Roswell; why would the government cover it up?

[fullflavormenthol]

Not seriously trying to start stuff, but if the Roswell incident was the result of the type of experiments the government claims it was (basically high altitude parachute experiments) why would they have to cover it up? I mean nothing in the incident seems that extreme to have to cover it up? Do you people hear think that possibly something is involved in the Roswell incident that is not included in the final report?

--Just contributing to the CT forum...

[Whiplash]

I thought the balloons were used to try to detect atomic explosions that may be taking place in Russia, as a means of guaging their progress in their own bomb. You wouldn't exactly want to advertise that you were capable of, and actively seeking to detect what they were doing.

[fullflavormenthol]

I thought the balloons were used to try to detect atomic explosions that may be taking place in Russia, as a means of guaging their progress in their own bomb. You wouldn't exactly want to advertise that you were capable of, and actively seeking to detect what they were doing.
True... And I would except that, but that official report mentioned that they actually dropped dummies from parachutes; why not just claim that?

(seriously I am just making conversation)

[Whiplash]

Yes, I have seen/read that they claim the "bodies" would be from tests they did with dummies. I'm afraid I'm not fully familiar with that part of the whole "case closed" story. Did they offer any official explanation as to why they would be keeping the dummy tests secret as well? I'm sure someone here will have some theories.

[fullflavormenthol]

Yes, I have seen/read that they claim the "bodies" would be from tests they did with dummies. I'm afraid I'm not fully familiar with that part of the whole "case closed" story. Did they offer any official explanation as to why they would be keeping the dummy tests secret as well? I'm sure someone here will have some theories.
You know, I hope so. Not saying I agree with the alien theory, but I never could figure out why the govenrmnet would have to lie about dummies.

[gumboot]

I heard a theory that it was a result of an aircraft that crashed carrying live nuclear weapons. This would explain the bodies, the wreckage, the security and "quarantine" type conditions. It would also explain why the US Government kept silent and allowed the alien stories to spread - if the US public had known that aircraft were carrying live nuclear weapons over the USA it would have probably caused a major outcry.

Anyway, don't know how much credibility such a theory has, but I found it to be an interesting take on things.

[Spektator]

The late 1940s Project Mogul balloons were designed to detect Soviet nuclear tests. It was a Project Mogul balloon said to have crashed in Roswell. The dummies came from an early fifties experiment and they were not dropped by balloon, but from high-altitude aircraft (the purpose was to work on ways to save pilots who ejected at high altitudes). The argument is that the dummies (ca. 1954) became conflated with the balloon parts (1947) in hindsight as memories became merged and confused. The dummies and the crashed balloon were not part of the same incident.

[Whiplash]

Thanks for the specifics Spektator. I guess then it just leaves the question that the OP asks.. why did they feel it necessary to make the dummy drops top secret? Were they even top secret to begin with? I don't even know that. If those were never top secret, then that pretty much closes the whole subject I guess.

[GreNME]

Do you people hear think that possibly something is involved in the Roswell incident that is not included in the final report?

I absolutely do, I just don't think it had to do with aliens. There's not enough credible evidence for me to conclude extraterrestrial beings, but there's definitely enough evidence to conclude a cover-up. Considering the time frame and the part of the country I'm willing to guess it had something to do with the Cold War or something that the government didn't want making its way to Soviet ears.


I recall nearly 20 years ago when one of the TV shows at the time ran some supposed "leaked" footage of alien autopsies and I recall the thrills that ran through me watching it. I imagined our whole universe had just opened wide.

Nowadays I'm far more skeptical and don't just take TV's word for things any more. :)

[Darat]

Thanks for the specifics Spektator. I guess then it just leaves the question that the OP asks.. why did they feel it necessary to make the dummy drops top secret? Were they even top secret to begin with? I don't even know that. If those were never top secret, then that pretty much closes the whole subject I guess.

Don't forget we are talking about a time of extreme paranoia in USA culture (in regards to the Cold War) following on from a time when the government had very legitimate reasons to make most military matters highly top secret (i.e. WWII).

The starting assumption was to classify everything as secret.

[Reheat]

I don't know that anyone has a totally definitive answer to this "mystery", but I can add a few clues that might help.

One of the things that added to the mysterious nature of the incident from the very beginning was an AF Major from Walker AFB in Roswell that discovered some of the pieces at the alleged crash site. He indicated that the material was "not of this world". This individual was a Public Relations type and was perhaps given more credibility than he deserved. In spite of his rank PR type people usually don't have much clue other than what they are told. I believe this was one of the initial catalysts that fueled CT's.

