Multiple Bombs in Murrah Building Prove Inside Job

[TC329]

On April 17, 1995 Timothy McVeigh reportedly picked up a 20-foot Ryder truck from Elliott's Body Shop in Junction City. The truck was filled with roughly 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate, an agricultural fertilizer, and nitromethane, a highly volatile motor-racing fuel-a mixture also known as Kinepak or ANFO (ammonium nitrate/fuel oil).

At 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, the truck exploded in the street in front of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building. About 90 minutes later, McVeigh was stopped by an Oklahoma state trooper for driving a vehicle without a license plate, who then arrested him on a firearms charge. Two days later he was charged in the bombing. His friend Terry Nichols was arrested in Kansas, and formally charged with the bombing on May 10.

There are many problems with the official story of the bombing. Let's start with McVeigh's whereabouts on April 17.

McVeigh had been filmed by a security camera at a nearby McDonald's 24 minutes before the time stamped on the truck rental agreement, wearing clothes that did not match either of the men seen at Elliott's.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/macdnlds.gif

There is no plausible explanation of how he traveled the mile and a quarter from McDonald's to the rental agency, carless and alone as he claims, without getting soaked in the rain.

The three people interviewed agreed John Does 1 and 2 were dry. According to Stephen Jones, who has seen the interview transcripts, it took 44 days for the FBI to convince the car rental agency owner that John Doe 1 was Timothy McVeigh. And in the end they did not dare put him on the witness stand, for fear of what might happen under cross-examination.

There is also an unanswered question with regard to the truck, namely what was the Army doing with a Ryder Truck just before the Murrah blast?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/TRUCK/DETAIL.gif

The biggest problem with the official story of the bombing are early news reports of the incident:

"...here's now what we are starting to learn about the succession, or what someone obviously hoped would be a succession of explosions. The first bomb that was in the federal building did go off ... the second explosive was found and defused. The third explosive that was found and they are working on it right now ... both the second and third explosives, if you can imagine this, were larger than the first. ... It is just incredible to think that there was that much heavy artillery that was somehow moved into the downtown Oklahoma City federal building."

"...this is the work of a sophisticated group, this is a very sophisticated device, and it has to have been done by an explosives expert."

These and many other corroborating reports can be seen in Reichstag 911's OKC section (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5otVYUhQ44)

Additional bombs are also reported in this CNN transcript (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/CNN.html).

The Murrah building was not destroyed by a single truck bomb - the Eglin blast effects study and General Partin's Report prove this is the case.

The Eglin Blast Effects Study (http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_01.htm)


Please note I will put everyone on ignore who uses ad-homs in this thread.

I expect to see a full rebuttal on the Eglin Blast Effects Study as well and I will continue to post more evidence in this thread.

[TC329]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/bible.jpg

Tiffany Bible was a paramedic called to the Murrah Building following the bombing. This affidavit reports three important facts:

1. The ATF were not in the building.

2. That the ATF was already putting out a story that the Murrah Building was bombed "because of Waco" only a few hours after the actual blast and before Tim McVeigh was even arrested.

3. That an unexploded bomb was found attached to a gas line inside the building.

[TC329]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/blanchard.jpg

Arlene was a survivor of the bombing. In this press release, issued at the time of her grand jury appearance, she reveals that she was ordered to keep silent about what she knew of the bombing by the Army under threat of court martial.

[TC329]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/dod.jpg

This memo, issued 36 hours after the bombing, reports at least two additional bombs were found in the Murrah Building.

[TC329]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/fema1.jpg

This FEMA memo also reports at least two additional bombs were found in the Murrah Building.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/fort1.jpg

Again, confirmation of at least two additional bombs which were found in the Murrah Building.

Rule 4 Violation: You will not post "copyright-protected1" material in its entirety, including "hotlinking2" to images or other media. Any further violations will be deleted and there will be an infraction.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Micheal Rivero's been makin' @#$% up again, huh?

[A W Smith]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2380904&postcount=4

Welcome to February 2007 Dom

[defaultdotxbe]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/dod.jpg

This memo, issued 36 hours after the bombing, reports at least two additional bombs were found in the Murrah Building.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/fema1.jpg

This FEMA memo also reports at least two additional bombs were found in the Murrah Building.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/fort1.jpg

Again, confirmation of at least two additional bombs which were found in the Murrah Building.
these were training devices used for, well, training

you may have noticed several law enforcement agencies occupied the building

[TC329]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2380904&postcount=4

Welcome to February 2007 Dom

Do reports of "additional explosives found" appear in some official documents in the IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH of the bombing? Yes, they do.

"Ooh, that's damning!"
Don't get excited. The CTers leave out a few details.

"So what are those reports about?"
Bomb scares. The scares were quickly cleared and rescue work resumed. No bombs or other explosives were found.

gravy lies again.

i posted sworn affidavits from eyewitnesses to the contrary in this thread and can present more. people saw the bombs.

was gravy there that day?

no?

then his word against the eyewitnesses and their sworn affidavits. your hero gravy comes out on the bottom again.

thanks for wasting everyones time with mark roberts garbage yet again.

[TC329]

Micheal Rivero's been makin' @#$% up again, huh?

no those are sworn affidavits. if you really cared about the truth you could actually obtain copies yourself. :jaw-dropp

[TC329]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/ock_log1.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/ock_log2.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/ock_log3.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/ock_log4.jpg

These four pages are the radio log of the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

Note that the reports of additional bombs are confirmed by the fire department.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/steele1.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/steele2.jpg

Virgil Steele is the elevator inspector who discovered that the story told by a senior BATF agent about being trapped in a plummeting elevator was a lie. The elevators were in working order except for being without power, and nobody had been trapped in them. Virgil also sees two additional bombs being removed from the building.

[TC329]

This is the dictation tape made by a lawyer which captures the sounds of the blast which destroyed the Oklahoma Federal Building on April 19th, 1995. Note the sounds of a rattle which precedes the blast by one second. This sound is the surface wave from the ANFO Truck Bomb which arrives ahead of the airborne concussion, traveling through the Earth's surface. 4.2 seconds ahead of the start of the rattle, a "thump" is heard on the tape, overlapping the second syllable of the word "attorneys".

MP3 (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/clean_lawyer.mp3)

Events marked on the jpg file

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/spectrum2.jpg


1. The thump at -4.2 seconds.
2. An airborne event which arrives at the correct place to be associated with event 1, if it originates at the same location as the truck bomb itself.
3. This marks the start of the arrival of the surface wave from the truck bomb. On the tape, this can be heard as a rattle building under the lawyer's voice. Note that unlike the lawyer's voiceprints, which show clear banding in frequency, the sounds from the truck bomb surface wave are smoothly distributed in the lower frequencies.
4. This is the arrival of the airborne concussion from the truck bomb. Like the surface wave, this signal lacks the striations of the lawyer's voice. The most notable difference is the sudden transition to high frequency components.

Note that the Surface Wave / Air Wave delays are identical in both cases, indicating similar distances from the recording device.

When I originally heard this tape, I discarded the "pop" at the -4.2 second mark as just noise on the tape. However, when the Water Board tape (which follows) also had an artifact at the -4.2 second mark, I ran a frequency domain audio spectrogram on the lawyer's dictation tape. The spike corresponding to the pop at the -4.2 second mark is circled. The other event marks were added later. The stripe at the top is electronic noise, possibly from the dictation machine itself.

At the time when the Truck Bomb exploded outside the Murrah Federal Building on April 19th, The Oklahoma Water Board was meeting in a building diagonally across the street. 4.2 seconds prior to the truck bomb blast, a loud "thump" is heard on the tape, just as the speaker finishes the phrase," are four elements that I have to..".

On this tape, the speaker pauses after the thump is heard, and just prior to the main blast, if you listen real close, other voices can be heard just starting to speak up.

MP3 (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/whole_thing_16k.mp3)

From the above evidence, it is clear that an event which generated a high frequency surface wave which preceded the main truck bomb blast by 4.2 seconds. This event was recorded at two different locations at distances of 100 yards and 1/3 of a mile. Because the 4.2 second interval remains constant at both distances, theories of mechanism producing echoes are eliminated. Because the spectrogram of the lawyer's tape shows BOTH surface and airborne waves separated by 4.2 seconds from BOTH surface and airborne waves of the truck bomb, arguments of a surface/air phenomenon are invalid. Two events at the Murrah building 4.2 seconds apart produced two sets of surface/air pairs 4.2 seconds apart at the lawyer's office.

