Cardinal calls for health warnings on condoms

[Marc]

Now not only is the catholic church spreading lies about the effectiveness of condoms, they are trying to get their lies printed on the packages.:mad:

telegraph article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/14/wcond14.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/10/14/ixworld.html)

If only they put half as much effort into cleaning up their own mess as they do into fighting the 'evils' of contraceptives and gay rights.

[arcticpenguin]

In other news, many Catholic officials are still disappointed that the Pope did not win the Nobel prize, but insist he is above caring.

Not that I'm trying to draw any linkage between these two issues...

[ceo_esq]

Here's what The Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940506.html) concludes about this issue:My point is this: for whatever reason--pores, improper use, etc.--real-world research shows condoms don't offer 100 percent protection against AIDS. Maybe not, say the AIDS experts, but if you tell people that they'll use it as an excuse not to use condoms. To which I reply: the arguably greater danger is that they'll use condoms the way some weight watchers use Diet Coke--as an excuse to continue dangerous behavior (e.g., promiscuous sex, not gay sex per se).Cecil's point of view seems reasonable enough. There's got to be a way to navigate both of these dangers. Perhaps it consists in simply advising people in more forceful terms that, on the one hand, condoms, if properly used, can reduce the risk of pregnancy or AIDS, and on the other hand that they hardly offer an ironclad guarantee against either eventuality. Which, when you think about it, is not really inconsistent with the cardinal's remarks in that article.

The cardinal suggested that condoms are not "safe", but it is obvious from the totality of his remarks that he does not think that condoms themselves constitute a disease- (or pregnancy-)causing agent. Clearly, he means that they are not "failsafe", and would like to see that reflected prominently on the packaging. Which part of this was a lie?

I don't have a box of condoms handy, but my experience in the legal profession leads me to suspect that if I carefully read the instruction pamphlet in one, I would find a disclaimer substantially similar to the one alluded to above hidden somewhere in the fine print. Accordingly, lie or no, it's probably already printed in the packaging, and I doubt that the condom manufacturers would feel comfortable expunging it.

[Cleopatra]

ceo_esq

Does the Catholic Church orders for abstinence because it participates in the anti-AIDS campaign ?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
ceo_esq

Does the Catholic Church orders for abstinence because it participates in the anti-AIDS campaign ? Hi Cleo -

I'm not sure I grasp your meaning (sorry, up too late last night). Could you clarify?

[Cleopatra]

Yes of course!

Does the Catholic Church participate in the anti-AIDS campaign? I am asking because I think that the Catholic Church doesn't participate in this campaign.

Am I right?

[Marc]

Originally posted by ceo_esq

Which part of this was a lie?


The lie is the repeated claim that condoms (including latex condoms) have holes in them small enough for HIV to pass through. That is why they keep repeating such statements as the HIV virus being 450 times smaller than sperm.

They build on that lie to misslead people into thinking that all condoms offer no protection at all. There is a huge difference between talking about the reasonable risks involved with proper condom use and the message the Catholic Church is trying to get out. Such as in the documentary linked to in another thread where a nun tells an AIDS patient he should not use a condom when having sex with his wife.

The cardinal is not talking about condoms not being "failsafe", he is trying to push the churches agenda of not allowing any contraceptive for any reason.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
I don't have a box of condoms handy, but my experience in the legal profession leads me to suspect that if I carefully read the instruction pamphlet in one, I would find a disclaimer substantially similar to the one alluded to above hidden somewhere in the fine print. Accordingly, lie or no, it's probably already printed in the packaging, and I doubt that the condom manufacturers would feel comfortable expunging it.

It is already printed and rather clearly on the package indeed and the warning concerns AIDS and contraception but this makes the Cardinal's suggestion even more suspicious though.

ceo_esq, please don't say that the Cardinal has never seen a package of condoms and this is the reason why he made this suggestion... :)

[Cleopatra]

This issue has really pissed me off because it proves the absurdity of certain Institutions like the Catholic Church.

Let's see what do we have here :

I am quoting the article:

1.The Roman Catholic Church is fundamentally opposed to artificial contraception

2.abstinence outside marriage is the only way to stop the spread of HIV, the virus that causes Aids.

