ledger way. Look up the drug cocktail he had on the internets. You will see that is the best way.


He died of an accidental prescription drug overdose...

[gnome]

It might have been murder. It might not.

It MIGHT have been a death row case.

What stuck out was the fact that they were going to let this guy go home, if he passed a lie detector test.

Another way of looking at it is, even if the justice system in that location thought that a lie detector test would be reliable, the evidence indicates that it isn't.

[ronpaulisright]

He died of an accidental prescription drug overdose...

sure he did:rolleyes:

CT phase

it's not a phase.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Courtney's father (Hank Harrison) has quite a few credibility issues of his own... including being accused of conceiving his daughter via date rape and giving her acid as a child.

Accused of? Have we checked the credibility of those who accused him?

Anyway, the giving acid to Courtney as a baby thing would help explain a lot.

[applecorped]

I met Courtney Love in at a hotel reception desk in 1993? The receptionist was asking her for ID and she didn't have any. Courtney was yelling at the receptionist and pointing to a magazine with her picture in it saying "this is me! Don't you know who I am?". My friend asked her for an autograph and Courtney wrote "this lady is a bitch, Courtney". I must admit Courtney had no makeup on at the time and I couldn't help notice how absolutely hideous she looked. Lots of acne scars and pock marks. Very sad.

[Whiplash]

it's not a phase.

It doesn't seem like one when you are neck deep in one, but later in life, you'll see it as such.

[Drudgewire]

Accused of? Have we checked the credibility of those who accused him?

Well, it was Courtney. And to be honest, I wouldn't call a single member of that family credible. :p

[Ocelot]

I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test.

Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E.


Curious. Can you remember any more details to search on? Perhaps the name of the incarcerated man, or the name of the TV program. There may have been factors other than a polygraph test and I'd like to find out if that's the case.

ETA, I see others have allready asked this and provided the episode guides to City Confidential and American Justice. I've flicked thorugh them and can't find any obvious mention of a polygraph or lie detector test.

Google for polygraph in the Citi Confidential Episode Guide (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-10%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.aetv.com%2Fcity_confiden tial%2Fcity_episode_guide.jsp+polygraph)

Google for "lie detector" in the City Confidential Episode Guide (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-10%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.aetv.com%2Fcity_confiden tial%2Fcity_episode_guide.jsp+%22lie+detector%22)

Google for polygraph in the American Justice Episode Guide (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-10%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.aetv.com%2Famerican_just ice%2Faj_episode_guide.jsp%3F+polygraph)

Google for "lie detector" in the American Justice Episode Guide (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-10,GGLD:en&q=site%3ahttp%3a%2f%2fwww%2eaetv%2ecom%2famerican% 5fjustice%2faj%5fepisode%5fguide%2ejsp%3f+%22lie+d etector%22)

Google for "polygraph" anywhere on the aetv site (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://www.aetv.com+polygraph&hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-10,GGLD:en&filter=0)

Google for "lie detector" anywhere on the aetv site (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://www.aetv.com+%22lie+detector%22&hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-10,GGLD:en&filter=0)

The closest match I can find seems to be this episode of Crime 360 (http://www.aetv.com/listings/episode_details.do?episodeid=282950)

Please take no offence when I suggest that you may have remembered or understood this incorrectly.

[bynmdsue]

A&E has scrubbed all trace of the program's existence away in order to discredit RPiR.The Bastards!

[CptColumbo]

Please take no offence when I suggest that you may have remembered or understood this incorrectly.
That's my take on it. I usually watch those types of shows while working on the computer, and don't pay very close attention unless it's particularly interesting (i.e. a case I've read about or took place in MN).