What should be done about this? [Archive]

mrbaracuda

27th July 2008, 05:59 AM

http://www.btselem.org/english/Firearms/20080721_Nilin_Shooting.asp

What action, if any, should be taken against the responsible people? What action do you think will happen?

I don't know, but I know we have some military folks here, so ask them what should happen to someone who

- discharges his weapon most likely without authorization and no need
- injures the toe of that Pally (it was swollen and that's it)

What you don't see on B'Tselem (at least I don't; the embedded thing doesn't work but I could download the .wmv) is the interview the guy gave shortly afterwards. Not showing his 'wound', not being in pain.

So I dunno, would you like to see the IDF soldier executed, Fool? Or what? Yawn.

The Fool

28th July 2008, 02:31 AM

I don't know, but I know we have some military folks here, so ask them what should happen to someone who

- discharges his weapon most likely without authorization and no need
- injures the toe of that Pally (it was swollen and that's it)

What you don't see on B'Tselem (at least I don't; the embedded thing doesn't work but I could download the .wmv) is the interview the guy gave shortly afterwards. Not showing his 'wound', not being in pain.

So I dunno, would you like to see the IDF soldier executed, Fool? Or what? Yawn.

Can I put you on the list of those who think nothing should be done?

Gurdur

28th July 2008, 02:54 AM

2 toes for 1 toe?

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 02:56 AM

Yawn. Nevermind.

ddt

28th July 2008, 03:05 AM

Yikes. I should hope the soldier be brought to justice as quickly as possible.

Indeed. And don't forget the batallion commander:
B’Tselem also demanded an investigation into the involvement of the battalion commander, who held the detainee. B'Tselem stressed that members of the security forces are obligated to report unlawful acts and that a senior officer’s failure to do so is particularly grave.

He may not have ordered the shooting, but he did authorize it post facto by not filing a report on it.

Gurdur

28th July 2008, 03:27 AM

Indeed. And don't forget the batallion commander:

He may not have ordered the shooting, but he did authorize it post facto by not filing a report on it.

Correct and well-said. Just a small point; according to the soldier, he did indeed order the shooting; the question is, did he order the prisoner wounded or merely order a shot in the air?

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 03:41 AM

Correct and well-said. Just a small point; according to the soldier, he did indeed order the shooting; the question is, did he order the prisoner wounded or merely order a shot in the air?

And according to his superiour, who took a polygraph test and said he didn't, he didn't. Yadda yadda. I advice you to read some other articles than just the B'Tselem one. There's also been a press conference with.. ah, what was his name. Department of Defense guy.. I forgot.

So, hang 'em both high? Or what should happen? Yawn.

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 04:02 AM

[He didn't] fil[e] a report on it.

How do you know that by the way?

ddt

28th July 2008, 04:06 AM

And according to his superiour, who took a polygraph test and said he didn't, he didn't. Yadda yadda. I advice you to read some other articles than just the B'Tselem one. There's also been a press conference with.. ah, what was his name. Department of Defense guy.. I forgot.
That's why I said "may have ordered". But the indisputable fact remains that the superior failed to file a report on this. Thus, he gave the soldier a free pass. That should be punished too.

Or do you have sources that contradict this?

So, hang 'em both high? Or what should happen? Yawn.
OK, let's turn it around. Presume you're in some kind of demonstration in your home town. The police apprehend you, blindfold you and one of them shoots you in the toe. Someone has videotaped it, you get the tape two weeks later. What do you want to happen to the police officer who fired the shot, and to his superior who didn't file a report on it?

Because that's what's happened. The army here was simply doing police work, which is indeed one of their tasks in occupied territory.

Gurdur

28th July 2008, 04:10 AM

And according to his superiour, who took a polygraph test and said he didn't, he didn't.

Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable. I recommend you read A Tremor In The Blood (http://www.amazon.com/Tremor-Blood-Uses-Abuses-Detector/dp/0070392102/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217242916&sr=1-2) for an exhaustive psychological and technical critique of the polygraph. The professional who wrote that book, David T. Lykken, actually developed and detailed in that book a question procedure that would avoid all the problems of current polygraph procedure; IOW he showed how to use a polygraph reliably and usefully. However, his suggested procedure is still not widely used today. End result, polygraphs as commonly used are unreliable, and very often not usable as evidence.

( Yadda yadda. I advice you to read some other articles than just the B'Tselem one. There's also been a press conference with.. ah, what was his name. Department of Defense guy.. I forgot.

I would love to read them, only you don't seem to know what I should read, only that I should read it, whatever it is.

( Yadda yadda. .... So, hang 'em both high? Or what should happen? Yawn.

Possibly I am the wrong person to be talking to for you? Possibly Oliver would be more suited for you?

ddt

28th July 2008, 04:19 AM

How do you know that by the way?

From the BTselem page:
Apparently, until the video was aired, the army did not conduct a Military Police investigation, and settled for an operational debriefing. According to the reports, the debriefing reached the desk of the Judea and Samaria (West Bank) Division Commander, who failed to inform the Military Police or the Judge Advocate General’s Office, or to take any measures against the soldier or the battalion commander.

I may have been a little too hasty; others may be able to clarify whose duty it is to inform the MP or the JAG, that of the battalion commander or of the division commander. "Operational debriefing" sounds to me like a way to give it some air of officiality but to shove it under the carpet.

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 04:33 AM

That's why I said "may have ordered". But the indisputable fact remains that the superior failed to file a report on this. Thus, he gave the soldier a free pass. That should be punished too.

Or do you have sources that contradict this?

You have not shown sources that support this. I can't remember what the Department of Defense guy said, whose name eludes me, other than an investigation is in place. I think it was Ehud Barak though. Maybe I will look for the video I saw again, but it was fairly short. I think an Israeli JREFer could provide us with better information since it seems to have made news over there. Until then, look for the video on the BBC webpage, as I am pretty sure it's where I saw it.

