Religious indoctrination in kindy (preschool)

[Gib]

In Australia, we call pre-school "Kindergarten" (or "Kindy" for short).

So, my nephew apparently just came home from Kindy, and was sad that God send Jesus to earth to die.

Can anyone direct me to more information about what the laws are in Australia about teachers indoctrinating children in Kindergarten ?

His parents are going to complain to the teacher, but I want to know what their rights are in this regard.. Can they ask for her to be fired? (Not that they would on the first offense.)

[Kevin_Lowe]

I suspect that the angle to pursue is not "This is the law!" but "Is this school policy?".

I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if it was illegal as such to preach to kids in kindy, but I'd be (unpleasantly) surprised if the school or the state did not have an explicit policy against it unless it was part of an approved religious education class.

[Darat]

From what you've posted I couldn't conclude anything so I would first of all try to find out exactly what has happened before even thinking about any other kind of action.

[Gib]

Darat,

Yes, I'm going to leave the action up to my sister and brother-in-law, who know the most about the situation, but I want to give them as much information as possible with regards to the law, and policy and recommended course of action.

Yes Kevin, you're right, I'll try to find out more about the Kindy's policies.

[Gib]

I just found out that it's a Catholic School!!!!

I've sent a curt letter to my sister asking her what she thought was going to happen when sending her kid to such a school... I've no idea why they were surprised.

Does anyone know any good info I can send her about how to immunise him against the brainwashing while still sending him to that school ?

[Darat]

Damn that was sneaky of those rotten Catholics, saying their school was a Catholic school and then trying to sneak in their religious ideas. How dare they! :D

[drkitten]

Damn that was sneaky of those rotten Catholics, saying their school was a Catholic school and then trying to sneak in their religious ideas. How dare they! :D

To be fair, I've known some schools that (deceptively) try to hide their religious affiliation until the tuition check clears. Scientology is notorious for that practice, of course,.... but it's also becoming more and more prevalent in the States in an effort to "sneak" into a community.

I think there's a big difference between sending your children to "Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt" and "The Secular Humanist Montessori Academy", even though, legally speaking, the difference is simply what they typed at the top of the incorporation papers.

[Gib]

Yes, I certainly think there are schools which deceptively teach religion when they shouldn't, but in this case I made the mistake of trusting the righteous anger of my brother in law, instead of being skeptical about which school they sent my nephew to.

I assumed that anyone sending their kid to a religious school wouldn't be too surprised when the kid was told about that whole Jesus thing. I'd rather be too optomistic than pessimistic though.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Does anyone know any good info I can send her about how to immunise him against the brainwashing while still sending him to that school ?

Just tell him "Some people believe this stuff, but it's actually all made up. There is no God, Jesus is fictional, and the whole Noah business is very, very silly. Just don't tell them, they'll get offended. The polite thing to do is just shut up".

That's more or less what my parents told me when we had religious education classes in my early school years.

[Gib]

Kevin, that's nearly exactly the message I just sent to them. The other two options I gave them were to pull him from school altogether, or to revoke my godfather status. Yeah, I'm the godfather. I still feel dirty.

[shadron]

I'd advise them to just start teaching science to him. Elementary astronomy (with nights out in the dark), geology while on a Sunday drive, biology in the back yard. The occasional space news over the table at dinner. Not from a book, necessarily, though there has to be some of that, but rather that there are people who make a living from studying things, and vast enjoyment and satisfaction can come from that. I date my interest in science to a first grade teacher who taught us about the earth and the sun, and why the stars came out at night. After the second grade there was no more science until high school as I started in a Catholic school, but I'd had enough to ignite the interest. Noah's ark can't stand up to that, as long as the parents are supportive and not religious themselves.

[shadron]

To be fair, I've known some schools that (deceptively) try to hide their religious affiliation until the tuition check clears. Scientology is notorious for that practice, of course,.... but it's also becoming more and more prevalent in the States in an effort to "sneak" into a community.

I think there's a big difference between sending your children to "Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt" and "The Secular Humanist Montessori Academy", even though, legally speaking, the difference is simply what they typed at the top of the incorporation papers.

