Prayer Doesn't Help [Archive]

evildave

16th October 2003, 11:16 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3193902.stm

'No health benefit' from prayer

The world's largest study into the effects of prayer on patients undergoing heart surgery has found it appears to make no difference.

The MANTRA study, run from Duke University Medical Center in North Carolina, involved 750 patients.

Before their operations, they were randomly split into two groups, and half were prayed for by Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims.

However, checks revealed they had fared no better than those not prayed for.

There you go: pray it's wrong, if you like. It won't matter.

Of course, maybe the people who prayed weren't 'sincere' enough, or didn't believe enough, or didn't have enough faith. You can always make another excuse.

Yahweh

16th October 2003, 11:37 PM

Pray really hard, like totally seriously hard, pray until it HURTS. Wish upon a star, throw salt over your shoulder, knock on wood, and praZe da Lord... No one is feeling better, the hurricane is still on its way, grab a shovel and dig a grave if you ever expect prayer therapy to triumph over modern medicine.

Marquis de Carabas

16th October 2003, 11:46 PM

If someone is in pain or ill, and you just keep praying long enough, eventually the pain or illness will go away. And the really neat thing is, often the worse it was when you began praying, the quicker it goes away.

calladus

17th October 2003, 12:54 AM

Before their operations, they were randomly split into two groups, and half were prayed for by Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims.

I dunno if this will be a chink in anyone's religous beliefs - the believers I know might say something about the Christian prayers being canceled out by the prayers from the non-Christians.

Yahweh

17th October 2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by calladus
I dunno if this will be a chink in anyone's religous beliefs - the believers I know might say something about the Christian prayers being canceled out by the prayers from the non-Christians.
Well, if you want use specifics like that, I'm willing to bet you could find a Christian who would say "The heathen prayers dont count, they werent praying to God, therefore the only prayers that can cancel out Christian prayers are when two Christians pray for the opposite thing to happen" or something like that.

No wait, he wouldnt want to say that, otherwise he would be conceding to the "prayer has no effect" study results.

shuize

17th October 2003, 01:24 AM

This so easy to refute. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Just as those who leave the church didn't really ever believe, the obvious flaw in this study is that those whose prayers were not effective didn't really ever pray.

Finella

17th October 2003, 10:39 AM

"However, that trial involved only 150 patients, and the more extensive research, completed this year, found no evidence of any benefits."

Were they only looking at the physical well-being of the patients as their dependent variables? Hunh. ::shrug::

I seem to recall a CS Lewis essay on why these exact kinds of experiments were theologically flawed. Sorry, I can't remember where it is... if I find it I'll post it. It does seem silly to me, really, that a bunch of people you don't know praying for you (and you don't know that they are) would really make any difference, physically or emotionally. Call it placebo effect or something else, but that could be why this experiment didn't work.

---,---'--{@

Darwin

18th October 2003, 12:40 PM

What do you mean by "theologically flawed"?
I do not think that theology is in question here.

I do think there´s more negative data beyond this anyway.

Lord Kenneth

18th October 2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Darwin
What do you mean by "theologically flawed"?
I do not think that theology is in question here.

I do think there´s more negative data beyond this anyway.

He means that having people pray for you that don't even know you doesn't have any theological backing to work--i.e., it has no basis in what some Christians may believe.

sorgoth

18th October 2003, 12:58 PM

I'd like to be the first to say: "No *****."

CFLarsen

18th October 2003, 12:59 PM

Over one billion Catholics, praying for the Pope to get better.

Result? Look at the pictures....

TruthSeeker

18th October 2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Over one billion Catholics, praying for the Pope to get better.

Result? Look at the pictures....

I don't get this at all. The Pope has served for a very long time, he has suffered from physical illnesses for a long time...now that death seems near...a death which means reward and hanging out with Jesus...why are Catholics praying that he get better?

