Area 51

[peteweaver]

How about some discussions on Area 51, and the conspiracy theories surrounding it ?

[Denver]

Did you know that 51 = 3*17?
And 3/17 is Saint Patrick's day.
And the official color of that day is Green.
And Green is the color used to refer to aliens, as in Little Green Men?

It's all there, people!!

[Garrette]

Have at it. If you put forth some specifics, you're likely to get responses. Otherwise you'll get posts like this one:

Area 51 exists. Its existence used to be secret. Details of its purpose are still secret, but a general picture is fairly widely known.

What else do you want?

[GT/CS]

Did you know that 51 = 3*17?
And 3/17 is Saint Patrick's day.
And the official color of that day is Green.
And Green is the color used to refer to aliens, as in Little Green Men?

It's all there, people!!

That was priceless!!!

[van_dutch]

Historic projects related to what is known as Area 51 include Have Blue (precursor to the F117), the U2, the SR71, UAV's, and many other projects. In other words, the do secret stuff there so the enemy (originally the USSR) does not know what is going on. No mystery there. What do you think is going on?

[I Ratant]

A-12, not SR-71.
The SR first flew from Palmdale.

[van_dutch]

A-12, not SR-71.
The SR first flew from Palmdale.

Eh, related projects. Either way, Area 51 was involved with all the Blackbird variants, if memory serves.

[defaultdotxbe]

they have a big runway there

[Chaos]

Historic projects related to what is known as Area 51 include Have Blue (precursor to the F117), the U2, the SR71, UAV's, and many other projects. In other words, the do secret stuff there so the enemy (originally the USSR) does not know what is going on. No mystery there. What do you think is going on?

It´s like this: developing new aircraft, and evaluating "acquired" foreign aircraft, is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the extraordinary amount of secrecy surrounding the place.

Theoretically, that would also be a very good reason to hide anything else you want to be hidden really well in the same place. So, *if* an alien spacecraft crashed in Roswell in ´47, it would be a reasonably good guess that its remains have ended up in Area 51 by now, even it it wasn´t for the UFO nuts´ hype about the place.

Unfortunately (for the UFO nuts) the problem is that there is neither a theoretical explanation nor empirical evidence for an alien spacecraft crashing anywhere at any time. Until such explanations and/or evidence is forthcoming, it is totally pointless to discuss where these hypothetical alien remains might be kept hidden.

[Comsat Angel]

Back when I frequented the Bad Astronomy forum, I recall a serious poster claiming to have heard from [insert third-hand recount of third-hand recount] who said that a particle beam weapon installation had been constructed at Area 51 and was undergoing testing there. This person also stated that when being tested, everything airborne had to get on the ground pronto, no exceptions, and that it fired balls of energy - I may be misquoting slightly, it's a long time ago.

More pertinently, I believe that years ago you could stray onto Area 51 territory and get away with a stern lecture from the guards if you were apologetic and convincing enough (and if your camera was well-hidden!). Nowadays, you get arrested, QED. This, I think, is why any current filming of Area 51 is always from a great distance

[peteweaver]

In 1989 a man named Bob Lazar came forwards claiming to have worked on reverse engineering alien technology stored there in a part of Groom Lake known as Sector 4...

He claims that an unexpectedly stable element with an atomic number of 115 was used to provide fuel for spacecraft.
This claim is believed to be a lie, as elements with an atomic number of 115 have been made in conventional physics laboratories, and have a half life of seconds rather than years.

Is Bob Lazar a Walter Mitty, or the real McCoy. Personally I think he's a Walter Mitty, but the Area 51 theories make interesting and enjoyable reading, and I used to be very very into all that stuff.

[van_dutch]

My understanding of Mr. Lazar's situation is that he has claimed to have gotten degrees from CalTech and MIT but no record of that can be found. He then claims that the government erased his record because he went public. He also claims to have worked for the Department of Naval Intelligence which hasn't existed since WW2. There is other stuff floating around about him but most of it is unverifiable like the other claims he has made.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

My understanding of Mr. Lazar's situation is that he has claimed to have gotten degrees from CalTech and MIT but no record of that can be found. He then claims that the government erased his record because he went public. He also claims to have worked for the Department of Naval Intelligence which hasn't existed since WW2. There is other stuff floating around about him but most of it is unverifiable like the other claims he has made.

ISTR Bob Lazar has been demonstrated to know no physics.

