I can't see why they bother with the "Flight 93" conspiracy.

[TheRedWorm]

Thanks, DGM.

[Grizzly Bear]

Thank you for providing an example of a plane crash. It looks nothing like the ditch in Shanksville. See the engine off to the side? See all the dispersed plane material? See how big the crash zone is?

Did you see this engine red?
LINK (http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/db_images/db_P200060-11.jpg)

And what the hell happened to this plane? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/310000/images/_313440_huntcrash300.jpg)
Here's the press release for you even... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/313440.stm)


Oh... and what caused this?
LINK (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/am498/2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/am498/2.shtml&h=545&w=400&sz=77&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=eI8EvAg3Q6g2rM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAeromexico%2BAugust%2B1986%26um%3D1%2 6hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)

Red... between the everglades crash and the above the viewable amounts of debris isn't suitable evidence to argue whether or not a plane crashed at a site. If I went by your standards I'd have considered the Everglades valujet crash a conspiracy long ago... the same for the above other examples.

[Pardalis]

Without questioning anyone's sincerity, reporting evidence is not the same as evidence.

No, I'm making the distinction between physical evidence and eyewitness testimony.

It's not a matter of believing them. If you look at an empty ditch and someone says a plane crashed there, it's natural to ask where the pieces are.

Unbelievable.

So nothing short of pictures of shredded human flesh would satisfy you?

The testimonies of career pathologists and forensic experts isn't evidence to you?

Gravy's links are full of their statements, and surely you can contact them to alleviate your doubts.

Other than that you'll never going to get the pictures you need, you're just asking for the impossible. They are just not going to make these pictures public, unless you ask them.

[funk de fino]

Please post quotes of people saying they handled "the plane." From what I've read of the quotes, most of them describe very small pieces of metal scattered around, described much like the scrap in the scrapyard a half mile away.

Aircraft engines are small scrap parts Red?

The scrap yard half a mile away had those sitting around did it?

Where did the passengers body parts and DNA come from?

FDR and CVR small scrap parts as well eh?

[Pardalis]

Where did the passengers body parts and DNA come from?

Red rejects the forensic experts' testimonies because to him it's just "eyewitness testimony"... :boggled:

Without questioning anyone's sincerity, reporting evidence is not the same as evidence.
No, I'm making the distinction between physical evidence and eyewitness testimony.

It's not a matter of believing them.

Red seems to suffer from massive cognitive dissonance.

He says both at the same time that he doesn't believe their accounts and it's not a question of believing them. :boggled:

[beachnut]

Please post quotes of people saying they handled "the plane." From what I've read of the quotes, most of them describe very small pieces of metal scattered around, described much like the scrap in the scrapyard a half mile away.
Here is quote of the guy digging out the engine of flight 93. You know Flight 93, the people who figured out 9/11 in minutes and after 6 years you are being obstinate to learn what they knew in minutes, and they took action. Sad for you, good for all that there are people who solve problems and take action!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris22sm.jpg
PW2037 engine, from Flight 93, and the passengers figure out 9/11 before Dictator Cheney did, and they took action instead of messing it up with false ideas and lies!

This could take logical thinking... Caution

[DC]

what is the serial number of that engine?

[Pardalis]

what is the serial number of that engine?

Can't you find out for yourself?

[beachnut]

Thank you for providing an example of a plane crash. It looks nothing like the ditch in Shanksville. See the engine off to the side? See all the dispersed plane material? See how big the crash zone is?
You are pathetic at research. there is junk all over the place! A 600 mph impact is big. Here is debris spread over the south of the impact! The plane was heading south when it hit.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris21sm.jpg
Why is the truth movement so dumb on aircraft impacts?
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris8sm.jpg

Failure to understand 9/11 may stem from ignorance in aircraft impacts. There are trained aircraft accident investigators, the USAF has Hundreds. They could help you understand that you have no clue in this field.

[funk de fino]

what is the serial number of that engine?

You would need to find the small aluminum data plate that would have rivetted onto the engine. I wonder where it might be?

If we found it you would cry fake. We know your game DC.

[Pardalis]

Pictures of plane debris don't convince him, testimonies from experts don't convince him.

What will? Seriously, what kind of evidence do you require Red?

[RedIbis]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Here is quote of the guy digging out the engine of flight 93.

Do you understand the difference between a quote and a picture?

