Yay, US Govt to apologize to blacks for slavery

[bigred]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/27/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4297618.shtml

I'm half-surprised they didn't include provisions for "reparations." I esp love the "Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history.." :rolleyes: Apparently this guy was a math major.

Hey wait a sec.......why aren't they apologizing to the Irish? They weren't slaves, but encountered a great deal of racism and oppression when they came into this country. Ditto the Chinese (er except for those great restaurants).

And what about an apology to women?? They couldn't even vote for the longest time, and let's not get started about being unable to land jobs, spousal abuse, etc etc.

fn US govt. "The man" STILL oppressin.

[GreNME]

I do love me some middle-class white male angst.

[kedo1981]

There was a great program on the Nat Geo channel the other night called “Perilous Journeys”.
It was about the last of the caravans that travel across the Sahara.
Beautiful tv if ever there was.
Today they transport salt mainly but in the old days it was human beings.
This according to the program was going on for a thousand years (the US is 230 some odd years old) with millions of people being walked to their deaths in the dessert so a few would last to be sold into bondage.
The old African Muslim gentleman that was the leader of the caravan lamented of the old days of slavery.
Does the US need to apologize, yes.
But we should also point out that we had slavery for just seventy five years and that there was always a movement to end it.
Can anyone name another country where a war was fought by free people to end the enslavement of a people that many of them probably wouldn’t share a meal with but thought they should be free anyway? (sorry for the run on)

If any culture should be expected to apologize IT”S ISLAM.

[Ian Osborne]

Slavery was an accepted fact of life for far longer than it's been considered abhorrent. It wasn't always white people enslaving black people either. Yes, countries which accepted slavery as an institution should apologise - once - but it should also be kept in perspective.

[BPSCG]

I'm still waiting for my apology. I keep emailing the Egyptians to apologize for enslaving my great23-grandfather, but they just write back, "Infidel pig-dog, how dare you have the effrontery to ask for an apology when you should be begging not to be beheaded as befits all unbelievers; such is the word of Allah, who is truly all-knowing, all-just. Truly, your day of reckoning is nigh, lest you follow in the ways of the Prophet (PBUH); renounce your infidel beliefs, for truly, Allah is wise, merciful..."

(It goes on like this for several pages.)

*sigh*

[mrbaracuda]

Go GOP-guy! :p

"Infidel pig-dog, how dare you have the effrontery to ask for an apology when you should be begging not to be beheaded as befits all unbelievers;

Hey urm uh, see ya in Armstrong's signature! ;)

[bigred]

Slavery was an accepted fact of life for far longer than it's been considered abhorrent. It wasn't always white people enslaving black people either. Watch it mister, you're messing w/the almighty white liberal guilt trips. Nowdays that's blasphemy.

I'm still waiting for my apology. I keep emailing the Egyptians to apologize for enslaving my great23-grandfather, but they just write back, "Infidel pig-dog, how dare you have the effrontery to ask for an apology when you should be begging not to be beheaded as befits all unbelievers; such is the word of Allah, who is truly all-knowing, all-just. Truly, your day of reckoning is nigh, lest you follow in the ways of the Prophet (PBUH); renounce your infidel beliefs, for truly, Allah is wise, merciful..."

(It goes on like this for several pages.)

*sigh*
You're white, I presume, so who cares? Shut up and get back to apologizing to bla.......OOPSIMEAN.... "African Americans."

[GreNME]

Watch it mister, you're messing w/the almighty white liberal guilt trips. Nowdays that's blasphemy.


You're white, I presume, so who cares? Shut up and get back to apologizing to bla.......OOPSIMEAN.... "African Americans."

Is there anyone in your world who doesn't agree with you that isn't a caricature? If not, I'm really not going to bother making a serious reply.

[MaGZ]

Obama doesn’t want words he wants cash.

http://starbulletin.com/2008/07/28/news/story05.html


"I consistently believe that when it comes to whether it's Native Americans or African-American issues or reparations, the most important thing for the U.S. government to do is not just offer words, but offer deeds."

[Ian Osborne]

Deeds (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deeds), cash (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cash)

For your homework, review the difference between the two.

[H3LL]

Wasn't 600,000+ deaths enough of an apology?

360,222 for being right (Union),

and

258,000 fo being wrong (Confederate).

.

[H3LL]

Luckily, African's themselves have no-one to apologise to with the eradication of competing tribes and their culture.

Is there going to be a "Thank you" from them for providing the means and equipment to destroy neighbouring tribes, expand their tribal boundaries and power, accumulate wealth and shipping the survivors thousands of miles away so as to remove their language and identity so there were few complaints afterwards.

Just asking.

.

[GroundStrength]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/27/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4297618.shtml

I'm half-surprised they didn't include provisions for "reparations." I esp love the "Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history.." :rolleyes: Apparently this guy was a math major.

Hey wait a sec.......why aren't they apologizing to the Irish? They weren't slaves, but encountered a great deal of racism and oppression when they came into this country. Ditto the Chinese (er except for those great restaurants).

And what about an apology to women?? They couldn't even vote for the longest time, and let's not get started about being unable to land jobs, spousal abuse, etc etc.

fn US govt. "The man" STILL oppressin.


The United States Federal Government can apologize if it feels the need to.

I who had nothing to do with it, shall not.

[geni]

I'm still waiting for my apology. I keep emailing the Egyptians to apologize for enslaving my great23-grandfather, but they just write back, "Infidel pig-dog, how dare you have the effrontery to ask for an apology when you should be begging not to be beheaded as befits all unbelievers; such is the word of Allah, who is truly all-knowing, all-just. Truly, your day of reckoning is nigh, lest you follow in the ways of the Prophet (PBUH); renounce your infidel beliefs, for truly, Allah is wise, merciful..."

(It goes on like this for several pages.)

*sigh*

I'm not sure slavery in egypt goes back that far.

[geni]

Can anyone name another country where a war was fought by free people to end the enslavement of a people that many of them probably wouldn’t share a meal with but thought they should be free anyway? (sorry for the run on)

Britian. Although to be fair that was less a war than a series of militry actions to kill anyone trying it.

[Kestrel]

Most of my ancestors were too dang poor to own slaves.

An exception was my great4 grandfather who had inherited slaves from his father. He moved from Kentucky to Illinois in 1831, set his slaves free, gave them some land and helped them start a farm.

I don't feel any need to apologize for him.

[BPSCG]

Most of my ancestors were too dang poor to own slaves.

An exception was my great4 grandfather who had inherited slaves from his father. He moved from Kentucky to Illinois in 1831, set his slaves free, gave them some land and helped them start a farm.

I don't feel any need to apologize for him.What about your great5 grandfather, you racist?

[CFLarsen]

Vikings don't apologize.

Vikings just go on another raid.

[geni]

Vikings don't apologize.

Vikings just go on another raid.

Vikings wimp out when faced by decent costal defences and navys.

[CFLarsen]

Vikings wimp out when faced by decent costal defences and navys.

That's just historical revisionism.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Yet another thoughtful discourse on racism on the forum.

Oh, and you forgot to include "political correctness gone mad!!!" and "liberul masochistic guilt". I'm sure that would help the discussion be even more substantive.

[BPSCG]

Yet another thoughtful discourse on racism on the forum.

Oh, and you forgot to include "political correctness gone mad!!!" and "liberul masochistic guilt". I'm sure that would help the discussion be even more substantive.And your contribution towards elevating the discussion is...

[balrog666]

How many slaves did the US government own?

[mrbaracuda]

Yet another thoughtful discourse on racism on the forum.

Oh, and you forgot to include "political correctness gone mad!!!" and "liberul masochistic guilt". I'm sure that would help the discussion be even more substantive.

Funn you'd show up, racist Buddha! ;)

[Tsukasa Buddha]

And your contribution towards elevating the discussion is...

I'm sorry, was there anyone here interested in an honest discussion? I seemed to have missed them amongst all the people trying to be witty.

[Kestrel]

How many slaves did the US government own?

That's actually an interesting question.

It's clear that slaves would have provided labor for the Federal government in states where slavery was legal. But were any actually owned by the government?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

That's actually an interesting question.

It's clear that slaves would have provided labor for the Federal government in states where slavery was legal. But were any actually owned by the government?

I think it is more of a matter of the government allowing it to take place and enforcing it, like in the Supreme Court Dred Scott case, which found that Black people could not be citizens and allowed slavery in all States.

[GreNME]

I'm sorry, was there anyone here interested in an honest discussion? I seemed to have missed them amongst all the people trying to be witty.

Precisely. It seems to me the thread was started with an attempt at pith that just comes across as being bitter. I'm not sure at which point any honest attempt at discussion was made.

[BPSCG]

Precisely. It seems to me the thread was started with an attempt at pith that just comes across as being bitter. I'm not sure at which point any honest attempt at discussion was made.Maybe because the idea is ridiculous throughout its length, breadth, and depth? After all, how often do you see a serious discussion of astrology around here?

[Cainkane1]

Who are they going to apologise to? If you could find a slave it might be ok to apologise to them but I doubt if you'll find a slave here in the USA. Who is going to do the apologising? Any slave owners here in the USA? None of my ancestors owned slaves and they weren't responsible for slaves being here so who would I apologise to?

[XBoxWarrior]

Wow.......such racism alive and well on the JREF forum.

I'm shocked I tell's ya, I'm shocked.

Skeptics my ass.

[BPSCG]

Wow.......such racism alive and well on the JREF forum.

I'm shocked I tell's ya, I'm shocked.

Skeptics my ass.Such an odd claim, long on generalities, short on specifics.

Could you please:


Identify the racists here;
Explain how you know they are racists. Be sure to supply convincing evidence.

Thank you.

[GreNME]

Maybe because the idea is ridiculous throughout its length, breadth, and depth? After all, how often do you see a serious discussion of astrology around here?

What are you referring to that is ridiculous? Apologizing for slavery? My laughing at the white-middle-class-male outrage displayed in the OP (and some subsequent posts)? Or something else entirely?

Also, are we looking at whether it's ridiculous or not by the way things actually are or by the way some of us might think things should be? Because I can admit right off the bat that I don't disagree with or have an argument against the "it's not fair" argument. The reality, however, is that the world isn't fair, and pretending it somehow is now because we don't practice slavery or have Jim Crow is (in my opinion) pretty ridiculous in its own right.

[geni]

Who are they going to apologise to? If you could find a slave it might be ok to apologise to them but I doubt if you'll find a slave here in the USA.

Various illegal imigrants have ended up in conditions of slavery.

