Purpose of Religion?

[Huzington]

Is religion the "opium of the people", the purpose of which is "to satisfy other needs or conditions"; is religion "so fully determined by economics that it is pointless to consider any of its doctrines or beliefs on their own merits"? (Quoting Karl Marx, of course.)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Huzington
Is religion the "opium of the people", the purpose of which is "to satisfy other needs or conditions";If by "other needs or conditions" you mean the wants and desires of the religion's adherents, I'd have to say yes even if no one in the religion realizes it.
is religion "so fully determined by economics that it is pointless to consider any of its doctrines or beliefs on their own merits"? (Quoting Karl Marx, of course.) This one I'd have to disagree with. I'm optimistic (perhaps nieve) enough to think it isn't fully determined by economics. Of course, I'm not referring to anything that might appear on CBN. That is fully determined by economoics and politics.

[Franko]

Is religion the "opium of the people", the purpose of which is "to satisfy other needs or conditions"; is religion "so fully determined by economics that it is pointless to consider any of its doctrines or beliefs on their own merits"?

Define "Religion".

Without your definition of that term your question is meaningless.

[triadboy]

I think religion is a brain lollypop for a being who knows non-existence is steadily approaching.

[Franko]

you mean where:

brain lollypop = the religion of Materialism???

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Franko
you mean where:

brain lollypop = the religion of Materialism???

Whereby the brain imagines concerned spirits, guardian angels, watchful fathers in Heaven. It's something for the brain to suck on until oblivion. It says, "There is something on the other side of death - do not be afraid. You will come out on the other side unscathed."

[Franko]

Whereby the brain imagines concerned spirits, guardian angels, watchful fathers in Heaven.

A rather narrow minded view of Religion, but not unexpected coming from a fanatically religious Atheists who has already determined ultimate Truth.

It's something for the brain to suck on until oblivion. It says, "There is something on the other side of death - do not be afraid. You will come out on the other side unscathed."

And what exactly is this conclusive evidence that proves beyond any doubt the coin will definitely land TAILs up? Is your pessimism all the proof that you will cease to exist? Sounds more like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I always find it humorous when some would-be-wonder-boy admonishes me that tossed coins always land TAILs up because there is no evidence that a tossed coin will land HEADs up. The fact is your claim is about as logical as claiming that when your QUAKE (computer game) character is “killed”, YOU the player controlling that character also cease to exist.

[jimmygun]

Religion is a two way street...those that would rule and those that would follow. People are so very eager to follow that those that rule become immensely powerful and rich.

The thing about religion that gives it such strength is its hierarchy. Everyone from the top down claims sway over those immediately around them. They claim to speak for god and no one is to argue with god! How else can a hundred pound geek get away with telling a 200 pounder to stop using such language?

The purpose of religion? To control and be controlled.

[jimmygun]

By the way...Franco...when do I get to meat, I mean meet that goddess of yours? I waited for seven months at the restaurant for her to show but, well you know.:mad:

[Franko]

[The Religion of Materialism] is a two way street...those that would rule and those that would follow. People are so very eager to follow that those that rule become immensely powerful and rich.

The thing about [the religion of materialism] that gives it such strength is its hierarchy. Everyone from the top down claims sway over those immediately around them. They claim to speak for [The Laws of Physics] and no one is to argue with [The Laws of Physics]! How else can a hundred pound geek get away with telling a 200 pounder to stop using such language?

The purpose of [the religion of materialism]? To control and be controlled.

By the way...Franco...when do I get to meat, I mean meet that goddess of yours? I waited for seven months at the restaurant for her to show but, well you know.

Yeah, She was the entity generating the restaurant. I believe she tried to communicate with you, but obviously you are not yet capable of comprehending her “words”.

[jimmygun]

Franco...contrary to Monty Python gainsaying is not really an argument.

