The stranger in your clothes.

[quarky]

I find it puzzling that we have almost no innate sense of our body's internal workings. We don't feel our organs; we don't command our inner workings.

We mostly have some sense of 'self', but it is so removed from our actual bodily mass. We barely know our body. "Self" is more akin to memory, and its chronology is important. Alzheimer's patients suffer a loss of self from merely losing the sequence of memories.

Why is the body more sophisticated than our comprehension?
Shouldn't we have an internal owner's manual, of sorts?

If we are the body, why do we not know us better?

[DrDisco]

What evolutionary advantage would it give us? What is the cost to benefit ratio? For example, what benefit would there be to feel digestion working? Or to control it? What sort of cost --in energy and resources-- would there be for feeling such a process? With a finite amount of energy to expend, what might "suffer" as payment for being able to physically sense all these bodily processes?

In my opinion, we feel what we need to feel to survive. We do occationally feel digestion; usually when it goes wrong. There's an advantage to that. But just feeling it for feeling's sake seems a bit wasteful.

And, as far as "knowing us better", I think we do a fine job of that with the tools our evolutionary path has already provided us. Our brains have evolved in such a way that we can ask such questions and seek out the answer. I say, of all the animals on the planet, we know our bodies the best. We DO have an owner's manual: Our brain.

[plumjam]

It's like if you get in a car, you don't have to know how the engine, the lights, the brakes etc.. work, in order to be able to drive it.

[Wowbagger]

The short answer is that different parts of our body, and our brain, evolved in a rather "kludgy" manner.

Our conscious awareness never evolved to coordinate all those functions in our body. And, it does not need to. They seem to function well enough, for our survival, all by themselves.

An intelligent designer probably would have given us a coherent Owner's Manual. But, nature is certainly not obligated to.

[Dancing David]

Um, really, so you can't coordinate your limbs , tell when you heart is racing or when you have cramps?

Interesting Captain. :Spock eyebrow lift:

[Roboramma]

One reason that I can see is that digestion is pretty predictable. The food comes in from the mouth, tends to be food that is of a certain type (we've got conscious processes that do deal with solving that problem).
Intelligence, consciousness - these things seem to be ways that we adapt to new situations, or create new solutions. If there were a culture in which people altered the way that the muscles in their stomaches reacted to different stimuli, how much could we learn, and how much more efficient could it make the process?

Some problems are easy, and should be instinctive.

The other issue is that we've only got so much brain, so many neurons. So, if in a protohuman, some neurons could be devoted to processing language or processing the data sent by the nerves in the stomach and making decisions about that information, which one is more likely to keep him alive, help him find a mate, help him raise his children, or help his siblings or children to do any of those things?
I go for language.

We do, of course, have a peripheral nervous system that impacts the digestive system, and parts of our brain interact with that to some extent. They do so as much as is necessary for the relatively simple task which requires little innovation. And they do so with as many resources as that costs do not overwhelm the benefits, as Dr Disco pointed out.

[Loss Leader]

I find it puzzling that we have almost no innate sense of our body's internal workings. We don't feel our organs; we don't command our inner workings.


I remember when I had stents put in and the doctors were describing what was going to happen as they snaked this tube up my veins and into my heart. I asked how they could do that with me awake and the doctor was like, "Um, you don't have nerve endings in your heart."

And after a few seconds I realized that made sense. Because if you could feel the inside of your heart, you'd just spend all day going, "I ... can ... feel ... my ... blood."

Some information, we just don't need.

[phantomb]

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, I think it's obvious that we would benefit from at least a little more awareness/control now that we have evolved brains capable of understanding the workings of the body better than the body itself. Sensations like pain or fear, for example, no longer serve their intended purpose when you have broken your leg but know that you have to keep moving to avoid a deadly situation. Imagine how much more effective the immune system would be if a doctor who has identified an illness was able to have the patient "tell" his body which defense mechanisms to use and which to avoid.

[Delvo]

We descend from critters with a lot less intellect than us, which descend from organisms (I don't think I can call them "critters") with no brain or even nervous system at all, which have relatives still alive today with no nervous system or brain or very little of any such thing.

Obviously, if our brains are where we keep our knowledge, then those other organisms have been living all this time without such knowledge. And ours went from zero in the past to everything we've got now, so all of it was added at some point to a lineage (ours) that hadn't had it before.

So the question really is: why, now or at any other particular point in the past, would a lineage that had never had this kind of knowledge before need to have it added?

[Macoy]

It's like if you get in a car, you don't have to know how the engine, the lights, the brakes etc.. work, in order to be able to drive it.

It's like you've not got a brain, so you don't have to think.

[Roboramma]

Sensations like pain or fear, for example, no longer serve their intended purpose when you have broken your leg but know that you have to keep moving to avoid a deadly situation.
On the other hand when you don't "have to keep moving to avoid a deadly situation" the pain is still very useful. Which is why we can get into a state during high stress situations when we can easily ignore pain - the body's way to what you suggest possible without getting rid of the benefit of pain.

