Nuremberg:Fair Trial or Show Trial?

[Mondial]

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The media propaganda is that the defendants received a fair trial but the facts stand in the way. Some of those on trial claimed torture - most notably Julius Streicher. Rudolf Hess flew to Britain to end the war - at Nuremberg he was charged with "crimes against the peace"! When asked when he first heard about a genocide of Jews, Hermann Goering replied "right here at Nuremberg"! The reasons for the trial were political as the countries doing the prosecuting were guilty of similar crimes as the accused. The Soviet prosecutor charged the defendants with the Katyn massacre of Polish officers, for instance. In 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted the Soviet Union was responsible for this atrocity.

Links removed.

[Gazpacho]

Where did you copy and paste this from?

[MG1962]

It is funny, lets remove everything regarding the holocaust and attacks on the Jews. We have the same group of defendents facing war crimes and crimes against peace charges.

I suppose then Goering would have been shocked to hear about WW2

I may stand corrected on this, but not all defendents were found guilty of all charges. And in a few instances, the prosecutors failed to get the sentence they wanted

You dont usally see that in a show trial.

[gumboot]

If it was indeed a show trial, I protest the lack of colour video. Pathetic. And where were the fireworks and handling display performed by trained monkeys riding on American Miniature Ponies.

It's just not a show trial without monkeys and ponies.

[Corsair 115]

I may stand corrected on this, but not all defendents were found guilty of all charges.As well, the length of sentences varied, it's not as if all were condemned to hang. Some even had their sentences reduced some years later.

[drkitten]

The media propaganda is that the defendants received a fair trial but the facts stand in the way. Some of those on trial claimed torture - most notably Julius Streicher. Rudolf Hess flew to Britain to end the war - at Nuremberg he was charged with "crimes against the peace"! When asked when he first heard about a genocide of Jews, Hermann Goering replied "right here at Nuremberg"! The reasons for the trial were political as the countries doing the prosecuting were guilty of similar crimes as the accused. The Soviet prosecutor charged the defendants with the Katyn massacre of Polish officers, for instance. In 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted the Soviet Union was responsible for this atrocity.
www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html)
NOT GUILTY AT NUREMBERG THE GERMAN DEFENSE CASE
www.cwporter.com/innocent.htm (http://www.cwporter.com/innocent.htm)
Other links to war crimes trials info -
www.codoh.com/trials/trials.html (http://www.codoh.com/trials/trials.html)


More lies from the IHR. As a general rule, anything and everything hosted at IHR is a) anti-semitic, and b) factually-inaccurate.

[fuelair]

The media propaganda is that the defendants received a fair trial but the facts stand in the way. Some of those on trial claimed torture - most notably Julius Streicher. Rudolf Hess flew to Britain to end the war - at Nuremberg he was charged with "crimes against the peace"! When asked when he first heard about a genocide of Jews, Hermann Goering replied "right here at Nuremberg"! The reasons for the trial were political as the countries doing the prosecuting were guilty of similar crimes as the accused. The Soviet prosecutor charged the defendants with the Katyn massacre of Polish officers, for instance. In 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted the Soviet Union was responsible for this atrocity.
www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html)
NOT GUILTY AT NUREMBERG THE GERMAN DEFENSE CASE
www.cwporter.com/innocent.htm (http://www.cwporter.com/innocent.htm)
Other links to war crimes trials info -
www.codoh.com/trials/trials.html (http://www.codoh.com/trials/trials.html)
Actually, I agree that the Nuremburg Trials were not fair. If they had been, the Nazis would have been tortured to death over several days rather than being swiftly hanged OR just imprisoned.

[ddt]

I don't know why I'm even taking the time to respond to a well-known Holocaust denier, but even the arguments are so inane:


The media propaganda is that the defendants received a fair trial but the facts stand in the way. Some of those on trial claimed torture - most notably Julius Streicher.
Streicher - yes, the editor of Der Stürmer is known for his accuracy in truth.


Rudolf Hess flew to Britain to end the war - at Nuremberg he was charged with "crimes against the peace"!
Allegedly to make peace with Britain. You're conveniently forgetting about Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and France.


When asked when he first heard about a genocide of Jews, Hermann Goering replied "right here at Nuremberg"!
And Göring is known for telling the truth?


The reasons for the trial were political as the countries doing the prosecuting were guilty of similar crimes as the accused. The Soviet prosecutor charged the defendants with the Katyn massacre of Polish officers, for instance. In 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted the Soviet Union was responsible for this atrocity.
And two wrongs do make a right? Then the German criminals should not be prosecuted? Some other countries might have done some of the things Germans were charged for at Nuremberg, but none of them have premeditated started a World War or waged genocide against Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and many other groups.

[MRC_Hans]

The sad fact that some people on the other side should actualy also have been on trial for war atrocities in no way cleans the Nazi leaders.

The sad fact that justice is very much dictated by the winner in no way dimineshes the crimes committed by the Nazi leaders.

The sad fact that some, probably guilty, Nazists were let off because they were useful to the allies after the war in no way aquits those convicted.

There were certainly things that could have been done differently, and which would probably have been handled differently today, but pity on those convicted at Nüremberg? No.

Hans

[ddt]

I may stand corrected on this, but not all defendents were found guilty of all charges. And in a few instances, the prosecutors failed to get the sentence they wanted

Some were even fully acquitted, e.g., Franz von Papen:
The court acquitted Papen and stated that he had in the court's view committed a number of "political immoralities," but that these actions were not punishable under the "conspiracy to commit crimes against peace" charged in Papen's indictment.