[defaultdotxbe]

the bob lazar issue is easily debunked

if he worked at area 51 he would have signed a nondisclosure agreement

if he violated that agreement he would be in prison

since he is not in prison he has either A: not worked at area 51, or B: not revealed anything he saw or did there

[GT/CS]

Check it out.
http://www.boblazar.com/

He was arrested a few years ago for selling bomb-making chemicals.

http://149.101.1.32/civil/ocl/cases/Cases/UnitedNuclear/Civil%20Complaint.pdf

[I Ratant]

the bob lazar issue is easily debunked

if he worked at area 51 he would have signed a nondisclosure agreement

if he violated that agreement he would be in prison

since he is not in prison he has either A: not worked at area 51, or B: not revealed anything he saw or did there
.
When getting into a "sensitive" program, that document with the word "death if you screw this up" attracts the eye.
Not like your typical MacJob application.

[MG1962]

I once got told by someone who seemed to know a guy who's best friends girlfriend's hairdresser, that all the sensitve stuff at Area 51 got moved years ago and is now housed under Denver airport.

Given the size of the place you could tuck a Death Star in there, and I swear no one would notice. I do have to say though, some of the stuff happening twith the baggage handling system, just aint natural

[The Doc]

It's definitely an interesting place, and makes for some very good reading and research. Personally, I don't believe Aliens have anything to do with it though.

[Hans]

A high school friend's last Airforce tour of duty was as the "S-4/G-4" with oversight of that facility. Her comment was if there was a secret base, beyond what was suppose to be there - they did without food, toilet paper and just about everything else-unless it was beamed in.

[Hans]

My understanding of Mr. Lazar's situation is that he has claimed to have gotten degrees from CalTech and MIT but no record of that can be found. He then claims that the government erased his record because he went public. He also claims to have worked for the Department of Naval Intelligence which hasn't existed since WW2. There is other stuff floating around about him but most of it is unverifiable like the other claims he has made.

That would mean they also got every single graduation announcement out of circulation too....you remember that piece of paper with the list of all the graduates on it that goes to each family.....

right

[CptColumbo]

A few years ago a person at a sci-fi convention I was at held a panel on UFOs, and brought up Area-51. The basis for his belief that they held alien technology there was that they were so secretive and you couldn't get near it. I asked how many US military bases he had been to, and what percentage of them would tell him what was going on inside and let him enter. I was later kicked out of a panel discussion on Roswell, as a "trouble maker."

[Comsat Angel]

Bob Lazar couldn't name any of the tutors or fellow students from his supposed courses, either. IIRC he was later arrested for "pandering", and went into the chemical mail-order business. Walter Mitty out for $$$, I think.

[Alareth]

Screw Area 51. I'm more concerned about Area's 1 through 50. What kind of crazy stuff goes on there and why are they never mentioned? Hmmm?

[MG1962]

A high school friend's last Airforce tour of duty was as the "S-4/G-4" with oversight of that facility. Her comment was if there was a secret base, beyond what was suppose to be there - they did without food, toilet paper and just about everything else-unless it was beamed in.

So what are you saying - 50 years of studying Roswell wreckage, and the best we came up with was a sewage system???????? :eek:

[peteweaver]

Basically Bob Lazar is the Kevin Ryan of Area 51 then :)

[Chaos]

Screw Area 51. I'm more concerned about Area's 1 through 50. What kind of crazy stuff goes on there and why are they never mentioned? Hmmm?

I think you´re on to something here. Maybe Area 51 is just the official false flag operation designed to hide the activity in the other 50 sites?

But excuse me for a while. I´m off to investigate Majestic 1 through 11. :D

[GreNME]

A few years ago a person at a sci-fi convention I was at held a panel on UFOs, and brought up Area-51. The basis for his belief that they held alien technology there was that they were so secretive and you couldn't get near it. I asked how many US military bases he had been to, and what percentage of them would tell him what was going on inside and let him enter. I was later kicked out of a panel discussion on Roswell, as a "trouble maker."

I actually know a couple of sci-fi writers (mostly friends of a friend) and last year attended a small convention (Bubonicon) to hang out with them (I'm not a huge sci-fi reader, I stick to non-fiction mostly). I won't drop specific names because I don't know if they're open about their day jobs to the public, but at least one of them actually is a rocket scientist and does work at one of those secretive, high-clearance locations in the SouthWest US. This person has been to places like Groom Lake and has at least seen some of it. While this person was obligated to stick to nondisclosure agreements (to keep their current job) I was curious and asked what those top-secret places were working on and if there was any merit to the conspiracy theories. That person's reply: "I wish! That would be so cool! Unfortunately, my job is a lot less interesting than that but I still get to work on and look at cool man-made technology. From Earth."