[Ian Osborne]

Various illegal imigrants have ended up in conditions of slavery.
Only metaphorically. They're never the legally-owned possession of another human being.

[BPSCG]

What are you referring to that is ridiculous? The idea that people who never owned slaves, never encouraged anyone to own slaves, never aided or abetted slavery in any way, shape, or form. should apologize for slavery, or otherwise be held to account for slavery, to people who were never enslaved themselves.

[GroundStrength]

The idea that people who never owned slaves, never encouraged anyone to own slaves, never aided or abetted slavery in any way, shape, or form. should apologize for slavery, or otherwise be held to account for slavery, to people who were never enslaved themselves.

Yup.

[geni]

Only metaphorically. They're never the legally-owned possession of another human being.

So it isn't posible to have illegal slavery?

[ravdin]

My ancestors were kicked out of Spain in the 15th century. I'm still waiting for an apology and a check from the Spanish government.

[Tailgater]

I'm not outraged, but I think it's dumb. Who is actually doing the apologizing? Names man, I want names!!

[Tailgater]

So it isn't posible to have illegal slavery?

Yes, but being illegal means it is not condoned by the government.

[GreNME]

The idea that people who never owned slaves, never encouraged anyone to own slaves, never aided or abetted slavery in any way, shape, or form. should apologize for slavery, or otherwise be held to account for slavery, to people who were never enslaved themselves.

So, you're of the "it ain't fair" type of thinking on the issue, yes?

[JoeEllison]

Yet another thoughtful discourse on racism on the forum.

Oh, and you forgot to include "political correctness gone mad!!!" and "liberul masochistic guilt". I'm sure that would help the discussion be even more substantive.
These sorts of threads are a celebration for racists, aren't they? They can attack "liberals" and "PC" but most of them are really going after black people who they think should stop being so "uppity" and shut up and know their "place".

[Tailgater]

So, you're of the "it ain't fair" type of thinking on the issue, yes?

Why does it have to be "it aint fair" thinking? Why can't it be "Thats stupid" thinking? My kids are mixed and I hope that they don't grow up thinking anyone owes them for anything. Especially because of race.

[Tailgater]

These sorts of threads are a celebration for racists, aren't they? They can attack "liberals" and "PC" but most of them are really going after black people who they think should stop being so "uppity" and shut up and know their "place".

Umm, ya, because that would be the only reason for someone to disagree.

[GreNME]

Why does it have to be "it aint fair" thinking? Why can't it be "Thats stupid" thinking?

What is the reasoning for "that's stupid" in the first place?

My kids are mixed and I hope that they don't grow up thinking anyone owes them for anything. Especially because of race.

Who is saying anybody owes them anything?

[Tailgater]

Who is saying anybody owes them anything?

People that feel they need an apology or people who feel they need to give an apology for something that both sides need to just let heal. It's like picking a wound. My oldest is nine, saw this and didn't understand. I told him he shouldn't expect an apology for being him.

[GreNME]

People that feel they need an apology or people who feel they need to give an apology for something that both sides need to just let heal. It's like picking a wound. My oldest is nine, saw this and didn't understand. I told him he shouldn't expect an apology for being him.

You're generalizing everyone else but expecting me to specifically understand your point of view. Which "people" are you talking about?

Again, what's the reasoning behind the "it's stupid" thinking?

[Tailgater]

You're generalizing everyone else but expecting me to specifically understand your point of view. Which "people" are you talking about?

Again, what's the reasoning behind the "it's stupid" thinking?

The non-binding resolution was introduced by Rep. Steve Cohen (Tenn.), a white Democrat who represents a majority African-American district in Memphis. Early in 2007, Cohen expressed interest in joiing the Congressional Black Caucus but later backed away from that idea. The CBC's PAC has actually donated money to an African-American Democrat challenging Cohen, but he has received reelection backing from Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.), chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and some other prominent black lawmakers.

Well, the black caucus of Memphis and the politicians pandering for votes for starters.

The stupidity is that some of us are trying to raise our kids with the idea that they are responsible for themselves and that they are the pilots of self destiny and that the only thing holding them back in the present is not letting go of the past.

[GreNME]

Well, the black caucus of Memphis and the politicians pandering for votes for starters.

So, you think politicians pandering for votes is stupid, or is telling your kids that they are owed something that they're not?

Just so you know, that's what politicians DO: the pander for votes. Anyone who told you otherwise was lying.

The stupidity is that some of us are trying to raise our kids with the idea that they are responsible for themselves and that they are the pilots of self destiny and that the only thing holding them back in the present is not letting go of the past.

Good for you for instilling that frame of mind. You haven't shown where someone is telling them otherwise, though.

[ravdin]

These sorts of threads are a celebration for racists, aren't they? They can attack "liberals" and "PC" but most of them are really going after black people who they think should stop being so "uppity" and shut up and know their "place".

How tiresome. The usual tactic for shutting down any discussion or debate over reparation is to label its critics as "racists". I would expect better from a group of so-called critical thinkers.

[JoeEllison]

How tiresome. The usual tactic for shutting down any discussion or debate over reparation is to label its critics as "racists". I would expect better from a group of so-called critical thinkers.

Right back at you. The usual tactic for racists to dismiss their critics is to complain about being labeled for what they are. I would expect better from a group of so-called critical thinkers.

[Tailgater]

So, you think politicians pandering for votes is stupid, or is telling your kids that they are owed something that they're not?

Both. I am not naive about the fact that alot of this is political and I am bothered by issues put out sometimes by politicians when I'm trying to teach my kids they are equal. Consistently pointing out how slave conditions are a reason they might "continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery" is not aligned with that.

Good for you for instilling that frame of mind. You haven't shown where someone is telling them otherwise, though.

The US government has told them (represented by people who probably don't give a damn). Anyone who disagrees is apparently racist themselves. This just polarizes people more than it heals.

ETA: So what now? Is the apology accepted? Does it change anything? Was there something accomplished here?

[GreNME]

Both. I am not naive about the fact that alot of this is political and I am bothered by issues put out sometimes by politicians when I'm trying to teach my kids they are equal. Consistently pointing out how slave conditions are a reason they might "continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery" is not aligned with that.

Well, as to the politicians part, I'm not sure why you think it's stupid since that's what politicians do-- not that I wouldn't agree that some of the pandering can be ridiculous or stupid, but that pandering is what politicians do is practically part and parcel of politics.

As to the quote you mention, do you think that the Jim Crow laws-- or other similar institutional systems that were set in motion after the official abolition of slavery-- were not consequences of the slavery that was abolished? Are you saying that there isn't a chance that some of those consequences don't still exist? I mean, I believe it was only last year when I saw a news item talking about a high school that still has segregated proms (or perhaps they had only just gotten rid of them). The disparities between minorities and the majority in terms of employment, criminal convictions, and criminal sentencing (which is not necessarily the same as conviction) tend to be pretty widely disseminated and documented. Are you arguing that those things are also not a consequence of attitudes stemming from days when slavery was justified by law?

The US government has told them (represented by people who probably don't give a damn). Anyone who disagrees is apparently racist themselves. This just polarizes people more than it heals.

Please note I'm not labeling anyone a racist here. I think the majority of the outrage at these things comes from an attitude that can be confused with racism, but I don't necessarily think they're exactly the same thing. I would also agree that calling people racists for holding those attitudes (of outrage) is too polarizing and not helpful to the conversation. However, by that same token I don't think it's a stupid conversation to have.

ETA: So what now? Is the apology accepted? Does it change anything? Was there something accomplished here?

I don't think the goals of such an action were quite so IF/THEN in terms of expectations, just based on my own understanding. I'm thinking the likelihood is higher that the goals were to provide a message that there are complaints or concerns about the legacy of racism that are recognized by the government, and that the government is pledging to no longer support things that allow such a legacy to flourish. It all sounds a bit touchy-feely to me, and that feel-good stuff definitely isn't my personal cup of tea, but it also doesn't strike me as offensive or anything to be outraged about.

[Tailgater]

Well, as to the politicians part, I'm not sure why you think it's stupid since that's what politicians do-- not that I wouldn't agree that some of the pandering can be ridiculous or stupid, but that pandering is what politicians do is practically part and parcel of politics.

As to the quote you mention, do you think that the Jim Crow laws-- or other similar institutional systems that were set in motion after the official abolition of slavery-- were not consequences of the slavery that was abolished? Are you saying that there isn't a chance that some of those consequences don't still exist? I mean, I believe it was only last year when I saw a news item talking about a high school that still has segregated proms (or perhaps they had only just gotten rid of them). The disparities between minorities and the majority in terms of employment, criminal convictions, and criminal sentencing (which is not necessarily the same as conviction) tend to be pretty widely disseminated and documented. Are you arguing that those things are also not a consequence of attitudes stemming from days when slavery was justified by law?



Please note I'm not labeling anyone a racist here. I think the majority of the outrage at these things comes from an attitude that can be confused with racism, but I don't necessarily think they're exactly the same thing. I would also agree that calling people racists for holding those attitudes (of outrage) is too polarizing and not helpful to the conversation. However, by that same token I don't think it's a stupid conversation to have.



I don't think the goals of such an action were quite so IF/THEN in terms of expectations, just based on my own understanding. I'm thinking the likelihood is higher that the goals were to provide a message that there are complaints or concerns about the legacy of racism that are recognized by the government, and that the government is pledging to no longer support things that allow such a legacy to flourish. It all sounds a bit touchy-feely to me, and that feel-good stuff definitely isn't my personal cup of tea, but it also doesn't strike me as offensive or anything to be outraged about.

I like your post and pretty much agree with you in general. It's hard to get really deep on a forum sometimes from the limit in communication. I guess stupid was the only word I could think of because I'm not "outraged", but it just smacks me of such silliness and maybe emptyness. Emptyness coming from an entity. The US is not a person. It's everyone here including all races. When I see this, I think hollow apology. I think, some agenda. I don't think, "awe, how nice is that". Now if some rich plantation owner in Lousiana came out and stated his family made alot of money off slaves and was starting a program to help inner city blacks and apologized for the history of his family, that means something. Unfortunately, most Americans had nothing to do with slavery, even in their own family history, so a bunch of suits getting together and doing this (some for selfish gains) is just (pardon the pun) black comedy. Those Americans don't feel the need to apologize and getting called racist for thinking that way just adds fuel to the fire. That's why IMO, this benefits the politicians, but racial tolerance takes one step back.

ETA:My wife called me from work during this post and works in an all black female office. I asked her what the girls thought about it. None of them had even heard about it and when they found out, there was the same reaction of "how stupid" and "doesn't our government have something better to do".