I don't really think a Catholic school would hide it; it would be very unlike every experience I've had with them (which is considerable). They would b more apt to flaunt it. Scientology I could believe.

[Gib]

shadron, yes, I you're right they should teach science. Unfortunatly neither parent is particularly knowledgeable, and I'm in a different country.

I'll ponder what I can do.

[lionking]

Don't know what to make of this, but this research shows infants are "hard-wired" to believe in god. I can just religious schools jumping all over this and saying "we are not indroctinating children, just re-inforcing something natural". Sheesh.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/infants-have-natural-belief-in-god-20080725-3l3b.html

[Darat]

To be fair, I've known some schools that (deceptively) try to hide their religious affiliation until the tuition check clears. Scientology is notorious for that practice, of course,.... but it's also becoming more and more prevalent in the States in an effort to "sneak" into a community.

I think there's a big difference between sending your children to "Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt" and "The Secular Humanist Montessori Academy", even though, legally speaking, the difference is simply what they typed at the top of the incorporation papers.

It's happened a little bit in the UK a as well. There is a new type of school called an "academy school" and at least a couple of them have been found to be sneaking in their founders' religious beliefs via the back door (such as creationism (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/may/12/religion.schools)).

[lionking]

We have a system in Australia where every school regardless of it's religious affialition gets taxpayer funding. So catholic, islamic, steiner, fundamentalist etc schools are in the mix. So much for our constitution which mandates free and secular education. Our lily-livered Labor government says this is all about choice. Absolutely crap.

[Darat]

Pretty much the same over here.

[Jeff Corey]

Don't know what to make of this, but this research shows infants are "hard-wired" to believe in god. I can just religious schools jumping all over this and saying "we are not indroctinating children, just re-inforcing something natural". Sheesh.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/infants-have-natural-belief-in-god-20080725-3l3b.html

I don't see any research at that link and I'm skeptical.

[Nogbad]

It's happened a little bit in the UK a as well. There is a new type of school called an "academy school" and at least a couple of them have been found to be sneaking in their founders' religious beliefs via the back door (such as creationism (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/may/12/religion.schools)).

and as I wouldn't buy a used car from that man I would be unlikely to send my kids to his school.

Actually our local State school is a good school despite the headmaster being a happy clappy control freak. My daughter told him she was a witch - this did cause ructions but we didn't rise to it - just said "yes sweet isn't it" :whistling He didn't cope hugely well but it was fun watching him try. Equality and diversity laws FTW

[Baby Nemesis]

Kevin, that's nearly exactly the message I just sent to them. The other two options I gave them were to pull him from school altogether, or to revoke my godfather status. Yeah, I'm the godfather. I still feel dirty.

Wow, I never knew this kind of thing happened before. So we have militancy on both sides - one group wanting to pull their kids out of schools because they teach the earth is a lot older than they think it is and that humans evolved by natural means without God, and an equally militant opposite group wanting to pull kids out of school because the teachers say God exists and Jesus died for people. Why can't both groups leave the kids alone to make up their own minds, just giving them pointers along the way, so long as what they're being taught isn't actually harmful? I mean, if parents believe they have a strong case, why not be confident enough to believe they can reason with their children at some point and bring them around to their way of thinking, rather than trying to control what they believe by doing something as drastic as pulling them out of school?

And surely being too controlling in a case like this could be harmful. I mean, for instance, instead of telling this kid that what he's being taught is just nonsense, which might lead him to disrespect his teacher - and after all, at kindergarten, wouldn't the teacher telling them about Jesus actually be the one the kids spend the whole of the time they're there with, rather than just a teacher who comes in for forty minutes or so once a week and then leaves so they're easier to disregard - wouldn't it be better to just say that some people sincerely think it's true but the family personally don't and they think they have good reasons not to believe it, but there's some debate about it, or something? I mean, for one thing, if the kid's being asked to do things by a teacher who tells him things his parents say are nonsense, isn't it possible he might get anxious about being told what to do by someone he feels he can't trust? Surely that could be quite worrying for him. I mean, a kid that small might not be able to distinguish the truth of that kind of instruction from the truth of being told not to put your hand on the radiator because it's hot and might burn you, or that kind of thing. If they feel they can't trust the person giving the instruction, isn't there a possibility that it could lead to A. timidity because the kid doesn't know what to believe because they can't trust the one in authority over them, or B. a failure to take anything they say seriously which could lead to them putting themselves in harm's way or being disruptive?

