Is music therapy woo?

[CaptainManacles]

Is music therapy woo? I've looked around a bit, it certainly smells like woo, and most of the "studies" I see on it don't amount to proving much more then "music sounds nice" or non-confirming results that they simply decided to reject and pretend like they got a success.

[Cuddles]

It depends what claims people make about it. If they claim you can cure cancer by listening to Mozart then yes, very woo. If all they claim is that music can sound nice and help you to relax, there's really no woo involved. It's kind of like aromatherapy really. Something relaxing can help you relax, and as long as you don't claim any more than that there really isn't a problem.

[Lanzy]

According to websites, Music Therapy can:

promote wellness
manage stress
alleviate pain
express feelings
enhance memory
improve communication
promote physical rehabilitation

I'm gonna go with WOO! At least for some of these.

[Alice Shortcake]

"Wellness"! God, I hate that word. :mad:

[moon1969]

Will it gives money to some people. Its all about the money. Is there even any real proof that it works?

[Professor Yaffle]

Some Cochrane reviews on music therapy for a variety of disorders mostly pertaining to mental health - results generally inconclusive due to few studies, small samples, methodological problems etc:

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004381.html

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004517.html

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004025.html

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003477.html

[Moochie]

It depends what claims people make about it. If they claim you can cure cancer by listening to Mozart then yes, very woo. If all they claim is that music can sound nice and help you to relax, there's really no woo involved. It's kind of like aromatherapy really. Something relaxing can help you relax, and as long as you don't claim any more than that there really isn't a problem.

I agree -- almost anything can be "therapeutical" if you feel that it does you any good. It's a much misused and overused word.

Our kitty gives good pet "therapy." :)


M.

[paximperium]

According to websites, Music Therapy can:

promote wellness
manage stress
alleviate pain
express feelings
enhance memory
improve communication
promote physical rehabilitation

I'm gonna go with WOO! At least for some of these.

Actually, while being vague, none of these claims are all that absurd. I'm still very skeptical about its benefits but I don't see too much harm from it...except for possibly wasting money.

What I'm really doubtful about is Art Therapy.

[LibraryLady]

I was under the impression that music therapy (and art therapy) consisted of doing music and art, not just listening or looking. It helps to improve dexterity (playing the guitar, flute, etc), helps people to re-learn how to concentrate, and opens the door to other skills. I know music therapists who work very hard along these lines. It's not just throwing a Mozart cd into the player and having everyone lean back and relax.

[Caz]

I once had Betar music therapy, you have to lie suspended in a sort of spherical structure surrounded by speakers, the brochure says:-

"During the BETAR session,excess bodily stress of all kinds is continually scavenged from the cells, tissues, vessels, organs and bones from the entire body and radiated away as harmless sound waves. BETAR specifically targets internal stress."

It was part of a relaxing girls' spa day, and at the time I was at my "sceptical but wanting to be polite" stage, so I just put up with it. Anyway, it's always good to get a short nap during the day.

Complete bunkum though, if I went again I'd have to tell them. Now that would be a good way of 'scavenging stress out of my bones'. Sheesh!

[paximperium]

I was under the impression that music therapy (and art therapy) consisted of doing music and art, not just listening or looking. It helps to improve dexterity (playing the guitar, flute, etc), helps people to re-learn how to concentrate, and opens the door to other skills. I know music therapists who work very hard along these lines. It's not just throwing a Mozart cd into the player and having everyone lean back and relax.

That's definitely true. Well trained music and art therapists(yes, they do receive training in psychology and even neurology) are useful in getting patient's active and that can definitely help with certain rehab issues. However, all of this can be handled by well trained Physical and Occupational Therapists.

However, I've seen it really overused especially with Art therapy. A demented patient draws a sun and they conclude that they have rage or something.

[paximperium]

I once had Betar music therapy, you have to lie suspended in a sort of spherical structure surrounded by speakers, the brochure says:-

"During the BETAR session,excess bodily stress of all kinds is continually scavenged from the cells, tissues, vessels, organs and bones from the entire body and radiated away as harmless sound waves. BETAR specifically targets internal stress."

It was part of a relaxing girls' spa day, and at the time I was at my "sceptical but wanting to be polite" stage, so I just put up with it. Anyway, it's always good to get a short nap during the day.

Complete bunkum though, if I went again I'd have to tell them. Now that would be a good way of 'scavenging stress out of my bones'. Sheesh!

I believe all of us are talking about different things.

Music and Art Therapy as used by the medical field involves trained therapists, some with actual degrees, to help with treatment and diagnosis of patients. It is mostly used in psychiatric and some physical rehabilitation cases.