[GreNME]

I like your post and pretty much agree with you in general. It's hard to get really deep on a forum sometimes from the limit in communication. I guess stupid was the only word I could think of because I'm not "outraged", but it just smacks me of such silliness and maybe emptyness. Emptyness coming from an entity. The US is not a person. It's everyone here including all races. When I see this, I think hollow apology. I think, some agenda. I don't think, "awe, how nice is that". Now if some rich plantation owner in Lousiana came out and stated his family made alot of money off slaves and was starting a program to help inner city blacks and apologized for the history of his family, that means something. Unfortunately, most Americans had nothing to do with slavery, even in their own family history, so a bunch of suits getting together and doing this (some for selfish gains) is just (pardon the pun) black comedy. Those Americans don't feel the need to apologize and getting called racist for thinking that way just adds fuel to the fire. That's why IMO, this benefits the politicians, but racial tolerance takes one step back.

Except for tolerance taking one step back, I pretty much agree with you there. I don't think this had any real effect on tolerance in the real world, and if it affects anything to do with tolerance I think the most it would do is reinforce conclusions people have already come to.

My only conclusion with it is that it's politicians seeking face time, as usual.

[ravdin]

Right back at you. The usual tactic for racists to dismiss their critics is to complain about being labeled for what they are. I would expect better from a group of so-called critical thinkers.

You do see that's a classic strawman argument, don't you? Nobody wants to be labeled a racist, so it's very easy to turn a discussion about slavery and reparations into making your critic defend himself against accusations of racism (an argument that you can never, ever win, by the way, should you be foolish enough to allow yourself to be drawn into it).

If reparations are a good idea, then your arguments should stand on their own merits, without having to personally attack your opponents. If they aren't a good idea... well, in that case your best bet would be to cry racist as loudly and often as you can.

[GreNME]

You do see that's a classic strawman argument, don't you? Nobody wants to be labeled a racist, so it's very easy to turn a discussion about slavery and reparations into making your critic defend himself against accusations of racism (an argument that you can never, ever win, by the way, should you be foolish enough to allow yourself to be drawn into it).

If reparations are a good idea, then your arguments should stand on their own merits, without having to personally attack your opponents. If they aren't a good idea... well, in that case your best bet would be to cry racist as loudly and often as you can.

So, you respond to a strawman with another strawman? I don't think you thought your cunning reply all the way through there.

[ravdin]

So, you respond to a strawman with another strawman? I don't think you thought your cunning reply all the way through there.

How so? It would be a strawman if I were to suggest that advocates for reparations are grievance mongering shakedown artists. Even if I believe the statement isn't necessarily untrue, I wouldn't expect you to take me very seriously if that was my only argument.

[Ian Osborne]

So it isn't posible to have illegal slavery?
Not really, as the term 'slave' is by definition a human being legally owned by another human being. An illegal abuse of power might be such that the victim's position is materially indistinguishable from that of a slave, but to describe them as a 'slave' is metaphoric.

[GreNME]

How so?

Apology != reparations.

[JoeEllison]

You do see that's a classic strawman argument, don't you? Nobody wants to be labeled a racist, so it's very easy to turn a discussion about slavery and reparations into making your critic defend himself against accusations of racism (an argument that you can never, ever win, by the way, should you be foolish enough to allow yourself to be drawn into it).

If reparations are a good idea, then your arguments should stand on their own merits, without having to personally attack your opponents. If they aren't a good idea... well, in that case your best bet would be to cry racist as loudly and often as you can.

This thread isn't about reparations... your true colors are showing.

[BPSCG]

You do see that's a classic strawman argument, don't you? Nobody wants to be labeled a racist, so it's very easy to turn a discussion about slavery and reparations into making your critic defend himself against accusations of racism (an argument that you can never, ever win, by the way, should you be foolish enough to allow yourself to be drawn into it).
But you see, that's the left wingers' favorite tactic. Your opponent must not just be wrong, he must be evil. They use it because they then don't have to actually defend their positions; once your opponent has been branded as evil, you, as a decent person, don't have to soil yourself by arguing with him. Just call him a racist, or a fascist, or a Nazi, and you win.

As you have noted, there's no point in arguing with such a person, because you cannot win an argument that has shifted from the rights and wrongs of an idea, to whether or not you are evil. There's another reason not to argue with such a person. Someone who uses that tactic is admitting that he is intellectually bankrupt, that he has neither facts nor logic behind his position, and that all he can do is resort to childish name-calling.

[TragicMonkey]

But you see, that's the left wingers' favorite tactic. Your opponent must not just be wrong, he must be evil. They use it because they then don't have to actually defend their positions; once your opponent has been branded as evil, you, as a decent person, don't have to soil yourself by arguing with him. Just call him a racist, or a fascist, or a Nazi, and you win.

As you have noted, there's no point in arguing with such a person, because you cannot win an argument that has shifted from the rights and wrongs of an idea, to whether or not you are evil. There's another reason not to argue with such a person. Someone who uses that tactic is admitting that he is intellectually bankrupt, that he has neither facts nor logic behind his position, and that all he can do is resort to childish name-calling.

And if I were a "left winger" (isn't that a hockey position?), I'd say that the problem with debating "right wingers" is that they start characterizing you as intellectually bankrupt, with neither facts nor logic behind your position, and that all you can do is resort to childish name-calling. Not the name-calling like calling people intellectually bankrupt, but like, the other kind.

Seriously Beeps, can't you see that you're being just as bad as the people you're arguing against?

[BPSCG]

Apology != reparations.

This thread isn't about reparations... your true colors are showing."I consistently believe that when it comes to whether it's Native Americans or African-American issues or reparations, the most important thing for the U.S. government to do is not just offer words, but offer deeds." (Emphasis mine) Evidently, Obama believes that more than an apology is needed (http://starbulletin.com/2008/07/28/news/story05.html). He apparently doesn't think the Civil War, the ratification of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the continuing practice of racial preferences are sufficient "deeds" to close the books on the ugliest stain on our history.

[a_unique_person]

I'm still waiting for my apology. I keep emailing the Egyptians to apologize for enslaving my great23-grandfather, but they just write back, "Infidel pig-dog, how dare you have the effrontery to ask for an apology when you should be begging not to be beheaded as befits all unbelievers; such is the word of Allah, who is truly all-knowing, all-just. Truly, your day of reckoning is nigh, lest you follow in the ways of the Prophet (PBUH); renounce your infidel beliefs, for truly, Allah is wise, merciful..."

(It goes on like this for several pages.)

*sigh*

There is no actual evidence that was anything more than a myth.

[BPSCG]

And if I were a "left winger" (isn't that a hockey position?), I'd say that the problem with debating "right wingers" is that they start characterizing you as intellectually bankrupt, with neither facts nor logic behind your position, and that all you can do is resort to childish name-calling. The differences being:

1) I put up a number of posts in this thread without characterizing anyone as evil, no matter how fiercely he might have favored an apology for slavery.

2) By contrast, some people's very first post here accused people of racism for the simple crime of thinking a government apology for slavery is a bad idea. And offered nothing to support either the proposition that their opponents were racists or the proposition that an apology for slavery is a good idea. All they did was start right in with the name-calling.

When the beginning, middle, and end of a person's position is, "You're a racist," I think it's fair to say that's an intellectually bankrupt position.

There are thoughtful people who have thoughtful ideas on both sides of the argument. Charles Krauthammer, that notorious right-wing monster, actually favors not just an apology, but financial reparations as well, and makes a compelling argument for his position without calling those who disagree racists.

[JoeEllison]

Some people seem to think that the answer to racism is to stop talking about it and it will magically disappear, and then attack people who actually want to do something about it... but don't call them racist, because in their retarded little minds they thing being called a racist automatically absolves them from being racist. They throw in some garbage about how the "left-wingers" point out their racist, and if a "left-winger" says it then it miraculously means the opposite is true. No, it don't understand it either, but I'm not a racist piece o' crap.

[GreNME]

(Emphasis mine) Evidently, Obama believes that more than an apology is needed (http://starbulletin.com/2008/07/28/news/story05.html). He apparently doesn't think the Civil War, the ratification of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the continuing practice of racial preferences are sufficient "deeds" to close the books on the ugliest stain on our history.

Considering some of the "expose" videos bouncing around about him (like the 'OMG HE'S A MOSLEM HUSSEIN OMG' ones) or the fact that he's been dealing with crap like this since at least May (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051203014.html?wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter), I'd say that I would feel like there are a whole lot of "deeds" that seem to have been forgotten or ignored.

As for your alleged "continuing practice of racial preferences," all I can say is thanks for proving that it does always come back to the "but it's not fair" line of reasoning. Welcome back white-middle-class-male outrage.

[BPSCG]

Some people seem to think that the answer to racism is to stop talking about it and it will magically disappear, and then attack people who actually want to do something about it... but don't call them racist, because in their retarded little minds they thing being called a racist automatically absolves them from being racist. They throw in some garbage about how the "left-wingers" point out their racist, and if a "left-winger" says it then it miraculously means the opposite is true. No, it don't understand it either, but I'm not a racist piece o' crap.JoeEllison is unable to explain coherently why an apology for racism is a good idea. So JoeEllison persists with, "Anyone who doesn't agree is a retarded racist piece o' crap."

[billydkid]

What confuses me is this - how can an apology coming from anyone except the persons who participated in the offense mean anything at all? I could apologize until the cows come home for the Bataan Death March, but in as much as I had nothing at all to do with it, how would anyone draw any comfort from it?

[billydkid]

Some people seem to think that the answer to racism is to stop talking about it and it will magically disappear, and then attack people who actually want to do something about it... but don't call them racist, because in their retarded little minds they thing being called a racist automatically absolves them from being racist. They throw in some garbage about how the "left-wingers" point out their racist, and if a "left-winger" says it then it miraculously means the opposite is true. No, it don't understand it either, but I'm not a racist piece o' crap.Wait, the whole notion of collective responsibility is non-sensical. In what way shape or form am I responsible or culpable in the racism of other people? Even if my government promoted racism (oops, I guess they do. It's called Affirmative Action.) I still would in no way be responsible because, in spite of the mythology, I have zero control over the actions of my government. My sole responsibility is for myself and the kind of person I am and how I treat other people. This whole inclination to spread around responsibility from the people who actually harm other people to people who have or had nothing to do with it is total BS. Blaming things on this abstraction called society is nothing more than a way to remove particular responsibility from bad actors.