[beachnut]

Do you understand the difference between a quote and a picture?
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris9sm.jpg

"As a state police fire marshal and criminal investigator, Trooper John F. Marshall has seen his share of gruesome crime scenes. "I found a lot of parts," said Marshall, who was awarded a 2000 Law Enforcement Agency Directors award for identifying a man nearly four years after he was found murdered. "The biggest part I found was one of the plane's engines. It was about 600 yards from the crash site itself. I think they took it out with a winch on a bulldozer." Marshall, who served four years in the Air Force, said he found many parts that he couldn't specifically identify.Whenever he found a suspected part, he would notify the FBI or United employees." - sharon-herald.com (10/08/01)
"Bits of metal were thrown against a tree line like shrapnel, said state police spokesman Trooper Thomas Spallone of Troop A in Greensburg. Once it hit, everything just disintegrated,” he said. “There are just shreds of metal. The longest piece I saw was 2 feet long.” “We’re finding more debris in various locations,” Spallone said."
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris18sm.jpg

I understand you don't have a clue.

Ironic that the people who died in this impact, they understand 9/11 in a few minutes and took action, you are so research challenged it has taken you over 6 years to mess it up so you don't have a clue. Why do you lack logic to figure out 9/11? Compared to the passengers on Flight 93, you are not doing very good.

Keep up the good work!

[Pardalis]

Red, what will convince you that these people died there?

[beachnut]

after seeing adam get fooled by your disinformation i thought i would temporarily take you off ignore just to humiliate you for old times sake.

please post a picture capturing the wooden area destroyed in the attack and indian lake. then prove those woods are south of the crash site and not west/southwest blast trajectory. the world will be waiting for you to admit you are both ignorant as an ass and completely wrong as usual.
[/font][/color]

Several local people believe they hear a missile overhead just before Flight 93 goes down. Barry Lichty, a US Navy veteran and mayor of Indian Lake Borough (just to the east of where Flight 93 crashes), is watching television with his wife. He says he hears “a loud roar above the house that sounded like a missile.… Shortly thereafter, we heard an explosion and a tremor. My first reaction, as a former utility employee, was that maybe someone shot a missile into the substation.” He says Flight 93 “did not come over my house. I don’t know what we heard.” [Kashurba, 2002, pp. 158-159 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0972103163/centerforcoop-20)]



so what plane flew over his house prior to the crash in shanksville about a mile or two west of his house troll?




i don't know, what?

wally miller said the debris all blasted into that wooden area which is the opposite direction of indian lake. in fact all the 'bystanders' would be standing in this imaginary debris trail you insist exists but like always have no evidence to support your baseless insane conspiracy theories with.


you sure do beachy.....this is why you're on ignore with bobert.
2 peas in a pod and half a brain shared between you two......
Down is south, left is west. Why are you wrong again? The lake is to the right.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/93crater.jpg
The debris flows to the south! 93 was heading south. I may be ignorant, but you think south is west; no wonder you are lost on 9/11 issues. Being wrong is not a healthy habit for me, I flew jets, but being wrong for you is your profession.

See the buildings SOUTH OF THE IMPACT?
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris8sm.jpg
Debris, south of impact! Oops.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris21sm.jpg
South of 93 impact. I am ignorant (on tons of stuff), but your ideas are dirt dumb stupid wrong on 9/11. South. You have problems with, "saw it hit the building" too, right?


The Mayor never said he saw Flight 93 over his house, he heard the sound of Flight 93! That means you are making up the idea that 93 flew over Indian Lake. Pure fantasy, proven wrong by many other facts, evidence and witnesses. Sorry, you lost this one, next time don't make up lies you can back up with facts.

Wally Miller? You have a knack for not understanding how to interpret anything said by anybody! This proves that again.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You take testimony and twist it to fit your conclusion! You say flight 93 flew over the lake, someone hears a jet overhead, you use it! And you are wrong!

[Pardalis]

Bump for RedIbis

Red, what will convince you that these people died there?

[Mince]

U.S. Government Overlord #1: We need Flight 93 to take out WTC 7.

U.S. Government Overlord #2: So, why don't we shoot down flight 93? Then we can CD WTC 7 in such a bad way that a handful of sub-intellects will be able to figure us out.

U.S. Government Overlord #1: I'll get my top men on it.



Demonstrates just how fractured the "truthers" fantasies are. I mean, if they had anything conclusive or empirical, they'd all have one big circle jerk agree fest.

[Pardalis]

Rebump for RedIbis

Bump for RedIbis
Red, what will convince you that these people died there?

[A W Smith]

It's not enough that he's self loathing. He needs to make the entire world loath him as well. Why are you all bothering with this bird troll?