But let me ask you this: If he indeed filed a report, how long do you think it will usually take for it to be processed? Maybe one, two weeks? Can you imagine it to be still in the given timeframe we have here? Or will you just assert no report was filed?

OK, let's turn it around. Presume you're in some kind of demonstration in your home town. The police apprehend you, blindfold you and one of them shoots you in the toe. Someone has videotaped it, you get the tape two weeks later.

Do you think this affects my judgement or what is this useless exercise for? I wouldn't know whether or not he filed a report on it, nor do I see a reason to turn this around or even apply the circumstances to myself.

I assume I would get the officers' names and inform the police about the incident, possibly take legal action. What I don't see is the Palestinian doing this. He said he was treated, got an aspirin and went his way. At least I can't remember him saying anything about filing a complaint etc.

What I wouldn't do though is to wait around two weeks for a butchered tape to appear.

What do you want to happen to the police officer who fired the shot, and to his superior who didn't file a report on it?

It's not my decision, it's the decision of the police and they got their regulations and procedures. Your question is needless and I have no knowledge of Israeli military jurisprudence in a case where, like you said, IDF forces were used as police with one member of the police force shooting an apprehended person in the foot / toe with a rubber bullet.

Because that's what's happened. The army here was simply doing police work, which is indeed one of their tasks in occupied territory.

Unless you can support your claim that no report was filed, no, that is not what happened.

What would I be protesting for or against anyway? Hopefully against the retarded ****tards who surround me longing for jihad, the destruction of Israel and martyrdom.

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 04:49 AM

Here's two articles: jpost article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1215331032843)
BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7516477.stm)

jpost one says:

The incident was not reported to Military Police until the B'tselem human rights organization received the footage on Sunday morning and immediately forwarded a copy to the Military Police Investigation Unit.

ETA: And another short one from infolive.tv (http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-26240-israelnews-soldier-who-shot-bound-palestinian-demonstrator-undergo-polygraph-te):

OC Central Command Maj.-Gen. Gadi Shamni has ordered an inquiry into why the incident wasn't reported immediately.

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 04:52 AM

What would I be protesting for or against anyway? Hopefully against the retarded ****tards who surround me longing for jihad, the destruction of Israel and martyrdom.

Looks like in this case I would have been violently protesting against further construction of the fence that holds off the ****tards I probably associate myself with.

Not my style really. But hey, if this made you happy, I'm happy to make you happy with this little roleplay! :p

* mrbaracuda throws a stone at ddt

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 05:11 AM

Wow. I know you can read German ddt:

Abbas-Sprecher nannte den Vorfall einen "Holocaust"

[...] Ein Sprecher des palästinensischen Präsidenten Mahmoud Abbas hatte nach dem Vorfall von einem "Holocaust" gesprochen und eine internationale Intervention gefordert.
Abbas spokesman calls the incident a 'Holocaust'

[...] A spokesperson of Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas had talked about a 'Holocaust' after the incident and demanded an international intervention.

kurier.at article (http://www.kurier.at/nachrichten/180566.php)

:boggled:

ddt

28th July 2008, 05:48 AM

You have not shown sources that support this. I can't remember what the Department of Defense guy said, whose name eludes me, other than an investigation is in place. I think it was Ehud Barak though. Maybe I will look for the video I saw again, but it was fairly short. I think an Israeli JREFer could provide us with better information since it seems to have made news over there. Until then, look for the video on the BBC webpage, as I am pretty sure it's where I saw it.

But let me ask you this: If he indeed filed a report, how long do you think it will usually take for it to be processed? Maybe one, two weeks? Can you imagine it to be still in the given timeframe we have here? Or will you just assert no report was filed?
It is clear from the B'Tselem page that the reaction from Barak only came after B'Tselem published the footage. It is also clear from that, that neither Military Police nor the Attorney General had been informed of the incident, and that after two weeks. Do you really think they were planning on doing that some day?

From your own Jerusalem Post link:
The incident was not reported to Military Police until the B'tselem human rights organization received the footage on Sunday morning and immediately forwarded a copy to the Military Police Investigation Unit.

Do you think this affects my judgement or what is this useless exercise for? I wouldn't know whether or not he filed a report on it, nor do I see a reason to turn this around or even apply the circumstances to myself.

I assume I would get the officers' names and inform the police about the incident, possibly take legal action.
I guess you'd be indeed the next day at your lawyer's to ask for legal advice, as well as sending out a press communique to TV and newspapers. I would.

I don't see is the Palestinian doing this. He said he was treated, got an aspirin and went his way. At least I can't remember him saying anything about filing a complaint etc.
Would it help? Give me one case where an IDF soldier was indeed punished for stepping over the line.

What I wouldn't do though is to wait around two weeks for a butchered tape to appear.
Who believes a Palestinian in Israel? Remember the case of the captain who emptied his gun at close range on a 13-year old girl. There were numerous Palestinian witnesses to the case, and none of them were heard.

It's not my decision, it's the decision of the police and they got their regulations and procedures. Your question is needless and I have no knowledge of Israeli military jurisprudence in a case where, like you said, IDF forces were used as police with one member of the police force shooting an apprehended person in the foot / toe with a rubber bullet.
You're trying to sugercoat the case? It was a metal bullet with rubber coating. The IDF regulations say to not fire them within 40 meters range.

Unless you can support your claim that no report was filed, no, that is not what happened.
See your own link. It was not reported to the relevant authorities until the tape was sent by B'Tselem to the Military Police.

BTW, when you look closely at the tape, the commander's story is very unbelievable. He sees the soldier carefully taking aim and again taking aim at the victim's foot. He hadn't commanded to really shoot? Come on. The taking aim was a senseless exercise without shooting, as the victim was blindfolded.