Another catalyst (as has been mentioned) was the overall secrecy surrounding experiments directly related to Cold War intelligence. Officially the AF said it was a weather balloon, but it was actually detection devices for nuclear fallout.

Walker AFB closed in 1967 and that closing devastated the local economy. I firmly believe that this incident was elevated to prominence by local folks during this period as a method to increase tourism to the area. As anyone who has ever been in that area knows it is virtually a wasteland with not much to see or do. There is a nearby ski resort and that's about all that attracts tourists in addition to the UFO stories. That 1947 incident still attracts people to the area, even today.

These issues are my take on the incident. It's very similar to other CT's in that the lack of totally satisfactory information revealed by the gubmint is replaced by hearsay, exaggerated accounts, and downright false speculation. In essence, this is what CT's are all about and this one is no different.

[Drudgewire]

I never could figure out why the govenrmnet would have to lie about dummies.



...




Too easy. What am I, some kind of hack? http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/colbert.gif

[van_dutch]

It seems to me that if one provided detailed information about high altitude pilot survival testing, it could lead adversaries to an estimated operating altitude of secret aircraft (ie U2 with an altitude of 85000+ ft). In regards to this, they didn't lie but they didn't disclose full details (if I remember correctly). Why advertise your capabilities to your enemies? If they know where to look for something, it gives a better chance of finding it.

[WildCat]

I blame the typical Caucasian stance.

Oh, and van dutch makes a good point. ;)

[van_dutch]

Another thought, there are offices in the government dedicated towards counter intelligence. I'm sure that they enjoy that many believe what goes on around Groom Lake is actually aliens and not new technology. In other words, the panicking crazies do their job for them.

[Denver]

Don't forget we are talking about a time of extreme paranoia in USA culture (in regards to the Cold War) following on from a time when the government had very legitimate reasons to make most military matters highly top secret (i.e. WWII).

The starting assumption was to classify everything as secret.

I think this is likely the best answer to the OP. And once someone is working in a project that has an umbrella classification of secrecy, they would be paranoid to mention anything about even the most innocuous element, lest they get themselves in big trouble. And when trying to hide the secrecy elements by being evasive, it begins to sound like a cover-up.

Which it probably is. But not of anything really important.

[steve s]

but I never could figure out why the govenrmnet would have to lie about dummies.

I think Van Dutch hit the nail on the head in post #13. Any disclosure of information could have given the Soviets an estimate of what we were capable of.

It brings to mind the Colossus computer. During WWII, the British built the world's first electronic computer to crack the German Enigma codes. After the war the computer's existence was kept secret for decades. It wasn't until the mid '70s that the British government even acknowledged it ever existed.

The reason for keeping it secret for so long is that you don't want your enemy to know what you were capable of at some point in the past because they could then extrapolate what you're capable of at the present time. By the mid '70s, advancements in solid state electronics had rendered any need for secrecy obsolete.


Steve S.

[Rolfe]

I recall borrowing a book about Roswell from a friend, hoping to find out about the alien autopsy thing. The whole incident was dissected, with pictures of the weather ballons and explanations for why the duct tape had "writing" (stylised flower designs) on it and so on. They also went into the economic reasons for the revival of the cold tale so many years later. But no mention of alien autopsies.

I asked my friend about that when I returned the book. He said the whole alien autopsy strand was dreamed up after the book was published, hence no reference in the analysis - yes, it's possible the book was published more than 20 years ago. Anyway, my friend (who is an SF buff) also said that the alien autopsy footage was shown to be taken from a bad SF B-movie, and it was known which movie it was. I think he told me, but I've forgotten now.

These myths have legs.

Rolfe.

[fullflavormenthol]

I recall borrowing a book about Roswell from a friend, hoping to find out about the alien autopsy thing. The whole incident was dissected, with pictures of the weather ballons and explanations for why the duct tape had "writing" (stylised flower designs) on it and so on. They also went into the economic reasons for the revival of the cold tale so many years later. But no mention of alien autopsies.

I asked my friend about that when I returned the book. He said the whole alien autopsy strand was dreamed up after the book was published, hence no reference in the analysis - yes, it's possible the book was published more than 20 years ago. Anyway, my friend (who is an SF buff) also said that the alien autopsy footage was shown to be taken from a bad SF B-movie, and it was known which movie it was. I think he told me, but I've forgotten now.

These myths have legs.

Rolfe.
Yeah. I have noticed that the mythology surrounding Roswell has increased even in the 12 so years I have been paying attention to it. Looking back at older books there is less fantastical information about it.