[Pardalis]

Re-rebump for RedIbis
Rebump for RedIbis

Bump for RedIbis
Red, what will convince you that these people died there?

[applecorped]

Re-rebump for RedIbis

Get your jammies on. It's gonna be a long wait.

[Pardalis]

Get your jammies on. It's gonna be a long wait.

That's the new approach I'm trying in dealing with these people.

I'm not going to be suckered into arguing endlessly about every little detail, and let them change the subject whenever they like and avoid the answers and the reality that they imply. I'm taking it one question at a time, and I'm not going to take no for an answer.

[tsig]

Please post quotes of people saying they handled "the plane." From what I've read of the quotes, most of them describe very small pieces of metal scattered around, described much like the scrap in the scrapyard a half mile away.

Ok just where did the people go.

[leftysergeant]

why dont you belive the ppl that reported Explosions and think it was explosives?

why dont you belive withnesses that saw the plane on the northside of Citgo?

Because there are conflicting and more supported statements arguing against the North of Citgo stastements and there is evidence of other, more plausiblle expalnations of most of the reproted "explosions" like the ones that Schroeder and Cacchioli heard.

[leftysergeant]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris9sm.jpg



http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris18sm.jpg


That's basicly what I would expect the debris from a crash at that speed into that substrate to look like. Bodies would be torn into pieces of about that size, too, if they were not buried in the impact crater, so that was what the coroner meant by there being no "bodies." There were gobbets of bodies,, but no actual intact bodies.

[AJM8125]

That's basicly what I would expect the debris from a crash at that speed into that substrate to look like. Bodies would be torn into pieces of about that size, too, if they were not buried in the impact crater, so that was what the coroner meant by there being no "bodies." There were gobbets of bodies,, but no actual intact bodies.

Then there's this video, which demonstrates what happens to airplanes in a high speed crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrT6joi4gco

It is PSA Flight #1771, which is eerily similar to the crash of flight 93, right down to the first responder quotes, to the the impact crater, to the debris field. When I first saw this, I thought I was looking at Shanksville.

Flight 1771 was hijacked and purposely crashed. It went into the ground supersonic.

[leftysergeant]

It also went into harder ground, at a steeper angle, which would keep more of the wreckage above ground and closer to the point of impact.

Good example of what is wrong with the twoofer approach to Flt 93.

[njslim]

Sarge

Seen a crash site up close and personal - Lear 35 came down 20 years ago just up
street. As member of FD walked the crash scene to mark body parts for coroner.

Didn't find much recognizable - half of torso, hand (minus fingers), several amputated
fingers.

Unlike "twofers" actually had to do something rather than mooch off Mommy watching
idiotic videos.

[PhantomWolf]

Then there's this video, which demonstrates what happens to airplanes in a high speed crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrT6joi4gco

It is PSA Flight #1771, which is eerily similar to the crash of flight 93, right down to the first responder quotes, to the the impact crater, to the debris field. When I first saw this, I thought I was looking at Shanksville.

Flight 1771 was hijacked and purposely crashed. It went into the ground supersonic.

Must have been staged in preperation for 9/11, after all they claim that licences, IDs and even a sickbag with a note on it all survived and we all know that things like passports, licences, ID cards and paper bags can't survive an air crash.

[Walter Ego]

Then there's this video, which demonstrates what happens to airplanes in a high speed crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrT6joi4gco

It is PSA Flight #1771, which is eerily similar to the crash of flight 93, right down to the first responder quotes, to the the impact crater, to the debris field. When I first saw this, I thought I was looking at Shanksville.

Flight 1771 was hijacked and purposely crashed. It went into the ground supersonic.

Wow, not only does the hole in the ground look like Shanksville, but starting at the 8:45 mark in that video, the investigator mentions debris found 7 or 8 miles away from the crash site just like... at Shanksville! :jaw-dropp

Are you sure that plane wasn't shot down by a missle?

[Magenta]

Then there's this video, which demonstrates what happens to airplanes in a high speed crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrT6joi4gco

It is PSA Flight #1771, which is eerily similar to the crash of flight 93, right down to the first responder quotes, to the the impact crater, to the debris field. When I first saw this, I thought I was looking at Shanksville.

Flight 1771 was hijacked and purposely crashed. It went into the ground supersonic.


Interesting, thanks for posting that. I wonder what our resident truthers will have to say about it.

Must have been staged in preperation for 9/11, after all they claim that licences, IDs and even a sickbag with a note on it all survived and we all know that things like passports, licences, ID cards and paper bags can't survive an air crash.