These images are scans of the seismographic output from the Norman Oklahoma Z-axis recorder for April 19th and May 23rd; the bombing and the demolition respectively. This is the raw data which led Ray Brown and Charles Mankin to decide that there may have been a second explosion. It turns out that the 10 second delay is caused by differing propagation times through the layers of shale and sandstone that lie under Oklahoma City.


April 19th: The Bombing of the Murrah Building
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/ok_geo.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/lo_19.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/hi_19.jpg

May 23rd: The Sequenced Demolition of the Murrah Building

The additional spikes on this record are caused by wind flexing the radio antenna which is used to transmit the data to the Oklahoma Geological Survey.

Seismographic record of the Murrah Building Demolition

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/lo_22.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/hi_22.jpg

Note that the 8 second long sequenced demolition of the remainder of the Murrah Building yielded a trace the same length as the original bombing. The first trace, if indeed a single explosion, should be shorter. But it isn't, suggesting that BOTH events consisted of multiple sequenced detonations over several seconds' duration.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

no those are sworn affidavits. if you really cared about the truth you could actually obtain copies yourself. :jaw-dropp

Seriously, 8 out of 10 of your links were to "jewsreallydidit.com".

The only thing you left out in your post spam was the sentence "I'm not an anti-semite, but this eerily matches the pattern laid out in the Protocols of Zion".

[beachnut]

You lack evidence for OKC and 9/11. Now it is clear, you just like fantasy and do not care anything about reality. What causes such paranoia to make up or believe the made up ideas on OKC? Are the causes the same for OKC, as for 9/11?

[A W Smith]

quote mining again Dom?

gravy lies again.

i posted sworn affidavits from eyewitnesses to the contrary in this thread and can present more. people saw the bombs.

was gravy there that day?

no?

then his word against the eyewitnesses and their sworn affidavits. your hero gravy comes out on the bottom again.

thanks for wasting everyones time with mark roberts garbage yet again.
"Then what WAS removed from the site? Lots of eyewitnesses saw things being taken away by the bomb squads."
Dummy explosives used by the BATF for training exercises, and a shoulder-mounted TOW missile launcher, still in its shipping case, with an INERT warhead and a small amount of solid propellant.

"What? A missile launcher? See, I told you those government bastards were up to something!"
Yeah, they were up to catching criminals. The missile was to be used in a "buy-and-bust" arms-purchasing sting operation. (http://www.okcbombing.org/News%20Articles/missile_murrah.htm)

I'm getting pretty sick of reading about CTers disparaging first responders who are doing exactly what they're supposed to do. Here, a typically classy CTer calls OK City police and fire dept. bomb squads "stupid."


shame shame shame dom. on your last post above you are hot linking images again and quoting entire bodies of text without citing source.

i see library lady caught you as i was editing my post

here's how i found your.. ahem... what really happened's text.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=These+images+are+scans+of+the+seismographic+outp ut+from+the+Norman+Oklahoma+Z-axis+recorder+for+April+19th+and+May+23rd%3B+the+b ombing+and+the+demolition+respectively.+This+is+th e+raw+data+which+led+Ray+Brown+and+Charles+Mankin+ to+decide+that+there+may+have+been+a+second+explos ion.+It+turns+out+that+the+10+second+delay+is+caus ed+by+differing+propagation+times+through+the+laye rs+of+shale+and+sandstone+that+lie+under+Oklahoma+ City.&btnG=Google+Search

[steve s]

I posted the following in the thread about CDI, but I'll post it here for those who didnt' see it.

Not this nonsense again. You're not familiar with the transfer beam, are you? It was a giant horizontal concrete beam which supported the weight of everything above the second floor. Once McVeigh's bomb took out that beam, there was nothing to support the upper floors. Without anything to support them, the upper floors collapsed. It's called G-R-A-V-I-T-Y.

Steve S.

[Bobert]

Hey Dom when will your fantasies resutl in a real court hearing with real people and real evidence.
Let me answer that for you:
NEVER.

[Drudgewire]

http://www.thejewsdidit.com (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com)

[TC329]

of course. fake bombs were planted and dismantled on the same day another bomb inside the building just happened to have detonated while the day care centers were full and the atf offices were empty.

yeah mark roberts and company aren't gullible at all.

people are told to back up because atf not on the 'in' find bombs and warn people to back up while they dismantle them. then they're seen taking the bombs off site. and there just happened to be an explosion in the building. and the government wont release the 12+ videos that captured the attack on film.

so the bombs people saw being dismantled and taken out were fake not duds.

now i see what excuse you would have used had there been undetonated bombs recovered from the scene reported by the media and confirmed by eyewitnesses in sworn affidavits which anyone can obtain copies of if they weren't too busy attacking the source used, is that they were fake ones.

wow.

congrats. you win. i dont have an argument against :

all the other bombs taken out of the building were fake ones and im not looking at any of the audio evidence or the eglin blast effect report either. they were fakes. you troothers believe anything!!!!111!!!!!!!!11!!11

[TC329]

I posted the following in the thread about CDI, but I'll post it here for those who didnt' see it.

Not this nonsense again. You're not familiar with the transfer beam, are you? It was a giant horizontal concrete beam which supported the weight of everything above the second floor. Once McVeigh's bomb took out that beam, there was nothing to support the upper floors. Without anything to support them, the upper floors collapsed. It's called G-R-A-V-I-T-Y.

Steve S.

The Eglin Blast Effects Study (http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_01.htm)

debunks that nonsense.

[Bobert]

TC,
Funny how you like to cite all kinds of stuff and act as though it is proof yet you claim that a "wall breaching kit" was used to blow up the pentagon walls and when asked to provide proof you slither off.

[steve s]

debunks that nonsense.


Total Bovine Scatology. I didn't see anything in there about the transfer beam. Apparently they weren't aware of how the building was built either, which accounts for them saying stupid things like the bomb couldn't have done all that damage. They (and you) are missing the point. The bomb didn't do all that damage. All the bomb had to do was take out the transfer beam. Once that was gone, gravity did the rest. Which explains why only the front of the building collapsed.

They also keep talking about cutting charges on vertical columns. Again, they don't seem to be aware of the transfer beam. That transfer beam was found lying on its side just inside the building. The blast wave from the bomb rolled it back off its supporting columns leaving the upper floors unsupported. Please tell me how cutting charges would accomplish that.


Steve S.

[TC329]

Seriously, 8 out of 10 of your links were to "jewsreallydidit.com".

The only thing you left out in your post spam was the sentence "I'm not an anti-semite, but this eerily matches the pattern laid out in the Protocols of Zion".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Virgil+Steele+okc

its real easy to corroborate all of the claims instead of ad-homs directed at the source used.

you guys cant possibly get anymore transparent around here.......

[defaultdotxbe]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Virgil+Steele+okc

its real easy to corroborate all of the claims instead of ad-homs directed at the source used.

you guys cant possibly get anymore transparent around here.......
from your first 3 results:

The 1995 Oklahoma City Bombing - PROOF there were additional ...
Virgil Steele is the elevator inspector who discovered that the story ... GREER did work in that office for FEMA at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. ...
www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/bombs/bombs.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


HOTT - Oklahoma City Bombing Cover-Up
It's time to collect all the hard facts about Oklahoma City, ... Virgil Steele is the elevator inspector who discovered that the story told by a senior BATF ...
www.hourofthetime.com/okcbombingcoverup.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


The 1995 Oklahoma City Bombing - PROOF there were additional ...
The Oklahoma City Bombing. PROOF there were additional explosive charges. ... Virgil Steele is the elevator inspector who discovered that the story told by ...
www.veteranhosting.net/okc_bombs/bombs.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

even just looking at the snippet the search page gives you they are obviously all c/p'd from the same source, thats not corroboration

[TC329]

from your first 3 results:

even just looking at the snippet the search page gives you they are obviously all c/p'd from the same source, thats not corroboration

you're right.

all those other sites are using the same sworn affidavits as a source.

now is there some proof that this is a mike rivero/wrh forgery?

if not then the source i used for the sworn affidavits from eyewitnesses is irrelevant as these are real documents which you too can get a copy of.