[Travis]

When I visited Roswell back in 1999 I ran into someone who claimed that the report of bodies was really from the government carrying out inhumane experiments on captured Japanese soldiers and not related to the UFO crash that he did believe in as well. Anyone else heard of this angle?

[fullflavormenthol]

When I visited Roswell back in 1999 I ran into someone who claimed that the report of bodies was really from the government carrying out inhumane experiments on captured Japanese soldiers and not related to the UFO crash that he did believe in as well. Anyone else heard of this angle?
No, but it is interesting.

[AvarianParakeet]

Well, I guess I'll throw in what I remember. The History Channel did a whole special when some Roswell documents were declassified. I would normally discount it, but the whole thing was pretty rational.

The only stretch was that it was an intentionally bad cover-up. A military testing accident is hard to explain away and the secret might get out. It also took the line that it was a seismic detection system that we didn't want the Soviets to know about. The conclusion was that they intentionally let the ideas of a secret alien cover up take hold because those are far easier to dismiss. Sort of a bait and switch tactic. Give them something too spectacular to be true and they'll except a really basic answer (in this case the story that it was just a weather balloon).

The interesting things it added was the other government testing in relation to some early space theory. They were basically just testing the effect of upper altitude on people and animals. They had actual military archive footage of them loading a dead bear into a body bag and it looked like the theorized cleanup that took place. They claimed it was possible that stories and rumors from these tests based the ones for the aliens.

The same was said for the "alien bodies." They had a report about one of the tests going really bad and a soldier apparently had his skull almost crushed. The result was that it swelled very badly and the report described a face similar to the "alien." A nurse in the hallway could have mistaken it for that.

There were other stories but those were the ones that I remember clearly. Interesting theory for how the mass hysteria built up though.

[fullflavormenthol]

Well, I guess I'll throw in what I remember. The History Channel did a whole special when some Roswell documents were declassified. I would normally discount it, but the whole thing was pretty rational.

The only stretch was that it was an intentionally bad cover-up. A military testing accident is hard to explain away and the secret might get out. It also took the line that it was a seismic detection system that we didn't want the Soviets to know about. The conclusion was that they intentionally let the ideas of a secret alien cover up take hold because those are far easier to dismiss. Sort of a bait and switch tactic. Give them something too spectacular to be true and they'll except a really basic answer (in this case the story that it was just a weather balloon).

The interesting things it added was the other government testing in relation to some early space theory. They were basically just testing the effect of upper altitude on people and animals. They had actual military archive footage of them loading a dead bear into a body bag and it looked like the theorized cleanup that took place. They claimed it was possible that stories and rumors from these tests based the ones for the aliens.

The same was said for the "alien bodies." They had a report about one of the tests going really bad and a soldier apparently had his skull almost crushed. The result was that it swelled very badly and the report described a face similar to the "alien." A nurse in the hallway could have mistaken it for that.

There were other stories but those were the ones that I remember clearly. Interesting theory for how the mass hysteria built up though.
You know I think, and this is just my opinion, that Rowell is a good case study in the factors that lead to a CT. I mean think about it this way, we were in the beginnings of the cold war; and many of the alien invasion fiction were allegories for communist invasions. CT's around Rowell developed around this idea that the government was keeping us in the dark, perhaps to a danger far greater. Still it was safer to be concerned with Aliens invading, because aliens invading was somehow easier to accept than nuclear war happening for reasons none of us could understand.

Flash forward to today, and the truth movement. I think that somehow to them believing that the government attacked its own people for world domination is easier to accept than a foreign and extremist movement wanting to kill people for reasons we can't understand. Just my impression though.

NOTE: Sorry to the mods for bringing up 9-11, but I felt it relevant to my point. Still sorry.

[Sunstealer]

I also think that the general populace of America were seeing huge technical innovations in aviation within a short space of time. The jet engine and rocketry were making giant strides and this lead to aircraft that looked strange e.g. no propeller! The public's imagination was also stimulated with the greater spread of television and access to those great sci-fi movies of the 50's and later decades. Mix it all in with a large dose of anti-commie propaganda/paranoia and there is a good recipe for people inventing and believing their own stories.

I'm sure that Roswell was covered up, but not for the reasons of crashed alien craft. Governments, the military and companies with contracts don't spill the beans because it lets your enemies know what you are upto. That secrecy becomes institutionalised. What's interesting is that once upon a time people understood the need for this secrecy because it could directly affect them eg WWII. Everyone knew that careless talk cost lives. Gradually people became less of this mindset, but those at the sharp end didn't. This produced a divide and makes those not in the know suspicious and the good old rumour mill and some Chinese whispers will do the rest.