Shouldn't all Christians be praying for each other's deaths so they can be with Jesus?

sorgoth

18th October 2003, 02:59 PM

If I REALLY believed in heaven, I would devote my life to the church. How can eternal happiness not be enough of a carrot, and eternal punishment not enough of a stick? I would probably try to find a burning house or something, and die trying to get someone out. Then I'd be heaven. Happy end!

Iamme

18th October 2003, 04:33 PM

My deeply religious godmother aunt, had me pray with her, while we stood on the dock...that I would find my glasses that fell of me in the lake (in the vicinity of the dock). Just finished praying, opened our eyes, and there was the glasses. True story.

Another time, just a few years ago, I prayed for the first time, that a lump on my knee would disappear. I woke up the next morning and it was gone!!! For real. I had that lump for about 7 years before this, and it was always of the egg size that it was. I was freaked. I wore a pair of shorts for the first time the next day. I slapped myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming. The next night, I went to bed and that next morning I woke up and the lump was there again. What the...???? I've never known what to make of this.

But I might be a child of God. I had an angelic guy with blue eyes come drive up next to me while I was working next to the road, on an island I lived on, yet I never had seen him before...and we got into a religious conversation right away. I can't remember why or how. Then, I started to sort of mock religion and then he proceeded to tell me how gravity could work. He got into things atomic and gyroscopic related. I s**t you not. I should be hypnotized so I can remember what he told me about gravity.

A few years ago I hit four deer at once at 45 miles per hour, and killed two outright. The cop I told this to laughed when I told them I bowled over four deer and I never put as much as a scratch in my car, including the plastic on the front of the car. A month later i killed another deer the same way. Only THAT time, I took a chip out of the plastic. Other cars I have seen that hit deer, get caved-in in the front, and they have to pull over because their radiators are leaking.

I have always felt somewhat guilty to mock the possibility of there being a God, because there have been things that have happened in my life (like where I have come very close to drowning and a list of other things), that just keep me wondering. We don't know everything. That's for sure. The Bible can sound made up. It can have contradictions. You can theorize why the Bible was written. But you have to remember that nowhere does it say that the Bible was written in God's hand. it is inspired by God. If you have any religious leanings, you need to remember that. It is written by men...inspired of God. And since we don't have a clue as to what God is (for all we know it could be some mental force at work, of which we are all apart of, collectively)...and many discount God, from the premise of him being this big man up in the heavens somewhere. That is man's own concept.

Mercutio

18th October 2003, 04:40 PM

Iamme

18th October 2003, 06:50 PM

Mercutio---:D

Here is the story: I had been swimming with... (get ready)...my glasses on. I was about 14 at the time. They came off in maybe 4-7 feet of water near a dock. I looked and looked. I got up on the dock and looked down. I couldn't find them. I went up to my aunts house and told her. She came down to the dock. She knew I HAD to have those glasses. I was 'up north' visiting, almost 300 miles from home, and I was quite blind without my glasses. So, we prayed, together. I open my eyes...and there they were. I found them right away. Sounds trivial...silly...luck-like.......who knows?

evildave

18th October 2003, 08:28 PM

Who knows, indeed.

I suppose you've always had 100% reliable results from prayer?

Learning from this shining example, you never bother to look around a room when you misplace something. You just pray and they materialize under your nose every single time?

Or is this the one, brilliant example of it working that you refer back to whenever anyone doubts, because overall, the many, many other prayers accomplished nothing measurable?

I've got a magic pebble for you that keeps tigers away....

As far as deer go, I've always been fortunate enough to slow down for no particular reason and stop in time and/or miss them by a comfortable margin. Who's more "blessed"?

neutrino_cannon

18th October 2003, 10:15 PM

Of course prayer from other people has no effect upon the ill. We need more studies like this, ammunition is good, and some of the posters here are like belt fed mg-34's, and therefore always in need of ammo.