Obviously the sickbag with the note on it and the gun fragment with skin cells attached were planted to incriminate an innocent man. (Reminded me of those who think finding the red bandanna was improbable and therefore it had to have been planted.)

I wonder if the NTSB remembered to include the serial numbers of the CVR and FDR on their report. Because leaving those off would render the whole investigation worthless. :rolleyes:

[AJM8125]

Interesting, thanks for posting that. I wonder what our resident truthers will have to say about it.

Probably dismiss it as an invalid comparison; Smaller aircraft, faster impact speed, etc.:boggled:

[Walter Ego]

Then there's this video, which demonstrates what happens to airplanes in a high speed crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrT6joi4gco

It is PSA Flight #1771, which is eerily similar to the crash of flight 93, right down to the first responder quotes, to the the impact crater, to the debris field. When I first saw this, I thought I was looking at Shanksville.

Flight 1771 was hijacked and purposely crashed. It went into the ground supersonic.

Even the quotes of the first responders are similar to Shanksville.

A Call comes in to the San Luis Obispo County, California Sherrif's Office citing a small plane crash in the mountains of southern California. Detective Bill Wammock is the first to arrive on the scene. He recalls “nothing that resembled an airliner... we went on for hours, before we heard the news reports of a missing airliner, believing that we were dealing with a small airplane full of newspapers that had crashed. We saw no pieces of the aircraft that were larger than, maybe, a human hand. It did not look like a passenger aircraft.”

http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-pa1771.shtml

[AJM8125]

Even the quotes of the first responders are similar to Shanksville.

And not a single response from da twoof in over 24 hours. The silence is deafening. :D

[leftysergeant]

I posted it to another board myself, about as soon as i finished commenting on it here.

Nada.

Which is really wierd, because I usually have a couple Sturmwahrheiter on my case like ugly on a baboon every time I open a thread over there.

[Pardalis]

Bada-bump for RedIbis

Re-rebump for RedIbis
Rebump for RedIbis
Bump for RedIbis
Red, what will convince you that these people died there?




It's a relatively simple question Red, why don't you answer it?

What kind of evidence will convince you?

[Pardalis]

Red, you've been shown pictures of plane parts at the site, they didn't convince you.

So pictures are not evidence for you, so if you were shown pictures of body parts, it follows that these pictures would also not convince you. ☑

You've been shown testimonies from people on the scene, rescue workers and forensic experts who picked up pieces of human. It didn't convince you either.

So witness testimonies don't convince you. ☑

You've also been shown reports from pathologists who analyzed the DNA from the scraps of human body parts recovered from the scene and they positively identified the crew and passengers. It didn't convince you.

So expert reports and analyses don't convince you. ☑

So again, my question: what kind of evidence will convince you?

[RedIbis]

Red, you've been shown pictures of plane parts at the site, they didn't convince you.

So pictures are not evidence for you, so if you were shown pictures of body parts, it follows that these pictures would also not convince you. ☑

You've been shown testimonies from people on the scene, rescue workers and forensic experts who picked up pieces of human. It didn't convince you either.

So witness testimonies don't convince you. ☑

You've also been shown reports from pathologists who analyzed the DNA from the scraps of human body parts recovered from the scene and they positively identified the crew and passengers. It didn't convince you.

So expert reports and analyses don't convince you. ☑

So again, my question: what kind of evidence will convince you?

A non leading, non obnoxiously bumped direct question will get you everywhere.

You said that there are plane parts at the site. Actually, the pictures that were released immediately after the event do not show these parts. The only part in the ditch is lamely propped (pun intended) in a backhoe bucket, which was released years after the fact. Other than the five or six Mossaui trial photos, what parts are you talking about?

To answer your question more specifically, we would need to first find out where the wreckage (95% by CNN's account) is being stored. Can it be photographed? Can it be analyzed? Do any of the parts have serial numbers?

You may not, but some poster is going to scream, "why should they open up all their evidence to every twoofie who isn't satisfied with the investigation?"

And therein lies the masterstroke.

[TheRedWorm]

No, you didn't answer the question. What kind of evidence will convince you? You only asked questions, not answered them.

ETA: By the way, how is: "Red, what will convince you that these people died there? " leading? How is it not direct?

[Pardalis]

A non leading, non obnoxiously bumped direct question will get you everywhere.

How is it a leading question? "What kind of evidence will convince you" is pretty straight-forward.

The only reason it got bumped is because you kept ignoring it. I think it's a pretty crucial question in order to understand why you keep doubting when all the evidence is clear.

