"Oxygen-starved" fire? Explain the jumpers.

[Allen773]

I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense. How come 200-300 people jumped from them, Troofers? The out-of-context usage of Orio Palmer's words, a man who can't defend himself, is also sickening.

[WildCat]

Allen there's a branch of the truth movement that denies that airplanes hit the WTC towers. You have to remember to keep the stupidity in perspective when dealing with truthers. ;)

[twinstead]

Allen there's a branch of the truth movement that denies that airplanes hit the WTC towers. You have to remember to keep the stupidity in perspective when dealing with truthers. ;)

Oh ain't THAT the truth

[OldTigerCub]

I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense. How come 200-300 people jumped from them, Troofers? The out-of-context usage of Orio Palmer's words, a man who can't defend himself, is also sickening.

If there is a situation that requires a stupid or impossible explanation, there is undoubtedly a twoofer somewhere who has come up with just that.:p

By the way, Allen, was there a particular article, event, thread, blog post...etc. that you read and are commenting on? It's always good to post a link to the subject at hand. It makes for livelier and more informed responses from other members.;)

[Allen773]

Here's an article:

No Prior Collapse Induced by Fire

The official theory is rendered implausible by two major problems. The first is the simple fact that fire has never---prior to or after 9/11---caused steel-frame high-rise buildings to collapse. Defenders of the official story seldom if ever mention this simple fact. Indeed, the supposedly definitive report put out by NIST---the National Institute for Standards and Technology (2005)---even implies that fire-induced collapses of large steel-frame buildings are normal events (Hoffman, 2005).[4] Far from being normal, however, such collapses have never occurred, except for the alleged cases of 9/11.


Edited for Rule 4 breach. Source previously uncited is this:
http://911controlleddemolition.blogspot.com/2006/02/official-account-cannot-be-true.htmlIt's by David Ray Griffin. What a liar he really is. How could a respected philosopher be this stupid?

[Tweeter]

Probably because of this..
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_woman.html

[OldTigerCub]

Hehe. Well, if one wants to know about theology, Griffin might be an authority. When it comes to engineering...let's just say that DRG approaches engineering from a "faith based" point of view.
(before you get a mod warning, you might want to cut your post down to a paragraph or 2 and post a link. I believe it's a Rule 4 thing.) ;)

[Allen773]

Probably because of this..
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_woman.html
So, one woman surviving out of about 400 people in the impact zone is indicative of the fires being oxygen-starved?

[WildCat]

So, one woman surviving out of about 400 people in the impact zone is indicative of the fires being oxygen-starved?
I think Tweeter is claiming that the fires where the woman is standing weren't hot enough to heat the columns which were CUT CLEAN THROUGH to the point of failure. :boggled:

[Tweeter]

So, one woman surviving out of about 400 people in the impact zone is indicative of the fires being oxygen-starved?

Allen , Allen , Allen.... You said in your Op ""I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense."
I was just showing you an example of why they think that.
And for the record she did die.

[Quad4_72]

Allen , Allen , Allen.... You said in your Op ""I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense."
I was just showing you an example of why they think that.
And for the record she did die.

So are you saying that you DO think the fires were extremely intense?

[Allen773]

Allen , Allen , Allen.... You said in your Op ""I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense."
I was just showing you an example of why they think that.
And for the record she did die.
I've read your posts before, Tweeter. I'm aware of where you stand on the subject of 9/11.

And yes, I know she died. Stop exploiting her death for whatever pathetic political goal you have.

[Tweeter]

Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
So, one woman surviving out of about 400 people in the impact zone is indicative of the fires being oxygen-starved?

WTF

[Allen773]

Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
So, one woman surviving out of about 400 people in the impact zone is indicative of the fires being oxygen-starved?

WTF
I'm talking about the impact zone. And yes, there were a few other survivors besides her in the impact zone, but that was merely a fluke. The plane and exploding fuel missed them.

Oh, and I'm well aware that hundreds of people above and below the impact zones survived the plane crashes, but were trapped and died later.

[Allen773]

Allen there's a branch of the truth movement that denies that airplanes hit the WTC towers. You have to remember to keep the stupidity in perspective when dealing with truthers. ;)
True, but I see these allegations about the fires made all the time.

In contrast, I would be quite surprised if there were more than a few dozen sincere no-planers on the planet. But, mental illnesses are common...

[WildCat]

I'm talking about the impact zone. And yes, there were a few other survivors besides her in the impact zone, but that was merely a fluke. The plane and exploding fuel missed them.

Oh, and I'm well aware that hundreds of people above and below the impact zones survived the plane crashes, but were trapped and died later.
That woman was edna Cintron, she worked on the 97th floor. She made her way to the the 94th but could go no further beause of the FREAKING FIRES.

[geni]

If you consider smoke inhalation issues fires don't have to be that intense to get people jumping.

[Allen773]

If you consider smoke inhalation issues fires don't have to be that intense to get people jumping.
Then people could just move down, in the opposite direction of the smoke. But they were moving TOWARDS the fires-which, incidentally, continued to burn up to the point of collapse (and even afterwords for weeks after in the ruins of the WTC).

[Allen773]

That woman was edna Cintron, she worked on the 97th floor. She made her way to the the 94th but could go no further beause of the FREAKING FIRES.
That post was directed at Tweeter, right? I wasn't too clear about it.

[OldTigerCub]

That woman was edna Cintron, she worked on the 97th floor. She made her way to the the 94th but could go no further beause of the FREAKING FIRES.

...and she was evidently one that, knowing there was no hope of escape due to the damage and fires, jumped.
Henry62 wrote an article about this that Pat covered at the SLC blog (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2008/06/for-sheila-casey.html).

Warning: The images at Henry62's site are extremely disturbing and not for the faint of heart.

Edit: Note that Henry62's site is Italian, but there is a translated section for some posts and an automatic translator available.

[WildCat]

She jumped after the temp got so hot her clothes started to smoke:

uWTQl42HPKw

But don't let that keep you from your fantasy Tweeter.

[Allen773]

...and she was evidently one that, knowing there was no hope of escape due to the damage and fires, jumped.
Henry62 wrote an article about this that Pat covered at the SLC blog (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2008/06/for-sheila-casey.html).

Warning: The images at Henry62's site are extremely disturbing and not for the faint of heart.

Edit: Note that Henry62's site is Italian, but there is a translated section for some posts and an automatic translator available.
Where is the automatic translator on that page?

