Uppity

[Alferd_Packer]

So, when referring to Obama, are the terms "Hubris," "Presumptive," and "Doesn't know his place" just code words for "Uppity N-----?"

[Upchurch]

Oh. So this thread isn't about me.

Never mind.

[chipmunk stew]

So, when referring to Obama, are the terms "Hubris," "Presumptive," and "Doesn't know his place" just code words for "Uppity N-----?"
I think you mean "Presumptuous". Don't forget "Arrogant" and "Cocky."

[Texas]

So, when referring to Obama, are the terms "Hubris," "Presumptive," and "Doesn't know his place" just code words for "Uppity N-----?"
Is his love for basketball race based?

[Freddy]

You don't become a major party's nominee for president if you don't have a great deal of confidence in yourself. Of course Obama is arrogant. All politicians are. He and his supporters don't do themselves any favors by crying wolf every time someone says something less than flattering about him.

[Foolmewunz]

No Planet X option? I won't vote because the answer is "Depends...".

Brainster, for instance, has a thread referring to "hubris" in the title. I do not think that Brainster is the slightest bit a racist.

However, MaGZ, in the same thread posts that a good drubbing in the polls would really show Obama his place. (I commented on that, directly, so I'll just recap: Racist Crap!)

So, .... "Depends on who uses the word and in what context."
There is certainly an element who find that Obama is a little too arrogant and that a little humility would go a long way. I would be in that group. And I'll defend my lefty inclusionist credentials against anyone.

[Pookster]

There is certainly an element who find that Obama is a little too arrogant and that a little humility would go a long way.


This may be off-topic, but I found this interesting from a CNN poll this morning ...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/30/campaign.poll/index.html

A third of voters polled said they believe that Obama is arrogant, about the same number who said that of McCain.

[Piscivore]

So, when referring to Obama, are the terms "Hubris," "Presumpt[uous]," and "Doesn't know his place" just code words for "Uppity N-----?"

No, no, and yes.

[David Wong]

I think it's a smart move by the right, they need the racists to come out to vote but can't openly speak in racist terms.

There has to be a way to motivate the racists without talking like one, and this "hubris" talk is a great way to do it. It's such a weird criticism to make otherwise (what humble person decides they should be in charge of the whole country?).

[joobz]

I'll second the
No, no, yes vote.

[varwoche]

So, when referring to Obama, are the terms "Hubris," "Presumptive," and "Doesn't know his place" just code words for "Uppity N-----?"Yes dag blame it (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=117175).

[jj]

Yes, and it's obvious to me.
The Spears/Hilton/Obama thing is a transparent attempt at labelling him "trailer trash" or "ghetto boy", your choice.

It shows both the desparation of the McCain campaign as well as their utter breach of the social contract.

Do we want anyone who allows such behavior as president? No, we don't. He should resign NOW in shame. Geeze. Or fire whoever came up with that lame advert real fast.

[jj]

You don't become a major party's nominee for president if you don't have a great deal of confidence in yourself. Of course Obama is arrogant. All politicians are. He and his supporters don't do themselves any favors by crying wolf every time someone says something less than flattering about him.

So, it's wrong to point out that an accusation is false, you say?

[ProbeX]

I think you mean "Presumptuous". Don't forget "Arrogant" and "Cocky."

What examples can you give that show Obama is any more arrogant than any other presidential hopeful? Details please. Thanks.

[ProbeX]

I think some people calling him "arrogant" are just putting him down because their own choice fell through (Clinton), or is losing now (McCain).

And then there are a few (included in the above group at times), that look at Obama and think he has no right, as a Black man, to be getting so much attention and respect. Some seem to forget that McCain has declared himself "President", presumptuously, in the course of his campaign.

[Drudgewire]

Yes, and it's obvious to me.
The Spears/Hilton/Obama thing is a transparent attempt at labelling him "trailer trash" or "ghetto boy", your choice.


For all the things you can call Paris, is trailer trash really one of them?

And the message I got from the commercial is Obama's an entertainment figure/pop icon rather than a legitimate politician. Whether that's true is in the eye of the beholder, but it couldn't be further from racism.

[Freddy]

So, it's wrong to point out that an accusation is false, you say?

Of course not. That isn't even close to what I said. By "crying wolf" I mean making dubious accusations of racism, not merely responding to the criticism.

What I am saying is that it's stupid to allege that every criticism is some sort of racist code. There are other ways to refute criticism than to claim racism, especially when it's (at least) a bit of a stretch. Even when you can make a case that an ad or label has racist undertones, it won't play well with the general population unless it's a case that would be compelling to someone who isn't scouring every ad and pronouncement for hidden racism.

[dirtywick]

For all the things you can call Paris, is trailer trash really one of them?

And the message I got from the commercial is Obama's an entertainment figure/pop icon rather than a legitimate politician. Whether that's true is in the eye of the beholder, but it couldn't be further from racism.

I agree. They're also known for being out of touch with reality and crazy rich, which I think was the message when followed with some points about how he's going to screw the regular guy over taxes or whatver.

[Freddy]

For all the things you can call Paris, is trailer trash really one of them?

And the message I got from the commercial is Obama's an entertainment figure/pop icon rather than a legitimate politician. Whether that's true is in the eye of the beholder, but it couldn't be further from racism.

I think the "trailer trash" label was for Britney.

[ProbeX]

But what was that comment about how Obama doesn't look like any other president?

[Drudgewire]

But what was that comment about how Obama doesn't look like any other president?


I think that's a suggestion he should grow a big-ass beard like James Garfield. :p

[dudalb]

You don't become a major party's nominee for president if you don't have a great deal of confidence in yourself. Of course Obama is arrogant. All politicians are. He and his supporters don't do themselves any favors by crying wolf every time someone says something less than flattering about him.


Thank You.
I am in the wierd position of probably voting for Obama in November, but having major problems with a lot of his supporters who seem to resent any criticism of him.
What gets to me is the way they will leap on any character flaw they see in McCain, but if somebody does the same for Obama they cry "foul".
One of the problems Obama will have if elected is a year into his presidency, there will be a huge disillusionment factor when he proves not to be the Messiah that a lot of his fervent supporters think he is.

[dudalb]

I think it's a smart move by the right, they need the racists to come out to vote but can't openly speak in racist terms.

There has to be a way to motivate the racists without talking like one, and this "hubris" talk is a great way to do it. It's such a weird criticism to make otherwise (what humble person decides they should be in charge of the whole country?).


Why not just say "Anybody who criticses Obama is a racist" and at least be honest about it.
I don't know if Obama is arrogant or not but a lot of his supporters sure as hell are.

[dudalb]

I think some people calling him "arrogant" are just putting him down because their own choice fell through (Clinton), or is losing now (McCain).

And then there are a few (included in the above group at times), that look at Obama and think he has no right, as a Black man, to be getting so much attention and respect. Some seem to forget that McCain has declared himself "President", presumptuously, in the course of his campaign.

Thanks for proving my point about how Obamaniacs just cannot stand ANY criticism of their Lord and Savior.

[jj]

For all the things you can call Paris, is trailer trash really one of them?


Um, it's a social statement, not an economic statement.


And the message I got from the commercial is Obama's an entertainment figure/pop icon rather than a legitimate politician. Whether that's true is in the eye of the beholder, but it couldn't be further from racism.

Hah.

Perhaps not in your eyes. I am quite sure how it will play to the people I grew up with.

[jj]

Even when you can make a case that an ad or label has racist undertones, it won't play well with the general population unless it's a case that would be compelling to someone who isn't scouring every ad and pronouncement for hidden racism.

So what you're raising is Gresham's law, basically, in the public opinion form.

Yeah, I agree, sadly.

Thing is, I know just exactly how lots of the people I grew up with are hearing these ads, and it's exactly confirmation for their own prejudices they will be hearing.

[jj]

Thanks for proving my point about how Obamaniacs just cannot stand ANY criticism of their Lord and Savior.


Please cite your convincing, absolute evidence for the accusation of unethical behavior cited above.

[dirtywick]

I don't really follow how comparing Obama to two ultra rich, white, celebrity women is insinuating he's ghetto. Maybe I need to brush up on my demographics?

I guess if that's how people are taking it, what are you going to do? Laugh at the ridiculousness of it all I guess.

This election is out of hand.

[Drudgewire]

Perhaps not in your eyes. I am quite sure how it will play to the people I grew up with.


How do you think crying "racism" at any perceived negative comments will play with them? Their vote counts just as much as yours.

[Darth Rotor]

I'll second the
No, no, yes vote.

I'd agree with this vote if I had any evidence that anyone has said that Obama doesn't know his place. It seems obvious. His place is in front of a microphone. He's pretty good at that, and thus has made a good career choice in politics.

DR

[Freddy]

So what you're raising is Gresham's law, basically, in the public opinion form.

Yeah, I agree, sadly.

Thing is, I know just exactly how lots of the people I grew up with are hearing these ads, and it's exactly confirmation for their own prejudices they will be hearing.

I think the ad with Paris and Britney will certainly appeal to racists, but any ad that attacks Obama will appeal to racists. I don't believe that the ad was intended to stir up racism.

I do think it was kind of a childish and lousy ad, but it seems to me that McCain's people were simply riffing on the "empty suit" criticism by comparing Obama to two people who are widely seen as being famous despite never having accomplished anything important. I can't think of anyone who is more widely perceived in this way than Paris Hilton.

Besides, if he had used a couple of black people as his examples for comparison, that could also be perceived as racist (They just chose those people as examples because they're black, like Obama). And I can't think of any black celebrities that scream "famous for absolutely no good reason" more than Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.

[Brainster]

There are an awful lot of people using the terms hubristic and presumptuous to describe Obama, but I don't think anybody's using in the sense that he doesn't have the right to be in the position that he's in, solely because he's black. In other words, when racists used the term uppity to describe blacks the assumption was that they had no right to put on airs; they were still n----rs. The number of people using it in that sense are certainly not many around here or in the chattering classes.

I do think he's something of an arriviste (politically, not economically) in that he has not really paid his dues, but I felt the same way about John Edwards in 2004, and did not feel that way about John Kerry, or Al Gore or Bill Clinton.

[corplinx]

Could the commies and hippies present please give me a list of words that we are allowed to use to criticize Obama? God forbid I use one that you have poisoned the well with.

[jj]

How do you think crying "racism" at any perceived negative comments will play with them? Their vote counts just as much as yours.

Works better than playing to their delusions.

[jj]

Could the commies and hippies present please give me a list of words that we are allowed to use to criticize Obama? God forbid I use one that you have poisoned the well with.

Well, not being either of those, I therefore won't.

[Drudgewire]

Works better than playing to their delusions.


You're calling a comparison of him to a rich, white socialite racist. There's plenty of delusion to go around this election.

[jj]

You're calling a comparison of him to a rich, white socialite racist. There's plenty of delusion to go around this election.

Good job of trying to escape from context. The best I can say for you is that you are very rude and uncivil.

G'day.

[quarky]

Could the commies and hippies present please give me a list of words that we are allowed to use to criticize Obama? God forbid I use one that you have poisoned the well with.

Obama is a terrible bowler.

[Drudgewire]

Good job of trying to escape from context. The best I can say for you is that you are very rude and uncivil.

G'day.


Don't forget "racist." :rolleyes:

[jj]

Don't forget "racist." :rolleyes:

Oh! Did somebody accuse you of that? I just pointed out you were cheating rhetorically.

[applecorped]

Grumpy old skeptics defending any perceived slight against Obama are no fun.

[Piscivore]

I'd agree with this vote if I had any evidence that anyone has said that Obama doesn't know his place.

I don't know that anyone has, but if they did, I'd take that as racist. Not so much the other two.

[dudalb]

Please cite your convincing, absolute evidence for the accusation of unethical behavior cited above.


Oh come off it.
I was using a little exaggeration , but still some Obama supporters to seem to get upset at criticism of Obama no matter how it is stated.
I think the Spears commerical was a cheap shot, BTW. I think that go after the whole rock star/celeb image of Obama is a good tactic, but that commerical was sloppily handled.

[Drudgewire]

Oh! Did somebody accuse you of that? I just pointed out you were cheating rhetorically.


I was doing no such thing. Your "context" of the commercial is based on pre-conceived biases towards anyone who would dare say anything negative about Obama. You have no idea that's what the message was, but if we don't look below the surface to see the sinister motives that HAVE to be based on and marketed to white fears we must be blinded and/or cheating by not admitting it.