Gurdur

28th July 2008, 05:52 AM

.... Unless you can support your claim that no report was filed, no, that is not what happened.

Oh bollocks. From the Israel News link, the one you gave yourself, so I assume you find it acceptable:

The IDF soldier caught on tape two weeks ago firing a rubber bullet at a blindfolded and bound Palestinian demonstrator in the West Bank is due on Wednesday to undergo a polygraph test along with his commanding officer. The soldier claims the officer told him to shoot the demonstrator in the incident near the Palestinian village of Nil'in, while the officer denies giving such an order. A 14-year-old resident of the West Bank village filmed the shooting and gave the tape to the human rights group B'Tselem. OC Central Command Maj.-Gen. Gadi Shamni has ordered an inquiry into why the incident wasn't reported immediately.

So why the evasion?

Wow. I know you can read German ddt ....

Who gives a stuff about militant Palestinian rhetoric? How about dealing with the actual point, which is:

one soldier fires at a prisoner, who is bound and held
no report is made
The unit is stupid enough to get themselves filmed
The Military Police very properly immediately launch an investigation both into the actual incident and also as to why the unit commander filed no report at the time.

Bloody hell, mrbaracuda, it really doesn't matter what the Palestinians say, this is all about following ROE, and rule of law.

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 06:16 AM

You're trying to sugercoat the case?

Breach of Membership Agreement removed.. You asked me what I want to be done to that soldier in that case. I'm not part of a lynch mob.

Oh bollocks. From the Israel News link, the one you gave yourself, so I assume you find it acceptable:

So why the evasion?

Oh yea, I am totally evading something here when I post it myself. Something I hadn't seen / read before. Breach of Membership Agreement removed.

GreNME

28th July 2008, 06:23 AM

Oh yea, I am totally evading something here when I post it myself. Something I hadn't seen / read before.

You have yet to actually respond to what's being pointed out to you.

one soldier fires at a prisoner, who is bound and held
no report is made
The unit is stupid enough to get themselves filmed
The Military Police very properly immediately launch an investigation both into the actual incident and also as to why the unit commander filed no report at the time.

Bloody hell, mrbaracuda, it really doesn't matter what the Palestinians say, this is all about following ROE, and rule of law.

I agree with this.

ddt

28th July 2008, 06:28 AM

Breach of Membership Agreement removed.. You asked me what I want to be done to that soldier in that case. I'm not part of a lynch mob.
I didn't say so, and neither am I. My "sugarcoat" comment was about the nature of the bullet. But you're (were) using strong words for a toyfish! :) :boxedin:

Oh yea, I am totally evading something here when I post it myself. Something I hadn't seen / read before.
It wouldn't be the first case of a poster providing a link which contradicts his/her own stance.

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 07:30 AM

You have yet to actually respond to what's being pointed out to you.

Why bother when you get crap like that. He didn't support it, then I support his position and I get crap of evasion and sugarcoating? I'm done with them.

GreNME

28th July 2008, 07:54 AM

Why bother when you get crap like that. He didn't support it, then I support his position and I get crap of evasion and sugarcoating? I'm done with them.

There's no need to be aggressive with me. Right under that statement of mine I quoted the actual crux of what Gurdur was saying. Surely you can admit that what I quoted was a reasonable stance.

GreyICE

28th July 2008, 08:04 AM

Well Mrbaracuda is setting up some nice strawmen here. Hang them? Execute them? *sigh*

Yes, obviously the only options for punishment are do nothing or kill them. There is no middle ground. Welcome to false dichotomy hell.

How about dishonerable discharge from military service?

mrbaracuda

28th July 2008, 08:09 AM

There's no need to be aggressive with me. Right under that statement of mine I quoted the actual crux of what Gurdur was saying. Surely you can admit that what I quoted was a reasonable stance.

Didn't intend to be. I had this 'why the evasion' crap from him before for no reason and it's uncalled for when I am merely assessing the situation. So he can bugger off if he wants to continue with that crap.

Well Mrbaracuda is setting up some nice strawmen here. Hang them? Execute them? *sigh*

Yes, obviously the only options for punishment are do nothing or kill them. There is no middle ground. Welcome to false dichotomy hell.

No, but you are. Or you are sarcasm impaired and haven't seen much of the Fool.

How about dishonerable discharge from military service?

Yea, how about that? When will you fly to Israel and propose that to them and to find out who to discharge? I can't wait.

GreyICE

28th July 2008, 08:17 AM

No, but you are. Or you are sarcasm impaired and haven't seen much of the Fool.You're deliberately overstating the penalty anyone would even suggest be applied to derail the debate. It's not sarcasm, it's a dishonest tactic, and one of the reasons that the quote "Sarcasm is the first resort of a weak mind" is usually true.

Yea, how about that? When will you fly to Israel and propose that to them and to find out who to discharge? I can't wait. As soon as you book the plane tickets to fly to Israel and argue against me.

JoeEllison

28th July 2008, 08:24 AM

Gurdur

29th July 2008, 03:03 PM

I'm not part of a lynch mob.

And neither am I. How about you calm down, and we can discuss it sensibly?

GreNME

29th July 2008, 03:37 PM

And neither am I. How about you calm down, and we can discuss it sensibly?

That's a ridiculous request.

This is, after all, a discussion of an incident involving an Israeli, a Palestinian, and a gun.

Gurdur

29th July 2008, 03:47 PM

That's a ridiculous request. This is, after all, a discussion of an incident involving an Israeli, a Palestinian, and a gun.

Major points, major points for best quip of the day! And since there have been a lot of quips today (mainly in Forum Management), the congrats are well-deserved.