It is none of the Catholic Church's business to have an opinion about condoms in geranal and about their safety in particular since : 1. The Church is fundamentally opposed to contraception and 2. it considers that the only way to stop the spread of AIDS is abstinence outside marriage.

So, they make such announcements just to scare people.

Good ole Holly Inquisition...

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Clearly, he means that they are not "failsafe"
Then why didn't he say that?

Probably for the same reason the pope used the word for "slave" when he really meant the word for "person with a debt."

Maybe you should buy the Church a dictionary, so they can get a little better at saying what you want them to say.

I confess I'm not surprised that your still shilling for the Church even over this incredible attempt to kill off a few thousand of their own; but I am a little disappointed. I was hoping to be wrong.

[Dancing David]

Warning! The gum in this machine tatstes like rubber!


Not a toy! To avoid risk of suffocation, Do not apply condon over your head of the head of others. Not to be used to imitate comics on stage.

Not for the use of smuggling drugs through customs.

Use of a condom may imperil your immortal soul, maufactur assumes no resposnibility inherent or implied if user looses rights to thier soul as a consequence of condom use.

For enetertainment purposes solely.

[severin]

There was a programme on the BBC a few days ago called Sex and the Holy City which showed an African archbishop backing up claims that not only do condoms have holes in but they are impregnated with HIV. AIDS advisers are not allowed to recommend condoms in some African countries. There was clear evidence that the Vatican and Church leaders are LYING about AIDS and condoms. Even a Vatican spokesman who was interviewed perpetuated the lies. One of the worrying things was footage of Bush cosying up to the Pope.

The same programme discussed the Vatican attitude to abortion - an eight year old girl in Nicaragua (?) was raped and got pregnant and the Church said she should have the baby.

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but Pope John Paul I was a liberal reformer who wanted to investigate the Vatican's substantial investment in an Italian pharmaceutical company that made the contraceptive pill. He also wanted to loosen up the rulings on contraceptive use. He lasted 33 days.

The sad moral is, that all the Catholic Church cares about is the number of souls it signs up. What happens to the body is irrelevant. Yes, the Church does do charity work, caring for the sick etc but in the case of AIDS, it is responsible for many people getting sick in the first place.

If anyone wants to check out a transcript of the BBC programme, you can find it at www.bbc.co.uk/panorama under the title of the programme - Sex and the Holy City.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by severin
The sad moral is, that all the Catholic Church cares about is the number of souls it signs up. What happens to the body is irrelevant.

I respectfully disagree. I submit that the Catholic Church cares far more about power in this life than anything that happens after death.

[Charlie Monoxide]

I can't say enough good things about the Catholic church.

Charlie (really, I can't) Monoxide

[EdipisReks]

i think the Pope's hat should have a health warning printed on it.

[Lord Kenneth]

I think all Catholic priests should wear warning labels.

"Caution: Causes molestation. Keep away from children."

[Cleopatra]

Let's get something straight.

Personally I don't expect priests of any dogma to start informing people about the ways they can protect themselves from AIDS or which is the best contraceptive method.

The Catholic Church ( that is in question here) has answers to that. It doesn't accept sex before, after,outside, marriage and it doesn't accept contraceptive methods. Period. They have the right to believe and advocate those ideas however absurd appear to us.We don't have to believe them.

BUT they do not have the right to have an opinion about a thing that is out of the sphere of their interests and responsibilities.

Condoms are not part of the theological, social, scientific or whatever interest of the Catholic Church and this is because the Church has chosen so.

What makes such announcements repulsive is the fact that they address people in countries that are very dependable on the Catholic Church for their education and their health care.

I find this totally unethical.

[a_unique_person]

Lets face it Cleopatra, you just don't like Catholics.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Lets face it Cleopatra, you just don't like Catholics.

:)

[Zep]

Many Catholics blatantly ignore the biblical/Catholic laws regarding adultery, robbery, false witness and killing anyway. Have done for centuries. So ignoring the these priestly pronouncements on contraception would seem to be even easier for them. My impression is that educated Catholics practice contraception just as readily as non-Catholics. It is only the less educated but Catholic inflitrated places that seem to be targetted heavily by this campaign - in Africa, the Far East, Central and South America...