Or what if the parents pulled the kid out of school and told them they were being taught nonsense, but then at a later date, the kid made a friend who believed that stuff who was really persuasive? It might be worse if the kid's trust in his parents was shaken.

So it seems to me that it would be better to give the kid a softer message, one that'll at least leave the kid still respecting their teacher.

[lionking]

I don't see any research at that link and I'm skeptical.
Yeah so am I, but the Oxford reference was impressive.

[Jeff Corey]

Yeah so am I, but the Oxford reference was impressive.

Dr. Petrovich's faculty profile in the Department of Theology lists no publications.

[shadron]

Why can't both groups leave the kids alone to make up their own minds, just giving them pointers along the way, so long as what they're being taught isn't actually harmful? I mean, if parents believe they have a strong case, why not be confident enough to believe they can reason with their children at some point and bring them around to their way of thinking, rather than trying to control what they believe by doing something as drastic as pulling them out of school?

That works fine for me and you, but if you really believe in christianity then you have to believe that the devil is out here working the "ruin of souls" routine all the time, and you have to - *must* - counter it all the time. Not only is it something you want to do to sooth your own conservative soul, but you are simply commanded to do it - you have no choice. You must actively counter the devil; you are apostate if you don't, and besides he will steal your children from you if you don't.

Of course, for those of us outside that system, that seems to be a self-serving lie, where "self" means the church. Churches can't leave well enough alone and expect to grow in power and influence, which is the ultimate goal. Like smoking, you have to get them while they're young and get them hooked.

[Baby Nemesis]

Oh, so you're saying that some people start thinking the devil is such a strong force/being that they have to take the strongest measures they can to counteract him so the measures they take are as proportionate as they can be, so they think they need to actively control their children's lives rather than just discussing their point of view with them and hoping for the best, since they think that just talking to them might be too weak a response to stand up against him?

So are there churches that warn people that they have to do things like take their kids out of school if the schools teach things they consider to be unbiblical or the devil will get their children?

[Gib]

Baby Nemesis, you talk a lot of sense in your second last comment (not that I'm nocking your last one!)

I agree that neither side should be forcing their opinions on the kids.

Navigating the waters at present though, where the kid is in a Christian school, and is therefore being forced an opinion, is where I get worried about the correct course of action.

I think I'm just going to go the route of the fun, sensible and knowledgeable uncle, who is there to talk about anything. I'm planning magic as my "in". He's already seen a few tricks and thinks I'm something special :)

[perceval]

Actually, these days, Catholics are rather good at acknowledging / teaching science. I got a very solid foundation in science at my Catholic primary school, sex ed started when we were seven or eight, and my religious instruction later on involved a historical/critical approach to the bible. Try being a YEC when you're taught that Genesis was written by several groups of people that had different agendas and were clearly writing at different times. We also discussed the agendas and backgrounds of the four evangelists, the source materials they may have used, and so on and so forth. All of this was - gulp! - sanctioned by and sponsored by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'd be careful of any knee-jerk Catholic = fundie = OMG responses. The fun uncle strategy sounds good.

[fuelair]

Oh, so you're saying that some people start thinking the devil is such a strong force/being that they have to take the strongest measures they can to counteract him so the measures they take are as proportionate as they can be, so they think they need to actively control their children's lives rather than just discussing their point of view with them and hoping for the best, since they think that just talking to them might be too weak a response to stand up against him?

So are there churches that warn people that they have to do things like take their kids out of school if the schools teach things they consider to be unbiblical or the devil will get their children?
I do you the honor of assuming you are either being sarcastic or are actually unaware that your last sentence is quite true - it is one - though not the only - reason for home schooling. There are lot's of them. Examples pop up here and in/on the news fairly regularly.