What you are talking about is something claiming to be Music Therapy. Its similar to Homeopathy claiming to be medicine.

[leon_heller]

Music has been used in experimental psychology to manipulate subjects' moods. Whether it is effective as a therapeutic technique is another matter.

Leon

[thesyntaxera]

I did a paper once on the music therapy. It focused on the research conducted by a small group in South Africa that was using music therapy to help PTSD diagnosed individuals deal with trauma. Particularly post apartheid trauma.

The group met several times a week and played a variety of instruments that did not require any skill, just a sense of rhythm. They would jam out on these for a while and then have discussions over the issues that concerned them at the end.

The conclusions were anecdotal and based on the responses given by the participants, who all stated that the effects were beneficial to them in some degree, mostly by helping them come to terms as a group with the thing that had happened to them. The jam sessions just provided the emotional outlet.

[CaptainManacles]

It depends what claims people make about it. If they claim you can cure cancer by listening to Mozart then yes, very woo. If all they claim is that music can sound nice and help you to relax, there's really no woo involved. It's kind of like aromatherapy really. Something relaxing can help you relax, and as long as you don't claim any more than that there really isn't a problem.

If you claim you need to be board certified to play people music and help then relax then there certainly is still a problem.

At best it seems to be a field that says you can diagnose and treat mental illness without even the equivalent of a BS in psychology. That's woo any way you cut it. At worst its associated with "treating" autism and other such nonsense, and some of this comes straight out of music therapy journals, so those claims aren't coming from outside mainstream music therapy. Even many of the claims of helping with pain management and physical therapy seem to be based on shoddy studies whose results clearly indicate that music therapy had no effect whatsoever, but they just decided to ignore that and conclude that it works based on anecdote. The whole field has woo written all over it.

[paximperium]

If you claim you need to be board certified to play people music and help then relax then there certainly is still a problem.

At best it seems to be a field that says you can diagnose and treat mental illness without even the equivalent of a BS in psychology. That's woo any way you cut it. At worst its associated with "treating" autism and other such nonsense, and some of this comes straight out of music therapy journals, so those claims aren't coming from outside mainstream music therapy. Even many of the claims of helping with pain management and physical therapy seem to be based on shoddy studies whose results clearly indicate that music therapy had no effect whatsoever, but they just decided to ignore that and conclude that it works based on anecdote. The whole field has woo written all over it.

I don't believe they diagnose illness. But many many Music Therapists have BSc. in Music Therapy.
http://www.musictherapy.org/handbook/schools.html
http://www.musictherapy.org/handbook/career.html#EDUCATION

I do have issues with it because I don't believe they have any real standardization in these degrees and many seem to be based from Music Departments instead of the Psychology Departments...that's a big warning for potential woo. However it looks like they have a Board Certification process which is good.

[Bikewer]

A couple of months ago I read Oliver Sacks' Musicophelia. He's a clinical psychologist, and the book is primarily concerned with the way the brain processes music, and how that processing can go awry.
Still, he mentions a couple of things about "music therapy", pointing out that some patients who are severely debilitated by stroke or brain injury will still respond to music. Also, people who are suffering from aphasia (inability to speak) may yet be able to sing....
Likewise, people with severe stuttering can frequently sing.

[Professor Yaffle]

The Cochrane review on autistic spectrum disorders said that it was "encouragingg" though the data was limited to 3 small studies with limited applicability to clinical practice, and that:


When applying the results of this review to practice, it is important to note that the application of music therapy requires specialised academic and clinical training.

[CaptainManacles]

I don't believe they diagnose illness.

Okay, well, you already claimed they "helped" diagnose illness.

But many many Music Therapists have BSc. in Music Therapy.

How is that different from what I said? I hardly see how it matters much if woo practitioners get woo degrees by taking woo classes and get woo certification from a bunch of woo-woo people on a woo board.

[Professor Yaffle]

Here are some examples of Music Therapy courses in the UK where they are usually postgraduate and recognised as health professionals by the NHS

http://www.qmu.ac.uk/courses/PGCourse.cfm?c_id=189

http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/prospectus/pgft2008/music_therapy.html

http://www.rwcmd.ac.uk/postgraduate_courses/music_therapy.aspx

http://courses.uwe.ac.uk/b99942/2008

From the looks of it, music therapy done by properly qualified people is no more or less woo than most other areas of therapy.

[CaptainManacles]

Here are some examples of Music Therapy courses in the UK where they are usually postgraduate and recognised as health professionals by the NHS

http://www.qmu.ac.uk/courses/PGCourse.cfm?c_id=189

http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/prospectus/pgft2008/music_therapy.html

http://www.rwcmd.ac.uk/postgraduate_courses/music_therapy.aspx

http://courses.uwe.ac.uk/b99942/2008

From the looks of it, music therapy done by properly qualified people is no more or less woo than most other areas of therapy.