[MG1962]

A friend of mine many years ago worked in the Australian defense force as a missle design specialist, working with US experts - he always maintained that Roswell and the dummies was about heat shield experiments.

As he pointed out, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for early space missions, and the developement of true ICBM missles was how to get them back through the atmosphere, they didn't want the Russians to get an idea how advanced US research was on the topic.

[dustbunny]

I think the government covered it up because it was easier in the 1940's to do so. Nowadays with camcorders and media coverage it would be a lot more difficult to hide something so big. Me and my husband were actually talking about Roswell last night and we've wondered if the government have kept it secret because they wanted to be the first to advance their own technology, giving them an advantage worldwide. Area 51 isn't a closely guarded secret for nothing.

[moon1969]

So George Adamski wouldn"t write a book about that and take peoples money?

[moon1969]

Kenneth Arnold was a businessman. Note a businessman? And to think that some people believed Arnold. Well that is how easy it is to fool people.

[Aitch]

If anyone's interested, the annual Roswell festival starts on Thursday, the 3rd of this month. Finishes on Monday, the 7th.

Further information here:
http://www.roswellufomuseum.com/schedule.htm

[pgwenthold]

The thing I never understood about Roswell: here you are, living right next a government base where some of the most cutting edge technology research, particularly in the area of aeronautics, is going on. Of course there will be strange things afoot. I'd be more shocked if there weren't.

I live not too far from an air force base, and we have seen weird things in the sky on occasion, things we couldn't recognize. But I just attribute it to something happening at the base. I can tell you, if I called them up and asked what's going on, they aren't going to tell me. They will claim ignorance.

There was actually a huge explosion just south of the base one night. It was thought it might be an plane crash. The base said, "We don't know anything." Maybe true, maybe not. I don't know if I ever actually heard what it ended up being.

[wvbig]

Has anybody here seen "Steven Spielberg Presents: TAKEN" on the scifi channel? In case you didn't, it's a 58 year story told from the viewpoint of if a UFO really did crash at Roswell. I think it's the best science fiction piece of all time. If you saw it, what did you think about the scenario they came up with?

[Horatius]

When I visited Roswell back in 1999 I ran into someone who claimed that the report of bodies was really from the government carrying out inhumane experiments on captured Japanese soldiers and not related to the UFO crash that he did believe in as well. Anyone else heard of this angle?



Yes, I've heard of this.


As part of an X-files episode.


And I'm not kidding.

[dropzone]

Okay, this will be my first telling of this here (cuz I'm a newb), and please warn me when I try to pull it again. Uncle drop was AF Intel from WWII until the early 60s. After that he edged into civilian jobs about which he could not speak. In the late 40s he was stationed at Wright-Patt, where the Roswell wreckage was supposedly brought. Uncadrop was a good soldier and kept his mouth shut, but near his death, while looking at the stars with dropdad, whose clearance (for the obvious reason that he told me about it) was lower, said the merest, "They're real, you know." Out of anybody else this would've been either wishful thinking or nonsense, but Dad and I were familiar with how good Unca Tom was at changing the subject when it came to his work, and we added considerable weight to it. Not enough to convince us, but enough to add a jaundiced eye to how we viewed the evidence.

[INRM]

I remember two claims for people who believed in ET's were

1.) After the movie "War of the World's" and people thought it was real and jumped out of windows, the government thought it would induce panic and kept it secret

2.) If aliens were acknowledged to exist it would conflict with a great many religions, and would result apparently in everybody becoming atheists, and thus anarchists and there would be rioting everywhere.


I don't necessarily say I believe that E.T.'s have visited earth. But I have heard these claims before and I'm just paraphrasing them.


INRM

[Klimax]

...
2.) If aliens were acknowledged to exist it would conflict with a great many religions, and would result apparently in everybody becoming atheists, and thus anarchists and there would be rioting everywhere.
...

or they'd modify doctrine and reinterpret texts to eiliminate conflict with reality.

[CurtC]

Thanks for the specifics Spektator. I guess then it just leaves the question that the OP asks.. why did they feel it necessary to make the dummy drops top secret?

Were the dummy drops secret?

