Child bride beaten in Yemen

[Chimera]

Child bride gets divorced after rape, beatings

SANAA, Yemen (CNN) -- Nujood Ali is 10 years old, but she already has been married and divorced. It was an arranged marriage in which she said a husband three times her age routinely beat and raped her.

Read the rest (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/15/yemen.childbride/index.html)

The 10-year old was granted a divorce, but the abusive husband was compensated, not prosecuted. "Based on based on the principles of Islamic Sharia law."

Muslims try to say that Islam is a religion of peace and completely compatible with a modern democratic society. WTF is up with this madness? Please tell me what I'm missing here.

[fuelair]

As practiced, Sharia is compatible with nothing but the foulest primitivism.

[ravdin]

Muslims try to say that Islam is a religion of peace and completely compatible with a modern democratic society. WTF is up with this madness? Please tell me what I'm missing here.

I think what you're missing is that there are about a billion Muslims in the world. Islam is practiced in many different ways. Some flavors of Islam are compatible with Western democratic values, and some are not.

[Nogbad]

I think what you're missing is that there are about a billion Muslims in the world. Islam is practiced in many different ways. Some flavors of Islam are compatible with Western democratic values, and some are not.



There was a fascinating documentary on C4 (I think) the other night. It ably demonstrated that there were umpteen versions of Islam from the liberal to the psychotic. Sharia courts can be places of extreme justice as in Iran and Saudi Arabia to walk in local citizen's advice bureaus in less strident Muslim countries. It was a programme of contrasts with some Islamic theologians deploring many of the excesses and some advocating that the UK should try female circumcision if we wanted to stop adultery (he was a bit of a twunt actually)

[Chimera]

I think what you're missing is that there are about a billion Muslims in the world. Islam is practiced in many different ways. Some flavors of Islam are compatible with Western democratic values, and some are not.

Interesting, thanks. I didn't realize Islam came in so many flavors.

There was a fascinating documentary on C4 (I think) the other night. It ably demonstrated that there were umpteen versions of Islam from the liberal to the psychotic.

I'd like to watch that. So, when someone says that Islam is misunderstood, what they really mean is that some less offensive versions of Islam are misunderstood because of the other horrible varieties of Islam.

I play online scrabble with a Muslim lady on a network site, and she was somewhat offended when I added a "Fans of Ayaan Hirsi Ali" button to my site. She thinks Ali blames Islam for her "problems" (genital mutilation at age 5, rote memorization of the Qu'ran in place of a public education, and a young adulthood of fear and brutalization). My scrabble friend grew up in the US with a Muslim upbringing which she says was very positive.

Is Islam itself to be blamed for the difference, or cultural differences, do you think?

[Nogbad]

This was the programme. Presumably it can be obtained in the interwebs somewhere so if you know what you are looking for it is a head start

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/quran2.html

[Sunni Man]

Is Islam itself to be blamed for the difference, or cultural differences, do you think?
Many times what are cultural or traditional norms in a mainly Muslim country are attributed to Islam.

Female circumcism is a case in point. It is a tribal custom mainly found in Africia and predates Islam by thousands of years. It is practiced by Christian, Pagan, and Muslim African tribes.

To be clear, female curcumcision in NOT Islamic and is Not found in the Quran or any other Islamic texts. And is forbidden by the religion.

But Islamaphobes and other anti Muslim sources have made it seem like it is a standard Muslim practice.

[Sunni Man]

I play online scrabble with a Muslim lady on a network site, and she was somewhat offended when I added a "Fans of Ayaan Hirsi Ali" button to my site.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali was kicked out of Denmark when it was found out that she had made up lies about her past in order to enter the country and seek assylum.

[Nogbad]

Many times what are cultural or traditional norms in a mainly Muslim country are attributed to Islam.

Female circumcism is a case in point. It is a tribal custom mainly found in Africia and predates Islam by thousands of years. It is practiced by Christian, Pagan, and Muslim African tribes.

To be clear, female curcumcision in NOT Islamic and is Not found in the Quran or any other Islamic texts. And is forbidden by the religion.

But Islamaphobes and other anti Muslim sources have made it seem like it is a standard Muslim practice.

A fair point and an Islamic scholar on the programme said emphatically that it is not allowed. The cleric in the turban begged to differ but then he was also big on execution of homosexuals and other lunatic ideas - I suspect he was just not a very nice person.

[Chimera]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was kicked out of Denmark when it was found out that she had made up lies about her past in order to enter the country and seek assylum.


Yes, she talked about this in her book "Infidel". She says she did it because so many women with her story are not given asylum and have to go back to their homes. If I were in her situation, I probably would have lied to get out of it too.

[Chimera]

To be clear, female curcumcision in NOT Islamic and is Not found in the Quran or any other Islamic texts. And is forbidden by the religion.



It certainly does not seem to be formally "forbidden". Is there a source supporting this statement? It is definitely the subject of much controversy.

[Chimera]

This was the programme. Presumably it can be obtained in the interwebs somewhere so if you know what you are looking for it is a head start

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/quran2.html

Thanks. I'm reading through the site now.

[Sunni Man]

It certainly does not seem to be formally "forbidden". Is there a source supporting this statement? It is definitely the subject of much controversy.There is Not one single verse in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the Prophet to support the practice.

It is a primitive custom in use long before Islam. Mainly done in Somalia, Sudan, and parts of Egypt.

No reputable Islamic Cleric condoneds or supports the ritual.

Uneducated Islamophobes in the West use it to denigrate Islam and Muslims.

[Morrigan]

There is Not one single verse in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the Prophet to support the practice.

It is a primitive custom in use long before Islam. Mainly done in Somalia, Sudan, and parts of Egypt.

No reputable Islamic Cleric condoneds or supports the ritual.

Uneducated Islamophobes in the West use it to denigrate Islam and Muslims.
Except that you said it was forbidden by Islam, not unmentioned. Can you show us a verse or hadith that explicitly forbids female circumcision?

Yes, she talked about this in her book "Infidel". She says she did it because so many women with her story are not given asylum and have to go back to their homes. If I were in her situation, I probably would have lied to get out of it too.
And it was the Netherlands, not Denmark.

[Olowkow]

Well ladies, line forms to the right:

:D
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/12/11/214511.php
Many women in Egypt who have been initially partially circumcised have opted for full circumcision because in day-to-day life it brings about
a very profound feeling of contentment, calmness and satisfaction. You are completely freed from sexual thoughts, you can have no idea how liberating that feels. It is like removing an itch that you cannot scratch. There is no feeling of loss - specifically because the very thing that caused you to desire sex all the time has been removed. Do not believe the myth that sexual arousal is all in the mind.This from:
.... a 30 year old British born nurse. I met and married an Egyptian doctor several years ago, lived in Egypt for several years and converted to Islam and underwent female circumcision. I have no regrets.If you have a strong stomach, you may want to read the whole thing. Sex is enhanced though, :confused: so I guess it passes muster with the guys.
Perhaps castration is a good idea for the males then since they are so sexy all the time.

I agree that it generally has nothing to do with Islam, but some writing can be found that circumcision is required in the religion for both males and females. Not clear what ax these writers have to grind though.

Apologies if this is too much of a derail.

[Roadtoad]

In all fairness, in spite of SunniMan's past declarations, I believe he's correct in this, that the Koran forbids the practice, and that discussions of this are used by Islam's foes to smear the belief.

[Olowkow]

In all fairness, in spite of SunniMan's past declarations, I believe he's correct in this, that the Koran forbids the practice, and that discussions of this are used by Islam's foes to smear the belief.

That may well be, I'm no Koran expert, but:

http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/fourth/aldeeb.html
The Koran does not mention female circumcision, but Classical authors rely again on contested sayings of Mohammed, who is reported to have praised it. They add that female circumcision became a norm among women after Sarah circumcised Hagar, who became pregnant, out of jealously. This is a way to attach female circumcision to the foremother, Hagar, as male circumcision was attached to the forefather, Abraham.


I am finding about as many different opinions as there are Google entries. But "marrying" a 9 or 10 year old is wrong, and abusing a child is criminal.

[Roadtoad]

That may well be, I'm no Koran expert, but:



I am finding about as many different opinions as there are Google entries. But "marrying" a 9 or 10 year old is wrong, and abusing a child is criminal.

No argument. At all.

[Sunni Man]

I am finding about as many different opinions as there are Google entries. But "marrying" a 9 or 10 year old is wrong, and abusing a child is criminal.A girl being married that young is normal in many parts of the world.

But the guy broke the rules by having sex with her before she had reached puberty.

[Olowkow]

A girl being married that young is normal in many parts of the world.

But the guy broke the rules by having sex with her before she had reached puberty.

That was my understanding, that the marriage is arranged but not consummated until ...not sure about the puberty or age. I still feel that forced marriage or betrothal for a 9 year old is wrong. Marriage must be a contract agreed to honestly and openly between two people. There are many cultural beliefs that I find abhorrent, and some simply different and harmless.

As I recall from the story, the "guy who broke the rules", as in raping and beating, was not punished. Or did I miss that?

[Magyar]

Many times what are cultural or traditional norms in a mainly Muslim country are attributed to Islam.

Female circumcision is a case in point. It is a tribal custom mainly found in Africa and predates Islam by thousands of years. It is practiced by Christian, Pagan, and Muslim African tribes.

To be clear, female circumcision in NOT Islamic and is Not found in the Quran or any other Islamic texts. And is forbidden by the religion.

But Islamaphobes and other anti Muslim sources have made it seem like it is a standard Muslim practice.

oh, another pile of dog ***** by the antisemitic!? The ONLY place in the world where xians and female genital mutilation co-exist(ed) is in Africa where native tribes were/are converted to xianity.

But to equate this to the same standards in muslim countries is just another example of your willful ignorance or more likely your willful willingness to LIE!

In countries where 10 year old girls
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=118858 are allowed to be raped and their "husbands" are compensated for losing something instead of being strung up by their balls for the scumbag muslim - err religious pieces of ***** they are. Or where aid workers can be imprisoned http://www.rawa.org/aid.htm.

Do you REALLY expect anyone other then those who are WILLFULLY STUPID to believe that practices like this could continue to flourish without the explicit approval of the local muslim nutters?

As for this meme about poor islam being misunderstood.
I could point to some order of xian monks living in some monastery during the 12 and 13th century and CLAIM that Xianity is all about piece and love and it's misunderstood because of all those lunatics running around butchering people from France to Jerusalem.

the reality is that in any sect one can find people on either end of the bell curve at any time, but it's the median that really defines the group. And just as the nutters running around europe butchering people in the name of the crusades in the 12th and 13th century defined xians it is the same beasts that own islam today and practice this barbarism.

Or -suni man - are you CLAIMING in this thread that islam is just so misunderstood and tolerant that if some african tribal tradition required that 13 year old boys drink some fermented/alcholic drink to pass into manhood, the local imams would just tolerantly overlook the prohibition of alcohol and let the tradition continue? YEA RIGHT

So how is it that FGM can and does continue all over and with some very RARE accept ions in muslim countries ONLY? OH let me guess, it's really some iveeeel zioninst conspiracy.

I've edited this to properly mask the profanity. Please do not circumvent the censor. You may also wish to review your civility levels.

[Magyar]

I still feel that forced marriage or betrothal for a 9 year old is wrong. Marriage must be a contract agreed to honestly and openly between two people.


Well that only works where people have grown beyond being barbaric beasts who consider
50% +/- of their population to be nothing more than breed stock.


As I recall from the story, the "guy who broke the rules", as in raping and beating, was not punished. Or did I miss that?

Err he got REWARDED financially for raping a child. And we should not only understand but TOLERATE this, otherwise we're the ogres.

but in suni's eye ALL he did is break some rule - nothing wrong otherwise there move along

[Roadtoad]

What I can agree with:

1.) No 10 year old child should ever be involved in an arranged marriage. Period. You're dealing with someone who has their whole life ahead of them, who has no life experience, and who has no means of accepting or denying the action legally. It's a form of abuse.

2.) No 10 year old child should ever be engaging in sex. This is not even a form of abuse, it's simply abuse. Period.

3.) Anyone who is involved in arranging a marriage for a 10 year old child, or an adult who is being arranged into such a marriage is an abuser. Period. No discussion, and no excuses.

4.) Anyone who is engaging in sex with a 10 year old child should not be compensated for their actions. They should be taken outside, have their feet tied with a long length of rope, and used as a meat pinata. Period.

This situation described is one of abuse, torture, and destruction. There was no excuse for it, period. Bring on the rope and a tall tree, because this creep needs a beatin'.

[geni]

That was my understanding, that the marriage is arranged but not consummated until ...not sure about the puberty or age. I still feel that forced marriage or betrothal for a 9 year old is wrong. Marriage must be a contract agreed to honestly and openly between two people. There are many cultural beliefs that I find abhorrent, and some simply different and harmless.


Depends how you define marrage. If you live in a society where the only members of the oposite sex you are allowed to have dealings with are blood relatives and those you are married to you are going to fine ways to rule lawyer the marrage clause.

[Sunni Man]

oh, another pile of dog sh8* by the antisemitic!? The ONLY place in the world where xians and female genital mutilation co-exist(ed) is in Africa where native tribes were/are converted to xianity.

But to equate this to the same standards in muslim countries is just another example of your willful ignorance or more likely your willful willingness to LIE!

In countries where 10 year old girls
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=118858 are allowed to be raped and their "husbands" are compensated for losing something instead of being strung up by their balls for the scumbag muslim - err religious pieces of sh8 they are. Or where aid workers can be imprisoned http://www.rawa.org/aid.htm.

Do you REALLY expect anyone other then those who are WILLFULLY STUPID to believe that practices like this could continue to flourish without the explicit approval of the local muslim nutters?

As for this meme about poor islam being misunderstood.
I could point to some order of xian monks living in some monastery during the 12 and 13th century and CLAIM that Xianity is all about piece and love and it's misunderstood because of all those lunatics running around butchering people from France to Jerusalem.

the reality is that in any sect one can find people on either end of the bell curve at any time, but it's the median that really defines the group. And just as the nutters running around europe butchering people in the name of the crusades in the 12th and 13th century defined xians it is the same beasts that own islam today and practice this barbarism.

Or -suni man - are you CLAIMING in this thread that islam is just so misunderstood and tolerant that if some african tribal tradition required that 13 year old boys drink some fermented/alcholic drink to pass into manhood, the local imams would just tolerantly overlook the prohibition of alcohol and let the tradition continue? YEA RIGHT

So how is it that FGM can and does continue all over and with some very RARE accept ions in muslim countries ONLY? OH let me guess, it's really some iveeeel zioninst conspiracy.Are you not feeling well Magyar?

Do we need to call someone for your meds?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I saw this story on the TV news. The girl was extremely intelligent and mature from the looks of it. I can't imagine a typical 10 yr old handling it so well.

But how disgusting of a society that sees this not only as normal, but made the child pay compensation to the pervert when the divorce was granted. This is one cultural tradition that there is no benefit in preserving. These people need to wake up to the modern world.

Creeps!

[Sunni Man]

What I can agree with:

1.) No 10 year old child should ever be involved in an arranged marriage. Period. You're dealing with someone who has their whole life ahead of them, who has no life experience, and who has no means of accepting or denying the action legally. It's a form of abuse.

2.) No 10 year old child should ever be engaging in sex. This is not even a form of abuse, it's simply abuse. Period.

3.) Anyone who is involved in arranging a marriage for a 10 year old child, or an adult who is being arranged into such a marriage is an abuser. Period. No discussion, and no excuses.

4.) Anyone who is engaging in sex with a 10 year old child should not be compensated for their actions. They should be taken outside, have their feet tied with a long length of rope, and used as a meat pinata. Period.

This situation described is one of abuse, torture, and destruction. There was no excuse for it, period. Bring on the rope and a tall tree, because this creep needs a beatin'.
In India, in which there are about a billion Hindus, and several Asian Buddhist countries which total another billion peopel. Arrainged child bride marriages are the norm.

But having sex with a prepubesent girl is not right and against the law in all countries as far as I know.

[Roadtoad]

Are you not feeling well Magyar?

Do we need to call someone for your meds?

I think Magyar's feeling fine. It's a question of outrage, that a child should be abused and her abuser isn't condemned, but rewarded. That no one took a heavy stick and beat the holy f*** out of her "husband" is a further outrage.

Given your past attacks on gays and lesbians, as well as your noted anti-Semitism, your attempt to spin this isn't going to work. There's something intrinsically wrong with a belief system which does not universally condemn this kind of damnable act, and in the strongest terms possible. (Catholic Church, take note.) Sorry, if Magyar's in need of meds, I am too.

[Sunni Man]

I saw this story on the TV news. The girl was extremely intelligent and mature from the looks of it. I can't imagine a typical 10 yr old handling it so well.

But how disgusting of a society that sees this not only as normal, but made the child pay compensation to the pervert when the divorce was granted. This is one cultural tradition that there is no benefit in preserving. These people need to wake up to the modern world.
The Western media is mistaken when it says the man was compensated when he divorce was granted.

He was just given back the dowery money he had paid the girls father for her hand in marriage.

[Roadtoad]

The Western media is mistaken when it says the man was compensated when he divorce was granted.

He was just given back the dowery money he had paid the girls father for her hand in marriage.

How much was the dowery? And why was it given back to a pedophile in the first place? Sorry, but anything short of jail time for engaging in sex with a TEN YEAR OLD CHILD constitutes compensation.

[Sunni Man]

How much was the dowery? And why was it given back to a pedophile in the first place? Sorry, but anything short of jail time for engaging in sex with a TEN YEAR OLD CHILD constitutes compensation.It's their country and their laws.

If you feel so strongly about it. You should fly to Yemen and let your outrage be known.

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is Not one single verse in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the Prophet to support the practice.

It is a primitive custom in use long before Islam. Mainly done in Somalia, Sudan, and parts of Egypt.

No reputable Islamic Cleric condoneds or supports the ritual.

Uneducated Islamophobes in the West use it to denigrate Islam and Muslims.First, both the Bible and the Quran present women as worth less than men and as being subservient to men. As such, both religions suck.

And while you are correct there is no mention of child brides in the Quran, neither is there a prohibition (as far as I could find so by all means quote us the verse if that is not correct).

It is not just Islamic countries that practice this atrocity, it is practiced in India and many Asian countries as well as in Africa. It goes with the territory of arranged marriages and cultures which see women as 2nd class humans and financial burdens to the family. Women and girls are sold for everything from just getting rid of a mouth to feed to actually profiting from selling your child into slavery and/or marriage.

So while it may be wrong to paint this practice with an Islamic brush, I don't see many Muslims out there standing up against the practice and certainly you don't see many of them standing up for women's rights.

To be fair, Christian fundies aren't big on women's rights either.

So how would you divide up the blame here, Sunni Man? I blame the women as 2nd class humans in the tradition of both the Christian and Muslim religions. But in this case, the Muslim religion is currently a stumbling block to the modernization of Islamic countries. I don't think the Christian religion is quite as large a road block. But if you have examples that contradict my assessment, I'm open to reconsider.

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's their country and their laws.

If you feel so strongly about it. You should fly to Yemen and let your outrage be known.There is a global community in case you haven't noticed. The modern world is letting these creeps know through world opinion, this is a disgusting practice. No need to go there.

[Roadtoad]

It's their country and their laws.

If you feel so strongly about it. You should fly to Yemen and let your outrage be known.

First, what Skeptigirl said. That's a solid response right there.

Second, that has got to be one of the worst attempts at a cop-out I've ever seen. Are you serious? Muslims belittle and degrade America with impunity over everything from porn to gay marriage to free speech, yet they do it from every corner of their world. This is called "courageous" by those who support them, but they demand that we go to them to criticize their evils?

Got a hot flash for you, Ace: There's a whole world of difference between two gay men who are of legal age deciding to wed, and a TEN YEAR OLD CHILD who is married off because someone's tradition demands it, only to see her raped and beaten. You might argue about the former, you cannot defend the latter. Ever.

[Sunni Man]

First, both the Bible and the Quran present women as worth less than men and as being subservient to men. As such, both religions suck.

And while you are correct there is no mention of child brides in the Quran, neither is there a prohibition (as far as I could find so by all means quote us the verse if that is not correct).

It is not just Islamic countries that practice this atrocity, it is practiced in India and many Asian countries as well as in Africa. It goes with the territory of arranged marriages and cultures which see women as 2nd class humans and financial burdens to the family. Women and girls are sold for everything from just getting rid of a mouth to feed to actually profiting from selling your child into slavery and/or marriage.

So while it may be wrong to paint this practice with an Islamic brush, I don't see many Muslims out there standing up against the practice and certainly you don't see many of them standing up for women's rights.

To be fair, Christian fundies aren't big on women's rights either.

So how would you divide up the blame here, Sunni Man? I blame the women as 2nd class humans in the tradition of both the Christian and Muslim religions. But in this case, the Muslim religion is currently a stumbling block to the modernization of Islamic countries. I don't think the Christian religion is quite as large a road block. But if you have examples that contradict my assessment, I'm open to reconsider.
In Islam both a man and a woman are equal in the eyes of God. They just have different roles in life.

You are talking about dividing up the blame. Blame for what?

We are happy with the laws of Islam and Islamic society. It's the West that's all upset. We aren't upset at all.

Your attitude is the same one that the British and Spanish had when they colonized and enslaved most of the world. Or Americans did when they committed genicide on the Native American.

It's the Western attitude of we know what's best for you and your people. The West says your culture is inferior and your ways are bad. You MUST become exactly like us or we will destroy you.

[Sunni Man]

There is a global community in case you haven't noticed. The modern world is letting these creeps know through world opinion, this is a disgusting practice. No need to go there.World opinion?

You mean Western opinion. Basically, America, Canada, and Europe.

The other 2/3rds of the world. Asia, South America, Africia, Middle East, China, Russia, India, etc.

Wish the West would shut up and mind their own business!!

[Pardalis]

It's the Western attitude of we know what's best for you and your people. The West says your culture is inferior and your ways are bad. You MUST become exactly like us or we will destroy you.

And yet you chose to remain in America to live...

[Roadtoad]

World opinion?

You mean Western opinion. Basically, America, Canada, and Europe.

The other 2/3rds of the world. Asia, South America, Africia, Middle East, China, Russia, India, etc.

Wish the West would shut up and mind their own business!!

In other words, "Stay silent and accept the abuse of children, the routine denial of human rights to others. Sit fat and happy with your money and shut up, let us destroy what never should have been damaged."

Not gonna happen.

The whole point of Human Rights is that it is about what is best for all, not just for the few. It is a declaration that none should suffer needlessly, that all should enjoy the benefits of a free society, not merely those who have the capital, or the force. It is about maximizing the opportunities, not minimizing the individual. It means it's not just for people who live in a particular locality, but that the ideal belongs to humanity as a whole.

Sorry, dude, but you deserve pity, not respect.

[Sunni Man]

In other words, "Stay silent and accept the abuse of children, the routine denial of human rights to others. Sit fat and happy with your money and shut up, let us destroy what never should have been damaged."

The whole point of Human Rights is that it is about what is best for all, not just for the few. It is a declaration that none should suffer needlessly, that all should enjoy the benefits of a free society, not merely those who have the capital, or the force. It is about maximizing the opportunities, not minimizing the individual. It means it's not just for people who live in a particular locality, but that the ideal belongs to humanity as a whole.

So what are YOU doing about it??

[Roadtoad]

So what are YOU doing about it??

Responding to your inane evil, for one.

[Sunni Man]

And yet you chose to remain in America to live...Why should I move?

People on this forum want to change the Islamic society and culture.

I work on changing Western society and culture.

[Pardalis]

Why should I move?

People on this forum want to change the Islamic society and culture.

I work on changing Western society and culture.

Why don't you move to an Islamic country and mind your own business?

Somehow I feel you enjoy America's freedoms too much to admit.

[PBTree]

World opinion?

You mean Western opinion. Basically, America, Canada, and Europe.

The other 2/3rds of the world. Asia, South America, Africia, Middle East, China, Russia, India, etc.

Wish the West would shut up and mind their own business!!

Of course you do. Minding our own business means that primitive lot of crazy muslims can get on with their raping and beating of young girls without anyone interfering for the children.

Forget the religious side of our skepticism and rage, just imagine our disgust. That should be enough to keep you going for the day

[Sunni Man]

Why don't you move to an Islamic country and mind your own business?

Somehow I feel you enjoy America's freedoms too much to admit.I am a 5th generation American. So why should I move?

The Homos have a political agenda to change America to suit their sodomite lifestyle.

Go to the southern border states and the Hispanics are having laws changed to their vision of America.

I also have the same right to work to change America's laws and culture to suit my political and religious views.

[Sunni Man]

Forget the religious side of our skepticism and rage, just imagine our disgust. That should be enough to keep you going for the daySorry, but it means absolutely nothing to me.

[Bob Blaylock]

It's the Western attitude of we know what's best for you and your people. The West says your culture is inferior and your ways are bad. You MUST become exactly like us or we will destroy you.


So, these images are of us Westerners destroying Muslims because our way is right and yours is wrong and you must be forced to comply with our ways or else be destroyed?

[Pardalis]

I am a 5th generation American. So why should I move?

You apparently dislike Western society.

The Homos have a political agenda to change America to suit their sodomite lifestyle.Err...

Go to the southern border states and the Hispanics are having laws changed to their vision of America.Such as?

I also have the same right to work to change America's laws and culture to suit my political and religious views.So because you're an Islamist you have a right to dislike America, and since you're already an American (genetically), you have the right to want to change it into Islamism? Doesn't make much sense.

[Sunni Man]

and since you're already an American (genetically), you have the right to want to change it into Islamism? Bingo!!!

[Skeptic Ginger]

In Islam both a man and a woman are equal in the eyes of God. They just have different roles in life.I don't suppose it has dawned on you that rationalization is bull on two levels. One, one the most obvious, if you have different roles then you are not equal. And two, get real! Women's rights in the Quran (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/says_about/womens_rights.html) quote by quote. Only a fool would believe men & women are treated equally by the Islamic religious dogma. That would be the foolish women who put up with it and believe that lie, and the foolish men who believe anyone not brainwashed by the claim are actually going to buy it.

You are talking about dividing up the blame. Blame for what?

We are happy with the laws of Islam and Islamic society. It's the West that's all upset. We aren't upset at all.Right, that 10 yr old was real happy. :rolleyes:

Your attitude is the same one that the British and Spanish had when they colonized and enslaved most of the world. Or Americans did when they committed genicide on the Native American.

It's the Western attitude of we know what's best for you and your people. The West says your culture is inferior and your ways are bad. You MUST become exactly like us or we will destroy you.Like I said, it is unquestionably wrong to sell children and women into sexual slavery. I make that judgment in confidence. I am a strong supporter of tolerance and respect for cultural differences, but I draw the line on those that are obviously against human innate sense of morality.

Here you are claiming it is not Islamic culture, then you follow it with some claim of cultural self righteousness. Clearly you are trying to excuse something here. Why is that? Could it be because you realize just how outrageous this is but you don't want to admit it?

[Sunni Man]

So, these images are of us Westerners destroying Muslims because our way is right and yours is wrong and you must be forced to comply with our ways or else be destroyed?Actually, I don't believe that Muslims had anything to do with 9/11.

But that's another thread. :)

[Roadtoad]

Sorry, but it means absolutely nothing to me.

And this is why there is a problem. You ignore the very real physical harm being done to others, all in the name of Sharia Law, while insisting that there is no harm being done. In fact, quite the opposite: you claim that there is a benefit to this. And you don't understand why people look on this as evil.

I thank GTITS that I'm packing up for another week on the road. Geez, reading crap like this leaves me wanting a beer. Or at least a shot of Jack.

[Roadtoad]

Bingo!!!

Wrongo!

[Roadtoad]

Actually, I don't believe that Muslims had anything to do with 9/11.

But that's another thread. :)

You're right. It's for another thread.

But you're wrong. Muslims had EVERYTHING to do with 9/11. And mindless denial of the great evil done in the name of Islam simply perpetuates the evil.

Just a suggestion: A big piece of plexiglass right there in your midriff would help you see where you're walking.

[Skeptic Ginger]

World opinion?

You mean Western opinion. Basically, America, Canada, and Europe.

The other 2/3rds of the world. Asia, South America, Africia, Middle East, China, Russia, India, etc.

Wish the West would shut up and mind their own business!!Now that's interesting. Here you are claiming we are stereotyping Islam, then you fail to notice there are large numbers of people in all parts of the world who recognize this backward practice for what it is, backward and disgusting. There are only a few countries, almost all Muslim I dare say, that make this kind of practice officially sanctioned. Most countries outlaw it at least in writing. Governments may look the other way or fail to stop it within some internal communities, but the majority of countries Western or not, do not officially condone this kind of atrocity.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Actually, I don't believe that Muslims had anything to do with 9/11.

But that's another thread. :)Then I guess it is no surprise you are in denial with your head in the sand about the OP topic as well. If you just deny it, you don't have to face up to the fact this is the culture and religion you condone.

[Sunni Man]

I don't suppose it has dawned on you that rationalization is bull on two levels. One, one the most obvious, if you have different roles then you are not equal. And two, get real! Women's rights in the Quran (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/says_about/womens_rights.html) quote by quote. Only a fool would believe men & women are treated equally by the Islamic religious dogma. That would be the foolish women who put up with it and believe that lie, and the foolish men who believe anyone not brainwashed by the claim are actually going to buy it.
Wow!! Who made you God, judge, and jury for the people of the world?

A policeman and a fireman have different roles to play in society. But yet they are equal.

Same with men and women the world over. It's just that in Islamic culture the lines are still drawn up as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.

The West has let their young women become loose sluts and dress and act like blatant whores

While in Islamic society women are still raised pure and protected.

[Pardalis]

BTW Sunni, I didn't see anybody in this thread advocating changing Yemeni society.

It'll change itself or it will stay the same, whatever may be, but we have a right as Westerners to be outraged right?

[Sunni Man]

It'll change itself or it will stay the same, whatever may be, but we have a right as Westerners to be outraged right?Of course you do!!

[Sunni Man]

Here is what most people on this forum don't understand. Yemen is an Arab country and culture.

Revenge for dishonor is severe. The little girls family has been greatly dishonored.

Her tribe will consist of her father, brothers, uncles, cousions, etc. This could easily be anywhere from a few hundred members to several thousand.

I would expect to read within a year that this low life guy was found with his throat cut and laying in a ditch.

[Pardalis]

Of course you do!!

Aren't you?

You said yourself that it was against the law to rape an underaged child. Where's your indignation? The only thing you've done so far in this thread is criticize the West for being rightfully appalled.

[GreyICE]

Well, once again we see another Islamic country, practicing what appears to be pretty typical Islam, as its practiced around the world. Maybe it's not how Islam has evolved in America, but I believe that's more a function of America, and less a function of Islam.

And as usual, we see the 'Western' Muslim's excuses:

1) X is not only not a part of Islam, it's strictly forbidden (even if all the clerics promoting it point to passages in the Koran and recorded views of Mohammad to support it).

2) EVEN THOUGH X is condemned by Islam, it's obviously cultural bias to condemn a person who does this.

3) You can't claim your culture is superior, even though we frequently claim our culture is superior. And only one of us is raping and torturing people as 'cultural practice'.


Give me the 5% or so who honestly condemn it and the 80% or so who vocally support it instead of this namby-pamby middle who is making apologies for monsters.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Wow!! Who made you God, judge, and jury for the people of the world?

We did; as a rational, compassionate, individuals who know human suffering when we see it.

A policeman and a fireman have different roles to play in society. But yet they are equal.

Same with men and women the world over. It's just that in Islamic culture the lines are still drawn up as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.

Wrong. Gender is NOT a job description. We do not have any "roles to play in society" save for what WE decide, not by the command of your (or any other religion's) imaginary tyrant.

Civilized, freedom-loving cultures don't draw up lines of acceptability based on something as arbitrary as whether you have a penis or a vulva.

The West has let their young women become loose sluts and dress and act like blatant whores

Again, it's called FREEDOM... Deal with it!

While in Islamic society women are still raised pure and protected.

Yeah, as human chattle.

[Sunni Man]

Aren't you?

You said yourself that it was against the law to rape an underaged child. Where's your indignation? The only thing you've done so far in this thread is criticize the West for being rightfully appalled.The man was brought before a Yemeni court of law. Their decision has already been rendered and the case is closed. So I am not going to loose sleep over it.

The people on this forum used the incident to attack ALL of Islam and Muslims.

I was just defending some of the misinformed things said about the religion and it's people.

[Pardalis]

The man was brought before a Yemeni court of law. Their decision has already been rendered and the case is closed. So I am not going to loose sleep over it.

The people on this forum used the incident to attack ALL of Islam and Muslims.

I was just defending some of the misinformed things said about the religion and it's people.

That's the thing, the "husband" wasn't prosecuted, he was compensated.

You said yourself it is illegal to rape a child in Islam. Where's your indignation at the illogical ruling? Shouldn't he be charged with rape and severely punished?

Don't you have any self-criticism left or do you follow your religion's ruling whatever it says? Can't you see your own contradiction here?

[Olowkow]

Wow!! Who made you God, judge, and jury for the people of the world?

A policeman and a fireman have different roles to play in society. But yet they are equal.

Same with men and women the world over. It's just that in Islamic culture the lines are still drawn up as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.

The West has let their young women become loose sluts and dress and act like blatant whores

While in Islamic society women are still raised pure and protected.

Oh, surely you have not bought into that one too. As Dawkins said, "They're not my women." That is just over the top as far as I'm concerned.

[Sunni Man]

Civilized, freedom-loving cultures don't draw up lines of acceptability based on something as arbitrary as whether you have a penis or a vulvaReally? There is the PGA and the WPGA.

And the MBA and the WMBA

Have you ever seen a real life woman who was a Navy Seal? Green Beret? Ranger?

(the slut Demi Moore doesn't count, it was just a movie!)

[Sunni Man]

That's the thing, the "husband" wasn't prosecuted, he was compensated.

You said yourself it is illegal to rape a child in Islam. Where's your indignation at the illogical ruling? Shouldn't he be charged with rape and severely punished?

Don't you have any self-criticism left or do you follow your religion's ruling whatever it says? Can't you see your own contradiction here?Her in America sometimes ultra liberal judges let pedophiles off with just probation or a slap on the wrist. I have seen it in the news several times.

The judge made the decision and it can't be reversed. What can you do?

Was the pedophile a Christian?

[trustbutverify]

[QUOTE=Sunni Man;3878100]World opinion?

You mean Western opinion. Basically, America, Canada, and Europe.

The other 2/3rds of the world. Asia, South America, Africia, Middle East, China, Russia, India, etc.

Wish the West would shut up and mind their own business!![/QUOTE

Someday, hopefully, you will experience the kind of nightmare this brave little girl went through. Then we'll see the real you.

[Pardalis]

Her in America sometimes ultra liberal judges let pedophiles off with just probation or a slap on the wrist. I have seen it in the news several times.

The system has flaws, but they get registered as sex offenders and their rights are diminished as a result. They don't get compensated.

The judge made the decision and it can't be reversed. What can you do?

Protest.

Was the pedophile a Christian?

He was Muslim in this case.

[Sunni Man]

The system has flaws, but they get registered as sex offenders and their rights are diminished as a result. They don't get compensated.Once again, he wasn't compensated. He just got his dowery money back.

[Pardalis]

Once again, he wasn't compensated. He just got his dowery money back.

Was he punished?

[Sunni Man]

Was he punished?Yes, acourding to Yemeni law

[Pardalis]

Yes, acourding to Yemeni law

How was he punished?

[Olowkow]

I'm curious what others in the Islamic community in the US are saying about this. Is it possible that, as a Muslim, if one speaks out against the decision he is in danger of reprisals? I have noted in the past that veiled threats of violence were used by a certain poster when criticisms were leveled at his religion.

[trustbutverify]

We did; as a rational, compassionate, individuals who know human suffering when we see it.



Wrong. Gender is NOT a job description. We do not have any "roles to play in society" save for what WE decide, not by the command of your (or any other religion's) imaginary tyrant.

Civilized, freedom-loving cultures don't draw up lines of acceptability based on something as arbitrary as whether you have a penis or a vulva.



Again, it's called FREEDOM... Deal with it!



Yeah, as human chattle.

Very good post.

Also- I like and respect loose sluts.

[Sunni Man]

How was he punished?The guy went to a Yemeni court and a verdict was given.

Justice was served whether you agree with the verdict or not.

I was not the girls or the guys lawyer. So I had no influence over the outcome.

This dialogue has gotten tedious and boring.

So I am going to call it a night.

[Pardalis]

Pathetic.

[GreyICE]

The guy went to a Yemeni court and a verdict was given.

Justice was served whether you agree with the verdict or not.So the definition of Justice is "Judge's verdict?"

I thought you believed in a higher morality than human morality. If you believe that Justice as a concept is defined by man's laws in a courtroom, then congratulations! You don't believe in a higher power or a higher ideal of Justice. So not only do you lack a belief in a personal God, you believe heavily in at least some of the central tenants of nihilism.

Eventually, therefore, you will throw of the trappings of a religion you do not believe in.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Really? There is the PGA and the WPGA.

And the MBA and the WMBA

As silly as that sort of segregation is, to compare it to the Muslism world's treatment of women is evidence of not only your disgusting misogyny, but your blatant stupidity.

Worst Tu Quoque ever!

Have you ever seen a real life woman who was a Navy Seal? Green Beret? Ranger?

Just because the U.S. Military is as sexist as you are does not make their moronic policies right. Women should be allowed to become SEALS, Green Beret, Rangers, or whatever so long as they can meet the physical qualifications.

Having a vagina shouldn't be one of them.

(the slut Demi Moore doesn't count, it was just a movie!)

Again, I find your Islamic notion of "respect" for women to be quite, quite, revealing.

[Sunni Man]

So the definition of Justice is "Judge's verdict?"

I thought you believed in a higher morality than human morality. If you believe that Justice as a concept is defined by man's laws in a courtroom, then congratulations! You don't believe in a higher power or a higher ideal of Justice. So not only do you lack a belief in a personal God, you believe heavily in at least some of the central tenants of nihilism.

Eventually, therefore, you will throw of the trappings of a religion you do not believe in.Are you really that lame??

It wasn't a stupid secular court like your kind believe in.

It was an Islamic Court governed by Sharia Law.

[Sunni Man]

Again, I find your Islamic notion of "respect" for women to be quite, quite, revealing.I only respect good women with morals and modest behaviour.

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?

[Achán hiNidráne]

The guy went to a Yemeni court and a verdict was given.

Justice was served whether you agree with the verdict or not.

Sooooo... back in the 1950s, when KKK members accused of murdering African-Americans were acquitted by all-white juries, THAT was "justice" too, correct?

Assuming you are who you've claimed to be, you're a savage, Sunni. Savage, barbarous, and comtemptable.

This dialogue has gotten tedious and boring.

So I am going to call it a night.

Coward. Why don't you just admit you've lost?

[Sunni Man]

Sooooo... back in the 1950s, when KKK members accused of murdering African-Americans were acquitted by all-white juries, THAT was "justice" too, correct?

Coward. Why don't you just admit you've lost?The African Americans were tried in American/Western secular courts.

What does that injustice have to do with Islam?

What have I lost??

[Achán hiNidráne]

I only respect good women with morals and modest behaviour.

Right, in otherwords women who will allow you to treat them like crap...

...in the name of Allah, of course.

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?

Because, no matter what anyone's filthy little faith claims, there is nothing "immoral" about consensual sex and erotic nudity.

[Sunni Man]

Because, no matter what anyone's filthy little faith claims, there is nothing "immoral" about consensual sex and erotic nudity.To immoral and perverted people who have no values. Everything is acceptable no matter how decadent or debasing.

[Achán hiNidráne]

The African Americans were tried in American/Western secular courts.

I wasn't talking about "African Americans," but white racists who got away with murder because the justice system of the deep southern states decided that it was OK for a manure-shoveling Klansman to lynch an innocent man on the basis of his skin color.

Don't try to change the ***** subject.

What does that injustice have to do with Islam?

Do you need hand puppets to help?

Well, both the Klansmen and the the scum-sucker in question were both tried by judges. If a judge decides it, then releasing racist murders is just as much "justice" as deciding that a man WHO BEATS A YEAR OLD GIRL shouldn't be punished.

And sorry, giving a dowry back doesn't count as punish. Not by a long shot.

What have I lost??

If I had to explain it to you, then you're too stupid to understand.

I have masked your profanity properly, according tothe MA. Please also watch your civility levels.

[Achán hiNidráne]

To immoral and perverted people who have no values. Everything is acceptable no matter how decadent or debasing.

What makes it "immoral?" Why is it "decandent and debasing?"

Come on, Sunni. Edited for civility

[Pardalis]

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?

She was a stripper in a movie. Remember? Just a movie.

[Achán hiNidráne]

She was a stripper in a movie. Remember? Just a movie.

[Edited for civility]

Infracting for ignoring mod box above.

[PBTree]

Here is what most people on this forum don't understand. Yemen is an Arab country and culture.

Revenge for dishonor is severe. The little girls family has been greatly dishonored.

Her tribe will consist of her father, brothers, uncles, cousions, etc. This could easily be anywhere from a few hundred members to several thousand.

I would expect to read within a year that this low life guy was found with his throat cut and laying in a ditch.

:dl:

Ha ha your so funny sunni boy. Think about this; THEY SOLD THE POOR YOUNG LASS TO HIM, WHAT DO THEY CARE!

Sorry about the shouting folks but I'm sure you will excuse me just this once.

[Sunni Man]

Ha ha your so funny sunni boy. Think about this; THEY SOLD THE POOR YOUNG LASS TO HIM, WHAT DO THEY CARE!

She wasn't sold. All Islamic marriages include a dowry. It is a gift, not a payment.

[Sunni Man]

She was a stripper in a movie. Remember? Just a movie.
Whether it was a movie or in person. She took her clothes off for money.

She is a nasty and immoral hooker.

[Pardalis]

Whether it was a movie or in person. She took her clothes off for money.

Good thing she did, since her role was a stripper. Wouldn't have made much sense if she didn't.

Just like her role in G.I. Jane, she undertook intensive physical training, that's what actors do.

[PBTree]

She wasn't sold. All Islamic marriages include a dowry. It is a gift, not a payment.


Stop it, my sides are hurting.....


The Western media is mistaken when it says the man was compensated when he divorce was granted.

He was just given back the dowery money he had paid the girls father for her hand in marriage.

your words, not mine.

I wonder how much he paid, for the privilege of showing the world how disgusting and sub-human he and the girl's father are.

;)

[Sunstealer]

The West has let their young women become loose sluts and dress and act like blatant whores

While in Islamic society women are still raised pure and protected.Obviously not otherwise this poor 10 year old girl would have been protected and not "married" off to a man who raped and beat her. As for "raised pure" this shows exactly what you think of women. It sounds to me as if women are there to be controlled by men. I'd much rather women be allowed to dress and act how they like than be forced into marriage, beaten and raped at the age of ten.

Have you ever seen a real life woman who was a Navy Seal? Green Beret? Ranger?Are blind pilots accepted as fighter pilots? The answer to that nonsensical question is as obvious as the answer to your nonsensical question. Plenty of western women serve in the armed forces but none currently serve in a direct combat role (infantry) although this does not mean they do not end up serving alongside infantry.

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?Being a human being?


Sunniman - you are not a very good advertisement for Islam or Muslims. If this is what becomes of someone who is given the freedom, education and exposure to moderation in the US, then I hate to think of the thoughts of those who are fed the propaganda in some other countries in the world. I hope that you are in a very tiny minority and do not represent the general consensus with such intolerance or close mindedness.

If he is part of a majority then the world is going to end up in dire straights.

[Chimera]

Sunniman - you are not a very good advertisement for Islam or Muslims. If this is what becomes of someone who is given the freedom, education and exposure to moderation in the US, then I hate to think of the thoughts of those who are fed the propaganda in some other countries in the world.

Great point.

The Western media is mistaken when it says the man was compensated when he divorce was granted.
He was just given back the dowery money he had paid the girls father for her hand in marriage.

You may be wrong about that. In this LA Times article (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-childbride11-2008jun11,1,6109944.story?page=1), the parents claim they didn't receive dowry.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Well, once again we see another Islamic country, practicing what appears to be pretty typical Islam, as its practiced around the world. Maybe it's not how Islam has evolved in America, but I believe that's more a function of America, and less a function of Islam.

And as usual, we see the 'Western' Muslim's excuses:

1) X is not only not a part of Islam, it's strictly forbidden (even if all the clerics promoting it point to passages in the Koran and recorded views of Mohammad to support it).

This isn't a fair criticism - many mainstream Islamic clerics were condemning FGM and trying to stamp it out long before it even got into the Western consciousness as far as I can remember my reading about the topic. Other Islamic clerics, of course, defended it, but by and large most Islamic-influenced governments are trying to stamp the practise out one way or another and most of the arguments given for FGM by practitioners are based on cultural ideals of cleanliness, hygiene, attractiveness and so on rather than claiming an Islamic basis for the practise.

FGM is an African cultural practise (and a vile one). It was around before Islam, Islam has to some extent been involved in reducing its prevalence, and I'm not aware of any evidence that Islam has been a significant factor in promoting the practise.

To put it another way, the relationship between FGM and Islam is a lot like the relationship between slavery and Christianity in the 1800s. Lots of Christians opposed it on religious grounds, some Christians supported it on religious grounds, but the practise didn't have anything directly to do with Christianity.

[RandFan]

I only respect good women with morals and modest behaviour.

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?For being a human being who hasn't hurt anyone. What does her sex life have to do with you?

[Pardalis]

For being a human being who hasn't hurt anyone. What does her sex life have to do with you?

I don't know exactly why, but most religious fundies have an inherited fear of women.

[PBTree]

I only respect good women with morals and modest behaviour.

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?


Quick question without notice:

The young girl in this story divorced her husband; would you classify her as one of those 'good women' that you respect?

:)

[RandFan]

...Islam has to some extent been involved in reducing its prevalence... I honestly don't know but I would be surprised. Muslims, AIU, take such an extreme view of chastity and such a dim view of women I would think Islam quite conducive to the practice. What am I missing? What about Islam would reduce the prevalence? I'll confess that my knowledge of Islam is not that good and I've been taken to task on these forums in the past for getting facts wrong about the Muslims. Also I concede that there are many different Muslim peoples, cultures, sects, etc.. From Turkey to Pakistan which tend to be more secular to Saudi Arabia and Somalia which tend to be less secular and Iran where the people love much of western culture but the country is cracking down on dress codes and conduct and of course many other nations and people in between.

So, if you know, tell me why you think Islam is a force of good to end this insidious practice.

Female Circumcision in ISLAM - many girls bleed to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ayD4sfSm2Y)

[RandFan]

I don't know exactly why, but most religious fundies have an inherited fear of women. It borders on pathological.

[Sunni Man]

Good thing she did, since her role was a stripper. Wouldn't have made much sense if she didn't.

Just like her role in G.I. Jane, she undertook intensive physical training, that's what actors do.
I am sure that disrobing was very physically demanding and required alot of training.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I honestly don't know but I would be surprised. Muslims, AIU, take such an extreme view of chastity and such a dim view of women I would think Islam quite conducive to the practice. What am I missing? What about Islam would reduce the prevalence?

Take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Islam

One Sunni sect promotes it, most of the rest seem to tolerate it at best and often oppose it, and Muslim leaders have been condemning the practise in groups since at least 1998. (I may be wrong in thinking many condemned it much earlier, since I can't find a source that backs that up with a cursory search, but I do think I remember reading about it).

Similarly governments in Muslim areas have been active in trying to get rid of FGM.

What about Islam would reduce the prevalence? To me that's like asking what about Christianity would reduce slavery. Some of the time, some of the people following these religions actually read and act on the good bits. Not often enough for my taste, but it happens.

[GreyICE]

This isn't a fair criticism - many mainstream Islamic clerics were condemning FGM and trying to stamp it out long before it even got into the Western consciousness as far as I can remember my reading about the topic. Other Islamic clerics, of course, defended it, but by and large most Islamic-influenced governments are trying to stamp the practise out one way or another and most of the arguments given for FGM by practitioners are based on cultural ideals of cleanliness, hygiene, attractiveness and so on rather than claiming an Islamic basis for the practise.

FGM is an African cultural practise (and a vile one). It was around before Islam, Islam has to some extent been involved in reducing its prevalence, and I'm not aware of any evidence that Islam has been a significant factor in promoting the practise.

To put it another way, the relationship between FGM and Islam is a lot like the relationship between slavery and Christianity in the 1800s. Lots of Christians opposed it on religious grounds, some Christians supported it on religious grounds, but the practise didn't have anything directly to do with Christianity.

I really wasn't referring to FGM here. I was referring to the general treatment of women as slaves to be forcibly married and abused by their husbands in general.

The topic drifted to FGM, but I was referring to the OP.

[Sunni Man]

I really wasn't referring to FGM here. I was referring to the general treatment of women as slaves to be forcibly married and abused by their husbands in general.
Do you know this to be a fact?

Do you know any Muslim women?

If so, have you talked to them about their marriage and husbands?

[Nogbad]

Do you know this to be a fact?

Do you know any Muslim women?

If so, have you talked to them about their marriage and husbands?

I know a few. I know one chap who wouldn't dare cross his wife - she a real dragon. I recall a couple a few years ago where the husband tried the "head of the household" thing. He hit her and she kicked the living crap out of him and it all ended in divorce. I know a couple of others who seem as happy as any other married couple. In truth I can't say Islam seems to make a jot of difference to the usual range of martial experiences.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wow!! Who made you God, judge, and jury for the people of the world?

A policeman and a fireman have different roles to play in society. But yet they are equal.There's a big difference. They chose their professions. And they actually do have equal rights. You post a big lie claiming women are equal in Muslims societies.

Same with men and women the world over. It's just that in Islamic culture the lines are still drawn up as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.

The West has let their young women become loose sluts and dress and act like blatant whores

While in Islamic society women are still raised pure and protected.I am pleased and completely unashamed to have had the privilege of growing up in a Western culture during the 'sexual revolution'. Sex is great fun. Only a selfish man thinks he has to have some woman who has not been with anyone else. And while I don't begrudge the choice of a woman to be a real "whore" if the woman so chooses to make money by those means, the vast majority of prostitutes in the world today are only prostitutes because their unequal status often leaves them with no education, extreme poverty, vulnerable to exploitation by men and with no options but to sell their body or starve.

I have an education and am not dependent on any man. I own my own home, have a successful business, raised a wonderful son who I am now putting through college. I live in a very nice house that is now paid for. My car is paid for. I don't need to worry about buying the best food in the grocery store. Clearly women are better off in my situation than one in the culture you claim is so 'equal'.

Women in hijabs 'need sunlight or risk illness' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-469196/Women-hijabs-need-sunlight-risk-illness.html)

Human Rights Watch - Women's Rights (http://www.hrw.org/women/)Millions of women throughout the world live in conditions of abject deprivation of, and attacks against, their fundamental human rights for no other reason than that they are women.

Combatants and their sympathizers in conflicts, such as those in Sierra Leone, Kosovo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, and Rwanda, have raped women as a weapon of war with near complete impunity. Men in Pakistan, South Africa, Peru, Russia, and Uzbekistan beat women in the home at astounding rates, while these governments alternatively refuse to intervene to protect women and punish their batterers or do so haphazardly and in ways that make women feel culpable for the violence. As a direct result of inequalities found in their countries of origin, women from Ukraine, Moldova, Nigeria, the Dominican Republic, Burma, and Thailand are bought and sold, trafficked to work in forced prostitution, with insufficient government attention to protect their rights and punish the traffickers. In Guatemala, South Africa, and Mexico, women's ability to enter and remain in the work force is obstructed by private employers who use women's reproductive status to exclude them from work and by discriminatory employment laws or discriminatory enforcement of the law. In the U.S., students discriminate against and attack girls in school who are lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgendered, or do not conform to male standards of female behavior. Women in Morocco, Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia face government-sponsored discrimination that renders them unequal before the law - including discriminatory family codes that take away women's legal authority and place it in the hands of male family members - and restricts women's participation in public life.(Emphasis mine.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

The man was brought before a Yemeni court of law. Their decision has already been rendered and the case is closed. So I am not going to loose sleep over it.

The people on this forum used the incident to attack ALL of Islam and Muslims.

I was just defending some of the misinformed things said about the religion and it's people.You can't seem to make up your mind. Out of one side of your mouth you claim not "ALL of Islam and Muslims" should be painted with the same brush, while out of the other side you defend the practice.

I don't believe for a minute that "ALL of Islam and Muslims" would condone this atrocity. Being Muslim in no way requires you to be a backward unsophisticated stuck in the past creep.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Really? There is the PGA and the WPGA.

And the MBA and the WMBA

Have you ever seen a real life woman who was a Navy Seal? Green Beret? Ranger?

(the slut Demi Moore doesn't count, it was just a movie!)So you are claiming men get the privilege of treating women like property because men have a different physical build on average?

[Sunni Man]

I am pleased and completely unashamed to have had the privilege of growing up in a Western culture during the 'sexual revolution'. Sex is great fun. Only a selfish man thinks he has to have some woman who has not been with anyone else. And while I don't begrudge the choice of a woman to be a real "whore" if the woman so chooses to make money by those means, the vast majority of prostitutes in the world today are only prostitutes because their unequal status often leaves them with no education, extreme poverty, vulnerable to exploitation by men and with no options but to sell their body or starve.

I have an education and am not dependent on any man. I own my own home, have a successful business, raised a wonderful son who I am now putting through college. I live in a very nice house that is now paid for. My car is paid for. I don't need to worry about buying the best food in the grocery store. Clearly women are better off in my situation than one in the culture you claim is so 'equal'.
There is very little difference between your outlook on life and a common prostitute.

Saddly, you don't realize how immoral you have become in yor thinking and way of life.

Then again, you are a typical Western woman.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you really that lame??

It wasn't a stupid secular court like your kind believe in.

It was an Islamic Court governed by Sharia Law.There you go again trying to have it both ways. If it was an Islamic court how can you then whine when we complain about the religious beliefs that make this kind of atrocity common?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I only respect good women with morals and modest behaviour.

Demi Moore is a nasty slut and a stripper who has NO morals and is basically a whore. What should she be respected for?So you respect women who let men dominate them? I respect a woman more who has the courage to make a better life for herself and fight back against the injustice of male domination.

[Sunni Man]

So you respect women who let men dominate them? I respect a woman more who has the courage to make a better life for herself and fight back against the injustice of male domination.Are you a lesbian?

[Skeptic Ginger]

To immoral and perverted people who have no values. Everything is acceptable no matter how decadent or debasing.Goodness. Forcing a 10 yr old child to marry a pedophile who then rapes and beats her and a society that tolerates such behavior is fine. But a women like Demi Moore who to my knowledge has simply had 2 long term relationships is immoral and perverted.

Wow.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you a lesbian?
No.

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is very little difference between your outlook on life and a common prostitute.

Saddly, you don't realize how immoral you have become in yor thinking and way of life.

Then again, you are a typical Western woman.You don't seem to understand what true morality is.


This is immorality: (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-childbride11-2008jun11,1,6109944.story?page=1)Nujood's parents say they were trying to do what was best for their daughter and didn't even receive a dowry, a claim many Yemenis don't believe. The parents say the groom had promised he wouldn't have sex with her until she reached puberty. ...

The trouble started on the first night, when he demanded that they share a mattress. She resisted, walking out of the room, only to have him follow. Sometimes he beat her into submission. For weeks, she cried all day and dreaded the nights, when he would enter the room, blow out the oil lamp and demand sex....

On a visit weeks later to her parents' house in the capital, she wept, saying that her husband was doing unmentionable things to her.

Her father said there was nothing he could do.

This is morality: (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-childbride11-2008jun11,1,6109944.story?page=2)But her mother's sister discreetly advised her to go to court.
...

Nujood says that at first, she felt ashamed about what had happened to her. "But I passed through that," she says, eyes narrowing beneath her black head scarf.

"All I want now is to finish my education," she adds, her mouth curling into a smile. "I want to be a lawyer."...

When the controversy died down, Nujood insisted on going back to live with her parents, most likely because she is very close to her sister Haifa, 8. ...

She says she's had enough of marriage and domestic life, and looks forward to beginning third grade and pursuing dreams she never knew she had.

"I want to defend oppressed people," she says. "I want to be like Shada. I want to be an example for all the other girls."

[Pardalis]

There is very little difference between your outlook on life and a common prostitute.

Saddly, you don't realize how immoral you have become in yor thinking and way of life.

Then again, you are a typical Western woman.

Isn't your mother a Western woman?

BTW, how was the man punished for his crime of rape? You never got to tell me.

[pchams]

Muslims, like most religious types, are gullible fools.
It's not surprising you would see such savage, backwards practices from believers in silly tales.

[billydkid]

Child bride gets divorced after rape, beatings

SANAA, Yemen (CNN) -- Nujood Ali is 10 years old, but she already has been married and divorced. It was an arranged marriage in which she said a husband three times her age routinely beat and raped her.

Read the rest (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/15/yemen.childbride/index.html)

The 10-year old was granted a divorce, but the abusive husband was compensated, not prosecuted. "Based on based on the principles of Islamic Sharia law."

Muslims try to say that Islam is a religion of peace and completely compatible with a modern democratic society. WTF is up with this madness? Please tell me what I'm missing here.
Your intolerance is sickening. Your failure to appreciate the legitimacy of other cultures and values is very sad. It's all good, it's just different - don't you know that? You and your smug western values. Who are you to judge the forced marriage and rape of children? For all you know, she was probably asking for it. Just because you think women and children are legitimately people with basic rights doesn't mean that they are. :boggled:

I have to add that rejecting the idea that we are all endowed with certain rights by virtue of our existence and championing the idea that we only get our rights from society is the path to this kind of injustice. This idea that we all automatically are entitled to certain rights regardless of what society or culture or the law says is a vastly superior and more humane approach to existence and why anyone would feel the compulsion to reject that idea - which, to my mind, is the great gift to humanity of the enlightenment - is beyond me.

[Damien Evans]

In all fairness, in spite of SunniMan's past declarations, I believe he's correct in this, that the Koran forbids the practice, and that discussions of this are used by Islam's foes to smear the belief.

Well, everyone has to be right sometimes.

[Morrigan]

There is very little difference between your outlook on life and a common prostitute.

Saddly, you don't realize how immoral you have become in yor thinking and way of life.

Then again, you are a typical Western woman.
Can you elaborate on what immoralities skeptigirl has committed? Is it the enjoyment of sex, or the refusal to submit to a man? Or perhaps it's daring to create a business and make her own money? What?

[Sunni Man]

Or perhaps it's daring to create a business and make her own money? That is one of the misconceptions about Islam.

In Islam women are allowed to own and run a business. There is nothing unIslamic about women having a career or working.

Prophet Muhammads first wife Khadija was a very rich and successful business woman. In fact, Muhammad was employed by her a couple of years before they were married.


Another little known fact is that any and all money made by a Muslim woman in her business or at work is 100% her's to keep. A Muslim husband is NOT allowed to touch his wifes income. She my contribute to the household if she desires, but it is totally up to her.

A Muslim man is to provide everything and pay ALL of the bills.


In my personal life, my wife is a Doctor. As an M.D. she make's alot more money than I do. I have NO idea how much money she has in her bank account. It's not my business.

I pay all of the bills and we live on my income. If she want's to buy something for the home, that's up to her.

[PBTree]

That is one of the misconceptions about Islam.

In Islam women are allowed to own and run a business. There is nothing unIslamic about women having a career or working.

Prophet Muhammads first wife Khadija was a very rich and successful business woman. In fact, Muhammad was employed by her a couple of years before they were married.


Another little known fact is that any and all money made by a Muslim woman in her business or at work is 100% her's to keep. A Muslim husband is NOT allowed to touch his wifes income. She my contribute to the household if she desires, but it is totally up to her.

A Muslim man is to provide everything and pay ALL of the bills.


In my personal life, my wife is a Doctor. As an M.D. she make's alot more money than I do. I have NO idea how much money she has in her bank account. It's not my business.

I pay all of the bills and we live on my income. If she want's to buy something for the home, that's up to her.


Tell that to the women in Afghanistan.....:nope:


.

[Sunni Man]

Tell that to the women in Afghanistan.....:nope:
What would you like me to tell them?

[Pardalis]

Sunni, what punishment did the rapist get?

[Sunni Man]

Sunni, what punishment did the rapist get?Look up the vertict yourself. It was in a legal court of law.

[Pardalis]

Look up the vertict yourself. It was in a legal court of law.
I want you to tell me.

[Sunni Man]

I want you to tell me.Sorry, but I don't work for you. You don't pay enough! :)

[Pardalis]

But having sex with a prepubesent girl is not right and against the law in all countries as far as I know.
But the guy broke the rules by having sex with her before she had reached puberty.

What punishment did the criminal receive?

What is the punishment for rape in Islamic law?

Why are you afraid to answer? You're not a pussy are you?

[billydkid]

That is one of the misconceptions about Islam.

In Islam women are allowed to own and run a business. There is nothing unIslamic about women having a career or working.

Prophet Muhammads first wife Khadija was a very rich and successful business woman. In fact, Muhammad was employed by her a couple of years before they were married.


Another little known fact is that any and all money made by a Muslim woman in her business or at work is 100% her's to keep. A Muslim husband is NOT allowed to touch his wifes income. She my contribute to the household if she desires, but it is totally up to her.

A Muslim man is to provide everything and pay ALL of the bills.


In my personal life, my wife is a Doctor. As an M.D. she make's alot more money than I do. I have NO idea how much money she has in her bank account. It's not my business.

I pay all of the bills and we live on my income. If she want's to buy something for the home, that's up to her.Man, are you getting screwed or what???? She makes all the money and you pay all the bills??? That is pretty whacked if you ask me.

[Sunni Man]

Man, are you getting screwed or what???? She makes all the money and you pay all the bills??? That is pretty whacked if you ask me.That's the way it is in an Islamic marriage. :eye-poppi

On the plus side. I recently mentioned how much I like the new XK Jag.

Maybe I'll see one on the driveway sometime in the near future! :)

[Skeptic Ginger]

In all fairness, in spite of SunniMan's past declarations, I believe he's correct in this, that the Koran forbids the practice, and that discussions of this are used by Islam's foes to smear the belief.While I realize this was in reference to circumcision, the subject of sex with kids is not addressed as far as I could find in the Skeptic's Annotated Quran. I know one of those cartoons that insulted Mohammed had him with a child bride. Do you know where in the Quran it addresses sex with kids or circumcision one way or the other? I asked SunniMan to cite the Quran on sex with kids but he ignored the request for evidence.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can you elaborate on what immoralities skeptigirl has committed? Is it the enjoyment of sex, or the refusal to submit to a man? Or perhaps it's daring to create a business and make her own money? What?I notice he just avoided answering this. But really, who gives a rat's ass? I don't judge my self worth by other people's standards.

[Chimera]

Sunni, what punishment did the rapist get?


Look up the vertict yourself. It was in a legal court of law.


From Newsvine (http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/04/16/1435451-yemeni-judge-dissolves-8-year-old-girls-forced-marriage), bolding mine:

A provision in Yemeni law allows parents to sign marriage contracts for children younger than 15. However, the article states that a husband can only consummate the marriage when the wife reaches puberty.

"We know that this is not what happened" in the girl's case, her lawyer said.

There are no provisions for any punishment for a husband in such cases.

[PBTree]

I notice he just avoided answering this. But really, who gives a rat's ass? I don't judge my self worth by other people's standards.


I "Judge you Worthy" skeptigirl. But then again, I'm Tasmanian.

:)

[PBTree]

Quote:
A provision in Yemeni law allows parents to sign marriage contracts for children younger than 15. However, the article states that a husband can only consummate the marriage when the wife reaches puberty.

"We know that this is not what happened" in the girl's case, her lawyer said.

There are no provisions for any punishment for a husband in such cases.


The most amazing thing about this is that they actually call the sub-human, pædophilic piece of garbage, her husband. How sad is that for us husbands?

I would call for his castration but I doubt there are any. ;)

[Cactus Wren]

We are happy with the laws of Islam and Islamic society. It's the West that's all upset. We aren't upset at all.
Right, that 10 yr old was real happy. :rolleyes:

A white Southerner (U.S.) from about 1900 to 1965 might have as easily said, "We Southerners are happy with Jim Crow laws. It's the Yankees that are all upset. We aren't upset at all." Completely unaware or perhaps unconcerned that he was speaking, not for "Southerners", but for "White Southerners".

Just as Sunni Man (ahem) seems equally unaware or unconcerned that he is speaking for the male portion of "Islamic society".

[Morrigan]

That is one of the misconceptions about Islam.
*stuff about women and money*
Fine, so skeptigirl isn't an immoral prostitute-like woman because she works and makes money. So, why are you saying she is so? You failed to answer this simple question. Are you a coward?

[Sunni Man]

Fine, so skeptigirl isn't an immoral prostitute-like woman because she works and makes money. So, why are you saying she is so? You failed to answer this simple question. If she is having sex outside of marriage. Then she is immoral and No different than a hooker. Except she is giving it away for free.

[GreyICE]

If she is having sex outside of marriage. Then she is immoral and No different than a hooker. Except she is giving it away for free.

I don't even know where to start on how wrong this statement is. There are multiple avenues to reveal exactly how stupid this is.

I mean maybe we could start with the idea that sex is something that men want and women give.

Maybe we could start with the concept of marriage, and whether immorality as a concept can mean anything when a piece of paper turns an immoral act moral.

Maybe we should start with the idea that people should only have a relationship with one person in their entire life, no matter how much they or their partner change.

No, no, I give up. So. Much. Failure.

[Morrigan]

If she is having sex outside of marriage. Then she is immoral

Why?


and No different than a hooker. Except she is giving it away for free.
What makes you think she, or any woman for that matter, is "giving it away"? Are you suggesting that they don't *want* to have sex?

Hookers sell their bodies in exchange for money, usually out of desperation, not for the enjoyment of sex. But you know that, don't you? You're just trolling.

[Sunni Man]

Hookers sell their bodies in exchange for money, usually out of desperation, not for the enjoyment of sex. They don't prostitute out of desperation. They could go out and get a job. McDonalds is always hiring people.

[GreyICE]

They don't prostitute out of desperation. They could go out and get a job. McDonalds is always hiring people.

Trust the man. He speaks from vast personal experience.

[Skeptic Ginger]

If she is having sex outside of marriage. Then she is immoral and No different than a hooker. Except she is giving it away for free.:dl:

[Skeptic Ginger]

They don't prostitute out of desperation. They could go out and get a job. McDonalds is always hiring people.OK, now this is definitely an answer suggesting you are a forum troll. Even you could not really be that stupid.

See post # 108 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3882053#post3882053) and remind yourself about that serious tunnel vision your stupid comment reflected.

[Sunni Man]

OK, now this is definitely an answer suggesting you are a forum troll. Even you could not really be that stupid.
Please explain what is so stupid about they could get a real job?

They spend hours applying their trade.

Couldn't they use those same hours working a legitimate job.

Thousands of people work at McDonalds.

Are they somehow above other people who work and don't prostitute?

[kerikiwi]

If she is having sex outside of marriage. Then she is immoral
Why?

As to the statement that she is giving it away for free, you are very confused: the fact is she is getting it for free.
Silly, silly man!

[Pardalis]

I wonder what percentage of Johns are actually Muslim men.

Since they are so sexually repressed, that wouldn't be far fetched to believe alot of them "indulge" in secret.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Please explain what is so stupid about they could get a real job?

...I did explain, in post #108.

[Sunni Man]

I did explain, in post #108.
Your fantasy explanation of why these women have to sell their bodies is silly.

Any woman could get out of the hooker trade and get a legitimate job at any fast food place. There is no previous training needed and you don't have to have any advanced education.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Clearly you didn't look at post #108, Sunni. You are just sticking your foot further into your mouth.

[Sunni Man]

Clearly you didn't look at post #108, Sunni. You are just sticking your foot further into your mouth.Please enlighten me about post #108 that you keep refering to. As I clearly don't see what your point is that you are trying to make. Thank You.

[mrbaracuda]

Many times what are cultural or traditional norms in a mainly Muslim country are attributed to Islam.

Female circumcism is a case in point. It is a tribal custom mainly found in Africia and predates Islam by thousands of years. It is practiced by Christian, Pagan, and Muslim African tribes.

To be clear, female curcumcision in NOT Islamic and is Not found in the Quran or any other Islamic texts. And is forbidden by the religion.

But Islamaphobes and other anti Muslim sources have made it seem like it is a standard Muslim practice.
A fair point and an Islamic scholar on the programme said emphatically that it is not allowed. The cleric in the turban begged to differ but then he was also big on execution of homosexuals and other lunatic ideas - I suspect he was just not a very nice person.
It certainly does not seem to be formally "forbidden". Is there a source supporting this statement? It is definitely the subject of much controversy.
There is Not one single verse in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the Prophet to support the practice.

It is a primitive custom in use long before Islam. Mainly done in Somalia, Sudan, and parts of Egypt.

No reputable Islamic Cleric condoneds or supports the ritual.

Uneducated Islamophobes in the West use it to denigrate Islam and Muslims.

I suppose the clerics over at al-Azhar who certified 'Umdat al-Salik (mainly Shafi'i school positions; differing positions pointed out) are islamophobes trying to denigrate Islam and Muslims. You know, the stuff they live by and preach as well as teach.


e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafhis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)
(368) not getting circumcised, even after having reached puberty;

[mrbaracuda]

I don't know exactly why, but most religious fundies have an inherited fear of women.

There are some parts of Arab history that survived through Islamic recordings which indicate a kind of matriarchy, ranging from Muhammad's first wive being a successful business woman on her own choosing her husbands herself as well as another woman who led a battle against Muslims. Can't remember the name of the latter though.

[Sunni Man]

I suppose the clerics over at al-Azhar who certified 'Umdat al-Salik (mainly Shafi'i school positions; differing positions pointed out) are islamophobes trying to denigrate Islam and Muslims. You know, the stuff they live by and preach as well as teach.Not quite sure what you point is?

Yes there are people like this Umdat fellow who believe in female circumcision. So what?

It is NOT found in the Quran nor taught by the Prophet.

As I have said before it is a traditional pre-Islamic custom mainly in Sudan, Somalia, and parts of Egypt. That is 3 Islamic countries out of about 70.


There are Churches in Tennessee that believe and practice that a Christian must handle poison snakes to be rightious. Should ALL of Christianity be judged by this small cult of people?


Should ALL Muslims be judged by a minority of people who practice this rite?

[mrbaracuda]

Not quite sure what you point is?

I would express this, but I fear I might violate the MA.

Yes there are people like this Umdat fellow who believe in female circumcision. So what?

Book Description
The new edition of the in-depth manual of Islamic law based on the Shafi'i school of thought, with a detalied index and commentary on specific rulings. 1,200 pages in an exceptional binding with Arabic and facing English text in two column format with occasional diagrams. 'Umdat al-Salik wa 'Uddat al-Nasik (Reliance of the Traveller and tools of the Worshipper) is a classic manual of fiqh. It represents the fiqh rulings according to the Shafi'I school of jurisprudence. The appendices form an integral part of the book and present original texts and translations from classic works by prominent scholars such as al-Ghazali, Ibn Qudamah, al-Nawawi, al-Qurturbi, al-Dhahabi, Ibn Hajar and other, on topics of Islamic law, faith, spirituality, Qur'anic exegesis and Hadith sciences. It has also biographical notes about every person mentioned (391 biographies) , bibliography of each work cited (136 works), and a detailed subject index (95 pages). Of the 136 works drawn upon in its commentary and appendices, 134 are in the original Arabic. The sections and paragraphs have been numbered to facilitate cross-reference.

That is 'Umdat al-Salik.

It is NOT found in the Quran nor taught by the Prophet.

Don't tell me, tell all the Shafi'i, Hanafi, Hanbali and Maliki who seem to 'make up' this stuff. For starters. Then move on to Shias if you want, since you already got like what, 90% of all Muslims covered it might not be necessary, right?

As I have said before it is a traditional pre-Islamic custom mainly in Sudan, Somalia, and parts of Egypt. That is 3 Islamic countries out of about 70.

Your paedo-prophet didn't seem to have a problem with it. Or are those scholars all lying? I don't think you want to go there. But hey, I am fine with you not liking the practice.
Are you actually one of those 'I'll only take what's in the Quran' type of Muslims? What about the Sunnah then? Ahadith? Just throw it out the window?

There are Churches in Tennessee that believe and practice that a Christian must handle poison snakes to be rightious. Should ALL of Christianity be judged by this small cult of people?

No, Christianity should be judged by what had been taught and transmitted in consent. You know, like the stuff you find in 'Umdat al-Salik when it comes to Islam.

Should ALL Muslims be judged by a minority of people who practice this rite?

No, since I am aware there's also sane people who are 'Muslims'. You know, like those who don't want to kill people because of their (lack of) religion or sexuality or freedoms they would certainly not enjoy in a pretty retarded culture Islam promotes.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Please enlighten me about post #108 that you keep refering to. As I clearly don't see what your point is that you are trying to make. Thank You.:dig: :footinmou

You really should look at the post before you keep digging your hole deeper. You are looking sillier and sillier with your, get a job at McDonald's, claims.

[Sunni Man]

Once again, it is not found in the Quran nor taught by the Prophet.

The Shafi'i school of Islamic thought is the main school found in both Sudan and Somalia.

Female circumcision is practiced by all Islamic women in both of those countries.

I believe that if the people in those countries want to practice female circumcision. That is their right and their business.



I only knew 'Umdat al-Salik by it's English name: "Reliance of the Traveller and tools of the Worshipper".

[Sunni Man]

There's a big difference. They chose their professions. And they actually do have equal rights. You post a big lie claiming women are equal in Muslims societies.

I am pleased and completely unashamed to have had the privilege of growing up in a Western culture during the 'sexual revolution'. Sex is great fun. Only a selfish man thinks he has to have some woman who has not been with anyone else. And while I don't begrudge the choice of a woman to be a real "whore" if the woman so chooses to make money by those means, the vast majority of prostitutes in the world today are only prostitutes because their unequal status often leaves them with no education, extreme poverty, vulnerable to exploitation by men and with no options but to sell their body or starve.

I have an education and am not dependent on any man. I own my own home, have a successful business, raised a wonderful son who I am now putting through college. I live in a very nice house that is now paid for. My car is paid for. I don't need to worry about buying the best food in the grocery store. Clearly women are better off in my situation than one in the culture you claim is so 'equal'.

Women in hijabs 'need sunlight or risk illness' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-469196/Women-hijabs-need-sunlight-risk-illness.html)

Human Rights Watch - Women's Rights (http://www.hrw.org/women/)(Emphasis mine.)
O.K. here is post #108

What is the big deal about it? Seriously?

[Morrigan]

Sunni Man, a few questions:

1) Why is having sex before marriage immoral?

2) Is it immoral only for the women, or do you think men who have sex before marriage are sluts and just like prostitutes too?

3) Why do you think a woman who has sex before marriage is "giving it away for free"? Someone said she was "getting it for free", explain why you think he's wrong.

I wonder what percentage of Johns are actually Muslim men.

Since they are so sexually repressed, that wouldn't be far fetched to believe alot of them "indulge" in secret.

I used to work for a company specialised in internet affiliation... which included adult sites. I suspect many would be amazed at the proportion of clients from the Middle East, even more so at the high numbers from places like Saudi Arabia.

[PBTree]

Quick question without notice:

Can people in the muslim religion have sex without the intention of making a baby? eg. wearing a condom, taking the pill etc etc.

[mrbaracuda]

Quick question without notice:

Can people in the muslim religion have sex without the intention of making a baby? eg. wearing a condom, taking the pill etc etc.

Just like Catholics can, they can. I have no idea how widespread the distribution of condoms and prescription of the pill etc. is in the countries you might mean though. From a theological viewpoint, there's only coitus interruptus as a permissible form of contraception, although many hold the view it's better not to do it, like the Shafi'i school.

[mrbaracuda]

Once again, it is not found in the Quran nor taught by the Prophet.

Yea right: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/072.sbt.html#007.072.777)

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 777:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic region, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short."

You know what Fitra is, don't you? And you should know what it means when something is sunna, right, Sunni Man?

So you actually are one who wishes to throw the ahadith out the window? Away with the sunnah? How do you think will that work?

But yea, damn all those Muslim islamophobes. You know, like your frikkin 'prophet' himself.

[Sunni Man]

You do realize that the example that you quoted out of the Hadith is for male Muslims not women. The part about cutting the moustache should have been a clue!

Once again, female circumcision is NOT found in the Quran or taught by the Prophet.

[Sunni Man]

Quick question without notice:

Can people in the muslim religion have sex without the intention of making a baby? eg. wearing a condom, taking the pill etc etc.Yes, contraception is allowed in Islam.

[mrbaracuda]

You do realize that the example that you quoted out of the Hadith is for male Muslims not women. The part about cutting the moustache should have been a clue!

So women don't have pubic hair and fingernails? Yea, right.

Once again, female circumcision is NOT found in the Quran or taught by the Prophet.

Well don't tell me, tell those islamophobes at al-Azhar who are denigrating Islam. In the meantime, since it will take some time for your wife to draw up a letter addressing the wrongs of the scholars of al-Azhar like Qaradawi, you could point us to the part of the Quran that talks about circumcision of men.

[Skeptic Ginger]

O.K. here is post #108

What is the big deal about it? Seriously?

Are you afraid to actually read the post or something, Sunni? If you want me to comment further, you're going to have to actually discuss what I posted there in the context of your inane claim that all prostitutes had to do were to get jobs at McDonald's.

[borealys]

Sunni Man, a few questions:

1) Why is having sex before marriage immoral?

2) Is it immoral only for the women, or do you think men who have sex before marriage are sluts and just like prostitutes too?

3) Why do you think a woman who has sex before marriage is "giving it away for free"? Someone said she was "getting it for free", explain why you think he's wrong.


I'd like to see the answers to these questions.

[Sunni Man]

2) Is it immoral only for the women, or do you think men who have sex before marriage are sluts and just like prostitutes too?
It is immoral for the men also.

[mrbaracuda]

Sent those letters yet, Sunni Man? I hope you'll show those islamophobes!

[Sunni Man]

Sent those letters yet, Sunni Man? I hope you'll show those islamophobes!Mrbaracuda just because you throw around a few Islamic words. You think you are some kind of Islamic Scholar.

You my impress some of the more gulible people on the forum.

But believe me, your grasp of Islamic theology is quite lame.

[Morrigan]

No answer for question #1 and #3, then?

[Sunni Man]

No answer for question #1 and #3, then?
Sex before or outside of marriage is immoral. Even children are taught this simple concept. So why should I have to explain it to you?

[kerikiwi]

Sex before or outside of marriage is immoral. Even children are taught this simple concept. So why should I have to explain it to you?

Oh, go on. Feel free to treat us like children and explain it to us.
And you are, of course, totally, totally, totally wrong to claim that even children are taught this simple concept.

[mrbaracuda]

Mrbaracuda just because you throw around a few Islamic words. You think you are some kind of Islamic Scholar.

Well as long as you know what they mean...

You my impress some of the more gulible people on the forum.

Oh hopefully!

But believe me, your grasp of Islamic theology is quite lame.

If you say so. Anyway, this does not answer my question. But never mind, not my business, this whole inter-faith dialogue thing among islamophobes. :D

[billydkid]

Sex before or outside of marriage is immoral. Why?

[mrbaracuda]

Why?

That's because one of the islamophobes said so. Case solved!

[moon1969]

Islam is a religion of peace.

[Morrigan]

Sex before or outside of marriage is immoral. Even children are taught this simple concept. So why should I have to explain it to you?

Oh please, you'll have to try harder than that. I give you a 2/10 on your trolling. Too obvious.

[borealys]

Sex before or outside of marriage is immoral. Even children are taught this simple concept. So why should I have to explain it to you?

Translation: It just is.

[Roadtoad]

Here's what I see:

SunniMan's wife is a physician. She does not contribute to the household, her money is her own. She's pretty much separated by Sharia Law from responsibility for the family, save for the raising of the kids, and whatever it is that SunniMan allows her to do.

I don't see too much difference from the woman in Afghanistan who's more or less her husband's property. SunniMan's wife has no real dog in the fight when it comes to the family, even though she's an MD. She's simply a more expensive piece of property than the woman in Kabul who has no education or skills.

Sorry, in my home, Peggy not only shares in all property, but in the decisions we make. When we buy a Kenworth, it will be OUR truck, and she will share in the responsibility of keeping it running. She is my full partner in the marriage, and while she will have different responsibilities within our home, (as SunniMan claims is the case for him), she is fully my equal. She can veto any decision I make, so long as her veto is based on fact, (which, much to my irritation, is usually the case. Common sense ain't so common around this house, so I'm grateful my bride has it, even if I sometimes don't.)

Just a thought.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I enjoy sex if I am attracted to the man and the circumstances are right. Too bad, Sunni Man, (if you are not just a troll) that you've been brainwashed into a culture that can't accept such an idea. You are going to miss out on a lot of things life has to offer simply because of your beliefs that dominating and possessing women has more benefits than simply respecting all members of the group equally. I suspect most men who aren't cursed with the defect of excessive jealousy (which unfortunately I recognize some are) would find cultures that see women as independent individuals preferable to those that see women as possessions of men. The benefits are by far better in such cultures.

[Sunni Man]

I enjoy sex if I am attracted to the man and the circumstances are right. Too bad, Sunni Man, (if you are not just a troll) that you've been brainwashed into a culture that can't accept such an idea. You are going to miss out on a lot of things life has to offer simply because of your beliefs that dominating and possessing women has more benefits than simply respecting all members of the group equally. I suspect most men who aren't cursed with the defect of excessive jealousy (which unfortunately I recognize some are) would find cultures that see women as independent individuals preferable to those that see women as possessions of men. The benefits are by far better in such cultures.Although most Western men try to have sex with as many girls as they can.

When it comes time to get married. They would rather have a women who is a virgin or hasn't been with many men.

Basically, in Western culture, that is getting harder and harder to find.

So they end up with a bed ridden skank who has slept with dozens of men and most likely has at least one STD. I am not even mentioning the teen pregancy she may of had that resulted in an abortion.

Yea, Western/American women are a real treasure. If you like your jewelry worn and tarnished.

[Sunni Man]

Here's what I see:

SunniMan's wife is a physician. She does not contribute to the household, her money is her own. She's pretty much separated by Sharia Law from responsibility for the family, save for the raising of the kids, and whatever it is that SunniMan allows her to do.

I don't see too much difference from the woman in Afghanistan who's more or less her husband's property. SunniMan's wife has no real dog in the fight when it comes to the family, even though she's an MD. She's simply a more expensive piece of property than the woman in Kabul who has no education or skills.

Sorry, in my home, Peggy not only shares in all property, but in the decisions we make. When we buy a Kenworth, it will be OUR truck, and she will share in the responsibility of keeping it running. She is my full partner in the marriage, and while she will have different responsibilities within our home, (as SunniMan claims is the case for him), she is fully my equal. She can veto any decision I make, so long as her veto is based on fact, (which, much to my irritation, is usually the case. Common sense ain't so common around this house, so I'm grateful my bride has it, even if I sometimes don't.)
Sounds like you have a good woman and a good marriage Roadtoad.

Mine isn't much different.

Except my wife doesn't have veto power over me. I am the Man of the house and I make the final decision. Yes, I listen to her advice. And like many women, her common sense outlook trumps mine. But again, I make the final decision. Period.

That's just the natural order of the universe.

[Roadtoad]

Yea, Western/American women are a real treasure. If you like your jewelry worn and tarnished.

I wasn't aware that a woman was an object to be treasured. To my mind, a woman is a companion, a partner, a friend, whose wisdom is to be sought, whose courage is to be rewarded, and whose joy is to be multiplied. And rather than holding it against her if she has, in the past, enjoyed the company of men, I find it's far better to celebrate the fact that she now devotes her time to me, and that I am her sole companion. I reinforce this by not straying myself towards other companions, since this would, in fact, make a lie of my love for her. I realize there are other couples who feel differently, that it's okay to get a little outside of home, but that's their choice.

So, rather than demand, I demonstrate. Seems to work a lot better.

[Sunni Man]

To my mind, a woman is a companion, a partner, a friend, whose wisdom is to be sought, whose courage is to be rewarded, and whose joy is to be multiplied. Very well put Roadtoad. I agree with these sentiments exactly.

In Islam, we men are to be all that you have expressed towards our wives also.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Although most Western men try to have sex with as many girls as they can.

When it comes time to get married. They would rather have a women who is a virgin or hasn't been with many men.

Basically, in Western culture, that is getting harder and harder to find.

So they end up with a bed ridden skank who has slept with dozens of men and most likely has at least one STD. I am not even mentioning the teen pregancy she may of had that resulted in an abortion.

Yea, Western/American women are a real treasure. If you like your jewelry worn and tarnished.Ah yes, the myth that somehow having sex 'ruins' a woman. I can assure you that is indeed a myth.

And I'm pretty sure the men I have had sex with would agree. I like Roadtoad, gravitate toward partners that see the relationship as one of best friends and lovers. I have never been attracted to men who viewed women as separate from their circle of friends even though I have come across many men who do view their partners this way.

You, with the attitude you describe, would just not be the least bit attractive to me. So the fact I am not attractive to you doesn't bother me in the least.

[kerikiwi]

That's just the natural order of the universe.

I am trying, but I cannot think of anything you could say which would better demonstrate how utterly foolish you are. You might be able to say something which equals it (in fact, you have) but nothing to exceed it.

Very well put Roadtoad. I agree with these sentiments exactly.

In Islam, we men are to be all that you have expressed towards our wives also.
No,you don't agree with Roadtoad. You think women should be subservient to men.

[Darth Rotor]

That may well be, I'm no Koran expert, but:
The intersection of religion and cultures is most interesting, no matter the variation. My next door neighbors are Jehova's Witnesses.
But "marrying" a 9 or 10 year old is wrong,
In your land. You seem to presume everyone thinks as you do.
and abusing a child is criminal.
Beating one's spouse, of whatever age, is not a great way to make for a harmonious household, eh?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Allah's Apostle said, "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra:

circumcision,
shaving the pubic region,
clipping the nails
and cutting the moustaches short."

That's four, for what it's worth, and the issue of females of Arab or other Muslim persuasion having mustaches is a derail, I suspect. :p

So, let's pretend the rules applied to women, rather than men. Muslims like:

Circumcised women
Bald genitalia
Trimmed nails
Women with short mustaches.

Somewhat different tastes than mine, but there ya go, tastes differ. :p

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Although most Western men try to have sex with as many girls as they can.
There was a time I pursued such aims.
When it comes time to get married. They would rather have a women who is a virgin or hasn't been with many men.
Really? All Western men want to marry virgins? Your assumptions are showing.
Basically, in Western culture, that is getting harder and harder to find.
Harder and harder is why the men are trying to swyve all those lassies.
So they end up with a bed ridden skank who has slept with dozens of men and most likely has at least one STD.
Really? Most marriages in "the West" are where at least one partner has an STD? Do you have some solid research and stats on that? My marriage is a data point not in accordance with that allegation of questionable veracity.
I am not even mentioning the teen pregancy she may of had that resulted in an abortion.
May have had. Here in Texas we lead the nation in teen pregnancy, it's quite prevalent. Funny old dog, marriages don't match pregnancies. Go figure.
Yea, Western/American women are a real treasure. If you like your jewelry worn and tarnished.
Here's a different metaphor: some people like to ride horses who are well broken in, or at least somewhat broken in. Here's a secret for you: quality of sex between two people rarely has anything to do with virginity, and a lot more to do with discovering one another and finding ways to please one another.

Try in sometime. You are married, you won't be sinning. :cool:

DR

[Roadtoad]

A website with some info which might bear on this discussion.

Check out the Apostates of Islam. (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/index.htm)

[Silentknight]

After reading over this thread, one very important question comes to mind. Why aren't we immediately rounding up the likes of Anthony Hopkins, Dennis Hopper, and Kevin Spacey and putting them on trial for murder? After all, pretending to kill someone in a movie role is no different from killing someone in real life. These men are violent nasty murderers who have NO morals and are basically sociopaths. What should they be respected for? :D

[Roadtoad]

After reading over this thread, one very important question comes to mind. Why aren't we immediately rounding up the likes of Anthony Hopkins, Dennis Hopper, and Kevin Spacey and putting them on trial for murder? After all, pretending to kill someone in a movie role is no different from killing someone in real life. These men are violent nasty murderers who have NO morals and are basically sociopaths. What should they be respected for? :D

Well, that might be kind of tough, since Anthony Hopkins is dead.

[PBTree]

Another question without notice sunniman.

Is your wife allowed to converse on forum's such as this? I mean, can she debate with us on the pros and cons of being an islamic female?

Don't think this has been asked before, so apols if it has but would still like an answer.

:)

[mrbaracuda]

That's four, for what it's worth

Are you questioning the mighty wisdom of the paedo sand dweller? :eek:
You Bush lover. :D

[Morrigan]

Well, that might be kind of tough, since Anthony Hopkins is dead.

Er...?

[Silentknight]

After reading over this thread, one very important question comes to mind. Why aren't we immediately rounding up the likes of Anthony Hopkins, Dennis Hopper, and Kevin Spacey and putting them on trial for murder? After all, pretending to kill someone in a movie role is no different from killing someone in real life. These men are violent nasty murderers who have NO morals and are basically sociopaths. What should they be respected for? :D

Well, that might be kind of tough, since Anthony Hopkins is dead.
Wait, (http://www.deadoraliveinfo.com/dead.nsf/hnames-nf/Hopkins+Anthony) what? (http://whosaliveandwhosdead.com/detail.asp?n=hopkan01)

Oh yeah, I also forgot to add Christopher Walken to that list. He needs to be punished too.

[Sunni Man]

Another question without notice sunniman.

Is your wife allowed to converse on forum's such as this? I mean, can she debate with us on the pros and cons of being an islamic female?

Don't think this has been asked before, so apols if it has but would still like an answer.
She has never ask me to allow her to post on a debate forum such as this one.

But I doubt that I would grant her permission to participate on a secular forum like this place.

[GreyICE]

She has never ask me to allow her to post on a debate forum such as this one.

But I doubt that I would grant her permission to participate on a secular forum like this place.

Can we please just ban people for excessive trolling? PLEASE?

[Sunni Man]

Can we please just ban people for excessive trolling? PLEASE?
Exactly what is your problem ICE?

I was asked a direct question and I answered it.

How it that trolling?

[GreyICE]

Exactly what is your problem ICE?

I was asked a direct question and I answered it.

How it that trolling?

You. You are trolling. Everything you write on these forums is a troll. It's like Ann Coulter playing a Muslim or something. Okay, very funny, I'm sure I would have thought it hilarious when I was 13 too.

[Sunni Man]

You. You are trolling. Everything you write on these forums is a troll. It's like Ann Coulter playing a Muslim or something. Okay, very funny, I'm sure I would have thought it hilarious when I was 13 too.Just because you don't like my answers, you scream trolling.

Everything I post is exactly what I think and believe.

If you don't agree with me. Than debate the issue.

Crying troll all of the time is very childish.

[GreyICE]

Just because you don't like my answers, you scream trolling.

Everything I post is exactly what I think and believe.

If you don't agree with me. Than debate the issue.

Crying troll all of the time is very childish.

It's not crying trolling. It's all in your profile.

Your biography says "Born in an underground cave in Scandinavia, likes eating people, hates sunlight."

Your location is: "under a bridge."

Your interests are: "Annoying people on internet forums"

Your occupation is: "Collecting money from people who cross my bridge."

[Sunni Man]

GreyICE you are the First person I have ever put on ignore. Bye

[GreyICE]

GreyICE you are the First person I have ever put on ignore. Bye

I'm so proud of me right now.

[PBTree]

She has never ask me to allow her to post on a debate forum such as this one.

But I doubt that I would grant her permission to participate on a secular forum like this place.

tks. I only ask these questions in hope that you are serious and not trolling as I am curious about it.

I really can't see how a sensible, intelligent woman would let herself get into a situation where she has to ask permission to do things. ergo the questions.

How about voting. Is she allowed to vote for her choice, or is your choice her choice? And if your choice is her choice, how do you know who she voted for if you aren't allowed in the cubicle?

[Pardalis]

I'm so proud of me right now.

I'm jealous.

[kerikiwi]

I was asked a direct question and I answered it.

Here's one you missed:
Why is extra-marital sex immoral?

And another:
How do you reconcile claiming that your wife is your equal, with ordering her to refrain from certain actions?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Just because you don't like my answers, you scream trolling.

Everything I post is exactly what I think and believe.....You are so blatantly stereotypical it is hard to take you seriously. It also seems unlikely that someone with your views would bother discussing them here. I'm with GreyIce in that I also believe you are making it all up. That is exactly what I think and believe.

On the other hand, your backward beliefs, if that is what you believe, don't bother me. So if you are looking for a response to get your jollies, frankly, I don't care. And if you really believe what you say, frankly I don't care either. Such nonsensical beliefs are inferior and thus destined to fade away as the human species matures. There is a reason so many people in the world would love to immigrate to America.

So, post away.

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's not crying trolling. It's all in your profile.

Your biography says "Born in an underground cave in Scandinavia, likes eating people, hates sunlight."

Your location is: "under a bridge."

Your interests are: "Annoying people on internet forums"

Your occupation is: "Collecting money from people who cross my bridge."Well that evidence certainly favors the troll conclusion. Added to the 'too classical of a stereotype to be true' that he presents, I'd say troll is a reasonable evidence based conclusion.

[Sunni Man]

tks. I only ask these questions in hope that you are serious and not trolling as I am curious about it.

I really can't see how a sensible, intelligent woman would let herself get into a situation where she has to ask permission to do things. ergo the questions.

How about voting. Is she allowed to vote for her choice, or is your choice her choice? And if your choice is her choice, how do you know who she voted for if you aren't allowed in the cubicle?As far as voting. She can vote for whoever she wants. She is 100% for Obama. Personally I am not wild about either canidate. I really don't know what Obama really stands for on several issues and McCain is just another Bush the sequel.

An Islamic woman is a respectful and polite woman. If my wife is wanting to go visit a friend or go to the store shopping. She will come and ask permission. I have never told her NO. But she always asks anyway out of courtesy.

I have Never had an arguement with my wife. And I have Never laid a hand on her. Islam is the center of our marriage. We both know what the religion says and both follow it's teachings. She is my best friend and a terrific companion. I am one lucky guy.

[kerikiwi]

Why is extra-marital sex immoral?

She asks out of courtesy? Fair enough. And because she is your best friend and a terrific companion, you offer her the same courtesy, of course.
And you also are respectful and polite, are you not?

[PitPat]

I really don't know what Obama really stands for on several issues and McCain is just another Bush the sequel.



I'm surprised you wouldn't vote for a fellow Muslim.

Seriously though, you rail and rail against corrupt Western behaviors (corrupt by your biased standards). Are you actively engaged in trying to reverse these societal trends besides posting on message boards and calling 95% of American women sluts?

I'm still thinking troll, but I'd be curious to know what you're doing offline to correct this massive heinous immorality. Or is it easier just to judge.

[Sunni Man]

She asks out of courtesy? Fair enough. And because she is your best friend and a terrific companion, you offer her the same courtesy, of course.
And you also are respectful and polite, are you not?I don't ask her permission to go any where, but I always tell her where I am going.

I do respect her and tell her so everyday in loving terms. And yes I am very polite and always open the car door for her or move the chair when she is seating in a restaurant. It's those little things I have found that warms a womans heart.

[Morrigan]

If the whole asking for permission thing was just a courtesy, and that you never say no, then you wouldn't say you would not allow her to post here. You are effectively saying that you are forbidding her to do things, which means she's not your equal.
QED.

[kerikiwi]

Why is extra-marital sex immoral?

You are very polite to your wife as long as she obeys you. What happens if she wants to do something you don't want to give permission for?
You expect us to believe that you believe an equal is one who is subordinate.
I also think you live under a bridge.

[Sunni Man]

If the whole asking for permission thing was just a courtesy, and that you never say no, then you wouldn't say you would not allow her to post here. You are effectively saying that you are forbidding her to do things, which means she's not your equal.
QED.Basically, this is a mixed forum. Meaning there are both men and women posting here. She would never dialogue on a mixed forum.

An Islamic woman doesn't talk or dialogue with non relative men.

I don't have tell her No, because she knows what is proper and improper within the religion.

[kerikiwi]

Why is extra marital sex immoral?

You don't have to tell her no?
If she decided to do it anyway, what would you do?
How do you reconcile saying that your wife is your equal, with claiming the right to control her actions?

[GreyICE]

Basically, this is a mixed forum. Meaning there are both men and women posting here. She would never dialogue on a mixed forum.

An Islamic woman doesn't talk or dialogue with non relative men.

I don't have tell her No, because she knows what is proper and improper within the religion.

Also, because of the rules against sock-puppets and the strictness with which they are enforced, he'd be banned for giving a figment of his imagination an account.

[kerikiwi]

But an Islamic man may talk with non-relative women, obviously.

[Morrigan]

An Islamic woman doesn't talk or dialogue with non relative men.

My devoutly Muslim Algerian friend would scoff at you, but then she'd be smart enough to know you're trolling, too. I mean first you say your wife is an MD, and then that she doesn't talk with non-relatives? So all her patients are women? :newlol

You are mediocre at this trolling thing, too.

[kerikiwi]

Mediocre, perhaps, but high marks for persistence.
As for the patients all being women: it ain't necessarily so.
She examines the men without actually speaking to them.
I have been known to do that, and believe me, it can be a lot of fun!

[Sunni Man]

My devoutly Muslim Algerian friend would scoff at you, but then she'd be smart enough to know you're trolling, too. I mean first you say your wife is an MD, and then that she doesn't talk with non-relatives? So all her patients are women?

Of course she talks with patients spouces and co-workers.

But my statement was about talking to strangers on the internet.

What makes you think your Muslim friend would scoff at me?

My wife and I observe "purdah" in our social lives and worship.

Ask your friend about it and what it means.


btw She is an obstetrician. So yes her patients are women.

[lionking]

Am I the only one astounded that someone with the intelligence to qualify as a doctor (if in fact this is true) can be attracted to someone professing sunni man's views?

[Hokulele]

Am I the only one astounded that someone with the intelligence to qualify as a doctor (if in fact this is true) can be attracted to someone professing sunni man's views?


To be fair, compartmentalizing and denial are a fairly well-known phenomena. I have seen many otherwise intelligent people act foolishly in one or more aspects of their lives, so it isn't all that unlikely. It is probably the same type of response a married woman would have when discovering her partner has an obsession with discussing anal intercourse.

[kerikiwi]

Why is extra marital sex immoral?

You don't have to tell her no?
If she decided to do it anyway, what would you do?
How do you reconcile saying that your wife is your equal, with claiming the right to control her actions?


But my statement was about talking to strangers on the internet
No it wasn't. This was your statement:
An Islamic woman doesn't talk or dialogue with non relative men.

[Sunni Man]

Am I the only one astounded that someone with the intelligence to qualify as a doctor (if in fact this is true) can be attracted to someone professing sunni man's views?
Why?

There are Muslim women all over the world who are both M.D.'s , lawyers, bankers, etc. And are also highly religious and follow the teachings of Islam.

[Sunni Man]

My devoutly Muslim Algerian friend
You say that she is devout.

Does she cover her hair with a scarf? Fast on Ramadan? Pray 5 times a day? Doesn't eat pork?

If she observes these things, than she is a truely devout Muslim.

Otherwise, she is Muslim in name only.

[Pardalis]

Does she cover her hair with a scarf? Fast on Ramadan? Pray 5 times a day? Doesn't eat pork?

You know, if religion didn't have this made-up aura of respect to it that makes it "wrong" to criticize it, the description you just made would fit the symptoms of a mental disorder in any other context.

[kerikiwi]

GreyICE you are the First person I have ever put on ignore. Bye

I think I am the second!

[Sunni Man]

I think I am the second!No, not yet!!

[kerikiwi]

No, not yet!!

But you' ve been studiously ignoring the things I have been asking you...

[Sunni Man]

I also think you live under a bridge.How do you expect me to respond to statements like this?

[kerikiwi]

How do you expect me to respond to statements like this?

The same way you have responded to the questions I have repeatedly asked you.

[Sunni Man]

The same way you have responded to the questions I have repeatedly asked you.O.K. No I don't live under a bridge.

[kerikiwi]

O.K. No I don't live under a bridge.

Um, you were meant to ignore it, as you have the questions I have asked you.

[Morrigan]

She would scoff at you because it's ridiculous to expect a woman to never speak to non-relative men. She listens to heavy metal and chats with men on secular forums and chatrooms all the time and she's no less a Muslim because you say so.
You say that she is devout.

Does she cover her hair with a scarf?

No.

Fast on Ramadan? Pray 5 times a day? Doesn't eat pork?

Yes, yes, yes.


If she observes these things, than she is a truely devout Muslim.

Otherwise, she is Muslim in name only.
No True Scotsman fallacy.

Say, why is pre-marital sex immoral again? Other than "because I say so", that is.

[Silentknight]

Basically, this is a mixed forum. Meaning there are both men and women posting here. She would never dialogue on a mixed forum.

An Islamic woman doesn't talk or dialogue with non relative men.

I don't have tell her No, because she knows what is proper and improper within the religion.
Please cite the specific law you are referring to, and explain why it should still apply today. If it's okay for you, an Islamic man, to speak with strangers online, but it's not okay for your wife just because she's a woman, then your previous claims about gender equality were lies. Besides, I'm sure you're aware that this forum is part of an educational foundation, and it's regulated with the intent of being suitable for children to read if they so choose. Are you admitting to keeping your wife on a tighter rein than one would keep a child? Is that how you truly regard her?
You say that she is devout.

Does she cover her hair with a scarf? Fast on Ramadan? Pray 5 times a day? Doesn't eat pork?

If she observes these things, than she is a truely devout Muslim.

Otherwise, she is Muslim in name only.
Yeah, I'll bet putting sugar on her porridge would disqualify her from being a devout Muslim too. :rolleyes:

[Sunni Man]

Yeah, I'll bet putting sugar on her porridge would disqualify her from being a devout Muslim too. :rolleyes:
Why would that be:confused:

[Sunni Man]

She would scoff at you because it's ridiculous to expect a woman to never speak to non-relative men. She listens to heavy metal and chats with men on secular forums and chatrooms all the timeEven though she doesn't cover her hair, but does the rest, she can be considered a Muslim.

I seriously doubt that she is married?

[FireGarden]

You say that she is devout.

Does she cover her hair with a scarf? Fast on Ramadan? Pray 5 times a day? Doesn't eat pork?

If she observes these things, than she is a truely devout Muslim.

Otherwise, she is Muslim in name only.

What is your opinion on takfir?

[mrbaracuda]

No.

Does she cover her hair when she prays though?

[Morrigan]

Even though she doesn't cover her hair, but does the rest, she can be considered a Muslim.

I seriously doubt that she is married?
She is still single. Why does that matter?

Does she cover her hair when she prays though?
I don't know. Why is that significant?

[Sunni Man]

What is your opinion on takfir?
I subscribe to the orthodox Sunni position is that sins do not in general prove that someone is not a Muslim, but that denials of fundamental religious principles do; thus a murderer, for instance, may still be a Muslim, but someone who denies that murder is a sin must be a kafir

[Sunni Man]

She is still single. Why does that matter?


I don't know. Why is that significant?If she was married. Talking to a men who was not her husband would be a serious matter.

Many Muslim women don't wear the head scarf in public.

But when praying or attending services at the Mosque, it is mandatory.

[Pardalis]

If she was married. Talking to a men who was not her husband would be a serious matter.

Just talking to other men is a sin?

[FireGarden]

I subscribe to the orthodox Sunni position is that sins do not in general prove that someone is not a Muslim, but that denials of fundamental religious principles do; thus a murderer, for instance, may still be a Muslim, but someone who denies that murder is a sin must be a kafir

Strangely similar to what wiki has to say, made more suspicious by an "is that" error of pasting/grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

The orthodox Sunni position is that sins do not in general prove that someone is not a Muslim, but that denials of fundamental religious principles do; thus a murderer, for instance, may still be a Muslim, but someone who denies that murder is a sin must be a kafir, as long as he is aware that murder is a sin in Islam.

[kerikiwi]

Strangely similar to what wiki has to say, made more suspicious by an "is that" error of pasting/grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

You'd think sunniman would tire of this game, wouldn't you?