[BPSCG]

Considering some of the "expose" videos bouncing around about him (like the 'OMG HE'S A MOSLEM HUSSEIN OMG' ones) or the fact that he's been dealing with crap like this since at least May (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/12/AR2008051203014.html?wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter), I'd say that I would feel like there are a whole lot of "deeds" that seem to have been forgotten or ignored.Are you suggesting we need to pay reparations also, since the other deeds apparently weren't sufficient?

Question: Do you think that making white people who never owned slaves pay taxes to black people who were never slaves, as a national apology for slavery, will improve race relations?

[a_unique_person]

Are you suggesting we need to pay reparations also, since the other deeds apparently weren't sufficient?

Question: Do you think that making white people who never owned slaves pay taxes to black people who were never slaves, as a national apology for slavery, will improve race relations?

Considering here that the native population in a similar situation asked for the same thing, I'd guess yes. Why is it so hard to give them one? The African Americans lost something almost as important as their lives, they lost their culture. It's your culture that gives your life an underlying stability and meaning. Slavery destroyed it for them.

[Fronzel]

Considering here that the native population in a similar situation asked for the same thing, I'd guess yes. Why is it so hard to give them one? The African Americans lost something almost as important as their lives, they lost their culture. It's your culture that gives your life an underlying stability and meaning. Slavery destroyed it for them.

Not all cultures are created equal.

I'm on a team of guys that go in and out of Africa. One of the guys I work with says after 20 years he thanks god every chance he can that his ancestors were slow runners.

[Beerina]

I'm still waiting for my apology. I keep emailing the Egyptians to apologize for enslaving my great23-grandfather

Your ancestors were enslaved by the Egyptians around 1200 AD? :confused:

[Beerina]

The US enslavement was unique in at least one aspect: the need to claim, philosophically, that they were inferior, and thus justify the slavery in the face of the West's philosophical modernism that decided enslaving your fellow man was Wrong.

Previously, you were enslaved if you lost the war to the neighboring city-state. Or village. Or whatever. You weren't an "inferiior race". You just had a huge L on your forehead. And that's your new lot in life. Sucks to be you.


And, quite frankly, I'd be surprised if that were the first situation that use the "inferior" argument rather than the "you lost, losers" argument. And I also can't comment on the viciousness of it w.r.t. other types of slavery, historically.

[BPSCG]

It's your culture that gives your life an underlying stability and meaning. Slavery destroyed it for them.Considering that my parents were immigrants to America, I probably have closer ties to my European "culture" than most African Americans whose ancestors were brought here two hundred years ago do to their African "culture."

So since I had no more of a hand in destroying their culture than you did, what is the rationale that dictates I must pay for it, but you don't have to?

[BPSCG]

Your ancestors were enslaved by the Egyptians around 1200 AD? :confused:Probably should be something like my great100grandfather.

[Zygar]

I'm having a hard time seeing any racism in this thread. But I certainly can tell that the reparations proponents have a complex.

[Ian Osborne]

Previously, you were enslaved if you lost the war to the neighboring city-state. Or village. Or whatever. You weren't an "inferiior race". You just had a huge L on your forehead. And that's your new lot in life. Sucks to be you.
That's exactly the situation with US and European slave trade. The slaves they brought back from Africa were bought, not chased down and captured. They usually were prisoners of war, sold by the victors and bought by the white man.

I wonder if black Africans feel the need to apologise for slavery?

[GroundStrength]

Some people seem to think that the answer to racism is to stop talking about it and it will magically disappear, and then attack people who actually want to do something about it... but don't call them racist, because in their retarded little minds they thing being called a racist automatically absolves them from being racist. They throw in some garbage about how the "left-wingers" point out their racist, and if a "left-winger" says it then it miraculously means the opposite is true. No, it don't understand it either, but I'm not a racist piece o' crap.

This post is very dickish.

[GreNME]

Are you suggesting we need to pay reparations also, since the other deeds apparently weren't sufficient?

Question: Do you think that making white people who never owned slaves pay taxes to black people who were never slaves, as a national apology for slavery, will improve race relations?

Since neither I nor anyone else (including Obama) have claimed that such would be necessary, you are arguing against something no one has said.

A good "deed" to start with would be promoting an honest conversation on race and ethnicity in this country. The problem so far is that such conversations either turn into both sides yelling different forms of "racist" at each other or it's a constant escalation of strawman arguments by each side until it finally reaches the point of yelling "racist" at each other.

We can't even seem to make it past what would normally be a primary step on this issue-- an intellectually honest conversation-- so exactly why would asking for better from people be a ridiculous thing?

[JoeEllison]

Wait, the whole notion of collective responsibility is non-sensical. In what way shape or form am I responsible or culpable in the racism of other people? Even if my government promoted racism (oops, I guess they do. It's called Affirmative Action.) I still would in no way be responsible because, in spite of the mythology, I have zero control over the actions of my government. My sole responsibility is for myself and the kind of person I am and how I treat other people. This whole inclination to spread around responsibility from the people who actually harm other people to people who have or had nothing to do with it is total BS. Blaming things on this abstraction called society is nothing more than a way to remove particular responsibility from bad actors.

Your entire post is a part gigantic strawman, and part rejection of civilization. You don't seem to understand the difference between "responsibility" and "blame", for instance. We have a collective responsibility as citizens to correct the things that are wrong in our society. That doesn't automatically mean we carry individual blame for those things.

Plus, calling affirmative action "racist" is part of that bizarre reversal of positions that seems racist to me. There seems to be a trend of the privileged white majority to consider any correction of institutional racism, or even discussion of the facts of institutional racism in this country, and being the real racism in America. Blaming the victims the way you appear to be doing is just nasty as all hell.

[Zygar]

Your entire post is a part gigantic strawman
:id:

, and part rejection of civilization.

No.

[BPSCG]

We can't even seem to make it past what would normally be a primary step on this issue-- an intellectually honest conversation-- so exactly why would asking for better from people be a ridiculous thing?Okay, maybe we need to take a different tack here.

I used to have a girlfriend whose idea of a good time was to pick a fight and then make up.

The first time she did it, I kinda shrugged it off; maybe she was justified at being angry, maybe not, but I figured it didn't hurt to apologize and didn't cost me anything. I didn't see what it was that I had supposedly done wrong, so my apology was insincere, though I did my best not to let on that I thought I hadn't really done anything to justify her being annoyed with me.

As time went on, she continued to pick fights with me, and expected me to apologize to her for some injury I had allegedly done her. After a while I realized that this was just something she did for reasons known only to her - if even that. I told her I didn't enjoy fighting as much as I had enjoyed it with my first wife, that it had actually led to the breakup of our marriage.

I told her I didn't want that to happen with us, but that if she continued to pick fights with me, we'd end up a train wreck.

She didn't stop. Finally, she picked a fight with me one night over dinner - I'd taken her to a very nice restaurant for her birthday - and that was the last straw. We broke up that night.

I don't mind apologizing when I know I've done something wrong, even if it was unintentional. But I resent having to apologize when I know I have done nothing wrong. I resent having to apologize for an injury I had no part in inflicting on someone.

That's just one of the reasons a national apology for slavery is a bad idea. Nobody who is alive today was a slave at any time that slavery was legal in the United States. Nobody who is alive today was a slave owner at any time that slavery was legal in the United States. There is not a single person alive in the U.S. who had anything to do with the institution.

If an apology is forced out of people who had nothing to do with slavery, to people who were never themselves slaves, it will have the result of engendering more resentment - on both sides. It will engender resentment from the apologizers, who, like me with my ex-girlfriend, resent being forced to apologize for an injury they had no part in. And it will engender resentment from the apologizees, who will recognize that the apologizers resent being forced to make an apology and are insincere in their apology. Think about it. If I were being forced to apologize for slavery to a black person today, it would probably take the form of, "I'm sorry people long dead enslaved your ancestors, also long dead, even though neither I nor any of my ancestors had anything to do with it, having all been Europeans until almost a hundred years after slavery was abolished. My apology is as sincere as my cat's apparent affection when she knows it's feeding time, but if it makes you feel better, enjoy it."

Yeah, that'll be a balm to soothe America's raw race relations.

It will not heal the wounds of slavery; if anything, it will make them worse, by immediately creating a generation of people angry over being forced to give an apology, and people angry at its insincerity.

[GreNME]

I think you should read the apology. I don't see anything in the language that is blaming American individuals for slavery. Instead, I see a lot of language about how the government representatives are apologizing on behalf of the American government for its part in a black mark on American history.

[GroundStrength]

I think you should read the apology. I don't see anything in the language that is blaming American individuals for slavery. Instead, I see a lot of language about how the government representatives are apologizing on behalf of the American government for its part in a black mark on American history.

I did.


Here are the parts I have a problem with.

Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history, as Africans were captured and sold at auction like inanimate objects or animals.

This is patently untrue.



Whereas slavery was not officially abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1865 after the end of the Civil War, which was fought over the slavery issue;

Historical revisionism?

Whereas the system of Jim Crow laws officially existed into the 1960’s–a century after the official end of slavery in America–until Congress took action to end it, but the vestiges of Jim Crow continue to this day;

Which vestiges exactly?


Whereas African-Americans continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery and Jim Crow–long after both systems were formally abolished–through enormous damage and loss, both tangible and intangible, including the loss of human dignity and liberty, the frustration of careers and professional lives, and the long-term loss of income and opportunity;

Poppycock and balderdash.

Whereas a genuine apology is an important and necessary first step in the process of racial reconciliation;

I though the Civil-War was fought to end slavery. Is 600,000 dead not a first step?


Whereas an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs committed can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help Americans confront the ghosts of their past;

Not my ghosts.


Whereas it is important for this country, which legally recognized slavery through its Constitution and its laws, to make a formal apology for slavery and for its successor, Jim Crow, so that it can move forward and seek reconciliation, justice, and harmony for all of its citizens:

Hmmm. I guess the house is not familiar with the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the constitution.


expresses its commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds committed against African-Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future.

Meanwhile, no meaningful energy legislation.

[Travis]

We can't even seem to make it past what would normally be a primary step on this issue-- an intellectually honest conversation-- so exactly why would asking for better from people be a ridiculous thing?

Having an intellectually honest conversation over something so obviously stupid is hard. It's like trying to have one on the emotions of Twinkies.

[GreNME]

I did.


Here are the parts I have a problem with.

None of which are saying American individuals today are responsible or to blame.

Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history, as Africans were captured and sold at auction like inanimate objects or animals.
This is patently untrue.

Patently untrue? Oh, I certainly invite you to start a thread explaining to everyone here how slaves weren't sold in the same manner as livestock in America.

Whereas slavery was not officially abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1865 after the end of the Civil War, which was fought over the slavery issue;
Historical revisionism?