I doubt that extrememy freverent prayer has no physical effect one the person praying, however.

evildave

18th October 2003, 11:10 PM

Granted. Probably helps the person who's praying plenty. Nothing to do, nothing will help, may as well at least talk to yourself and pretend that's helping.

Suggestologist

18th October 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by evildave
Granted. Probably helps the person who's praying plenty. Nothing to do, nothing will help, may as well at least talk to yourself and pretend that's helping.

You're ignoring the fact that mental state impacts how well the body recovers. If you're agitated, your body has less resources to heal or combat infection, or whatever (.... induced comas ....).

evildave

18th October 2003, 11:46 PM

So, how does this psychosomatic trick help if the target of these attentions is not aware of them?

Oh wait! God's playing 'telephone', and relaying the message with his (er His) magicall fairies (er Angels)?

Suggestologist

18th October 2003, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by evildave
So, how does this psychosomatic trick help if the target of these attentions is not aware of them?

Oh wait! God's playing 'telephone', and relaying the message with his (er His) magicall fairies (er Angels)?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by evildave
Granted. Probably helps the person who's praying plenty. Nothing to do, nothing will help, may as well at least talk to yourself and pretend that's helping.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't help if the person isn't aware. The study in question concerns 3rd party prayer. My reply was to your sarcastic comment above -- concerning 1st person prayer.

evildave

19th October 2003, 12:20 AM

And isn't that what psychosomatic treatments are all about? Fooling the subject into believing they're going to get better, hoping the boost in their morale will help?

All I was granting was it helps the people who aren't sick, but worried about the sick people. They can feel better about "helping" without having to cause an effect.

Peter Jenkins

19th October 2003, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Iamme
My deeply religious godmother aunt, had me pray with her, while we stood on the dock...that I would find my glasses that fell of me in the lake (in the vicinity of the dock). Just finished praying, opened our eyes, and there was the glasses. True story.
I love these stories.People at the church i used to attend often brought out little nuggets like this. You know, there are a lot of 'good theists' who have lost money, property, and mush more through no fault of their own. Maybe god's an optician

Another time, just a few years ago, I prayed for the first time, that a lump on my knee would disappear. I woke up the next morning and it was gone!!! For real. I had that lump for about 7 years before this, and it was always of the egg size that it was. I was freaked. I wore a pair of shorts for the first time the next day. I slapped myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming. The next night, I went to bed and that next morning I woke up and the lump was there again. What the...???? I've never known what to make of this.
It's obvious. God cares about your cosmetic appearance.........just yours, of course, otherwise there wouldn't be any deformed/handicapped theists

But I might be a child of God. I had an angelic guy with blue eyes come drive up next to me while I was working next to the road, on an island I lived on, yet I never had seen him before...and we got into a religious conversation right away. I can't remember why or how. Then, I started to sort of mock religion and then he proceeded to tell me how gravity could work. He got into things atomic and gyroscopic related. I s**t you not. I should be hypnotized so I can remember what he told me about gravity.
well, we've all had those experiences haven't we.......Only yesterday, a blue eyed blonde guy dressed all in white appeared in front of me and gave me last nights lottery numbers. If only I hadn't been so preoccupied deciding what brand of baked beans to buy, I'd be a millionaire right now. Oh well, que sera.

A few years ago I hit four deer at once at 45 miles per hour, and killed two outright. The cop I told this to laughed when I told them I bowled over four deer and I never put as much as a scratch in my car, including the plastic on the front of the car. A month later i killed another deer the same way. Only THAT time, I took a chip out of the plastic. Other cars I have seen that hit deer, get caved-in in the front, and they have to pull over because their radiators are leaking.
God lets the deer die, but he makes sure that your tin can isn't too badly dented. Praise The LORD!

I have always felt somewhat guilty to mock the possibility of there being a God,
Funny, I do it all the time, and never feel guilty at all.