[defaultdotxbe]

you're right.

all those other sites are using the same sworn affidavits as a source.

now is there some proof that this is a mike rivero/wrh forgery?

if not then the source i used for the sworn affidavits from eyewitnesses is irrelevant as these are real documents which you too can get a copy of.
if you want to call other members on attacking the host of the statement you are free to do that, but dont claim they are corroborated by showing another site hosting them (and clearly plagiarizing eachother)

[SezMe]

Please note I will put everyone on ignore who uses ad-homs in this thread.
Anyone who believes that the evidence cited in the OP provides a clear-cut case for a conspiracy is a complete whack-job.

How'd I do, TC? Did I make the cut?

[TC329]

if you want to call other members on attacking the host of the statement you are free to do that, but dont claim they are corroborated by showing another site hosting them (and clearly plagiarizing eachother)


is it your claim that these sworn affidavits are forgeries or that the witnesses are lying?

yes or no.

[TC329]

Anyone who believes that the evidence cited in the OP provides a clear-cut case for a conspiracy is a complete whack-job.

How'd I do, TC? Did I make the cut?

In a letter dated May 17, 1995, hand-delivered to each member of the Congress and Senate General Benton K. Partin. A retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General said :

When I first saw the pictures of the truck-bomb's asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforcing concrete column bases…. For a simplistic blast truck-bomb, of the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of 60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A-7 is beyond credulity.

Another man who knows a thing or two about bombs is Samuel Cohen, inventor of the Neutron Bomb. Cohen began his career on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, where he was charged with studying the effects of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During his 40 year career, Cohen worked with every application of nuclear weapons design and testing.

Cohen stated his position in a letter to Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key:
It would have been absolutely impossible and against the laws of nature for a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil… no matter how much was used… to bring the building down.

how do you think you did?

[Dave Rogers]

Please note I will put everyone on ignore who uses ad-homs in this thread.

TC329, you are a supporter of the absurd Pentagon fly-over theory, therefore all arguments advanced by you on other topics are invalid.

Is that good enough to win the prize?

Dave

[calebprime]

This is the dictation tape made by a lawyer which captures the sounds of the blast which destroyed the Oklahoma Federal Building on April 19th, 1995. Note the sounds of a rattle which precedes the blast by one second. This sound is the surface wave from the ANFO Truck Bomb which arrives ahead of the airborne concussion, traveling through the Earth's surface. 4.2 seconds ahead of the start of the rattle, a "thump" is heard on the tape, overlapping the second syllable of the word "attorneys".

MP3 (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/clean_lawyer.mp3)

Events marked on the jpg file

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/spectrum2.jpg


1. The thump at -4.2 seconds.
2. An airborne event which arrives at the correct place to be associated with event 1, if it originates at the same location as the truck bomb itself.
3. This marks the start of the arrival of the surface wave from the truck bomb. On the tape, this can be heard as a rattle building under the lawyer's voice. Note that unlike the lawyer's voiceprints, which show clear banding in frequency, the sounds from the truck bomb surface wave are smoothly distributed in the lower frequencies.
4. This is the arrival of the airborne concussion from the truck bomb. Like the surface wave, this signal lacks the striations of the lawyer's voice. The most notable difference is the sudden transition to high frequency components.

Note that the Surface Wave / Air Wave delays are identical in both cases, indicating similar distances from the recording device.

When I originally heard this tape, I discarded the "pop" at the -4.2 second mark as just noise on the tape. However, when the Water Board tape (which follows) also had an artifact at the -4.2 second mark, I ran a frequency domain audio spectrogram on the lawyer's dictation tape. The spike corresponding to the pop at the -4.2 second mark is circled. The other event marks were added later. The stripe at the top is electronic noise, possibly from the dictation machine itself.

At the time when the Truck Bomb exploded outside the Murrah Federal Building on April 19th, The Oklahoma Water Board was meeting in a building diagonally across the street. 4.2 seconds prior to the truck bomb blast, a loud "thump" is heard on the tape, just as the speaker finishes the phrase," are four elements that I have to..".

On this tape, the speaker pauses after the thump is heard, and just prior to the main blast, if you listen real close, other voices can be heard just starting to speak up.

MP3 (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/whole_thing_16k.mp3)

From the above evidence, it is clear that an event which generated a high frequency surface wave which preceded the main truck bomb blast by 4.2 seconds. This event was recorded at two different locations at distances of 100 yards and 1/3 of a mile. Because the 4.2 second interval remains constant at both distances, theories of mechanism producing echoes are eliminated. Because the spectrogram of the lawyer's tape shows BOTH surface and airborne waves separated by 4.2 seconds from BOTH surface and airborne waves of the truck bomb, arguments of a surface/air phenomenon are invalid. Two events at the Murrah building 4.2 seconds apart produced two sets of surface/air pairs 4.2 seconds apart at the lawyer's office.

These images are scans of the seismographic output from the Norman Oklahoma Z-axis recorder for April 19th and May 23rd; the bombing and the demolition respectively. This is the raw data which led Ray Brown and Charles Mankin to decide that there may have been a second explosion. It turns out that the 10 second delay is caused by differing propagation times through the layers of shale and sandstone that lie under Oklahoma City.


April 19th: The Bombing of the Murrah Building
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/ok_geo.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/lo_19.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/hi_19.jpg

May 23rd: The Sequenced Demolition of the Murrah Building

The additional spikes on this record are caused by wind flexing the radio antenna which is used to transmit the data to the Oklahoma Geological Survey.

Seismographic record of the Murrah Building Demolition

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/lo_22.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/hi_22.jpg

Note that the 8 second long sequenced demolition of the remainder of the Murrah Building yielded a trace the same length as the original bombing. The first trace, if indeed a single explosion, should be shorter. But it isn't, suggesting that BOTH events consisted of multiple sequenced detonations over several seconds' duration.


I'm dubious about basing anything on poor-quality recordings.

I'm listening on Urei 809's in an anechoic room, and so I'm hearing a lot of detail.

I don't hear a buildup, and I don't understand about the 4.2 seconds.

What I hear on both recordings is an explosion that overloads the recorders, i.e., maxes out the auto-level control or limiter.

[roundhead]

Do a little reading up on this Terry Yeakey. One of the first cops/first responders to show up on site to help. He was by all accounts regarded as a hero..........




Chief William Citty

Oklahoma City Police Department

Do not post copyright material.

[SDC]

Roundhead, what is your source for that letter? I'll say it again: it is dishonest or at least disingenuous to fail to indicate your sources. Obviously it's copied from somewhere. Is this another Rule 4 situation?

[Drudgewire]

Sincerely,

Craig Roberts

Tulsa PD, Ret.


The woo is strong with this one. (http://www.riflewarrior.com/)

[roundhead]

Roundhead, what is your source for that letter? I'll say it again: it is dishonest or at least disingenuous to fail to indicate your sources. Obviously it's copied from somewhere. Is this another Rule 4 situation?

I fail to see what difference it makes as to who it is sourced from.Its a letter i copied verbatim....but, here is the source


http://www.riflewarrior.com/chief_william_citty.htm



Now if you have information this 27 year cop didnt write this letter, or its misquoted, lets see it.

[roundhead]

Home Page of Craig Roberts and Consolidated Press International




Craig Roberts has done it all...and written about it!

As an investigative journalist, his background includes four years in the United States Marine Corps as a rifleman and sniper, with one year of that in Vietnam (1965-66).

He is a retired Tulsa, Oklahoma police officer, having served as a patrol officer, investigator, TAC (Swat) team member, bomb tech, and helicopter pilot. During this time he had a parallel career in the military, serving in the Army Reserve as an infantry officer and intelligence officer. He retired in 2000 as a lieutenant colonel

[Foolmewunz]

I fail to see what difference it makes as to who it is sourced from.Its a letter i copied verbatim....but, here is the source


http://www.riflewarrior.com/chief_william_citty.htm



Now if you have information this 27 year cop didnt write this letter, or its misquoted, lets see it.


I believe Riflewarrior dot com is Wm. Craig Roberts' own site. He runs his own vanity press, too. He's a catch-all conspiradroid. Something fishy about everything to him.... from 911 to Lockerby to JFK to OKC to TWA800.

Knowing Roberts' work, the fact that he refers to it as "written to" rather than "sent to" is probably significant. It looks more like a blog article... or news op ed piece... sort of a "J'accuse!" for the modern era.

[roundhead]

I believe Riflewarrior dot com is Wm. Craig Roberts' own site. He runs his own vanity press, too. He's a catch-all conspiradroid. Something fishy about everything to him.... from 911 to Lockerby to JFK to OKC to TWA800.