Only if you think that bolded statement is false. The war was fought to prevent the secessionists from breaking the Union, and if you want I can show you some of the official secession statements[link (http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=170)] from the individual states (namely Alabama, Texas, and Virginia) that name for themselves the reason for their actions being slavery. Other states (like Mississippi and Texas) use language to imply that they are forming a separate union with other slave-holding states that were also seceding. Others mostly re-worded South Carolina's secession statement, which make no statement. for why. This is from the secession declarations of the states who seceded name slavery as their reason, so to claim that the war was not due to slavery is an ignorant and apologetic claim.

Whereas the system of Jim Crow laws officially existed into the 1960’s–a century after the official end of slavery in America–until Congress took action to end it, but the vestiges of Jim Crow continue to this day;
Which vestiges exactly?

Oh, things like this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18034102/) in Georgia, where 2007 (not 1907, not 1957) was the very first year there was a non-segregated high school prom. Also, there are several states where Jim Crow laws still exist in state legislation [link (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2711_133/ai_n6148297)], despite their obvious unconstitutionality and enforceability. Additionally, articles like this brief one (http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/) are available to those who are apparently unaware to read and see how imagery from the Jim Crow era has maintained a presence, though admittedly lessened significantly (hence 'vestiges'), into the modern day.

Whereas African-Americans continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery and Jim Crow–long after both systems were formally abolished–through enormous damage and loss, both tangible and intangible, including the loss of human dignity and liberty, the frustration of careers and professional lives, and the long-term loss of income and opportunity;
Poppycock and balderdash.

Only if you're don't count things like salary disparities[1 (http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2006/04/03/daily30.html)], conviction[2 (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/)] and sentencing[3 (http://www.buildingblocksforyouth.org/justiceforsome/jfs.html)] disparities, and overall employment disparities[4 (http://www.stls.frb.org/publications/re/2006/a/pages/ethnic_names.html)].

I though the Civil-War was fought to end slavery. Is 600,000 dead not a first step?

They didn't say the war was fought to end slavery, they said the war was fought over "the slavery issue" which is factually correct. However, your straw man avoids having to make any steps toward an intellectually honest conversation on the legacy of racism in America's past.

Whereas an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs committed can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help Americans confront the ghosts of their past;
Not my ghosts.

If it doesn't apply to you, then what do you have to worry about? Are you asserting that it applies to no one in America?

Whereas it is important for this country, which legally recognized slavery through its Constitution and its laws, to make a formal apology for slavery and for its successor, Jim Crow, so that it can move forward and seek reconciliation, justice, and harmony for all of its citizens:
Hmmm. I guess the house is not familiar with the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the constitution.

And you're obviously not familiar with the fact that there are several states that still have racist legislation on their books, as I've already pointed out. Doesn't stop you from making accusations, though, does it?

expresses its commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds committed against African-Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future.
Meanwhile, no meaningful energy legislation.

So, when you don't have a reasonable or intelligent response to the subject, it's perfectly reasonable for you to change the subject? That's not an argument on your part, that's avoiding the subject.


I don't expect to change your mind on the subject, GroundStrength, but I do hope that I've illustrated for you that your own view of the subject is not the only one applicable to the subject. Whether you individually take issue on a personal level with the apology is irrelevant if you truly believe you have not affected or been affected by slavery. Not everything has to be about you, and there really are still things that exist today that are leftovers from that period in history, and it does still affect some people who are not you.

In other words: it's not always about you.

[GreNME]

Having an intellectually honest conversation over something so obviously stupid is hard. It's like trying to have one on the emotions of Twinkies.

And the tautology continues.

"It's stupid."

"Why is it stupid?"

"Because it's stupid. Look at it!"

"What is stupid about it?"

"It's stupid, that's what's stupid about it."

[GroundStrength]

None of which are saying American individuals today are responsible or to blame.

Maybe.


Sorry missed the bolding in this one.

Here's the part

Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history

Pure unadulterated crap.



Only if you're don't count things like salary disparities[1], conviction[2] and sentencing[3] disparities, and overall employment disparities[4].

And you feel that this is the case soley because of Slavery and Jim Crow?



They didn't say the war was fought to end slavery, they said the war was fought over "the slavery issue" which is factually correct. However, your straw man avoids having to make any steps toward an intellectually honest conversation on the legacy of racism in America's past.

Slavery was (and still is) horrible in every case.

The era of segregation and lynching and such is to be condemned.

Honest enough?

My point was that the house of Representative's effort was not the first step (or second or third). How is that a straw man?


If it doesn't apply to you, then what do you have to worry about? Are you asserting that it applies to no one in America?

Kind of, yeah. While I am sure that there are those who are still alive who went through the Jim Crow era, noone who owned or was a slave is still alive.

The government of these United States has already apologized and has done what it can to make things right.

People will continue to find reasons to hate each other.


And you're obviously not familiar with the fact that there are several states that still have racist legislation on their books, as I've already pointed out. Doesn't stop you from making accusations, though, does it?

There is no accounting for the general stupidity of our local, state and federal governments.

I am sure that there are many equally stupid unenforceable laws on the books about most things.


So, when you don't have a reasonable or intelligent response to the subject, it's perfectly reasonable for you to change the subject? That's not an argument on your part, that's avoiding the subject.

No, actually that is my frustration with both democrats and republicans showing through.

This resolution is meaningless and a waste of time better spent.



I don't expect to change your mind on the subject, GroundStrength, but I do hope that I've illustrated for you that your own view of the subject is not the only one applicable to the subject. Whether you individually take issue on a personal level with the apology is irrelevant if you truly believe you have not affected or been affected by slavery. Not everything has to be about you, and there really are still things that exist today that are leftovers from that period in history, and it does still affect some people who are not you.


I don't expect I will change my mind

Notice my first post in this thread...


The United States Federal Government can apologize if it feels the need to.

I who had nothing to do with it, shall not.


but I do hope I have illustrated for you that I think the resolution is a meaningless waste of time.


But that is to be expected of a gathering of buffoons.

[GroundStrength]

And the tautology continues.

"It's stupid."

"Why is it stupid?"

"Because it's stupid. Look at it!"

"What is stupid about it?"

"It's stupid, that's what's stupid about it."


It's stupid, because it is meaningless. It is a non-binding resolution designed to get a white man elected in a predominantly black congressional district.


Ugh. (http://amusinghistorymusings.blogspot.com/2008/07/congressional-apology-for-slavery.html)

The resolution, passed by voice vote, was the work of Tennessee Democrat Steve Cohen, the only white lawmaker to represent a majority black district. Cohen faces a formidable black challenger in a primary face-off next week.

Cohen became the first white to represent the 60 percent black district in Memphis in more than three decades when he captured a 2006 primary where a dozen black candidates split the vote. He has sought to reach out to his black constituents, and early in his term showed interest in joining the Congressional Black Caucus until learning that was against caucus rules.

Gotta love that segregation.

[often mrunderstood]

Claiming that an apology will help improve race relations seems to only perpetuate the negative stereotype about the target group's intelligence level. I for one think the black community is way smarter than that.

But what do you expect from a racist?

I'm sorry! (just in case it really is that easy)

[GreNME]

None of which are saying American individuals today are responsible or to blame.
Maybe.

No, definitely. You can't find anything in the language blaming people today for slavery, only the statement that the government allowed slavery and the institutional racism that followed, and the statement is apologizing for those mistakes and is hoping for a better future.

Sorry missed the bolding in this one.

Here's the part
Whereas slavery in America resembled no other form of involuntary servitude known in history
Pure unadulterated crap.

Forgive me, but it seems like you're now searching for things in the wording to be outraged about. The statement certainly applies to modern Western history.

Only if you're don't count things like salary disparities[1], conviction[2] and sentencing[3] disparities, and overall employment disparities[4].
And you feel that this is the case soley because of Slavery and Jim Crow?

Not solely, but mostly yes in terms of American history. Yes, we could go back and look at the colonial Western powers and the ethnocentrism and classism that dominated their cultures as a source as well, but the institutional racism involved in slavery and later the Jim Crow era laws and culture left an indelible mark on American history.

Slavery was (and still is) horrible in every case.

The era of segregation and lynching and such is to be condemned.

Honest enough?

I'm not saying you or anyone else in particular have said otherwise. However, condemning slavery and segregation is just the start of the impacts of institutional racism on American government, history, and culture.

My point was that the house of Representative's effort was not the first step (or second or third). How is that a straw man?

Because they aren't claiming it's the first step, they are trying to promote taking the first step.

If it doesn't apply to you, then what do you have to worry about? Are you asserting that it applies to no one in America?
Kind of, yeah. While I am sure that there are those who are still alive who went through the Jim Crow era, noone who owned or was a slave is still alive.

Again, that's a straw man. It isn't just about people who were slaves. It isn't even just about people whose grandparents were slaves. It's about the institutionalized remnants of racism that remained even after slavery was abolished, some of which have managed to exist even into the modern day. How can you say it applies to no one when there are still Jim Crow laws in some states? How can you say there aren't cases where it does affect people when only last year that high school in Georgia had its first integrated prom? How do you explain these things lasting for so long if things were supposedly already taken care of?

The government of these United States has already apologized and has done what it can to make things right.

No, it hasn't. If it had, then the Jim Crow laws on some state legislation books would have been removed, if only to make it official. If everything was already done to make things right there wouldn't be disparities in conviction and sentencing in the judicial system. This is the reason for the existence of checks and balances, and for the government to constantly be able to be held accountable not just to itself, but to the people it represents. Saying the case is already closed when it's obviously not is ignoring that fundamental principle of how our government works.

People will continue to find reasons to hate each other.

And it should never be excused.

There is no accounting for the general stupidity of our local, state and federal governments.

Then run for office. Of vote for those who you think can do better. In the meantime, the bozos in office are going to continue to do what politicians do, which is attempt to please everyone as much of the time as possible.

I am sure that there are many equally stupid unenforceable laws on the books about most things.

That's not a relevant argument. You claimed there were no vestiges of Jim Crow, I pointed out that there were in fact vestiges of Jim Crow on the books. You have yet to counterpoint that fact.

No, actually that is my frustration with both democrats and republicans showing through.

This resolution is meaningless and a waste of time better spent.

I can sympathize with that. I don't think it's meaningless, but I do think it's going to be about as effective as most non-binding resolutions out there (which is to say: not very). I also agree with what Tailgater mentioned earlier in that it is not likely to add to or improve the discourse on racism in any real way.

But that doesn't make it stupid. However ham-handed the attempts, at least there are attempts being made.