RandFan

29th July 2008, 05:14 PM

ddt

29th July 2008, 05:34 PM

Maybe I'm the only one that noticed but the issue actually is one of concern for Israel. There are policies against such actions. I've no idea what should happen but if a Palestinian mistreats an Israeli in custody what are the policies and procedures?

Oh, and no, no Tu Quoque. What the soldier did was wrong. Period.

Israel v. Palestine IMO is simply a mess. I can't condone error (criminal, atrocity, whatever) on the part of Israel. However I can see an appreciable difference in that Israel recognizes that it is possible to commit war crimes. For Palestinians, right or wrong, it is simply a means to further a cause.

Your post in the end turns out to be a comparison between Israel and Palestinians, and I don't agree with your conclusion.

If you want to compare with how Israel treats war crimes by its security personnel - IDF soldiers - then you should look at how the PA treats war crimes by its security personnel. There's not many cases of the latter. IIRC, recently a couple of PA security officers were convicted for shooting an Israeli - to ten or more years prison.

Convictions of IDF personnel are very rare, and when an IDF soldier is convicted, the punishment is quite symbolical.

RandFan

29th July 2008, 07:15 PM

Your post in the end turns out to be a comparison between Israel and Palestinians, and I don't agree with your conclusion.

If you want to compare with how Israel treats war crimes by its security personnel - IDF soldiers - then you should look at how the PA treats war crimes by its security personnel. There's not many cases of the latter. IIRC, recently a couple of PA security officers were convicted for shooting an Israeli - to ten or more years prison.

Convictions of IDF personnel are very rare, and when an IDF soldier is convicted, the punishment is quite symbolical.Hey, I've been wrong before. I'd like to see something more than assertions though.

Autolite

29th July 2008, 09:04 PM

I am thinking that it is likely that it is the superior officer who should be at fault. Keep in mind that, under our laws anyway, a lower ranking individual cannot disobey an order unless they are certain that it is an unlawful command. In order to refuse an order, the subordinate must be absolutely positive that the command given was an illegal order in the view of a military court. In a case such as this, the officer in charge might even be inclined to give an illegal order if he/she feels that the subordinate may not be experienced or knowledgeable enough to determine what would be considered illegal. In any case, should the SHTF (Stuff-Hit-The-Fan), the officer knows that lying is an option. It wouldn't exactly be the first time that someone in the military (in a position of authority) lied to cover their butt (sarcasm off).

Unless a subordinate is absolutely certain that it is an illegal order, they must do what they are told to do. Anyhow, the bottom line is that a superior officer is suppose to be responsible for controlling their subordinates. Don't crucify the soldier...

ddt

30th July 2008, 03:00 AM

Hey, I've been wrong before. I'd like to see something more than assertions though.
You're absolutely right I should back up my assertions with facts. I'll hunt for links. In the meantime, do you agree with me that:

If you want to compare with how Israel treats war crimes by its security personnel - IDF soldiers - then you should look at how the PA treats war crimes by its security personnel.

is the right comparison?

ddt

30th July 2008, 03:32 AM

IIRC, recently a couple of PA security officers were convicted for shooting an Israeli - to ten or more years prison.

This was the case I was thinking of (article in Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947206.html), 01/23/2008):
A special Palestinian Authority court in Hebron on Tuesday sentenced two PA employees to 15 years in jail for shooting dead two Israelis hiking near Hebron last month.

The two, 24-year-old Amar Taha, a Palestinian police officer, and 26-year-old Ali Dandanes, a PA court clerk, turned themselves in after killing Ahikam Amihai and David Rubin roughly three weeks ago, fearing they would be captured by Israeli security forces.

Not exactly security personnel on duty - but one of the two perps was a police officer.

gtc

30th July 2008, 03:46 AM

There doesn't seem to be anyone who disputes the general description of events, so any intelligent person would assume that someone is doing some time in the brig for this, and several people are going to get back marks on their records for assaulting an unarmed prisoner.

You have experience with firearms, as does TF. Given that the bullet only seems to have hit the toe (if the versions of events are as given in the article), how likely is it that the soldier intended to hit the person? Or is it more likely that he intended to only scare the person by discharging the weapon near him?

In both cases, what is the punishment in the US military?

In the meantime, do you agree with me that:

If you want to compare with how Israel treats war crimes by its security personnel - IDF soldiers - then you should look at how the PA treats war crimes by its security personnel. There's not many cases of the latter. IIRC, recently a couple of PA security officers were convicted for shooting an Israeli - to ten or more years prison.

is the right comparison?

I am not convinced that it is. It seems too convenient to ignore the armed wings of Hamas and Fatah. There are precedents for counting the armed wings of political parties as part of the state aparatus - the PLA is under the control of the Chinese Communist Party and the SA and SS were under the control of the Nazi party. However, I would agree that it is a grey area.

gtc

30th July 2008, 03:49 AM

Not exactly security personnel on duty - but one of the two perps was a police officer.

It is a good sign but I am not sure if they would count for the argument you were making.

JoeEllison

30th July 2008, 04:05 AM

You have experience with firearms, as does TF. Given that the bullet only seems to have hit the toe (if the versions of events are as given in the article), how likely is it that the soldier intended to hit the person? Or is it more likely that he intended to only scare the person by discharging the weapon near him?

In both cases, what is the punishment in the US military?

Part of the training in the Marines, and as far as I know it goes for the rest of the services as well goes like this:
1. Treat every weapon as if it was loaded.
2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Keep your weapon on safe, until you intend to fire.

You would never fire your weapon to "scare" someone, certainly not a prisoner, and it is hard to claim that it is an accidental discharge.