Knowing Roberts' work, the fact that he refers to it as "written to" rather than "sent to" is probably significant. It looks more like a blog article... or news op ed piece... sort of a "J'accuse!" for the modern era.



So, a personal attack on a veteran, and long time police official, who obviously was well thought of professionally, as he was asked to help.

More to the point, what of his accusations?. I have read accounts of the dead officers widow, his actions that morning, and his death, from other sources. What of the wrist lacerations, etc, and the case files?

And if you are going to belittle somebody, i assume you have proof Roberts didnt send a letter to both police chiefs, and wasnt qualified to state what he did??

[defaultdotxbe]

is it your claim that these sworn affidavits are forgeries or that the witnesses are lying?

yes or no.
ive already stated my position, the 2 additional explosive devices found in the building were training devices

of the other statements i read, some dont seem to be saying anything, other than an independent investigation is needed (without stating any reason why) and others speak authoritatively, without giving any reason why the person giving the statement should be regarded as an authority

[Foolmewunz]

So, a personal attack on a veteran, and long time police official, who obviously was well thought of professionally, as he was asked to help.

More to the point, what of his accusations?. I have read accounts of the dead officers widow, his actions that morning, and his death, from other sources. What of the wrist lacerations, etc, and the case files?

And if you are going to belittle somebody, i assume you have proof Roberts didnt send a letter to both police chiefs, and wasnt qualified to state what he did??

Please cite me the personal attack. Which part of my post is not true?
You throw around words without understanding their meaning. I simply stated the credentials as they are available for anyone with basic reading skills.

Is he not the owner of the vanity press in question?
Is he not a believer in every conspiracy theory of the last two generations?

You might also note that I said, "Knowing Roberts' work..." I am familiar with him as I am with Shannan's discredited account of the Yeakey death. It's late over here and I have to get up early for work, but maybe I can tag-in one of the others, here. There are numerous people here who know considerably more than I do about OKC. We've been through this before.

[Drudgewire]

So, a personal attack on a veteran, and long time police official, who obviously was well thought of professionally, as he was asked to help.

I love how people who have no trouble maligning thousands of veterans and police officers as being "in on it" or dupes suddenly get on their high horse and declare the one dissenter amongst them above reproach.

So far beyond pathetic the rest of your post won't be read. Welcome to ignore.

[roundhead]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had offices in the Murrah Building. On the day the Murrah building was bombed, none of the ATF agents came to work that morning. The ATF agents, who had children in the day-care center, did not drop their children off that day. There were no ATF agents or their children on the casualty list of the Oklahoma City bombing. — Freedom Network News, June/July 1996, pp. 5, 6.




On a radio talk show ten days after the bombing,

[Mark] Boswell interviewed 28 year CIA veteran James Black and assistant Ron Jackson regarding sworn affidavits now in their possession, sworn by two Justice Department officials which state that they were part of a ‘Committee of 10’ who planned the Oklahoma bombing. — Martin O. de Brook, Cherith Chronicle, May-July, 1995, page 5.



The BATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) later said they were dummy bombs, but why would bomb sniffing dogs find, or be needed to locate dummy bombs which are clearly marked as such; furthermore, why would munitions technicians spend so much time diffusing "dummy" bombs? KFOR-TV said that another bomb had been located strapped to a column next to the day-care center.

Around the noon hour, Channel 4 had as their guest Dr. Randall Heather, a terrorist expert. Dr. Heather stated: "We got lucky today, if you can consider anything about this tragedy lucky. We have both of the bombs that were defused at the site and they are being taken apart. We will be able to find out how they were made, and possibly who made them. These bombs are very sophisticated high explosives with maybe a little fertilizer damped around them."

[defaultdotxbe]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had offices in the Murrah Building. On the day the Murrah building was bombed, none of the ATF agents came to work that morning. The ATF agents, who had children in the day-care center, did not drop their children off that day. There were no ATF agents or their children on the casualty list of the Oklahoma City bombing. — Freedom Network News, June/July 1996, pp. 5, 6.
source? (as in who told FNN no ATF agents came to work)

The BATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) later said they were dummy bombs, but why would bomb sniffing dogs find
why wouldnt they find them? they may well have been the same dummies they were trained with

or be needed to locate dummy bombs
did you see the buildign after the bombing?

which are clearly marked as such
so all a terrorist has to do is write 'Dummy - For Training Purposes" on a bomb and no one will consider it a threat?

furthermore, why would munitions technicians spend so much time diffusing "dummy" bombs?
have you ever heard the expression "better safe than sorry" ?

KFOR-TV said that another bomb had been located strapped to a column next to the day-care center.
because initial news reports are never EVER wrong (except when they dont fit the conspiracy theory)

[roundhead]

Dr. Roger Raubach doesn't believe the government. Raubach, who did his Ph.D. in physical chemistry and served on the research faculty at Stanford University, says, "General Partin's assessment is absolutely correct. I don't care if they pulled up a semi-trailer truck with 20 tons of ammonium nitrate; it wouldn't do the damage we saw there."

Raubach, who is the technical director of a chemical company, explained in an interview with The New American magazine:

"The detonation velocity of the shock wave from an ANFO (ammonium nitrate/fuel-oil) explosion is on the order of 3,500 meters per second. In comparison, military explosives generally have detonation velocities that hit 7,000 to 8,000-plus meters per second. The most energetic single-component explosive of this type, C-4 — which is also known as Cyclonite or RDX — is about 8,000 meters per second and above. You don't start doing big-time damage to heavy structures until you get into those ranges, which is why the military uses those explosives





Gronning, a licensed, professional blaster in Casper, Wyoming with 30 years experience in explosives, told The New American:

"The Partin letter states in very precise technical terms what everyone in this business knows: No truck-bomb of ANFO out in the open is going to cause the kind of damage we had there in Oklahoma City. In 30 years of blasting, using everything from 100 percent nitrogel to ANFO, I've not seen anything to support that story."[8]

In an interview with the author, Gronning said, "I set off a 5,000 lb ANFO charge. I was standing 1,000 feet from it, and all it did was muss my hair, take out the mud in the creek that we were trying to get rid of, and it shattered a few leaves off the trees around it. It didn't cause any collateral damage to any of the deeply set trees that were within 20 feet of it."

[GreNME]

Wait a minute: So Tim McVeigh is a liar? I could have sworn he's admitted, both officially and unofficially, to setting the bomb at the Murrah building.

[SDC]

No ATF agents' families came to the building so they must have been warned... Wait a minute, wait a minute, isn't there a similar statement about a certain group on 9/11? Jeez louise, the Mossad sure gets around.

[roundhead]

No ATF agents' families came to the building so they must have been warned... Wait a minute, wait a minute, isn't there a similar statement about a certain group on 9/11? Jeez louise, the Mossad sure gets around.


This should be something fairly easy to research..From the link i posted, it says no ATF agents or they're kids who use the daycare facility.

Question, were any ATF agents or any of they're children among the deaths or casualties?




From JD Cash 2008 McCurtain Daily Gazette


"Responding to press inquiries, the BATF at the time of the bombing said most of their agents had been out the night before on a surveillance operation and had slept in"

[roundhead]

From World affairs brief:

Rule 4 breach. Cite sources.
http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/oklahomacity.shtml

[uk_dave]

Most or all?

[roundhead]

From the same source as post 48............


"On the morning of April 19, 1995, the second anniversary of the federal assault on the Branch Davidian church complex in Waco, the ATF office at the Murrah Building was all but abandoned. Had they been warned of a possible attack? Compelling evidence led many survivors to begin asking questions about this. Bruce Shaw rushed to the building immediately after the blast to try to find his wife, an employee with the Federal Credit Union. In an interview with this reporter, and in sworn affidavits, Shaw said he was informed by an ATF agent at the scene that the ATF staff had been warned on their pagers not to come in. Two paramedics at the scene, in separate incidents, also reported hearing similar statements from ATF agents. The paramedics, Katherine Mallette and Tiffany Bible, have provided sworn affidavits of their testimony.

[uk_dave]

Lets play our own game of Personal Incredulity with the claims of Roberts....