Again, since when does having classes or being recognized by the NHS show the credibility of a field? And if they're usually post-graduate that means they are often under-graduate, in a degree that is half just music classes. It's like giving a music teacher a minor in psychology and sending her off to cure autism.

[Professor Yaffle]

Again, since when does having classes or being recognized by the NHS show the credibility of a field? And if they're usually post-graduate that means they are often under-graduate, in a degree that is half just music classes. It's like giving a music teacher a minor in psychology and sending her off to cure autism.

I only said "usually postgraduate" because I was only able to find masters courses, but obviously couldn't rule out that the existence of undergraduate courses without a more exhaustive search. I don't believe anything other than postgraduate courses are recognised by the NHS.

You seem to be ignoring the Cochrane reviews I posted which stated that the research was encouraging with regards to autism (tho no legitimate music therapist would claim to cure it) and positive with regards to schizophrenia. The field obviously lacks a decent amount of good quality research and there are people who are making claims for it (some other form of music therapy I believe) which are completely out of what it might do, but that doesn't mean the whole field is woo.

I can't comment on the content of the courses other than the outline I posted as I haven't done the course, but on the face of it, it doesn't seem too dissimilar to many other forms of therapy (and there are probably some with even less claim to efficacy).

[CaptainManacles]

I only said "usually postgraduate" because I was only able to find masters courses, but obviously couldn't rule out that the existence of undergraduate courses without a more exhaustive search. I don't believe anything other than postgraduate courses are recognised by the NHS.

Well, I know for a fact you can be certified in music therapy with a bachelors in the US. And what the NHS does and does not recognize is hardly meaningful anymore.

You seem to be ignoring the Cochrane reviews I posted which stated that the research was encouraging with regards to autism

No, I didn't ignore the post where you said it was limited to 3 small studies with limited applicability.

and positive with regards to schizophrenia.

Since you didn't post that, no, I didn't ignore it.

The field obviously lacks a decent amount of good quality research and there are people who are making claims for it (some other form of music therapy I believe) which are completely out of what it might do, but that doesn't mean the whole field is woo.

No evidence to support it, little training required, falsified conclusions from studies, tends to point more to woo then legitimacy.

[Professor Yaffle]

I did post the schizophrenia one - 3rd reference down. From the abstract:


Music therapy as an addition to standard care helps people with schizophrenia to improve their global state and may also improve mental state and functioning if a sufficient number of music therapy sessions are provided. Further research should address the dose-effect relationship and the long-term effects of music therapy.


I'll admit it is not definitive evidence, but it indicates that it might have a valid application in this area.

[paximperium]

No evidence to support it, little training required, falsified conclusions from studies, tends to point more to woo then legitimacy.
This entire statement is patently false and you know it. Did you do so consciously or are you blinded by your pre-judgement?
1)There is evidence to support it. See Cochrane Review. Data is poor but that is early evidence. I await more data before making judgments.
2)A BSc. in Music Therapy from decent schools is "little training required"? Please define "enough training." Is it a Masters? What about a PhD.? Please do tell.
3)Falsified conclusions from studies? Please present these falsified studies you are claiming.

You have clearly already judged Music Therapy.

[juryjone]

The woo is out there. I have a friend who was not reacting well to his blood-pressure medicine. So he went to a naturopath who "prescribed" music therapy. I wrote him an email suggesting that he look into it more about a month ago, and have not heard from him at all since then.

I have not heard whether the music therapist is "licensed" - obviously it doesn't seem to matter to my friend - but regulating blood pressure is far beyond the uses outlined in the Cochrane review.

[Perpetual Seeker]

I have no idea. My university has a music therapy major in its music school, and I even know a few who are taking the major. By in large, it is seen as a joke major.

I can see how music might help for relaxation, but that's as far as I would take it.

[autumn1971]

I believe all of us are talking about different things.

Music and Art Therapy as used by the medical field involves trained therapists, some with actual degrees, to help with treatment and diagnosis of patients. It is mostly used in psychiatric and some physical rehabilitation cases.

What you are talking about is something claiming to be Music Therapy. Its similar to Homeopathy claiming to be medicine.
So it's like psychiatry claiming to be scientific?

[paximperium]

So it's like psychiatry claiming to be scientific?

Psychiatry is scientific.

[CaptainManacles]

I did post the schizophrenia one - 3rd reference down. From the abstract:

I'll admit it is not definitive evidence, but it indicates that it might have a valid application in this area.