As far as punishment? I've seen people tackled for not having their weapon pointed downrange. And once there was an unfortunate incident where two guys on guard duty were goofing around with their shotguns, and one blew the other one's head off. Not only did they throw the shooter in the brig, they also busted that night's Sergeant of the Guard down a rank for being the person in charge when it happened even though he was miles away when the shooting occurred. So I think shooting someone in the foot, and ordering them to be shot would both carry pretty severe punishments including jail time and loss of rank, if not outright discharge.

JoeEllison

30th July 2008, 04:08 AM

Autolite

30th July 2008, 09:10 AM

No, do "crucify" the soldier, since he must have been instructed that you aren't allowed to shoot unarmed and bound prisoners. You just aren't. It is a fundamental rule that it is impossible to pretend is something that a soldier wouldn't know.

I agree that a reasonable person would know that such an order would be illegal. However, I'd be willing to give the soldier the benefit of the doubt if he claims that he thought he was following a legitimate command. I've spent most of my adult life in the forces and I have on several occasion encountered other military personnel who just were not exactly all that "brilliant". It is not likely, but it's not at all impossible that the soldier who fired the shot didn't understand that he was given an illegal order...

Mycroft

31st July 2008, 01:03 AM

This was the case I was thinking of (article in Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947206.html), 01/23/2008):

Sure, they get 15 year sentences, but do they serve any real time? The Palestinians have a history of locking up those that kill Israelis for a short time, then either quietly releasing them when the media attention is off, or organizing "spontaneous" demonstrations where demonstrators storm their prisons and release anyone held.

In this specific case:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3520837,00.html

The Palestinian terrorists who murdered two Israeli hikers last December were granted a furlough from a Hebron prison and were asked to return a few days later, sources in the West Bank city told Ynet Tuesday, this after the IDF and Shin Bet were looking into a report according to which at least one of the terrorists had escaped.

So they were locked up, released, and then locked up again the moment Shin Bet asked about them. Are they in jail now? Who know? This was back in March, anything could have happened since then.

mrbaracuda

31st July 2008, 01:34 AM

I think the telling part is where it says they'd rather be in Pally prison than in Israeli prison. I wonder why.

Gurdur

31st July 2008, 04:31 AM

mrbaracuda, see this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3901695&postcount=30) and above; deal with it.

Mycroft

31st July 2008, 10:15 AM

I think the telling part is where it says they'd rather be in Pally prison than in Israeli prison. I wonder why.

It's certainly worth taking a look at what happens in Palestinian prisons. Apparently not so bad for some prisoners:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L10917059.htm

GAZA, July 10 (Reuters) - About 100 inmates in Gaza's main prison are growing accustomed to a different kind of life behind bars now that Hamas Islamists have taken charge.

For one thing, the prison barber, himself a convict, has posted a sign saying he no longer shaves beards, an abstinence symbolic of Islamic religious devotion.

And graffiti, scrawled by Hamas fighters who seized the facility in their rout of the secular Fatah faction in a brief Gaza civil war last month, advises that "Islam is the solution" and pledges "No injustice from now on".

For the common criminals and clutch of alleged collaborators with Israel in the Hamas-run prison, that has translated into promises by the movement's officials to review their cases.

I wonder how Hamas would "review" the cases of the murderers of those Israeli hikers given the chance?

Much worse for others:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1184168543780&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

A Palestinian man detained by Islamic Jihad members in the Gaza Strip last week on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel has been found dead in a Hamas-controlled prison, sources in Gaza City said Wednesday.

...<snip>...

The spokesman said his body was discovered early Wednesday morning and was transferred to Shifa Hospital because the victim's family refused to bury him out of fear for their lives.

A Palestinian journalist in Gaza City said Duhmush had been handed over to Hamas a few days after he was captured by Islamic Jihad members. "I heard from people who saw the body that he had been brutally tortured in the Hamas prison," he said.

Wow, the family fears to bury him.

Tailgater

31st July 2008, 10:19 AM

I'm not surprised there was no report if there was no serious injury. Police don't file a report every time they whack someone with a club. It doesn't make what the soldier did right, but he got caught with his pants down. I would buy the fact that he was ordered to give him a scare and send him on his way. If he meant to hurt the guy, the bullet would have been in a place a little more meaty than a toe followed by a few fists to the gut. That being said, some demerits, suspension, and whatever the charge is for assault I guess would be the way to go, but I don't see this comparable to attempted murder or torture or anything like that.

ETA: I wouldn't mind seeing the edited parts of the video. It's very choppy as to what led up to this.

mrbaracuda

31st July 2008, 11:17 AM

It's certainly worth taking a look at what happens in Palestinian prisons. Apparently not so bad for some prisoners:

And when you look at what Kuntar enjoyed (getting quite chubby, having almost completed a degree etc) you got to ask yourself why a Pally would rather go to Hamas or maybe PA jail.

I don't even want to know what 'justice' is for Hamas when they review the cases according to Islamic laws.

* mrbaracuda shudders

I'm not surprised there was no report if there was no serious injury.

And that's why I'm not sure what I'd do if it happened to me. Punch the police guy maybe. Get my aspirin and go home.

If I were some uppity Pal throwing rocks and bottles around while shouting 'Death to Israel' on the construction site of the very fence that holds off my retarded neighbours and cousing, and my toe was injured.. well okay maybe I would use it for propaganda. Presumably works well with certain crowds.

:popcorn1

Gurdur

31st July 2008, 12:03 PM

.... And that's why I'm not sure what I'd do if it happened to me. Punch the police guy maybe.

I begin to see why Gregor has the opinion of you that he does. You're being utterly ridiculous all over again. You, punch the guy who has a gun, while his mates stand around? Sorry, I'm just intensely skeptical of your bravado.

If I were some uppity Pal

Better learn some more English; the phrase "uppitty [ethnic label]" has a long and nasty history. If that disturbs you at all. Or do you find racist bigotry OK?

.. well okay maybe I would use it for propaganda. Presumably works well with certain crowds.