Tricky

19th October 2003, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by Iamme
Mercutio---:D

Here is the story: I had been swimming with... (get ready)...my glasses on. I was about 14 at the time. They came off in maybe 4-7 feet of water near a dock. I looked and looked. I got up on the dock and looked down. I couldn't find them. I went up to my aunts house and told her. She came down to the dock. She knew I HAD to have those glasses. I was 'up north' visiting, almost 300 miles from home, and I was quite blind without my glasses. So, we prayed, together. I open my eyes...and there they were. I found them right away. Sounds trivial...silly...luck-like.......who knows?
Hmmm... I wonder what would have happened if you kept your eyes open. Would you have seen the glasses materialize in front of you? This God fellow is a pretty bad magician if His magic only works when you close your eyes.

Suggestologist

19th October 2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by evildave
And isn't that what psychosomatic treatments are all about? Fooling the subject into believing they're going to get better, hoping the boost in their morale will help?

All I was granting was it helps the people who aren't sick, but worried about the sick people. They can feel better about "helping" without having to cause an effect.

Fine. But the study concerns 3rd party prayer. It doesn't contradict the fact that the emotional state of a person impacts on their health, recovery, and survival from surgery and illness.

evildave

19th October 2003, 11:10 AM

Yes, but the study would not be double-blind with the person knowing others were praying.

After all, a statistically predictable portion of those people should've known ahead of time that they were being prayed for. Virtually all of them, probably. You can't have anything "bad" happen without half a dozen people clambering out of the woodwork to tell you they'll pray for you.

So, you really can't imply that these people were totally unaware that people were praying for them. There are priests/reverends/etc. who walk around room to room visiting patients just to let them know they're loved & prayed for & such.

So the only variable here is not knowing that ADDITIONAL prayer is occurring. And why should that matter?

Or perhaps it's a simple matter of it not mattering whether one person or a dozen prays for something - God only cares about the relevant facts. It ain't no democracy. The "relevant facts" just seem to be exactly the medical ones.

Perhaps if you really want to see the power of psychosomatic treatment, you should have a control group who you only scar with a knife while they're asleep and then tell them they had the surgery, tell them they're fine when they come in for checkups, and just let them go about their lives without the heart surgery.

Then you can have ALL of this group openly prayed for, and see what a difference it makes over proper medical treatment.

Of course, that would be utterly immoral, unethical and criminal. Tantamount to muder. But you'd get those "good" psychosomatic figures.

Kumar

19th October 2003, 11:34 AM

A few years ago I hit four deer at once at 45 miles per hour, and killed two outright. The cop I told this to laughed when I told them I bowled over four deer and I never put as much as a scratch in my car, including the plastic on the front of the car. A month later i killed another deer the same way. Only THAT time, I took a chip out of the plastic. Other cars I have seen that hit deer, get caved-in in the front, and they have to pull over because their radiators are leaking.

Killing unnecessarily or otherwise without justified reason or by carelessness is not a God's liking. How HE will then help ?

All the prayers & other spritual aspects are linked through the mental state which is not a physical entity so can't effect any other physical thing. Some changes in physical body can be possible by these sprituals but through the mind only.

triadboy

19th October 2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Iamme
Mercutio---:D

Here is the story: I had been swimming with... (get ready)...my glasses on. I was about 14 at the time. They came off in maybe 4-7 feet of water near a dock. I looked and looked. I got up on the dock and looked down. I couldn't find them. I went up to my aunts house and told her. She came down to the dock. She knew I HAD to have those glasses. I was 'up north' visiting, almost 300 miles from home, and I was quite blind without my glasses. So, we prayed, together. I open my eyes...and there they were. I found them right away. Sounds trivial...silly...luck-like.......who knows?

Just like Homer Simpson praying to find the remote to the TV...when he opened his eyes - there it was sticking out from under the couch. He eventually became so religious he somehow sued for ownership of the church - moved in - and had a drunken party to celebrate.

Luciano

19th October 2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by evildave
Before their operations, they were randomly split into two groups, and half were prayed for by Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims.