Perhaps you can teach me the way to comprehend her words or do I actually have to be you to hear the voices?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Franko
A rather narrow minded view of Religion,

Is there a religion (other than Buddhism) that doesn't pander to invisible creatures?

Since humans are the only creatures that actually 'expect' to die, religion is needed to promote the future after death. It is a pacifier for the frightened mind.

What would be the impulse to believe anything else?

You sound frightened.

[Dancing David]

Religion is like toilet paer, best used and then discarded. But to need it and not have it....

So Franko, are you on which side? Are you carrying a raft or just yanking materialist chains?

[Prospero]

Ah, religion. Religion is really quite an amazing creation of mankind. There is no more effective means of manipulation. There is no easier means of creating social strata. There is no easier way to gain unquestioned authority.

The big question is, though, why? What about religion so holds people in its sway? I think religion is a brain lollypop
A brain lollypop. Something to divert attention from the unpleasant experience of, say, going to the cosmic dentist which is known as life?

Consider religion's appeal: "Come to us! We want you! We accept you! We love you when you don't even love yourself! Be happy with us! Let us wash away your sin, your pain, your guilt! Be reborn with us! Be a new person without whatever past you're running from! Come and be free of it all with us!"

And so the masses go, happy to be receiving their brain lollypop while the real unpleasantness of the world is shielded out via mass denial. Life is perfect in the religion.

But what happens if you've finished your brain lolly and find that you have no desire to suck on a stick that doesn't offer the same sweet reward it did when you first started? Now you find yourself pierced through by religion, barbed in ways that make extraction impossible without fear of permanent damage.

"If you don't accept this religion, your soul will be lost forever to a lake of fire and brimstone! You will spend eternity suffering when you could have spent eternity in utter bliss! Is a few years on earth worth an eternity of torment? We've given you so much! How can you desert us now! We saved you! We built you up when you were destroyed and this is how you repay us? How can you do this to us? We love you! Why leave our love? Do you want to go back to the way you were before?"

And so the poor victim finds himself inextricably harpooned both with their reasoning, which to his flayed mind makes perfect sense, and his own fear of the possibility of their predictions being true. After all, better safe than sorry, no?

And so another mind is lost to the seemingly inexorable morass of religion. The hook is absolutely ingenius, perfectly disguised, perfectly inviting, an answer without an apparent cost. The hook, however, is barbed in more ways than can be easily examined by those skewered. And so it continues.

Most are unaware of the barbs lodged in their minds, the seeds of irrationality that have taken root and grown into full-grown vines, continually creeping into every facet of rational thought and subverting it to create even cleverer hooks with even better disguised barbs that slide in all the more painlessly so as to leave the victim completely unaware.

That is religion, Marx's opiate of the masses. And just like morphine and heroine, the temporary pleasure leads to painful addiction and a truly hellish detoxification.

[Yahweh]

Purpose of Religion?
Religion has very little purpose if any.

It was first created by man to explain things he could not understand ("Where does thunder come from", "What happens when I die", etc.).]

Religion continued a bit further, it provides a sense of "purpose" to life if that purpose isnt immediately obvious.

From there, Religion evolved (it sure did) to include its own set of morals.

Today, we dont accept an explanation like "God makes thunder" to describe phenomena. It would be insane to say life has no purpose without serving a god. Morals have tended to drift away from religion. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, people refuse to let go of religion because they have strong inner convictions that what they believe is true.

There is no purpose for religion... but it still wont go away.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Franko

I always find it humorous when some would-be-wonder-boy admonishes me that tossed coins always land TAILs up because there is no evidence that a tossed coin will land HEADs up. The fact is your claim is about as logical as claiming that when your QUAKE (computer game) character is “killed”, YOU the player controlling that character also cease to exist.

Franko,

Not to pee on your parade or anything but the claim is that when you "QUAKE" character is "killed" he ceases to exist.

As far as the QUAKE (does it have to be capitals or does it just sound more cool that way?) when it says "Game Over" , it's really over.

Graham

[Graham]

Originally posted by Franko

I always find it humorous when some would-be-wonder-boy admonishes me that tossed coins always land TAILs up because there is no evidence that a tossed coin will land HEADs up. The fact is your claim is about as logical as claiming that when your QUAKE (computer game) character is “killed”, YOU the player controlling that character also cease to exist.

Franko,

Not to pee on your parade or anything but the claim is that when you "QUAKE" character is "killed" he ceases to exist.

As far as the QUAKE (does it have to be capitals or does it just sound more cool that way?) when it says "Game Over" , it's really over.

Graham

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Franko
And what exactly is this conclusive evidence that proves beyond any doubt the coin will definitely land TAILs up?

Your brain will begin dissolving upon death. Your collected memories are within that brain. There is no evidence your "soul" will somehow snatch those memories and depart your body to go on living in another dimension. Is this what you suggest? There is no reason to believe the miraculous, when the logical works so well.


I always find it humorous when some would-be-wonder-boy admonishes me that tossed coins always land TAILs up because there is no evidence that a tossed coin will land HEADs up. The fact is your claim is about as logical as claiming that when your QUAKE (computer game) character is “killed”, YOU the player controlling that character also cease to exist.

This example is so bad, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Tossed coins land on each side 49.99999% percent of the time. Once every 2 million tries I can get it to land on its edge. Religion claims you toss the coin and it never comes down.


I'd love to hear your claim restated with a better example.

[Franko]

Is there a religion (other than Buddhism) that doesn't pander to invisible creatures?

Hmmm … I consider myself religious. I am not a Buddhist, and I don’t believe in any “invisible creatures”.

Are you claiming that Buddhism is the “one true faith”?

Since humans are the only creatures that actually 'expect' to die …

How do you know that?

… religion is needed to promote the future after death. It is a pacifier for the frightened mind.

Of course not everyone believes that. Some individuals would say that believing you “cease to exist” is analogous to claiming that there are no consequences for actions.

Perhaps the religion of Atheism (or Buddhism) is more in line with minds frightened of responsibility for action?

What would be the impulse to believe anything else?

Well maybe they are frightened that Solipsism is True (fear of being alone)? Maybe some people don’t want to exist perpetually? I’d guess it probably varies with the individual.

You sound frightened.

What do I have to be frightened of? If I “cease to exist” how would I be aware of it?

It seems to me that there are a lot of Atheists here deathly afraid that one day they are going to be held accountable for their actions. I guess “ceasing to exist” is the preferable alternative?

-------------------------------

So Franko, are you on which side? Are you carrying a raft or just yanking materialist chains?

Does it really matter to you, Discordian?

[Franko]

Your brain will begin dissolving upon death. Your collected memories are within that brain.

Well sure, but only if you have illogically assumed that there is something which exist independent of empirical verification.

There is no evidence your "soul" will somehow snatch those memories and depart your body to go on living in another dimension.

Why would my “Soul” need to snatch something that it already contains? As for “living in another dimension”, my Soul only manifest in this “world”, it never really existed here to begin with.

Is this what you suggest?

I have no idea whether you comprehend what I have said or not? I see no evidence that you have comprehended it.

There is no reason to believe the miraculous, when the logical works so well.

A Philosophy that I live and breathe by.

I'd love to hear your claim restated with a better example.

If you have never seen a coin tossed than there is no reason to assume that because you possess no evidence that the coin will land HEADs up that it will land TAILs up. Either you can comprehend this or you cannot. If you genuinely believe that a person calling the toss differently than how you call it is being less scientific and more religious than you are I’d say you have some rather subjective definitions of the terms “science” and “religion”.

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Jebus tapdancing christ! Franko, like all the others, is ignoring questions and valid points and pretending you are at fault. Why waste your time with him?