[Soapy Sam]

"Ze rockets go up...und ze rockets come down.
'Who cares where they landed?' says Werner von Braun".

Scheisse happens.

Does anyone honestly expect that the trial of the leaders of a nation which instigated a war of this scale would be fair and free of bias ?
Does anyone honestly think that , had the Axis won, there would have been any trials at all of allied leaders? Get real.

[CptColumbo]

It is funny, lets remove everything regarding the holocaust and attacks on the Jews. We have the same group of defendents facing war crimes and crimes against peace charges.

I suppose then Goering would have been shocked to hear about WW2

I may stand corrected on this, but not all defendents were found guilty of all charges. And in a few instances, the prosecutors failed to get the sentence they wanted

You dont usally see that in a show trial.
By the numbers.
The indictments were for:
1. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace.
2. Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
3. War crimes
4. Crimes against humanity

81 indictments were handed down of which 52 were guilty verdicts.
Martin Borman: Guilty on 3 & 4. Not guilty on 1. Death.
Karl Donitz: Guilty on 2 & 3. Not guilty on 1. 10 years.
Hans Frank: Guilty on 3 & 4. Not guilty on 1. Death
Wilhelm Frick: Guilty on 2, 3 & 4. Not guilty on 1. Death
Hans Fritzsche: Not Guilty on 1, 2 & 3. Acquitted
Walther Funk: Guilty on 2, 3 & 4. Not guilty on 1. Life imprisonment. Released in 1957.
Hermann Goering: Guilty on all counts. Death.
Rudolf Hess: Guilty 1 & 2. Not Guilty 3 & 4. Life imprisonment.
Alfred Jodl: Guilty on all counts. Death.
Ernst Kaltenbrunner: Guilty on 3 & 4. Not guilty on 1. Death
Wilhelm Keitel: Guilty on all counts. Death.
Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach: Indicted for 1, 2 & 3. Found unfit for trial.
Robert Ley: Indicted for 1, 2 & 3. Committed suicide before trial.
Baron Konstantin von Neurath: Guilty on all counts. 15 years. Released after 9 years.
Franz von Papen: Not guilty of 1 & 2. Acquitted.
Erich Raeder: Guilty of 1, 2, & 3. Life imprisonment. Released in 1955
Joachim von Ribbentrop: Guilty on all counts. Death.
Alfred Rosenberg: Guilty on all counts. Death.
Fritz Sauckel: Guilty on 3 & 4. Not Guilty on 1 & 2. Death.
Dr. Hjalmar Schacht: Not guilty on 1 & 2. Acquitted.
Baldur von Schirach. Guilty on 4. Not guilty on 1. 20 years.
Arthur Seyss-Inquart: Guilty on 2, 3 & 4. Not guilty of 1. Death.
Albert Speer: Guilty on 3 & 4. Not Guilty on 1 & 2. 20 years.
Julius Streicher: Guilty on 4. Not guilty on 1. Death.

Of the 24 accused only 12 were sentenced to death and 11 were executed (Goering committed suicide before execution). 3 were acquitted and released.

[CptColumbo]

"Ze rockets go up...und ze rockets come down.
'Who cares where they landed?' says Werner von Braun".

Scheisse happens.

Does anyone honestly expect that the trial of the leaders of a nation which instigated a war of this scale would be fair and free of bias ?
Does anyone honestly think that , had the Axis won, there would have been any trials at all of allied leaders? Get real.After the defeat of France, the Germans held 1,575,000 French citizens prisoner (and used some for slave labor) in Germany with no trial until 1945. Of them 24,600 died.

ETA Source:
Durand, Yves. La Captivite, Histoire des prisonniers de guerre francais 1939 - 1945, Paris, 1981. pg 21
http://www.amazon.com/Histoire-Deuxi%C3%A8me-Guerre-mondiale-Durand/dp/2870277407/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215871541&sr=1-1

[TX50]

After the defeat of France, the Germans held 1,575,000 French citizens prisoner (and used some for slave labor) in Germany with no trial until 1945. Of them 24,600 died.


So what? The Soviets took at least 3 million German soldiers and
several hundred thousand German civilians captive and held these
largely without trial until 1955 in many cases. Of these, approximately
500,000 died in captivity and a further 500,000 remain unaccounted
for.

source: Stiftung Sächsische Gedenkstätten of the state government
of Saxony. http://www.stsg.de/main/stsg/ueberblick/dokumentationsstelle/kgf.php

[CptColumbo]

So what? The Soviets took at least 3 million German soldiers and
several hundred thousand German civilians captive and held these
largely without trial until 1955 in many cases. Of these, approximately
500,000 died in captivity and a further 500,000 remain unaccounted
for.

source: Stiftung Sächsische Gedenkstätten of the state government
of Saxony. http://www.stsg.de/main/stsg/ueberblick/dokumentationsstelle/kgf.phpIt was in response to the quoted post, as a measure of what might have been expected had the Axis won WW2.

It was a reference I knew off hand. It would take me a few days to find the materials of how the Japanese and Italians treated the nations they defeated prior to their defeat. If the "Rape of Nanking" is any example of how the Japanese treat defeated nations, it probably wouldn't have gone well for the Allies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking