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Roboramma
24th July 2008, 05:21 PM
So I was watching this video the other day:
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See also here: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of_crows.html

And it got me thinking - he says that crow brain-body mass ratio is the same as chimpanzees. (I'm not sure if this is calculated as a simple ratio or in some other way...)

What I was wondering about was, if we put a lot of resources into it, could we genetically engineer/breed crows to be more and more intelligent to the point of approaching human intelligence?
Could this be done faster than building such intelligence from the bottom-up by way of artificial intelligence via computers?

I know these are quite speculative questions. Actually, I think the answer (especially to the second question) is no.

But as we learn more about our own intelligence, and the influences of particular genes, some of those might work if simply put directly into the crow genome. More primitive artificial selection methods might also work.

The reason for this isn't simply to create really smart crows, though that would be cool, but because I think that we could learn a lot from them.

In particular, if they could develop a language as complex as ours, we could communicate with them, and they could directly tell us about the experiences of another sentient being.
We could use them as an alternative to either a manned or robotic space program (they're smaller than us, and probably easier to keep alive between planets).
I'm sure there are lots of jobs that they could do better than humans, so they'd represent a major new economic resource.

It doesn't even require that they have human-level intelligence, just complex-langauge and a reasoning ability at a level that we could "do business" with them.

Okay, so this is mostly just a silly idea - mainly I wanted to share the video with everyone, but I also like silly speculations and am interested what people think would be the problems with implementation and the repercussions if it were successful. :)

Earthborn
24th July 2008, 05:35 PM
What I was wondering about was, if we put a lot of resources into it, could we genetically engineer/breed crows to be more and more intelligent to the point of approaching human intelligence?If you want to do that, it would be useful to have a working definition of "intelligence" that would tell us whether something or someone had something "approaching human intelligence"

We could use them as an alternative to either a manned or robotic space program (they're smaller than us, and probably easier to keep alive between planets).It would certainly be useful to have something with the smarts of a crow (or even ant) instead of the robots we have now, but there is a very good reason why we send robots and not organisms; even if they are easier to keep alive than humans, they are still very difficult to keep alive and their life support would require much bigger and heavier spacecraft.

XBoxWarrior
24th July 2008, 06:29 PM
I had a pet crow as a kid...his name was Jerome. He was pretty good at eating scrap meat like rotten hamburger.

Jerome lived about 9 months in that outside avery, then I let him free.

My dad was pissed I let him go.

Jerome was most happy free.

Birds should just be birds...they are really good @ it!

bruto
24th July 2008, 10:29 PM
If you want to talk to the animals, go to the zoo.

When people talk about breeding intelligent critters like this, what they are thinking of is a smart servant or some kind of meat robot. But what would a smart crow actually use its intelligence for? Picking up our dirty laundry? Defusing our bombs? Sharing a peace pipe and grooving about the oneness of nature? Any crow smart enough to be an economic resource is smart enough to know that our economy is not theirs. Smart crows will put their intelligence into making the world maximally suited to crows, and then into making more crows to fill it. That goal is not likely to be achieved by serving us, but by killing us, eating our flesh, and using the leftovers to fertilize their corn.

We might start out by considering why an assemblage of those birds is traditionally called a "murder of crows." They're already too much like us for our own good.

paximperium
24th July 2008, 10:35 PM
I for one welcome our Crow overlords...alright maybe not.

bellonax
25th July 2008, 04:15 AM
Why would we want to genetically engineer crows? Has no one here seen The Birds??!

I'd like to keep my eyes, thankyouverymuch.

Rob Lister
25th July 2008, 09:28 AM
If you want to do that, it would be useful to have a working definition of "intelligence" that would tell us whether something or someone had something "approaching human intelligence"



I agree, and more to the point, how do we define the bolded section?

I also agree that crows are pretty damn smart/clever/intelligent/yada (no good word to use). Then again, scarecrows really do work (kinda), so that sez something...then again, I've been scared by empty cop cars on the freeway.

I think parrots are more s/c/i/y than crows, and they are less mean...I think...maybe....(with many definitions of mean possible).

Gagglegnash
25th July 2008, 09:38 AM
Hi

Yes. Absolutely!

We really need a much smarter animal stalking our small shiny objects and momentarily ignored picnic sandwiches.

I knew a girl that had three crows. You couldn't put anything down because any abandoned thingy, having recently been the object of human attention, instantly became the playing-piece in a game of Hide-the-Thingy-Crows-Rule-Humans-LOSE!

Ah, well - at least it was never boring.

Ziggurat
25th July 2008, 09:45 AM
I for one welcome our Crow overlords...alright maybe not.

Do not awaken the deep (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/10/10/) crow (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/3/21/).

soylent
25th July 2008, 09:59 PM
Do not awaken the deep (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/10/10/) crow (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/3/21/).

Are you sure (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/21/)?

Ziggurat
25th July 2008, 11:04 PM
Are you sure (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/21/)?

Few have the skill (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/19/) to tame such beasts.

Kuko 4000
26th July 2008, 01:57 AM
I think the idea of teaching crows to pick up garbage is a good one, nice vid, thanks :)