[twinstead]

But don't let that keep you from your fantasy Tweeter.

Yea. God forbid THAT happens

[~enigma~]

Probably because of this..
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_woman.html
And there is a picture of her as she jumped. It's disgusting and extremely disrespectful to say she was waving but we all have come to expect that from truthers.

[~enigma~]

I think Tweeter is claiming that the fires where the woman is standing weren't hot enough to heat the columns which were CUT CLEAN THROUGH to the point of failure. :boggled:
Fires were hot enough to make her jump.

[MarkyX]

Allen , Allen , Allen.... You said in your Op ""I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense."
I was just showing you an example of why they think that.
And for the record she did die.

One person out of how many people in the building?

[eeyore1954]

If you consider smoke inhalation issues fires don't have to be that intense to get people jumping.

I agree
the fact that people jumped doesn't prove the fires were intense. Smoke inhaltion and plus the temperatures do not need to be any where near the temperatures that are needed to significantly weaken steel in order for it to be unbearable for humans. Especially if the escape is cut off by fire. there are plenty of other indications that the fires were large and intense.

[OldTigerCub]

Where is the automatic translator on that page?

Click on the "here" at the end of "Automatic Google English Translation can be found here".

Toward the top of the page.

[Turbofan]

I cannot believe that there are people who think that the fires in the WTC weren't intense. How come 200-300 people jumped from them, Troofers? The out-of-context usage of Orio Palmer's words, a man who can't defend himself, is also sickening.

How hot and smoky does it have to be for a person to jump? 1000 degrees?
500 degrees? 100 degrees?

Do you think you could take about 15 minutes of black thick smoke and
200 degrees F?

Is that enough to melt steel?

I guess you all forget about the people standing in the openings, and poking
out the windows in the upper floors too. It must have been real hot above
the crash area to lean on steel, and hang out of windows flagging for help.

If it was really +600'F up there, do you think they'd be able to survive and
wave?

What do you say, can I stick you in a room full of black smoke and ummm...
200 degrees F for 15 minutes.

Do you think you could breathe, or take the heat?

:rolleyes:

[beachnut]

...
I guess you all forget about the people standing in the openings, and poking ...

I guess you are smart. You know some of them jumped when they got cooked too much. How bad do you have to be, not researching the stuff you post or the thread first.
Your failure to know what happen to the victims who are trying to get out of the intense heat is sick.

Making fun of people burning due to your immense lack of knowledge? Your post is pathetic.

How hot and smoky does it have to be for a person to jump? 1000 degrees?
500 degrees? 100 degrees?

Do you think you could take about 15 minutes of black thick smoke and
200 degrees F?

Is that enough to melt steel?

I guess you all forget about the people standing in the openings, and poking
out the windows in the upper floors too. It must have been real hot above
the crash area to lean on steel, and hang out of windows flagging for help.

If it was really +600'F up there, do you think they'd be able to survive and
wave?

What do you say, can I stick you in a room full of black smoke and ummm...
200 degrees F for 15 minutes.

Do you think you could breathe, or take the heat?

Good job being all you are...

[yodaluver28]

How hot and smoky does it have to be for a person to jump? 1000 degrees?
500 degrees? 100 degrees?

Do you think you could take about 15 minutes of black thick smoke and
200 degrees F?

Is that enough to melt steel?

I guess you all forget about the people standing in the openings, and poking
out the windows in the upper floors too. It must have been real hot above
the crash area to lean on steel, and hang out of windows flagging for help.

If it was really +600'F up there, do you think they'd be able to survive and
wave?

What do you say, can I stick you in a room full of black smoke and ummm...
200 degrees F for 15 minutes.

Do you think you could breathe, or take the heat?

:rolleyes:


No steel melted or had to melt and NIST has never suggested that it did. The fires never had to get hot enough to melt any steel. Steel weakens under heat well below it's melting point. The building collapsed when crucial structural members that were in the crash area but not severed by the plane impact and most likely had their fireproofing compromised by the crash, started to weaken under the heat of the fires and could no longer handle the increased weight loads that couldn't be handled by the severed columns and were being transferred to them via the hat truss.

[T.A.M.]

Tornado strikes house, leaves one person standing in completely destroyed home...4 others die.

Sane person: Freaky luck, miracle perhaps.

Truther: That couldn't have been real, I mean how did that one person survive untouched...inside job.

TAM:)

[Par]

Is that enough to melt steel?


Well, would you look at that. It's "fire can't melt steel" again, and from a fan of "turbo" -- the concept, possibly, who knows -- no less.

[T.A.M.]

Why is it that the idiot minds of truthers cannot get around the idea that "areas reached temperatures of 600F Plus" does not mean "The entire WTC was burning at 600F plus"?

Why can't they get it through their big fat stupid skulls?

TAM:)

[Turbofan]

Why is it that the idiot minds of truthers cannot get around the idea that "areas reached temperatures of 600F Plus" does not mean "The entire WTC was burning at 600F plus"?

Why can't they get it through their big fat stupid skulls?

TAM:)


Oh we totally understand that.

Can't you understand that if the other areas (bascially 1000 feet of building) were not anywhere near fatigue temperature, it should not have fallen?

How long do you think a human body could withstand 200'F then?

[chillzero]

I know this is a very emotional topic, and has been presented in an inflammatory manner. Please, however, try to address the topic as calmly and impersonally as possible. Let's keep it civil, and respond only to the points raised - not to the poster(s). I'm removing a few posts where emotion has gotten the better of people - let's keep it calm from here on.

[T.A.M.]

Yes, but mocking victims (which is what I believe enigma feels Turbo was doing with the "wave" comment) is against the human decency rules of civil society. Sometimes taking the yellow card is worth it, and necessary.

TAM:)

[~enigma~]

Oh we totally understand that.

Can't you understand that if the other areas (bascially 1000 feet of building) were not anywhere near fatigue temperature, it should not have fallen?

How long do you think a human body could withstand 200'F then?
Explain what force on earth could have stopped the tower(s) from collapsing after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage. Do you understand the momentum involved or do you think it's a great idea to mimic the rest of the truth intellectual idiots in the truth movement?

[T.A.M.]

Given she was on the edge of the building, I would imagine with the air being drawn into the building, the temperature was quite tolerable where she was. 10 minutes later it might have not been so.

TAM:)

[~enigma~]

This entire line of illogic is extremely disgusting and is akin to Bermass saying Edna Cintron was wearing asbestos chinos. I think anyone who even mentions this idiocy should be immediately sterilized before they reproduce for being so disrespectful.