Now, here are just a few of the items that do not figure in a "suicide":

And a few which don't figure in an 'assasination':
Yeakey's gunshot wound: Gunshot was from the upper right side of his skull downward to an exit wound below his left cheek bone. Hardly an angle of a self-inflicted wound. (See diagrams). This wound would be consistent to one fired "execution style" into the skull of a kneeling victim from an angle above and to one side of the victim.
Why shoot the victim in such an obvious execution style? If the victim was at the mercy of the assasin then the assasin could choose to inflict the wound in any way necessary to fake the 'suicide'. Are we to believe assasins can't even fake it now?

Wound was small caliber and left a small entrance and exit hole, with only "soot" at the entrance wound. It was a contact wound showing a barrel imprint, but there were now blasting (staration) effects of muzzle gases on the wound margins. This would be more indicative of a silencer that would absorb the gasses.
But surely a silencer would only be necessary if the 'execution' was carried out in the appartment. What evidence is there that the victim died in his apartment?

There were multiple cuts on his wrists, inner elbows, and jugular veins. If he was going to shoot himself, why would he cut himself so many times.
If he was to be assasinated why would they cut him so many times?

His estranged wife, Tonia, told me that she talked to the funeral home that received Yeakey's body, and that they told her there were rope marks around his neck, and handcuff marks on his wrists—none of which are indicated in the official medical examiner's report.
What do 'handcuff marks' look like? I thought he had cuts on his wrists. How expert was the person making this claim?

He was found in a field 1/2 mile from where his car was discovered by a Canadian County SO deputy. He had, in the middle of the night, crossed a barbed wire fence, a ditch/creek, and then "killed himself" in the middle of a pasture. Why go to that trouble? Why not just kill himself in his car, or his apartment?
Why not go to that trouble? Are we to believe it wasn't a suicide simply because he sought a secluded spot to end his life? Really?

He told a friend the afternoon he disappeared that he was being followed, and as soon as he shook his followers, he'd be back and meet him for dinner.
Really that easy eh? Throw them off then come back and have dinner with a friend? What friend? How reliable? How paranoid was the victim?

He also removed boxes of files from his apartment and had them in his car when he left to stash them in his mini-storage in Yukon (or El Reno--not sure which ). The files were not in his car when it was found.
Proof that the files existed?

Did anyone ever attempt to find the bullet that allegedly was used at the scene? I hope so, otherwise every single police officer who attended the scene must be in on it.
If so, were ballistics tests done to link it with a particular gun? See above
Was a gun found at the scene, and was it his gun?
See above
I ask this because it was relayed to me that no gun was found until after an hour after his body was located.
Ahhh so a gun was found then. Was it registered to a W. Clinton? Would the assasin fake a suicide and not leave a gun which could be traced back to the victim?

See? It's real easy to poke holes in this dross.

[roundhead]

Lets play our own game of Personal Incredulity with the claims of Roberts....



And a few which don't figure in an 'assasination':

Why shoot the victim in such an obvious execution style? If the victim was at the mercy of the assasin then the assasin could choose to inflict the wound in any way necessary to fake the 'suicide'. Are we to believe assasins can't even fake it now?

But surely a silencer would only be necessary if the 'execution' was carried out in the appartment. What evidence is there that the victim died in his apartment?

If he was to be assasinated why would they cut him so many times?

What do 'handcuff marks' look like? I thought he had cuts on his wrists. How expert was the person making this claim?

Why not go to that trouble? Are we to believe it wasn't a suicide simply because he sought a secluded spot to end his life? Really?

Really that easy eh? Throw them off then come back and have dinner with a friend? What friend? How reliable? How paranoid was the victim?


Proof that the files existed?
I hope so, otherwise every single police officer who attended the scene must be in on it.
See above

See above

Ahhh so a gun was found then. Was it registered to a W. Clinton? Would the assasin fake a suicide and not leave a gun which could be traced back to the victim?

See? It's real easy to poke holes in this dross.




Although the Yeakey incident occurred some thirty miles away in a different
jurisdiction, the investigation was quickly taken out of the hands of the El
Reno police and the Canadian County sheriff and turned over to the Oklahoma
City Police Department and the FBI. No homicide investigation was ever
conducted, and there was no autopsy.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Raubach, who is the technical director of a chemical company, explained in an interview with The New American magazine:

"The detonation velocity of the shock wave from an ANFO (ammonium nitrate/fuel-oil) explosion is on the order of 3,500 meters per second. In comparison, military explosives generally have detonation velocities that hit 7,000 to 8,000-plus meters per second. The most energetic single-component explosive of this type, C-4 — which is also known as Cyclonite or RDX — is about 8,000 meters per second and above. You don't start doing big-time damage to heavy structures until you get into those ranges, which is why the military uses those explosives

Keep in mind that the ANFO bomb MCVeigh used was situated 3 or 4 feet off the ground in the bed of the truck he used. One of the reasons the military often fuses shells and bombs so that they airburst is due to a phenomenon that increases the strength and hitting power of the blast wave.

When an explosive shockwave from an elevated detonation rebounds off the ground and meets the original shockwave, the blast strength of the wave at that point is dramatically increased. This is a phenomenon you can re-create in your kitchen sink at home. Just fill in with water and drop a pebble in it. The ripples will spread out, hitting the sides of the sink and where the rebounding ripples meet other ripples, they will almost double in size and height.

Long story short, through an accident of physics that McVeigh might not have even been aware of, his bomb tragically able to make up the missing strength it needed to take out that critical column.

[roundhead]

Keep in mind that the ANFO bomb MCVeigh used was situated 3 or 4 feet off the ground in the bed of the truck he used. One of the reasons the military often fuses shells and bombs so that they airburst is due to a phenomenon that increases the strength and hitting power of the blast wave.

When an explosive shockwave from an elevated detonation rebounds off the ground and meets the original shockwave, the blast strength of the wave at that point is dramatically increased. This is a phenomenon you can re-create in your kitchen sink at home. Just fill in with water and drop a pebble in it. The ripples will spread out, hitting the sides of the sink and where the rebounding ripples meet other ripples, they will almost double in size and height.

Long story short, through an accident of physics that McVeigh might not have even been aware of, his bomb tragically able to make up the missing strength it needed to take out that critical column.




Not according to a variety of professional sources (who have no dog in this fight) including, among others, Partin.

Did you see the quote regarding the blaster from Wyoming, who with a similar charge, didnt bother two trees standing 20 feet away?

There are enough tests and professional opinions out there to render the truck bomb and its effects that day a fallacy.

[beachnut]

Not according to a variety of professional sources (who have no dog in this fight) including, among others, Partin.

...
There are enough tests and professional opinions out there to render the truck bomb and its effects that day a fallacy.
Partin is wrong, not much of expert since he is wrong on this, is the nut case with the 800 weapon too? Good job finding a nut case with strange ideas on two full blown CTs of junk. You call Partin an expert, but he is a guy with nut case ideas. A big zero on the expert meter on this guy's ideas on OKC.

The single truck bomb is it. Sorry, there was proof in OKC, you should have gone to OKC. Please go there now and spew your lies, or is it just hearsay you gather as you string together junk ideas on OKC with no real action to go correct it. Better not, your ideas are pure fantasy and have no standing.

You have CT ideas on OKC and 9/11. Must be a trend of poor research and belief in liars, why are you so gullible?

Or...
To suggest anyone but McVeigh and Nichols were behind the OKC bombing is pure poppycock. If Fortier were not paranoid and into drugs, they may have turned in the too dumb white guys who decided to kill government people, but found children and the good people of OKC much easier. Finding it too hard to get away with it in Dallas, they had to blow up people who most likely helped McVeigh park his truck next to the Murrah Building.

Most people who fall for the lies about OKC you have presented, must not understand how big the bomb was that McVeigh made, and that he was essentially right next to the building like the car in this photo. The failed ideas you have outlined are due to the ignorance of the authors, and pure lies people love to spew.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/12447453f8494776fe.jpg

The lowest scum of the earth are those who repeat the fact less, evidence free tripe of Partin and other dirt dumb ideas about OKC. You must be posting the idiot ideas you have found on OKC, since you are a JREF skeptical kind of guy who knows the idiots who make up these failed ideas are trying to fool other, and you have clearly exposed them.