I don't expect I will change my mind

Notice my first post in this thread...

The United States Federal Government can apologize if it feels the need to.

I who had nothing to do with it, shall not.

but I do hope I have illustrated for you that I think the resolution is a meaningless waste of time.


But that is to be expected of a gathering of buffoons.

That's fine: "meaningless waste of time" is an accusation I can wrap my head around in some sort of intellectual fashion, even if I don't agree with it. "It's stupid" is not such an accusation.

It's stupid, because it is meaningless. It is a non-binding resolution designed to get a white man elected in a predominantly black congressional district.

From what I can tell that guy was already elected for the district.

Ugh. (http://amusinghistorymusings.blogspot.com/2008/07/congressional-apology-for-slavery.html)


Gotta love that segregation.

That reminds me of a joke I heard long ago by some comedian, which wound up becoming part of a conversation I had with someone complaining about Black History Month. I only remember that the guy complaining about Black History Month was moaning something about "why do they get a whole month of history celebration? Where's the white history month or the English history month or the Italian history month?"

My reply: "what the heck do you think the other eleven months consist of? From Columbus Day to Thanksgiving to Presidents Day to St. Valentine's Day and so on, what exactly makes you think you're being excluded when you have the dominant focus for every other month, which are all longer than February in the first place?"

The point: trust me, you really don't want to compete with blacks in the "it isn't fair" department. White, middle-class males are about the least discriminated against demographic in the country, and practically the whole world. I'm not dismissing it, though, I'm saying that if you want to feel less discriminated against then perhaps a more open and intellectually honest conversation needs to take place to find out in what ways these different demographics have similar experiences of discrimination and to what degrees, so that we can find ways to put them to an end. It's not that I don't have sympathy for white males who feel discriminated against-- I'm a white male myself*-- but when looked at in perspective and in comparison to the wide range of discrimination that's out there, my sympathy for it is directly proportional to the amount of actual discrimination that exists. And again, my main response is that if you want it to change then the only way it's going to actually happen is if there is intellectually honest discussion going on.



* though I'm related to people of several different ethnicities, including black relatives

[Texas]

An apology, to have any meaning, has to be backed up with some action. This bill is also apologising for what the writer(s) assert are ongoing wrongs beyond slavery. If I was a member of the target audience I would be thinking that with the "apology" and a dollar I could get a cup of coffee. Unless the congress is just patting itself on the back or if not, really believes that the history of slavery is hurting Blacks today then the only logical thing to do is to make restitution in some form. I think the target audience will shortly come to the same conclusion and this apology will give them a fairly strong rationale to demand such restitution.

[Travis]

And the tautology continues.

"It's stupid."

"Why is it stupid?"

"Because it's stupid. Look at it!"

"What is stupid about it?"

"It's stupid, that's what's stupid about it."

You honestly think someone, who did nothing wrong, apologizing to a whole group of people, who are not victims of the act being apologized for, isn't completely pointless and therefore stupid? What real tangible benefit could be derived from this complete waste of time?

Perhaps I, as a Belgian-American, should go apologize to some Native Americans for the Japanese rape of Chinese Nanking. It would make just as much sense and be just as pointless.

[Texas]

I do love me some middle-class white male angst.Your snide remark aside there is only one way for minority rights to be protected and that is with the consent of the majority, in this case whites. The quickest way to soften that support is to shame those that had nothing to do with past problems and that have provided the tax dollars by the billions to alleviate the problems blacks still have. There is a growing tendency for whites to wonder when blacks will ever be able to stand on their own two feet. Hell even some prominent black leaders are asking the same questions.

Maybe what is needed is for Black leaders to get together and come up with a time table and amount of dollars it would take to finally put paid to slavery and the more recent perceived wrongs. That would at least give whites a road-map of what it will take both in time, money, legislation etc. I realise it would be racist to form a group of White leaders to negotiate with the Black leaders but I think someone should at least layout some benchmarks to be met by blacks in that road-map.

[GreNME]

Travis: at least do me the service of reading my posts. I already explained in a previous post that if you're taking it personally as an accusation of blame you're not getting it.

Texas: I don't think money is the answer, and as far as I know neither does any leader in any minority community who has more than two brain cells (which might count out Sharpton). The problem with the racism that was once institutional is that it went deeper than just laws and who gets to marry or go to school with whom. Money isn't going to fix the problem of racism, but being able to talk openly without it turning into an "it's not my fault" and "OMG you're a racist" shouting match would be a good start.

The bad side is that we can't get rid of bigotry altogether. The good news is that despite that fact we have done a pretty good job of minimizing and marginalizing it. There is still a whole subset of the population-- and by that I don't mean all blacks, latinos, or east Asians, because it's not everyone and even includes whites-- who are still not sure that the playing field is level because their experiences tell them otherwise. I can't say this resolution does much to change that but it's clear that this was an effort to try to start such a conversation. I'm not defending its efficacy or even its wording, but I do think it's not just a stupid resolution that's solely a hollow gesture to win votes. Otherwise we've made a lot less progress than I usually like to think since 1865.

[a_unique_person]

Considering that my parents were immigrants to America, I probably have closer ties to my European "culture" than most African Americans whose ancestors were brought here two hundred years ago do to their African "culture."

So since I had no more of a hand in destroying their culture than you did, what is the rationale that dictates I must pay for it, but you don't have to?

I don't think anyone is asking you to apoligize, personally, it's something done by the government, as the 'heir' of those who ruled at the time. An apology was recently made in Australia to it's aboriginal inhabitants, and for them it was a very important day, and even though it was symbolic, they felt it was an important statement that had to be made.

[Travis]

Travis: at least do me the service of reading my posts. I already explained in a previous post that if you're taking it personally as an accusation of blame you're not getting it.

There isn't a single person, not one, alive today that is in anyway responsible for Slavery in the US nor are there any institutions, like the government of today, that are in anyway responsible for slavery in the US.

Who's left to do the apologizing? By default anyone, including the government, who apologizes for slavery today is apologizing for something they had no part of.

[Jon_Stripe]

Well, this is another epic wast of time.


Ya know what 'black comunity'?

GET-THE-HELL-OVER-IT

Sure it was a nasty smudge on the American flag but it's not like any of the ol' slaves are still alive.

None of these people even lived through it.

They have nothing owed to them.

Infact, if ya wanna play that game, then the 'black comunity' needs to apologize to their 'brothers'.

It's convieniantly over looked but did you know who was capturing most of these slaves?

Guess what, it was fellow African tribes men!!


This bull ***** of "I'm black, therefore you owe me something." is just that, bull *****.

[Jon_Stripe]

And another thing.

Who's this ass-kissing retard who claims that the American slavery was the worst in history????


Dipsh*t, look at the slaves of Ancient Rome.... look what happened there...

[GreNME]

There isn't a single person, not one, alive today that is in anyway responsible for Slavery in the US nor are there any institutions, like the government of today, that are in anyway responsible for slavery in the US.

And neither the apology nor anyone on this thread has said that. In fact, it's been pointed out each time someone uses that strawman. This is why I asked you to read my previous posts.

Who's left to do the apologizing? By default anyone, including the government, who apologizes for slavery today is apologizing for something they had no part of.

The government did have a part in it, just not the representatives who are currently part of the government. Again, if you're looking for people or faces to blame then you're not understanding what's being talked about, since that is not what is being done.

[GreNME]

Holy moley. What the hell is this? I address an argument with one person, and then someone else comes along and makes the same arguments in the same thread?

[RadioactiveMan]

Vikings wimp out when faced by decent costal defences and navys.
And Kansas City Chiefs, Oakland Raiders, Miami Dolphins, and Pittsburgh Steelers.

[RadioactiveMan]

The African Americans lost something almost as important as their lives, they lost their culture. It's your culture that gives your life an underlying stability and meaning. Slavery destroyed it for them.
If they're so hyper to regain their "culture" I would support reparations in the following manner:
Anyone who wants their "culture" restored shall present themselves to any one of several to-be-determined sites around the nation, officially renounce their American citizenship to the proper authority, and shall then be provided a plane ticket to the African nation of their choice.

When they get there they can explore their culture to their hearts content. Until, of course, they get murdered in some trivial tribal conflict, die of some exotic jungle disease, or acquire HIV and die a slow death.

"Problem" solved.

[GreNME]

Wow.

An honest-to-goodness "they can go back to Africa" comment in the thread.

Wow.

[RadioactiveMan]

There's something wrong with going to Africa?

[JoeEllison]

Wow.

An honest-to-goodness "they can go back to Africa" comment in the thread.

Wow.

But, you know... it is crazy to think that there's any racism involved, just crazy! :rolleyes:

[RadioactiveMan]

Yes, it is crazy.

[GreNME]

What's crazy is to assume that there isn't a "black culture" in America that is completely American, not African.

So, in essence, RadioactiveMan: your argument falls on its face because it assumes Africa is where the culture some people are talking about would be found. That's false. It's an American culture, built on American experience, by American people. Saying that they should go back to whatever country their ancestors came from is about as stupid as demanding all white Americans go back to Europe and Asia.

[RadioactiveMan]

What's crazy is to assume that there isn't a "black culture" in America that is completely American, not African.

So, in essence, RadioactiveMan: your argument falls on its face because it assumes Africa is where the culture some people are talking about would be found.
If they were "robbed" of their culture, it stands to reason the culture of which they were "robbed" would be found in the place from which their ancestors were taken. Additionally, remember it's not my argument that they were robbed of anything.

Saying that they should go back to whatever country their ancestors came from is about as stupid as demanding all white Americans go back to Europe and Asia.
I'm not saying they "should" do anything, and I haven't "demanded" a thing. I'm saying that, if culture theft is their beef, there's a way for them to get back in touch with their roots.

[a_unique_person]

Well, this is another epic wast of time.


Ya know what 'black comunity'?

GET-THE-HELL-OVER-IT

Sure it was a nasty smudge on the American flag but it's not like any of the ol' slaves are still alive.

None of these people even lived through it.

They have nothing owed to them.

They are still living with the effects. To create a culture to replace a lost one is a very long process. They were treated just like farm animals. Bought, sold, bred, worked.

[GreNME]

If they were "robbed" of their culture, it stands to reason the culture of which they were "robbed" would be found in the place from which their ancestors were taken. Additionally, remember it's not my argument that they were robbed of anything.

No, I realize it isn't your argument. It's a very nice strawman to the rest of the conversation and the original topic.

I'm not saying they "should" do anything, and I haven't "demanded" a thing. I'm saying that, if culture theft is their beef, there's a way for them to get back in touch with their roots.