[Turbofan]

Explain what force on earth could have stopped the tower(s) from collapsing after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage. Do you understand the momentum involved or do you think it's a great idea to mimic the rest of the truth intellectual idiots in the truth movement?

Explain what force (mass) above the towers could have created enough
pressure to squish 1000 feet of tower if the stop frame analysis shows it
was blowing up ABOVE the impact zone?

Again, how long can a human survive in 200 'F heat?

TAM, it must not have been too hot until that point then huh? Maybe 90'F.

What temperature must it have been for the people to start jumping?

[~enigma~]

Explain what force (mass) above the towers could have created enough
pressure to squish 1000 feet of tower if the stop frame analysis shows it
was blowing up ABOVE the impact zone?Asking a question before you answer mine....you know how that is going to turn out or are you really that dumb?

[mrbaracuda]

Obviously the people who jumped were oxygen-starved.

[Grizzly Bear]

Explain what force (mass) above the towers could have created enough
pressure to squish 1000 feet of tower if the stop frame analysis shows it
was blowing up ABOVE the impact zone?

Again, how long can a human survive in 200 'F heat?

TAM, it must not have been too hot until that point then huh? Maybe 90'F.

What temperature must it have been for the people to start jumping?

Oh god this reminds me of the old 1/5 of a building vs 4/5 of a building canard... :covereyes
The north tower had all three stairwells destroyed, which wouldyou prefer? burning, smoke inhalation, or jumping? In that situation I might would have jumped <_<

[Turbofan]

Oh we totally understand that.

Can't you understand that if the other areas (bascially 1000 feet of building) were not anywhere near fatigue temperature, it should not have fallen?

How long do you think a human body could withstand 200'F then?

Explain what force on earth could have stopped the tower(s) from collapsing after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage. Do you understand the momentum involved or do you think it's a great idea to mimic the rest of the truth intellectual idiots in the truth movement?

I see that it's OK for you to dodge my questions which were asked first?

I highlighted those questions in red so that you can finally answer them.

As for your question, it's flawed. The portion of building above the impact
zone was blowing apart and leaving very little mass to push down on the
remainder of the building.

The 47 steel inner core columns, and 230+ outter columns carried the loads
for decades without problem.

Why did that change suddenly on Sept. 11/01?

[T.A.M.]

In that one particular area, an open area 1000 feet above the ground at the edge of the building, I would say at the one spot she was standing in, at that moment in time, 90F or even less is plausible, perhaps likely.

Now 30 feet away from her, inside, a different story.

TAM:)

[Grizzly Bear]

I see that it's OK for you to dodge my questions which were asked first?

I highlighted those questions in red so that you can finally answer them.

As for your question, it's flawed. The portion of building above the impact
zone was blowing apart and leaving very little mass to push down on the
remainder of the building.

The 47 steel inner core columns, and 230+ outter columns carried the loads
for decades without problem.

Why did that change suddenly on Sept. 11/01?

It's a concept of dynamic loads vs static loads... you already assume that the top 'exploded' of course so why soil the entertainment?

So according to you if it is hidden behind a cloud of dust, in must not have been there.

[~enigma~]

I see that it's OK for you to dodge my questions which were asked first?
When you ask nonsense...yes, it is proper not to answer or otherwise give it any validity.
As for your question, it's flawed. The portion of building above the impact
zone was blowing apart and leaving very little mass to push down on the
remainder of the building.And you are the only one who noticed in spite of the thousands of people that analyzed and witnessed the event LIVE. Not to mention that your "expert" Jowenko says that isn't what happened. Nor does your pseudo-expert Gage say that happened.
The 47 steel inner core columns, and 230+ outter columns carried the loads
for decades without problem.

Why did that change suddenly on Sept. 11/01?As I asked, what power on earth could have prevented (or stopped) the collapse after the upper block slipped for 0.5 seconds (note that I am not asking about any area other than where there was initial slippage). Answer that and you will see that your question about other areas is nothing but a nice attempt at distraction.

[~enigma~]

It's a concept of dynamic loads vs static loads... you already assume that the top 'exploded' of course so why soil the entertainment?

So according to you if it is hidden behind a cloud of dust, in must not have been there.
Wonder why everybody missed such an event? i mean an explosion strong enough to "pulverize" a 15 story chunk of office building and nobody noticed it??????

[Grizzly Bear]

Wonder why everybody missed such an event? i mean an explosion strong enough to "pulverize" a 15 story chunk of office building and nobody noticed it??????

I imagine the truck bombs required were hush-a-booms. They wrapped them all in mattresses to muffle the insanely loud explosive noises. [/sarc]

[~enigma~]

I imagine the truck bombs required were hush-a-booms. They wrapped them all in mattresses to muffle the insanely loud explosive noises. [/sarc]
How did they get up to the top of the WTC?

[ElMondoHummus]

Oh we totally understand that.

Can't you understand that if the other areas (bascially 1000 feet of building) were not anywhere near fatigue temperature, it should not have fallen?


What? How can you come to that conclusion without a quantitative analysis of how much failed compared to how much did not?

The fact of the matter is that, in the fire and impact zone, some columns were severed, and others reached the point of heat-induced failure due to the fires. The columns that remained then had extreme stresses imposed on them due to the transfer of forces caused by the other columns failing. NIST's supplamental report - NCSTAR 1-6D - covers these stress transfers and failures in detail.

[~enigma~]

What? How can you come to that conclusion without a quantitative analysis of how much failed compared to how much did not?

The fact of the matter is that, in the fire and impact zone, some columns were severed, and others reached the point of heat-induced failure due to the fires. The columns that remained then had extreme stresses imposed on them due to the transfer of forces caused by the other columns failing. NIST's supplamental report - NCSTAR 1-6D - covers these stress transfers and failures in detail.
His bring up columns away from the fires is nothing more than an attempt at distraction. Notice how he refused to answer what power on earth could have prevented (or stopped) the collapse after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage. Methinks Turbofan has no idea what momentum is...

[Profanz]

The fires wouldn't have to be hot enough to compromise steel to get people to jump. In fact it's not the heat at all it's the smoke and the inability to breath.

[Turbofan]

I imagine the truck bombs required were hush-a-booms. They wrapped them all in mattresses to muffle the insanely loud explosive noises. [/sarc]


There were enough reporters on site claiming they felt, and heard bombs.
This is on video.