Some people have argued that seismic recordings of the event indicated multiple bombs. This contention was refuted by U.S. Geological Survey and Oklahoma Geological Survey scientists, who recorded and analyzed seismic signals from the demolition of the Murrah building. These demolition seismograms showed that the two pulses of energy recorded in Norman, OK from the bombing were due to the seismic response of the Earth rather than to multiple blast sources.(source - Dietel, C., Digital seismic recordings of the May 23, 1995, demolition of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USGS Open File Report 95-594, 1995.
How dumb/researched challenged/lacking rational, logical thinking challenged do those who make up this stuff you posted have to be to avoid all the evidence and make up, or believe the false information spread by charlatans on OKC? Those who spew the lies like the title of this thread are too ignorant on research methods, and lack knowledge on the topics required, to do any better.



Sad that people have to make up false conspiracy theories for a real conspiracy. What is the problem? Why do people want to make up lies about OKC? Is killing innocent people by a nut case too hard to understand? Are the people making up the ideas as dumb as McVeigh?

[roundhead]

Partin is wrong, not much of expert since he is wrong on this, is the nut case with the 800 weapon too? Good job finding a nut case with strange ideas on two full blown CTs of junk. You call Partin an expert, but he is a guy with nut case ideas. A big zero on the expert meter on this guy's ideas on OKC.

The single truck bomb is it. Sorry, there was proof in OKC, you should have gone to OKC. Please go there now and spew your lies, or is it just hearsay you gather as you string together junk ideas on OKC with no real action to go correct it. Better not, your ideas are pure fantasy and have no standing.

You have CT ideas on OKC and 9/11. Must be a trend of poor research and belief in liars, why are you so gullible?



Partin is perhaps the preiminent expert in the country on exactly this issue, the fact you try and dimish him personally, doesnt change that one bit.

His tests were well founded, and conclusive.


Like most on here, you swallow whatever the govt tells you hook line and sinker.

Since JFK, this country flat hasnt been the same. Independant thinking people, who question the drivel that has consistantly been rolled out (like the outright lies that got us into Iraq)are unfortunately, insufficient in number.

Quit being a parrot, and think for yourself. It will do you a world of good.



Let me guess, you probably believe the civil trial re MLK by Pepper is untrue also, right.

This place seems to be a bastion for official lie slurpage, its quite notable.

A piece of advice, retire from the Gazala line, its undefendable.

[chillzero]

Perhaps everyone could take a breath, and post with a little more civility, please?

[GreNME]

Since JFK, this country flat hasnt been the same. Independant thinking people, who question the drivel that has consistantly been rolled out (like the outright lies that got us into Iraq)are unfortunately, insufficient in number.

You mean the same JFK who betrayed thousands of Cuban people, nearly caused WWIII, and who got us into the mess that was Vietnam to begin with?

Look, you really don't have to respond to my posts-- like where I already pointed out how McVeigh admitted to the bombing in the first place-- but the stuff about JFK somehow being some kind of unsung hero is complete and total malarky that was sold to you to get you emotionally invested. Kennedy did some cool things, like the space program and pushing for civil rights in this country, but not all of the things he did were for the heroic purposes he's often mistaken as having. The space program was to develop rockets for ICBMs and to flaunt our technological supremacy to the world (mission accomplished). The civil rights legislation largely consisted of the pet projects proposed by Lyndon Johnson, whom Kennedy ran against in the primaries but needed in order to win southern states in the general election (basically political quid pro quo). Kennedy ran his first presidential campaign on an "I'm more anti-commie than Nixon" banner because he was, in fact, very hawkish when it came to the spread of communism in Asia (especially southeast Asia). However, make no mistake that Kennedy was a fairly liberal politician, and his ideas for healthcare and welfare would have bristled even modern libertarians and paleoconservatives. Also remember: it was Kennedy who created the Peace Corps, among other programs, that increased government's size.

So I can kind of understand being drawn to a compelling conspiracy theory, but trying to remake Kennedy's legacy into fitting the typical anti-government, anti-tax, anti-everything-but-libertarian-ideals batch of conspiracy rhetoric is just plain ridiculous.

In closing, simply answer me this: since McVeigh admitted to the bombing and had many years in prison from which to change his mind and expose the supposed conspiracy, why didn't he? The argument seems to fall apart when the accused perpetrator admits to actually perpetrating the crime.

[beachnut]

Partin is perhaps the preiminent expert in the country on exactly this issue, the fact you try and dimish him personally, doesnt change that one bit.

His tests were well founded, and conclusive.
No, Partin has zero evidence and his idea on this is clearly off the nut case scale. Did I miss the big frenzy over his ideas in the media? Or are people being polite to the guy with the nut case idea?

There are thousands of experts in this field who disagree, and that is why Partin has not Pulitzer Prize for his work that only shows he has crazy ideas on OKC. He also has crazy ideas on flight 800. Funny, you will not use his work on 9/11. Sad, when the crazy ideas fit the people who love to make up stuff, they use Partin, but when his ideas mirror what really happen, he is useless to those who make up false ideas on events, because they can.

Proof again we live in free country which lets people openly make up fantasies about anything they want.

Since it is so conclusive, you better submit the evidence for the Pulitzer Prize. Quick, it has been a while, someone could beat you to the truth. Oops! Doubt you or Partin will be going to pick up the Pulitzer. Sad.

[roundhead]

No, Partin has zero evidence and his idea on this is clearly off the nut case scale. Did I miss the big frenzy over his ideas in the media? Or are people being polite to the guy with the nut case idea?

There are thousands of experts in this field who disagree, and that is why Partin has not Pulitzer Prize for his work that only shows he has crazy ideas on OKC. He also has crazy ideas on flight 800. Funny, you will not use his work on 9/11. Sad, when the crazy ideas fit the people who love to make up stuff, they use Partin, but when his ideas mirror what really happen, he is useless to those who make up false ideas on events, because they can.

Proof again we live in free country which lets people openly make up fantasies about anything they want.

Since it is so conclusive, you better submit the evidence for the Pulitzer Prize. Quick, it has been a while, someone could beat you to the truth. Oops! Doubt you or Partin will be going to pick up the Pulitzer. Sad.



The sad TRUTH is, the govt has virtually complete control of the media. Were that not the TRUTH, well...it is the shamefull truth, i rest my case.


Dissent isnt allowed to be published if it isnt in lockstep with the official edict.

Sadly, the only parallel that comes to mind is late 30's Germany. Hitler was dead right in several areas, we should note these.

This one perhaps most telling of all...................


How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.



This one as well, holds sway..............If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

[GreNME]

http://independence.net/okc/mcveighletterfox.htm

A brief snippet:I explain herein why I bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong. I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation.

His own words. He goes into more detail for his motivations.

So, is McVeigh lying? Is he a liar?

[beachnut]

The sad TRUTH is, the govt has virtually complete control of the media. Were that not the TRUTH, well...it is the shamefull truth, i rest my case.


Dissent isnt allowed to be published if it isnt in lockstep with the official edict.

Sadly, the only parallel that comes to mind is late 30's Germany. Hitler was dead right in several areas, we should note these.

This one perhaps most telling of all...................


How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.



This one as well, holds sway..............If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
Only a neoNAZI is dumb enough to believe this tripe. Hitler, the nut case leader who hated Jews enough to make an industry to kill them? Looks like Hitler was pure nuts, driven by hate. Like Partin, Hitler got the important, and moral things WRONG.

When you and Partin have a Pulitzer Prize with all this conclusive tripe! Please come back and tell me I am a parrot again after you fail to get the Pulitzer! Are you going to submit your massive evidence bank to the Pulitzer Prize committee, cause since you say your are right this is a locked deal!

Go do it! Stop wasting your time posting your massive, solid, airtight, investigative excellence evidence or others can ace you out of your Pulitzer Prize! Break the story today!

If I had, what you say you have, I would be on the phone to make history. But the sad truth is you and Partin are the few who have no clue on OKC. Otherwise you would break the story NOW!

How ironic, you are the one that fits your own favorite Hitler saying, and not me.

[uk_dave]

Did you see the quote regarding the blaster from Wyoming, who with a similar charge, didnt bother two trees standing 20 feet away?


You would, of course, be prepared to stand 20 feet away from the detonation. :boggled:

You cite a los alamos scientist (or maybe it was TC, I can't really be arsed to check) with a claim that his knowledge of nuclear bombs makes him the ideal person to pontificate upon the structural perfomance of a building. See the problem with that?

You cite an ex cop (who apparently also worked as an investigative journalist and writer (novelist?)) who complains that his queries to the cheif of police were met with hostility and yet in his list of anomalies he questions whether they found a gun and then in the next sentence queries why they took an hour to find the gun. See the problem there? I bet the chief of police did.