[shadron]

Oh, so you're saying that some people start thinking the devil is such a strong force/being that they have to take the strongest measures they can to counteract him so the measures they take are as proportionate as they can be, so they think they need to actively control their children's lives rather than just discussing their point of view with them and hoping for the best, since they think that just talking to them might be too weak a response to stand up against him?

So are there churches that warn people that they have to do things like take their kids out of school if the schools teach things they consider to be unbiblical or the devil will get their children?

Yes and yes. That is exactly how the fundamentalist, evangelical churchgoers think of it. The churches emphasize a philosophy of life in which good battles evil (one of the reasons that Bush resonates so well with these people, when he denounces the "axis of evil". David Frum, Bush's speechwriter, almost broke an arm patting himself on the back over that one) and that every person is either with good or with evil - no middle road, no compromise, no wishy-washiness. You give your children "every advantage" you can muster, even if that mucks with their freedom as humans. What is important in the long run? Some silly freedoms here on earth, or their (and your - you're their stewards, after all) immortal souls?

And yes to the last. The Catholic parochial school system (when I was that age it had 40 elementary and 12 high schools in the Denver area alone) exists for that very reason. Tens of thousands of evangelicals homeschool to keep their kids away from bad influences (both evil teachings and bad companions).

[Damien Evans]

Actually, these days, Catholics are rather good at acknowledging / teaching science. I got a very solid foundation in science at my Catholic primary school, sex ed started when we were seven or eight, and my religious instruction later on involved a historical/critical approach to the bible. Try being a YEC when you're taught that Genesis was written by several groups of people that had different agendas and were clearly writing at different times. We also discussed the agendas and backgrounds of the four evangelists, the source materials they may have used, and so on and so forth. All of this was - gulp! - sanctioned by and sponsored by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'd be careful of any knee-jerk Catholic = fundie = OMG responses. The fun uncle strategy sounds good.

Beat me to it.

[Gib]

Yeah, actually I went to Catholic school too, and turned out alright, doing quite well in science (although I didn't do biology which I regret).

The Christianity teachings did stuff me up a bit though, and I can see it happening to my nephew now and would like to make it easy on him if I could...

[Baby Nemesis]

I do you the honor of assuming you are either being sarcastic or are actually unaware that your last sentence is quite true - it is one - though not the only - reason for home schooling. There are lot's of them. Examples pop up here and in/on the news fairly regularly.

Oh, I didn't know churches did that - I was raised going to Catholic churches, and the only noteworthy feature of most of the sermons throughout that entire time was that they were so dull it was impossible to learn anything about Christianity or anything else from them whatsoever, and I can't imagine any of the priests ever feeling strongly enough about anything at all to be insistent about where people ought to school their children. Maybe things are different in America - do you get militant Catholics there? I've never known anyone here of any religion who would say kids ought to be pulled out of school because they're being taught something they don't agree with. Or is it just the Fundamentalist Protestant-type churches that are like that there? Or are there any Catholic Churches that fit into the category of Fundamentalists too? Or is it just people like the Southern Baptists who have the reputation for being like that? Or are there different sects of Baptists there so some have more extreme opinions than others?

I've never heard about anyone doing home-schooling in the modern day here either, apart from when children have been expelled from ordinary school. Is it an American thing?

[lionking]

Actually, these days, Catholics are rather good at acknowledging / teaching science. I got a very solid foundation in science at my Catholic primary school, sex ed started when we were seven or eight, and my religious instruction later on involved a historical/critical approach to the bible. Try being a YEC when you're taught that Genesis was written by several groups of people that had different agendas and were clearly writing at different times. We also discussed the agendas and backgrounds of the four evangelists, the source materials they may have used, and so on and so forth. All of this was - gulp! - sanctioned by and sponsored by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'd be careful of any knee-jerk Catholic = fundie = OMG responses. The fun uncle strategy sounds good.
Welcome to the forum perceval. I'm pleased to hear this, because my catholic primary school education (in the 60s) was anything but your experience. Boys were encouraged to become altar boys (and I was one)and religious education predominated everything.