There is also video of sounds of explosions. One in particular is the scene
of a first responder on the phone and turning suddenly when hearing an
explosion.

[~enigma~]

There were enough reporters on site claiming they felt, and heard bombs.
This is on video.

There is also video of sounds of explosions. One in particular is the scene
of a first responder on the phone and turning suddenly when hearing an
explosion.
Riiight...explosions always mean bombs.

[Grizzly Bear]

There were enough reporters on site claiming they felt, and heard bombs.
This is on video.
Hell there were people who initially thought that bombs went off when the planes hit the towers because they had no idea what was happening. As big an event as it was, there was more than enough confusion to warrant people initially thinking 'bombs'


There is also video of sounds of explosions. One in particular is the scene of a first responder on the phone and turning suddenly when hearing an explosion.

And you have two towers that have had their mechanical systems screwed, and after collapsing you have serious damage to infrastructure. An acre of concrete impacting another acre of concrete will sound like an explosion, gas lines ruptures by the collapse of the towers, you name it. There are hundreds of people who heard explosions that day, however, the sounds do not equate to bombs, particularly with the type of event this was

[WildCat]

One in particular is the scene faked by truthers of a first responder on the phone and turning suddenly when [strike]hearing an explosion a fireman yells at him to leave, but a truther dubbed in the sound of an explosion because lacking evidence they were forced to manufacture it.
Fixed that for you Turbofan. :rolleyes:

If you doubt it find the original video.

[WildCat]

The fires wouldn't have to be hot enough to compromise steel to get people to jump. In fact it's not the heat at all it's the smoke and the inability to breath.
It was certainly the heat and heat alone that cause Edna Cintron to jump.

There are also phone calls, such as this one from Kevin Cosgrove: http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/audio/cosgrove_movie_high.mp4

And Melissa Doi: http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/audio/P200016-2.wav

Smoke and heat...

[Profanz]

It was certainly the heat and heat alone that cause Edna Cintron to jump.

There are also phone calls, such as this one from Kevin Cosgrove: http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/audio/cosgrove_movie_high.mp4

And Melissa Doi: http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/audio/P200016-2.wav

Smoke and heat...


It’s funny you should mention Cosgrove. Wasn’t he still alive when the building started to collapse supposedly from the heat compromised steel? How did his body withstand temperatures needed to weaken steel enough that he was still able to scream his last words into a phone? Maybe he was covered in all that spray on fire proofing that fell off the trusses huh?

[WildCat]

Wasn’t he still alive when the building started to collapse supposedly from the heat compromised steel?
Was he in the collapse initiation area genius?

Hear any bombs in that call?

[chillzero]

I'm moving some posts out of this thread. I asked earlier for people to try and discuss this in a calm manner. I'm sorry to see that some people are unable to respond in a non-inflammatory manner, but I am unable to remove what is on topic, no matter how disgustingly worded. I may set this thread to moderated status if this approach to baiting emotional responses from members continues.

[beachnut]

... The portion of building above the impact zone was blowing apart and leaving very little mass to push down on the remainder of the building. ...

Are you using p4t anti-Physics? That amount of mass disappearing would vaporize all of North American? The MASS is still there, that is why the WTC fell, the MASS is still there. When you figure out how to make the MASS go away, you will be famous! Do a paper, get the Prize. There is a moving about the Prize you will get.

Very good work, but you need to use real physics next time.

[ktesibios]

It’s funny you should mention Cosgrove. Wasn’t he still alive when the building started to collapse supposedly from the heat compromised steel? How did his body withstand temperatures needed to weaken steel enough that he was still able to scream his last words into a phone? Maybe he was covered in all that spray on fire proofing that fell off the trusses huh?

Are all the spaces within a building necessarily at the same temperature? The world's HVAC engineers will surely be set back on their heels by this startling revelation.

Regarding Poor Kevin Cosgrove's last phone call- I listened to it once a long time ago when it was linked in a thread here.

Now, in my previous job one of my specialties was doing audio enhancments for the legal profession. As a result, I listened to some really harrowing *****- 911 tapes where a dangling handset had captured the last moments of shooting and stabbing victims, a recording of the radio communications of freight train crews where my brief was "decipher the last order the conductor gave before the train took his leg off"- you get the picture. But even having worked on those, filtering out noise and measuring time intervals just as cooly as you please, I will never listen to the Cosgrove recording again. It's more than I can stand.

Thank you for conclusively proving your indescribably vile callousness.
<plonk>

[Turbofan]

Are you using p4t anti-Physics? That amount of mass disappearing would vaporize all of North American? The MASS is still there, that is why the WTC fell, the MASS is still there. When you figure out how to make the MASS go away, you will be famous! Do a paper, get the Prize. There is a moving about the Prize you will get.

Very good work, but you need to use real physics next time.



The mass was being blown out laterally, remember? It is no longer above
the remaining tower structure.

You mean, you can't see the top section disappearing with all that dust
blowing away?

From this:
http://www.procision-auto.com/Tino/wtc_stop1.jpg

to this:
http://www.procision-auto.com/Tino/wtc_stop6.jpg


without the bottom section descending.

Amazing!

[robeeb]

Truthers,

Here is a reality check for you. Forget your conspiracy theories for a moment. Imagine that you have just gotten up to start a new work day. You go to work, have some coffee, talk to a few friends, the usual beginning of the day sort of things. Now, imagine that before your work day is over, you are going to die. As if that isn't bad enough, you are also going to be forced into making a decision as to how you will die. Your choices are suffocation, burning to death, or jumping from nearly 1/4 of a mile above the earth to the street below. Does that sound like Hell on Earth to you? It certainly does to me. It's a nightmare scenario that hundreds of PEOPLE had to face that day. I would ask you to think about those people, and what they went through, everytime you decide to use them as a cheap prop in an attempt to further your so-called "theories".

[Profanz]

Are all the spaces within a building necessarily at the same temperature?


All the spaces? Was it a raging inferno able to weaken enough steel to collape an entire 110 story building in less then an hour or not? How do people not burn up in place hot enough to compromise steel? So was this only pockets of fire? Because it looked to me like the building failed all the way around.

[Profanz]

Truthers,

Here is a reality check for you. Forget your conspiracy theories for a moment. Imagine that you have just gotten up to start a new work day. You go to work, have some coffee, talk to a few friends, the usual beginning of the day sort of things. Now, imagine that before your work day is over, you are going to die. As if that isn't bad enough, you are also going to be forced into making a decision as to how you will die. Your choices are suffocation, burning to death, or jumping from nearly 1/4 of a mile above the earth to the street below. Does that sound like Hell on Earth to you? It certainly does to me. It's a nightmare scenario that hundreds of PEOPLE had to face that day. I would ask you to think about those people, and what they went through, everytime you decide to use them as a cheap prop in an attempt to further your so-called "theories".