You know, the world of the conspiracy theorist is populated with many retired experts, sometimes (but seldom) experts in the actual fields they seek to comment upon. But, you know, there is a reason why many professions (including the military) do like to let people go when they reach a certain age. And it doesn't always have anything to do with altruistic notions of allowing people to spend more time with their families.

One final thought. When a real investigation is carried out on a complex issue such as the OK bombing, the authorities and law enforcement tend to use a great many experts who specialise in very narrow fields of forensics and explosives and structures and medicine etc. They don't use the 'one size fits all' method of the 'truthers' who like to believe that just because some old guy has 40 years of experience playing with nuclear bombs (and when was the last time one of those was detonated above ground by the US (first person to say the wtc towers gets a slap)?) or an ex military type once flew a combat mission in vietnam, then they instantly become experts in structural engineering or civil aviation hijacking protocols or any number of other specialised fields which far exceed anything they would have ever dealt with during their professional careers.

In fact, out of the very many peculiar traits which 'truthers' exhibit when it comes to these matters, the one which stands out to me is a total lack of humility regarding their own abilities. I don't know if it's the school system, if it's genetic or what it is, but 'truthers' constantly amaze me with their ability to believe that they have the intellectual capacity to become expert in damn near anything so long as they have 'common sense', 'gut feeling' and google

The real world don't work like that.

[uk_dave]

This one as well, holds sway..............If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

Oh the irony. It's the 'truther' MO to a tee.:cool:

[Foolmewunz]

Although the Yeakey incident occurred some thirty miles away in a different
jurisdiction, the investigation was quickly taken out of the hands of the El
Reno police and the Canadian County sheriff and turned over to the Oklahoma
City Police Department and the FBI. No homicide investigation was ever
conducted, and there was no autopsy.

Good morning, TMers... fellow members of the forum. It's a lovely sunny day here in Hong Kong. We've had 25 consecutive days of rain up until Tuesday, and it's about time, I'd say. How are you guys doing? Hot enough for ya?
(Keeping it civil for CZ... it makes her day when we can be all polite and suff.)

So, Roundhead.... I just keep looking at the quoted post and trying to reconcile it with your other indignant posts. Perhaps you could help us out here.

On the one hand, Wm. Craig Roberts is a retired police officer who we are to respect and honor for his service and his chosen profession.
Yet, above, you're saying the entire OKC police department swept the Yeakey investigation under the rug? Do you know how cops react to cops getting murdered? If you want to discuss it, I would suggest discussing with other than tha OKC cops you're charging with this crime.

TMers don't think when they make broadbrush accusations. We see it in the first responder implicit accusations from GZ and the Pentagon, and it's clear here.

Please answer: Were the OKC police in on the cover up? Yes or No will sufice.

[Mobyseven]

CTer: Hah! So you're saying that a well respected police officer was lying? Are you disrespecting the poor dead police officer?

Representative of the sane: No, I'm not saying that at all. Besides which, why are you discounting the confession and testimony of McVeigh himself, who has admitted how and why he blew up the Murrah building?

CTer: McVeigh? You believe him? I thought you thought he was a bad person!

RotS: *facepalm*

[A W Smith]

Another man who knows a thing or two about bombs is Samuel Cohen, inventor of the Neutron Bomb. Cohen began his career on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, where he was charged with studying the effects of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During his 40 year career, Cohen worked with every application of nuclear weapons design and testing.

Cohen stated his position in a letter to Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key:
[/color]

Quote:
It would have been absolutely impossible and against the laws of nature for a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil… no matter how much was used… to bring the building down.




And Cohen gets even that wrong. It was not "Fuel Oil"

It was nitromethane. (http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/84/i48/8448notw2.html)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Not according to a variety of professional sources (who have no dog in this fight) including, among others, Partin.

That's not true at all. The behavior of wave phenomena is well established and taught to schoolchildren by such scientific luminaries as Bill Nye the Science Guy.

If you sources don't understand these effects then they are either not "professional" or they very much "have a dog in this fight" and are putting aside science to satisfy their personal biases.

Did you see the quote regarding the blaster from Wyoming, who with a similar charge, didnt bother two trees standing 20 feet away?

He didn't elevate the charge or place it above ground solid enough to reflect a strong secondary shockwave back up to the primary shockwave. As noted above, McVeighs bomb was 3 or four feet above ground and it was detonated over an ashphalt and concrete surface. An excellent surface for creating reflecting a strong secondary wave.

Your argument is therefore null and void.

[A W Smith]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had offices in the Murrah Building. On the day the Murrah building was bombed, none of the ATF agents came to work that morning. The ATF agents, who had children in the day-care center, did not drop their children off that day. There were no ATF agents or their children on the casualty list of the Oklahoma City bombing. — Freedom Network News, June/July 1996, pp. 5, 6.



You lie

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1573248&postcount=256

[steve s]

is it your claim that these sworn affidavits are forgeries or that the witnesses are lying?

yes or no.

You really do love false dichotomies, don't you? Did it ever occur to you that they were just mistaken?

Steve S.

[steve s]

Another man who knows a thing or two about bombs is Samuel Cohen, inventor of the Neutron Bomb. Cohen began his career on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, where he was charged with studying the effects of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During his 40 year career, Cohen worked with every application of nuclear weapons design and testing.

Cohen stated his position in a letter to Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key:
It would have been absolutely impossible and against the laws of nature for a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil… no matter how much was used… to bring the building down.


Cohen may know a lot about neutron bombs, but he doesn't seem to know anything about the Murrah Building. First, he says the building was brought down. Only the front was destroyed.

Second, he talks about the laws of nature, but wants us to believe that the upper floors would have defied gravity once the transfer beam was gone.

Every one of the people that you've quoted seems to be completely unaware of how the building was constructed and the importance of the transfer beam. Therefore they are useless as experts.



Steve S

[steve s]

Dr. Roger Raubach doesn't believe the government. Raubach, who did his Ph.D. in physical chemistry and served on the research faculty at Stanford University, says, "General Partin's assessment is absolutely correct. I don't care if they pulled up a semi-trailer truck with 20 tons of ammonium nitrate; it wouldn't do the damage we saw there."



How many times do we have to say it. The bomb wasn't responsible for all the damage to the front of the building. All it had to do was take out the transfer beam and gravity did the rest. The so-called experts you keep quoting seem completely oblivious to this.

Please look at the photo of the Murrah building that Beachnut postd above. The transfer beam is readily apparent. Is it your claim that the upper floors would have stayed in place once that beam was gone?

Steve S.

[Jontg]

At the risk of angering dear Mr. Godwin, I'd like to point out that the "Big Lie" was part of Hitler's own pet CT--he wasn't giving a recommendation to future dictators, he was trying to explain how the Jews ruled the world without anybody ever noticing.
On that note, Roundhead... Yes, Fox and its various affiliates are basically mouthpieces for the lunatic right, but total media control? Please, think about the logistics of your claim. Think about how many people need to be bribed and intimidated--faking 9/11 would be child's play compared to this. Even if you had the resources, it's statistically inevitable that people would squeal, and statistically impossible for that many potential leaks to simply vanish without causing even more problems.

[beachnut]

Another man who knows a thing or two about bombs is Samuel Cohen, inventor of the Neutron Bomb. Cohen began his career on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, where he was charged with studying the effects of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During his 40 year career, Cohen worked with every application of nuclear weapons design and testing.

Cohen stated his position in a letter to Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key:
Quote:

It would have been absolutely impossible and against the laws of nature for a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil… no matter how much was used… to bring the building down.


how do you think you did?
Oops, another non-expert makes up a statement and is wrong.

9ljned4_gQc Small blasts with only a fraction of what McVeigh used.
izWl23QNQ7M Two sources better than Partin and Cohen. Your 2 experts out of thousands, struck out! How can you find the only experts in the world who get OKC wrong? That is amazing how consistent you are at finding people who make major errors on events, events with enough data, facts, and evidence that a kid off the street could make the correct conclusion. You find the only experts who mess up the whole story. That is a unique talent. It may be indicative of your failure to find the correct conclusions; what do you think? The nuke guy has zero understanding of fertilizer bombs, it would help if you stuck with chemical bomb makers, not nuclear. Yet Partin was not very good at this either.