Oh yes, the one where you said

results generally inconclusive due to few studies, small samples, methodological problems etc

Which is vastly different from what you claimed you posted.

[CaptainManacles]

There is evidence to support it. See Cochrane Review. Data is poor but that is early evidence. I await more data before making judgments.

They have poor data for every woo field. The studies that I have looked at the data is more then just "poor" it is non-existent.

A BSc. in Music Therapy from decent schools is "little training required"?

What makes you think it has to be from a decent school? And yes, it is little training required, I've already presented my reasons why, I'm not going to go over them again just because you like ignoring reality.

Falsified conclusions from studies? Please present these falsified studies you are claiming.

Falsified conclusions aren't the same as falsified studies. They are out there if you care to find them, you obviously don't, I don't really feel the need to spend the time to convince someone who obviously won't be and has made up his mind already.

You have clearly already judged Music Therapy.

Pot kettle black

[Professor Yaffle]

Oh yes, the one where you said



Which is vastly different from what you claimed you posted.

That was my summary of the 4 cochrane reviews I posted. I assumed anyone interested would actually have at least read the abstracts of each of them before commenting on them. For the record, 2 showed no evidence for use, 1 showed encouraging evidence (autism) and one was clearly positive (schizophrenia). But all were based on few, pretty small studies, so a lot of further work would need to be done before there is anything more definitive.

Not enough to say it is definitely effective, but enough to do further work and not dismiss the whole field (done properly by well qualified people) as total woo.

[Professor Yaffle]

Falsified conclusions aren't the same as falsified studies. They are out there if you care to find them, you obviously don't, I don't really feel the need to spend the time to convince someone who obviously won't be and has made up his mind already.


At least point us to the falsified conclusions to studiesyou have found. I would be very interested in reading them.

[CaptainManacles]

Kim, S. J. (2005). The Effects of Music on Pain Perception of Stroke Patients During Upper Extremity Joint Exercises. Journal of Music Therapy. 42(1) 81-92.

[Professor Yaffle]

And what were the conclusions and how were they "falsified"? I only have access to the abstract. It looks like no significant effect on pain measures were found, but there was some expression of positive affect in video analysis. i would have to see how the video was analysed and what their conclusions on this actually were before i would count it as falsified; which is a very strange word to use about conclusions rather than results - I would tend to say they reached unjustified conclusions. And even so, unless you show that this is common in the field, it doesn't really reflect on the field as a whole, just those particular researchers themselves.

[Jeff Corey]

A couple of months ago I read Oliver Sacks' Musicophelia. He's a clinical psychologist...

Sachs is a M.D. (Oxford) and Professor of Clinical Neurology and Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia.

[paximperium]

They have poor data for every woo field. The studies that I have looked at the data is more then just "poor" it is non-existent.
Oh? What studies are those? Please do tell, I'm suppose to take your word for it?

What makes you think it has to be from a decent school? And yes, it is little training required, I've already presented my reasons why, I'm not going to go over them again just because you like ignoring reality.
No you haven't presented anything at all, just your dogma and insinuations...in other words, crap.

So here are a few small insignificant not "decent" schools:
University of Alabama
Arizona State University
Cal State Northridge
Colorado State University
Florida State University
University of Miami
University of Georgia
University of Iowa
University of Kansas
Michigan State University
University of Minnesota
New York University
Drexel University
Temple University
West Texas A&M University

Hey, granted many programs are in pretty crappy schools but that doesn't support your claim now does it?

Falsified conclusions aren't the same as falsified studies.
Snort...please point out in the paper your provided what is false?


They are out there if you care to find them, you obviously don't, I don't really feel the need to spend the time to convince someone who obviously won't be and has made up his mind already.
What a cop out. You made some gradiouse claim and now run away chickening out when called to provide evidence.

I don't have the inclination to do your homework.


Pot kettle black
I've already stated that I have doubts into the validity of Music Therapy but your dogmatic belief is blinding you to your own position. I have not accepted Music Therapy as valid and am open to new evidence that will change my mind one direction or the other. In fact I'm leaning towards the irrelevance of Music Therapy.

You have wholeheartedly rejected it and called it fraudulent. Since you made an active claim, you have to prove it.

PS: Isn't it interesting that you piss off and alienate people who are actually on your side? You are almost as good as CFLarsen at this, I wonder how effective your arguments are against believers.

[paximperium]

The Effects of Music on Pain Perception of Stroke Patients during Upper Extremity Joint Exercises

Soo Ji Kim, MME, MT-BC1 and Iljoo Koh, MME, MT-BC2
1. University of Kansas, 2. Private Practice, Seoul, Korea

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of music therapy on pain perception of stroke patients during upper extremity joint exercises.