Oh please. Save it. Like you care. You just used those people because you had nothing else. Good job.

Stop this inflammatory posting, and keep it civil or you will face further moderator action. (I don't want to have to remove any responses to this either, please.)

[~enigma~]

All the spaces? Was it a raging inferno able to weaken enough steel to collape an entire 110 story building in less then an hour or not? How do people not burn up in place hot enough to compromise steel? So was this only pockets of fire? Because it looked to me like the building failed all the way around.
Be the first person in history that can answer this...

After the first 0.5 seconds of slippage IN THE AREA OF IMPACT explain what power could have prevented collapse. Also explain why a 15 story chunk of office building would not and could not have caused an overload of the remaining heat weakened columns IN THE AREA OF IMPACT?

[WildCat]

How do people not burn up in place hot enough to compromise steel?
They did, as anyone who isn't completely clueless would know.

The people who jumped did so only after they were literally backed up against the wall by the spreading smoke and flames.

[ElMondoHummus]

All the spaces? Was it a raging inferno able to weaken enough steel to collape an entire 110 story building in less then an hour or not? How do people not burn up in place hot enough to compromise steel? So was this only pockets of fire? Because it looked to me like the building failed all the way around.

Some steel columns were severed by the impact of the jet. Others were failing due to heat from the fires. The ones that were left over were taking increasing loads that were transferring over when other columns failed in the fires. This happened until the remaining columns were stressed to their breaking point. NCSTAR 1-6D reports what columns faced what amounts of stress. The point is that no, the fire did not have to be uniform across the entirety of any given floor to explain what happened. The remaining columns that were not directly affected by the fire were still affected by the load that was transferring to them.

And yes, the building did indeed fail all the way around. But fire did not cause the failures below the collapse initiation point; the thing that caused those failures was the impact of the upper section of the towers on each of those lower floors.

[WildCat]

The mass was being blown out laterally, remember? It is no longer above
the remaining tower structure.
Oh, I'm dying to hear how all the debris fell away from the building.

This is such a stupid statement as to make me think you're just a troll who doesn't believe in this nonsense after all.

[robeeb]

Profanz,


I challenge you to find any place in this thread where I am attempting to "prove" something. Since I have absolutely no interest in proving anything in this thread, to say I am "using" anyone to prove something is quite untrue. As far as whether I "care", or not is irrrelevant given the fact that you don't know me, and know nothing of whom I do or do not care about. You need to stop the personal attacks.

[beachnut]

The mass was being blown out laterally, remember? It is no longer above the remaining tower structure. ...
Why are truth movement people anti-intellectual? Why not take engineering or learn to use sound judgment based on knowledge? You are have made an art of using hearsay and lies, trying to make points and failing.

The majority of the mass is not ejected. You have failed again. Relax, you have no degree in engineering and 0.00087 of the world engineers agree withy our fantasy ideas. You are as smart as 0.00087 percent of all world engineers; a massive feat when you consider your total lack of knowledge on structures, fire, FDRs, 9/11, flying, firefighting, physics, math, kinetic energy, engineering, and logic.

Got physics, no, you make fun of it by botching every single fact on 9/11. You must have blocked all rational web sites on your computer. BTW, the nut case idea web sites on 9/11 are the top hits for 9/11 issues, you must dig deeper to find the intellectual web sites on 9/11. That is where judgment comes in, something you are not using, along with knowledge.

I doubt you understand the towers were 95 percent air. The energy released in collapse was over 100 1000 pound bombs in kinetic energy from each tower. No explosives were used, they would have left evidence, no thermite was used, it leaves big piles of iron. Good luck, great post, you are as smart as 0.00087 percent of all world engineers on this topic, a great goal considering how you are not using any evidence or knowledge to support your ideas!

I look forward to the next missing mass post.

Question! Based on your extensive research, how much weight can one floor in the WTC hold without failing? Please try to answer one question so I can learn more about 9/11, maybe I am wrong and stubborn.

how much weight can one floor in the WTC hold without failing?

how much weight can one floor in the WTC hold without failing?

incase you missed it. Thank you for your learned answer in advance.

how much weight can one floor in the WTC hold without failing?

[applecorped]

How hot and smoky does it have to be for a person to jump? 1000 degrees?
500 degrees? 100 degrees?

Do you think you could take about 15 minutes of black thick smoke and
200 degrees F?

Is that enough to melt steel?

I guess you all forget about the people standing in the openings, and poking
out the windows in the upper floors too. It must have been real hot above
the crash area to lean on steel, and hang out of windows flagging for help.

If it was really +600'F up there, do you think they'd be able to survive and
wave?

What do you say, can I stick you in a room full of black smoke and ummm...
200 degrees F for 15 minutes.

Do you think you could breathe, or take the heat?

:rolleyes:

This is one of the more repugnant replies ever posted.

[Bobert]

Weren't there idiot truthers who at one point speculated that the NWO Men In Black were pushing those poor people out of the buildings?

[applecorped]

This is Twilight Zone material. How truly sad.

[leftysergeant]

Most people who are worried about not being able to breath will stop worrying when they reach a point where they can breath. Edna Cintron could breath where she was. The air was entering the building from that point. Based on the smoke inhalation explanation for the jumpers, she had no reason to jump. That leaves only the heat. End of that discussion, at least in the minds of rational observers.

That there were still fires burning is evident in the bursts of flame that erupted sporadicly from the corner of the south tower just prior to its failure.

Bear in mind that the impact of the aircraft in both towers opened up stairwells and elevator shafts to act as chmineys. This directed a great deal of heat to the core columns, which were, by that time, largely stripped of insulation.

It does not take a lot of heat to cause steel to expand by far more than the joints were designed to withstand. A friend of mine, as a young resistance fighter, destroyed a sction of railroad tracks with a handful of coins by preventing their expanding smoothly in the hot sun. This is not a novel concept.

As for the mass disappearing over the sides of the buildings, we see mostly dust and perimeter columns, not floor slabs or chuncks of concrete. Concrete chunks would have falled faster than the dust, entraining streamers of dust behind them. Didn't happen.

You need to watch some actual explosives being set off some time.