On another website I recall a discussion about the F-22 and someone posted a brief, nondescript accounting of their time working on the F-22 program, stating that all the teams working on it weren't told the complete aircraft they were working on or its full purposes. Since these teams are used to those types of government contracts it apparently didn't bug anyone but it also didn't fool some people into figuring out they were working on a stealth fighter. Once the project work was completed many of the teams working on it were brought into a hangar and shown a 'finished' product under the requirement that no one could divulge or disclose any information on it under stiff penalties and possible incarceration. Oh, and the time frame for this was something like 15-20 years ago (long before the F-22 was announced). That person didn't mention Groom Lake, but considering it's pretty common knowledge that test flying goes on at Groom Lake it's pretty safe to say that the F-22 probably did some test flying around there.

[I Ratant]

The ATF competitor for the F-22 program was kept under wraps, but it was all conducted at Palmdale and Edwards.
The first flight was from Palmdale, with lots of people watching.
The plane went to Edwards for the competition with the Northrop YF-23.
If it went to Groom for anything, it would most likely be airborne systems testing, originating from EAFB and RTBing there.
There's some truth to the compartmentalization of the program, but it wasn't THAT strict.
After all, the program itself was widely known.
"Advanced Tactical Fighter". Several different notional versions were shown in the press until the first one actually flew.

[GT/CS]

Snip...Once the project work was completed many of the teams working on it were brought into a hangar and shown a 'finished' product under the requirement that no one could divulge or disclose any information on it under stiff penalties and possible incarceration. ...Snip

I read that as "incineration" and thought, "Wow, that threat would work well!"

[GreNME]

I read that as "incineration" and thought, "Wow, that threat would work well!"

It would shut me the heck up!

And Ratant: thanks for the info. I'm sure its systems testing was done someplace like Groom Lake (for a remote location, though NM and AZ have locations as well), but I didn't know where it was actually developed.

[I Ratant]

It would shut me the heck up!

And Ratant: thanks for the info. I'm sure its systems testing was done someplace like Groom Lake (for a remote location, though NM and AZ have locations as well), but I didn't know where it was actually developed.
.
I was working on a different program in the same building, and I could draw up the airplane, while the guys working on it couldn't!
I'd give them 3-views so they could do their work a bit better.
There's a Boeing 767 that was used to develop many of the systems on the Raptor, as the plane is a single-seater, the pilot workload would prevent much systems development.
The stuff "they" don't want you see or know about, you DON"T see or know about! :)

[zaphod2016]

Disclaimer: I love the entire "aliens" mythology, and although I remain very very skeptical, I have seen many strange things down here in the skies near NASA. I also live a few miles from Patrick AFB, and they run training in C-130's directly over my house from time to time.

Regarding "Area 51": I have followed this story since 1992, when I discovered it via an episode of the old show "Sightings" on FOX as a 12-year-old boy.

If I remember correctly, Bob Lazar, who has been confirmed as a fraud, contacted a local journalist with the story. The story went national, and the entire Area 51 story became a mecca of conspiracy theory ever since.

Most of the non-woo theories discuss technology used to monitor Soviet technologies, specifically their aerospace and nuclear capacity. I'm sure we've all seen the famous newspaper cover with the headline "Flying Saucer Crashes in New Mexico", which was later recanted and explained to be the debris of a weather balloon.

Many have speculated that rather than a weather balloon, "they" were testing spy balloons, and that once the remains of one of these balloons had been found, they were forced to invent a "cover up" story so that their covert operation against the USSR could continue.

Other speculate that the Roswell crash was an experimental high-altitude spy plane. Perhaps a beta version of something like the U-2. Others claim the U-2 was old hat by the 1940's (I doubt this very very much) and that the crash was a prototype of the B2 (which I must admit, looks a lot like how I would image an alien spaceship to look).

The problem with both of these speculations is the timeline. The Roswell crash took place on July 7, 1947. The U-2 was a project under Eisenhower, and wasn't revealed to the public until the soviets captured one in 1960. McDouglas Arthur and Northrop Grumman were both experimenting with the "fixed wing" design in the early 60's and 70's, but the B2 (aka Stealth Bomber) wasn't ready until the early 80's, and only revealed to the public in 1988.