I blew up my back yard when I was 11, I used a fertilizer bomb. Based on my blast experience alone, Partin and Cohen are not very good at fertilizer bombs and missed the mark. It is not unusual for Generals to be wrong on things, they are only human; your nuke expert must of over specialized and not able to grasp that the bomb was not a nuke. But anyone can read, research and understand the bomb used by McVeigh was large enough to do the job of killing children and damaging the building as he did due to bomb size and placement right up next to the building.

No other bombs contributed to the destruction at OKC, only McVeighs truck bomb. Thread title is false, not supported in fact, or evidence. With thorough research, anyone can prove the OP title is false.

[Hellbound]

Not really wanting to get into this argument, but thought I'd correct a few things.

First, the military does use ANFO and related explosives. In fact, because of it's lower expansion speed, ANFO is preferred to C-4 for a cratering charge. C-4 is preferred for breaching.

The reason is simple, if one considers the difference between, say, a high-powered rifle and a shotgun loaded with 00 buck.

C-4 would be less likely to push down a wall or roll off a column. The speed of it's shock wave is too fast. Instead, it will tend to cut and break.

ANFO, on the other hand, is the blunt object to C-4's scalpel. It will push as much as it breaks. This is why it's used for cratering charges. It won't do as well against hardened structures (like, for example, a reinforced concrete bunker) but is perfectly adequate for taking down normally-constructed buildings.

As an aside, it's also the same type of charge used to remove bridge abutments.

SGT Brister
U.S. Army
68W (Medical Specialist), 25B (Computer Analyst), 21B (Combat Engineer-this means part of my job is blowing up things with explosives)

[Foolmewunz]

LMAO .... at myself.

I'm reading the above, and saying.... "Wait, this sounds like someone from 'round these parts. Who's this guy taking material from Huntsman?"


and then I saw the sig.....:spjimlad::spjimlad:

(I get confused when people change avatars! When you change names and avatars, I'm completely lost!)

[doobiedoright]

In a letter dated May 17, 1995, hand-delivered to each member of the Congress and Senate General Benton K. Partin. A retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General said :



Another man who knows a thing or two about bombs is Samuel Cohen, inventor of the Neutron Bomb. Cohen began his career on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, where he was charged with studying the effects of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During his 40 year career, Cohen worked with every application of nuclear weapons design and testing.

Cohen stated his position in a letter to Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key:
[/COLOR]

how do you think you did?

Apparently he and you dont know squat!:jaw-dropp
I have personally delivered Ammonia nitrate to a munitions maker!
That load was under strict rules by the gov.
It was also extremely dangerous as mixing it with diesel and a small spark makes a very big boom!

[doobiedoright]

Partin is perhaps the preiminent expert in the country on exactly this issue, the fact you try and dimish him personally, doesnt change that one bit.

His tests were well founded, and conclusive.


Like most on here, you swallow whatever the govt tells you hook line and sinker.

Since JFK, this country flat hasnt been the same. Independant thinking people, who question the drivel that has consistantly been rolled out (like the outright lies that got us into Iraq)are unfortunately, insufficient in number.

Quit being a parrot, and think for yourself. It will do you a world of good.



Let me guess, you probably believe the civil trial re MLK by Pepper is untrue also, right.

This place seems to be a bastion for official lie slurpage, its quite notable.

A piece of advice, retire from the Gazala line, its undefendable.





No body that deals with explosives would ever not take cover when blowing something up!
The guy clearly is nuts and should be put away!
Think I will try a experiment.Wonder how many pounds of m-80's it takes to bring down a average tree?

[doobiedoright]

Not really wanting to get into this argument, but thought I'd correct a few things.

First, the military does use ANFO and related explosives. In fact, because of it's lower expansion speed, ANFO is preferred to C-4 for a cratering charge. C-4 is preferred for breaching.

The reason is simple, if one considers the difference between, say, a high-powered rifle and a shotgun loaded with 00 buck.

C-4 would be less likely to push down a wall or roll off a column. The speed of it's shock wave is too fast. Instead, it will tend to cut and break.

ANFO, on the other hand, is the blunt object to C-4's scalpel. It will push as much as it breaks. This is why it's used for cratering charges. It won't do as well against hardened structures (like, for example, a reinforced concrete bunker) but is perfectly adequate for taking down normally-constructed buildings.

As an aside, it's also the same type of charge used to remove bridge abutments.

SGT Brister
U.S. Army
68W (Medical Specialist), 25B (Computer Analyst), 21B (Combat Engineer-this means part of my job is blowing up things with explosives)





I'm sure we will see the NWO label and dis-info very soon!

[Björn Toulouse]

....Like most on here, you swallow whatever the govt tells you hook line and sinker.....Quit being a parrot, and think for yourself. It will do you a world of good.....


The second part above is one you should pay attention to.


.....The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had offices in the Murrah Building. On the day the Murrah building was bombed, none of the ATF agents came to work that morning. The ATF agents, who had children in the day-care center, did not drop their children off that day. There were no ATF agents or their children on the casualty list of the Oklahoma City bombing. — Freedom Network News, June/July 1996, pp. 5, 6....


BATF at Murrah (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1573248&postcount=256)


So most of us around here swallow whatever the government tells us, "hook, line, and sinker".

So what do you have to say about yourself and your having swallowed the preceding lie about the ATF agents? As you previously stated, "This should be something fairly easy to research..From the link i posted, it says no ATF agents or they're kids who use the daycare facility."

Have you ever wondered about yourself believing such lies so easily, and they didn't even come from "the gov't". Maybe you should research these things before you "parrot" them.

[peteweaver]

TC, do you know what happens to a building, when a truck parked right outside it, containing a large bomb, severs load bearing columns at the front ?
Do you know how the load which had been supported by those columns will act?

[peteweaver]

A bomb essentially of the same type exploded on the 15th June 1996:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/image_galleries/150606_manchester_bomb_gallery.shtml

Real player footage of the explosion is present on that site.

Windows more than a mile away were broken by the pressure from the bomb.
Because of a coded warning issued by the Provisional IRA there were no civilians killed in that bombing. But the damage to property ran into the millions, and the surrounding area had to be completely redeveloped.

[dudalb]

13 year old Conspiracy crap that has been throughly debunked and proven to be crap more times than I can count. Is that the best you can do, guy?

[Wretched1]

Not really wanting to get into this argument, but thought I'd correct a few things.

First, the military does use ANFO and related explosives. In fact, because of it's lower expansion speed, ANFO is preferred to C-4 for a cratering charge. C-4 is preferred for breaching.

The reason is simple, if one considers the difference between, say, a high-powered rifle and a shotgun loaded with 00 buck.

C-4 would be less likely to push down a wall or roll off a column. The speed of it's shock wave is too fast. Instead, it will tend to cut and break.

ANFO, on the other hand, is the blunt object to C-4's scalpel. It will push as much as it breaks. This is why it's used for cratering charges. It won't do as well against hardened structures (like, for example, a reinforced concrete bunker) but is perfectly adequate for taking down normally-constructed buildings.

As an aside, it's also the same type of charge used to remove bridge abutments.

SGT Brister
U.S. Army
68W (Medical Specialist), 25B (Computer Analyst), 21B (Combat Engineer-this means part of my job is blowing up things with explosives)

Hellbound is correct.

ANFO is also useful for removing stumps according to my Grandfather the Farmer.

All 21Bs are taught about this technique, and can look up simple Safety Distances in FM 5-34. Also, for the better trained FM 5-25 "Explosives and Demolitions".

Any idiot can test Partin claims. The ingredients can be found in your local Hardware Store. I will not tell you how, but with a little effort on the internet, you can figure it out. I can tell you that just using under a 25# bag will wreck your world standing 20 feet away, it may not hurt too many trees, but it will do a number on flesh.

I suck at logic fallacy arguments, calculations, and “googling”(sp), but there are some things I know I will go to my grave knowing as facts:

:)911 was not CD
:)OKC happened physically as it looks
:jaw-droppI will pay taxes even after death, unless I am in an American Combat Zone
:cool:No matter how far you run, no matter how hard you fight, no matter what any movie portrays, we all die

Morbidly,

D. Florence
MAJ, EN, USAR
Support Operations Officer

[Foolmewunz]

All right... enough is enough! Now we've got Majors coming in topping off the sergeants?

Don't you guys know this is the Conspiracy section. How dare you bring actual experience and facts into these discussions. If you intend to continue, we will insist on more bluster, pimply hyperbole, and rumors, if you please!

Besides, neither of you posted anything on YouTube, so it can't be true.