Why Deny?

[RobRoy]

Normally, I stay out of most of the conspiracy stuff, and the Holocaust denial series. I'm not that much of a historian, and what history I'm interested in didn't take place in the recent past. But from time to time I do read the threads of deniers to see if they're is something truly new or profound, and then follow a few of the follow-ups and see how easily such denials are dismantled.

But the question did occur to me today: why deny? Specifically, why deny the Holocaust?

I can understand posing the question, asking for confirmation on details, looking for nuanced information about specific events. But I don't grasp what the agenda is for those who attempt, and work very, very hard, to deny that the repugnant series of events we now call the Holocaust occured.

Can someone help me out here?

[Loss Leader]

Can someone help me out here?


1. Jews used the Holocaust to make non-Jews feel guilty in order to get breaks they didn't deserve.
2. It worked. Now, Jews control the world for their own pleasure and to the detriment of non-Jews.
3. We must take the world back from them.
4. If the Holocaust never happened (or wasn't as bad as the Jews claimed), Jews can't rely on the Holocaust to generate guilt.
5. And if the Jews knew that the Holocaust never happened, that proves they used the Holocaust against non-Jews with malicious intent.
6. See? I told you Jews were bad.

[JoeEllison]

I've never really understood it either. I think you have to start as a racist piece of garbage, and then you get involved in Holocaust denial to help rationalize your stupidity and hatred. Otherwise, you couldn't be convinced by the weak case that the deniers make against the nonexistent Jewish worldwide conspiracy.

[drkitten]

But the question did occur to me today: why deny? Specifically, why deny the Holocaust?


Nizkor.com put it best.

The cynical truth comes to us by way of an obscure extremist group, which boasts:
"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again. (http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/orgs/american/national-socialist-white-peoples-party/nswpp-on-revisionism-01.html)"

Check the third paragraph of the linked-to document for full context. The actual source is "the National Socialist White Peoples Party, formerly the American Nazi Party."

[drkitten]

Ooooh, another great quote from the same source (this one from this page (http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/orgs/american/national-socialist-white-peoples-party/nswpp-on-revisionism-02.html)):

Take away the Holocaust and both the National Socialists and the Jews become very different people, almost reversing roles. The whole foundation of the Hitler-As-Evil-Incarnate portrait which is now Holy Writ is based on two false concepts: the Holocaust and the standard Establishment historical mantra of Hitler-Started-World-War-Two-By-Invading-Poland. Knock away the mythical six million murdered sheenies and the Hitler-Started-The-War business is a weak reed indeed for the Hitler-haters to lean on; it is nowhere near as highly charged emotionally and much more susceptible to historical analysis and debunking, based as it is on real and documentable historical events and not what amounts to the theological mysteries of a new religion, which is what the Holocaust has become to its adherents. Part of the aberrant psychology displayed by Nizkor people in their controlled newsgroups can be explained by what amounts to religious fervor; people who question their dogmas are treated as less than human, heretics to be burned and destroyed lest they contaminate the pure faith.

Take away the Holocaust and one is stunned with admiration for the brilliance of Adolf Hitler, the vision and accomplishments of the Third Reich, and the incredible military heroism of the German people. The whole National Socialist period becomes a breathtaking and wonderful national epic for the German people. (Which, of course, it always was.) Take away the Holocaust and the Jews are seen for what they are, a sneaky and snakey little reptilian people, liars and land-thieves and sneak-killers who persuaded big dumb goyim to fight and kill and die for them and then robbed the pennies from the eyes of their dead victims, a race of con artists who have perpetrated the biggest fraud in history. Commander Rockwell once said, "If the peoples of the world ever come to understand what the Jews have done, how they have lied to us all since the end of the war, there will be Jews swinging from every lamp post." He was not wrong. I am utterly convinced that the Jews have a long-overdue settling-up of accounts coming, and it may come sooner than any of us think.

[Giggywig]

You know, I've always wondered the question in the OP too. And I've also wondered another question, if a denier accepted, just for a second, the premise that the Holocaust did happen, what would be his thoughts? Well from the quotes drkitten posted it's pretty clear the answer to that would be "they'd be happy." It's pretty clear they want it to happen again. And probably deny that one, too.

[Miss_Kitt]

OY!

[uk_dave]

OY!
VaY!

[SDC]

'z mir.

[Bikewer]

I've heard sentiments expressed which might be described as: "I don't want to believe human beings could be that terrible." or more specifically, that German people could not be that horrible.

[Chaos]

Ooooh, another great quote from the same source (this one from this page (http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/orgs/american/national-socialist-white-peoples-party/nswpp-on-revisionism-02.html)):

Oh. Oh my.

All right, let anyone read this filth and then DARE tell us that Holocaust Denial isn´t dangerous.

[MaGZ]

Nizkor.com put it best.



Check the third paragraph of the linked-to document for full context. The actual source is "the National Socialist White Peoples Party, formerly the American Nazi Party."

Harold Covington did not start the NSWPP. George Lincoln Rockwell renamed the party in 1967 shortly before his assassination. Covington had no right to use the party’s name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Covington

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_White_People%27s_Party_%281967-1983%29

[SDC]

Response to Bikewer: at an abandoned 17th or 18th century fort in the North American wilderness, someone carved: "NOUS SOMMES TOUS SAUVAGES." We are all savages. ("Son of the Morning Star," Evan Connell.)

Christopher Browning titled his excellent study of the mass shootings of Jews by German reserves in Poland: "Ordinary Men." That's the point. "Ordinary."

[JoeEllison]

Harold Covington did not start the NSWPP. George Lincoln Rockwell renamed the party in 1967 shortly before his assassination. Covington had no right to use the party’s name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Covington

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_White_People%27s_Party_%281967-1983%29
Yes, it is important that we make sure to identify the difference racists correctly? They were both subhuman scum.

[Chaos]

Yes, it is important that we make sure to identify the difference racists correctly? They were both subhuman scum.

No. The problem is, they were human scum.

[senorpogo]

Another explanation that applies to all conspiracy theories, but works exceptionally well for deniers - the thrill of possessing secret knowledge. "Everyone else is duped, yet I saw through the smokescreen and arrived at the truth."

I think a little anti-intellectualism fits in their nicely too. "All these people with their fancy educations and diplomas, yet they don't know history like I do."

[fuelair]

Harold Covington did not start the NSWPP. George Lincoln Rockwell renamed the party in 1967 shortly before his assassination. Covington had no right to use the party’s name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Covington

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_White_People%27s_Party_%281967-1983%29So what? They are/were:) slime sucking Nazi scum. And please don't chastize me for giving scum a bad name here - have to follow the profanity rule or you would know how I really feel about Nazi murderers born from their fathers well used rectums.

[fuelair]

Apologies to Joe and Chaos who beat me to it Great minds, etc.

[Soapy Sam]

It's the BIG LIE.

It works.

When someone says loudly that anything that well known MUST be a fake, people believe them, because obviously, nobody would say something so bizarre were it NOT true.

And we all know governments lie all the time.
And let's face it, Israelis are not the most popular of people in many places, any more than Jews have been for 2000 years, since they nailed wossname to a lamppost.

Wait a minute- wasn't that the Italians?

I never have trusted those pizza munchers...

[moon1969]

Well for one reason. Deniers see that the sympathy that the jewish people got from the holocaust was one of the main reasons why the State of Israel was created. State of Israel was created for a sanctuary for all jews all around the world. Know imagine if they could proove that holocaust was fake? And maybe some deniers just want a chance to repeat the horrible things that nazis did to the jews?

[Horatius]

Commander Rockwell once said, "If the peoples of the world ever come to understand what the Jews have done, how they have lied to us all since the end of the war, there will be Jews swinging from every lamp post." He was not wrong. I am utterly convinced that the Jews have a long-overdue settling-up of accounts coming, and it may come sooner than any of us think.

Well from the quotes drkitten posted it's pretty clear the answer to that would be "they'd be happy." It's pretty clear they want it to happen again. And probably deny that one, too.



Exactly right. That quote from Rockwell, and Nazi boy's analysis of it, says it all. I forget who is was in the CT section who said, they deny the Holocaust, because they're hoping to get another shot at it.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

But the question did occur to me today: why deny? Specifically, why deny the Holocaust?

Because they have a romantic association with Nazism and the Holocaust and WWII prevents that romantic association from becoming a legitimate political movement again. They need to remove the Holocaust from the equation because people can look at such a repressive regime and their murderous death toll and easily come to this conclusion; "could be me".

[ddt]

It's the BIG LIE.
... a propaganda technique first identified by their "great" Leader:
The Big Lie is a propaganda technique. It was defined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf as a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".

(from wiki).

[aggle-rithm]

Well for one reason. Deniers see that the sympathy that the jewish people got from the holocaust was one of the main reasons why the State of Israel was created. State of Israel was created for a sanctuary for all jews all around the world. Know imagine if they could proove that holocaust was fake? And maybe some deniers just want a chance to repeat the horrible things that nazis did to the jews?

One of the reasons the Holocaust survivors needed sanctuary is that they were ostracized by their fellow Jews. Why? Many Jews around the world had lost family members to the Holocaust, and wondered what these survivors did to escape death. It was widely believed that the best people didn't survive the Holocaust, only the ones willing to lie, cheat, steal, and fornicate to save their own lives.

I wonder why they would get that impression, if the Holocaust never happened?

[MaGZ]

... a propaganda technique first identified by their "great" Leader:

(from wiki).
In Mein Kampf Hitler was not an advocate of the Big Lie. Instead, he condemned the Jews for using it.

[SDC]

This is one of those moments... I think we can be pretty sure that Magz has read Mein kampf. Heck, he's probably got it memorized. I wonder whether he read the recently published second volume as well. (Seriously, not a joke.)

Pfeh. Magz's copy probably has a lot of pages sticking together. Wash your hands if you pick it up.

[ddt]

This is one of those moments... I think we can be pretty sure that Magz has read Mein kampf.

Not needed. It's in the wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie) as well:
It is often erroneously claimed or implied Hitler had advocated the use of the Big Lie as a viable propaganda technique. However, Hitler, when writing of the Big Lie in Mein Kampf, was in fact criticizing "the Jews" for their perceived use of the Big Lie.

So I think you give MaZG much too much credit for actually knowing things.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

In Mein Kampf Hitler was not an advocate of the Big Lie. Instead, he condemned the Jews for using it.

And the Jews to death...seriously...in the book he complained that Germany didn't gas influential Jews during WWI.

[drkitten]

In Mein Kampf Hitler was not an advocate of the Big Lie. Instead, he condemned the Jews for using it.

I'd just like to point out the (rather typical) non-responsiveness of this statement.

Does MaGZ try to refute the idea that the "inventor" of the concept of the Big Lie was Hitler? No. Does he try to refute that the Big Lie was one of the central features of Goebbel's propaganda ministry? No. Does he even try to refute the idea that he and his fellow Holocaust deniers are deliberately using the Big Lie in an effort " to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again"? Not in the slightest.

But he points out that a decade before the Holocaust, Hitler condemned someone else for using a powerful propaganda technique.

Naturally, he's hoping that we will get all worked up over this minor issue and ignore the more fundamental issue that, as a Holocaust denier, he is actively participating in a conspiracy to commit mass murder against the Jews.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I'd just like to point out the (rather typical) non-responsiveness of this statement.

Does MaGZ try to refute the idea that the "inventor" of the concept of the Big Lie was Hitler? No. Does he try to refute that the Big Lie was one of the central features of Goebbel's propaganda ministry? No. Does he even try to refute the idea that he and his fellow Holocaust deniers are deliberately using the Big Lie in an effort " to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again"? Not in the slightest.

But he points out that a decade before the Holocaust, Hitler condemned someone else for using a powerful propaganda technique.

Naturally, he's hoping that we will get all worked up over this minor issue and ignore the more fundamental issue that, as a Holocaust denier, he is actively participating in a conspiracy to commit mass murder against the Jews.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f258/Panzerschreck_DH/IBTL-Door.jpg

I don't think MaGZ intends to refute anything; from hencepoint where I shall go this sign shall follow.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f258/Panzerschreck_DH/feed_trolls.gif

[RobRoy]

Since MaGZ is here, I'd love to hear why he's a denier. What he'd like to see happen as a result of his efforts, and so forth.

[SDC]

Since MaGZ is here, I'd love to hear why he's a denier. What he'd like to see happen as a result of his efforts, and so forth.

Good luck.

[Father Dagon]

I've heard sentiments expressed which might be described as: "I don't want to believe human beings could be that terrible." or more specifically, that German people could not be that horrible.Paul Berman adresses that fallacy in Terror and liberalism. The conclusion is that sometimes it's wise to be surprised and not look for rational explanations where none is to be found.

In Mein Kampf Hitler was not an advocate of the Big Lie. Instead, he condemned the Jews for using it.Too bad that Dr Goebbels didn't read that part of Mein Kampf.

Or he simply didn't care.

[SDC]

Good luck.

Sorry for that.

Individuals who express the views Magz does, pure and simple, regard Jews as evil. Some may have religious reasons (Jews killed Jesus), or political ones (Israel is all bad). But it fundamentally comes down to regarding Jews as evil.

It is overwhelmingly irrational. Sure, individual Jews do bad things; Israel is as capable as any other state of doing bad things; but individuals like Magz go well beyond anything of the kind.

I guess I meant to say, good luck at getting a rational answer. Read Magz, read Sunni man, as the best examples 'round here.

Then go try to wash the muck of their views off.

[RobRoy]

Sorry for that.

No, not at all. I understand your ire.

I guess I meant to say, good luck at getting a rational answer. Read Magz, read Sunni man, as the best examples 'round here.

Then go try to wash the muck of their views off.

I have read both individuals in the past.

[SDC]

Maybe one or both will come to call. Magz seems to have me on ignore, but he gets all perky when he has the chance to expound.

[drkitten]

Maybe one or both will come to call. Magz seems to have me on ignore, but he gets all perky when he has the chance to expound.

Oh, he's here already (MaGZ), but he's deliberately not answering, as he knows that anything he types will be refuted almost immediately.

[RobRoy]

Oh, he's here already (MaGZ), but he's deliberately not answering, as he knows that anything he types will be refuted almost immediately.

So I probably won't get an answer to my questions from an actual denier. Too bad.

[chillzero]

I'm moving this to the correct subforum to discuss conspiracies.

Please do not degenerate the thread into personal issues. Asking a specific member to expand on their opinion is fine. Attacking them because of that opinion is not. Let's keep it civil, and on topic.

[chillzero]

Oh, he's here already (MaGZ), but he's deliberately not answering, as he knows that anything he types will be refuted almost immediately.

Facts may be refuted, but there's no way to refute a person's personal opinion. Additionally, it can be educational to learn why a person comes to a specific viewpoint, which I think was the intention of this thread.

[RobRoy]

Facts may be refuted, but there's no way to refute a person's personal opinion. Additionally, it can be educational to learn why a person comes to a specific viewpoint, which I think was the intention of this thread.

Exactly. I'm very interested in their outlook on this particular question, and would welcome any deniers response. This is not intended as a trap or a way to enter into discussion regarding proofs and opinions. As I said in the OP, I generally steer clear of that kind of debate.

The overall concept of why someone is a denier is what intrigues me.

[PhantomWolf]

It would seem that they deny the Holocaust so they can have another one.

[RobRoy]

So two days and no MaGZ or any other deniers offering their insights.

How unfortunate.

[dudalb]

It would seem that they deny the Holocaust so they can have another one.


Actually one of the major foudners of the Denial movement admitted that denying the Holocaust was the first step in the "political rehablitation" of Nazi Germany.
You have a small percentage of fools who will believe anything, a small percentage of people who will embrace any "unconventional" "daring" and "anti Establishement " theory to prove how edgy they are, and a few sadly misguided Libertarians who support Holocaust denial because of their belief the US never should have been involved in World War 2, but other then these 3 small groups, the Denial movement is filled with Anti Semetic/Neo Nazis of the worst kind.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Ooooh, another great quote from the same source (this one from this page (http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/orgs/american/national-socialist-white-peoples-party/nswpp-on-revisionism-02.html)):


Dear God... I've always steered clear of Holocaust Deniers. 9/11 Nuts, to me, are almost comical. Holocaust Deniers, though, are just downright disgusting human beings. I already have a below average opinion of humanity in general, but they truly anger me.

[drkitten]

So two days and no MaGZ or any other deniers offering their insights.

What insights did you expect? The entire movement is filled from top to bottom with people who would swear black is white if they thought they could somehow exonerate Hitler or denigrate da Joos.

There's no factual basis for their belief that will stand up to a few minutes of Google-fu in the hands of a bright ten year old. And most of them know it.

Do you expect our resident deniers to come out and say that they're anti-Semitic trash hoping to finish the genocide that they deny happened in the first place? And if they say something else, why on earth would you believe anything coming out of their keyboard....

Really, this is like asking a convicted murderer on his way to a parole hearing about his personal relationship with Jesus. No matter what the truth is, only an idiot would tell you anything other than what he thought would make him look good.

[RobRoy]

Do you expect our resident deniers to come out and say that they're anti-Semitic trash hoping to finish the genocide that they deny happened in the first place?

No. And that wasn't part of my OP.

You seem upset with my asking this. Is there some problem with my question in your eyes?

[Aromantic Ghost]

Quite simply it is easier to deny the truth of a horror than to stand up and be held accountable.

[RobRoy]

Quite simply it is easier to deny the truth of a horror than to stand up and be held accountable.

Are most deniers then somehow linked to what they're denying?

[drkitten]

You seem upset with my asking this. Is there some problem with my question in your eyes?

Yes. It's a pointless waste of time to ask a question to which you already know the answer you will receive.

[RobRoy]

Yes. It's a pointless waste of time to ask a question to which you already know the answer you will receive.

I have no idea what answer I would get. Since no deniers have responded, I still don't know. But I do apologize for any frustration my curiosity has caused you.