[Kiosk]

Don't know about Australia, but here in England so many (of the better) schools are nominally "Catholic" or "Church Of England" that learning about Mr Christ is an accepted part of growing up. The good thing is, these days the teaching is so wishy-washy and so utterly un-Bible Belt that by the age of about 12, most kids just see it as part of the pomposity of school, like silence in assembly or calling people "sir", and instinctively begin to rebel against it.

Even in these "religious" schools, it's generally considered unacceptable to use fundie tactics, like instilling fear of hell to hook 'em when they're young. There's also very little societal pressure to be a Christian here (quite the reverse in fact, being a Christian in your teens is like getting "I AM A NERD" tattooed on your forehead). As a result, for most English kids, religion just means boring prayers, tuneless hymns, draughty chapels, having to be quiet, miserable stories you can't relate to, godawful TV shows like "Songs Of Praise", old people with no sense of humour taking themselves far too seriously. It's something terribly remote. It strikes many Americans as odd that on one hand, we have prayer in schools, while on the other, we have one of the most secular societies in the world. If you'd been to a C of E school, it wouldn't seem so strange.

[perceval]

Yeah, actually I went to Catholic school too, and turned out alright, doing quite well in science (although I didn't do biology which I regret).

The Christianity teachings did stuff me up a bit though, and I can see it happening to my nephew now and would like to make it easy on him if I could...

I completely understand that you want to avoid this. The trick is to use mainstream Catholic theology and some Protestant theology "against them", if you wish. I am not sure of the exact doctrine these days, but it's safe to say that the Bible was written by PEOPLE who were (not, you may wish to add) divinely inspired. Once we're on the level of stories people tell about God, the whole thing is a lot less terrifying. The next step is to look at the work of people such as the Jesus Seminar, who have assessed how genuine the reported words and deeds of Jesus are. You can choose to emphasise those aspects of Christianity which aren't oppressive, such as the sermon on the mount. Incidentally, these are also most likely to be authentic. (If Jesus could see what they've done to his message, he would have a heart attack.) When the kid's older, you could introduce the methodology of the Jesus seminar or give him a book by Geza Vermes. Or talk casually about the story of Mithras. By the time you're done, the kid should be "vaccinated" against the worst excesses.

Lionking, I went to school in the 80's in Germany - probably a far less repressive environment than yours twenty years earlier. Catholic primary school, followed by Catholic religious studies at high school level. We used to watch Life of Brian in religious studies before the summer holidays - ah, the memories! As you can see, we were firmly post-Vatican II. I only hope that the positive trend has continued into the Noughties.

[Baby Nemesis]

Yes and yes. That is exactly how the fundamentalist, evangelical churchgoers think of it. The churches emphasize a philosophy of life in which good battles evil (one of the reasons that Bush resonates so well with these people, when he denounces the "axis of evil". David Frum, Bush's speechwriter, almost broke an arm patting himself on the back over that one) and that every person is either with good or with evil - no middle road, no compromise, no wishy-washiness. You give your children "every advantage" you can muster, even if that mucks with their freedom as humans. What is important in the long run? Some silly freedoms here on earth, or their (and your - you're their stewards, after all) immortal souls?

And yes to the last. The Catholic parochial school system (when I was that age it had 40 elementary and 12 high schools in the Denver area alone) exists for that very reason. Tens of thousands of evangelicals homeschool to keep their kids away from bad influences (both evil teachings and bad companions).

The stuff about fundamentalists I'v heard here is giving me the creeps.

So is it common for preachers to do sermons about how people outside the church are evil, so children might go to school thinking classmates they might otherwise think of as friends are evil, so it causes discord in schools? Is it common for a similar thing to happen in the workplace?

[humber]

Don't forget Santa Claus. The church is quite happy to allow this heresy, as it serves their purpose to prime developing minds to believe in imaginary beings.

[shadron]

I was educated in catholic schools in the Denver area from 3rd grade through my BS degree. As far as I could tell it was pretty much the same k-12 as the public schools, except that we had a one hour religion class every day through high school, and then I had to take 9 semhours of theology anyway. Science wasn't de-emphasized, it just wasn't in the curriculum until high school; I self-taught on that. In high school, it was essentially the same classes as public school.