Ten stroke patients (1 male and 9 females) ranging in age from 61 to 73 participated in the study. Music conditions used in the study consisted of: (a) song, (b) karaoke accompaniment (same music to condition A except singers' voices), and (c) no music. Exercise movements in this study included hand, wrist, and shoulder joints. During the 8-week period music therapy sessions, subjects repeated 3 conditions according to the randomized orders and subjects rated their perceived pain on a scale immediately after each condition.

The General Linear Model (GLM) Repeated Measures ANOVA revealed that there were no significant differences in pain rating across the three music conditions. However, positive affects and verbal responses, while performing upper extremity exercises with both music and karaoke accompaniment music, were observed using video observations.
Man, karaoke for therapy, sweet.

Let me see. They basically concluded that music therapy does not work for pain BUT Physical Therapy does work...amazingly "fraudulent" isn't it.

[Professor Yaffle]

And now that I look at it, that study isn't even a study of music therapy per se. It is a study of the effects of listening to music on pain perception when added to physical exercise. This is not music therapy as practiced in the UK - and is not the sort of music therapy that was evaluated in the cochrane reviews I linked to. As i have read about it, it seems to be applied primarily to people with communication difficulties through learning disability, brain damage, stroke,mental health problems etc and it is about participation in music usually using an improvisation model (Nordoff Robbins approach).

[paximperium]

And now that I look at it, that study isn't even a study of music therapy per se. It is a study of the effects of listening to music on pain perception when added to physical exercise. This is not music therapy as practiced in the UK - and is not the sort of music therapy that was evaluated in the cochrane reviews I linked to. As i have read about it, it seems to be applied primarily to people with communication difficulties through learning disability, brain damage, stroke,mental health problems etc and it is about participation in music usually using an improvisation model (Nordoff Robbins approach).

Well, it would really nice to actually have the paper.

I don't know what impairment these patient's had.
Was it purely verbal, motor, sensory or perhaps cognition?
Would they even be able to grade using a pain scale?
What are their baseline and AODL?
How exactly did they perform their statistical calculations?

Well with 10 patients, this pilot study has only as much applicability as...a pilot study, nothing more or less. I really doubt they powered the study for an actual end result and this is more a case series than an actual pilot.

I see this all the time with papers done by people with little to no clinical research background.

[Professor Yaffle]

I should have access to this journal from work - so anyone that wants to read it, PM me with your e-mail address and I will send you a copy tomorrow.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I find Cannibal Corpse to be very therapeutic.





Actually, I knew a person who was going to study music therapy in college along with her other major.

From what she said, it was about teaching people music to help them express emotions, relax, and have a constructive outlet, as many people with psychiatric problems do not have one.

From the FAQ:

What is music therapy?
Music Therapy is the clinical and evidence-based use of music interventions to accomplish individualized goals within a therapeutic relationship by a credentialed professional who has completed an approved music therapy program. (American Music Therapy Association definition, 2005)

Linky. (http://www.musictherapy.org/faqs.html)

So at least they want to be evidence-based :p .

I can't really say for sure whether I think it is complete bunk or not. I haven't seen any evidence on its effectiveness, so I am rather agnostic right now.

[CaptainManacles]

Hey, granted many programs are in pretty crappy schools but that doesn't support your claim now does it?

Actually, it does, since my claim was that some programs were in pretty crappy schools. I'm not going to spend all day arguing with someone who is clearly not interested in the truth and is just going to wear me down by taking things out of context, making ridiculous arguments, and outright putting words in my mouth.

You have wholeheartedly rejected it and called it fraudulent.

No I didn't.

PS: Isn't it interesting that you piss off and alienate people who are actually on your side? You are almost as good as CFLarsen at this, I wonder how effective your arguments are against believers.

People who are not interested in honest debate are not on my side.

[CaptainManacles]

And now that I look at it, that study isn't even a study of music therapy per se.

That's funny, I thought it was from the journal of music therapy. *eyeroll* really, if these are the arguments you are making, you guys are clearly not actually interested in the truth.

[paximperium]

People who are not interested in honest debate are not on my side.

That's funny, I thought it was from the journal of music therapy. *eyeroll* really, if these are the arguments you are making, you guys are clearly not actually interested in the truth.
So says the holy priest of skepticism. You're a waste of time. You're the classic "skeptic" that woo-worshipers claim are close-minded pricks. You give the rest of us a bad name.

Come back when you actually know how to read a scientific paper, know hoe to debate and know what the hell you're talking about.