Presumably you prefer being the rightwing version of Oliver to actually addressing the issues. Oh well. I'll just have to readjust my own attitudes and treat you both the same.

mrbaracuda

31st July 2008, 01:08 PM

I begin to see why Gregor has the opinion of you that he does. You're being utterly ridiculous all over again. You, punch the guy who has a gun, while his mates stand around? Sorry, I'm just intensely skeptical of your bravado.

Gregor who?
It's all about martyrdom, Gurdur! Shahid business and all.

Better learn some more English; the phrase "uppitty [ethnic label]" has a long and nasty history. If that disturbs you at all. Or do you find racist bigotry OK?

Oh? Well then cry me a river and write to the paper. Im taking it back!

Car1aZT-XMA

Presumably you prefer being the rightwing version of Oliver to actually addressing the issues. Oh well. I'll just have to readjust my own attitudes and treat you both the same.

Uh. I told you already: I'm done with you here. I guess your place on my ignore list was justified after all. Now get out of my country, thank you.

The Fool

1st August 2008, 03:56 AM

It's certainly worth taking a look at what happens in Palestinian prisons. Apparently not so bad for some prisoners:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L10917059.htm

I wonder how Hamas would "review" the cases of the murderers of those Israeli hikers given the chance?

Much worse for others:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1184168543780&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Wow, the family fears to bury him.
some nice diversionary stories about nasty Palestinians. As the guy that was shot in the foot probably was not involved in your diversionary tales do you have any comments on what should be done about what he actually was involved in....him being shot in the foot?

Oliver

2nd August 2008, 12:43 AM

Better learn some more English; the phrase "uppitty ...

Fixed. Back to the OP now? :confused:

RandFan

2nd August 2008, 12:45 PM

some nice diversionary stories about nasty Palestinians. As the guy that was shot in the foot probably was not involved in your diversionary tales do you have any comments on what should be done about what he actually was involved in....him being shot in the foot? The post was a rebuttal and not simply an arbitrary red herring. Mycroft was correct in posting the information as the post he was responding to was using an anecdote as proof of something. Mycroft's post shows that the anecdote might not be the proof the poster thought it was.

The Fool

2nd August 2008, 04:19 PM

The post was a rebuttal and not simply an arbitrary red herring. Mycroft was correct in posting the information as the post he was responding to was using an anecdote as proof of something. Mycroft's post shows that the anecdote might not be the proof the poster thought it was.

What was the post rebutting exactly?? someone made a claim about palestinian prisons?

Some people are most uncomfortable when viewing things that they should condemn, yet can't condemn. It makes them wobbly...they must change the subject.

still, we can wait and see if Mycroft has an opiniion on the OP or wishes to continue posting links to stories about nasty palies....

RandFan

2nd August 2008, 04:35 PM

What was the post rebutting exactly? See post #37. There really is a point being made. You might not agree with it but at least understand the point.

The Fool

2nd August 2008, 04:49 PM

See post #37. There really is a point being made. You might not agree with it but at least understand the point.

a point was made?

ok, I guess it was too much to ask that the OP be discussed. Lets all exchange posts about palestinian prisons until we all figure out that nobody is trying to claim they are anything other than what we all agree they are.....ooops, what about IDF shooting prisoners in the foot? well.....ummmm.....geee....hang on, what about palestinian prisons? they are like country clubs!!!!

RandFan

2nd August 2008, 04:55 PM

a point was made? Yes.

Lets all exchange posts about palestinian prisons until we all figure out that nobody is trying to claim they are anything other than what we all agree they are That's fine with me but it's not the point being made.

...what about IDF shooting prisoners in the foot? Hmmmm.....

Uh, it's wrong?

ddt

2nd August 2008, 05:19 PM

a point was made?
Yes, it is an outgrowth of my reaction in post #34 to a point made by RandFan in post #33. That shifted discussion to the comparison of punishments, first for war crimes, later for other crimes, between Israel and Palestine.

This whole discussion is my fault; my apologies for not yet coming back to it. I haven't yet looked at the links provided, will do so asap.

And RandFan explicitly in post #33 already condemned the case in the OP.

RandFan

2nd August 2008, 05:38 PM

To be fair, my post can be seen as a red herring and clearly it lead to an off topic discussion so ddt, I will accept responsibility for being the instigator.

I try and avoid these threads because I see the issue as so lost at the moment.

I will also confess that I tend to see Israel in a better light than the Palestinians and I think that could be due to my upbringing and cultural and religious based biases.

I don't think Israel is innocent at all and I'm more than willing to condemn Israeli atrocities.

ddt

2nd August 2008, 06:23 PM

To be fair, my post can be seen as a red herring and clearly it lead to an off topic discussion so ddt, I will accept responsibility for being the instigator.
My my, we're both trying to take the blame for it. :) Let's compromise and take joint responsibility, OK? Hey, it's nice to see you back with regular contributions!

I try and avoid these threads because I see the issue as so lost at the moment.
I can feel with you - and it ends up with rehashing the same arguments over and over.

I will also confess that I tend to see Israel in a better light than the Palestinians and I think that could be due to my upbringing and cultural and religious based biases.

I don't think Israel is innocent at all and I'm more than willing to condemn Israeli atrocities.
I was raised with a critical stance towards Israel; but likewise, I condemn atrocities on both sides.

As to our derail: I'm afraid a serious comparison between Israel and Palestinians on punishing war crimes (or non-war crimes against persons of "the other party") is nigh impossible, or at most will lead to digging up piles of dirt on both sides.

RandFan

2nd August 2008, 06:46 PM

My my, we're both trying to take the blame for it. :) Let's compromise and take joint responsibility, OK? Hey, it's nice to see you back with regular contributions!

I can feel with you - and it ends up with rehashing the same arguments over and over.