[Profanz]

Most people who are worried about not being able to breath will stop worrying when they reach a point where they can breath. Edna Cintron could breath where she was. The air was entering the building from that point. Based on the smoke inhalation explanation for the jumpers, she had no reason to jump. That leaves only the heat. End of that discussion, at least in the minds of rational observers.

That there were still fires burning is evident in the bursts of flame that erupted sporadicly from the corner of the south tower just prior to its failure.

Bear in mind that the impact of the aircraft in both towers opened up stairwells and elevator shafts to act as chmineys. This directed a great deal of heat to the core columns, which were, by that time, largely stripped of insulation.

It does not take a lot of heat to cause steel to expand by far more than the joints were designed to withstand. A friend of mine, as a young resistance fighter, destroyed a sction of railroad tracks with a handful of coins by preventing their expanding smoothly in the hot sun. This is not a novel concept.

As for the mass disappearing over the sides of the buildings, we see mostly dust and perimeter columns, not floor slabs or chuncks of concrete. Concrete chunks would have falled faster than the dust, entraining streamers of dust behind them. Didn't happen.

You need to watch some actual explosives being set off some time.


This whole thread and line of argument is nonsense. Even if poor Edna or Kevin or anyone else was suffering from heat that caused them to jump or think about jumping doesn't mean it was hot enough to compromise steel. Is this the proof being offered up here that fire was hot enough to weaken the trusses that were still strong enough to pull in on the columns causing global collapse? Is this debunking? Does this validate the official theory?

[~enigma~]

This whole thread and line of argument is nonsense. Even if poor Edna or Kevin or anyone else was suffering from heat that caused them to jump or think about jumping doesn't mean it was hot enough to compromise steel. Is this the proof being offered up here that fire was hot enough to weaken the trusses that were still strong enough to pull in on the columns causing global collapse? Is this debunking? Does this validate the official theory?
Be the first person in history that can answer this...

After the first 0.5 seconds of slippage IN THE AREA OF IMPACT explain what power could have prevented collapse. Also explain why a 15 story chunk of office building would not and could not have caused an overload of the remaining heat weakened columns IN THE AREA OF IMPACT?

[leftysergeant]

This whole thread and line of argument is nonsense. Even if poor Edna or Kevin or anyone else was suffering from heat that caused them to jump or think about jumping doesn't mean it was hot enough to compromise steel. Is this the proof being offered up here that fire was hot enough to weaken the trusses that were still strong enough to pull in on the columns causing global collapse? Is this debunking? Does this validate the official theory?

I have stood twenty feet away from a furnace capable of melting steel, freezing my kundingi off.

What's your point.

[Tweeter]

I dont want to derail the thread or anything, but were there any jumpers at WTC 2?

[~enigma~]

I dont want to derail the thread or anything, but were there any jumpers at WTC 2?
There were several reasons more people jumped from the north tower than from the south. Here are a few...The fire was more intense and compact in the north tower. The jet hit higher, so smoke was concentrated in 15 floors compared with 30 floors in the south tower, which was hit on the 78th through 84th floors. The north tower also stood longer: 102 minutes vs. 56 minutes. And twice as many people were trapped on the north tower's upper floors than in the south tower, where occupants had 16 1/2 minutes to evacuate before the second jet hit.

Let's see if you can think of any others...

[Turbofan]

You're all basing this "jump theory" on the assumption that the areas above
and below the impact zone were 1000+F!

Once again, the human body can withstand how much smoke and temperature?

What temp does water boil at? Put your finger it a pot of boiling water, and
tell me how long you can hold it there.

After that, check the pot and tell me how much it melted LMFAO!

[Architect]

[sighs, shakes head]

I see we're back on the old "no intense fires" canard. Really, this has been debated to death and the Truthers lost every time. Why are we giving this fellow the airtime?

[~enigma~]

You're all basing this "jump theory" on the assumption that the areas above
and below the impact zone were 1000+F!

Once again, the human body can withstand how much smoke and temperature?

What temp does water boil at? Put your finger it a pot of boiling water, and
tell me how long you can hold it there.

After that, check the pot and tell me how much it melted LMFAO!
Be the first person in history that can answer this...

After the first 0.5 seconds of slippage IN THE AREA OF IMPACT explain what power could have prevented collapse. Also explain why a 15 story chunk of office building would not and could not have caused an overload of the remaining heat weakened columns IN THE AREA OF IMPACT?

[Mr. Skinny]

You're all basing this "jump theory" on the assumption that the areas above
and below the impact zone were 1000+F!

Once again, the human body can withstand how much smoke and temperature?

What temp does water boil at? Put your finger it a pot of boiling water, and
tell me how long you can hold it there.

After that, check the pot and tell me how much it melted LMFAO! Turbofan,

Study some thermodynamics. Specifically, heat transfer.

[beachnut]

This whole thread and line of argument is nonsense. Even if poor Edna or Kevin or anyone else was suffering from heat that caused them to jump or think about jumping doesn't mean it was hot enough to compromise steel. Is this the proof being offered up here that fire was hot enough to weaken the trusses that were still strong enough to pull in on the columns causing global collapse? Is this debunking? Does this validate the official theory?
It Is it faulty logic making it hard for you to grasp the fact fire destroys buildings? What knowledge do you lack for you to make such poor posts based on pure hearsay and made up ideas?

It was hot enough to compromise steel, if you studied standard office fires you can see the heat is there! When you have arson in the form of terrorist using 66,000 POUNDS OF JET FUEL, to set office fires on multiple floor simultaneously, and you knock out all the FIRE systems and rip off the INSULATION, you get what you see on 9/11. The reason many did not expect the tower to fall, was lack of knowledge of the SPEED of the aircraft impacts. If everyone knew the magnitude of the impacts and how much insulation and core columns were destroyed, they would have expected failure rapidly. If someone can start burning from a distance, then jump, you know it is hot, even if they can hold out for minutes, distance is key to how much heat radiation you get. Study some thermo, or ask an expert. I have talk to survivors of fires, and their skin started to burn at a distance from the fire, that is why they were motivated to move fast, and on 9/11, it motivated people to jump due to great pain! The heat issue on people can be read about, I hate to see such ignorance on an issue that is based in fact, but people like you fail to take the time to learn the minimum, but gladly post and spew lies about 9/11. Fire destroys the strength of steel, go ahead post the graphs, you can find them online if you try. There was 3 inches of drywall on the core columns, to protect them for hours so firemen can have time to put out fires, and people can leave! The 3 inches was decimated to dust, by a 2093 pound of TNT equivalent kinetic energy event, flight 175! The unprotected steel quickly, very quickly was heated and failed. The building was not designed for 1300 to 2093 pounds of TNT kinetic energy aircraft impacts, it was designed for a 187 pound of TNT kinetic energy aircraft impact, an impact 10 times the energy involved in the ESB aircraft accident. But as you can see, 9/11 impacts were 7 to 11 times greater. I am throwing in the math for free.