Only two other things I noticed: they were very finicky about boys and girls together - playgrounds separated, classes separated (girls left and boys right), and we almost got kicked out in 7th grade for having a chaperoned mixed party at my neighbor's house. The other thing was that the school tripled in size when Glenn Martin built a rocket ship factory outside our town, and I don't think many of the incoming Catholic engineers wanted to hear anything about "not teaching science or math".

[UnrepentantSinner]

Kevin, that's nearly exactly the message I just sent to them. The other two options I gave them were to pull him from school altogether, or to revoke my godfather status. Yeah, I'm the godfather. I still feel dirty.

Shouldn't that be nogodfather? ;)

[Gib]

Shouldn't that be nogodfather?

Well, when I say it, I slur my words and actually pronounce it "dogfather", but hardly anyone notices...

I went to the ceremony for this kid, without thinking much about it until I was being asked by the priest whether I would bring him up as a Catholic. I couldn't back out then, so had to lie. I'm also the godfather of their second kid, but I wasn't there for the ceremony, and had a proxy...

Now, their third kid..... I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Not that my feelings are a secret from my family at all, it just doesn't feel right.

[aggle-rithm]

I was educated in catholic schools in the Denver area from 3rd grade through my BS degree. As far as I could tell it was pretty much the same k-12 as the public schools, except that we had a one hour religion class every day through high school, and then I had to take 9 semhours of theology anyway. Science wasn't de-emphasized, it just wasn't in the curriculum until high school; I self-taught on that. In high school, it was essentially the same classes as public school.


The Catholic school I went to in Texas not only taught science, but it actually introduced some skepticism into the religious training, although probably not intentionally. I remember being taught that the "parting" of the Red Sea was very likely a natural phenomenon, and that was the way God intervened in human affairs--through natural means.

At the time, I didn't want to hear that, for it lead to some very disturbing thoughts about whether there actually was some conscious intent behind these natural phenomena. I much rather would have heard, "It was a miracle! Goddidit!"

[aggle-rithm]

A friend of a friend sent her young daughter (6 years old) to a fundy school some years ago. She thought everything was going fine, until one day, when she was helping her in the bath, she noticed her daughter had a nosebleed. She quickly got a towel to stop the bleeding, and asked why the girl didn't say anything. She sighed heavily and said, "I just want to suffer, like Jesus."

Out of the fundy school she went...

[Baby Nemesis]

Yikes! I wonder what they said to her to make her start thinking that kind of thing.

I grew up in a fairly similar atmosphere to the one described in Kiosk's post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3896531&postcount=33), coming from the same country. I've never encountered the militancy that people are saying goes on in America in some Christian circles. I've been quite shocked by some of the things I've heard here. ... Yeah, I'm a delicate little flower really, clearly. :)

BTW, Shadron, what is a BS degree? :D ... Oh, I've just thought, could you mean Bible studies? Or something else?

[shadron]

Yikes! I wonder what they said to her to make her start thinking that kind of thing.

I grew up in a fairly similar atmosphere to the one described in Kiosk's post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3896531&postcount=33), coming from the same country. I've never encountered the militancy that people are saying goes on in America in some Christian circles. I've been quite shocked by some of the things I've heard here. ... Yeah, I'm a delicate little flower really, clearly. :)

BTW, Shadron, what is a BS degree? :D ... Oh, I've just thought, could you mean Bible studies? Or something else?

Ermmm...*giggle*...Bachelor of Science. That and Bachelor of Arts are the two most common undergrad degrees from four year colleges in the US.

[Baby Nemesis]

Oh. They are here too, but we call a Bachellor of Science a BSc. I wondered if you might mean that though.

[shadron]

Oh. They are here too, but we call a Bachellor of Science a BSc. I wondered if you might mean that though.

I've seen BSc, but it almost always is referred to here as a "BS" (noun), matching it's sister term BA. No conscious irony meant, I assure you. Unconscious, well, you'd have to ask someone else...