I was raised with a critical stance towards Israel; but likewise, I condemn atrocities on both sides.

As to our derail: I'm afraid a serious comparison between Israel and Palestinians on punishing war crimes (or non-war crimes against persons of "the other party") is nigh impossible, or at most will lead to digging up piles of dirt on both sides.:) If you and I can find agreement prehaps there is hope for humanity yet. ;)

ddt

2nd August 2008, 07:44 PM

:) If you and I can find agreement prehaps there is hope for humanity yet. ;)

:D :D
I think actually that we're much closer in our stances than our previous discussions give the impression - those disagreements were really quite blown-up differences in nuances.

RandFan

2nd August 2008, 10:24 PM

:D :D
I think actually that we're much closer in our stances than our previous discussions give the impression - those disagreements were really quite blown-up differences in nuances.:) Yeah but it's nice to think that there is hope yet for our species. :D

Mycroft

3rd August 2008, 12:36 AM

What was the post rebutting exactly?? someone made a claim about palestinian prisons?

Yes. Someone made a claim about how Palestinians punish their own.

Some people are most uncomfortable when viewing things that they should condemn, yet can't condemn. It makes them wobbly...they must change the subject.

You often make statements about my opinions that are unsupported by anything I've said and are wrong. One would think that over time you would learn better, yet you never do.

still, we can wait and see if Mycroft has an opiniion on the OP or wishes to continue posting links to stories about nasty palies....

Except I don't have any problem condemning the action. Soldiers should not be shooting prisoners. The soldier and his CO should be reprimanded.

Happy?

mrbaracuda

3rd August 2008, 03:00 AM

Happy?

Flagellate yourself and we'll see! You are lucky though. Personally, I pity the Fools who still do it by hand in the year 2008. We have advanced for a reason.

Gentlemen, I present to you - The Flagellator! :cool:

http://c.imagehost.org/0306/flag_large1.jpg

The Fool

3rd August 2008, 10:22 PM

Yes. Someone made a claim about how Palestinians punish their own.

You often make statements about my opinions that are unsupported by anything I've said and are wrong. One would think that over time you would learn better, yet you never do.

Except I don't have any problem condemning the action. Soldiers should not be shooting prisoners. The soldier and his CO should be reprimanded.

Happy?
reprimanded? OMG....why that harsh? where is your mercy?

How about this.....was it a crime? should they face criminal prosecution?

gtc

3rd August 2008, 10:29 PM

reprimanded? OMG....why that harsh? where is your mercy?

How about this.....was it a crime? should they face criminal prosecution?

The military authorities do seem to be investigating this incident. Is there any reason why you think the IDF is treating this any differently to, say, the Aussies would?

a_unique_person

3rd August 2008, 11:23 PM

The military authorities do seem to be investigating this incident. Is there any reason why you think the IDF is treating this any differently to, say, the Aussies would?

History.

gtc

3rd August 2008, 11:33 PM

OK, so tell me how what is happening in this case is different to what would happen in Australian army.

a_unique_person

4th August 2008, 03:22 AM

OK, so tell me how what is happening in this case is different to what would happen in Australian army.

If it follows the usual course, an investigation will drag on for a while, till everyone has forgotten about it, and the punishment will be trivial or non existent. I have linked before several times to an incident in which a 'training exercise' in defensive fire resulted in live ammunition being fired at a palestinian village, killing one occupant. The officer was promoted.

a_unique_person

4th August 2008, 03:28 AM

Here is a similar example.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2007/08/05/james-millers-idf-killer-may-soon-be-wanted-man-in-britain/

The IDF investigated the death and exonerated the commanding officer, Captain Hib al-Heib, who was subsequently promoted to company commander. The attorney general refused to press charges. If this had been a Palestinian civilian then this would be where it would be left. Justice would never be done and the IDF could continue to act with impunity.
However, James Miller was British and his family was not willing to let the matter rest. Nor was his documentary partner, who produced Death in Gaza, the triple Emmy-winning indictment of Miller’s killers, which exerted pressure on the British government to act. The family sued Israel. They pressed the British authorities for an inquest which found that Miller had been murdered. Key to this verdict was the film footage which documented his murder. This forced the British attorney general to take action, notifying the Israeli AG that if Israel did not take action against the soldiers involved that it would do so by demanding their extradition to face charges in Britain (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2199243.ece):

Mycroft

4th August 2008, 10:53 PM

reprimanded? OMG....why that harsh? where is your mercy?

How about this.....was it a crime? should they face criminal prosecution?

I use the term "reprimand" loosely to cover any range of punitive action that might arise from this instance. I don't think I need to specify their punishment any more that I should personally specify the punishments of those Palestinian-Arabs who killed the Israeli hikers we discussed earlier.

Do you think this rises to the level of criminal prosecution? I don't know, I'm not familiar with military justice. I'm pretty confident in saying it's wrong to shoot tied up prisoners, but the use of non-lethal ammo, the apparent intent to frighten rather than wound and the lack of lasting injury are powerful mitigating factors. I'm sure it hurt like a mo-fo, but it's still not Nguyen Ngoc Loan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nguyen.jpg) shooting that Viet Cong guy.

Nguyen Ngoc Loan, if you remember, was on the same side you were in that conflict.

So let's have your opinion. What specific punishment do you think is appropriate for that soldier and his commander?

Mycroft

4th August 2008, 10:57 PM

Here is a similar example.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2007/08/05/james-millers-idf-killer-may-soon-be-wanted-man-in-britain/

Huh?

In what way are these events similar?

The Fool

6th August 2008, 09:38 PM

I use the term "reprimand" loosely to cover any range of punitive action that might arise from this instance. I don't think I need to specify their punishment any more that I should personally specify the punishments of those Palestinian-Arabs who killed the Israeli hikers we discussed earlier.