The real problem is they were praying to the wrong gods.
The only true God is Nanabozo! :D

Luciano

Iamme

19th October 2003, 04:25 PM

evildave---I am an agnopstic, believe it or not...and have been such since about 14 years old.

These 'miracle' prayers were...well... with my aunt? I always liked my aunt. It was her idea. The deer thing: I never said a prayer. But I did entertain the notion that IF there were a God, perhaps my now dead aunt is in charge of me, and I am being looked after. Like I said...agnostic (not atheist). Regarding the lump on my knee? That was indeed most strange. I had not been to a church for a regular service for YEARS. But on a whim, that particular night, I thought I would challenge God, even though it says in the Bible that you should not challenge God. When the lump went away, I started ridiculing myself for even considering God had anything to do with it. That particular night before I went to bed, I sprawled out on my couch and was squishing that lump on the arm rest. Maybe THAT is what did it...and it was just a coincidence that that was the same night I decided to pray about it. Then, when the lump reappeared I entertained the POSSIBILITY that I was now cursed by God for putting into question whether or not a miracle took place.

I have stated this before in past posts: If I am to believe in miracles, like those that that Benny Hinn performs, I would only be convinced if things that were tangible to ones eye became healed, such as: Someone would grow their teeth back. Someone would grow their hair back. Or, as some other poster said, someone would grow their limbs back. But, the lump thing was pretty good...while it lasted (all of one day):mad:

Kumar

19th October 2003, 08:37 PM

Just concentrate on what I said. Prayers enhances concentrations,meditating power,movement of energy with in body etc. But not movements/effects on any outside thing. All are delusions. These things only acts on mental plane not on physical planes.

Suggestologist

19th October 2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by evildave
Yes, but the study would not be double-blind with the person knowing others were praying.

You show a lack of imagination in designing the double-blinding component. Half the study should be prayed for, while the other half is not. Then half of each subgroup is TOLD that they are being prayed for -- whether this is true or not -- and the other half is TOLD that they are NOT being prayed for -- whether true or not. I guarantee you that those who are TOLD that they are being prayed for (as long as they don't hold bitterness toward religious prayer -- and those would probably not volunteer for the study anyway) fare better than those TOLD that they were not being prayed for (whether they were prayed for or not).

After all, a statistically predictable portion of those people should've known ahead of time that they were being prayed for. Virtually all of them, probably. You can't have anything "bad" happen without half a dozen people clambering out of the woodwork to tell you they'll pray for you.

So, you really can't imply that these people were totally unaware that people were praying for them. There are priests/reverends/etc. who walk around room to room visiting patients just to let them know they're loved & prayed for & such.

So the only variable here is not knowing that ADDITIONAL prayer is occurring. And why should that matter?

It matters. And you could use a survey to track the influence of the additional prayer vs. default prayer.

Or perhaps it's a simple matter of it not mattering whether one person or a dozen prays for something - God only cares about the relevant facts. It ain't no democracy. The "relevant facts" just seem to be exactly the medical ones.

Perhaps if you really want to see the power of psychosomatic treatment, you should have a control group who you only scar with a knife while they're asleep and then tell them they had the surgery, tell them they're fine when they come in for checkups, and just let them go about their lives without the heart surgery.

This is basically done in some plastic surgery cases. I also vaguely remember reading something about this being done with heart-attack patients. The scar provides a physical reminder to the person that they are likely to die if they don't take better care of themselves.

Then you can have ALL of this group openly prayed for, and see what a difference it makes over proper medical treatment.

Of course, that would be utterly immoral, unethical and criminal. Tantamount to muder. But you'd get those "good" psychosomatic figures.

I don't agree that it would be immoral, unethical, or criminal -- if the doctors determine that surgery would have negligible impact on future heart-attacks and is therefore contraindicated due to the danger involved in the surgery itself. I don't know how many cases would qualify, or if any at all would -- but this would be quite ethical.