[hgc]

Another thread Franko'd. A perfectly useful idiot, huzington, wants to talk about religion as it relates to his communist fantasy, and along comes Franko to joust with materialists. Really Franko, you are a class A jerk.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Franko

Why would my “Soul” need to snatch something that it already contains? As for “living in another dimension”, my Soul only manifest in this “world”, it never really existed here to begin with.


Evidence seems to point very strongly to the brain containing memories, not some soul. If damage occurs to the brain, memories are lost. If someone has severe mental damage, they can become a completely different person. When the brain becomes damaged, is the soul damaged in the same way by the spirit of whatever object damaged the brain (ie, a big rock).

So, when you get in a car accident, and your conciousness is effected, just realize then, its not your soul that is experiencing life, its you, and when "you" are physically injured, its "you" that is effected.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Franko
Hmmm … I consider myself religious. I am not a Buddhist, and I don’t believe in any “invisible creatures”.

I would be interested in knowing your religion that doesn't involve invisible creatures.

Are you claiming that Buddhism is the “one true faith”?

I think Buddhism is more a 'way of life' than a religion. It doesn't require belief in invisible creatures.

It seems to me that there are a lot of Atheists here deathly afraid that one day they are going to be held accountable for their actions.

Did you just reveal an invisible creature that you don't believe in?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Franko
Why would my “Soul” need to snatch something that it already contains? As for “living in another dimension”, my Soul only manifest in this “world”, it never really existed here to begin with.

You are, of course, speaking about a 'soul' - your personal ghost - your invisible creature

If you have never seen a coin tossed than there is no reason to assume that because you possess no evidence that the coin will land HEADs up that it will land TAILs up.

Do you actually talk like this?! This is romper room philosophy stated very badly. Instead of using 3 negatives - use one and restate it.

If you genuinely believe that a person calling the toss differently than how you call it is being less scientific and more religious than you are I’d say you have some rather subjective definitions of the terms “science” and “religion”.

I have no idea where you came up with this! You would have been a hoot back in the Salem witches days!

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Franko

Does it really matter to you, Discordian?
Well , alot of us have stated thier beliefs and such. So do you view religion as a means to an end or an end in and of itself?

Are you yanking chains? Do you belive that solipism is true or just an interesting alternative.
And please my first name is David , so that should be discordian with a little 'd'.

Unless you just like to capatalize eveything.

So do belive in the general laws of relativity Franko? Or do you believe in straight vector addition for bodies moving near the spped of light?

[whitefork]

the whole quote Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.From Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right.
Sounds quite different in context. I don't quite know where Marx wants to go with this. However, independent testimony indicates that actual opiates are more captivating than most religions.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by triadboy


Is there a religion (other than Buddhism) that doesn't pander to invisible creatures?


I know what you're saying, but "pander" is perhaps not quite the right word. I don't have much to say about Buddhism, but of the religions I'm acquainted with, I'd say the right word is "appease".

He is infinitely angry and regards you as a loathesome insect, etc. Gotta do something about that.


Since humans are the only creatures that actually 'expect' to die, religion is needed to promote the future after death. It is a pacifier for the frightened mind.


I think it's important to distinguish between religion (systematized fear of ghosts) and priestcraft ("opium of the people"). The latter feeds on the former, but I think religion comes naturally. As you say to the frightened mind.


What would be the impulse to believe anything else?

You sound frightened.

Well you weren't adressing me, but sure I'm sometimes frightened too. No Big Guy who loves us but treats us like s**t to appease, though.

In politics I say that appeasement never works, so why should it work in the spiritual realm (if such there be)?

[hal bidlack]

Originally posted by hgc
Another thread Franko'd. A perfectly useful idiot, huzington, wants to talk about religion as it relates to his communist fantasy, and along comes Franko to joust with materialists. Really Franko, you are a class A jerk.

This post has been reported. I find that while it is "in your face," it does not violate any of the rules. A person posting here must expect a response to unusual ideas. I encourage the reporter to chill out a tad.

Hal