Robber's fake gun doesn't fool manager

[Richard G]

Some criminals should be arrested for their own safety, when committing a robbery use a real gun and pick an unarmed victim.

http://www.news-record.com/news/local/gso/fakegun17rk.htm

[AmateurScientist]

Idiot. Anyone pulling a gun, real or not, on someone else intended as a serious threat risks getting plugged.

AS

[LucyR]

If only that sort of thing happened more often in SA...

Incidentally, Richard, do you know what the laws are in the States regarding foreign nationals owning guns? Is there a federal law or does it vary from state to state?

[clk]

If the robber had dropped the fake gun and fled when he saw the manager's real gun, and the manager had shot him in the leg to prevent him from getting away, would the manager be in legal trouble? I wasn't sure what the law said in a case like that. Can anyone clarify?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by LucyR
If only that sort of thing happened more often in SA...

Incidentally, Richard, do you know what the laws are in the States regarding foreign nationals owning guns? Is there a federal law or does it vary from state to state?

Searching around, I find this (http://www.hispanicvista.com/html/093002en.htm) which says that federal law prohibits gun ownership by non-citizens only if they are in the country illegally, are convicted criminal, or are in the country on nonimmigrant visas. It also says Nebraska law says the same, so I assume that he law varies by state.

[LucyR]

Thanks very much!

What about a concealed weapons permit? I carried a concealed .38 Special for years back home. Can't really see the point of buying a weapon for self-defence and then locking it in a safe. The question is academic though, I feel orders of magnitude safer in the US, and don't think I'll ever get round to buying a gun.

[mickky]

Originally posted by clk
If the robber had dropped the fake gun and fled when he saw the manager's real gun, and the manager had shot him in the leg to prevent him from getting away, would the manager be in legal trouble? I wasn't sure what the law said in a case like that. Can anyone clarify?

I believe the manager would have to demonstrate that he thought the gun was real; i.e. he thought his life was in danger, and was defending himself, else he's shooting an unarmed man.
Something like that.

[clk]

Originally posted by mickky


I believe the manager would have to demonstrate that he thought the gun was real; i.e. he thought his life was in danger, and was defending himself, else he's shooting an unarmed man.
Something like that.

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured too. I think that if someone tries to rob your store with a fake gun, and then tries to run away, you should be able to shoot them in the leg or something, to prevent them from running away. Yes, you would be shooting an unarmed person, but that person is a criminal, and you are preventing him from escaping and potentially committing more crimes. But with the legal system in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if the store owner went to jail for doing something like that, and the robber got off scotch free...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by clk


Yeah, that's kind of what I figured too. I think that if someone tries to rob your store with a fake gun, and then tries to run away, you should be able to shoot them in the leg or something, to prevent them from running away. Yes, you would be shooting an unarmed person, but that person is a criminal, and you are preventing him from escaping and potentially committing more crimes. But with the legal system in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if the store owner went to jail for doing something like that, and the robber got off scotch free...
You have no right to shoot anybody who is running away simply to prevent them from possibly doing something naughty in the future. Your rights to self defence extend to defending yourself or another person from immediate danger.... Shooting dudes in the leg/arm/foot in order to simply prevent them from leaving the scene will land you in trouble.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by clk


Yeah, that's kind of what I figured too. I think that if someone tries to rob your store with a fake gun, and then tries to run away, you should be able to shoot them in the leg or something, to prevent them from running away. Yes, you would be shooting an unarmed person, but that person is a criminal, and you are preventing him from escaping and potentially committing more crimes. But with the legal system in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if the store owner went to jail for doing something like that, and the robber got off scotch free...

The "robber" is guilty of attempted robbery. If there was no privilege applicable the store owner would be guilty of some type of felony battery. I assume no attempted murder as there is no specific intent to kill. However, the robber would not get off scott free.

It is unclear depending on the jurisdiction whether the store owner is privileged in his use of force.

At common law, If a felony was actually committed, the store owner would be privileged in effecting an arrest and using deadly force to prevent escape. Of course, since under common law all felonies were punishable by death, the law held that when a person committed a felony he/she forfeits his/her life, so deadly force is just speeding things up.

In modern times it gets gray. A non-officer can arrest a suspect if a dangerous felony has actually occured. If it turns out there was no felony, the non-officer has no legal defense for his actions (Unlike an officer who only needs reasonable grounds to effect arrest).

So, in most jurisdictions a private individual uses force to arrest at his own peril, if it turns out the force is excessive, or that the suspect did not commit a dangerous felony, the individual has no protection.

The modern trend, as reflected in the "Model Penal Code," is to bar deadly force by a private person in making arrests unless that person believes he or she is assisting an officer.

[Richard G]

Incidentally, Richard, do you know what the laws are in the States regarding foreign nationals owning guns? Is there a federal law or does it vary from state to state?

Yes I do. It is unlawfull for any foriegner to posses a firearm in the U.S. Thats Federal law. That all changes of course if one is naturalized.

That rules out a CCW permit.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Richard G
It is unlawfull for any foriegner to posses a firearm in the U.S. Thats Federal law.

Not always the case.

From the BATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a15):

Q. May foreign visitors and other aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?


A. Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.

There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1) nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;

2) nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms;

3) certain diplomats;

4) officials of foreign governments or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the U.S. State Department;

5) foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and

6) persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the U.S. Attorney General.

Significantly, even if a nonimmigrant alien falls within one of these exceptions, the nonimmigrant alien CANNOT purchase a firearm from a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) unless he or she (1) has an alien number or admission number from the Immigration and Naturalization Service AND (2) can provide the FFL with documentation showing that he or she has resided in a State within the United States for 90 days prior to the firearms transaction.