Sorry, that's pure delusion. And I'm seeing it with Obama supporters at levels that would make the most rabid Paulbot proud.

[dudalb]

I am not afraid of Obama becoming President.Hell, I am probably going to vote for him.
But some of the Obama supporters scare the hell out of me.

[Drudgewire]

I am not afraid of Obama becoming President.Hell, I am probably going to vote for him.
But some of the Obama supporters scare the hell out of me.


Yup.

[Brainster]

So, when referring to Obama, are the terms "Hubris," "Presumptive," and "Doesn't know his place" just code words for "Uppity N-----?"

Presumptive is just a description, it's not a judgment. Obama is the presumptive nominee of his party. You mean "presumptuous".

[Foolmewunz]

Could the commies and hippies present please give me a list of words that we are allowed to use to criticize Obama? God forbid I use one that you have poisoned the well with.



Well, as the resident commie/hippie, I'd say you could start with.... Commie and Hippie.

What? We haven't gotten around to calling him a hippie communist, yet? Don't worry, it's only August. And besides, you just did... by addressing not Obama supporters, but commies and hippies who you assume are his supporters. So, yeah, you could start with taking commie and hippie off your "Traditional Greetings When Addressing Democrats" list. That's offensive.

(Not to Obama... I'm taking offense as a hippie commie that you're associating me with a stuffed-suit politico. Puh-lease! )

This hyperbole is just getting rolling, so you have plenty of time to offend people with ad homs. Say, I haven't heard "pinko" in a while. How's about a bit of nostalgia and maybe you could dredge that up? Fellow Traveler has a nice ring to it, too.

And my fellow liberals... please! There aren't enough people calling McCain a neo-cryptic-fascist, yet. Let's get moving! It's August... less than a hundred slandering days left before the general election.

We go through this during every Presidential year! He's a commie! He's a Nazi! Why do you hate America.

And I will reiterate what I've often said, the homogenization of US politics and the two-party system need to go for the swing vote has resulted in the less than admirable result that both parties squarely occupy a tiny slot, just ever so slightly right of center. Yet every forum in America will resound to cries of "Extremism!" from each side.

[corplinx]

Well, as the resident commie/hippie, I'd say you could start with.... Commie and Hippie.

What? We haven't gotten around to calling him a hippie communist, yet? Don't worry, it's only August. And besides, you just did... by addressing not Obama supporters, but commies and hippies who you assume are his supporters. So, yeah, you could start with taking commie and hippie off your "Traditional Greetings When Addressing Democrats" list. That's offensive.

(Not to Obama... I'm taking offense as a hippie commie that you're associating me with a stuffed-suit politico. Puh-lease! )

This hyperbole is just getting rolling, so you have plenty of time to offend people with ad homs. Say, I haven't heard "pinko" in a while. How's about a bit of nostalgia and maybe you could dredge that up? Fellow Traveler has a nice ring to it, too.

And my fellow liberals... please! There aren't enough people calling McCain a neo-cryptic-fascist, yet. Let's get moving! It's August... less than a hundred slandering days left before the general election.

We go through this during every Presidential year! He's a commie! He's a Nazi! Why do you hate America.

And I will reiterate what I've often said, the homogenization of US politics and the two-party system need to go for the swing vote has resulted in the less than admirable result that both parties squarely occupy a tiny slot, just ever so slightly right of center. Yet every forum in America will resound to cries of "Extremism!" from each side.

Too long, didn't read. verbose hippies are for the fail.

[Foolmewunz]

Too long, didn't read. verbose hippies are for the fail.


Oooh! Zing. That'll sure tell me!


ETA: Jerk!

[ProbeX]

Thanks for proving my point about how Obamaniacs just cannot stand ANY criticism of their Lord and Savior.

If what you're calling "criticism" is a response to the McCain camp race baiting by stating in a commercial that Obama doesn't look like past presidents, or comparing him to Tiger Woods, then you are correct.

[Brainster]

If what you're calling "criticism" is a response to the McCain camp race baiting by stating in a commercial that Obama doesn't look like past presidents, or comparing him to Tiger Woods, then you are correct.

You win by having the most comprehensive knowledge of current affairs. I can tell you're really up on this stuff.