Physics, math, research, some logical thinking, sound judgment, would help the truth movement understand 9/11. I have no idea why the truth movement insists on being in complete ignorance on physics, fire safety, firefighting, and structures. Do you?

After you lean about the WTC structure, and understand the impacts, you will not be making accidentally ignorant posts. Trust me, you are only short on knowledge, and I believe everyone has a keen desire to learn and not remain in the darkness of ignorance you have displayed in physics, fire safety, structures, math, firefighting, and other areas. Good luck learning more, your post was very informative for me as I reflected on why I am unable to fall for the blatant lies of 9/11 truth, you only lack facts and evidence. Good luck again.

Impacts, fire, collapse! The act of 19 terrorist. But they failed when the rules were known! Flight 93 passengers figured out 9/11 in minutes, and took action; the truth movement has taken 6 years to make up lies about 9/11 and not take one single action but to sell membership in organization building on lies, and sell DVD of lies. Good luck trying to understand what it takes our best to figure out in minutes! Good job, great post.

[Tweeter]

There were several reasons more people jumped from the north tower than from the south. Here are a few...The fire was more intense and compact in the north tower. The jet hit higher, so smoke was concentrated in 15 floors compared with 30 floors in the south tower, which was hit on the 78th through 84th floors. The north tower also stood longer: 102 minutes vs. 56 minutes. And twice as many people were trapped on the north tower's upper floors than in the south tower, where occupants had 16 1/2 minutes to evacuate before the second jet hit.

Let's see if you can think of any others...

I actually didnt think any people jumped from the second tower. Any proof there were? I`m trying to make a hypothesis of what i think happened that day, thats why i`m asking.

[~enigma~]

I actually didnt think any people jumped from the second tower. Any proof there were? I`m trying to make a hypothesis of what i think happened that day, thats why i`m asking.
Off hand I don't but I didn't search. Why don't you?

ETA - Kind of an extremely morbid curiosity...

[stateofgrace]

You're all basing this "jump theory" on the assumption that the areas above
and below the impact zone were 1000+F!

Once again, the human body can withstand how much smoke and temperature?

What temp does water boil at? Put your finger it a pot of boiling water, and
tell me how long you can hold it there.

After that, check the pot and tell me how much it melted LMFAO!

Sorry, you are laughing your arse off? You find this amusing do you?

You find it highly amusing that real people jumped out of buildings to their certain death rather than face the inferno inside?

Excuse me, while I don't join you, laughing your arse off, and express my utter disgust at your revolting comment.

[Norseman]

USA Today did an in-depth study on the victims that were forced to jump. Recommended reading, especially for the truthers here:
Desperation forced a horrific decision (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper_x.htm)

It answers most of the questions made here, including the numbers of victims jumping from the north and the south towers.

[Norseman]

What the truthers here fail to understand is that the steel on a floor with fire can be glowing hot, with its strength reduced to the point of failure, while a short distance above or below it is cool enough to be touched with bare hands. Something that should be evident from the following photos of blacksmiths handling rods of steel glowing at one end, yet cold enough at the other end to be held with bare hands:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/icar/122120814/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mergemind/241851902/sizes/m/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/e_cathedra/2362670002/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9308488@N05/1323089661/

So much for the steel structure working as a heat sink theory.

ETA
The temperature of the pieces can be estimated by this chart:
http://www.beautifuliron.com/usingthe.htm

[l0k0]

This whole thread and line of argument is nonsense. Even if poor Edna or Kevin or anyone else was suffering from heat that caused them to jump or think about jumping doesn't mean it was hot enough to compromise steel. Is this the proof being offered up here that fire was hot enough to weaken the trusses that were still strong enough to pull in on the columns causing global collapse? Is this debunking? Does this validate the official theory?
No one is using this to validate the official story. It originated with the truthers misrepresenting Edna's waving as "proof" that the steel was not hot enough. Don't blame us because truthers are naive enough to think this proves it wasn't hot enough to weaken the steel or that their argument completely backfires since she jumped to her death.

Your assumption that this is used as proof that the fires did burn hot enough is unfounded, and in this case a strawman. Truthers provide a claim, it is proven demonstrately false, and then you pull a complete reversal on how it doesn't disprove something else entirely. How sad.

[beachnut]

What the truthers here fail to understand is that the steel on a floor with fire can be glowing hot, with its strength reduced to the point of failure, while a short distance above or below it is cool enough to be touched with bare hands. Something that should be evident from the following photos of blacksmiths handling rods of steel glowing at one end, yet cold enough at the other end to be held with bare hands:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/icar/122120814/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mergemind/241851902/sizes/m/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/e_cathedra/2362670002/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9308488@N05/1323089661/

So much for the steel structure working as a heat sink theory.

ETA
The temperature of the pieces can be estimated by this chart:
http://www.beautifuliron.com/usingthe.htm

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/woodbeambentsteel-full.jpg
"Truth (false information)" posters constantly prove, the truth movement fails to understand the real world?

[Bobert]

I actually didnt think any people jumped from the second tower. Any proof there were? I`m trying to make a hypothesis of what i think happened that day, thats why i`m asking.

I cant wait to see your hypothesis.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Turbofan]

Be the first person in history that can answer this...

After the first 0.5 seconds of slippage IN THE AREA OF IMPACT explain what power could have prevented collapse. Also explain why a 15 story chunk of office building would not and could not have caused an overload of the remaining heat weakened columns IN THE AREA OF IMPACT?

I already answered that. You didn't read it again...

What Power? Power? Is that a physics term for opposing gravity?

Remember the talk about the core and perimeter (outer) steel columns?

[Architect]

Really, you know absolutely nothing about structural engineering, do you Turbofan? Tell me, do you bring any meanginful analysis to this debate or are you just going to argue from a position of personal incredulity?

[tsig]

I already answered that. You didn't read it again...

What Power? Power? Is that a physics term for opposing gravity?

Remember the talk about the core and perimeter (outer) steel columns?


Force? What Force? Opposes Gravity?