You said that there are plane parts at the site. Actually, the pictures that were released immediately after the event do not show these parts. The only part in the ditch is lamely propped (pun intended) in a backhoe bucket, which was released years after the fact. Other than the five or six Mossaui trial photos, what parts are you talking about?http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page2
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page3

To answer your question more specifically, we would need to first find out where the wreckage (95% by CNN's account) is being stored. Can it be photographed? Can it be analyzed? Do any of the parts have serial numbers? Surely you can investigate that. Why don't you go and ask the proper authorities?

Are you so incredulous for every plane crash? Are you going to ask to physically see the plane parts of every accident that happens?

You may not, but some poster is going to scream, "why should they open up all their evidence to every twoofie who isn't satisfied with the investigation?"

And therein lies the masterstroke.What about the DNA? The FDR?

[beachnut]

A non leading, non obnoxiously bumped direct question will get you everywhere.

You said that there are plane parts at the site. Actually, the pictures that were released immediately after the event do not show these parts. The only part in the ditch is lamely propped (pun intended) in a backhoe bucket, which was released years after the fact. Other than the five or six Mossaui trial photos, what parts are you talking about?

To answer your question more specifically, we would need to first find out where the wreckage (95% by CNN's account) is being stored. Can it be photographed? Can it be analyzed? Do any of the parts have serial numbers?

You may not, but some poster is going to scream, "why should they open up all their evidence to every twoofie who isn't satisfied with the investigation?"

And therein lies the masterstroke.
WRONG. Why are you wrong all the time on everything about 9/11?
On that day there was video showing all the debris and it was enough for most people who understand high energy impacts to see 93 had impacted!

You are showing how little you try to understand 9/11. How long have you been displaying this level of ignorance on 9/11 topics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc) Oops, you are wrong, the debris was shown on 9/11! OOPS.
The funny part is, these news dolts say there is no much of the aircraft there, but show video of thousands of pieces of aircraft! Funny how the news quotes become the slogans of brain dead truthers, repeating the stuff they hear from news on the day, that means zero! This video is used by truther to say there are no parts, but the video shows thousands of parts. How pathetic.


Your truth movement has no evidence, but you sure make up fake ideas about the real evidence. How do you prove the DNA was faked? Who are your experts? You don't have one graduate of an aircraft accident investigation course do you?

[Pardalis]

And BTW Red, if you were allowed to see the debris in some hangar in Pennsylvania, who says they would the the actual plane parts found on the site seven years ago?

You don't believe photos because they could have been made up.

You don't believe in witnesses, because they could have been paid.

You don't believe in the debris, because they could have been planted.

You don't believe in debris because you're not allowed to see them in person.

You don't believe in experts and pathologists' words, because they could be paid.

So you're putting yourself in a position of constant deniability. That's not skepticism, it's denialism.

[RedIbis]

And BTW Red, if you were allowed to see the debris in some hangar in Pennsylvania, who says they would the the actual plane parts found on the site seven years ago?




That's the whole point of independent forensic investigation, to make this determination.

[Pardalis]

That's the whole point of independent forensic investigation, to make this determination.

And who will be more qualified than the experts who already did the analysis?

Give me one name or organisation.

[funk de fino]

That's the whole point of independent forensic investigation, to make this determination.

Notice you snipped the rest cause it was too close to the bone?

You are so desperate you want the 911 CT to be true. You want it so bad you ignore everything and deny everything that shows CT claims to be false. What is it that has made an obviously intelligent person like yourself turn into this illogical and irrational persona we see here? I see the usual trolls and morons here, some of whom are mentally deficient, some just plain thick and some quite deranged and it is obvious you are not one of them. When the NTSB analyze the FDR do you think the govt have told them what to put out? When Wally Miller did his tests did he toe the party line? Did all those thousands of people who attended the crash site not notice there were no aircraft parts there? Did the people who saw it crash there not actually see a plane crash? Where is the plane Red? Where are the people? Are the airline keeping it secret that they do not in fact have the remains of their aircraft? Is the CVR recording fake? Did the phone calls not happen?

Why do you want the CT to be true so much? Have you invested too much into it you cannot lose face now?

[DGM]

Update on my quest to find the disposition of the wreckage:

So far no one at United Airlines can confirm they actually accepted the offer of the return of the parts (the offer was made). I am filing a FOIA request to the FBI, FAA and the NTSB to finally clearify (hopefully) what became of the wreakage.

I'll post the results when I find out.