Yahweh

19th October 2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Kumar
Just concentrate on what I said. Prayers enhances concentrations,meditating power,movement of energy with in body etc. But not movements/effects on any outside thing. All are delusions. These things only acts on mental plane not on physical planes.
I dont know what "energy with in body" means. As far as I know, prayer doesnt have any effect on regulating digestion of sugar or passium in the blood.

Whatout when you use words like "mental plane" and "physical plane", those will tend to confuse people into thinking about chakra and kundalini and such. Instead, I recommend "subjective experience" and "objective experience".

evildave

19th October 2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Iamme
evildave---I am an agnopstic, believe it or not...and have been such since about 14 years old.

These 'miracle' prayers were...well... with my aunt? I always liked my aunt. It was her idea. The deer thing: I never said a prayer. But I did entertain the notion that IF there were a God, perhaps my now dead aunt is in charge of me, and I am being looked after. Like I said...agnostic (not atheist). Regarding the lump on my knee? That was indeed most strange. I had not been to a church for a regular service for YEARS. But on a whim, that particular night, I thought I would challenge God, even though it says in the Bible that you should not challenge God. When the lump went away, I started ridiculing myself for even considering God had anything to do with it. That particular night before I went to bed, I sprawled out on my couch and was squishing that lump on the arm rest. Maybe THAT is what did it...and it was just a coincidence that that was the same night I decided to pray about it. Then, when the lump reappeared I entertained the POSSIBILITY that I was now cursed by God for putting into question whether or not a miracle took place.

I have stated this before in past posts: If I am to believe in miracles, like those that that Benny Hinn performs, I would only be convinced if things that were tangible to ones eye became healed, such as: Someone would grow their teeth back. Someone would grow their hair back. Or, as some other poster said, someone would grow their limbs back. But, the lump thing was pretty good...while it lasted (all of one day):mad:

Well, the problem may be that you torment yourself with these whims. The same sort of thinking keeps those quarters going down into the slot machines at the casino.

"Maybe it'll work this time! No, THIS time! NO, THIS TIME!

Every so often, you get what seems like a BIG PAYOFF. People seem to forget all the lost quarters that led up to that "pay off".

Seriously though, if you're worried about a lump, the one to ask is a doctor. I lost a sister to cancer. "Just a piece of me" was what she thought. Turned out to be Melanoma. Got into her bones. Chemotherapy had it under control. Relapsed. Ended up in her brain. Not nice. Don't let it happen to you.

Fun2BFree

19th October 2003, 10:34 PM

The mental contortions that believers will go to keep the dream alive that we have more power to control reality and as in my signature the lengths they will go to avoid actually thinking....

Of course one answer is that all the prayers were answered....just sometimes the answer was no.

The apologists argument that prayer has some biofeedback like effect on the body via changes in the brain waves etc is typically the relgious thinking person's modus operandi--that is of giving credit to the BLACK BOX...as opposed to a rational person's approach-

Let's see the possibilities IF something actually really measurable and beneficial and tangible occurs with prayer:
A)There is a good stuff dispensing entity to which one must apply appropriately and thru proper channels
B)No such entity exists and therefore the good stuff is coming from somewhere else.
i)one can try to keep channelling this good stuff in this manner which has been shown to be not completely reliable
ii)or one could try to further study the actual biochemical phenomenon that occurs and find more efficient reliable ways of tapping into that phenomenon

The analogy would be the discovery of some herbal remedy for cancer that has some spotty success (like was used in China for a particular type of leukemia) Instead of just accepting that it works- rational scientists studied it- found it worked, how it worked and have perfected it and other treatments as a result and clarified our understanding of the genetic makings of leukemias in general...

As a rule, mystical explanations, supernatural explanations have yet to ever be shown to be reliable, accurate or reproducible...They are 0 for ever.....how many times does a general principle have to be shown to be false before you stop counting on it?