On the other hand if the pain wasn't there at all, it would be very easy to do more damage to the leg. Recently I had a case of cauliflower ear, and at first I was very careful not to touch it because it hurt when I did. As it healed the pain grew less and I had a hard time stopping myself from doing so. Pain can serve a similar purpose to a caste, reason can't quite fulfill that function.

[Roboramma]

We descend from critters with a lot less intellect than us, which descend from organisms (I don't think I can call them "critters") with no brain or even nervous system at all, which have relatives still alive today with no nervous system or brain or very little of any such thing.

Obviously, if our brains are where we keep our knowledge, then those other organisms have been living all this time without such knowledge. And ours went from zero in the past to everything we've got now, so all of it was added at some point to a lineage (ours) that hadn't had it before.

So the question really is: why, now or at any other particular point in the past, would a lineage that had never had this kind of knowledge before need to have it added?
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Could you clarify?

Regarding the last sentence, however, I suggest that it would read better as "be benefited by" rather than "need to".

[quarky]

This is just some philosophical pondering. I'm not going anywhere in particular with it.

When you reflect on the idea of 'self', its not particularly the body that comes to mind.
Its something more ephemeral...artificial, even.

I'm not sure that I could pick a picture of my hand or foot or ass out of a line up of photos of 10 other people of my age, sex and race.
I can't exactly claim this body as me; as myself.

Its more like a rental car that i mostly know how to drive.
Yet, it has its own, separate intelligence. Maybe even its own sense of self.

[calebprime]

This is just some philosophical pondering. I'm not going anywhere in particular with it.

When you reflect on the idea of 'self', its not particularly the body that comes to mind.
Its something more ephemeral...artificial, even.

I'm not sure that I could pick a picture of my hand or foot or ass out of a line up of photos of 10 other people of my age, sex and race.
I can't exactly claim this body as me; as myself.

Its more like a rental car that i mostly know how to drive.
Yet, it has its own, separate intelligence. Maybe even its own sense of self.


that's interesting, I don't feel that way...I'm both aware of my body at almost all times, and I identify with it: it doesn't feel like a rental, it feels like "me".

now, there's a gap (called delusion, vanity) between my slightly optimistic sense of self and the real thing, staring back at me from the mirror....

[Modified]

On the other hand if the pain wasn't there at all, it would be very easy to do more damage to the leg. Recently I had a case of cauliflower ear, and at first I was very careful not to touch it because it hurt when I did. As it healed the pain grew less and I had a hard time stopping myself from doing so. Pain can serve a similar purpose to a caste, reason can't quite fulfill that function.

Still, excruciating agony is probably unnecessary, at least for adults.

[paximperium]

As already mentioned, the brain is a kludge together construct "built" up through evolution.

The most primitive portions of the brain, the brain stem involves the subconscious control with some conscious feedback of your body functions. This is present in the most basic of animals with a spinal cord. This allows these animals to live and function.

As you move "higher" up the brain, more complex functions appear such as fear and emotions. These portions of the brains are present in more advance animals. This allows these animals to survive.

The part where do the actual thinking overlies the primitive components in the cerebrum where we big dumb apes do the thinking. There is little advantage for us to be able to "feel" every body function except distract us from the lion creeping up behind us.

[Roboramma]

Still, excruciating agony is probably unnecessary, at least for adults.

Agreed - the problem is that evolution doesn't care to limit it when it's unnecessary, only when it's counterproductive.

Pain medication is a good thing, exactly because pain isn't always useful. Going to the trouble of differentiating between useful pain and not-useful but not-detrimental pain isn't worth it from the viewpoint of natural selection, but it certainly is from the viewpoint of people in pain and those that care about them.

[paximperium]

Agreed - the problem is that evolution doesn't care to limit it when it's unnecessary, only when it's counterproductive.

Pain medication is a good thing, exactly because pain isn't always useful. Going to the trouble of differentiating between useful pain and not-useful but not-detrimental pain isn't worth it from the viewpoint of natural selection, but it certainly is from the viewpoint of people in pain and those that care about them.

Well acute pain will lead to an upramping of the sympathetic system of the brain (Fight or Flight) so this prepares you for a battle for survival.

However, chronic pain has the opposite affect, it leads to significant stress response in your system and will lead to depression, illness and a host of other problems.

[Mark6]

On the other hand when you don't "have to keep moving to avoid a deadly situation" the pain is still very useful. Which is why we can get into a state during high stress situations when we can easily ignore pain - the body's way to what you suggest possible without getting rid of the benefit of pain.

On the other hand if the pain wasn't there at all, it would be very easy to do more damage to the leg. Recently I had a case of cauliflower ear, and at first I was very careful not to touch it because it hurt when I did. As it healed the pain grew less and I had a hard time stopping myself from doing so. Pain can serve a similar purpose to a caste, reason can't quite fulfill that function.

Also, when you ARE in a deadly situation, adrenaline tends to deaden the pain. Many wounded soldiers would tell you they felt nothing until the firefight was over.

[ImaginalDisc]

I remember when I had stents put in and the doctors were describing what was going to happen as they snaked this tube up my veins and into my heart. I asked how they could do that with me awake and the doctor was like, "Um, you don't have nerve endings in your heart."

And after a few seconds I realized that made sense. Because if you could feel the inside of your heart, you'd just spend all day going, "I ... can ... feel ... my ... blood."

Some information, we just don't need.

Actually, on the theme of "You can tell when something's wrong" I donate platelets frequently and every time they put that room temperature saline solution in me, I can feel the coolness spreading up through my arm, and even have an unusual sensation in my heart. Also, my neurology textbook has a bunch of charts showing how many exterior regions of the body are often associated with internal organs - like a bladder infection can make your thighs, butt, and stomach hurt, even though that's not where you bladder is located.

[paximperium]

Actually, on the theme of "You can tell when something's wrong" I donate platelets frequently and every time they put that room temperature saline solution in me, I can feel the coolness spreading up through my arm, and even have an unusual sensation in my heart. Also, my neurology textbook has a bunch of charts showing how many exterior regions of the body are often associated with internal organs - like a bladder infection can make your thighs, butt, and stomach hurt, even though that's not where you bladder is located.

Not really. You are actually referring to two different things.

Temperature sense is partial conscious and partial subconscious. An IV is room temperature (anywhere from 70-80F) while your body temperature is 98F. It is cold. The sudden cool saline is detected as cold and many of your subconscious function activate leading to increase heart rate, shivering etc. which you sense as a coolness.

The other thing is Referred Pain and is due to a variety of different factors. Somatic pain is localized, sharp and distinct. This is often things like broken bones or skin cuts. Visceral pain is indistinct and poorly localized such as bowel distension or "heart pain". This pain can be very severe(anyone with bad stomache can attest to that).The classic heart attack is felt in the chest as an indistinct tightness but radiates to the L shoulder or arm because the nerves that would sense that pain in the heart is more often linked to the L shoulder/arm-ie the brain confuses where the pain is coming from.

A good example is appendicits where the pain starts as a visceral pain which is crampy and around the belly button although the appendix is localized in the Right Lower abdomen. As the appendix swells and gets inflamed, the pain becomes a somatic pain and localizes to a sharp pain in the Right lower abdomen. Then the pain suddenly improves as it ruptures because all the pressure is suddenly released...then you get very sick and infected and feel a whole lot worse.

[ImaginalDisc]

Not really. You are actually referring to two different things.


I didn't mean to suggest they were the same thing. Thanks for clarifying about referred pain more than I could.

[phantomb]

On the other hand when you don't "have to keep moving to avoid a deadly situation" the pain is still very useful. Which is why we can get into a state during high stress situations when we can easily ignore pain - the body's way to what you suggest possible without getting rid of the benefit of pain.

On the other hand if the pain wasn't there at all, it would be very easy to do more damage to the leg. Recently I had a case of cauliflower ear, and at first I was very careful not to touch it because it hurt when I did. As it healed the pain grew less and I had a hard time stopping myself from doing so. Pain can serve a similar purpose to a caste, reason can't quite fulfill that function.

Of course, I agree that there are many situations in which you do want the body to act on its own. When you accidentally touch a stove you certainly want to be made aware of it immediately, and react to it automatically!

I didn't mean to generalize, I just wanted to show a single example of a situation where it would be advantageous to be able to "turn off" pain, or to experience pain not as a sensation that makes certain actions more difficult than others, but as a purely informative one. The adult brain, in many cases, doesn't need the sensation of excruciating pain to keep it from making fatal decisions.

[Silentknight]

I find it puzzling that we have almost no innate sense of our body's internal workings. We don't feel our organs; we don't command our inner workings.

We mostly have some sense of 'self', but it is so removed from our actual bodily mass. We barely know our body. "Self" is more akin to memory, and its chronology is important. Alzheimer's patients suffer a loss of self from merely losing the sequence of memories.

Why is the body more sophisticated than our comprehension?
Shouldn't we have an internal owner's manual, of sorts?

If we are the body, why do we not know us better?

I'd answer your question, but I can't type right now because I'm too busy willing my heart to beat. You know how it is. "Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze!"

Of course, the trick is to make sure you're not thinking of the wrong body part when you do this.

[Furi]

I find it puzzling that we have almost no innate sense of our body's internal workings. We don't feel our organs; we don't command our inner workings.

I would nearly die every time I slept, suffered a migraine, Got drunk or Reached orgasm, or felt the urge to find out what happens if.

I like the fatherly dictatorship that I operate my body with, I tell it where to go and how to gwet there, than it get's me there. every now and then it therows a hissh fit or demands food or such like, but I'll throw it a piece offering everyday to stop the system from failing

[Soapy Sam]

Anyone with cancer or toothache might disagree that we do not sense our internal organs. So long as they are working, we don't need to sense them. When we sense them, there's a problem.
Consciousness is a very recent development. We may learn something by considering what use it is to the body, but wondering what use the body is to the mind is looking at things backwards.

[Beerina]

I can do without crap like excruciating pain, sorrow, worry, and stress.

For that invention alone, Yahweh deserves execution.

[Beerina]

Well, not so much inventing it as forcing it down everyone's throat, either deliberately or with knowing recklessness.