The roots to American black culture are in America, not Africa. That is where your assumptions fail.

[RadioactiveMan]

No, I realize it isn't your argument. It's a very nice strawman to the rest of the conversation and the original topic.
Strawman? What the hell are you talking about? I was responding to the claim made by a_unique_person that blacks in America were robbed of their culture. Didn't you read my post?

The roots to American black culture are in America, not Africa. That is where your assumptions fail.
It's not my assumption! How can you claim you understand that isn't my argument, then immediately claim that it is?

[GreNME]

It isn't your argument, but you're the one who fallaciously suggested "going back to Africa" as if it were some kind of answer.

[suicidesamurai]

If my former owner apologized for enslaving me I would punch him in the face.

[Jon_Stripe]

They are still living with the effects. To create a culture to replace a lost one is a very long process. They were treated just like farm animals. Bought, sold, bred, worked.

Key word were. Past tense.


It's almost comical in my opinion to apologize when it didn't happen in any of our life times.

If they're gonna apologize to the Blacks for slavery then they need to apologize to the forever lost Abaqua Native American tribe who threw themselves, women and childeren first, off a cliff in defiance to being assimilated by the white man (the American Government). Not to mention the countless other tribes who were forced to be assimilated or die AND give up their home land PLUS be screwed over 'till death and in some cases become endentured servants. Hmmm, sounds like another incident, don't it?

On top of that, you're right, many people still live with the effects. I went to school with a kid who was Native American (can't remeber the tribe) and who's parents did not allow him to cut his hair because of their tradition. He was tormented by the other kids.

And it's not just blacks who are the victims of culteral unpleasentries. (yes, I made it a word. ;) )

Many Hispanics treated me like crap, of course because of color.

And no, before anyone says, I'm not a racist. In fact, some of my best friends were Hispanic. And it goes to show; having a/many bad experiences with a racial group is no excuse for being biased against the entire nationality.

So, my point resurfaces. Just because slavery was in this country does not mean that it is every white's need to apologize. I haven't ever said I was pro-slavery. Perhaps in a past life I was a slave owner, but ya know what, most slave owners treated their's quite well, even in modern retro-spect. It was'nt as comon to see owners who treated their's with the cruelty seen in the films.

[JoeEllison]

Key word were. Past tense.


It's almost comical in my opinion to apologize when it didn't happen in any of our life times.

If they're gonna apologize to the Blacks for slavery then they need to apologize to the forever lost Abaqua Native American tribe who threw themselves, women and childeren first, off a cliff in defiance to being assimilated by the white man (the American Government). Not to mention the countless other tribes who were forced to be assimilated or die AND give up their home land PLUS be screwed over 'till death and in some cases become endentured servants. Hmmm, sounds like another incident, don't it?

On top of that, you're right, many people still live with the effects. I went to school with a kid who was Native American (can't remeber the tribe) and who's parents did not allow him to cut his hair because of their tradition. He was tormented by the other kids.

And it's not just blacks who are the victims of culteral unpleasentries. (yes, I made it a word. ;) )

Many Hispanics treated me like crap, of course because of color.

And no, before anyone says, I'm not a racist. In fact, some of my best friends were Hispanic. And it goes to show; having a/many bad experiences with a racial group is no excuse for being biased against the entire nationality.

So, my point resurfaces. Just because slavery was in this country does not mean that it is every white's need to apologize. I haven't ever said I was pro-slavery. Perhaps in a past life I was a slave owner, but ya know what, most slave owners treated their's quite well, even in modern retro-spect. It was'nt as comon to see owners who treated their's with the cruelty seen in the films.
Keep on repeating that stupid strawman of yours, that has been pointed out numerous times in this and other threads. Go on, maybe if you repeat it enough times, people will stop correcting it, and you can lie to yourself that it is true. It seems like a popular thing to do. :cool:

[a_unique_person]

Key word were. Past tense.


Were treated like ,are still living with the effects.

[RadioactiveMan]

It isn't your argument, but you're the one who fallaciously suggested "going back to Africa" as if it were some kind of answer.
I said if that was their beef, then I've got the solution. If that's not the beef, and I don't think it is either (we're agreeing here), then your issue should be with the individual who suggested it as the problem in the first place, not me.

[GreNME]

I said if that was their beef, then I've got the solution. If that's not the beef, and I don't think it is either (we're agreeing here), then your issue should be with the individual who suggested it as the problem in the first place, not me.

And I'm telling you that your solution is faulty. I'm not arguing whether it is or is not a beef, I'm saying that even in the case that it was a beef that your solution is looking at the wrong country.

[RadioactiveMan]

Okay, then if that was their beef, what's your solution?

[balrog666]

Okay, then if that was their beef, what's your solution?


You posted in this thread, so something, somewhere, must be your fault. :rolleyes:

[RadioactiveMan]

Well, I'm white, too. Everything's at least partly my fault.

[balrog666]

Well, I'm white, too. Everything's at least partly my fault.


Mao Tse Tung's Revolution was all your fault? That was you!? :eye-poppi

Wow!

Oh, and the next time you take out your trash, you should fix Zimbabwe again. :rolleyes:

[RadioactiveMan]

I think if we burn it to the ground, it would probably be a pretty good start.

[billydkid]

Your entire post is a part gigantic strawman, and part rejection of civilization. You don't seem to understand the difference between "responsibility" and "blame", for instance. We have a collective responsibility as citizens to correct the things that are wrong in our society. That doesn't automatically mean we carry individual blame for those things.

Plus, calling affirmative action "racist" is part of that bizarre reversal of positions that seems racist to me. There seems to be a trend of the privileged white majority to consider any correction of institutional racism, or even discussion of the facts of institutional racism in this country, and being the real racism in America. Blaming the victims the way you appear to be doing is just nasty as all hell.Don't you see that the problem is collectivism itself - it is treating people as part of a group and not as individuals that leads people presuming they have the right to enslave other groups of people. I grew up in no way privileged and am not part of any "privileged white minority". Maybe you should talk to some of the people who grew up around here, dirt poor, with rotting teeth and no medical care and living in abandoned school busses and tell them how responsible they are for the way they have oppressed minorities and how they need to "give back" for all their privilege. Affirmative action is, specifically and by definition racist. It distinguishes between people specifically by their ethnicity. Racism is racism is racism. There is not "good racism" and "bad racism". It sounds like "white man's burden" stuff to me.

If that is not racism I don't know what is. There is no such thing as collective responsibility and the entire notion serves to nothing more than to relieve people of specific and personal responsibility. I can't help but remember the long extinct poster in here who made a habit of calling anyone who disagreed with him racist. He specifically called me racist for quoting Dr. King that people should be judged by the content of their character. I am white, but my relatives didn't come to this country until the beginning of the 20th century - and somehow I have responsibility for what some OTHER peoples ancestors did 200 years ago?

My personal opinion is that your position is indefensible, both morally and logically. I am responsible for what I do and how I treat other people. To suppose that I am in any way responsible for the behavior and attitudes of others - let alone others who lived hundreds of years before I was even born - merely because I share their ethnic background is patently absurd. Furthermore, the tactic of, essentially, pitting powerless people against each other over issues like race and fanning the flames of discord is the tried and true strategy of those who have owned and run the world since the beginning. Let's keep poking at the wound so we can keep it open and festering and everyone is distracted from seeing who is really screwing them and from seeing their real enemies are.

There are more than enough people of all races and ilks who are more than happy to exploit "racial consciousness" and racial tension for their own purposes and to serve as the self righteous moral "conscience" for the rest of us. Frankly, I think most people are too stupid to see how they are being used to further the agenda of self serving and self appointed spokesmen for "equality".

What is this "blaming the victim" crap? In what possible way to you come to that conclusion? I think people should be treated and judged as individuals and held accountable for their behavior as individuals. You seem to think that we are each part of some ethnically derived group and as such are vaguely responsible for the actions of others from the same group. You tell me which view is more "racist".

[Travis]

Holy moley. What the hell is this? I address an argument with one person, and then someone else comes along and makes the same arguments in the same thread?

So you didn't write this post:

A good "deed" to start with would be promoting an honest conversation on race and ethnicity in this country. The problem so far is that such conversations either turn into both sides yelling different forms of "racist" at each other or it's a constant escalation of strawman arguments by each side until it finally reaches the point of yelling "racist" at each other.

We can't even seem to make it past what would normally be a primary step on this issue-- an intellectually honest conversation-- so exactly why would asking for better from people be a ridiculous thing?

....which prompted me to explain that having that "intellectually honest conversation" is impossible due to how ridiculous the notion that talking about the issue now, over a hundred years after the issue in question was resolved, can somehow change the past.

[GreNME]

Okay, then if that was their beef, what's your solution?

For starters, not suggesting people move "back to Africa" as if it were a serious suggestion.

So you didn't write this post:



....which prompted me to explain that having that "intellectually honest conversation" is impossible due to how ridiculous the notion that talking about the issue now, over a hundred years after the issue in question was resolved, can somehow change the past.

No one is suggesting that the past gets changed. However, what you seem to be dismissing is that there is still a lot of baggage from that past that is currently unresolved, and while there have definitely been great strides in trying to resolve them there tends to also be just enough opposition to even address the issue to turn it into an argument where people are more worried about avoiding (or assigning) blame than actually addressing the baggage that is more existent than blame. Trying to argue about blame is skipping right over the point.

The reality is that there are still disparities that exist. The reality is that there are still areas of tension where there logically doesn't need to be. This isn't some kind of made-up fantasy that exists solely in the mind of some liberal professors who are wrenched up with guilt. It's not about liberal or conservative in any political sense at all, despite how politicians (or political parties) might say otherwise. The unique nature to black history is that, for nearly a century, the integration of blacks into American culture was stunted to the point where there was, in many cases, a parallel culture that developed and is currently still in the process of integrating into the larger American culture as a whole. That isn't an impossible topic to have a conversation about, but it is difficult due to a lot of baggage on both sides (black and white) in many cases. There are plenty of people who have examined the topic in ways that are intellectually honest, and not just with the goal of being a healer or a revolutionary-- some have written about the economic or social parts of the topic, while others still might examine education or history. If you like, I can get you a list of some of my favorite authors on the subject as an example of those I think have looked at things honestly, even though i don't necessarily agree with all of their conclusions.