I suppose those Arabs should be reprimanded as well eh?

Do you think this rises to the level of criminal prosecution? I don't know, I'm not familiar with military justice. I'm pretty confident in saying it's wrong to shoot tied up prisoners, but the use of non-lethal ammo, the apparent intent to frighten rather than wound and the lack of lasting injury are powerful mitigating factors. I'm sure it hurt like a mo-fo, but it's still not Nguyen Ngoc Loan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nguyen.jpg) shooting that Viet Cong guy.

sorry, thought for a brief moment you had expressed an opinion....turned into another "I don't know" at the last minute.

Nguyen Ngoc Loan, if you remember, was on the same side you were in that conflict.

I was In the Australian Army....We didn't usually execute prisoners....we just gave them to the south vietnamese who would take care of that sort of stuff.
but your wonderfull new all encompasing term "reprimand" would cover what should have happened to Nguyen too...he should have been reprimanded.

So let's have your opinion. What specific punishment do you think is appropriate for that soldier and his commander?
dishonorable discharge and prison term of around 3 months or so for anyone proven to have ordered the act....you can drop the prison time for the shooter if it is proven he was ordered. The investigation would have to be done by the Israeli Judiciary, the IDF is untrustworthy when it comes to investigating its own...Wouldn't that seem reasonable for the army that self professes its own high morality? Do you hold an opinion.....any sort of opinion?

Mycroft

8th August 2008, 02:30 AM

I suppose those Arabs should be reprimanded as well eh?

By accounts they were “reprimanded” with 15 year prison sentences. I think the only issue in question is if they serve those sentences in prison, at home, at the local coffee shop, or if someone just forgets to ask them to come back to jail after being given a holiday pass.

sorry, thought for a brief moment you had expressed an opinion....turned into another "I don't know" at the last minute.

Sometimes your obsession with me is downright cute. :)

I was In the Australian Army....We didn't usually execute prisoners....we just gave them to the south vietnamese who would take care of that sort of stuff.

How many prisoners did you execute? Were you prosecuted in any way? Did anyone in your unit ever do anything illegal that was covered up by other members of your unit?

dishonorable discharge and prison term of around 3 months or so for anyone proven to have ordered the act....you can drop the prison time for the shooter if it is proven he was ordered.

Alright, sure.

Do you hold an opinion.....any sort of opinion?

You’re funny. You claim I don’t have any opinions, yet you obsess over arguing with me. Then you make up the most outrageous positions for me to take and get mad when I don’t claim them as my own.

Have you ever considered just paying attention to the other guy’s point of view without trying guess what he’s not saying or to impose your own presumptions on him?

The Fool

8th August 2008, 08:28 PM

By accounts they were “reprimanded” with 15 year prison sentences. I think the only issue in question is if they serve those sentences in prison, at home, at the local coffee shop, or if someone just forgets to ask them to come back to jail after being given a holiday pass.

Sometimes your obsession with me is downright cute. :)

How many prisoners did you execute? Were you prosecuted in any way? Did anyone in your unit ever do anything illegal that was covered up by other members of your unit?

Alright, sure.

You’re funny. You claim I don’t have any opinions, yet you obsess over arguing with me. Then you make up the most outrageous positions for me to take and get mad when I don’t claim them as my own.

Have you ever considered just paying attention to the other guy’s point of view without trying guess what he’s not saying or to impose your own presumptions on him?

more of the usual attempts to change the subject, but no opinion on what should be done about the incident. Still having a problem forming an opinion? I'd be happy to discuss your point of view when you finally adopt one. When it gets to discussing Israeli actions that even you can't support you go all coy...

as for obcessions with you...well, you spend 90% of the time on ignore. I sometimes take you off to see if you can express a position and stay on it but.........taking this example you want to discuss Palestinian prisons, the australian army in vietnam....anything.....but so far as the OP is concerned you do your duty and say the guy should be "reprimanded" If thats all you have to offer to the topic then I invite you to go join another thread where you can whine about Arabs to your hearts content.

devnull

8th August 2008, 11:12 PM

http://www.btselem.org/english/Firearms/20080721_Nilin_Shooting.asp

What action, if any, should be taken against the responsible people? What action do you think will happen?

Im not sure you can force these websites not to use embedded Windows Media Player.... I guess the only action possible is to simply not watch their videos?

Mycroft

9th August 2008, 02:39 PM

more of the usual attempts to change the subject, but no opinion on what should be done about the incident. Still having a problem forming an opinion?

Again, you ask for an opinion then when I give it to you, you claim I haven't. Your selective blindness is amusing. Apparently you missed the following opinions offered:

1) I condemn the action.

2) Soldiers should not be shooting prisoners.

3) The soldier and his CO should be reprimanded.

4) Although wrong, there are still mitigating circumstances. Non-lethal ammunition, apparent lack of intent to harm, and no lasting injury.

5) The action in no way rises to the level of other prisoner-shooting instances.

6) I'm sure getting shot in the foot with a rubber-coated bullet hurts like a [Edited for Rule 10]
7) I doubt that this rises to the level of criminal prosecution.

8) But if it does, I don't object to the punishments you suggest.

There. Eight different opinions, all directly on the topic you asked for, yet you got selective blindness and can't see any of them. Go figure. In the past I've learned it helps you get over this blindness by reprinting them in a larger font and bright colours. Do I need to do that now?

I'd be happy to discuss your point of view when you finally adopt one.

I've made it easy for you. Have at it.

When it gets to discussing Israeli actions that even you can't support you go all coy...

As I said earlier, you often make statements about my opinions that are unsupported by anything I've said and are wrong. One would think that over time you would learn better, yet you never do.

as for obcessions with you...well, you spend 90% of the time on ignore.

Careful, your nose is growing. ;)

Please be civil.