Remember

[~enigma~]

I already answered that. You didn't read it again...

What Power? Power? Is that a physics term for opposing gravity?

Remember the talk about the core and perimeter (outer) steel columns?
You didn't answer. You assume asking a question is an answer but your wrong. You are unable or unwilling to answer. If you can't or won't answer the question, you should seriously reconsider your idiotic stance that the government orchestrated 9/11.

[beachnut]

Force? What Force? Opposes Gravity?


Remember
anti-gravity…

he has already tried to us anti-matter to make the mass go away...

what does he mean?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Explain what force on earth could have stopped the tower(s) from collapsing after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage. Do you understand the momentum involved or do you think it's a great idea to mimic the rest of the truth intellectual idiots in the truth movement?
Explain what force (mass) above the towers could have created enough pressure to squish 1000 feet of tower if the stop frame analysis shows it
was blowing up ABOVE the impact zone?

Again, how long can a human survive in 200 'F heat?

TAM, it must not have been too hot until that point then huh? Maybe 90'F.

What temperature must it have been for the people to start jumping?
Be the first person in history that can answer this...

After the first 0.5 seconds of slippage IN THE AREA OF IMPACT explain what power could have prevented collapse. Also explain why a 15 story chunk of office building would not and could not have caused an overload of the remaining heat weakened columns IN THE AREA OF IMPACT?
I already answered that. You didn't read it again...

What Power? Power? Is that a physics term for opposing gravity?

Remember the talk about the core and perimeter (outer) steel columns?


Questions aren't answers, Turbofan. Seriously... Are you OK?

[Turbofan]

Questions aren't answers, Turbofan. Seriously... Are you OK?

Knock, knock...

The 0.5 seconds of "slippage" (whatever that is? What slipped?), should have
been stopped by the core and perimeter columns below the impact zone.

I mean...they were holding up the tower all of those years?

That is my answer. The opposing "force" (*cough*) is the strength
of the steel beams.

15 stories ? Of dust? I still don't see a full intact section of tower falling
all the way through 1000 feet of tower.

Show me a picture. Video. Anything to prove the 15 stories pushed down
on the tower.

[Grizzly Bear]

Knock, knock...
I mean...they were holding up the tower all of those years?


But at no point during those 30 some odd years did the the equivalent of 15 floors (30 for the south tower) fall an entire floor height at the accelleration of gravity to impart a dynamic load on the individual components.

By your logic a my bed which I've slept on for 10 years should be able to resist the force of me jumping on it from my roof... I mean hey, I'm a 200-pound man... since it can support my weight then surely I can be sure that I won't fall right through the frame jumping on it from the roof :rolleyes:

F=ma

turbo... if only you knew how to use that equation... :(

15 stories ? Of dust? I still don't see a full intact section of tower falling all the way through 1000 feet of tower.
Of course you still have the mass of the floor slabs acting on everything piece by piece... By claiming that it was "nothing but dust", you're certainly headed in the direction of Judy Wood there... look out for lazers!
http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/fs18/300W/i/2007/156/f/d/SHOOP_DA_WHOOP_SVG_TEMPLATE_by_Trudetski.png


Show me a picture. Video. Anything to prove the 15 stories pushed down on the tower.

Unfortunately there are no 'x-ray videos' that can show you all of the mass that the cloud of dust and smoke is hiding, and you clearly seem apt to reject anything that doesn't do so...

[WildCat]

Knock, knock...

The 0.5 seconds of "slippage" (whatever that is? What slipped?), should have
been stopped by the core and perimeter columns below the impact zone.
Did the upper block fall directly on the columns?

I mean...they were holding up the tower all of those years?
With a live load that wasn't even on the columns, but on the floors?

That is my answer. The opposing "force" (*cough*) is the strength
of the steel beams.
What steel beams? You mean the trusses? You think the trusses were designed to hold all that weight?

[Turbofan]

But at no point during those 30 some odd years did the the equivalent of 15 floors (30 for the south tower) fall an entire floor height at the accelleration of gravity to impart a dynamic load on the individual components.

At no point on 9/11 did the top section fall an entire floor height!

How many columns were cut again? :rolleyes:


Of course you still have the mass of the floor slabs acting on everything piece by piece

Conservation of Momentum? If YOU only knew what that meant...


Unfortunately there are no 'x-ray videos' that can show you all of the mass that the cloud of dust and smoke is hiding, and you clearly seem apt to reject anything that doesn't do so...

Do you care to explain how the dust was created as the demo wave descended
with gravity alone?

You do realize the impact surface must be able to resist the "falling" (?) object
in order to produce the dust?

[Turbofan]

Did the upper block fall directly on the columns?

Nothing FELL! It was all connected by columns inside and out.

Understand yet?


With a live load that wasn't even on the columns, but on the floors?

What's your source for this? Where did the 47 core columns go?

What steel beams? You mean the trusses? You think the trusses were designed to hold all that weight?

The 47 core columns! Where are they? How do they disconnect ...and if
they did, where did the move to quick enough to avoid sticking up into the
air?

[Seymour Butz]

I actually didnt think any people jumped from the second tower. Any proof there were? I`m trying to make a hypothesis of what i think happened that day, thats why i`m asking.

There was an intact stairwell in 2.

So unless they couldn't find it, I'd imagine they got below the fire zone.

[Grizzly Bear]

Nothing FELL! It was all connected by columns inside and out.

Understand yet?

First off... before you continue, learn the difference between 'cut' and 'buckled'. Buckled is a failure mode in which either the connections or the column itself fails. Nothing was ever 'cut', but of course repeat and rinse, until we believe your imaginary controlled demolition... riight?:rolleyes:



Where did the 47 core columns go?
It seem you have to be taken through this continually in baby steps. They ended up in the debris pile. Gravity pulls things down on earth...



The 47 core columns! Where are they?
I dunno... in what direction does gravity pull objects turbo? Are you seriously this incompetent? You still think they should have been standing unbraced?


How do they disconnect
Gravity, and loss of lateral bracing to keep moment stresses on the connections in check.

...and if they do, where did the move to quick enough to avoid sticking up into the air?

All I see here is gibberish... what are you asking here? how they buckled? You see what happens to the cores in video footage. This isn't hard to grasp...

Here turbo... I'll try to be optimistic and hope this teaches you the concept... I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

LINK (http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6056/structureskc9.jpg)

ETA: Assuming you even bother to check the link... pay special attention to the area in orange That is the difference braced vs. UNbraced