There's about a generation of separation between those who remember the institutional racism of the recent past and those to whom even the concept of institutional racism is a figment or a ridiculous concept. As such, there's a lot of clash on the topic of the history of racism and how it could or does affect people today. I agree with people like John McWhorter who say that the alleged disparity between blacks and whites in the workplace nationwide is more likely in the eighty percent range and not the sixties, while I also agree with people like Barack Obama who has said of the years of Jim Crow legacy that "the memories of humiliation, doubt and fear have not gone away." Those two men are both of just about the same generation as mine and I think both have opined on the topic in an intellectually honest manner, and they don't necessarily agree on all counts. So it's possible to have a conversation on the topic, and I don't think it's one that has taken place enough.

[a_unique_person]

So you didn't write this post:



....which prompted me to explain that having that "intellectually honest conversation" is impossible due to how ridiculous the notion that talking about the issue now, over a hundred years after the issue in question was resolved, can somehow change the past.

Not everyone agrees it's been resolved. Slavery is ended, but the after effects aren't.

[gumboot]

I am of the opinion that as humans live in a society, humans are responsible for the actions of that society. As such, we inherit the wrongs of our past.

My ancestors were not New Zealanders - on my mother's side I'm first generation and on my father's side I'm second. My ancestors arrived well after the first European settlers, well after the land wars of the 1860's, and certainly well after the first Maori arrived.

However, my society - the society I live in now - has to carry the consequences of those actions. The pillage of our natural environment by native Maori and then by Europeans has cost us dearly, and I accept that it's something I have to pay for in part - so some of my taxes go to "righting the wrongs".

This notion that an individual lives in perfect isolation from their society is nonsense. I aren't surprised to hear it from Americans, as your culture has developed much more in a "me" direction, whereas here it's much more of a "we" direction (although your self-absorbed culture is slowly rubbing off on us).

It is undeniable that the actions of the past continue to ripple through time and affect the present for thousands of years. What we do today will continue to have consequences for our descendants and their society for centuries. Recognising mistakes in the past, and rectifying them is a worthy endeavour.

But for me there is a line. The purpose of confronting mistakes in our collective past is to learn from them, and try do better from now on, so that our descendants don't have to learn from our mistakes. But that past should not harm the present.

I've read an argument in this thread for an apology actually harming society - the idea that it's akin to "picking at a wound" and could produce resentment divided along racial lines. I'm not wise enough in such matters to assess the validity of that claim, but it does seem robust enough to warrant closer consideration. Likewise an apology could help improve current society.

So again, the impact of an apology has to be carefully weighed. It's nice to apologise for wrongs in the past. But that should never come at the expense of creating new wrongs in the present.

Our past should teach us, not haunt us.

For what it's worth, I am of the opinion that things like apologies to black people for slavery and indicative that racism still exists. As long as people are thought of as "black" or "white" you have racism. I noted remarks about the "white lawyer" in a "black area". That's racism. Plain and simple.

The day when people cease to describe others as "black" or "white" is when racism has gone, and when that occurs, you won't be able to apologise to historic victims of racism, because there won't be anyone to apologise to.

[billydkid]

I think I understand where someone might have gotten the idea that I was "blaming the victim", but that is a complete misreading. I was saying that the idea of collective responsibility relieves those who are specifically responsible of some of their particular responsibility and spreads it around to people who are not responsible in any sense. Actually, I don't care at all whether or not the government apologizes for slavery and even if the government payed "reparations" I wouldn't really give a rat's ass - this in as much as the government has never represented me or my interests in any way shape or form and I have no influence or control over the government.

[billydkid]

The day when people cease to describe others as "black" or "white" is when racism has gone, and when that occurs, you won't be able to apologise to historic victims of racism, because there won't be anyone to apologise to.And you don't think that dwelling on our blackness or whiteness and promoting "racial consciousness" is exactly the way to ensure that this never happens.

[GreNME]

gumboot, just wanted to say great post.

[supercorgi]

Who are they going to apologise to? If you could find a slave it might be ok to apologise to them but I doubt if you'll find a slave here in the USA. Who is going to do the apologising? Any slave owners here in the USA? None of my ancestors owned slaves and they weren't responsible for slaves being here so who would I apologise to?

I've got to agree with that. My ancestors came tom the USA in 1632. Did they have slaves? I don't know.(They were Yankees so maybe they didn't - the northeast wasn't great for slave labor).

Basically, people have been screwing people form time out of mind. Everyone, at some point, has cr**pped on other people. Britain was one big mass of invasions from the get go. Waves of it from Europe - Celts, Saxons, Normans, Vikings, etc No country has been immune. Yes horrible things have happened and we must remember them so we don't repeat them -- but we can't make up for the past. Modern generations are not responsible for the injustices of the past - how can we be, we're different people! The past needs to lie still, not to be forgotten, but put in memory so that we can move on and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[GreNME]

And again, if the topic of the conversation was about you or your family you might have a point. Since the apology that was issued was from the government as a legislative body, the responses of "I didn't have anything to do with it" aren't addressing the content of the resolution.

[kedo1981]

You know if reparations are made it would seem to me I'd need to photoshop some more "colorful" ancestors into my family album. HOE HOE sounds like a great underground business for the future.

[GreNME]

http://image.grenme.com/thread/NTSA.jpg

[Gurdur]

It's interesting, watching all the petty little resentful ones boil out -- and watching them angrily deny they're racists. No, of course they're not racists, they're just very upset about not being treated like whites should be treated or something, all protesting the oppression of whites. Whiney whiney whine.

[GreNME]

I don't think it's outright racism. I do think that there are some underlying resentments that are getting in the way of seeing the picture clearly. There's a lot of baggage connected to the topic, especially in the US.

[BPSCG]

Perhaps I, as a Belgian-American, should go apologize to some Native Americans for the Japanese rape of Chinese Nanking. It would make just as much sense and be just as pointless.No, you should apologize to Africans in today's Congo for what Belgium's King Leopold did to them in the 19th century.

[BPSCG]

It's interesting, watching all the petty little resentful ones boil out -- and watching them angrily deny they're racists. No, of course they're not racists, they're just very upset about not being treated like whites should be treated or something, all protesting the oppression of whites. Whiney whiney whine.Yes, because everyone knows that the only possible reason one could have for opposing an apology is because he's a racist.

To those who say that what's needed is not an individual apology, but rather one from the U.S. government, for the government's role in allowing the institution, might I suggest you read your history? Slavery existed here more than 150 years before there even was a United States. The authors of the Constitution wrangled long and hard over what to do about slavery. Any attempt to abolish it outright in 1787-88 would have resulted in the dissolution of the country, as the southern states would never have agreed.

So the Constitution was written to compromise on the issue, accepting the evil for what was perceived as a greater good, and with a clear eye to the institution's eventual demise. It provided for an eventual ban on the importation of slaves (after 1808), and over the years, the Congress passed a number of restrictions on slavery in the terrirtories.

The United States found slavery in its midst long before it became a country. It did what it could over the years to limit its growth and hopefully, to starve the institution, while preserving the greater good of the country's existence. Eventually, those measures all failed and the country was forced to pay a terrible price in order to both preserve itself and kill the evil.

But that's not apology enough, in some eyes. Nothing less than a public mea maxima culpa from our wicked government will satisfy some people - and probably not even that.

[Cainkane1]

Various illegal imigrants have ended up in conditions of slavery.
So they can go back to mexico.

[Travis]

Why do we keep talking about racism when this is supposed to be about slavery? They are two entirely different things. Someone could have supported slavery and not have been racist. Likewise one could have been racist and not have supported slavery.

Slavery ended in 1865 a 143 years ago. I keep seeing talk about economic and educational disparities....how is any of that related to slavery? It might, might mind you, be related to "racism" but it has nothing to do with slavery. If a white cop beats up a black suspect....how is that related to slavery? Did the cop intend to enslave the suspect? Were segregated schools the result of slavery....or were they the result of racism?

I bring it up because it would be helpful to clarify exactly what it is we're are talking about here; slavery or racism? Both are blights of history but only one continues to remain, albeit barely, in the USA today.

[Jon_Stripe]

Keep on repeating that stupid strawman of yours, that has been pointed out numerous times in this and other threads. Go on, maybe if you repeat it enough times, people will stop correcting it, and you can lie to yourself that it is true. It seems like a popular thing to do. :cool:

Dude, what the Hell is that supposed to mean???

[GreNME]

Why do we keep talking about racism when this is supposed to be about slavery? They are two entirely different things. Someone could have supported slavery and not have been racist. Likewise one could have been racist and not have supported slavery.

Slavery ended in 1865 a 143 years ago. I keep seeing talk about economic and educational disparities....how is any of that related to slavery? It might, might mind you, be related to "racism" but it has nothing to do with slavery. If a white cop beats up a black suspect....how is that related to slavery? Did the cop intend to enslave the suspect? Were segregated schools the result of slavery....or were they the result of racism?

I bring it up because it would be helpful to clarify exactly what it is we're are talking about here; slavery or racism? Both are blights of history but only one continues to remain, albeit barely, in the USA today.

Did you read the text of the apology?

[Darth Rotor]

Were treated like ,are still living with the effects.
Yeah, nice nebulous spray paint there.

Are you referring to effects such as this:
Larry Johnson of the New York Knicks, in an interview, 1999: (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E6D91F3BF930A15755C0A96F9582 60&n=Top%2FReference%2FTimes%20Topics%2FPeople%2FJ%2F Johnson%2C%20Larry)
''We've got a lot of rebellious slaves on this team,'' Johnson said yesterday. ''We don't have a lot of mainstream; we don't go with the mainstream. We're in a different stream on this team. We've got a lot of rebellious slaves. We don't go along with the masses.''
With enough bizarre rhetoric on the history of slavery in the US, and on the trouble many blacks have run into due to societal institutions, you see something like the above and wonder how that gets into the conversation, at eight to ten million per year. Johnson later tried to explain where he was coming from, but the New York sports media certainly got a lot of mileage out of that curious, athletic utterance.

@GreNME

1. What's white male angst got to do with it? :confused: (Your reply to bigred)

2. Your politicians and face time point: scores 10 of 10 on the common sense meter.

DR

[GreNME]

@GreNME

1. What's white male angst got to do with it? :confused: (Your reply to bigred)

It's a half-pith, half serious statement. The reality that is even displayed in this thread is that there is a tendency to get quite defensive about the topic of an apology or in some cases the relationship between slavery and racism (against blacks) to begin with. There are several reasons for the reaction, but they seem most commonly and consistently espoused by overwhelming majority by white, middle-class males-- historically the absolute least discriminated demographic on the planet.

If it helps, read that again while this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcr8dm9Prkk) is playing.
Dcr8dm9Prkk

2. Your politicians and face time point: scores 10 of 10 on the common sense meter.

So why don't we get so outraged when they do their normal kissing of hands and shaking of babies?