Some claim that "they" have technology 20-30 years ahead of what they released, and that its quite possible "they" were testing a prototype B2 in 1947; 40 years before this plane would be revealed to the public. My question to these people is: what did the Government do with these "beta" B2's for 40 years? And assuming that they didn't do anything with them, in order to keep them secret, what was the point of having them? The "they are always 20 years ahead" mantra fails the "sniff test" IMO.

However, I have a conspiracy theory of my own regarding Area 51. I think the government invented a story about crashing UFOs, made up a few puppets, and then slowly "leaked" this information to a few people with questionable credibility.

Why would "they" do this? To cover-up spy balloons and experimental jets from the USSR? Possibly. But I have an even more rational excuse: to cover-up toxic waste.

Note: I really wish I could post a link here, but a little Googling will quickly confirm this.

In the early 1990's, a group of employees who had operated out of Area 51 began getting very sick. After a few died, the survivors banded together, and began asking what had been at Area 51 that was making them all sick. Naturally, the government claimed "it was a secret in the interests of national security" which fueled the alien story into overdrive. Remember: it is my theory that the government itself was the original creator of said legend. But why?

When all was said and done, after several changes in venue, countless appeals, and several more deaths, the case proceeded to trial where it was discovered that Area 51 had been used to store toxic nuclear wastes. This toxic waste had been buried in the desert, and now, 50 years later, had cause some serious health effects to the people. You can imagine how this ends: a big fat settlement for the victims, and a nice splat of egg on the government's face.

So my theory has always been that the real secret of Area 51 was toxic waste. "They" knew they had a health risk, and "they" knew the public would scream and yell if this became public information. How do you keep people from discovering the truth? Distract them with something more interesting.

Such is my theory. Sources: none. Credibility: none. Basis: too much thinking. Take it with a grain of salt.

However, you gotta admit- if you didn't know what a B@ was, and it flew over your house, you would assume it to be a UFO.

Also, I see weird stuff in the sky all the time. Are they NASA/AF experiments? Alien visitors? Sleep deprivation? If Occam's razor is any guide, probably the former, or the latter.

And it goes without saying that if aliens wanted to be known to us, they would be. They would land on the white house lawn during a scheduled press conference. So if the aliens *do* exist, and the government *does* know about it, you have a bona-fide intergalatic conspiracy here. Congratulations. David Icke would be proud.

[zaphod2016]

Also: totally separate issue- I warmly welcome any skeptics of the Apollo mission to come down to the Space Coast for a visit. If you have any lingering doubt after a week here, you are clearly insane. If these people, including my elderly neighbor, are "plants", I am confident the government wasted enough resources here in the 1960's that they could have gone to the moon as a cost-savings measure.

[petra10]

Area 51 has always been one of my favourite CT's (now I am more interested in areas 1-50 :)).

Its just so intriguing, the goverment says one thing then changes their minds and says something different. People see strange things, erry lights in the night and its connection with Roswell. In fact everything a good CT needs.

Although the toxic waste story is interesting as I watched a tv programme years ago about the death of workers from area 51. The programme was trying to highlight the alien involvment but now I think the toxic waste was a better answer to the "strange deaths".

[GreNME]

.
I was working on a different program in the same building, and I could draw up the airplane, while the guys working on it couldn't!

That's awesome. Early 1990's, right?

The stuff "they" don't want you see or know about, you DON"T see or know about! :)

Unless you're an early-twenty-something working off Google searches! ;)


zaphod2016: it's not really a secret that many places in Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico were used for nuclear testing well into the 1960's (or later, I can't remember). There may be toxic waste there, but my best guess would be it's from the time when there was active nuclear testing going on. I know there were a few lawsuits against the government from people in Nevada and southern Utah regarding toxic dust from nuclear testing back in the 1960's. If there was any cleanup it would have had to be stored, though I admit I don't have a whole lot of information on it from memory.

The reason I mentioned the raptor, by the way, is because I've seen en exhibition of what it an do. That pretty much removed a lot of doubts I had about whether people in recent years (last decade or so) were seeing something real as far as UFOs-- the F-22 is capable of moving a lot like what people describe as alien craft. On top of that I also know the DoD and other military research agencies are slightly ahead of the production curve when it comes to the technologies they're testing, though the only information I've ever gotten from people who have done work in such facilities has been about weapons, not aircraft. Between the mingling of those two things I can see how the impression that the military is working on hot, new aircraft that we won't see for another 15-20 years can propagate.