:dl:

[chipmunk stew]

What examples can you give that show Obama is any more arrogant than any other presidential hopeful? Details please. Thanks.
I think you misread my post...

[dudalb]

Wow. ProbeX is now seeing insults to Obama by other Obama supporters.
I think the words "Kool Aid Drinking" come into play.

[corplinx]

I think we should definitely take legitimate criticism of Obama's lack of experience or presidential qualities off the table by declaring it a crypto-racist tactic and thereby frighten people out of talking about it.

If I hear someone call him an Uppity Mulatto I will definitely report it here first.

ETA: I am specifically talking about what JJ considers code words which is an arguement he and I have been having for months. Saying "he doesn't know his place" would be pretty dumb considering his skin color. That isn't code for anything, its plain racially insensitive.

[Brainster]

Well, since the poll is currently 50-50, we should start looking at who the racists are according to the yes votes.

Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/29/AR2008072902068.html?nav=hcmodule):

Barack Obama has long been his party's presumptive nominee. Now he's becoming its presumptuous nominee.

Gloria Borger, US News & World Report columnist (http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/2008/07/cnn-reporters-obama-presumptuous.html):

"I do agree with David. And Candy, in her earlier piece, talked about walking the fine line between being this candidate and being presumptuous. And I think that he may just have crossed that, because, you know, it is a tradition. You don't talk about these private conversations. And it's not up to Barack Obama right now to negotiate troop withdrawals. It's up to Barack Obama to be on a fact-finding mission, which is indeed what he has said he was on. "

The Atlantic's Obamaphile Blogger, Andrew Sullivan (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/07/the-hubris-of-o.html#more):

A few things have unsettled me these past couple of weeks about the Obama campaign. It is not the small adjustments to previously-held positions - FISA, the Second Amendment, Iraq. It's a sense that Obama's ample self-regard is lapsing into hubris. The signs of this are pretty trivial on the surface, but they are troubling nonetheless.

Ron Fournier, AP writer (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_campaignplus/20080317/ap_ca/on_deadline_arrogance_2):

Wherever it lies, Barack Obama better watch his step.

He's bordering on arrogance.

The dictionary defines the word as an "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride." Obama may not be offensive or overbearing, but he can be a bit too cocky for his own good.

Ian Leslie, Guardian columnist (http://marbury.typepad.com/marbury/2008/07/top-ten-obama-hubris-moments.html) lists his top ten Obama Hubris Moments, but closes with this:

Having said all that, I should add that I like the guy. Just maybe not quite as much as he does.

David Letterman (http://betsyspage.blogspot.com/2008/07/letterman-takes-on-obama-hubris.html):

PBS Yakker Bonnie Erbe (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/7/30/barack-obamas-arrogant-campaign-risks-a-stunning-loss.html):

Barack Obama's Arrogant Campaign Risks a Stunning Loss

[jj]

I think we should definitely take legitimate criticism of Obama's lack of experience or presidential qualities off the table by declaring it a crypto-racist tactic and thereby frighten people out of talking about it.

If I hear someone call him an Uppity Mulatto I will definitely report it here first.

ETA: I am specifically talking about what JJ considers code words which is an arguement he and I have been having for months. Saying "he doesn't know his place" would be pretty dumb considering his skin color. That isn't code for anything, its plain racially insensitive.



You know those (rule 10's), they just don't have the nature to learn anything complicated.
...
They just can't get the training, they can't learn it.
...
Their type is wild animals, they just can't keep to themselves like they should.
...
Those type don't know their place. They should stay in their place.
...
They'll never get the experience they need to be real citizens, they can't learn enough.
...
All they care about is making more little (rule 10's), they don't have any morals at all
...


Yeah, I moved out of there. duh.

[quarky]

I won't tolerate much criticism of my favorite bands, even though some people can't stand them. It might be like that, to some extent, with Obama's fan base. Hope and change are potent words. Too bad we couldn't handle a third party, or at least fight for one. Nader would have been the one for that. His speech in Salt Lake City yesterday was brilliant. As far as the race card goes, Obama has to take crap from both sides. He's dissapointing some blacker people, like Tavis Smiley. He's half white, which explains some of his offensive behaviour.