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Then why didn't he say that?

Maybe you should buy the Church a dictionary, so they can get a little better at saying what you want them to say.Yahzi, you are being deliberately obtuse if you did not come away from that article with a clear understanding of the cardinal's assertion that condoms do not entirely safeguard against the risks they are intended to reduce; i.e. that you are still taking your chances even if you use a condom. The recurrence of such phrases as "not foolproof", "not necessarily impermeable", "not totally dependable", and "Russian roulette" might have tipped you off as to the cardinal's gist. What gives?
Originally posted by Yahzi
I confess I'm not surprised that your still shilling for the Church even over this incredible attempt to kill off a few thousand of their own; but I am a little disappointed. I was hoping to be wrong. Yahzi, your characterizations of me as a Church shill are wrongheaded and irrelevant, but I can't believe you wouldn't realize that they are extremely offensive and insulting to me as well. Maybe I can't dispel that misconception of yours, but since it usually manages to manifest itself in the form of invective, perhaps you could be persuaded simply to keep it to yourself.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yes of course!

Does the Catholic Church participate in the anti-AIDS campaign? I am asking because I think that the Catholic Church doesn't participate in this campaign.

Am I right? I don't know very much about it, but I don't think that's right. By some estimates, the Catholic Church accounts for a quarter of all HIV/AIDS projects worldwide. Here's a representative selection of links referencing diverse Church initiatives in this area, which I located through Google:

http://www.cafod.org.uk/hivaids/aidscafodswork.shtml
http://www.catholicrelief.org/what_we_do_overseas/aids/index.cfm
http://www.aids.org/atn/a-288-02.html
http://www.nrityanjali.org/vo_hiv.htm
http://www.planetwire.org/details/3878
http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/rega/cev/ARL/
http://www.caa.org.na/

I have no idea what kind of effect these sorts of things are actually having, but it would seem inaccurate to say that the Church is not a participant in the global combat against AIDS.

[severin]

The BBC documentary showed quite clearly that priests and their superiors are lying to people in Africa about condoms having holes in (despite WHO and US science organisations publishing research findings to the contrary) and being impregnated with AIDS.

The WHO et al have clearly stated that, PROPERLY USED, condoms can reduce the chances of contracting any STI by at least 90%. And when millions are dying, that's a lot of preventable deaths. Many medicines are not 100% successful, does that mean we shouldn't use them?

The Catholic Church wouldn't need to do nearly as much AIDS related charity work if it supported the use of condoms in the first place.

Many individual Catholics are good people. The Catholic Church is a whited sepulchre.

[Cleopatra]

ceo_esq

Not only is inaccurate to suggest that the Catholic Church doesn't participate in the anti-AIDS campaign but it's totally wrong.

Look what I found in one of the links your provided ( bold face mine)

http://www.caa.org.na/

Note: A follow-up study on "My Future is My Choice" course showed that participants who were not yet sexually active when they took this course tended to postpone the onset of sexual activity by at least a year, and those that were already sexually active tended to practice "safer sex" (including the use of condoms). See: Bonita F. Stanton, Xiaiming Li, Joshua Kahihuata, et al, "Increased Protected Sex and Abstinence Among Namibian Youth Following a HIV Risk-Reduction Intervention: a Randomized, Longitudinal Study." (AIDS 1998, 2:2473-2480). The version of the course that Catholic AIDS Action teaches has been modified to emphasize Christian values, but it does not exclude secular teachings (for example, about condom use).

So, it makes me wonder about the necessity of Cardinal's suggestions...

[severin]

In the Third World, the Church does care for people who are infected but its only preventive measure is to tell people not to have sex. This has been well-documented by the BBC, including interviews with African bishops and a Vatican spokesman. They were all very clear that condoms could not be used in any circumstances. An interview with an AIDS councellor made it clear that he was not allowed to hand out condoms, even though he wanted to.

There are some Catholics who are in favour of condom use but this is not official policy. There were also interviews with people in the documentary who said they were afraid to use condoms because they had been told it was a sin. Obviously, the absitinence teaching is working only for a very few as the infection rate continues to rise.

So it seems to be the case that while a few break-away groups are recommending condom use, this is not the official policy.