Project Mogul was a secret. It was recently hypothesized that some people, many years later, conflated memories of the dummies (several years after Mogul) with the Mogul crash. I'm not aware that the dummy tests were secret, just that they were not mentioned before because no one thought it was important.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Okay, this will be my first telling of this here (cuz I'm a newb), and please warn me when I try to pull it again. Uncle drop was AF Intel from WWII until the early 60s. After that he edged into civilian jobs about which he could not speak. In the late 40s he was stationed at Wright-Patt, where the Roswell wreckage was supposedly brought. Uncadrop was a good soldier and kept his mouth shut, but near his death, while looking at the stars with dropdad, whose clearance (for the obvious reason that he told me about it) was lower, said the merest, "They're real, you know." Out of anybody else this would've been either wishful thinking or nonsense, but Dad and I were familiar with how good Unca Tom was at changing the subject when it came to his work, and we added considerable weight to it. Not enough to convince us, but enough to add a jaundiced eye to how we viewed the evidence.

Of course stars are real. :confused:

[dudalb]

:alien011:



It's not an official JREF Alien themed thread until this smiley is posted.

[rwguinn]

I don't know that anyone has a totally definitive answer to this "mystery", but I can add a few clues that might help.

One of the things that added to the mysterious nature of the incident from the very beginning was an AF Major from Walker AFB in Roswell that discovered some of the pieces at the alleged crash site. He indicated that the material was "not of this world". This individual was a Public Relations type and was perhaps given more credibility than he deserved. In spite of his rank PR type people usually don't have much clue other than what they are told. I believe this was one of the initial catalysts that fueled CT's.

Another catalyst (as has been mentioned) was the overall secrecy surrounding experiments directly related to Cold War intelligence. Officially the AF said it was a weather balloon, but it was actually detection devices for nuclear fallout.

Walker AFB closed in 1967 and that closing devastated the local economy. I firmly believe that this incident was elevated to prominence by local folks during this period as a method to increase tourism to the area. As anyone who has ever been in that area knows it is virtually a wasteland with not much to see or do. There is a nearby ski resort and that's about all that attracts tourists in addition to the UFO stories. That 1947 incident still attracts people to the area, even today.

These issues are my take on the incident. It's very similar to other CT's in that the lack of totally satisfactory information revealed by the gubmint is replaced by hearsay, exaggerated accounts, and downright false speculation. In essence, this is what CT's are all about and this one is no different.
This is very close to the truth, I suspect.
I grew up in Lovington (90 miles SE of Roswell), and actually lived in Roswell from 1953-1955. It was never an issue, nobody talked about it, you never heard about it.
In 1964, when the area voted Republican, Walker AFB was slated to be closed (CT theory is thataway--->), and it pretty much clobbered the Pecos Valley (Lovington, Hobbs, et al were oil, as was Artesia, and Carlsbad had the potash mines, and stayed healthy).
The stories didn't start surfacing till sometime in the 80's.
I returned to Roswell in 1996, and actually was on the Festival Committee for 99, and 2000.

[zaphod2016]

"They're real, you know."

Is it possible Uncadrop had a pro-ET belief independent from his job?

I want to believe, I just need something more than "my dad's brother said so".

[twinstead]

That's what sets this whole alien intelligence stuff apart from silly conspiracy theories like 9/11 and the Moon Hoax. We as skeptics WANT there to be aliens. I think it would just about the coolest thing ever.

I just need some evidence

[Whiplash]

Were the dummy drops secret?

Project Mogul was a secret. It was recently hypothesized that some people, many years later, conflated memories of the dummies (several years after Mogul) with the Mogul crash. I'm not aware that the dummy tests were secret, just that they were not mentioned before because no one thought it was important.


I had forgotten this post, nearly a year old, wow!

But I didn't know if they were secret either. I first responded to the OP regarding the high altitude balloons to listen for nuclear detonations, but he mentioned the bodies and high altitude parachute drops, and wondered why they were secret. I was just continuing with him. I didn't know if they were or were not. Looking back, I said that if they weren't secret at all, then that pretty much closes the subject the OP was asking, as we had a rational explanation for the secret status of the Mogul stuff.

Thanks for the specifics Spektator. I guess then it just leaves the question that the OP asks.. why did they feel it necessary to make the dummy drops top secret? Were they even top secret to begin with? I don't even know that. If those were never top secret, then that pretty much closes the whole subject I guess.

[sackett]

...the report of bodies was really from the government carrying out inhumane experiments on captured Japanese soldiers....

Hey, I like that. It gets around the ludicrous idea of humanoids evolving on another planet, and it has evil guvmint guys doing evil guvmint stuff.

Or maybe they were Japanese all right, but had been sent to an alternate universe by Hiroshima, and came back looking that way beacause, you know, it was a NALTERNATE universe.

We could be getting paid good money for this stuff. A dollar a word easy.